The “modern woman” is changing, and the “modern man” needs to adapt to the change

wtknight · 2023-03-26T03:09:28+00:00

Flaired CMV as this post is making an affirmative claim

Think_gawd · 2023-03-26T14:09:25+00:00

I'm sick of this bullshit gaslighting statement "mEn ArE nO lOnGeR NeEdEd..

How the fuck does that make sense?? How many of y'all are farmers, carpenters, plumbers, line repairmen.. If all men stopped existing women would be completely fucked. When you say you dOn'T nEeD mEn what you're REALLY saying is that women can get away with having 0 obligation to the society that provides all the material needs via private contractors through the economy.

Women don't need men as long as they can have basically all their needs provided for ALREADY by a group of essential MAJORITY male laborers in a society. And they take that shit for granted to, can't make this shit up.

SwaySh0t · 2023-03-26T03:18:10+00:00

The issue is women still hold men to traditional standards: she expects him to court her and pay for the dates, she still expects him to be taller, earn more, protect and provide for her etc…and most men are ok with this expectation on some level because this has always been thing in one form or another. But when you flip the script and the guy asks what does he get in return??? he realizes that he’s getting less than what his father got and his father before him. This is where the chasm between the sex’s lies. Women want the privileges/perks that traditionalism and modernity provides for them and none of the drawbacks. But men are changing and adapting by only seeking short term flings because the incentive for long lasting relationships is no longer there. The standards are higher than they’ve ever been but the incentives is the lowest it’s ever been for men. High risk, low reward.

WowYouMustBeJoking · 2023-03-26T03:56:58+00:00

I think some of this rhetoric is in response to economic anxiety young people are facing, especially in the west. In reality the vast majority of us need another working partner to afford a down payment and a mortgage. And even then things are tight. If you want to have kids and both partners are working, especially without much support near by, everyone’s probably going to be at max capacity when the kids are young. The expectation now is both adults should be able to fill each others roles, if need be. You can take the lead on some household tasks but realistically dad should be able to jump in and know the kid’s routine, and both partners should have a working idea of how the finances should be managed and be able to stick to whatever budget is necessary to stay afloat. A lot of what you hear on Reddit, especially in the relationship subs, is what happens when one party is failing to pull their weight, or at least is perceived to be failing. In reality I’ve seen successful relationships with completely different dynamics, but generally plenty of teamwork. But it’s hard out there. In some ways we have a lot of advantages over older generations, especially women and to some extent POC. However obviously not everything is perfectly equitable. On the other hand we’re earning more money, and obtaining higher levels of education, and that money and experience isn’t taking us as far as it took our parents.

HazyMemory7 · 2023-03-26T03:34:42+00:00

This post commits by far the most common fallacy committed in this sub:

Not realizing that while the average man is not impressive and needs to step up, the average woman is equally as crappy a dating prospect and also needs to step up.

Maffioze · 2023-03-26T09:36:37+00:00

You're missing the main source of frustration:

1) Some men will never be wanted no matter how much they self improve

2) The average man is expected to self-improve way more than the average woman. I have had multiple people on this sub tell me that its the same since women also have to improve their looks. While that is true I think its nonsense to see these things women have to do as equally difficult as those things that men have to do. There are also women who do these things that men do and who self improve a lot but they do that because they wanted to themselves and not because it was expected of them.

Safinated · 2023-03-26T02:54:19+00:00

Its been like this for decades, and the conclusion is that “modern men” are uninterested in adapting and changing. Ergo, red pill, Andrew Tate, MGTOW, etc

Capeninja · 2023-03-26T03:49:08+00:00

That's only one of three problems. Modern women:

Have higher standards than before, as you say.
Do not fully elaborate on these standards. They typically only give advice on how to be a nice boyfriend guy, and not about how to be a sexy hookup guy. They often even shame guys who try to teach guys how to be the latter. This is problematic now because people settle down into marriages much later than in the past, and are expected to build experience playing the field beforehand.
Themselves offer less of what men want than before. They aren't as feminine or chaste, they certainly aren't as submissive, and the amount who are overweight keeps rising. And on its own that would all be fair to accept, but on top of it women still expect tons of traditional behavior from men (being confident, working out, approaching and breaking the ice, planning the first date, paying for it, physically escalating up to the first sexual encounter, etc.)

This all blends into an environment where it feels like you're doing more for less and not even being properly told what it is you should be doing.

midwesternMD · 2023-03-26T03:30:26+00:00

Meh. Agree that the modern woman is changing. Disagree that the modern man needs to adapt to the change.

Modern men and women are changing together. And they’ve changed together. In other words, modern men have been adapting the whole time.

To your credit, I agree that men who aspire to be in relationships should work on making themselves more desirable to the women they want.

The counterpoint is that women who aspire to be in relationships should similarly work on making themselves more desirable to the men they want.

One thing that I don’t think gets discussed adequately is: what do men and women generally want? And are those wants compatible on a societal level? And are those wants compatible with a robust and stable society?

DicamVeritatem · 2023-03-26T14:30:50+00:00

Or not.

For most men, the cost exceeds the benefit.

EulenWatcher · 2023-03-26T02:51:34+00:00

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VehementlyDrawn · 2023-03-26T11:36:05+00:00

The modern woman is lowering in value and men don't have to do jack shit. I will keep pumping & dumping women until I find a unicorn who isn't a misandrist.

gate18 · 2023-03-26T03:52:32+00:00

When modern people talk about mid-late 1900s people, they are talking shit.

When modern man talks about how easy mid-late 1900s had it - they are talking shit.

u/SwaySh0t wrote

The issue is women still hold men to traditional standards: she expects him to court her and pay for the dates

Fuck her expectation!

Try that. Fuck her expectation. But nope. Men also feel as though their dicks would fall off if they do not hold the traditional courtship. It takes two to fucking tango. We have taken their right to abort, but for some reason we give a fuck about their expectations when it comes to courting ha.

So why are forward women called sluts I wander? A lot of those high-body-count women must be asking for it, or at least not making the man work hard. But why are they sluts? Men, for example have high-body-count (probably for the fact that they keep asking for sex) and they aren't called sluts - Evolution doesn't prevent us from calling men sluts, why don't we?

And since the modern woman is one that is much more independent, and doesn’t need a man, then the modern man will have to adapt to that instead of trying to revert women back to traditionalism.

It sounds odd. As if modern man is born traditional and needs to worked hard to adapt.

Like your phone, your xbox, your porn, are all traditional but for the sake of women you need to work hard to adabt to 21 century?

How can anyone say a 20-year-old needs to adapt and not be like he was in mid-late 1900s?

That's why I think these men are puppets in string. You have Tates and Pertersons getting rich on telling these young men how they should be like mid-late 1900 men - ignoring the fact that most of those men lived a shit life. Not only did they not have xbox, instagram, gyms, pornhub, but they also dealt with meaningless wars and extreme poverty. But now, they were proper men unlike that fat celeb that wears a dress. Our society is therefore in decline, in times when men were men and our fat-dress-wearing-"men" went to gas chambers, those were the glorious times.

You do not want mid-late 1900s' man's life. You just do not. Not even his marriage life.

But we seem to glorify the past - which is understandable, you can pretend it was however you want it to be. You went to work and you supermodel wife waited for you with open arms, ha

Khabeni412 · 2023-03-26T12:20:53+00:00

So men have to be responsible and women don't? Women haven't changed. They still expect men to be providers, pay their bills, pay for dates, be tall, approach them for dates and repress their emotions. Happy wife, happy life, right? Women need to stop abusing men and realize what most nice girls do is abusive. You have no idea the pressure men face in western society. Everything is "misogynistic" now. Women complain men don't approach them anymore. But when an ugly guy with no money approaches you, you cry rape. Only tall, handsome, rich men, right? 75% of women's dating profiles are liked by men vs 35% of mens dating profiles liked by women. Women always complain about men being superficial. When women are much more superficial. But women are aloud to expect things from men. But once a man wants a particular type of woman he's suddenly misogynistic. Women have WAY more privilege than men in western society. Only discrimination against men is socially acceptable and even enforced by the government. Women can't do anything wrong, right?

reddishrobin · 2023-03-26T04:38:16+00:00

Men in this sub: I want the old days back where women had to accept and marry a man she wasn't sexually attracted to just so she wouldn't starve to death, and casual sex was barely a thing.

anonymousUser1SHIFT · 2023-03-26T05:40:27+00:00

The "modern women" is preventing change in the "modern men".

Implentofhell · 2023-03-26T03:45:45+00:00

Yeah we do have to be better. Better than this country and go overseas.

WilliamWyattD · 2023-03-26T03:20:18+00:00

This misses the point, though. Men back then did need to self-improve. But it was about career and success. Men worked hard at life; as hard as women.

Now, if the point is that men need to adjust their efforts now, great. More here, less there. BUT women seem to care about what they used to care about AND now care more about a bunch of things they cared a little less about back then.

So the point is that greater female sexual leverage cannot be allowed to manifest unimpeded through a market dynamic to basically force men to work harder than women overall if only to get a woman at all, and usually one of a lot lower relative mate value (as determined by rankings within the respective genders).

Existing-Sign4804 · 2023-03-26T04:56:28+00:00

The modern man does not need to adapt. An average man should be able to get an average woman.

Also, women still expect many traditional things from a guy ie that he makes more than her, taller, stronger, protecting, smart, leader, etc while also not wanting to do her part of a traditional woman.

So yeah, if the average woman does not see the average guy as a suitable partner, then the problem is women not men…..

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2023-03-26T02:45:28+00:00

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2023-03-26T14:22:44+00:00

If modern women are so independent, how come men are still expected to approach, impress her, pay for dates in most cases and so on, while she sits back in judgement and tries to decide if he is worthy of her time? Why do so many first dates feel like a job interview where the man is the job applicant trying to sell himself to the woman and prove what he brings to the table while she just sits back in judgement and just has to show up?

You are wrong about the past too! Men in more traditional times could not just get a woman for simply existing. In more traditional times, you had to prove yourself to your potential wife's FAMILY and often ask her FATHER for her permission to propose to her. I would argue that men had to have their shit together much more in the past than they do today... and they are STRUGGLING today. Why are they struggling now? It isn't because they aren't stepping up, it's because modern women have become so off-the-charts narcissistic that they are literally impossible to please.

If too many guys seem like they don't give a shit and would rather watch sports or play video games, who can blame them? It's not because they prefer to do this, it's because they see the writing on the wall and no longer want to play a game that is set up for frustration because nobody wants to tell modern women the uncomfortable truth that THEY are the problem!

Also, let's not forget that modern women are only independent because they traded being dependent on one man for being dependent on the state or modern society. The dirty little secret that feminists don't like to realize though is that it's men who do most of the hard, dirty, dangerous work that enables modern society. You never think about it because you've never lived without out it and it becomes yet another form of entitlement.

It's largely men who dig trenches underground and work on repairing electrical lines in horrible weather so you have plumbing and electricity.

It's largely men who fix your car when it breaks down or needs an oil change so that you can drive to your yoga class or pedicure appointment.

It's largely men who die in industrial accidents or suffer long term medical complications from working in crappy environments

It's largely men who program, run and maintain all of the social media apps you can't live without.

Women CAN do all of these things and with hiring quotas, they would be MORE THAN WELCOME to apply! They CHOOSE not to! They aren't interested and they self-select themselves into an office job, trying to become a social media influencer, a retail worker or doing OnlyFans.

If there were a hypothetical strike where men simply stopped working today, society would grind to a halt before tomorrow and feminists like to ignore this while they pretend they are so independent.

No-You7911 · 2023-03-27T15:20:22+00:00

And this mindset has seriously backfired in general. Why?

Generally, men are just opting out of relationships all together or looking for women who still prefer more traditional relationships.

Considering the latest study showed that 50% of all dating age women by 2030 will be childless and single and also overall college admissions for men have been drastically reduced, it has become obvious that men again in general just see no need to "improve" for a relationship they see no real benefit in investing their time and energies into.

This trend is likely to get much worse and not better. Look at the current social media blitz against "passport bros". These are established, relatively successful men that want those traditional relationships but have just bypassed "modern" westernized women in favor of looking internationally for traditional wives.

In reality, men have adapted. They just opted to seek wives and relationships with women that are compatible with what they want and not pursue "modern" relationships.

The other men have just decided relationships aren't in their life goals any longer. They are choosing to work on their individual wealth and lives and choose not to share it in a relationship. They are generally happy with the current hookup dynamic that's developed. These tend to be the guys modern women chase but they never get the outcome they hope for.

Unlikely-Strategy596 · 2023-03-28T23:37:52+00:00

They’re not changing you just expect more than you can provide.

Aubrey_D_Graham · 2023-03-26T05:07:44+00:00

Why do men need to convince modern women to go back to traditionalism? It's a losing proposition. Quoting Reverend Cole, "Don't save her, she don't want to be saved."

Gari_305 · 2023-03-26T03:23:56+00:00

Modern men are adapting u/thefreedomjourney by not playing the field and going to other areas.

This modernity that you speak is not really new many men from centuries past had to venture to other countries when the women in their native lands became unbearable. This is no different.

Women have every right to become strong, independent and masculine as they want, however that does not mean that men should be shackled with them.

We also have the right to leave also.

KayRay1994 · 2023-03-26T13:52:53+00:00

that’s kinda it - i notice a lot of guys on here get super pissy about the whole “i don’t need a man” phrase but what they kinda miss is that “i don’t need a man” =/= “i want to avoid men for all of eternity”, what she’s saying is she wants to WANT a man, rather than need him.

Then again, wanting someone and needing them are inherently different as in order to literally need someone for your daily survival, one side’s value is entirely based on what resources they can provide. Now, men no longer need to provide and ‘hypergamy’ is dying down as household incomes are getting more equal, and more women (18-35 primarily) only really ask for a man to be within the same income range… which is fair. However, many men struggle to be anything other than a provider - and i think that’s where it becomes a mess.

Learn to be in touch with your emotions, be someone outside of the material world, develop an internal set of values rather than projecting them onto others, learn how to have fun, groom and take care of your appearance, learn how to present yourself, re-examine how you view your masculinity cause if your entire masculinity relies on taking autonomy away from her, then that’s where it becomes toxic

Substantial_Video560 · 2023-03-26T09:16:32+00:00

100% agree! Men need to redifine their character and sense of purpose in this modern age.

Men need to focus more on themselves and less on seeking validation from the opposite sex.

In the past both sexes were expected to get married and have kids but that's not happening so much anymore. Women are becoming more independant and career focused and no longer need to have kids, get married, date or have relationships at all.

Men on the other hand have been left behind. With these centuries old constructs gone men are rather lost, so men need to change and start looking for new ways to live life in this ever changing world.

Useful-Indication225 · 2023-03-26T07:41:18+00:00

True, but the flip side of this is that most modern Women aren’t worth the effort.

If you think most guys are becoming the best version of themselves just to get a chance with a entitled landwhale then you’re not living in reality.

WowYouMustBeJoking · 2023-03-26T08:23:18+00:00

then the modern man will have to adapt to that instead of trying to revert women back to traditionalism.

Why not? After all, they didn't ask women to change.

MotleyCrew1989 · 2023-03-26T11:33:09+00:00

Honestly, I couldnt agree more.

Men need to stop with the protect and provide bullshit.

Dont pay for womens expectations and demands. Dont use your hard earned money to finance her dreams and goals, let her strugle the same way you do.

And most important, dont protect them anymore, from themselves or others. Dont put your health on the line to play the hero. If you see a woman getting assaulted, just call the police and dont intervene. Your life does not have less value for you to throw it away trying to protect hers.

After all, remember they have empowered themselves, they spent the last ten years saying they dont need us and that they can do everything we do. Now its time to let them prove it.

EDIT: mobile formating is horrible.

fuchsiaeuRIor4683 · 2023-03-26T11:37:48+00:00

And since the modern woman is one that is much more independent, and doesn’t need a man, then the modern man will have to adapt to that instead of trying to revert women back to traditionalism. For some guys, it may mean learning how to be more in tune with your own emotions, maybe it’s losing/gaining weight, maybe it’s learning to socialize and bettering your humor.

You want us to clowns to dance in front of women see which one of us she likes the most. No thanks we can get traditionalism back if there a biggest movement for it.

Longspkdiamond · 2023-03-26T03:21:40+00:00

Men in the past didn't have to "self improve" because their fathers, family, society, the tribe, church, military, male-only spaces, etc. formed them into proper men. Modern men almost completely lack that guidance. Women's requirements haven't changed much.

AdAromatic8989 · 2023-03-26T10:54:13+00:00

No it's the other way around. Enjoy

MxMaster9907 · 2023-03-26T15:46:12+00:00

Couldn’t have said it better. Men here don’t want to adapt, they want a gf without doing the work

ComfortableOk5003 · 2023-03-26T17:14:55+00:00

Here’s the thing though…. Men are speaking by wifing up women less. By going elsewhere.

Modern women changed cool, but in many aspects they changed into things men don’t want, like or appreciate. So you ladies changed, good for you, but men are not gonna just change cuz y’all ladies want us to, and just like women changed, in ways men didn’t dictate, ladies can’t dictate how men will change.

Women also used to overwhelmingly value marriage and commitment but the avg length of marriage now is like 7yrs…juice seem worth the squeeze?

just_a_place · 2023-03-26T18:37:30+00:00

How silly that you think we are not adapting.

For one thing, "quality women" do not exist nearly in the same abundance as in those olden times. Today's woman is an entitled, preachy, narcissistic, indoctrinated, gynocentric, and infantalized grown toddler with literally more rights and privileges than the average man. Men still have the weight of civilization on their shoulders while women get to reap all the benefits with none of the sacrifices (unless you're at the receiving end of a war such as Iraq, Syria, or Ukraine); and even then, the old prejudice "Women and then children first" ensures that women get to flee to safety and are provided for while it is the men who deal with the bullshit.

Modern women are so damned self-centered and childlike you have no comprehension that this artificial man-made world you navigate is, well, MAN MADE! The streets, the laws, the cars, the lights, the computers, your phone EVERYTHING is created, sustained, and maintained by men. Your so-called independence is a narcissistic delusion! You depend on your employer just as much as the next man. That is not independence, that's just being a more well off peasant in the greater scheme of things and then looking down on those who aren't as privileged or lucky as you are.

It is not the case that women no longer need a man, in fact, now you need literal armies of them! The ones that maintain the power grid and even build the cars you drive. The difference today is that you are disconnected from the men that you depend on through impersonal transaction. Your plumbing craps out? You no longer depend on a husband, you depend on the male plumber and the wage you pay him is the delusion that women have of having some kind of independence from him. The day when you can put out your own fires and literally grow your own food - or let's not even go that far, COOK your own food instead of having it delivered to your front door - then we can talk about actual independence.

LouisdeRouvroy · 2023-03-26T03:30:19+00:00

There's no reason why men have to adapt to women rather than the other way around.

Anyway, women change because of the modern world built by men. If that world changes again then women will change just as fast.

The issue is thus between men who built a world for themselves and men who have no place in that world.

As for women, they'll either flock to the winners or flee. As they always do.

The current issue is that the men profiting from the current world become so few that those who don't benefit start realizing that if they opt out, the whole thing will collapse.

And there's something cathartic to see people getting their comeuppance, so the average man, who gets nothing out of a system despite the fact that it rests on him, is now contemplating what to do. That hesitation is very telling so women and men if the elite are trying to shame him back to the plantation.

Taylor140598 · 2023-03-26T02:51:01+00:00

I think it’s more so about men learning to take accountability for their actions and beliefs and how they both can seriously affect others, and women learning to not centre men/the patriarchy in their lives.

whitehack · 2023-03-26T03:33:31+00:00

I used to have a friend who once said that girls/women are, on average, or have been over recent decades, getting prettier. 🤔

Shoddy-Donut-9339 · 2023-03-26T04:40:00+00:00

I doubt the modern woman is changing. Her environment is changing.

Men on their video games won’t meet women. Women like men that are perfect on the surface. But women also like non-perfect men that fit well with them. Women will never discover the man that fits well with them if the man is busy playing video games.

It takes men and women spending some time together to meet their non-perfect match that fits well with them. The perfect that is perfect on the surface can be identified much quicker but their are not enough of these perfect on the surface people to go around and below the surface these perfect looking people may have serious flaws.

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2023-03-26T04:38:31+00:00

Im all for self improvement but self improving for a woman who will see you as second option doesn't really make sense. You're better served self improving and then getting a traditional woman who's actually going to respect and honor you in your relationship.

Honest-Analysis-6127 · 2023-03-26T03:23:05+00:00

i don't have to adapt to any woman. but i can adjust myself. if a woman had her own job, own spot, her own vehicles and can cover all her bills on her own before she met me, thats cool. if she wants to be a boss chick, that's cool. she just could never be my wife. she would be a concubine, or a half wife for lack of a better term. that means i wont treat her as a wife. we can kick it. spend some time together but she would stay at her place and i stay at mine. living together is only reserved for a wife and a husband.

i would never pay her bills, im not going half on it. none of that. she's responsible for financially providing everything on her own. she want to stay ms independent then let her. that doesn't mean i wouldn't treat her to a night out every blue moon, or give her a little gift if i feel like it. but this is all once a blue moon.

a wife is defined by how submissive and obedient she is to her husband. keepers of the house, nurturers to the children. a real husband is defined as being the provider, protector.

if both sides arent in their role, then i don't recognize you as a married couple. you are just living together and sleeping with each other. it's more about sexual exchange and some emotions. that's it. thats how all modern marriages operate. there is no structure or gameplan to who should be doing what.

if you as a woman cannot let go, and lean on a good man to support you, then you got no business being with a man. cause the only motive you have for being with a man at that poin is to just smash. thats it. thats very shallow and baseless. there's no fulfillment in that. there's no growth in mariage for that. you just need him to fulfill your sexual needs. not to grow together, build a legacy. because you are ms independent and wanna do your own thing. just stay single

caption291 · 2023-03-26T15:35:32+00:00

And since the modern woman is one that is much more independent, and doesn’t need a man, then the modern man will have to adapt to that instead of trying to revert women back to traditionalism.

That's your only argument for why men should just accept the current state of women and it's circular logic. If men were to revert women back to traditionalism, then the modern woman wouldn't be much more independent and would need a man.

Title	The “modern woman” is changing, and the “modern man” needs to adapt to the change
Author	thefreedomjourney
Upvotes	59
Comments	495
Date	March 26, 2023 2:37 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1228hk4/the_modern_woman_is_changing_and_the_modern_man/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-modern-woman-is-changing-and-the-modern-man.1207953 https://theredarchive.com/post/1207953

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