Expecting the man to pay is abusing outdated gender norms

hopeidontforget2021 · 2024-12-27T23:08:25+00:00

The idea that gender roles ever ended was fantasy. Especially when it comes to romance, dispose of that idea.

LuckyKirito · 2024-12-28T06:03:30+00:00

As my female friend once told: “No I’m not a sexist, I just believe that the one who invites is the one who pays. When I invite somebody, I pay for them. The thing is, I never invite guys on dates. giggling”

Hi-Road · 2024-12-27T19:08:14+00:00

Be financially celibate. Your wallet your choice

Technical_End9162 · 2024-12-27T19:06:54+00:00

The problem was never that women wanted men to pay on dates

The problem arises when they don’t give anything back and men are exploited. I’m not talking about sex or intimacy, because you’re not supposed to pay for those things when dating for a relationship.

How about you as a woman suggest a place and pay for the next date? How about you buy him a t shirt or something? Or a sweatshirt? Or maybe help him some other way that is of similar value? Anything really. Just show that you’re investing in him and that you aren’t just selfish and exploitative.

NoDanaOnlyZuuI · 2024-12-27T22:18:33+00:00

Another day, another “men shouldn’t pay” post

Use your words. Before the date be clear you’re each paying for own bill. The end.

If she’s down with that, good.

If she’s not, also good - cancel the date and save the time and energy.

Infamous_Anonyman · 2024-12-28T00:02:10+00:00

I see where you're going at.

I have created my own method of dealing with this issue.

1# I NEVER take a woman out for dinner on the first couple of dates. If a woman suggest i take her out for food and drinks on the first date, i'm out. Here in Europe regular eating out is an easy 100+ euro's, depending on the restaurant. I'm not spending 100+ euro's on someone i don't know.

2# I only do cheap dates as first dates. Couple of drinks and rounds of pool/snooker. Cheap, fun activity and you can have a nice chat.

There are also dates that require less money, like walking in the park, sit at a bench at nice location where you bring stuff you bought at the supermarket or you can cook at your/her place. Or even as simple as getting a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. Those are investmens i'll make to date a woman.

But i do agree, it's an outdated norm that i feel some women like to abuse. I have known women that date men just go eat free meals. Disgusting behaviour. I have also met women that only want to go to expensive restaurant and obviously as the first date, the man has to pay right?🤣 fuck outta here.

G4M35 · 2024-12-27T17:04:40+00:00

I am a guy, and I have to say that you're not wrong.

Alas, we all have agency, so we all have choices.

I am now older and happily married, and when I was young, single, and broke I struggled with this same very issue.

Later in life, when I was divorced and not that broke anymore, after a while I made the conscious decision to always pay for all the dating activities as long as it was FWBs, ONSs, or casual dating; and while it was somewhat expensive at the onset, it was a much better deal in the long run when compared to traditional dating.

And that's why I believe that the future of dating as we know it today is "sugaring". With "sugaring" everyone wins!

Regardless of how you feel about this issue, about OP's post, or my comment, we all need to realize that money is a very important aspect of dating; it's just that people don't want to talk about it, which makes the situation even worse.

YMMV

Combatenjoyer23 · 2024-12-27T17:13:26+00:00

The funniest part about this is the attempted gaslighting. "Oh you don't want to pay for the bill, I didn't realize you were in your feminine energy era!" Or "oh you're not paying the bill, I didn't realize that this was just a meeting between friends, but now I understand!"

It's not even the gaslighting itself that I find offensive. It's the fact that some women actually think it could possibly work

KayRay1994 · 2024-12-27T17:11:18+00:00

The obsession dating subs and spaces have with who pays for the date is bizarre to me. I promise you, nobody thinks about this to such a great extent - tbh if you’re this concerned about who pays on the first date you’re probably not ready to date, not for financial reasons, but because you keep insisting on turning a minuscule talking point into a cultural talking point

Eyoshias · 2024-12-28T02:15:39+00:00

When it comes to unfair gender norms for men everyone suddenly forgets that they were born from extremely unfavorable circumstances for women too. Grandpa probably paid for grandmas dinner because she wasn't legally allowed to own land or vote and his role was as a provider. All of a sudden this all goes out the window because "it's mostly guys who enjoy doing it lol" as if it wasnt built on hundreds of years of inequality. It's especially funny when they hit you with "if you don't like it just don't participate" as if there is an endless sea of high income mentally stable egalitarian women out there that you just have been ignoring your entire life.

toasterchild · 2024-12-27T17:06:29+00:00

This isn't a men against women issue though, some men really like it and some women hate it. It's just a traditional practice some people hold on to and some don't. I'm in favor of it going away but it's not being held on to by only women. They're are plenty of men out there who get completely emasculated when the woman offers to pay her portion or picks up the second date.

Change is hard and getting there often requires conversations. Women aren't the enemies you want them to be, many agree with you.

ButternutCheesesteak · 2024-12-27T17:46:21+00:00

I think in an ideal world this makes sense, but women have far more options than men so they can have higher standards. If you're an average man and you're not willing to pay for your date's meal, don't be surprised if you struggle finding a girlfriend. That's just the reality of it.

LillthOfBabylon · 2024-12-27T17:29:39+00:00

JUST DONT. Omg, just date women who are fine going 50/50. This is why I keep thinking that the real problem is that the girls that guys here actually want refuse to do 50-50.

Men should not have their ability to find love severely limited

Shut up and pay. What is more important, not paying for a woman or having more options?

Lift_and_Lurk · 2024-12-27T17:35:10+00:00

I think Its interesting to hear this take while at the same time my wife’s cousin (currently in college) is having a dude offering and trying to fly her out to meet him and his friends so she can go with him to the bowl game and watch with him and stay at the Air Bnb that him and his fraternity friends are renting. And she keeps saying no, they are barely even in the talking stage.

I never met the guy, don’t know the young man. But I’m assuming he’s of means and popularity and I’m guessing good looking enough that the two were talking before winter break hit.

But on PPD it’s the women expecting men to pay that’s keeping the “cultural norms” on men and oppressing them?

Just entertaining to see the contrasts is all.

SuckingMuffin · 2024-12-27T17:05:54+00:00

Your assertions are based on the assumption of fairness.

This isn't correct.

In reality, women are able to press this advantage, ensuring that they get the best of both worlds at the expense of men.

Life isn't fair.

In dating, men are at a substantial disadvantage for a lot of reasons. This is one of many. This also won't change.

Women can demand modern gender norm benefits while also demanding the benefits of traditional gender norms while pushing the negatives off onto men.

There's also nothing that'll stop them from doing this.

You can leave women alone if you want, but there are still millions upon millions of men that'll submit to it.

As a rule of thumb, there will never be a social change between the genders that results in a negative for women.

Tricky_Dog1465 · 2024-12-27T19:49:13+00:00

I'm married now, but most men got upset when I paid my own way. It seemed to me that if you take out them paying they can't go for well I paid now you have to give me sex. The fuck I do, I pay for myself.

Life-Mud-4203 · 2024-12-27T17:06:16+00:00

Honestly, i used to think that way, too. Then I realized that every time i guy didn't like me much to begin with, he would happily garbage up the opportunity for me to split the bill. On the other hand, the guys who paid for me showed me through other ways that they genuinely liked me. I've seen the guys who split the bill, pay for other girls, whom they chased like crazy later on. So 'does he pay for the first date' is actually a way to find out how much a guy likes you. Having said that, yes , once you all actually start dating and start going on multiple dates, split everything or take turns to pay for stuff. Now, I believe if a guy goes out with a group of females, even if 1 of them is his gf, he shouldn't have to pay for all of them. That's exploitation.

Any-Remove-4032 · 2024-12-27T21:33:24+00:00

"Cultural abuse" Men can say no 🤣

If she walks and finds a man who is willing to pay, how is that her fault? If she wants to split the bill, she'll offer. And if no, then find a woman who will. And if you can't, what do you want anyone to do about it?

Blame the men willing to pay for setting the norm, not the woman for accepting the offer.

I paid for my dates because I believe the one who invites should pay. That's my belief. If it isn't yours, that's fine, don't offer to pay/agree before the date. If my choice sets an unfair standard for those who can't afford it, how is that any different from enjoying any luxury that requires money that someone else can't afford?

Dating/relationships are a luxury, simple as that. Blame men, not women.

BluePillUprising · 2024-12-27T17:17:29+00:00

I know how to avoid ever having this “who pays for the date” problem.

Don’t go out to dinner with strangers you met on the internet and intend to have sex with.

Hook up with people you met at parties instead. Way more fun, less awkward and saves a bunch of money.

My_House_on_Mars · 2024-12-27T19:09:45+00:00

You shouldn't be spending that much money anyway. Just go for beers or coffee.

I understand there's an expectation of the man paying on a first date, I don't like it either believe me. Hopefully things will change eventually. I always insist on paying btw or maybe I let them pay the first date and they I pay for second date

xxTheMagicBulleT · 2024-12-27T20:53:42+00:00

Expecting men to pay right away is the same thing men expecting women to give out on the first date.

Its expecting the most while giving the least possible.

Why you should never take those men or women seriously ever.

The whole "gentleman" play book is stupid when there is no push for the "lady" playbook in kind.

And people want relationship privileges in the talking stages. They just want all the privileges without having to put in any investment.

And its just a normal outlook each thing that becomes normal on one side to pull back value. Its normal that the other side pulls back value in some way too.

Efforts and willingness to investment back and forth is how relationships work.

You can say I demand i demand I demand. But no one likes to feel used so. Why would a person for all the demands not just pick someone willing to reciprocate the same wants and needs and Efforts.

Thats the thing how many people push them self out of the long-term relationship marketplace.

Many people can get sex or short few months relationship where you basically don't build up anything and in limbo and it's more about sex then anything else. What mostly is the selfish relationships are like.

But takes a whole different outlook on things to be one of those old people in the park that been 30+ years together.

But people look at un functional relationship. From stars from reality TV. From single moms. Or other models. That more gonna from failed relationship to failed relationship.

Almost no people look at or talk to people that actually have what you want. Those old couples at the park that been true it all in the 30 years together.

People keep admire failures. Cause they have money they have fame. They are popular. But most off them it's rare if they even together for 5 years. And if you have all the money in the world what troubles can you realy have.

Look at normal people that did get true true hardship. True good true bad. True poor times. To well off times true sickness and in health. Where things where not just easy all the time. Where a broken down car. Or other set back would have big financial problems for a while. Basically life happens. And those people that overcome it all but often got out even stronger together. That the people people should admire.

Not the shallow the needy the give me shit cause of the gender I'm born as.

Gender equality you get what you give and you give what you get.

And you get the privileges based on your level of relationship you have.

So based on merit and effort on both sides. People don't like it. Then pff there is plenty I also don't like but are pushed on me so deal with it like the adults you claim to be.

So fairness you get what you give and you give what you get. Its best and fair and safest for all parties to gain based on merits and investment.

So no paying for dates. No assumption of getting some after the first date. Getting to know each other in a natural organic way without a deeper burden. So no one is able to use the other one. And its truly about getting to know each other.

ThatBitchA · 2024-12-27T17:11:34+00:00

All the men I've ever been on a date with have offered to pay.

It's an expectation they set.

If you have an issue with men paying, take it up with men.

EricAllonde · 2024-12-27T23:28:52+00:00

I agree.

The dating market is filled with over-entitled women who always have their hand out, demanding that men pay for them. It's better to be alone than with that sort of woman.

The solution is very modest first, second and third dates. Coffee, a (single) drink, a walk in the park, a movie - stuff like that.

If she's interested in you, she'll go on any type of date to spend time with you.

If she's not into you, just the idea of you spending money on her, then she'll complain and bail out. Congratulations, your screening process worked.

KittyCatKnight · 2024-12-27T17:25:14+00:00

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barry1988 · 2024-12-27T17:23:11+00:00

I also think women would pay for men they are attracted to and if they aren't attracted to them they won't pay. Have seen this a dozen times

SeaworthinessSea2407 · 2024-12-27T17:39:54+00:00

Yeah and this is why you do cheap things like coffee for the first date and move on if a woman scoffs at that. Or just ask to go dutch and reject the women who scoff at that

No-Calligrapher-3630 · 2024-12-27T18:27:09+00:00

I think it should depend on your position on gender norms. If you are a person whose values reflect that a man should be the provider and the woman should be the care or maintainer. Then it makes sense that you reflect those values and pay for the date. If you want a relationship where it's more equal contributions and you have I don't know more equal say or whatever then yeah you shouldn't be expecting somebody to pay.

My position also is if you are the type of person who wants to date to marry so that the woman is being taken care of when you are the provider, and the woman has to maintain other fights in her life I can't imagine why you would be then taking loads of women out on dates. I would imagine you'd be most elective to find a woman that you want to then make your wife.

No_Yogurt_4602 · 2024-12-27T20:01:37+00:00

my preference is each person paying for themselves, maybe alternating on rounds of drinks, etc, but tbh i've meet more than a few guys who get big feelings about you not letting them pay so atp if they want to i don't fight it

rejected-again · 2024-12-27T20:59:50+00:00

Have you considered not paying for her meal?

BobtheArcher2018 · 2024-12-27T22:31:31+00:00

It may be an outdated norm, but you have to accept that in terms of individual motivation within an environment where such a norm persists, attitudes and beliefs vary. Some women like it for its filter function--does he care enough to try or just want sex as fast and cheap as possible--rather than because they want to extract resources. Many men who can easily pay like to do so because it provides them with an advantage, etc.

So the question is how such norms change, and why this one is taking a long time to change. I'm not sure I have those answers, or anyone does. But in 2024, culture operates differently than in say 1824. For good or bad, the institutions capable of exerting a top down force across the entire population to constrain biology based instincts are much weaker. So biological factors are going to find a way to manifest somewhere in the system. Women have greater sexual leverage and costs. In a system of individual negotiation, this will manifest in different ways and places, including who pays.

Podlubnyi · 2024-12-28T00:15:41+00:00

The solution is simply to go for a coffee on a first date. No arguments over who pays, and if it's not going well you have an easy excuse to leave after 10 minutes. If she insists on going to an expensive restaurant, then you dodged a bullet.

Mountain_Sand3135 · 2024-12-28T00:20:29+00:00

i cant see this thought getting any traction...its something women enjoy having and will never see it any other way..

Yes i know <.01% ask men out and pay (if that) ...we are talking the majority (strong one at that) are traditional setups.

XOTrashKitten · 2024-12-28T06:32:09+00:00

I mean, just don't date women who expect men to pay, plenty of women go 50 50 now, date those, keep in mind tho hot girls have plenty of options so if they have to pick between the guy who pays and the guy who doesn't guess who'll they pick? Just don't whine like some men that the kind of women they want expect the guy to pay, it's all your choice, stick to your values, as said plenty of women go 50 50 these days anyways

Traditional_Lab1192 · 2024-12-29T23:53:18+00:00

Women didn’t create this norm. I have offered to pay on dates and the men have either refused or seemed insulted that I would offer such a thing.

Queen_Maxima · 2024-12-30T09:44:11+00:00

My husband expects for the man to pay and does so, even tho i wanted to split on our first date. He was absolutely offended by my suggestion i'd pay half.

How does that fit into your point? He is very much about gender roles, according to him paying for dates shows the woman and her family that you are able to financially take care of her.

Does that mean he is self destructive?

FreitasAlan · 2024-12-27T17:04:45+00:00

Gender norms are not going anywhere. For both men and women. You can change culture to get people angry about it and have very low fertility rates. But the incentives are not going anywhere so the norms are not going anywhere.

Perfect-Resist5478 · 2024-12-27T20:10:20+00:00

If you don’t want to pay for a date, don’t. There are plenty of women who go 50/50 or even pay the whole way themselves. No one is forcing you to date someone who expects you to pay. It might shrink your viable dating pool, but if the goal is to find the best person for you as opposed to being attractive to the most people possible, this helps narrow that field

StrugglingSoprano · 2024-12-28T10:22:20+00:00

It’s an unfair situation but it’s also an issue of supply and demand.

Generally speaking, men want to date women more than vice versa. If new social norms make dinner dates 50/50, there will be even less women in the dating pool which is already oversaturated with men.

I’d personally be fine with a more egalitarian model of dating, but societal changes come with consequences. It’s up to society to decide whether the change is worth it.

temapone11 · 2024-12-27T17:52:38+00:00

Well, 50 years ago women would go on less dates than men would, so men didn't have a problem paying all the time.

Personally money has never been an issue because I have my priorities straight but when it comes to dating, I have a tier system for women.

Almost 99.9% of women will be taken to a cheap and cozy bar where a beer costs 4-5 euro, so a first date is never an issue. I explicitly tell them that the first round is on me. Now depending how things go, I might move to another better bar and spend a bit more. That happens in rare cases though.

Girls who I know are not promiscuous and I am sure about it, get a much better treatment because I take them seriously from the start.

My point is men are adapting to invest less on women who are not worth it and/or just looking for a meal

Equal_Connect · 2024-12-27T21:00:55+00:00

Tbh i actually feel like paying for the date is a flex more than anything. I could probably get away with women paying half but i genuinely want to pay 100% to show that i have gentlemen traditional traits. If i was to ever invite a woman to my house for dinner, id wear a white tie dress code with a top hat and have the most elegant dining table set up.

ibookmarkeverything · 2024-12-28T09:48:09+00:00

There is nothing outdated about the gender role that makes it so that men must pay. It makes sense and is perfectly reasonable. The problem is that modern men keep failing the shit test that is feminist ideals, and so we lower our standards to make women feel less "oppressed" for doing what we like them to do while they continue to hold us to all the same standards that have existed throughout history that they like and appreciate very much.

Your focus is on the wrong thing, and your tit-for-tat desire to force artificial equality via breaking down the innate roles of the sexes will only result in further damaging the dating market and society as a whole.

CatchPhraze · 2024-12-27T19:37:02+00:00

Just date people with similar values then you. It's nonsense to say people have to change their preferences to cater to others.

Kat_ri · 2024-12-28T01:27:51+00:00

If you're asking random woman out for a date you should expect to pay. You're already interested but she doesn't know you or care about you. It's outdated but there is a reason it's there.

ThisTimeForRealYo · 2024-12-28T09:36:06+00:00

Whoever asks the othet one out on the date should pay for it. Usually that’s the man. Then, if she’s a good one, she will ask you out on a date.

Sandjota · 2024-12-28T02:08:56+00:00

You sound pathetic. If you can't afford a few dates, just refrain from dating in general and work towards bettering yourself and your financial situation.

Newsflash. Women have the leverage in the dating marketplace. They get far more matches than men do and have a wider selection of prospective partners than us guys. Paying or not paying for dates isn't going to change that. It is only going turn you off from conservative women (which are more preferable in my opinion) and even get you turned down from libs. Why would they go on a 2nd date with you when they can go on a date with someone willing to provide for them?

waffleznstuff30 · 2024-12-27T18:50:55+00:00

Most dates I've been on they offered to pay?

I go in expecting 50/50 usually especially for a first date? Usually they offer to cover.

ExcitementLow4699 · 2024-12-27T21:29:39+00:00

Was it “abusing gender norms” if men wanted to pay for dates with me? Dates that they thought of and invited me on, knowing how much they cost?

If you can’t afford a $200 dinner as a first date, just do something that’s cheap or free. If a woman doesn’t want to do that, that’s on her. She’s probably not that interested in you as a person.

2024-12-27T22:16:32+00:00

If you pay as the man, then you’re abusing them to your benefit. Women will subconsciously perceive you as a better mating candidate if you do this even if consciously they don’t want to contribute to a gendered dynamic.

AsparagusThis7044 · 2024-12-27T22:34:32+00:00

Sexually and romantically men are second-class citizens.

TidyMess24 · 2024-12-28T09:21:47+00:00

The financial aspect is really only limiting if the man lacks ingenuity and creativity in coming up with date ideas. There are plenty of fabulous dates which can be pulled off for under 10 and under 20 dollars.

twilightlatte · 2024-12-28T09:46:57+00:00

There are plenty of men who do not feel this way. Lol. This is hilarious

Eezay · 2024-12-28T10:53:31+00:00

Don't take women on expensive first dates, it's pretentious and boring.
Weed out women that give gold-digger-vibes, which is easy, if you really try.
Be financially literate so you can pay 20$ for a coffee date without having an existential crisis.

Artistic_Speech_1965 · 2024-12-28T11:20:06+00:00

Well not all women are like that. And some women will start to pay after the second or third date. So just find your person I guess ?

SayuriKitsune · 2024-12-28T11:48:09+00:00

I dont expect him to pay, but its a nice gesture if it happens. Also to me a first date could be something simple as a coffee date, no big "investment" date. To me a dinner is too formal for a first date.

Adding that if I had a great time I myself offer to pay to treat that person.

Routine-Present-3676 · 2024-12-28T17:46:55+00:00

Then don't pay. It's literally that easy. You will not be dating a woman that expects a man to pay, but you will also be that much closer to finding a woman with the same values as you.

Edited to add: please note you will need to act like a "traditional" man if you expect to be dating a "traditional" woman.

RunAgreeable7905 · 2024-12-29T08:36:52+00:00

If I don't know him well enough to regard that money as worth risking I just don't accept the invitation to a date.

There will be a lot fewer dates if more women don't accept dates with men who haven't yet exhibited a possibility they worth the price of a place of spaghetti. Yes that would save you money. Is it what you want?

SimpleStart2395 · 2024-12-27T19:47:28+00:00

All this talk is such blah blah blah.

Women and men aren’t equal.

Men should pay for women.

Women should behave and not take advantage of that.

Men need to be smart enough to sniff out bs on the first date, so don’t be a pushover and just tell her she owes her part of the bill if you get the sense shes taking you for a ride.

There’s a reason men should date women younger than them due in part to these expectations of needing to be able to read women who supposedly are more “mature” and use that “maturity” to manipulate and take them for a ride.

Make a decision, stand firm and move on.

I don’t care what the woke crowd thinks. Above is what has worked well for me.

InitialPaths989 · 2024-12-27T18:43:21+00:00

If you act like you don’t care about $30-40 to pay for some decent date and thinks you’re cute. The bj is going to be that much better, you’re just on a date it’s prob not working out long term. I’m trying to get some affection I’m not ruining it over 2 twenties. If you care that damn much about $30 for a pretty girl that showed up just for you, then you need a better career.

SocialTransparent · 2024-12-28T03:29:49+00:00

I’m old, so I grew up during a time when men paid and provided. So if I ask a woman out for a date, I will pay, no problem. I’m not hurting for money, but if what I could afford did not satisfy the woman, I learned that she wasn’t the one for me. Some things in life give you a handy litmus test to show what should be your next move. If I could afford a decent chain restaurant, but not an exclusive steak or seafood place costing much more, and if my date objected to that, then I would suggest that she put her money into the date — if that doesn’t work, she isn’t for me. Probably isn’t for me long term. (It’s the same for women — her children are a litmus test for men. If a man doesn’t accept the people she loves, that just saved her time and energy that might have been put into a man that isn’t for her). I don’t just pay for my dates; I often treat my sons and their partners if we are out celebrating a birthday or something — sometimes I treat their friends. I know that everything is expensive today, so if I have the money to afford treating younger people I care about, I like to do so. Let them enjoy a good time without having to think about the money. Now, if I met a woman with a lot more money than I have, and she has tastes to match her income, she might even offer to pick up the bill. I would let her — it’s a friendly gesture. But just occasionally. If she could afford a lavish lifestyle and I cannot, I would NOT be content for her to pay my way in that lifestyle. It just wouldn’t feel right to me. She needs to find someone that she doesn’t need to support, and I need to find someone that fits my life. Chalk it up to “male pride” or “male ego”, but I just don’t feel right living off a woman.

Life-Mud-4203 · 2024-12-29T04:54:23+00:00

Okay, I have a question about women spending money on dates. Most women I've seen dress up a lot on dates. Their makeup costs a lot of money. Their hairstyling costs money. Their shoes, matching outfits, and jewelry cost money. Most of them wax their legs, or do some other skin care rituals which again cost money. Read about the concept called 'pink tax'. Historically, women's products have always costed more than men's products. Which is one of the reason why there is so much of female infanticide in soem countries. So by default if a woman is spending indirectly on making herself 'dateable', what's wrong in a guy paying for the first date? Or are men totally fine going out witha woman who doesn't wear makeup, no expensive clothes, no fancy hairstyle, no matching shoes, hairy legs, etc etc?

ullivator · 2024-12-27T20:29:01+00:00

If a “man” doesn’t have enough money to go on dates he has failed as a man. She should use she/her pronouns.

Title	Expecting the man to pay is abusing outdated gender norms
Author	KittyCatKnight
Upvotes	187
Comments	492
Date	December 27, 2024 4:53 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1hnj6ps/expecting_the_man_to_pay_is_abusing_outdated/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/expecting-the-man-to-pay-is-abusing-outdated.1539655 https://theredarchive.com/post/1539655

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