the ultimate force that is shaping womens' frustration with dating is the engine of hypergamy raising her standards without her concious awareness

Rach1943 · 2024-02-19T01:15:44+00:00

'he seemed like a great guy but I just don't feel it" = I dated hotter, more charming, etc. men in the past than this guy and my body...

[–]Sharp_Engineering379light blue pill woman 41 points42 points43 points 2 years ago (79 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Sharp_Engineering379light blue pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

[–]anonymousUser1SHIFTPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

It’s just that men have a tendency to fall for female friends without checking for mutual attraction first, and it’s frustrating because women like and sometimes love those male friends who decide that it’s romance/sex or nothing.

Let's pick this apart and see if you have any empathy for men.

men have a tendency to fall for female friends without checking for mutual attraction first

Like with many women, falling for someone isn't a choice they get to make. Sometimes they might notice ahead of time and could make an effort to curb it, which would still result in him being distant to her. However most probably notice way to late and just realize one day "shit this feeling isn't just endearing long term friendship but love"...

those male friends who decide that it’s romance/[redacted because it's completely unnecessary] or nothing

Would you rather they stay in the friendship where it's unrelenting torture day in day out as they get to see the women they love and want to dedicate themself to date and get heart broken by other guys?

[–]Sharp_Engineering379light blue pill woman 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[–]Taicho_Gato 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

Hell is described as a place where your greatest desires are always within sight but just out of reach. So staying friends with someone like that is reasonably described as 'hellish'.

The other scenarios are where the women involved were never an active player in 'the game'. You'd have to break bro code to pursue someone's S/O, and the family comparison is just weird. Any romance outlined in those platonic relationships is outside the bounds of civility. Romance with someone who is single and not in your discernable family tree is literally fair game.

Co workers is a weird one to bring up because a fair number of women wind up in relationships with their coworkers. I haven't personally worked anywhere this DIDN'T happen. Except when I was independent contracting (unless you count my relationship with my left hand.

The overdramatic thing is circumstantial, but valid. I personally haven't done it. I'd rather just let sleeping dogs lay (and maintain a potential wingwoman and friendly face), but I'd be lying if I said I never saw it happen.

[–]Sharp_Engineering379light blue pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

Hell is described as a place where your greatest desires are always within sight but just out of reach.

Hell is a place where a man regards you as a means to an end rather than a fully realized human being with her own agenda and path.

The other scenarios are where the women involved were never an active player in 'the game'.

Neither was any other woman who isn't interested in him romantically or sexually. He just unilaterally decided "I want this person regardless of her feelings" and made both their lives as unpleasant as possible.

Co workers is a weird one to bring up because a fair number of women wind up in relationships with their coworkers

Sure, when both parties want that. But somehow Mr. Friendzone manages to keep his feelings in check when his livelihood and professional reputation is on the line. He only needles women when it's convenient for him to do so, without care about how it affects her.

(and maintain a potential wingwoman and friendly face)

Exactly, that's what friends are for. I'm on team Gato.

[–]Taicho_Gato 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

1.'dOnT oBjEcTiFy Me!' Listen. You can't just call all desire objectification . Your goal can be a healthy monogamous relationship, that is a valid desire.The man who wants for nothing is not a man who will be in a relationship at all. He's in a monestary in Tibet.

Everyone starts as strangers who don't want to fuck each other. Until they aren't. If you learn nothing else from PPD it should be that men have very few attraction triggers and women have a variety. I would argue most men need to 'sell' themselves as sexually desirable in some way, and a non-zero amount of that starts as platonic-ish in nature. Then it's kind of an awkward feels dance where she kindof knows but isn't sold and he may or may not know she knows and etc.
Sure, but at the same time he's also getting paid not to get fired. I would guess a lot of the time women are the ones to cross the line at the workplace and succeed, men get a trip to HR for perving at work, women get... Well usually what they want and pursue. C'est la vie.
We might not agree on everything but I think the ability to maintain platonic relationships with women IS ultimately important to dude-kind. Especially in the era of basically unlimited porn, raised and socially conditioned in quarantine and (what's a good way to describe this?) The dudes that make us all look bad on OLD.

[–]Sharp_Engineering379light blue pill woman -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

Your goal can be a healthy monogamous relationship, that is a valid desire.

Of course it is, so long as the desire is mutual. When it isn't mutual, it's objectification. If you doubt me, consider what it would feel like if your best male friend of many years said "Okay look, I'm in love with you. And if you don't reciprocate, I'm leaving forever."

Well usually what they want and pursue. C'est la vie.

What's the difference between male vs female sexual harassment at work? The reporting. Most men admit they are flattered by any and all female attention, even if they aren't interested. If she's affecting his quality of life and production at work, it's entirely up to him to document and report, same rules as for women.

We might not agree on everything but I think the ability to maintain platonic relationships with women IS ultimately important to dude-kind. Especially in the era of basically unlimited porn, raised and socially conditioned in quarantine and (what's a good way to describe this?) The dudes that make us all look bad on OLD.

I'll argue that the complaint of "the friendzone" is almost entirely responsible for women retreating and circling the wagons. We've reached the 21st century and men are still blaming women for their feelings and behavior. Women don't hate men so much as are exhausted by men for their objectification and unreasonable expectations.

[–]CradleCityReign of Terror Pill - Man 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago* (30 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Taicho_Gato1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well i think this might be the 'fork in the road'.

The only difference between a friendship and romantic relationship is sexual in nature. If you have mismatched libidos it's generally a big problem no?

Let me put it another way. Without the psuedo agreement of only having sex with each other (on a reasonably regular basis) most men would never enter a romantic relationship.

So I'm going to give you a little background. I dated a young woman for 5 years. The first few months were great, regular sex, lots of fun etc. then work got in the way, school (for both of us) got in the way. Before I knew it I was 2 years in and getting turned down on a regular basis, 3-5 times a week dwindled down to once a month. It was taking a toll on my mental health (which I didn't have to spare because I was in school for critical care and watching people die for the first time in my life on a regular basis) and self esteem. Could you imagine getting turned down over and over, always having to initiate? Anyway. One day we had a sit down after the most recent rejection, it had been 3 months, and if you asked my dick? He wouldn't have known we were still in a committed relationship.

So longstory short. I told her what I told you. 'hey it's been 3 months, do you want to talk about what's going on? Is everything ok on your end?' 'yeah, I'm ok'. 'well that's good, but I'm feeling neglected (insert part from earlier about how I didn't feel desired etc.), and that's ok, but if you aren't sweet on me we need to have a conversation about 'us' because right now the only difference between you and my friend Ryan is that you get cranky when I touch your butt and he doesn't... Do we need to just be friends?' 'no! I love being with you and I hear you' etc.etc.

She unenthusiastically got on a 'once a month' schedule in the years that followed. It was exhausting being in a relationship with someone who viewed physical intimacy like her period 'well, I gotta go through this or I lose something important'

Sex is not just sex. And by the time you're on a 'schedule' or need to keep score, one or both of you probably should've ended the relationship.

[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Taicho_Gato1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hey fair enough.

But I think you understand my point, and this is one of those double standards that pushes guys deep into the red hole.

I put trust, fidelity and love above my own base desires and got burned for my trouble (and this is not a unique story). So moving forward I have less incentive to trust and love someone completely, because it's been a recurring theme.

SOMEONE has to be the initiator or nothing happens. A petition is not coercion. I didn't force anyone into a corner there, just told her the truth.

'we can be friends if you don't want my dick anymore'

'nono I love you' queue Maury Povich

If anything she gaslit me for YEARS to obtain undue benefits from girlfriendhood when in reality she was just a friend who tolerated sex to maintain her girlfriend status and benefits.

How's that? Instead of making me the bad guy by way of syntax, what if I was the victim?

(Or we could just avoid needlessly inflammatory buzzwords and rhetoric, half-baked judgement and talk about it like adults)

[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Sharp_Engineering3792 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know, she sounds like a perfect match for you. Maybe the centuries long narrative that sex is a thing women are supposed to provide to husbands hurts more people than it helps. Maybe that prevailing manopshere narrative leads men to believe they are being cheated out of a service which is owed to them.

It's entirely possible this is one of those compromises men will have to accept, as women have long since accepted they are stuck with dirty laundry, running errands, making appointments, taking primary care of the kids and pets, and generally being forced into the Mommy role while men enjoy the same perks of being male they enjoyed as children.

It sucks to feel as though you are being taken advantage of, but sex is one of those things which requires the enthusiastic participation of both parties, and the fastest way to ensure one pulls away is to lay expectations on him or her.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Sharp_Engineering3792 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Correct, chores won’t make her wet. But the disappointment in his entitled and incompetent behavior after the commitment is definitely a net drain on her respect and attraction to her partner.

I haven’t been married, only in three relationships since I turned 18, but I watched all three men change from competent, confident, busy hustlers to needy, dependent, boring little brothers. Standing at the sink dumbfounded when BF1 pretended not to know how to load a dishwasher after a party he threw at my house. BF2 refused to mow his mother’s postage stamp sized lawn unless I loaded up my zero turn. BF3 pouted and whined every time I wanted to run a race, which he used to run with me. Same guy reduced his hours so he could accompany me on business trips which lasted four trips before I was suffocating and furious that he wouldn’t let me prepare or teach.

The list is much longer, but in my experience men pull these stunts in their twenties, so I can’t imagine how men behave after a baby or two require mom’s attention.

A lot of women blow up families and destroy men’s lives chasing that new relationship high.

The new man acts like the old man once did and goes all out to impress her, is excited about showing his competence and independence, perfectly capable of taking care of himself.

I find cheating abhorrent, but I couldn’t extract myself from laziness and dependence fast enough.

I’m aware of the buzzword “new relationship energy”, but men translate that as “new dick energy” or novelty, without giving a single thought to how that new guy is behaving.

Women are just as guilty of dropping the glam act, guilty of reigning in all novel sexual stuff and redirecting her energy to the kids (no choice there, kids are dependent, you know).

In the beginning men pull the hero act, women act like sex bombs, then life intervenes and the resentment builds.

The crux of the problem is women aren’t excited by men who behave like children, and men resent the hell out of being ignored sexually. Women leave because they lose respect and have more options. Men stay because they don't have options and figure they can just hassle or guilt her into providing sex.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Just curious, did you initially ask your third boyfriend to accompany you on those trips?

Maybe we are talking about different things.

I don't believe that the main reason why women divorce men is because the guy didn't do enough chores. It stretches credulity that it took 5-10 years of marriage for her to notice stuff like that.

The real reason why women divorce men is because they lose sexual attraction to the guy. I think that it is a biological aspect of women's sexuality--they aren't really wired for marriage.

Check out this study: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cultural-animal/202201/how-sexual-desire-changes-after-marriage

Also check out this one: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-asymmetric-brain/202312/8-new-scientific-insights-on-love-and-how-it-fades-away

[–]Sharp_Engineering3792 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Just curious, did you initially ask your third boyfriend to accompany you on those trips?

Nope, I suspect he was mate guarding.

Just curious, did you initially ask your third boyfriend to accompany you on those trips?

Second time you’ve oversimplified it. It’s far more than chores. Men feign Herculean levels of competence and independence when trying to impress a woman; they set the bar at “competent and independent” then turn to lazy mush after commitment. The man who built all the things, repaired things, cleaned all his own things, impressed us with his cooking, and generally demonstrated his fitness as a hero and mate devolves to a messy teenager post commitment.

The real reason why women divorce men is because they lose sexual attraction to the guy

That’s what I’m describing here. She was attracted to Hercules, but ended up with a sloppy stepson.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry, but I will have to disagree with you. It doesn't make sense that it would take 5-10 years of marriage for a woman to notice that a guy is lazy and to divorce him then for that reason.

I think what happens is that the woman internally loses attraction to the guy and projects her change in internal state onto a socially acceptable external reason.

Did you read the linked articles? Here are some interesting excerpts.

Five years into the marriage, the average husband’s desire for sex is the same as when he walked down the aisle, but his wife’s desire has dwindled.

What’s more, we found that marital satisfaction for both husband and wife deteriorated in step with the wife’s loss of sexual desire. (The husband’s sexual desire was irrelevant to anybody’s marital happiness.) Might wives lose sexual desire because the marriage is turning bad? No: Time-lag analyses indicated that her loss of desire came first, leading to lower satisfaction later. Early levels of (dis)satisfaction did not predict how rapidly the wives lost interest in sex.

Interestingly, the loss of love effect in couples married for a longer time was mainly driven by women. While men showed a 9.2% reduction between couples married for a short or a long time, women showed a much larger reduction of 55.2%. Thus, romantic love fades away more strongly in women than in men.

[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you. It doesn't make sense that it would take 5-10 years of marriage for a woman to notice that a guy is lazy and to divorce him then for that reason.

Divorce is the 2nd most stressful event of one’s life, and I’m sure you’re aware of the sunk-cost fallacy.

Like I said, the devolution from hero to son is baffling, as I’m sure many men whose sex kitten girlfriend morphed into a frumpy mom post kids can attest.

I’m in the science field and I do appreciate the studies, but psychology is a soft science and frequently the questions asked of people are softballs or lack space for nuance.

Time-lag analyses indicated that her loss of desire came first, leading to lower satisfaction later.

And how could a study possibly control for the usual stressors of adulthood like financial issues, learning to live with someone who was raised with an entirely different dynamic, hormonal birth control, pregnancy, childbirth, etc? As you noted, men’s desire reportedly doesn’t diminish, but you are well aware that male sex hormones run on a 24 hour cycle, whereas women’s run on a 28 day cycle. Hubs might seek sex every morning, including those mornings when the wife is focused on getting ready for work, the week she is menstruating, or still frustrated by the pile of laundry and wet towels he left to mildew on the floor the night before. Men seem far more driven to scratch an itch on a schedule which suits them, whereas most women not on hormonal birth control are only climbing-the walls-horny two weeks per month.

And just to take it one step further, if my fictional husband were pawing at me every morning for sex, I don’t have time in the morning to have an orgasm. What am I supposed to do, present like a cat in heat when I’m not feeling it and I’m not going to get anything out of it? Not to mention his behavior dramatically changed post marriage.

If I have to offer one-sided sex and drive to work in sticky panties and no orgasm, it won’t take long before the resentment builds up. I’d definitely be lamenting “the old days” when we met for a run or dinner then returned home in the evening for a leisurely, mutually enjoyable fuck with no time constraints.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok, so you want to disregard the survey results because they don't fit your worldview, which is not surprising, I guess.

I think the results hint at what is a kind of an unsavory aspect of women's sexuality. Most women just aren't capable of maintaining sexual attraction to one guy over long periods of time.

This aspect of their sexuality, when it is left unexamined/unchecked, causes women to blow up families and ruin their husbands' lives. It is weird to me that from a young age/puberty, guys are taught that their sexuality is not conducive to polite society, and MUST be tempered. It is strange that in contrast, women are pretty much taught that whatever they desire is always good and right.

I think it is important to be aware of this so BOTH the man and woman can have realistic expectations for marriage. If you ever plan get married and have children, I would honestly urge you to pay attention to what I'm saying.

See below quote from article:

Declining happiness in marriage is a serious problem. I suspect it’s because when the wife starts to lose sexual desire, both parties think this indicates a problem with their marriage, and they blame themselves or each other. Psychology could strengthen marriages if it could help people realize that this is a common pattern. Rather than being a sign that the marriage has problems, they might see it as a standard problem that they can solve as a couple.

I think we've kind of exhausted the discussion on this particular topic. Here is one more topic which is interesting, and which mainstream narratives surrounding LTRs with women can't explain.

The type of marriage which is LEAST likely to be successful is a marriage between two women. Why is this the case? Shouldn't the divorce rate for lesbian marriages be near zero? How can you blame the failure of a lesbian marriage on the man?

The type of marriage which is MOST likely to be successful and not end in divorce is a marriage between two men. Interesting, right? I thought men were the root of all evil in relationships.

[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think the results hint at what is a kind of an unsavory aspect of women's sexuality.

So you want to add in your imagined reasons not listed in your sources, because…they don't fit your worldview, which is not surprising, I guess.

Adding nuance and perspective doesn’t negate your sources, doesn’t matter if you or I offer our unique perspective.

This aspect of their sexuality, when it is left unexamined/unchecked, causes women to blow up families and ruin their husbands' lives.

Unless you can present a reason why her life should be ruined while stuck with a man she can’t stand, leaving is better than misery for both.

rty, guys are taught that their sexuality is not conducive to polite society, and MUST be tempered.

Boys are more likely to act out, but no one’s sexuality is welcome outside of consent, period.

It is strange that in contrast, women are pretty much taught that whatever they desire is always good and right.

Odd claim, when you’re well aware that women from regions with Abrahamic religions begin life as occasions to sin, enjoy a puberty filled with leering and slut-shaming, and in middle age, women enjoy being screeched at for frigidity. There isn’t a time in any woman’s life when she is free of men’s eyes and judgment on her, so it shouldn’t be a surprise if she frees herself from these shackles given the first opportunity.

The type of marriage which is LEAST likely to be successful is a marriage between two women. Why is this the case? Shouldn't the divorce rate for lesbian marriages be near zero? How can you blame the failure of a lesbian marriage on the man?

Apparently you believe that Lesbians are raised in a vacuum free of men’s gaze and influence. Lesbos is a fictional isle, all women are subjected to the sexual gaze and sexual oppression of men. Inhibitions and (potentially conflicting) hormone cycles don’t magically disappear because a woman gets under another woman.

Interesting, right?

Well yes, it’s good to be the king with an ever renewing 12-24 hour cycle of testosterone which contributes entirely to a man’s desire to couple with another man. That does indeed, sound like a fun and carefree sexlife, something very few women could ever know.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So you want to add in your imagined reasons not listed in your sources, because…they don't fit your worldview, which is not surprising, I guess.

No explanation for the data is offered in the first article because it is so politically incorrect and so taboo to suggest that women are the cause of their own unhappiness in LTRs and marriages. I would never talk about this in public. It is just so forbidden.

The mainstream narrative is that that the health of a LTR/marriage between a man and a woman is primarily the responsibility of the man. If you step back and think about how society talks about romantic relationships between men and women, it is honestly kind of strange and unlike almost everything else in society.

Unless you can present a reason why her life should be ruined while stuck with a man she can’t stand, leaving is better than misery for both.

In the stereotypical LTR between a man and a woman, the man is happy being her boyfriend indefinitely, and it is the woman who strongarms him into proposing with the implicit threat that if he doesn't comply, she will eventually leave.

I think women who want marriage should be aware of this aspect of their sexuality, so they can have realistic expectations for marriage. Again, if you ever plan to get married and to have children, I would honestly urge you to pay attention to what I'm saying, for your future husband's and for your future children's sake.

Odd claim, when you’re well aware that women from regions with Abrahamic religions begin life as occasions to sin, enjoy a puberty filled with leering and slut-shaming, and in middle age, women enjoy being screeched at for frigidity. There isn’t a time in any woman’s life when she is free of men’s eyes and judgment on her, so it shouldn’t be a surprise if she frees herself from these shackles given the first opportunity.

I think you are exaggerating this in present day society. In the modern day, we are kind of taught that the woman's sexual preferences are kind of always right, and that it is the man who needs to accommodate her. It often doesn't matter if the woman's sexual preferences are contradictory over time or if they are destructive.

When women divorce, and even when they cheat, they are kind of celebrated. When the guy goes the same thing, he is shamed. Women totally benefit from the double standard here.

[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

and it is the woman who strongarms him into proposing with the implicit threat that if he doesn't comply, she will eventually leave.

No one should remain in an unhappy union, and neither partner should feel pressure from society, culture, or religion to submit their body for the selfish use of the other.

the man is happy being her boyfriend indefinitely,

He can't both be "happy" and suffering a turbulent "internal emotional state".

so they can have realistic expectations for marriage.

Women have a realistic expectation, our mothers and grandmothers warn women, and we see how women and children are expected to tiptoe to avoid disturbing Daddy's "peace and quiet". Every moved designed to appease the bully in the house.

I think you are exaggerating this in present day society.

Have you seen court cases in which women are blamed for their sexual assault? Have you seen social media? Have you seen the viral video of of Pastor Bobby Leonard admitting that he and other men should be incited to rape by the presence of scantily clad women in a hot, humid resort town?

This isn't a topic you can downplay or blatantly lie about.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Sharp_Engineering3791 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We almost give women the same level of agency as children.

You say this with your full chest with the full knowledge that men set women up by pretending to be heroes when they immediately settle in and model their mid-century fathers and leave the entire household and family care to her, while still demanding sex from his sex dispenser.

How can I do anything but blame up for expressing confusion that the woman who sacrificed her entire life for the comfort of a pseudo-son seeks sex from a competent, enthusiastic man who appreciates her?

Another clue I mentioned earlier which hints that divorce is primarily internally driven on the part of the woman is to look at the lesbian divorce rate. Your theory can’t even explain why lesbian divorce even exists, much less why it happens more often than in heterosexual marriages.

You can pretend that all women didn't receive the same message of slut shaming and sexual oppression/repression their entire life as straight women while men enjoyed the "yeah, he jerked off in his stepsisters' panties but boys will be boys"... but.

I'll entertain ideas and experiences from a sheltered person, but you cannot in good faith deny that male sexuality is permitted and expected, neigh... celebrated (stud, stallion, player, bachelor, etc) while female sexuality is regarded as a cancer.

[–]Suspicious-Tax-59471 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is getting repetitive. Let me try a different tack.

In your narrative, you mention that women sacrifice a lot for their husbands. Honestly, I see it more the other way around. I’m curious—what are wives sacrificing exactly?

You are proving my point when you portray women who make the conscious decision to abandon their wedding vows as being hapless victims of society. It seems like in the realm of romantic relationships, you don’t grant women much agency. You even managed find some way to blame the failure of a lesbian marriage on the man.

Male sexuality isn’t uniformly celebrated. Guys who cheat on their wives are regarded as scum, and are held responsible for their actions. When women cheat, the first question asked is: what did the husband do to make her act that way? Or: what kind of moral or character flaw did the guy have to make her lose attraction to him? It is really fucked up and absurd how much leeway women get, IMO.

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Except you are wrong, I waited out for my man, for someone I really felt the vibe with and am in the best relationship I've ever had while the women that rushed are on their second baby and divorce. It's not about taking what you can get it's about vibing with the person and wanting to spend the last of your years with them, about loving and cherishing them. Getting into a placeholder relationship out of desperation and loneliness is horrible advice. There is no man in this word that I could ever love more than my partner. And there is no BAD to him, my boy is pure delight and joy to be with. It really seems like you are looking for the worst in people to justify your shortcomings. You do you if it works for you but it's horrible advice for those seeking a happy till death us part partnership. I would hate to waste my time on someone who saw me as "tolerable" for the benefits.

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At face value if you’re a pretty young girl seems like it’s fun. Except you’re on Instagram, seeing other people happier and having more fun than you everyday.

You can get dates off dating apps anytime you want, you go on 200 dates with the hottest and most successful men you can get to take you out. You then get essentially used by 50 of the desirable men who rotate harems of women, none or maybe 1 exclusive relationship was formed but that’s over.

You’re over 30 now, you’re not as hot as a girl you were at 23. You’re now depressed, you thought for sure you were going to have a perfect luxurious life, with a rich handsome man just dying to marry you and give you babies. You’ve dated every single hot or successful eligible bachelor in a 50 mile radius now.

The fairy tales of the pretty young girl they build up in their brain is usually a mirage, but they have to wait until they get into their 30s and start losing their looks to realize what happened.

You meet these girls that never had a long term relationship now in their 30s on Hinge. They ask you a bunch of qualifications questions, what their list in requirements is, they say if you’re a player I don’t want you, I’m ready to get married and have babies. The girl lived selfishly her whole life, now she doesn’t care about you and falling in love, she wants her life taken care of.

Now she’s in her late 30s, botoxed, and bitter as hell. Off birth control and pissed off that all the best guys want a young girl now. She calls these men pedophiles, even though she dated rich older men when she was younger. I met these girls on dating apps too.

Moral of the story, get a young girl or a freshly divorced one and marry her. Dating apps and instagram destroy reality in girls and make them delusional.

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[–]obviousredflagScience Pilled Man 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy is aboute social status, not how hot, charming, attractive, etc. a man is. It is also not about what women WANT, but what they realize on the mating market. It's an observation of mating patterns, not about wishlists of women.

If you want to extend the meaning of hypergamy to include what women WANT ideally and to all traits, as long as they want someone "better" than themselves, you are free to do so, but please don't use hypergamy for that. You are tricking people into thinking you are using a commonly understood concept, while actually sneaking in something completely different.

Now, if "hypergamy" means "wanting someone better than yourself", then men are just as hypergamous as women. They also want someone better than them. We all strive for more desirable partners than we are. One study i have in mind came to the conclusion that we aim our efforts at +25% more desirable people than we are, on average. Men and women also overestimate their own desirability, men even more so than women. And that is important and good! Because it makes us go for the more attractive partners, it gives us confidences and makes us appear to be more desirable than we are. People who accurately judge their desirability and behave like that are at a disadvantage.

this hypergamous mechanism constantly "raises" the threshold for attraction

This happens to men as well. Scroll some social media and your goal for what you want in a woman regarding youth and beauty is WAAAY higher than what you can realistically get for your own value. Also, if you really think women think they can't date men who are less desirable than men they dated in the past, because the bar is not set higher, then i'd like to know what you think about the same situation with men:

Women are most desirable when they are young. Every man has dated a young woman at some point in time (incels excluded maybe). Men are just as hypergamous regarding youth/attractiveness as women are with other traits. Men also want to date women above their league. So with your logic about women and their standards, shouldn't men have their standards set at young attractive women, and less desirable (older) women will not meet their standards anymore?

It obviously is not that way. Why are men able to lower their standards to a point where they find a partner, but women apparently are not, in your view?

[–]DolphinPunkCyberPurple Pill Woman 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]obviousredflagScience Pilled Man 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Ah thanks for that source, as it proves my point. Men and women change their standards after getting rejected but not after getting accepted.

"“Interestingly, rejected advances were associated with people’s ideals, how much they were willing to deviate from their ideals, and how they viewed themselves, but accepted advances were not influential. Basically, getting rejected will affect your standards and self-perceptions more than being accepted. Also, because other research has shown that ideal standards are predictive of who people form relationships with, our study suggests that individuals’ experiences with rejection may eventually influence who they wind up dating.”

Women are rejected for commitment by the men above their league. They learn that some men just seem them as sex partners but not as relationship partners. This is rejection and it does help women to narrow down their relationship value on the mating market.

[–]DolphinPunkCyberPurple Pill Woman 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Women are rejected for commitment by the men above their league. They learn that some men just seem them as sex partners but not as relationship partners. This is rejection and it does help women to narrow down their relationship value on the mating market.

Yeah but, men get rejected right away, so it doesn't take much time to learn your league right?

Women get approached by men which do not see them as relationship material, they can spend even years being a "forever girlfriend". The shitty part, we will often end those relationships on our own. No feeling of being rejected.

I had the opportunity to witness a textbook example just recently when my friend "Ana" (F32 let's call her a 5) was "forever girlfriend" with two guys out of her league (let's call them 7's), she dumped them after realizing they had no intention to commit, and her standards were still sky high. She didn't feel rejected.

Then she started dating a guy (let's call him a 6) which was actually committed. But she still thought he wasn't good enough for her, wasn't determined, started playing games. Because her standards were still too high.

Then guy (6) breaks Ana expectations, because instead of chasing after her, he dumps her. He doesn't give some B.S. excuse about not being compatible, doesn't come crawling back begging, doesn't look miserable. Ana tries to initiate contact to return some of her self esteem, but he ghosts her.

After that you can easily see Ana doesn't feel confident about being a 7 anymore. She keeps asking their friends to validate her status as a 7, she starts changing her wardrobe, puts effort into makeup.

It took about 16 years for Ana standards to get grounded in reality.

[–]obviousredflagScience Pilled Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but, men get rejected right away, so it doesn't take much time to learn your league right?

Yeah, on average, women will take longer to find out their relationship value, because they also have a sex value and those two differ and can only be distinguished by asking for relationship and getting rejected.

Also, people differ in their ability to accurately estimate their mate value and in their ability to correctly assesss other people's mate value and how they should adjust their own estimation by rejections from people of differing mate values. It is a ABILITY (which is likely normally distributed) to recognize when someone is a good, matching partner for your own value. Some people are exceptionally bad at it and some are super good at it. Dealing with personal examples doesn't get us far for this reasons.

Everyone has their own mating strategy. It's perfectly viable to have the strategy to try to shoot way above one's league until the very last moment that would still allow for family building. Just like it's a viable strategy to take the first person that doesn't say no, to be safe and get what one wants: security in a relationship. People have differnet approaches, mostly subconscious and their psychological needs and problems play into that too. A person with low self esteem will likely not look out for a partner way above their league.

[–]DolphinPunkCyberPurple Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, on average, women will take longer to find out their relationship value, because they also have a sex value and those two differ and can only be distinguished by asking for relationship and getting rejected.

Exactly. Physically attractive men will also often contribute their romantic success to their skill. Trust fund kids will also often contribute their financial success to their skill. Dumb luck is also often contributed to personal skill.

But failure is usually contributed to bad luck.

Also, people differ in their ability to accurately estimate their mate value and in their ability to correctly assesss other people's mate value and how they should adjust their own estimation by rejections from people of differing mate values. It is a ABILITY (which is likely normally distributed) to recognize when someone is a good, matching partner for your own value. Some people are exceptionally bad at it and some are super good at it. Dealing with personal examples doesn't get us far for this reasons.

I wasn't trying to use this personal example, to say "all women are like this". If anything Ana is an example of woman which was exceptionally bad at recognizing her own value, which is why she was ending up as a "forever girlfriend" to start with. What this example is good for is showing how even such a woman was brought down to the ground by a simple and straight rejection.

Everyone has their own mating strategy. It's perfectly viable to have the strategy to try to shoot way above one's league until the very last moment that would still allow for family building. Just like it's a viable strategy to take the first person that doesn't say no, to be safe and get what one wants: security in a relationship. People have differnet approaches, mostly subconscious and their psychological needs and problems play into that too. A person with low self esteem will likely not look out for a partner way above their league.

But a good gambler knows his odds, knows when to play safe, when to risk. And more often then not leaves the table with more chips then they brought.

Bad gamblers don't.

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Their biology is to be "blamed".

If it wasn't for the careful and rigorous female selection procedure, we'd have ugly and poor people left and right.

As Charles Murray (Author: "The Bell Curve") rightly said, women who know how and what to choose are foundational for EVERY prospering society.

In highly competitive regions (e.g. NA/Europe) women don't usually open their legs to the next-best man--> prosperity/freedom/well-being. In "less competitive regions" to remain polite, women select less carefully and rigorously --> poverty/authority/misery.

If women decline you, then it's Nature telling you that your genes aren't competitive in the environment you're in which is why women don't invest (pregnancy) in them. It's as simple as that.

Men who go to other regions (you all know them by now) admit with their very actions that their genes aren't competitive in their native environment which is why objective: procreating can only be achieved in an "inferior" environment where competitors aren't as strong.

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Monogamy is not mutually exclusive with being in a relationship nor does it mean waiting until marriage to have sex. You can be monogamous and single. You can be monogamous, single, and have had sex in the the past. You can be monogamous and in a relationship with someone to whom you are not married. You can be monogamous and in a relationship with a man who is sleeping with one or more other people. You can be monogamous and never have interest in getting married, regardless of your relationship status.

You see how those dialectics work?

You're talking like there are no single women in existence. You're also talking like men do not lie about their relationship status. You're also talking as if when a man is dating/seeing 2 women those women are by extension not monogamous even if they are each only seeing that one man.

[–]YasuotheChosenOne1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Monogamy is not mutually exclusive with being in a relationship nor does it mean waiting until marriage to have sex.

But it does mean you aren’t having sex outside of a relationship. You’re looking for 1 person at a time to be with.

You can be monogamous and single. You can be monogamous, single, and have had sex in the the past. You can be monogamous and in a relationship with someone to whom you are not married. You can be monogamous and never have interest in getting married, regardless of your relationship status.

Yes.

You can be monogamous and in a relationship with a man who is sleeping with one or more other people.

How?! Unless he’s sleeping with men, he’d have to LTR another woman (they’re monogamous remember?).

You know how much work that is? And just for more pussy?! It’s not something the average guy could pull off that’s for damn sure. If women followed some kind of “3-month rule” it’d be damn near impossible to cheat. No way you’re hiding another woman from your girl for 3 months while actively dating both. Let alone 3 or more women.

You're talking like there are no single women in existence. You're also talking like men do not lie about their relationship status. You're also talking as if when a man is dating/seeing 2 women those women are by extension not monogamous even if they are each only seeing that one man.

No, I’m talking like it’s a world where women are actually monogamous and how they would behave. They’d be even more careful around dating. And cheating would be almost impossible, because no women single or dating would be interested in fucking you casually. The closest thing would be serial monogamy, but even then, it’d be a lot of work, especially if women did wait for marriage to have sex (which I’m betting most would if they were truly monogamous).

[–]microchipgirl1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But it does mean you aren’t having sex outside of a relationship.

Define relationship. You are clearly using it in a different context than I.

You’re looking for 1 person at a time to be with.

Clearly. I never said otherwise.

How?! Unless he’s sleeping with men, he’d have to LTR another woman.

LTR stands for long term relationship and I'm unsure what you mean by using that term in this context.

(they’re monogamous remember?)

More on that below.

No way you’re hiding another woman from your girl for 3 months while actively dating both. Let alone 3 or more women.

People (men and women) are *ABSOLUTELY* literally doing this all.the.time. Successfully. Sometimes, quite commonly, for *years*.

But also, where are you getting the number "3+" from? The *most common* number of people to cheat on their partners with is 1. As in, they are just cheating with 1 person, either as a one-time thing or as an affair. Not 3+. Are there a few guys out there who cheat on woman 1 with 2 or more others? Probably, but that seems like an extreme outlier type situation.

No, I’m talking like it’s a world where women are actually monogamous and how they would behave. They’d be even more careful around dating. And cheating would be almost impossible, because no women single or dating would be interested in fucking you casually. The closest thing would be serial monogamy, but even then, it’d be a lot of work, especially if women did wait for marriage to have sex (which I’m betting most would if they were truly monogamous).

No, dude. You're still conflating monogamy with celibacy-before-marriage/commitment, despite the fact that earlier in your response you responded to my opening portion with a "Yes". So I will re-paste it here for you to read again:

"Me: You can be monogamous and single. You can be monogamous, single, and have had sex in the the past. You can be monogamous and in a relationship with someone to whom you are not married. You can be monogamous and never have interest in getting married, regardless of your relationship status.

You: Yes."

2 different women can both be dating a man who is fucking them both. If those women are not dating anyone else except that 1 man, *they* are each monogamous. *He* is not. His status as NM does not change theirs. You need to talk to some poly folks to get a better understanding of how monogamy can actually happen in the same relationship with folks who are NM.

Also, stop trying to force the idea that women should wait until marriage to have sex (while conveniently not saying that men should be doing the same).

To paraphrase Mr. Montoya, I don't think you know what monogamy means.

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why should it be changed?

You said hypergamy exists because men want it too. I'm arguing that we couldn't change it anyway. You're defeating your own point.

so im not seeing how hypergamy has changed in modern times

Buddy look outside of marriage, the amount of people getting married has decreased. A reason women give for this is that there aren't enough men at their level.

if it doesnt benefit you, work around it.

We're arguing that it can't be changed, you don't seem to understand what your own point is. I'm responding to your point that hypergamy exist because men want it too. My response is that men can't change it. You've responded that you should work around it. So are you admitting your first point was wrong and indeed you cant change it. If so we can move on. How does someone " work around hypergamy". Go into depth about that.

[–]grillopie2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]arvada141 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

marriage rates decreased, but so has divorce. there are so many other reasons for this than hypergamy. that makes the least sense as an explanation since the people getting married arent growing farther apart in status.

The divorve rate is irrelevant to this discussion. How is divorce effected by hypergamy. Negatively of positively. Anyhow, divorce is going down because there are less married people. This is a non sensical rebuttal to my argument.

if hypergamy caused the decrease in marriages, youd expect the people who end up married to be farther apart in status,

Why would you expect this please explain. Why couldn't the same gap in social status exist but less people are meeting the threshold. None of what you're saying follows a thread that's logical

not arguing whether it can be changed.

You said hypergamy exists because men allow it. The implication is that men didn't allow it, it would change or not exist. You then suggested men should work around it and then you didn't explain anything. I don't want you to feel bad but nothing you've said is logically consistent. You make a statement, I give you a reason why its wrong or unrelated and you don't address it and move on.

How can men "work around it" explain that. Ignore the rest.

[–]grillopie2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]arvada141 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

TL:DR just read the last paragraph.

significant percentage of marriages involve the man as the primary caregiver. Be one of those.

But once again we're not working around hypergamy we're playing into it. In order to be a primary bread winner in todays day and age, you need to make more money than your female partner, yet as i've Explained lots of women make as much or more than men. So you're becoming more attractive by increasing social status because female social status has increased. Which is just hypergamy as you've agreed with.

Do you see what I mean when i've said your arguments dont make sense?

I never said you CANT lol.

i'm saying you're not saying anything of substance. You've argued that hypergamy doesn't exist in one instance. Then you argued it only does because men allow it. The assumption is that it can be changed if many men did something. If not what is the point of saying it exists because men allow it. What could we do with that information.

Youre arguing about how bad it is.

I think you believe im personally affected by this. I'm not. I'm describing the world as it is. Im responding to your first post that says hypergamy doesn't exist and if it does it only does because of men. Both things are wrong, i don't care about the outcomes of hypergamy just the fact that you don't understand it and have no cogent argument to defend your first statement.

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Yea dude you didn’t address any of what I just said, it’s about the tools available to convince yourself you’re desirable and the inevitable effects that has on one’s self perception. There’s a real conversation to be had and you’re coming in saying it can’t be true because for once it doesn’t completely blame the individual in a way people like you weaponize.

And I’m not sure how you don’t understand calling something cope is using the sour grapes rhetorical strategy to shut the discussion down. It ends up sounding a lot more pathetic when you’re claiming to be “amused” by something you completely missed the point on lmao. Oh look I’m not completely content with my dating life, therefore everything I say is invalid and self-soothing.

I said here’s why women would be more inclined to keep trying to punch up, and you bumble in with “nuh uh plenty of guys do it cuz they do and like incels are like that, plus it helps my position to baselessly equivocate men and women’s behavior.” Like cmon, the platitudes are wearing thin, and appealing to some random ass incel caricature doesn’t have the weight you think it does. Might have worked in 2015 but now you just sound even more out of touch fighting an imaginary bogeyman

[–]Havel681 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I also think the concept of hypergamy makes a convenient scapegoat for a lot of men and can easily be made to explain just about anything. Its not even a scientific fact its a sociological theory.

It does seem that women find fewer men attractive than men find women so any woman who is healthy and not ugly will be attractive to a greater or lesser degree to a good percentage of men. While women might only find a few men out of any cohort attractive. The thing is that not all women find the same men attractive. When I think of my friends male partners, there aren't any I find particularly attractive and I know for a fact that one of my friends thinks my partner is creepy looking but I find him very handsome. I went out a couple of times with a guy in collage who was considered very attractive by quite a few girls, he asked me out and I said yes because he seemed like a nice enough guy and he was pretty insistent, he was tall and very masculine looking but ultimately I just wasn't attracted to him, he wasn't my type. My now partner who I plan to marry is in my view far more attractive and desirable to me even if he doesn't meet the stereotypical standards of what most would consider to be a "chad".

[–]Silver_Past2313Nature Pilled Man 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

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“Bro”, following your “heart” is a euphemism for some cosmic and high / virtuous / spiritual calling that women use to make their Hypergamy sound better.

The reason they say shit like “follow my heart” is because to contemplate that they are as much slaves to their biology as men are would break their brain. Thus they use self delusional phrases like that to avoid any introspection and accountability.

If they said, “I’m following my evolutionary / biological instincts to secure a high status man which has caused me to turn down perfectly good perspective mates because their low status gives me the ick” you might have a point.

Men will commonly cite their biology and physical instincts when describing the (often bad) decisions they make.

Women? Nope. It was their “heart” or fucking astrological sign.

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I used to wonder about a lack of physical attraction. I cared before I read how men feel about it on Reddit. When women ask “if she marries you and isn’t attracted, will you still expect sex for the duration of your relationship?”

And men’s answer was “Of course I do”

And I stopped caring about men who think nothing of expecting and shaming and whining and coercing sex out of a disengaged partner. Who think nothing of putting the woman they “love” through degrading and demeaning acts so that men can get what they want.

Who are perfectly content to use her body as a sperm receptacle while she lies there uncomfortable to miserable, forced to slink off to the hottest shower after being used by a man whose tongue in her mouth disgusts her.

And I stopped caring if men’s feelings were hurt due to a lack of physical attraction, because their response to a lack of sexual reciprocity are universally monstrous.

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Yes, just the response and vitriol to saying that more men should not participate in a game that the costs to their mental health and wellbeing are greater than the payoff is telling. Thankfully, more men are realizing this and figuring out the juice isn’t worth the squeeze and voluntarily leaving the dating market. That’ll only climb as women get more and more picky. You’re allowed to have whatever standards you want, i did not imply anything otherwise. You guys always go to “wE dOnT HaVe tO DaTe mEn We DoNt wAnT to” when often times, no one is saying you have to. More so we are just tired of hearing you complain about some abstract bar for men that’s in hell while they refuse to take responsibility for their own failings when they only go for the most attractive men who other women also want, thus giving him plenty of options and not a whole lot of reason to settle. The vast majority of men do not want to force women to be with anyone, they can share the top men they convince themselves they deserve while average men find purposes outside of women and disengage from dating and women while simultaneously advocating for their resources not be used towards women’s issues and problems in society that has nothing to do with them.

[–]fiftypoundpuppyChadFemme (Woman) 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Women aren't sharing top men, nor do we want to. Just because men can't just show up, dick in hand, and be assigned a wife and now have to actually try to be attractive to women (and that doesn't just include looks) doesn't mean that women only want "Chad.".

The vast majority of men do not want to force women to be with anyone, they can share the top men they convince themselves they deserve while average men find purposes outside of women and disengage from dating and women while simultaneously advocating for their resources not be used towards women’s issues and problems in society that has nothing to do with them.

I'm not sure what men being able to effortlessly date has to do with "men's resources being used towards women's issues and problems." Can you please elaborate on the connection? Because it sounds like you think the amount of help women get from the government should be dependent upon our willingness to fuck men, but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

[–]HedgingBetz 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Firstly, one anecdote on reddit changes literally nothing. Your attempts to make it sound trivial as if men just want to sit there and be assigned a wife is so disingenuous and bad faith it’s frankly ridiculous. I’m not talking about men who sit inside their houses and sulk like losers, i’m talking about the very real experiences of many men running the self improvement tread mill trying desperately to be good enough and attractive to a woman to find a relationship, but lo and behold, since he wasn’t born with attractive facial features, there only so much “improvement” he can do and the women that are his looks match still won’t want him. I’ve seen women here say why don’t men who are very fit and take care of themselves but are average in the face go for obese women. I shouldn’t have to tell you why that’s ridiculous. Yes I mean all of the tax dollars these so called “undesirables” getting shelled out towards the people who find him not good enough for romantic relationships. if a man chooses to disengage from women and dating, he is well within his rights to lobby to not have his tax dollars used on causes and movements that bring him no tangible benefit and are not a common or public good.

[–]fiftypoundpuppy3 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Firstly, one anecdote on reddit changes literally nothing.

It wasn't an anecdote. It was an example.

Your attempts to make it sound trivial as if men just want to sit there and be assigned a wife is so disingenuous and bad faith it’s frankly ridiculous. I’m not talking about men who sit inside their houses and sulk like losers, i’m talking about the very real experiences of many men running the self improvement tread mill trying desperately to be good enough and attractive to a woman to find a relationship, but lo and behold, since he wasn’t born with attractive facial features, there only so much “improvement” he can do and the women that are his looks match still won’t want him.

Who gets to determine who his "looks match" is, and why is there an assumption that there are equal numbers of men and women in each "match" group?

And why is it logical that someone assigning a "match" to some random woman should automatically mean she should desire him? That's not how attraction works. If someone deemed me a 6, and some random dude also a 6, I have no idea why or how that would mean I would automatically want to fuck him or want a relationship with him.

I’ve seen women here say why don’t men who are very fit and take care of themselves but are average in the face go for obese women. I shouldn’t have to tell you why that’s ridiculous.

There's nothing about them being fit that entitles them to women who look a certain way. They are free to chase after whomever they want; there's no reason why they should be guaranteed those women would want him back. That's not how attraction works.

Yes I mean all of the tax dollars these so called “undesirables” getting shelled out towards the people who find him not good enough for romantic relationships. if a man chooses to disengage from women and dating, he is well within his rights to lobby to not have his tax dollars used on causes and movements that bring him no tangible benefit and are not a common or public good.

I never argued he doesn't have this right. I'd love to see it happen. They should all band together and petition the government to address this grievance if it's that important to them. Along with mandatory paternity testing, removal of no-fault divorce, and every other thing that they hate. Don't let your dreams be dreams, kings! Make it a national campaign. If you like it I love it.

That said, unfortunately women are part of the public, so money spent on us is actually part of the "common good." Additionally, you haven't really established the link between random men not having relationships and paying taxes. Why should these logically be correlated with each other? Taxes are not based on what you, personally, do or don't get benefits from. Your lack of sex is not a common good.

[–]HedgingBetz2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes on you go about what men don’t deserve. Here, i’ll give you a little information you may not understand because you think the men on this sub are real life, men shockingly do not believe they are entitled to sex or relationships. Pointing out women’s delusional standards and hypocrisy does not mean they believe they are entitled to anything. It is simple, if a man busts his ass in the gym and is in very good shape, most likely he won’t not care to go for a woman who is obese. You can argue over semantic about looks match with me, but we all know women are the ones consistently trying to go for most of them men that most women want, which means he is most likely out of her league, then she gets mad when he has too many options and does not wish to settle with her. Then all the rest of us “meh, just average” guys get to hear about objectively average women (not too hot not ugly) complain about it, it’s quite frankly ridiculous. Go for who you want, just stop complaining about getting burnt when you make fun of men for complaining that dating is one sided and skewed towards women. No, that is not a public or common good. Tax revenue addressing only one half of the population does not benefit the entire public like transportation, a police force, or schools does. It’s simple, if most men are unwanted, that’s fine and they need to learn to accept it and live with it, but why should these men care about women’s issues or problems? If casting off dating and women is the way for these men it only makes sense they should not want their resources to be funneled to that same exact thing.

[–]fiftypoundpuppy3 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes on you go about what men don’t deserve. Here, i’ll give you a little information you may not understand because you think the men on this sub are real life, men shockingly do not believe they are entitled to sex or relationships.

Oh believe me, I'm well aware that the men on this sub are not representative of the average dude. I've never argued that they are.

Pointing out women’s delusional standards and hypocrisy

Wanting something doesn't make one delusional. I want to win the lottery; it doesn't mean that I think I will just because I want it. Nor does wanting something mean I expect to get it.

It is simple, if a man busts his ass in the gym and is in very good shape, most likely he won’t not care to go for a woman who is obese.

That's irrelevant to your point, which was all about "matches" etc. He's free to have his standards. He's not guaranteed interest from those who meet them, however you phrase it ("looksmatch," etc.). And if he can't find someone who meets them, that's not the collective fault of women. I'd say the same applies for women's standards too.

You can argue over semantic about looks match with me, but we all know women are the ones consistently trying to go for most of them men that most women want, which means he is most likely out of her league

It's not "semantics" when you keep being up "leagues" and "matches." These are real words with real meaning, and someone thus should be able to determine them. Otherwise the words are meaningless.

So again, I'll ask you who gets to determine one's league? How are "looksmatches" objectively assessed?

Most women don't chase in the first place. But the women who do go after men we're interested in. To demand that change is to demand we go after men we're not interested in, which obviously is pretty dumb.

then she gets mad when he has too many options and does not wish to settle with her.

Yes, most people are disappointed when they can't get what they want.

Also, there's plenty of shitty non-Chad men to go around buddy. I'd link you to several but I already forsee your "anecdote" dismissal.

Go for who you want,

As proven by your several paragraphs complaining about us doing that, obviously you don't actually mean that.

just stop complaining about getting burnt when you make fun of men for complaining that dating is one sided and skewed towards women.

We will just as soon as you stop complaining about us going for who we want.

No, that is not a public or common good. Tax revenue addressing only one half of the population does not benefit the entire public like transportation, a police force, or schools does.

We spent billions of dollars on foreign aid. What does that have to do with benefiting our population?

Clearly that's not the only metric. "Public/common good" doesn't necessarily have to include 100% of everyone, all the time.

It’s simple, if most men are unwanted

Already false. Whatever happened to "most men here don't represent real life?"

, that’s fine and they need to learn to accept it and live with it, but why should these men care about women’s issues or problems?

Why should helping your fellow Americans have anything to do with dating? This is the gap in sociopath logic I keep pressing you to fill that you keep avoiding. Instead, you just keep repeating your original assertion.

I don't need to have children to want children to be safe, educated, and healthy.

I don't need to have pets to want laws that protect them from being abused and neglected.

I don't need to be poor in order to be okay with my tax dollars being spent to help them.

My willingness to pay taxes to ensure a basic quality of life for others has nothing to do with what benefits I personally get out of it. My concern about others has nothing to do with what benefits I personally get out of it.

You know what we call people who think that way?

If casting off dating and women is the way for these men it only makes sense they should not want their resources to be funneled to that same exact thing.

No, it doesn't as described above. It only makes sense if you're a sociopath.

[–]HedgingBetz2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, it does not make me a sociopath whatsoever. I’ve repeated numerous times you go for who you want. I’m saying the exact opposite of “force women to be with men they don’t want to be with” or better yet “women need to change their attitudes” where have i said that at all? can you quote me please? It’s perfectly reasonable not to want to subsidize women in a society where you are deemed undesirable by them and in turn have decided to cut women and aging out of your life. Men should not be responsible for aiding women’s movements just like they don’t have to be with the (relatively speaking) non-existent programs and funding for men’s problems. Why is it so hard to get through your head i have not once said men “deserve a woman”? Again, where did i say that? If i am saying “hey men, maybe walking away from women and dating is the best option for many of us as they have made their preferences clear and as morally and legally we can’t force them to be with men they don’t want to be with, finding another reason to fulfill our lives that doesn’t include women may improve our mental health and make us feel less beholden to women and less worthless” how does that, to you, equal sociopathy or making me a bad person? Continue chasing and sharing very attractive men with other women, i never once said you should be stopped from doing so. Men don’t have to accept that and be content when women decide they want a family and stability and begrudgingly settle for a man they previously deemed, “not good enough”. Some men don’t like to throw away all of their dignity when it comes to women, and more men now are thankfully starting to realize it’s okay to live with the romantic presence of women in your life and they are not needed, there are other ways.

[–]Proof_mongol9135No pills man -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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No discussions are being stopped here. I actually have debated in good faith quite a bit and get only anger and bitterness in the replies to me. Arguing that plenty of men’s best choice is to walk away from this is a reasonable argument not one woman or blue pilled has yet to truly say why that’s bad or not something that makes sense. Also, i highly doubt you actually know what the black pill is, it’s just a boogeyman to you. I don’t identify with any pill, otherwise i would’ve put it in my flair. There are just simple realities more people (men specifically) need to understand when it comes to dating and even certain aspects of society at large. Emotionally charge phrases and words like the pills only serve to distract from this point. More women need to realize that advocating for men to do what’s best from themselves is not misogyny or hating on women. I don’t hate women, nor have i ever said something along the lines similar.

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No it’s not being authentic and showing vulnerability and having attachment issues that is contributing to people getting into superficial relationships.

There are women who want too much today with too little risk to their ego. They can’t take the leaps of faith necessary to have a satisfying LTR. They’d feel “dumb” or they’d feel like a chump if they showed the vulnerability necessary to men in order for them to have a deep connection because they don’t want to show vulnerability to man that they can’t have gurantee commitment from. They are fucking weak. Their emotions are becoming increasingly performative as they want to be seen as someone who isn’t repressed but they still want to keep their cards close to their chest and only reveal to you want they want you to know. Then once you agree on commitment and expectations, their personality does a 180 because they feel like they can act themselves (which is unhinged) once they have established the security of commitment. They are just completely undateable humans.

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The fact that o.p's assertion went right over your feminine head adds weight to the argument that women aren't actively cognisant of their hypergamous nature (and, by extension, aren't cognisant of the frustration it causes them - especially when they adopt a more non-traditional stance when dating)

most of them are unaware of hypergamy "running [in] the background"

Quote from o.p pertaining to hypergamy and how it always existed in women and is just "running in the background", as opposed to something they develop. I can see how you could be confused, though: the progression part

Op is claiming women become hypergamous

does happen, but in a "my standards are getting worse and worse because of my incessant dating + underlying hypergamous nature" way, not a "it never existed but thanks to chad it exists now" way.

Women who date many men or rejected many men couldn't settle because their needs and wants are more particular

Quote of the thing you said you didn't say.

[–]DemasiiPurple Pill Woman -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Quote from o.p pertaining to hypergamy and how it always existed in women and is just "running in the background", as opposed to something they develop. I can see how you could be confused, though: the progression part

Do you think OP would call a woman who marries her first boyfriend who is 5ft7 making $50K per year hypergamous just because she is a woman? If you do than fine I used the word "become" incorrectly but I sure don't.

does happen, but in a "my standards are getting worse and worse because of my incessant dating + underlying hypergamous nature" way, not a "it never existed but thanks to chad it exists now" way.

Hypergamy is colloquially used in PPD to mean a woman who aims for a quality of a man that is well above her own. A woman can't be hypergamous if her standards are low to reasonable. Hence why I used the word "become".

Quote of the thing you said you didn't say.

I repeatly said this.

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Meh. Im a fitness guy, so "in my scene", he wouldn't do well. But when youre talking about the emo scene, these men with average looks do well with women in their prime because they have good game, and and benefit from a smaller dating pool being in a small subculture which most men don't have and most likely this dude does not have that great of a game or else he wouldn't be on hinge reddit. But I doubt he'd be suffering. He's probably average in looks, but above average in personality and status and that's all you need with most mid women.

Ive also dabbled in the emo scene so I know the average emo man is fukn hideous and unkept. It seems like "low effort" and "vibes" are so important for emo dudes that they forget to have proper hygiene or to take care of themselves. I guess thats for normies.

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You can be very popular among mid women if you have enough game and you cross an attraction threshold. Emos are less into looks than some other subcultures though, it's why you see so many ugly men in emo costume and make-up with girls hotter than them. It's more about their persona and presence after a certain point, and I guess emo girls love the suicidal sensitive artist trope.

Dating within a subculture is a lot easier for mid and ugly dudes because women artificially restrict their dating pool within the culture and things like persona takes centre stage. Normie men don't have that luxury. I don't think average looking dude who grew out of the alt subcultures phase are gonna be successful with women playing the suicidal trope too long. But I think for younger men, joining a subculture would make it easier to get into a relationship.

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Unless it leads to unsustainable population collapse or the normalisation of unstable alternative relationships that can result in the propagation of social ills, I dont think theres anything society should do to curb hypergamy.

If it gets worse(which is a huge if), societies might just start regulating monogamy again just to keep civilisation viable. But I dont think you can control female behaviour or preferences unless the powers that be can see that female behaviour is a threat to the viability of society. You incels will be too old or dead before it gets to that point, so quit complaining and either looksmaxx and develop yourself so even the most mediocre of women can find you attractive or find peace in your solace.

Society has tolerated far more lopsided power dynamics when men had more power over women via economic power and the threat of violence, yet society tolerated it even when it led to social ills that affected women and children. The pendulum will keep swinging, and now it may be women who have the power in the social sphere. But maybe in a 100 years, some new techni-sociological paradigm shift will give the men advantage again and women will be complaining like you incels. No one is bigger than the forces that has led to this state of affairs, it up to you to adapt.

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If men as a collective can tolerate lopsided power dynamics that hurt women for centuries as a part of their social contract, why do you think women should care about men when the pendulum swings a little to their advantage and they get to dictate dating and relationships?

The difference is when men are in power, they still care about women even if they regard them as inferior.

Women do not like men, care for men, or regard men in the same way. And because of this, matriarchies will inevitably collapse and be taken over by patriarchies.

When men are in charge, it's "women and children first".
When women are in charge, it's still "women and children first". And unlike when men make that claim, the reasons behind it are selfish in nature and have none of the rationale or selfless sentiment behind it.

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You still get treated like children, you just subject yourselves to it voluntarily now for certain men. The ultimate irony. Yet most women were not killed, and what you would define as abuse we have no way of knowing if 1000 years ago that’s true or not. Life sucked for everyone, not just women. Stop trying to turn it around and expect sympathy for women when none is given for men, that’s nonsensical. No, you can go around chasing whoever you want, just stop complaining about getting used and get used to sharing. The rest of us are increasingly going to cash out of this game altogether as it’s obviously no longer worth the frustration and sadness it brings trying to convince a woman you are worth her time and attention as an average man. We need to find things to center in our lives that are not immutable and subjects to the whims of cruel individuals.

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No, sometimes your body just knows someone isn't right for you. That can be a biological thing (you have incompatible genes) or your gut knows this person wouldn't be a good partner for you or with you for what ever reason (incompatibility possibly).

I do think it depends on the individual. Some women and men have unresolved trauma and they aren't aware of the pattern. Some people have worked on it a lot and can recognize the signs that something isn't a good fit.

What I have noticed is average and sub average looking people are way, way too demanding and picky and entitled about looks... I see too many sub par women aiming way too high. I can only speak about women as a woman, but yeah, this is the biggest issue. Strangely, the most attractive women often date the less hot men but the uggos seem to only date or want to date men who are more attractive than them. It's so bizarre. I am begging you hot men to stop dating these girls please.

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I live in the Islamic world where people aren't really even dating... but the effect can be felt here too. I think it's just due to media and university education. I really think that just watching tv and smart phones etc can warp a girl's perception about how her life should be (she needs a husband who looks like that, a lifestyle like that), and on top of that now they delay marriage and inflate their egos even more with these useless degrees... like very homely girls think that they're too good for any guy, and if they agree to "settle" (for a guy who is actually above her station anyway) she still treats him like shit because her perception is that warped. Thats why in my house we don't watch tv or movies. It was very clear to me that even just one tv show would warp my daughter's mind permanently.

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