Is this low birth rate something that should be concerning?

idrinkapplejuice42 · 2021-10-26T15:15:16+00:00

Social security is a Ponzi scheme that only functions with a growing population.

Eeeeels · 2021-10-26T16:02:41+00:00

Oh trust me people are still having children, it's just a lot of the people that shouldn't be. Well-educated financially secure people who would probably be able to provide well for a child and see to it that they have a quality life and a solid education aren't the people having kids anymore.

So yes, I would say it's concerning.

Creation_Soul · 2021-10-26T09:21:35+00:00

The "problem" is that nature made people like sex more than they like having children. This "problem" wasn't as obvious in the past as people couldn't effectively control their fertility.

Once technology reached a high enough level where we are able to create cheap, effective and easily available contraceptives, the "problem" became much more obvious. Still, most people will still have children at some point in their lives. But these is another issue here: for most people having 1 or two children scratches "the itch" of having children and they don't go for more. But having 1-2 children on average means a birth rate under replacement levels.

But if, on average, having 1-2 children scratches "the itch" that means that higher birthrates in the past were not due to some higher love for children, but due to lack of access to contraceptives (due to them not existing or due to cultural/legal/financial reasons).

alialahmad1997 · 2021-10-26T14:14:41+00:00

What concern me more is intelegent people having less children from less intelegent people This cause an evolutionary push toward less intelegent genes been passed

Flightlessbirbz · 2021-10-26T12:15:17+00:00

Imo no it isn’t. We are not an endangered species by any stretch of the imagination. Most people can’t afford more than two children, if that. If we want that to change, we need to see changes in the economic conditions rather than just shaming people for not reproducing. I find that most of the people flipping out about low birth rates are actually concerned about white people dying out even though they don’t want to say it.

Gravel_Roads · 2021-10-26T08:38:22+00:00

I don't think "concerning" is the right word. It's the natural result of living in a modern world where two people can have full time jobs and still not be able to properly support a household. (On top of climate change making every season a Fresh New Hell, dwindling resources, limited access to means of transportation, late stage capitalism, wide-spread disparity of means, ect ect).

If we want birthrates to go up, we have to make a world where it's easier to have and raise children. This seems to run counter to the current environment.

abqkat · 2021-10-26T11:35:55+00:00

Yet really low income families have lots of kids. It’s the more mature and financially independent adults that are not having kids.

So a lot of the kids being born are either born in less than ideal homes or with single moms. We’re going to have a large party of the next generation that is going to be kind of messed up in a lot of ways.

That’s disturbing.

Physical-Pie748 · 2021-10-26T13:37:59+00:00

we dont need more men in a bad dating world in the western countries, and women can go make a career. isnt that what they wanted? women can stay in hookup culture and have fun, all are happy. and no other men has to suffer from this bad dating world we have

gofigure62 · 2021-10-26T14:20:27+00:00

No. Mindless human breeding is a detriment to biodiversity and resources that humans need to survive.

There is no "need" for billions of human beings to exist at the expense of all other species on Earth.

The replacement model isn't a feasible solution for humanity to sustain itself.

Low birth rate doesn't mean human extinction.

However chronic climate wars, food shortages, contaminated water, uninhabitable land, and disease will lead to human extinction.

It's bizzare how people are hyper focused on birth, but don't give a damn about the resources and conditions required to sustain human life.

NockerJoe · 2021-10-26T15:49:24+00:00

The thing about the low birthrates is they're a global trend. The decline is in an overwhelming majority of countries and most experts think the human population will reach its peak within oir lifetimes, unless some external force makes having kids a better option or somehow necessary on a global scale, which is oretty hard to imagine.

Inevitably, there's going to be a point where importing people works less, because developing economies will develop enough their birth rates drop and the people left are less tempted to leave. In many cases this has essentially already happened or is already in the process of happening. For example: The number of U.S. Immigrants to Mexico has dropped fairly sharply over time and an increasingly large slice of the ones doing it now have some plans to eventually return to mexico. They don't want to be permanent imports and there arguably aren't enough of them to plug the kind of gap a lot of americans have even if they did want that.

The real fly in the lotion is we don't actually need that many people to be productive at a macro scale anymore. Automation is pretty rapidly taking away jobs and globalization is shipping just as many away to those developing countries. Having more kids wouldn't really solve any macro scale issues in most major countries that an economic rejiggering wouldn't fix much more easily.

kyjolski · 2021-10-26T20:46:05+00:00

Humans are the cancer of the world, so no, it shouldn't be a concern, it's great.

The only reason it's a concern are selfish reasons of humanity itself, i.e. governments needing more working bees to prop up their obsolete socioeconomic systems, people being scared of loneliness or a lack of purpose in life, religions needing more drones to control for their own advantage etc.

Now, don't get me wrong - it's no one's individual fault for already being here, and I believe everyone should be treated fairly and given a chance, without being deprived the basic needs (food, shelter etc). Human suffering makes me sad and a lot of it can be prevented.

I'd happily welcome a world where reproduction is low, societies change to adapt to this, and we give the planet a break before it destroys us all together. Probably too late though.

20Humble5050 · 2021-10-26T21:58:10+00:00

I’m concerned that it isn’t even lower. The population of Earth ideally needs to drop below one billion.

NarniaFox · 2021-10-26T09:09:07+00:00

It's concerning from an economic point of view and you worry about preservation of your culture/ethnicity.

I think our whole economic system isn't sustainable. We should concentrate on changing and adjusting it instead of trying to push people to have more babies, when they clearly don't want to do so and can't be easily persuaded to change their mind or without heavily violating their human rights.

Culture-wise it depends. It's sad that some ethnicities, cultures and languages will fade away, but I doubt there's anything we can do with it. People won't have kids for the sake of their language/culture, some changes are inevitable. I'm saying this as a part of one of Russian minorities knowing that most likely there won't be any native speakers of our language in 5-10 or 20 generations, as even among my peers there are few who can speak it freely and I myself can't speak it. It means that my potential kids won't speak it either.

SuperSupremeKai · 2021-10-26T09:17:52+00:00

No. Don't worry about it unless you want your family name to carry on.

SaBahRub · 2021-10-26T16:19:11+00:00

It’s not about the birth rate. It’s about pussy

Is that concerning? Probably to men; not so much to women

abaxeron · 2021-10-26T09:11:23+00:00

Is this even concerning or are we worrying about absolutely nothing?

Currently, retirement is one of the biggest state expenditures. In the US, for several recent years, spending on retirement and disability benefits was higher than on the military. Retirement system relies on having enough young employed workforce. On top of that, life expectancy climbs to absolute historical maximums. No matter if low fertility is a good or a bad thing, it struck in the (economically) worst moment possible.

We can always import people from other countries, right?

What countries?

M_LaSalle · 2021-10-26T09:28:52+00:00

Given that a low enough birth rate means the eventual end of Western civilization, yes. If Western civilization lasts beyond the end of my life (And it probably will) then it's not worrisome. On the other hand, the West is becoming a collection of shithole countries while it waits to die, and that's at least concerning.

Unwoke_WF · 2021-10-26T15:40:44+00:00

Essentially all the woke and feminist societies wipe themselves out. The gynocentric society shrinks or alternatively will start importing people from patriarchal societies, thus diluting its own feminist society. Best example is Germany with its huge migrant influx, mostly Muslims.

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-10-26T12:14:57+00:00

Depends on your views. If you're against dumb people reproducing, probably not. If you're conscious of the state of your country and realize that birthrates are important for keeping a nation strong, then probably.

DaphneDK42 · 2021-10-26T12:29:26+00:00

We can always import people from other countries, right?

Not really. At least not from your usual source countries. Almost all of Latin American and Europe are on the same track as you. So is most of Asia and the Middle East. You may be able to import people from Africa a while yet.

It is a concern. Although not super relevant to PPD. Perhaps of relevance is that women consistently on average report that they have fewer children than they would have wished. Why are women not able to have the children they want?

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2021-10-26T14:08:34+00:00

Who do you think is going to take care of you in your elderly years ? If people don't have childern ,then they will never grow up to help the aging population.

PMmeareasontolive · 2021-10-26T16:13:36+00:00

It won't be a problem. The cost of housing will plummet and labor will have increased value. Old people will be an economic burden, but kids are not cheap either. Economic analysis rarely figures in the complete cost of children because the costs come from various sources. It's cheaper some places than others, my city for example is famous for it's blunders in school funding but still spends over a quarter of a million dollars per student to send a kid to public school for a year.

AtTheEnd777 · 2021-10-26T19:33:58+00:00

We've overpopulated the planet and most people don't make good parents anyways. This is an improvement. Not something we need to worry about.

mllhild · 2021-10-26T19:46:35+00:00

Those people you inport have to come from somewhere and the only places with high birthrates are highly relious groups. Since they will bring their culture and customs with them you will see your country chamging faster and faster into a highly religious state.

Since mormons and orthodox jews are small communities and most other societies with a birthrate over replacement level are muslims, thats what your immigrants will be for the most part.

So in the end its a question if you are concerned with your country turning into a land following islamic law and customs.

Before you say that wont happen, remember that 500 years ago nobody in the USA was a Christian and tribal law reined.

As for the time spawn. Here in Germany 50 to 100 years. USA has a ocean in between and mexico, so maybe add a century or two on top.

CFinCanada · 2021-10-27T11:20:44+00:00

Not remotely concerning.

There are plenty of humans on earth. We need to decline to around 2 billion before we think about population expansion again.

Two billion is where we were at in 1900. That's how fast we bred like roaches. Think about that.

Ppdebateismental · 2021-10-26T10:01:17+00:00

We can always import people from other countries, right?

It’s definitely a option. We are already an incredibly diverse country. My grandparents were white immigrants to a predominantly white country, the future will be brown immigrants to a tan country.

CptKillsteal · 2021-10-26T13:10:46+00:00

Wasn't reducing the global population a good thing?

LJinnysDoll · 2021-10-26T15:18:24+00:00

There are literally 7 billion people on the planet. Older generations got married young and had kids because “that’s what you’re supposed to do” as well as there really wasn’t anything else for a woman to do in those times but stay home and raise the kids.

Statistically speaking, modern couples (myself included) have chosen to live together opposed to getting married and have chosen our careers, freedom, time, money, and traveling to having children.

I (39F) have been with my SO for 20 years. We are happy with our two cats, he is happy with his career, and we can do whatever we want whenever we want. He makes enough money that I can stay home and shop online, read, workout, keep the house spotless, cook fantastic homemade meals, take care of him, etc. We both like our financial freedom, sleeping in, doing our own thing, etc.

Many young parents these days have dirty houses, fly off the handle over the smallest things, often neglect their children, use drugs or are full blown addicts, live off of the government, etc. This type of thing was almost unheard of in past generations. Men took care of their families, they didn’t neglect them for drugs or murder them for their mistresses. Something was lost along the way. The divorce rate is almost 75%. Young couples do not know how to work things out. Women have children by multiple dead beat dads. It’s a mess out here.

Anyway, people will continue to contribute to the cycle of life but it won’t be me and mine. We are already living on an overpopulated planet so choosing not to have children isn’t hurting our civilization and won’t anytime soon. Most people I know these days shouldn’t reproduce anyhow as they can’t even take care of theirselves.

NoMarriageNoKids · 2021-10-26T08:55:56+00:00

Part of it is men going on strike with marriage and parenthood. The laws are tilted firmly against men and lots of men no longer want to play a rigged game where they lose everything in a divorce.

This article sums it up pretty well.

zemplis · 2021-10-26T08:18:38+00:00

The world is overpopulated already. Low birthrates are a good thing.

CimZim · 2021-10-26T09:09:51+00:00

It's only a problem if large numbers of men and women are actively invested in having children but are unable to. Then yes, it would be concerning and we could talk about the reasons plus possible solutions.

But if it's just more people deciding to be childfree and knowing that they definitely don't want kids? Then no, there is no cause for concern. It's literally just men and women taking a non-traditional path in life.

decoy88 · 2021-10-26T10:31:12+00:00

Socially/culturally for women probably yes it is, while for men it's more complicated, but would still be better.

Less people being born in western countries will negatively influence the power and influence of western countries globally and those are the countries where women have the most rights. Living in Afganistan, under Taliban does not really look like a great option for women. China, a emerging superpower currently, while probably better than Afganistan, is not that great of an option either.

Even immigration will not help much with this, since those people who come to the west will bring their old beliefs with them too. Every EU country that took a lot of immigrants also has had the number of rapes increase by a lot.

Gari_305 · 2021-10-26T12:39:31+00:00

It's concerning from an economic view as seen from the World Economic Forum

Why should you care about population decline? Fewer people are good for the climate, but the economic consequences are severe.

As seen from the Pew Research Center

The analysis suggests that the falloff in fertility coincides with deteriorating economic conditions. There is a strong association between the magnitude of fertility change in 2008 across states and key economic indicators including changes in per capita income, housing prices and share of the working-age population that is employed across states.

From a Cultural standpoint we can already see this occurring in China in which they too are experiencing fertility decline and are employing harsh measures on women in order for them to produce more babies.

Thus yes Birthrate decline is a dead serious issue one in which wouldn't surprise me when the US will also have to look at it with a serious lens

hurrem-hutan · 2021-10-26T13:24:36+00:00

yup just import people in

Internal_Ad242 · 2021-10-26T13:28:39+00:00

With the amount of debt the U.S. has, yes.

DonBullDor · 2021-10-26T13:51:40+00:00

Yes if you want your retirement money

SylvestorTalone · 2021-10-26T14:41:38+00:00

[permanently deleted]

EstablishmentKooky50 · 2021-10-26T14:50:28+00:00

We can always import people from other countries, right?

Which countries? The majority of the developed countries are well below replacement level.

Also, have a peak at which social group/class has more children and which has less.

Yes, the birth rate below replacement level poses massive potential threats, as most governmental functions are nonprofit money grabs (healthcare, education, scientific research, pensions, defense etc..) and the resources are limited. Printing more money or increasing the pension age will not solve the problem. Migration is insufficient and unsustainable. If there is not enough active aged people to fund the social web, it will collapse.

It isn't necessarily bad, but the challanges need be adressed appropriately. I don't see that happening.

PassMyGuard · 2021-10-26T15:19:29+00:00

It may create a future labor shortage in this country, which would damage the economy, but AI/robotics probably will solve that problem anyway.

It’s honestly probably a good thing because of that fact.

manfrom-nantucket · 2021-10-26T15:29:34+00:00

It's concerning if you care about society as it is today. Personally I don't have a dog in the fight and could careless if society went extinct.

heywoodsr · 2021-10-26T17:19:33+00:00

The low birth rate is in whites only

Willow-girl · 2021-10-26T18:29:40+00:00

I'm more worried about the fact nearly half of all U.S. births are to women poor enough to qualify for Medicaid.

Undoubtedly some are simply gaming the system, but that's still way too many kids who will be raised in single-parent homes and poverty.

JudeccasSupremacy · 2021-10-26T22:50:03+00:00

Isnt it a good thing birthrates are declining during these times?

Beltadowa · 2021-10-27T05:34:10+00:00

Have you heard of climate change?

healththrow345 · 2021-10-27T11:33:50+00:00

Just means less young women in the near future who all ages of men will be fighting for.

Super-Peoplez-S0Lt · 2021-10-26T08:47:06+00:00

Not really given low birth rates are often sighs of positive economic development.

daniellederek · 2021-10-26T10:48:14+00:00

Nah, there's someone dirt poor on the other side of the world with 9 children, it balances out

TheOnlyDijaini · 2021-10-26T16:36:30+00:00

To me, this is a good thing. We are on the cusp of curing senescence and all the problems that come with it. Lower birth rates mean less overpopulation.

Sen_ri · 2021-10-26T11:28:32+00:00

It’s a problem to xenophobic people it seems because they think having more immigrants will make the country worse because it’s not the same or something. US is built off immigration so I don’t see the issue here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/technology/replacement-theory.html

superlurkage · 2021-10-26T13:52:45+00:00

It’s concerning but not catastrophic, and solvable if we want

Here on PPD it’s codespeak for women to fuck more or the Muslims will come

In other words, the same old whine about women not fucking and breeding and being too picky

Artistic_Guest4386 · 2021-10-26T16:11:39+00:00

NOBODY actually cares, in a nutshell its just losers going "You should have sex with me, Mr below average, because otherwise low birth rate!" They don't actually care, they're pathetically trying to get sex via rationalizing which we know doesn't work, you can't negotiate attraction.

Pablo_el_Diablo88 · 2021-10-26T12:00:06+00:00

Not at all: living in the "Western world" implies a steep decline in births after a big economy spurt like the 1960 to 1980 one. Here in Italy, for example, the IRS already knows that in 19 years from now there will be 1/6 population less than now. I wonder how pensions will be paid though...

Teflon08191 · 2021-10-26T17:59:14+00:00

It's not so much the low birth rate that should be concerning as it is the average IQ of those doing the most breeding.

The intro to the movie Idiocracy covers this pretty succinctly.

Barneysparky · 2021-10-26T12:35:19+00:00

The same people who complain about the low birth rate (in the west) are people who tell others not to have children they cannot afford.

The earth can not afford more people. If I was dictator birth control would be in the water.

HewTheSlew · 2021-10-26T17:59:04+00:00

Isn’t the world overpopulated?

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michael1962-01 · 2021-10-26T10:42:34+00:00

My Ltr does not want any. Not into this world.

FabulousFuchsbau · 2021-10-26T10:45:03+00:00

Husband and I plan on having at least one more child after the birth of our first child. That’s it. After that I’m either going to have tubal ligation done or have a salpingectomy done.

silent36 · 2021-10-26T12:30:07+00:00

Nah only for the government and GDP. But they better make robots or better incentivize manufacturing work.

boundarychimps · 2021-10-26T13:03:53+00:00

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/population-growth-rate

The US population is still growing, although rather slowly. I've heard that it would be shrinking if not for immigration, but a couple minutes of searching didn't turn up the right data to check that.

Hopefully we'll have finished designing our robot ~~overlords~~ caretakers well before things accelerate to the point that we run out of young people.

greenjoe10 · 2021-10-26T13:08:45+00:00

I've always believed we are overpopulated, I think the real concern is: People in a place to make that assessment and choose not to have kids have 0 effect on the huge swaths of people being born every second.

Kaisha001 · 2021-10-26T13:42:06+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJDcoqrh1ac

Pastelitomaracucho · 2021-10-26T14:53:04+00:00

> Is this even concerning or are we worrying about absolutely nothing?

For you as a person? Probably not. There's nothing you can do about it besides preparing yourself, if you can, for a world where retirement or cheap retirement will not exist.

>We can always import people from other countries, right?

Not at the necessary amounts to ensure replacement. And even then, when you import people from other countries and give their daughters an education, the fertility rates drop drastically again.

Humanity as a whole is expected to experience population decline worldwide in this century and the next.

higherpublic · 2021-10-26T15:18:23+00:00

What a weird set of responses to this thread. A lot of anti-natalism and anti-humanist sentiment. Accusations of this being of concern mostly for racists or caucasians (really? Is that really how far your thinking goes?)

Let me break it down for you: yes it absolutely is worrying. We’ve never even considered that this could be a possibility, yet we’re seeing more and more evidence. All these people are just rationalizing this away to cope.

We are animals. We have always existed with the imperative of reproduction. Everything we do is laced with the valence of having sex, or surviving longer to have more sex.

If birth rates are going down, we need to figure out for which segment of the globe, how quickly, what the causes are, and whether they are permanent.

If we do not, we risk depopulation to the point of extinction for starters because while there are billions of us, it is overwhelmingly generally far quicker and easier for people to die than to survive long enough to reproduce (especially as technology and wealth affords more and more people greater and greater power previously unseen to most individuals), and if we get to a population small enough, extinction is quickly guaranteed even if we don’t reach 0 due to a lack of genetic diversity.

If you at all care about your children, the prospect of having children, your lineage, your legacy, humanity’s progress, or anything beyond yourself, chances are that you should take this problem seriously.

Ohmaygahh · 2021-10-26T15:52:00+00:00

The younger you are, the more concerning it is. This will have a large impact in your life on multiple levels. It will have profound tangible repercussions as you age. Society and social services was structured with the assumption that the population would ever be increasing.

The breaking of that assumption is going to cause a gigantic change in policy, society, dating (family formation), basically its effects will reverberate through time.

Yeah, it's important.

analt223 · 2021-10-26T16:15:23+00:00

The answer is yes. We have yet to really see how an economy works with an aged population. Economies need to focus on youth, as parents are willing to spend on their kids' lives.

And to bring up the eventual "immigration will save us". Uh...this problem is world wide for the most part. Who are you going to immigrate?

purplish_possum · 2021-10-26T16:43:06+00:00

AnonymousAndy2018 · 2021-10-26T17:12:44+00:00

Yes it is, racially speaking. Demographics is destiny.

SylvestorTalone · 2021-10-26T18:58:50+00:00

It is if you care about your civilization collapsing.

ThisBoringLife · 2021-10-26T19:10:12+00:00

Concerning for society, although not necessarily for the human race.

From what I've looked up, we're getting an ever-growing group of retirees who have to be supported, an extended lifespan to support them for, and less people in the generation coming to support them. Social Security in the US might not be possible in the coming decades.

I've also heard about a global decline in fertility, but that may not be directly related to most explanations provided for the childfree group.

LowCreddit · 2021-10-26T20:03:12+00:00

It would be ok if the USA weren't importing a new slave class of non-citizens while standing at the brink of racial tensions breaking our society. If we were like Japan and just letting the population decline, then it wouldn't be the major problem it is in the USA.

That said, in the long term, we would have to go back to replacement level reproduction. I think this would naturally happen if the population were allowed to decline, naturally raising wages and lowering housing costs.

CatchPhraze · 2021-10-26T20:55:27+00:00

In immigration nations its fine, it's the culture. In Nordic countries and japan its going to be a disaster.

BMTEJ · 2021-10-27T07:05:30+00:00

The birth rate declining is specifically only concerning for the economy if we stopped importing workers who will have kids to feed into the low wage jobs and social security system.

Until then, we're cherry.

Vaudeville_Clown · 2021-10-27T13:50:59+00:00

Only if you care about the longevity of nation state cultures.

WilliamWyattD · 2021-10-26T11:05:39+00:00

Unless one is a nihilist and has no concern for the state of humanity after he or she is gone, then of course the low birth rate is a major issue.

It's unclear what the ideal world population level is at a given technology. But that is beside the point. Whatever population you desire, once you get there, you still need a ~2.1 birthrate to sustain it. Otherwise, the number goes to zero. Extinction. End of the story. And it goes there faster than you think.

The second issue, even if you think a lower total population is ideal, is that if you drop the population levels too quickly, we end up with a period where there are too many dependents for the number of productive members of the population. This puts enormous pressure on the workers we do have. Robots might change that equation, but we are dropping faster than the robots come online.

Immigration can only buy time. The trend around the world is that even the higher growth regions are tapering off their growth rates and may go into decline much faster than we think. There is not some unlimited supply of humans to compensate for low birthrates in dependent countries.

Furthermore, massive immigration rates can put enormous pressure on the finances and culture of a nation. You cannot, say, immigrate 10% of your population every year and hope to maintain stability.

So yes, a sub 2.1 birthrate is a death sentence. It's just a matter of how long it takes to be enacted.

jayval90 · 2021-10-26T22:10:16+00:00

People (especially women) naturally like to have babies, and considerable effort is spent trying to convince them to not have babies. It is absolutely concerning not just from an economic perspective, but also from a societal and cultural one as well. Valuing children is very closely tied to valuing humanity, and a culture that places little value on having children places little value on humanity in general. Maybe more babies should be aborted. Maybe more babies should die before they negatively affect the planet. Maybe that disaster was a good thing because it killed off people resulting in a less negative influence of humans.

Whether or not you yourself agree with the sentiment about humans being a net negative, I think everyone can agree that it's "concerning."

Expensive-Guitar3609 · 2021-10-27T17:22:19+00:00

Women get fat when they have kids, I don't want my fiancee to look like a hippo? That would kill our sex life.

Also, I want a new bike and travel around a little more.

So no, se are not having children anytime soon despite all her rants...

Title	Is this low birth rate something that should be concerning?
Author	OldSimpsonsisbetter
Upvotes	46
Comments	502
Date	October 26, 2021 8:16 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/qg1q2h/is_this_low_birth_rate_something_that_should_be/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-this-low-birth-rate-something-that-should-be.1081763 https://theredarchive.com/post/1081763

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