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[–]chevalier_d_eon1318 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It means that "I don't want to take responsibility for my words or actions"
[–]Weirdo42092 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This should have more upvotes economy of words man
[–]rogersmith2570 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
^ ^ Economy of punctuation. ^ ^
[–]oneiorosgrip66 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
hijacking this comment to point out that this post has been brigaded by againstmensrights.
Screenshot to avoid linking to the sub.
http://i.imgur.com/j3mJXN7.jpg
[–]KTY_39 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Wait, there's an againstmensrights sub now? Wow, these people truly are the scum of the earth.
[–]Levanon2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sidebar:
This subreddit is for exposing the hate and bigotry of the so-called "men's rights movement." We comb the internet for egregious examples of hate and post them here -- whether it's cissexism, homophobia, or misogyny, it's posted here.
We are not against the concept of men's rights, we are against the "men's rights movement" -- if it can even be called that.
[–]KTY_8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
We are not against the concept of men's rights, we are against the "men's rights movement"
I don't get it. What's the difference? One of the two actually fights instead of letting others step all over it?
[–]soulcakeduck12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How can you not get it? Isn't this exactly the same thing that MRAs say about feminism?--that they are explicitly against feminism but are not against women's rights?
Your rights, and the way that a particular group believes they should be pursued are not the same things.
[–]Eulabeia2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Isn't this exactly the same thing that MRAs say about feminism?--that they are explicitly against feminism but are not against women's rights?
No, because even most feminists can admit that feminism isn't about women's rights (at least not anymore) when questioned about it. Just ask them what rights women don't have that they should, and they almost always admit that their advocacy efforts are not technically about rights.
Feminism is more about believing that we live in a "patriarchy" that functions mainly to benefit men over women, and that this social structure should be dismantled by a shift in cultural attitudes. Feminism is not women's rights activism.
[–]oneiorosgrip-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Feminism is not a women's rights movement. If it were, it would be more consistent in its advocacy.
[–]soulcakeduck3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's exactly the same argument that people are making against MRAs here.
Either argument may be wrong, but pretending it is incomprehensible just makes you look stupid and hypocritical.
[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The difference is in evidence. The men's rights movement has been consistent in an area where feminism has not; the movement's advocacy is focused on issues of adverse conditions faced by men. In a circumstance like the one highlighted in that link, even if MRAs had argued for a right to the procedure in question, they would have been outraged at seeing news of it forced on a man in the manner described in the post. Feminists actually ignored the story - in fact, the entire story of that shithole clinic - for over a year, and eventually only had something to say about it when Republicans called them out on their silence.
It's one thing to say "that's the same argument." It's another to be able to back the argument up.
Another vital difference between the two movements is the fact that while the men's rights movement doesn't advocate for anti-female discriminatory law, policy, and social attitudes, the feminist movement has a dedicated history of advocating for anti-male discriminatory law, policy, and social attitudes.
[–]soulcakeduck-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The difference is in evidence.
Good lord, fine, you're free to argue that. It's exactly what I said. The point is we agree:
Opposing the MRM is not the same as opposing men's rights, just like opposing feminism is not the same as opposing women's rights.
You're making exactly the same arguments people make against the MRM, you just only happen to believe one side is right (exactly as they do).
[–]rapscallionx1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
how about this as a difference: the MRM wants no discrimination under the law between men and women. feminism wants special advantages given to women granting them an advantage over men to compensate for an unfounded belief that they are oppressed. MRM = equality... feminism = power grab/power retention. feminism and mrm are not 2 sides to the same coin. The fact that feminists can't even grant that laws should be gender neutral says everything you need to know about their intentions.
[–]oneiorosgrip-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Actually, if one side presents evidence, and the other simply makes an assertion, the argument is not the same. I'd ask if you can grasp the difference, but you've made your intent here pretty clear - to reduce the perception of an argument founded in evidence, by comparing it to one which is not.
[–]allworkandlowpay8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Presumably, it's the same way you can be for women's equal rights, but against Feminism. They feel parts or even large segments of the MRA/MHRM are homophobic, misogynistic and hateful; presumably similar to the way many of us feel that Feminism is misandric, hateful and homophobic.
They really don't get that - the group acts on the premise that human rights issues are the proprietary territory of feminism, and encroachment on that territory on behalf of males is trespassing. Disagreement with the feminist approach to gender relations, social standards, and law and policy is seen by againstmentsrights as misogyny. The sub's whole reason for being is to act as a troll brigade in this sub.
The sub is tiny, with less than 3000 subscribers, and rarely more than 50 users on at a time, so they don't do it very well. However, a significant portion of their regular posters are also shitredditsays subscribers/posters, and when they brigade they sometimes do affect the placement of comments within a thread.
[–]soulcakeduck1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Disagreement with the feminist approach to gender relations, social standards, and law and policy is seen by againstmentsrights as misogyny.
And here, you're agreeing that "Disagreement with the MRA approach to gender relations, social standards, and law and policy is misandry." How is that different?
[–]oneiorosgrip0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Show where you can quote me saying exactly that. Otherwise, you've made a strawman argument.
Lol.
KTY_ argued that there's no difference between opposing MRM and opposing the concept of men's rights. He said:
You responded in agreement:
They really don't get that
If you did not mean to say his argument is correct, then you chose your words poorly.
[–]oneiorosgrip-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You just proved my point - you can't quote me as saying "Disagreement with the MRA approach to gender relations, social standards, and law and policy is misandry," because it's not a statement I've made. I simply agreed that agaisntmensrights has failed to understand that opposing the defense and discussion of men's rights is opposition to the rights themselves.
You've inferred additional concepts which are not contained in the discussion to which you're applying them.
you can't quote me as saying "Disagreement with the MRA approach to gender relations, social standards, and law and policy is misandry,"
Sure I can:
agaisntmensrights has failed to understand that opposing the defense and discussion of men's rights is opposition to the rights themselves.
Are you for real?
Are you illiterate, or just trolling?
If you believe what you have written, then you cannot tell the difference between disagreement with a movement's approach, and active opposition to its entire existence. Of course, I can buy that excuse, coming from an againstmensrights brigade follower.
Of course, I can buy that excuse, coming from an againstmensrights brigade follower.
Psst, I am banned from AMR ;) Hate to break your jerking.
you cannot tell the difference between disagreement with a movement's approach, and active opposition to its entire existence.
MRAs oppose the entire existence of feminism. They don't merely believe that some people or groups are making mistakes within that movement--they believe the core theories of feminism are wrong. See below the break for more.
But more: I am the one saying there is a difference between disagreeing with a movement and disagreeing with its advocacy. You are the one saying AMRs cannot oppose MRAs without opposing men's rights.
Are you still unwilling to say it is the same thing? MRAs oppose (the existence of) feminism but support women's rights. AMRs oppose (the existence of-?) MRM but support men's rights. Probably at least one group is wrong, but there's nothing wrong with their theoretical approach. An advocacy group should not be conflated with the rights or group it advocates on behalf of.
Historically, modern MRA/MRM broke away from feminist-informed men's advocacy to be explicitly anti-feminism.
Moreover, MRM's modern leaders all reject the core claims of feminism. Feminists believe patriarchal society and gender roles oppressed women (and harmed men) and that this understanding is useful today. MRA leaders disagree, from Warren Farrell (himself a former feminist who broke from the movement) whose seminal work claims male power is a myth, and feminism hurts men), to Paul Elam (the founder of A Voice for Men, who argues that women were never oppressed), to Girl Writes What who makes the same argument.
[–]Whisper1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They mean it's okay for us to have rights in theory, so long as we don't actually do anything to claim or exercise them.
[–]Levanon-10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not going to get into why the so-called "Men's Rights Movement" is a hate movement. There are examples all over our sub and the internet of their hateful ideology, and links in our sidebar to some of them.
If you want to actually advocate to solve men's issues, believe it or not, you'll have feminist support.
[–]oneiorosgrip6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not going to get into why the so-called "Men's Rights Movement" is a hate movement.
"I'm going to make an accusation and expect it to stand on its own merits, because I am aware there is no proof."
FTFY
Feminist opposition of the men's rights movement is clear evidence against that theory. So is feminist history.
Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and other suffragettes opposed the 15th amendment recognizing the right of black men to vote on the reasonable and mature basis "If we can't have it, you can't have it either!"
Feminists shamed men and boys into military service during WWII
Feminists opposed the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 until their own stipulations were added at the presumed risk of derailing its passage (or, as with suffrage, if we can't have it, nobody can.)
The militancy which "nice" feminists disclaim today is nothing new, either.
Not just violence, but possibly to the extent of murder (Clicking show transcript will open the whole story.)
Writing characteristic and shaping of the movement demonized men. The Women's Room is recognized as "a collective biography of a generation of American women" and "one of the most influential novels of the modern feminist movement." Author Marilyn French cited Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex, which treated marriage and motherhood as systems of oppression of women in which the wife is nothing more than a passive servant. French stated that men need to dominate women and insinuated that stupid men are more likely to be successful than sensible men.
The SCUM manifesto, by Valerie Solanas, labeled men biological accidents, claiming that the Y gene is an incomplete X, making men incomplete women. On that basis, the author went on to condemn pretty much every aspect of human existence, attributing all things from general human behavior (mating, trade, social interaction) to naturally occurring misfortunes like diseases to the male response to this supposed inferiority. Solanas advocated subjugating those men who would be willing to join her ranks, and systematically murdering the rest. Ti-Grace Atkinson, elected president of the New York chapter of National Organization for Women in 1967, publicly supported Solanas after Solanas shot Andy Warhol for failing to produce for her a play based on her writing. Roxanne Dunbar, founder of Cell 16, called the manifesto "the essence of feminism."
Second wave feminism is the guiding force behind modern feminism's denial of men's issues, including domestic violence and rape. The rhetoric of the 60s, 70s, and 80s led to (successful) legislative efforts to compromise men's due process rights, as demonstrated by abuse of the Violence Against Women Act, behavior which is incentivized by the practical application of laws intended to protect abused women. Recent attempts by legislators to offer some remedy to this imbalance by making the language of VAWA gender neutral were summarily shot down following lobbying efforts against the move by NOW.
[–]oneiorosgrip5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The design of VAWA is tailor-made to facilitate and encourage false allegations.
This is in part due to continued bias in research and reporting:
"Toxic masculinity" is a term that is now used in the feminist community to associate characteristics viewed as negative or possessed to a negative extreme with the human condition of being male.
It was coined in the write-up of this study, published in 2005, by researchers attempting to explain the difficulty of providing mental health treatment to male prison inmates. The term evolved from combining another term, "hegemonic masculinity" (the dominant notion of masculinity in a particular historical context) with the notion that the rough edge of that concept would include distorted or extreme versions of those traits.
However, the traits described in the article as "toxic" aren't strictly masculine traits, but traits of abusive, domineering, or dysfunction-suffering people of both sexes. The researchers, studying a gendered population, may have had circumstantial bias as an excuse for their lapse in judgment, but feminist groups claiming to understand and advocate for both sexes really don't. In order to use the term, they have to ignore that reality.
Since the publishing of that study, the term has been used indiscriminately by feminists, tossed around in debate without regard to its false nature. Subversive as it was within the research community, the further you get from them, the more loosely defined the use becomes, so that in discussion, I've seen and heard it used to label normal behavior, such as ordinary competition and having strict standards for oneself, but only in application to men. None of the researchers involved in disseminating terms like this to the feminist public has made any overt, visible effort to correct the misuse within the community. This appears to be a by-design result; an intent to imply by association that masculinity is toxic. This is the reason behind the bias in research and reporting.
How the CDC is overstating sexual violence in the U.S.
The agency’s figures are wildly at odds with official crime statistics. The FBI found that 84,767 rapes were reported to law enforcement authorities in 2010. The Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard in crime research, reports 188,380 rapes and sexual assaults on females and males in 2010. Granted, not all assaults are reported to authorities. But where did the CDC find 13.7 million victims of sexual crimes that the professional criminologists had overlooked?
It found them by defining sexual violence in impossibly elastic ways and then letting the surveyors, rather than subjects, determine what counted as an assault.
As a result of feminist advocacy, laws and policy have removed from the justice system any man's ability to receive a fair hearing in the U.S. when the allegation is rape, or equal treatment with respect to domestic violence.
How Rape Laws remove the presumption of innocence
Unequal Execution of domestic abuse laws
Often to an unbelievable extreme
Feminists have used threats and harassment to suppress evidence of reciprocity in domestic violence is one reason for that unequal application.
This includes harassment of researchers with whom they disagree, and continued suppression of evidence of gender-symmetry in domestic violence in order to reserve assistance and advocacy for women. More on that can be found in another article: Maryland Report — Domestic Violence and Male Victims
More on the feminist attack on Pizzey: WHO’S FAILING THE FAMILY.
Because of my opposition to the hijacking of the refuge movement, I was a target for abuse. Anywhere I spoke there was a contingent of screaming, heckling feminists waiting for me. Hounslow Council decided to proceed against me in court and I was packed to go to prison for most of the twelve years that I ran my refuge. Abusive telephone calls to my home, death threats and bomb scares, became a way of living for me and for my family. Finally, the bomb squad, asked me to have all my mail delivered to their headquarters.
How feminists tried to destroy the family
Meanwhile, our little house was packed with women fleeing their violent partners - sometimes as many as 56 mothers and children in four rooms. All had terrible stories, but I recognized almost immediately that not all the women were innocent. Some were as violent as the men, and violent towards their children.
The social workers involved with these women told me I was wasting my time because the women would only return to their partners. I was determined to try to break the chain of violence. But as the local newspaper picked up the story of our house, I grew worried about a very different threat. I knew that the radical feminist movement was running out of national support because more sensible women had shunned their anti-male, anti-family agenda. Not only were they looking for a cause, they also wanted money ^<sup><sup>Note:</sup> ^<sup>Link</sup> ^<sup>Not</sup> ^<sup>In</sup> ^<sup>Original</sup> ^<sup>Article</sup>.</sup> In 1974, the women living in my refuge organized a meeting in our local church hall to encourage other groups to open refuges across the country. We were astonished and frightened that many of the radical lesbian and feminist activists that I had seen in the collectives attended. They began to vote themselves into a national movement across the country. After a stormy argument, I left the hall with my abused mothers - and what I had most feared happened. In a matter of months, the feminist movement hijacked the domestic violence movement, not just in Britain, but internationally. Our grant was given to them and they had a legitimate reason to hate and blame all men. They came out with sweeping statements which were as biased as they were ignorant. "All women are innocent victims of men's violence," they declared. They opened most of the refuges in the country and banned men from working in them or sitting on their governing committees. Women with alcohol or drug problems were refused admittance, as were boys over 12 years old. Refuges that let men work there were refused affiliation.
The social workers involved with these women told me I was wasting my time because the women would only return to their partners.
I was determined to try to break the chain of violence. But as the local newspaper picked up the story of our house, I grew worried about a very different threat.
I knew that the radical feminist movement was running out of national support because more sensible women had shunned their anti-male, anti-family agenda. Not only were they looking for a cause, they also wanted money ^<sup><sup>Note:</sup> ^<sup>Link</sup> ^<sup>Not</sup> ^<sup>In</sup> ^<sup>Original</sup> ^<sup>Article</sup>.</sup>
In 1974, the women living in my refuge organized a meeting in our local church hall to encourage other groups to open refuges across the country.
We were astonished and frightened that many of the radical lesbian and feminist activists that I had seen in the collectives attended. They began to vote themselves into a national movement across the country.
After a stormy argument, I left the hall with my abused mothers - and what I had most feared happened.
In a matter of months, the feminist movement hijacked the domestic violence movement, not just in Britain, but internationally.
Our grant was given to them and they had a legitimate reason to hate and blame all men. They came out with sweeping statements which were as biased as they were ignorant. "All women are innocent victims of men's violence," they declared.
They opened most of the refuges in the country and banned men from working in them or sitting on their governing committees.
Women with alcohol or drug problems were refused admittance, as were boys over 12 years old. Refuges that let men work there were refused affiliation.
...When, in the mid-Eighties, I published Prone To Violence, about my work with violence-prone women and their children, I was picketed by hundreds of women from feminist refuges, holding placards which read: "All men are bastards" and "All men are rapists".
Because of violent threats, I had to have a police escort around the country.
This is how feminists respond to women who fail to toe the feminist line.
Even in an area of obvious need for equal treatment (the circumcision controversy) feminists have been more intent on asserting superior victim status than addressing the issue, because the issue applied to men. It's only upsetting to them when it's done to girls.
academic bias contributes to the feminist effort to control the dialogue
recent attacks on the speech of groups feminists disapprove further demonstrate intent to control the dialogue and impose a false perception.
This pattern of activism from the feminist movement is [why MRAs should distrust feminists] (http://breakingtheglasses.blogspot.com/2012/10/cant-we-all-just-get-along.html), why there is a demonstrable pattern of behavior, and why it is appropriate to view everything they do through a filter of understanding that whether "nice" feminists know it or not the movement's goal is manipulation, not reform.
[–]G0VERNMENT2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You realize that most modern feminists hate radfems and the second wave right? They are highly transphobic and have cery different views from the third wave on a lot of things. But that doesn't fit into your narrow worldview does it?
They're not doing a very good job of demonstrating either claim, considering recent public advocacy. All they've done is parrot second wave talking points and advocate for the same legal and social standards the second wave espoused. You need a better argument than "Not All Feminists Are Like That." That argument is old hat in this sub.
That is not true at all. Radfems get shit on all the time. Seriously, check out a normal feminist blog instead of the fringe ones.
Blogs really aren't viable evidence of feminist activism. Mainstream feminist groups' initiatives are, and as demonstrated in the links in the above posts, they're quite indicative of a common intent within the movement. As I said, NAFALT is not an argument that is going to fly here.
[–]G0VERNMENT3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Then those groups do not represent most feminists any more than the NAACP represents black people.
That's an even worse argument, especially considering grassroots feminist repetition of the very concepts expressed by second wave and radical feminists. Patriarchy theory and Rape Culture theory are prime examples. As for the NAACP, when there is mass resistance to it among black people who are embarrassed by its activities, you'll have half a point. And when there is mass resistance to mainstream feminism by all of the invisible grassroots feminists who are not represented by it, you'll have the other half. As it stands, you have nothing but your own wish to not be openly associated with your political associates, and you're not making a very articulate or rational argument as to why anyone should accept your assertion.
[–]G0VERNMENT1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Except third wave conception s of those are different than tjat of the second wave
No, they're really not. They're still arguing for the same discriminatory law and policy based on the same concepts, defending the same sexist attitudes toward men, and spouting the same hate-filled demonization of men. It would be nice if they weren't, but that's a pipe dream, and it would be wholly unproductive for the MRM to deal with gender issues activism as if the movement had significantly changed.
[–]Levanon0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As it stands, you have nothing but your own wish to not be openly associated with your political associates, and you're not making a very articulate or rational argument as to why anyone should accept your assertion.
Self-awareness level: Lacking.
[–]oneiorosgrip2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Replying to a discussion about mainstream activism with a link to an obscure, unidentified, short-lived blog without even any posts that are less than 11 months old and which looks suspiciously like a straw-MRA blog does not make your point. It only makes you look desperate.
By your reasoning, there is a vast feminist-led conspiracy to commit gendercide and mutilation against the male population as a whole.
<sup>*edit</sup> <sup>-</sup> <sup>accidentally</sup> <sup>a</sup> <sup>word.</sup>
[–]johnmarkley0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You realize that most modern feminists hate radfems and the second wave right? They are highly transphobic and have cery different views from the third wave on a lot of things.
Yes, the average member of the Third Wave significantly differs from the Second Wave on issues other than the one oneirosgrip was talking about. The fact that Third Wavers don't usually hate trans women has hasn't made them take subjects like battered men any more seriously. The fact that feminists will attack each other quite ferociously over some issues makes the ones they don't much fight about, like misandry, all the more conspicuous.
Actually, most do recognize battered men. Ehar they take issue with is equating misandry with the predominant social current called misogyny. They recognize that there are problems dor men in society but maintain that its patriarchy that causes them. If you walk down the street at night you are way less likely to be raped. You don't face good ild boys clubs or demeaning depictioms of your gender. People dont expext you to be someone's fuck hole or say such awful things to you. And yes men are also conditioned into gender roles, but the role of the dominate is better than the role of the dominated
[–]johnmarkley1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Actually, most do recognize battered men.
Most non-radfems accept the theoretical possibility of men being victims of domestic violence and nominally disapprove. They're still indifferent or hostile to battered men in the real world.
If you walk down the street at night you are way less likely to be raped.
The great majority of victims of violent crime are male. The most recent CDC study of sexual violence- one which feminists themselves routinely cite, albeit misleadingly- shows men and women being raped at roughly equal rates BEFORE taking prison into account, provided you don't define female-perpetarted rapes as something. Most rapes are committed indoors by someone the victim is already acquainted with, in any case. Feeling afraid (and feeling comfortable admitting to that fear) is not risk.
You don't face good ild boys clubs or demeaning depictioms of your gender.
You seriously don't think men face demeaning depictions of their gender? You're an example of why the original claim that feminism is the solution to men's problems is such nonsense: Like the "patriarchy" you claim to oppose, you're so indifferent to mistreatment of men that it just doesn't register in your awareness no matter how glaring it is. Case in point:
People dont expext you to be someone's fuck hole or say such awful things to you
No, people expect me to be someone's- or everyone's- mindless cock delivery system, consider me a defective human being if I'm not, and laugh at the very of me being raped because they can't imagine me NOT being willing to service women on demand.
[–]Whisper2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hi, SRS.
Do you really expect to waltz in here, tell us we hate women, and expect us to take your word on what our feelings are over... our feelings of what our feelings are?
Isn't this something that you fine folks, in your habitual terminology, would describe as derailing and tone policing?
[–]Levanon-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, I don't expect you to become aware of your toxic privilege anytime soon.
Hahahahahaha!
An MRA mentions our sub, and we come in here and talk about it, and that's us derailing the conversation and "tone policing"?
Protip: If you're going to throw false accusations around, I suggest you learn the meaning of the "habitual terminology" that you're appropriating to do so.
[–]3rdfloorrowdy-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because being pro rape like mras isn't scummy right?
[–]KTY_3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are you insane? MRAs arent pro rape. Where the fuck did you read that?
[–]kronox1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'll never understand this rhetoric. There has literally never been a pro rape person that has anything to do with the mrm but That doesn't stop these absolute nut jobs from making this shit up around every corner.
[–]3rdfloorrowdy-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
except you know, warren farrel.
plus you guys dont think having sex with a drunk girl is rape so yeah. pro rape.
See what I mean? Its such an extreme obfuscation Its impossible to take these people seriously. People who think this have clearly never actually looked into the issues being discussed. I just Don't understand how someone could be dumb enough to think such a big movement would have anything to do with pro-rape ideas.
big movement? hahahaha. You're "movement" is a joke.
[–]kronox3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
K.
[–]chevalier_d_eon22 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Success at last.
[–][deleted]14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's adorable. "againstmensrights"? Why don't they just call it feminism?
[–]oneiorosgrip19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
At least it's truth in advertising.
[–]arturitoburrito1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've been depressed for a week and haven't eaten since monday, now I feel so much worse knowing that there is an against____ rights group. I would feel just as sick had it been againstanimalrights...
The important thing to keep in mind is that there are less than 50 active AMR posters putting themselves up against the active users of this sub, which at any given time is at least 6 times their number. Right now, my screen says we have 372 active users, and quite often the number is higher.
There will always be hate groups. Their existence is not worth fretting over. I simply pointed out the brigade because I know their style - feign interest in genuine debate, but instead obfuscate and distract. Because of that, it's good to be aware of their presence, even if they really don't have the numbers to have any effect.
[–]HokesOne-10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
sweet tag bro. though i prefer people tag me in purple.
[–]oneiorosgrip4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's rather dictatorial of you... not that it makes any difference in my choice of tags.
[–]jundis0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I got you in red. Nice and bright.
[–]IameAuhSomme1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The sequester, man, all the periods go to the wealthy.
[–]chevalier_d_eon3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Cheers bro - I like to say things in the most simple and easy to understand manner. Means a lot.
[–]Fallout61 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hijacking this top thread to say there's a subreddit for these: /r/feministproblems
[–]J-Nice47 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I really hope thats satire, because if women think like that, we (men and women) are in real trouble.
[–]secret_tiger10114 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't think it is
[–]RahsaanRolandKirk4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You're dense.
[–]withoutamartyr2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It is.
[–]nacholibrary13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is a joke from college humor and has been posted here so many times already
[–]woodchopperak4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No it's not, here is a link to more like it.
http://oxford.tab.co.uk/2013/02/06/womcam-whiteboards-hit-rad-cam-in-radical-revolution/
[–]emu902 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
hahaha the bloke with the strap on one, I know some fellas may be in to that, but surely he was taking the piss?
[–]Sarstan1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm amused that this is his own insecurity that he's projecting on others and somehow it's everyone else's fault he feels guilty about his kink. I also can't help thinking that the girl who mentions not assuming she wants an item in pink happens to purchase many things in pink. What's wrong with that anyway?
[–]thedevguy26 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Here's a much better subreddit for these: /r/INeedFeminismBecause/
[–]Fallout10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Woah, there's a tonne on there. I'm trying to start r/feministproblems as more of a catch-all parody subreddit though, not just INFB. I just need people posting some more content. Care to help? :)
[–]notnotnotfred17 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think Feminism jumped Poe's law.
MRA's conjecture to Poe's Law(fn):
It's impossible to create a parody of feminism so violent, so radical, or so laughably absurd that it cannot be embraced by a feminist.
Examples:
Val Solanas's SCUM Manifesto was embraced as a "feminist classic"
femitheist was interviewed on the radio and presented as a "reasonable person" after she repeatedly, publicly called for the mass castration / extermination of men.
(fn) This is a paraphrasing of a comment by someone on avfm whose name I've forgotten. "Finnegan?" I can't find the link, but I'd be glad to properly credit it.
[–]MRB20125 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Given that Solanas actually went of the deep end and shot someone, I'm not so sure she was joking.
[–]MRMRising1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Finnegan?"
fidelbogen, he's got a YT channel.
[–]notnotnotfred1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Email sent to him.
to shorten and generalize the above conjecture, here named (until confirmed):
"Radical Conjecture to Poe's Law"
"It's impossible to conceive of satire that out-radicals all radicals", or
"You can't outrace a Poe"
[–]thedevguy13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sure, I'll post a few. /r/tumblrinaction would also be a good place to get some content for you.
I actually had an idea for a similar subreddit, but never did it. I was going to call it "first-world feminist problems" just to differentiate between the white suburban privileged feminists who complain that not enough movie stars are women, from the feminists who fight for equal rights in places where women do not have equal rights.
[–]hughyet0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
feminisms
[–]wolfdogrhit3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I like what you're going for but for the sake of honesty it might be a good idea to write in the description that it's a parody or something. I'm seeing a few comments just in this thread of people thinking it's real
[–]oneiorosgrip8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Cross-posting there would be interesting, but only posting there would severely limit the exposure of the image. The number of individuals in either of those subs at any given time is much lower than the number in MR even at its least busy time of day.
[–]Gothiks15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Is this..is this real life?
[–]CuntSmellersLLP4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Is this gonna be forever?
[–]weeglos3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Or is this just fantasy?
[–]seenloitering1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Caught in a landslide
[–][deleted]3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No escape from reality
[–]Suitecake4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
open your eyes
[–]Bam3597 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Look up to the skys and see<sup>e</sup><sup>e</sup><sup>e</sup><sup>e</sup><sup>e</sup>
[–]huisme1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"I'm a rich motherfucker with a fan club."
These threads... seriously...
[–]beefstickmcrocket0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm just a poor boy
[–]rofl_pilot3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I get no sympathy
[–]yaro994 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because I'm easy come, easy go
[–]FuckYeahPeanutButter4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Little high, little low.
[–]davidcwilliams3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Any way the wind blows
[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Doesn't really matter to m<sup>e</sup><sup>e</sup><sup>e</sup> toooo meeeeeee.
[–][deleted]-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
and now MR is nothing more than circlejerk.
Wow, I guess I lost this game of musical chairs.
[–]junkyard220 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because I'm easy come...
[–]capitanestevan0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Easy go
[–]Mordilaa0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Little high
[–]grantmcdowell-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Look up to the skies
[–]Arcnsparc-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Look up to the sky and see....
[–]BaffleMan-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Is this forever?
[–]rogersmith251 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Awesome. Subscribed.
[–]chevalier_d_eon1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hijack away. I think everything that needs to be said about this has fortunately been said.
[–]Slutmiko1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
/r/ineedfeminismbecause
[–]stemgang11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Guess who else is not responsible for their actions: drunk people.
Have you ever masturbated while drunk?
That's right: You raped yourself.
[–]Admiral_Nowhere3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh My God... I have been keeping myself in a closed room for years and forcing myself upon myself all those times! I am a monster!
[–][deleted]7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The sign is righteously facetious about the complex issue it's referring to. That's the problem. But the issue it's referring to shouldn't be dismissed so callously. (No, it shouldn't easily be equated with rape; no, there shouldn't be such a double standard. Not the point.)
If we jump on the opposite side of foolishness with our bias, we just perpetuate nonsense. It's a stupid sign. That's all.
[–]InglenookWyck0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But also " I don`t want to be put in a situation where I feel I cannot be truthful" .
[–]noodleworm0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Isn't that the exact reason people enjoy being submissive in BDSM couples. Except at least those people give explicit consent first =/
[–]notarapist720 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"No means no but yes also means no, Haha"
[–]nlakes509 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If you tell a guy yes but think no in your head and hate the whole experience; you weren't raped, he wasn't a rapist. You are to blame, not him.
In order to revoke consent you need to either stop all sexual acts (i.e. walk away) or (the most preferable option as it actually communicates what you're thinking/feeling) say "stop, I don't want this to continue".
He might be annoyed that you stopped half way through, but again, he is allowed to feel that, even if it makes you feel bad. Doesn't make him a rapist or a misogynist. He also has the right to never call you again.
If you don't want to say no because you like the guy and think you'll lose them if you say 'no', it's your fault if you don't say no.
[–]notacrackheadofficer361 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I knew I shouldn't eat that cake. I ate it anyway. I feel so ashamed. Stupid fucking asshole cake with it's patriarchal frosting. The cake raped me.
[–]chaos201154 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The metaphor I was thinking of.
You ask the waiter for a coke, he/she says "is Pepsi okay?" and you say yes, then complain and say the waiter brought you Pepsi instead of Coke and you're saying it's not what you wanted and the waiter is at fault.
[–]RahsaanRolandKirk-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Among the worst metaphors I've ever heard.
[–]ekaceerf38 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
sue the baker!
[–]ottothepup26 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's a lie!
[–]Bodertz14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
First time in a while that I saw that reference without wanting to punch the screen.
Oh, Portal cake!... I was confused
[–]SuperSaiyanNoob15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'd blame the 8 year old kids harvesting the sugar cane if I was you.
[–]adidasimwearing8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
arrest the baker!
[–]stemgang5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You didn't say no! That cake is innocent.
But seriously, that is the best analogy ever.
I didn't carry an umbrella. The rain raped me!
[–]McFeely_Smackup0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Do you have video of the cake rape? I'd like to watch...for science
[–][deleted]-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Raped in the FACE!
[–]MaunaLoona96 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If you don't want to say no because you like the guy and think you'll lose them if you say 'no', it's your fault if you don't say no you are a manipulative bitch who is willing to use sex to trap a guy into a relationship.
[–]Bodertz29 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
...What? Why is he trapped, all of a sudden? Maybe she's insecure and wants a relationship so she won't say no to sex. He didn't rape her, but she didn't entrap him in a relationship he didn't want to be in either.
Seriously, I can't follow your train of thought. I can understand withholding sex so he does more work (in the relationship) to be manipulative, but even that I don't see as entrapment. I have no idea how you consider not saying no to sex to be entrapment.
[–]MaunaLoona4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She's having sex not because she wants to do it but to alter the man's behavior. That's called manipulation.
[–]evilbrent1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But in the scenario, the behaviour she might want to manipulate might be his tendency to get drunk and beat up her kids. "maybe if I say no to him tonight he'll take it out on my boy" would be a feasible reason for someone to not refuse sex.
[–]MaunaLoona1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There's nothing wrong with complying with a car jacker because you don't want to get shot.
In the scenario I was responding to the woman intentionally chose to have sex with a man because she found it adventagous to be in a relationship with the man. She used sex as a means to alter the man's behavior.
I really don't see what you're trying to say here.
[–]Bodertz1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Okay, I disagree that that should be considered manipulation. But I am yet to understand why that makes her a bitch, or how he is trapped by her submissiveness.
Perhaps I am manipulating you by responding to your comment, because, though I may not enjoy this conversation, I am starved of human contact and am much more frightened about losing you than telling you to stop. You may be be trapped, though you don't notice.
[–]Hypersapien8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes, because every time that happens, it is a deliberate act of manipulation, and can never possibly be because she's insecure and scared.
[–]Surf_Science1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Whoa whoa whoa, everyone knows it is impossible to manipulate a person or for them to be passive, before or during sex.
[–]Hypersapien1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Maybe it's because I'm tired, but I can't figure out what it is that you're satirizing.
[–]noodleworm50 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have heard of situations where a guy was particularly pushy and women basically say yes to 'get it over with' because they actually fear they will be forced if they don't consent. Messed up I know, thinking you're forced to choose between crappy unwanted sex, and possible extreme violation. I guess its a result of the fact women keep being told all men are potential rapists.
[–]kragshot18 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's like the scene towards the beginning of "The Addiction where Lili Taylor gets bitten by Annabella Sciorra:
Sciorra: "Tell me to go away. Don't ask me...tell me"
Taylor: "Please don't hurt me...please...."
<Sciorra viciously bites Taylor on the neck and drinks her blood>
Sciorra after pulling away and wiping the blood from her mouth: "Fucking collaborator!"
Taylor was obviously the victim in that scene and it was very obviously a violation, but the premise of the scene is that if the victim refuses to resist the harm done to them, then they are complicit in what ever happens to them next. A vampire attack can easily be compared to a rape in that context. In that scene, there was no "vampire hypnosis" or any other deception. Sciorra dragged Taylor into the alley and took what she wanted forcibly. But first, she gave Taylor an alleged chance to prevent it from happening.
We, the viewer have no idea whether Sciorra's character would have actually ceased the attack on Taylor's character if she had actually forcefully told Sciorra to "go away." But we can discern that the entire scene is a metaphoric criticism for people being "sheep" and letting themselves be harmed rather than actively trying to prevent that harm from happening to them.
[–]wonkifier10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
but the premise of the scene is that if the victim refuses to resist the harm done to them, then they are complicit in what ever happens to them next.
Isn't saying "please don't hurt me" a form of resistance? I don't think anyone is claiming that if you don't physically fight off the person that it won't count as rape.
Sure it didn't meet the bar that Sciorra set, but I'd argue it meets the bar of what is reasonable.
[–]kragshot2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
First off, please understand that this is a philosophical discussion stemming from Noodleworm's statement about women saying "yes" to sex even though they don't really want it. Again, I have to repeat that my take on the scene from "The Addiction" is a metaphor for that situation alone.
In cases outside of "forcible rape;" if a woman says "yes" to sex, even though she does not really want it, just to get it over with, then how can it be called "rape?" In the end, regardless of her feelings and motives; she consented to the sex. You can't call it "coercion" because there was no "threat" or "harmful consequences" involved in the situation.
Isn't saying "please don't hurt me" a form of resistance?
In the general context of the film; no it is not. Begging an attacker to stop hurting you is simply an appeal to the assumed better nature of the victimizer. If you are already at the point where you have to beg, then it is safe to assume that the attacker does not have a "better nature."
But again, I was using the scene as a metaphor for women who will say "yes" to a sexual encounter, and yet and the same do not desire it. Then after the consensual, yet "internally unwanted" sex, their feelings of violation will lead them to declare that they were raped. Nobody should have to agree to sex if they don't want it. But it is incumbent upon that party to clearly and openly state their feelings on the issue.
In cases like that, the guy was only guilty of a lack of empathy because he didn't pick up on the fact that the girl was just saying yes to get him off and out of the way. Not being able to pick up on body language cues should not be a criminal offense. But in cases like this, there are a significant number of men who are being jailed just for that.
In circumstances like this, the term "enthusiastic denial" comes into play. The women who find themselves in this circumstance need to be taught to have the self-esteem to be able to openly say "no" and not let themselves feel bad for wanting to say it.
I don't think anyone is claiming that if you don't physically fight off the person that it won't count as rape.
Correct. Not everyone is a fighter. Not all people can muster up the courage to defend themselves.
Do you know how serial killers and "stranger rapists" get their victims to their "private place?" Hope. They play on the fact that most people will do anything to avoid being harmed and they play on the victim's hope that by cooperating, they will not be harmed or not harmed as much as they would be if they resisted.
I teach self-defense. In my classes I tell my students that it is easier to give up their purse, wallets, or other material possessions than to risk being harmed in a fight. But I also tell them that if an assailant tries to get them to go somewhere with them, that it is time to fight. No matter what they say, threaten, or promise; if you leave with the assailant, you will most likely not come back. If the assailant gets them alone then it is going to end with them either dead or critically injured.
In reality, whatever happens is just that. If you are attacked, you are a victim and you deserve whatever aid and comfort that you can be given; regardless of the circumstances.
[–]noodleworm4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
very interesting comparison there. Never thought about it like that
[–]brailled_stars1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In real life though, if a person were to say "please stop" - that's revoking consent in every meaningful sense.
It's not like it "doesn't count" because she was polite.
No one here is claiming that you have to physically have to beat someone away for it to count as revoked/denied consent. All you have to do is tell them no. Fuck, even if you ask them timidly and politely, that still counts.
The only exception would be dominance/submission situations where prior consent has been given and there is a safe word.
[–]kragshot1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
To repeat myself, nobody is claiming that this is the case...at least not me.
Again, my use of the scene from "The Addiction" is a metaphor for women who will say "yes" to a sexual encounter, and yet and the same do not desire it. Then after the consensual, yet "internally unwanted" sex, their feelings of violation will lead them to declare that they were raped. Nobody should have to agree to sex if they don't want it. But it is incumbent upon that party to clearly and openly state their feelings on the issue.
It was very obvious that Lili Taylor's character was a victim. But in the context of the scene, to avoid her fate; all she had to say was "Go away." It is the same thing in the specific sexual situation that we are discussing. If you say "yes" just to get it over with and you never say "no" throughout the entire encounter, then you can't call it a "no" after it is over. An evident "no" or "some sort of denial of consent (obvious fear/sorrow and/or discomfort easily qualifies in this context)" has to come out either before or during the sex act in order for it to be "a rape."
[–]TrouserTorpedo1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Taylor said "please don't hurt me", then Sciorra hurt her.
If she'd said "please don't rape me" then Sciorra raped her, I don't give a fuck if she was being a sheep or not. She was still raped.
Now to continue:
Uh...yeah. That is exactly what happened. In one context, you can say that this happened because Lili Taylor did not follow Sciorra's instructions. But that is not the context which we are pursuing in this discussion.
The point here and in the context of the discussion is that resistance requires evident and enthusiastic denial. Did you do everything that you could to prevent the atrocity from happening? Going back to the scene from "The Addiction;" all Taylor had to say to prevent Sciorra's attack was "Go away (see my discussion above on whether that would have truly made a difference)."
If a woman says "yes" to sex just to "get it over with (as in the context of Noodleworm's comment which I was responding to)" and does not in any other way project that the sex was "unwanted" then she is complicit in the consensual nature of the sex act and cannot declare it a "rape." She was as Sciorra put it; a "fucking collaborator."
Saying yes to get something over and done with is not the same as being physically intimidated into doing it or saying no in a way that was different to whatever rapey mcvampire wanted someone to say.
That's not philosophy, that's common sense. I appreciate it needs to be discussed but you can't just reframe a discussion and have any objection that doesn't fit into that frame become irrelevant.
That sounds like Sciorra trying to make Taylor say something she doesn't want to, which is not ok as it is, and then Taylor more or less telling her to fuck off. You can't intimidate someone and then blame them for being and acting nervous.
No, this is you discarding the context of the original discussion in order to make a point that nobody is objecting to. This entire thread was based upon the statement made by Noodleworm.
I take it that you have never seen "The Addiction." The entire movie is themed around the idea of the passive victimology surrounding atrocity vs. active resistance to the same. Taylor's personal introduction to atrocity was the brutal attack which led to her becoming a vampire.
The attack scene was an extreme and rather perverted (intentionally so) example of that initial point we were making.
passive victimology surrounding atrocity vs. active resistance to the same
"Please don't hurt me" is active resistance. That's pretty much the entire point.
[–]Lawtonfogle1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There is a very easy way to solve it. Lets assume right at the point that the woman decided to say yes because she was scarred, the police kicked in the door and had everything on video tape. So now, what ever the man did, was it enough to get him charged with attempted rape? If yes, then there was reason to fear for her to say yes. If no, then there was not reason to fear, and her choosing to say yes counts as consent.
Well that's coercion, not consent.
[–]CDClock-13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
one of the best comments ive seen in this sub
problems that affect men affect women which affect men and vice versa? there's a thought
[–]noodleworm3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They all affect each other, its pretty easy to point out ways things that are against MR are anti-women too. I'd call myself an egalitarian, personally.
[–]CDClock2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
it's unfortunate that many MRA's are so caught up in their own victim mentality that they completely dismiss feminism.
likewise for tumblr feminists.
edit: it's kind of ironic actually
[–]ChosenSloth-23 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It sucks so many men can't tell when sex is unwanted...
[–]Whisper5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah, damn us and our lack of telepathic powers. If only there were some way you could communicate by making noises with your mouth.
[–]lazlounderhill34 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
. . . and if you go to r/feminism and say this, you will be banned instantly, after being accused of condoning rape.
[–]thegreyhoundness11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well, I guess if THIS is their definition of rape, then I guess I do condone it. Which is weird. Cause I don't feel like I condone rape...
[–]JAMbalaya131 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You are not condoning rape, and she isn't accusing rape... WTF?
[–]tonytwotoes5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She IS saying yes doesn't mean she means yes. Therefore, saying that any sexual experience can be classified as rape if its later revealed that her yes wasn't an actual yes. Henceforth, rape can happen even if she said yes because maybe she didn't really mean it.
[–]JAMbalaya13-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You are acting as if she will always really have an uninfluenced choice... I can see your argument, but I am sick of the people who are making quick jokes about rape.
[–]lazlounderhill2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not yet, but if she regrets it later - well I guess it's entirely up to her to decide.
The problem with this is that women have to communicate how they're actually feeling
[–]iongantas2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
OMG, you're blaming the victime!!!!!!!!!!eleventyone
[–]nacholibrary1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Exactly. That's a self-esteem problem on her part. If she doesn't love herself enough to be able to walk away from an uncomfortable situation because she is afraid of losing a guy who is putting her in that uncomfortable situation, then that is on her.
Yeah, the guy may be a douche for taking advantage of such a situation, but ultimately she is letting this happen.
[–]bridgecrewdave1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No no. If he's annoyed and or disappointed you stopped halfway through he's still a rapist. Even if he isn't then the part before you stopped it still is rape. When he asked to talk to you that was rape too.
[–][deleted]-10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I thought long and hard about what you said...for about three and a half seconds, all told. Some rapes are done under threat of violence.
Really?
YOU DIDN'T THINK OF THAT?
Gobsmacked.
[–]InglenookWyck-19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What if she was drunk. Or had been pressured into it. Or was terrified for her life, or at least that there could be incredibly negative consequences for saying no.
If somone says yes, that does not mean they want you to have sex with them.
Her text in no way condones crying"wolf", as it were, for rape, for saying she was raped after agreeing to sex. Or if it is, it is certainly not only that. It condemns the social situations that make women feel as if they must say yes, for whatever reason.
Theoretically, if you were against women saying they were raped after saying yes, wouldn't you want her to say no in the first place, or not even need to as the situation which caused this did not occur?
[–]jady197116 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If she was drunk she is still responsible for her actions. Solution DO NOT GET SHITFACED DRUNK!!!! This is the law Men have to follow so why not her. If she were to drink and drive she would not get a pass so why get a pass for sex?
If every drunk guy got to call rape after a drunken night of regretful sex women would be in jail more than men.
[–]InglenookWyck-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would, personally, view it as ok for any man who had been placed in a situation, when under the affects of alcohol or other mind altering substances, where they were pressured into sex such as that they saw it as their only option and were being "forced into it", to call that rape and go through the legal channels.
The point is not that it is okay to say that you were raped any time you regretted sex. I am sorry if i did not communicate my point well enough.
If all those men who regretted their drunk sexual activities genuinely thought they had been forced into those activities no matter how many cases there were, that would be the correct circumstances to report a rape. It would be fine if there were more women in jail than men, for the crime of rape, if they were in fact rapists and had forced someone into sex.
[–]jady19716 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I got what you were saying :-)
I see "pressured" and "forced" to be very different things. If I was held at gunpoint and forced to rob a bank I was an unwilling participant, if I was "talked into it" I would be just as guilty. So a woman who was "pressured" into saying yes, still said yes. How does a man know what she is thinking? We cannot so we can only go by her words.
[–]InglenookWyck-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
=D hell yeah successful communication !
I recognize the difference, but still see a problem. How can someone know what someone else is thinking? By communication and empathy. People are not so different. But it is easy to forget that. These are human, universal. There are psychological conditions characterized in part by entirely going on someone elses words. But that isnt really the point.
s words. But that isn
The main thrust I was getting at is that the situation should not arise in the first place. which i think is part of the point of the sign. No one should be pressured into sex. Even if someone says yes they may not mean it, for whatever reason.
Ok, consent might be given and it can be argued whether pressuring someone into sex is or is not rape, but the point is, it should not happen. I would hope that is something men`s rights advocates and feminists can both agree on : no one should be pressured into sex.
It may not be okay to call someone who pressurizes someone else into sex a rapist, but it is certainly not a thing that should ever happen at all. To men or women. Down with the patriarchal idea that it is okay to pressure a women into sex, yes, but down with the patriarchal idea that a man cannot be pressured into sex at all (the whole men cant be raped idea). Certainly no one should be criticized for not wanting to be pressurized into sex or feeling they has to say yes when she they not want to. I am sad and slightly sickened that I see so many posts here saying the opposite : that it is okay to get someone to have sex with you as long as they say yes, even if they do not mean it. And I am certain they would be angry to see someone say the same thing about them.
[–]jady19713 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In all honesty, most men here would say that If he said yes it was his fault.
I do agree that coercion should not play into sexual relationships but it exists everywhere that 2 people interact on some level.
The main issue I have with your view is that "empathy" and "pressured" are very vague terms. There is no room in law for "empathy" A man may not feel like he is pressuring whereas a woman may feel pressured. It is too vague, the only way to stop this shit is to have men and women be held accountable for what they say and do.
I do not think anyone should get a free pass for not taking responsibility to make their feelings known.
[–]futbolsven3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
wait so if the question is - would you like to have sex and they say yes....this is not yes?
I am very confused.
Sorry for any confusion caused. I will try to be more clear.
The question is more like "Do you want someone who is pressured into having sex, and gives tacit or actual consent, for whatever reason, to have no recourse for being forced to have sex."
Or, even simpler, is it okay for you to force someone to have sex with you if they do not say no.
Whether they were forced physically, emotionally, legally, threatened, whatever.
If they did want to have sex and were not pressured into it and said yes, and that is certain and definite, and accuse their sexual partner of rape, then the accuser should most definitely face some kind of punishment/rehabilitation/legal recourse of some kind.
[–]notacrackheadofficer1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Anyone drunk, in a group of people doing illegal things, should never be arrested or charged with anything. They are clearly not able to consent to being a party to a crime. If someone asks a drunk female for a ride home, especially if it is a male, the female should never be charged with DUI, if pulled over. If 2 women are drunk and end up having wild sex, was a crime committed, if one of them is not entirely comfortable in the morning, with what has happened? What if neither can remember their tryst clearly? Should they both be arrested? It would be hard to choose sides in such a case. What if a drunken woman aggressively pursues sex with someone, in an unmistakably seductive way, but she handles her liquor well enough so that no one can tell she is really drunk? How can anyone prove they were drunk the night before, or a few days ago? Everyone is responsible for their actions. People can choose the tanning salon, or the jiu-jitsu school. People can study and invest in tai-kwon-do or maybelline long lash mascara. Any woman who hits young adult hood without any knowledge of self defense and saying no correctly is a problem, to herself and others. It's a scary world. Fuck the assholes who choose drunkenness over safety. They have chosen lack of safety for themselves, by themselves. Protip: Don't be a drunken idiot girl, and live a safer life.
[–]Kallistic166 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What the hell kind of sense if that supposed to make. God I wish I was gay sometimes...
[–]elverloho179 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well, it does make sense. Let me break it down for you.
[–]Kallistic88 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
INFB I've been raped before and never realized it until now! What do I do? This one girl apparently raped me for several months, sometimes multiple times in the same day before I found out she was raping me. I feel so violated now.
[–]Wolf_Protagonist79 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I was raped for five years and only realized it today. AMA
[–]notcaptainkirk73 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
LOL, men cannot be raped!
[–]GerhardtDH11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh my god! I was raped by a 40 year old woman who told me she was 37! We must have had sex about 30 times before we told me, and then we had sex many times after that. She swooned me in with a lie and I can't break free. Rape.
[–]cuteman7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can YOU retroactively claim rape?
I had no idea this person was a psycho when I had sex with them and under those false pretenses of seeming reasonable I would like to retroactively withdraw consent for the aforementioned event.
"No means no." Nobody's gonna argue with that.
Well there are cases such as rape role play. But those cases should always be extensively discussed before hand and there should always be a safe word that basically counts as the 'real' no/stop/ect.
[–]Cyridius8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
God I wish I was gay sometimes...
Don't be one of those people.
And by that, I mean don't be one of those political homosexuals. Plenty of lesbians out there who are lesbians because they hate guys, not because they like women.
[–]notacrackheadofficer0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know some who just wish they were guys, and enjoy men's platonic company. I have walked around ogling girls, with girls before. They were coarser than I.
[–]hippiechan6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's pretty sweet I gotta admit. I stay for the healthcare benefits.
[–]Stephen_Morgan2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why are the hot ones always crazy?
[–]Kallistic28 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Cause guys never tell them when they're full of shit.
[–]unaru2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
We accept new applications every day. :D
[–]AndTheSonsofDisaster1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not sure how being gay would help you. There are men who are just as fucked up who buy into this bullshit.
[–]englad-11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If she's drunk she can't consent, if she's underage she can't consent, so in those two cases yes does not mean yes
[–]Kallistic24 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So if she cannot be held accountable for what she does when shes drunk, why can he? Sounds like another double standard.
[–]PieMasterBob7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If I'm drunk and my friend asks me to drive them home am I not responsible? Is my friend guilty of kidnapping?
[–]montereyo1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm probably going to regret jumping in the middle of this, but here goes...
Consent and action are two different things. Consent is a state of mind, an agreement between two people; if you are too drunk, or too young, or too retarded, you do not have the clear and mature state of mind needed to grant consent. The same applies with signing contracts; a contract is basically a written record of consent. You need to be of sufficient age and sufficiently clear mind in order to legally sign a contract; same thing with consenting to sex.
If a drunk (I mean really, really drunk) person and a sober person have sex, both of them are absolutely accountable for their actions. The drunk person's action is having sex with a consenting person; this is not a problem. The sober person's action is having sex with a non-consenting person; this is a problem.
If both of them are very drunk, they are both accountable for their actions in having sex with a non-consenting person. This is where it all falls apart: when the law prosecutes one partner without recognizing that the other partner is guilty of exactly the same action.
My own opinion is that if one party is drunk, the other person should be held accountable for having sex with that person... but if they both are drunk, it is counterproductive to both individuals as well as to society to prosecute both of them (and vastly unfair to prosecute just one of them).
(And please not above that when I use the word drunk, I mean smashed - like, too drunk to communicate, not just a little tipsy.)
Edit for missing word.
[–]montereyo2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
TL:DR; All people should be accountable for their actions, whether drunk or sober. However, consent is not simply in action in the same way that driving a car is an action.
[–]CDClock1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
if two people are smashed and have sex then that's called life after high school not non-consensual sex imo
[–]montereyo-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Even if "smashed" means "too drunk to communicate"? Do you think a person who is that drunk still has the ability to grant consent, in your opinion?
no if someone can't even talk then consent can't be given that's sort of a given but if two people are drunk to the point of not being able to talk to each other they probably aren't going to be having sex and if they do well they should be applauded imo not treated as people who raped each other by accident
if someone can't even talk then consent can't be given that's sort of a given
Unfortunately many people do not believe this. I got into a big messy conversation in a reddit post yesterday about a person who not only did not consent, but was too drunk to even communicate that she did not consent... yet most redditors (female redditors) told her that it was not rape.
ya situations like that are pretty fucked but that's probably all we can do about them is call them "pretty fucked."
if the other person was just as drunk then well, i don't wanna get into the mess that is victim blaming but if you don't intend on having sex with someone then you should probably make that clear before getting extremely intoxicated with them. of course i dont know the specifics of this particular instance but it's sad that shit that should be common sense gets mixed up with people who say that women who wear mini skirts are asking to get raped or sexually assaulted
In this case, the other person was sober.
The whole mess made me hate the world.
I am amazed by these situations at parties where the woman is trashed beyond recognition, but the dude is sober. What planet is that?
[–]ddxxdd1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Consent is a state of mind
Lost you right there.
[–]englad1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
m... i didn't say he could
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The whole "being drunk negates consent" line would have more weight if it were ever applied evenly.
I've never seen a feminist say that a drunk man consenting to sex was raped. Even if the woman was sober.
[–]montereyo4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm a feminist. I say that.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well there's one.
In a scenario where a man and a woman are equally drunk and consent who is the rapist?
[–]montereyo0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I posted a different comment above which explains the answer to that question in more detail from my own perspective.
But in short, if they are equally drunk (really drunk - say, too drunk to even communicate) then they both cannot consent.
In that case, both of them would be guilty of the action of having sex with a non-consenting person. From a totally technical point of view, that would make them both rapists - but I think it would be totally counterproductive to seek legal action or in any way pursue that further.
Edit for link.
[–]Cyridius10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I need the Men's Right Movement because...
No means no
But to Feminists when I say no it doesn't matter.
[–]KettleCellar8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In both of those cases, it still means "yes." It doesn't make it legal, but it still means "yes."
[–]TheGDBatman1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If she's drunk, it's legal, because apparently women are supposedly fully-functioning, responsible adults. If she's unconscious, it's not.
[–]literallyschmiteraly6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Does the same go for if HE is drunk or underage?
[–]englad-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
underage yes, no idea about drunk
[–]literallyschmiteraly3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
shifty
[–]WiWiWiWiWiWi6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If she's drunk she can't consent
Bullshit. Simply being intoxicated does not mean you're no longer responsible for the decisions that you make.
If I claim I was drunk when I gambled my money at the casino, it doesn't mean I was robbed, and if I claim I was drunk when I consented to sex, it doesn't mean I was raped.
Now, if you want to say that "if she's unconscious she can't consent" then you would have a point.
[–]NeverFinishAnyMaille131 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But sometimes 'no' means 'yes' and 'banana' means 'no'.
[–]Neurotikitty69 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Just make sure you both agree on the safeword ahead of time, that's all.
[–]girlwriteswhat22 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"HAMSTER!!!"
[–]tlkuvic8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Different strokes...
[–]tossout0000001 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
ARMAGEDDON!
[–]Strange_Dragons1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Mine is "pineapple"
[–]pjwork1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"blueberry pancakes"
That's pretty long. Five syllables across two words?
[–]Domer20121 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
PINEAPPLE!
[–]Janununuh15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
CACAO
[–]nrjk2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Cacao to cacao.
[–]panzercaptain5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ribulosebisphosphatecarboxylaseoxygenase!
[–]ihatecatsdiekittydie2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oklahoma!
[–]KWBC241 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
PINEAPPLES!!!! I WANNA GO HOME!!!
[–]zialover100 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But... but... the safeword is 'no!' Next option: become a mind-reader.
[–][deleted]24 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In the Bananastand, 'no, 'yes' and 'Maeby' always means 'yes'
[–]rogersmith2520 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is really funny, but there is also a good line of truth running through your comment.
Part of the reason that Warren Farrel gets called a "rape apologist" is because he talked about a woman saying "no" verbally, but saying "yes" physically. Sometimes "no" does mean "yes". And it seems unfair to punish someone for momentarily not understanding conflicting signals.
It seems like, legally speaking, the progression from "simple misunderstanding" to "rapist" is rather abrupt and sudden.
Yeah but her brain is what give consent. Not her bodies reaction.
Yes. You're right about that.
But I'm not talking about biological reflexes. I'm talking about a conflicted person broadcasting contradictory signals.
[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah. I just wouldn't have sex with a conflicted person. If they are fighting back and forth in their head whether sex is a good idea it's probably worth just waiting or finding someone who won't have internal arguments about me.
[–]bibblyboop11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Does "yes" mean "banana" then?
[–]mods-are-super-dicks3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
banana is the safeword.
Haha! I like you
I might get some shit for this, but I think that actions speak louder than words. A sarcastic "No, this would be the worst thing in the world" followed by a smile and voluntarily opening one's legs should count as consent in the court of law.
Really, I think that consent should be determined by behavior more than by verbal exchanges.
[–]notarapist721 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sometimes banana means yes and hitler was a cool guy
"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!" ~ Samuel Adams
[–]WhiteThrone75 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
And yet, women are unable to grasp why men complain about 'mixed messages' coming from women.
Maybe, because women are sending confusing, mixed messages which baffle even themselves and men are NOT friggin' psychic. Men cannot read your mind to know what you actually mean.
Life would be soooooooooooooo much easier if women would actually use words that have the same meaning as men use.
[–]ExpendableOne45 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Frustrating about that too is that, whether it comes to dating, intimacy or sex, most women just expect men to be aggressive and assertive with them. If men don't push enough, they're gay, boring or platonic and they get nothing. So they have to be aggressive and push their luck physically, despite how it might be received, the fact that they might not be comfortable with it or how that might make them feel(especially given how much male heterosexuality is demonized and how often men are shamed for it) or, again, they get nothing(since, women very rarely make that effort/risk themselves). So, on the one hand, women(as a collective) literally force men to push physical boundaries blind(because no man will ever want to be alone, or go without sex love and intimacy, for their entire lives; which will happen to a man if he doesn't learn to "play the game") while also simultaneously shaming, insulting, demonizing and even assaulting men for doing so, and it's usually impossible to know an individual woman's personal boundaries until you actually cross them because each woman is different(also because trying to talk about it beforehand typically gets a guy rejected and labelled as a creep, or just considered to be a "mood killer"). But, really, why should men be the only ones to take that gamble? Why should men be forced into this catch-22 gamble at all in the first place? Why should men be the only ones to take on the losses, while women reap the rewards either way? That's not equality, and people need to stop just accepting this as a way of life, without ever even questioning it or seeing the harm that this causes.
[–]ChosenSloth5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I was having issues with this recently in my current relationship. It was a rough couple of weeks, but after much communication I convinced my girlfriend to be more assertive. I find that it's possible to meet the woman's expectation of male aggression without needing to cross the line, possibly through initiating foreplay but then handing over dominance to the female when things start to heat up. If a woman doesn't want to communicate her boundaries with you, there's a serious issue with that relationship.
[–]Cyridius19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Men cannot read your mind to know what you actually mean.
Wait.
I have it. Women are psychic. But they think we are too. But we're not. And they don't know that.
No wonder we get called rapists after consensual sex! They were telepathically communicating the whole time, I'm just not far enough on the evolutionary chain to get it.
Mah B.
[–]IAmConquistador5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's a scary thought.
[–]MisterFriday1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Especially if you yourself don't know what you mean.
[–]mrdizzy0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is my biggest issue with women. They feel and they think their feels are the only discernible reality.
Men seem more able, in my experience, to recognize unpleasant realities, while women demand that their feelings are met with minimal effort.
Women have a harder time with rejection. Same reason she asks if you want to go out to dinner tonight and say "Oh, anywhere is fine," when in reality she has the place in hear head already... she just needs you to guess it correctly. She wants you to validate her feels without risking you saying "Nah, I don't like that place."
[–]Nerdasaurusrexx41 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
New age feminism: Helping bring your face to your palm.
[–]notacrackheadofficer33 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No. The palm must give explicit permission first, before the face approaches it. Fucking palm raper.
[–]synnndstalker27 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Honest question - what is she actually trying to say? Is she trying to say she should be allowed to change her mind during? Is she trying to say that she might want sex but not every act of sex, and that she should be asked to consent to each individually?
Or are we to assume that she means that if she regrets doing it later, then it's rape?
[–][deleted]38 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think she's trying to say something about how she wants it known that consent under duress (gun-to-the-head, blocking her leaving, blackmailing, etc.) isn't really consent. Which is a notion I fully agree with, but doesn't really lend itself to a tweet-like format, as evidenced by the head-scratching and (presumably) misunderstanding.
[–]mister_ghost16 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Which really, no one needs feminist to tell them. That's elementary stuff.
[–]ItsObviousYouMoron3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Then why does it happen so often? Why is it still an issue?
Why the hell is everyone in this thread too stupid to work it out?
[–]HalfysReddit5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Does this happen often? It's an issue because some people are very selfish and really don't care if their pleasure puts others in pain.
And no on in this thread is too stupid to work out her message, it's just that she phrased it ambiguously and since the message she intended to communicate seems radically elementary (I mean really, this is absurdly basic stuff here), most are assuming she meant a different message.
[–]ItsObviousYouMoron-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've been straining to fit my head around that position you describe and failing. The things they're saying are not consistent with it. They're just standard MensRights subscribers: Zero understanding of what's happening around them.
[–]jenniferinalaska1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think she also might be referring to when someone is heavily under the influence. Though I still don't think that it has to do with feminism and more with equal rights, as rape is something that affects both genders.
[–]sortofheathery21 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What she's trying to explain is that sometimes women feel extremely pressured into sex that they are less than comfortable with. You're correct that it's not rape. But in this instance what feminism helps her with is feeling like she's allowed to express herself and truly say no, even when there's what seems like a ton of pressure. From the feminist side of this argument, it's not actually about rape. It's saying, in a roundabout way, what all of the comments here are saying. "Express what you truly mean, no one is forcing you to say 'yes.' You own yourself." I know, I know. That sounds like common sense. That's the point in the sign. That's why a lot of women feel like they need feminism. Just so they're allowed to actually say what they want to.
[–]synnndstalker10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you for the explanation. I hadn't thought of that.
[–]sortofheathery8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you for your open minded question. :) The sad part of the whole thing is that most of the time the pressure a girl would feel in that situation isn't even coming from the person she's with. Most men take "no" at face value and will cease to pressure or ask if it's said. The pressure comes more from societal views. There's this idea (even though it's usually presented in a joking manner, it is repeated so often that it sticks) that the more a girl says yes to in the bedroom, the more value she has, the more she's "worth." So when it comes up, she puts her own discomfort aside, afraid of devaluing herself by simply stating what she wants. The poor gentleman she's with doesn't realize that's what's happening in her head, and carries on, his own jumble of emotions clouding his perceptive capabilities. When she stops talking to him, he's confused. When she has an emotional outburst about the encounter, he feels victimized because he absolutely would have listened to "no." Now in his mind she's insane, and in her mind he's an insensitive jerk. The whole thing is just silly when you take a step back and look at it, but I've heard the exact story, from both perspectives, dozens of times.
[–]checkyourlogic5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you. Why did I have to scroll this far to find someone who actually cares about what she was trying to say instead of twisting it into some evil feminist conspiracy?
[–]HalfysReddit2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While I agree with you, I think it's a scapegoat to say that one needs feminism for this. Everyone deals with societal pressures, and no amount of anything is going to get everyone to agree with each other. We all have different opinions, different minds, and we're all obligated to co-exist with each other. Sometimes the wants and needs of one individual are going to oppose the wants and needs of another individual. Who's qualified to draw that line?
That being said, I do think it's a trivial issue in this case, as the woman in question said "I need feminism for..", and not "[Group of people] need feminism..". Although I do wish she had stated that she needs feminism because sometimes when she says yes, she means no, instead of implying that it's common or that it's the responsibility of those around her to decipher what she means instead of what she says.
[–]sortofheathery6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Perhaps we have different definitions of "feminism." To me, feminism is simply a philosophical category. It's a collection of ideas with a common theme. People are meant to take the ideas, think on them, and either incorporate them or discard them depending on what will benefit them as an individual. Sometimes groups of people are exposed to the same things and need the same ideals to help them grow past them. Sometimes, the ideas are rubbish. Sometimes, the ideas contain the same poison as the original things they were meant to counter. The individual draws their own line, and for that they are qualified. But feminism isn't a religion, it's just thoughts. And the role of feminists isn't "prophetic." There isn't a "feminist handbook" filled with all of the things each feminist has to believe and think. It's just a collection of ideas. And the goal of feminists is to keep the conversation open, to keep the discussion going, because there are individuals who could be helped by the ideas. That's the goal of this picture in the first place: here, have a thing to think about, to talk about, and if you need it, to learn from.
[–]HalfysReddit0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While this actually does make some sense to me, you never qualified what the "theme" of feminism is. And I find it hard to believe that feminism is just about equality, because if that were the case much of the discussion in feminism would be talking about Africa.
[–]sortofheathery3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's where the "individual" part comes in. While most feminists are concerned about equality everywhere, it's easy to be over focused on the issues you personally face on a frequent basis (though they may be small in comparison to another person's). When I went to Africa I saw a shocking mix. Some areas of equality were actually better than in the US. Granted, others were much, much worse. We do what we can where we can to help who we can; however it's hard to believe you can help stop sex slavery on the other side of the world when you feel like you don't even have your own voice to say no in your own bedroom.
[–]davanillagorilla0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If that's what she's trying to express, she's doing an absolutely horrible job at it. What she said does imply rape.
is obviously talking about rape, which means so is the next line.
Sometimes yes means no
That implies that sometimes, if a woman says yes but is thinking no, it's rape. Which is not true. (excluding actual threatening situations)
[–]sortofheathery1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I can see how it would come across that way, and the comparison is supposed to be there. It's not a direct comparison, though. Consensual sex is not rape, even if one of the parties doesn't fully feel comfortable with it. However, it is still going to leave the less comfortable party feeling vulnerable and used. There are multiple messages, which I think everyone agrees with. 1) Be honest with your feelings during sexual encounters. If you don't want to have sex, say no, walk away, don't do it. 2) Don't overly pressure someone for sex. If they seem uncomfortable and don't particularly reciprocate, don't just keep pushing until they finally consent. It's really obvious if the person you are trying to have sex with is into it or not, if s/he is not then back off and leave him/her his/her dignity. Especially if you don't know him/her very well. Again, this is not rape. You could not be convicted of rape for doing this. But you are disregarding the feelings of another human being and that is not okay.
[–]checkyourlogic4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's what a lot of people in here are assuming because they would rather take it 100% literally if it means it gives them an excuse to demonize feminism.
What she's saying is that there are times when consent is given but a person doesn't actually want to give it, is pressured to give it, or is not actually capable of truly giving it.
When someone is drugged out of their mind, or is under the age of consent, or is blackmailed or pressured into things that is not real consent. That's all she's trying to say. She never even used the word rape on her sign. She never said "If I regret it, it's rape." She's just making a point about manipulation of consent.
And the saddest thing is this absolutely applies to men too. Men can be pressured into sex, men can be too drunk or drugged to consent, boys can try to give consent when they're too young for it.
So wouldn't it be better to say "You don't only need feminism for this because the MRM believes in making sure our partners are really consenting too and we also acknowledge that not all sexual assault happens when someone is screaming NO."? But instead everyone would rather be intentionally obtuse because it's so much more fun to mock her and joke about le patriarchy and privilege.
[–]BlueRoseLunatic3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Honestly, I think "yes doesn't always mean yes" is referring to coercion.
[–]LucasTrask2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This could be sarcasm, or a reference to the "enthusiastic consent" nonsense some feminists are pushing. That's the idea that consent alone isn't enough, because there can be subtle coersion involved. Or something.
[–]nopurposeflour1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No matter what they say, it means no except when they feel like it means yes. Come on, can't you see through the clear message??!!! Why would anyone get confused??? /s
[–]nobody200025 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I need feminism because my communication skills are that of a 3 year old with Downs Syndrome...
[–]adomorn7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Naw, my three year old with downs knows when he does or doesn't want something and communicates it too well.
[–]nobody20005 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well the clearly he doesn't need feminism.
However, he might need to check his privilege.
[–]contrarianism20 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This seems like a parody.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics19 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So guys if you recognize this lady DO NOT HAVE SEX WITH HER.
Regardless of how enthusiastically she consents she is clearly stating that she feels justified in taking back consent after the fact.
And I have little doubt she'd sleep soundly after sending a man away for 10 years for consensual sex because she has already convinced herself that consensual sex can still be rape. She'd honestly believe she was the victim.
[–]Chervenko11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I believe the Athenians are rolling in their graves right now. I doubt even the dead would find peace through all this jimmy rustling.
[–]ReverendSalem10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am seeing a lot of cross-posting between /r/TumblrInAction and /r/MensRights lately..
[–]MaunaLoona5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This one is from /r/INeedFeminismBecause.
[–]ReverendSalem7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh, right. I'm subbed to both of those. My bad.
Intersectionality hard at work, am I right?
[–]MaunaLoona7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Many TiA users pride themselves on hating MRAs and the Men's Rights movement. They see themselves as the enlightened few who choose the Aristotelian mean between Feminists and MRAs. It is, of course, a logical fallacy as the truth does not have to lie in the middle of two extremes.
I'm not sure it's quite so noble a stance.
Most of them just sit back and giggle obnoxiously at the extremists on all sides. EDIT: Also, the MRA movement seems to get picked on a lot less over at TiA than most movements.
[–]Cyridius0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's because while MRA has more than it's fair share of retards, most people on Reddit seem pretty reasonable. And let's be honest here, how many MRA websites do you think TiA looks at?
[–]MaunaLoona9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
TiA keeps trying to find the so called "extremist" MRAs but all they're finding are rational arguments from men's perspective. They're a bit flustered.
[–]I_divided_by_0-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's a parody sub, right?
[–]ReverendSalem1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's hard to tell sometimes, but yeah, I think so.
[–]CosmicKeys3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRightsMeta/comments/1ew783/check_your_privilege/
I probably wouldn't even care if this wasn't a lazy repost that was last here a month ago, reposted from TiA, and had >200 comments.
[–]libertasmens10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I thought this was already covered? It is logical, it's just oversimplified.
This is a concept that is commonly referred to, but this woman decided to simplify it to the point that it sounds ridiculous... coercion.
Regardless of if you reside in Canada or not, I think Canada's criminal code defines consent very well with coercion in mind:
“consent” means [...] the voluntary agreement of the complainant to engage in the sexual activity in question.
-Criminal Code, RSC 1985, c C-46, §273.1(1)
When referring assault and sexual assault:
(3) For the purposes of this section, no consent is obtained where the complainant submits or does not resist by reason of (a) the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant; (b) threats or fear of the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant; (c) fraud; or (d) the exercise of authority
(3) For the purposes of this section, no consent is obtained where the complainant submits or does not resist by reason of
(a) the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant;
(b) threats or fear of the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant;
(c) fraud; or
(d) the exercise of authority
-Criminal Code, RSC 1985, c C-46, §265(3)
In other words, even if they submit or consent, there are circumstances where they do not truly consent.
I'm aware that this is only Canadian law. The point is that the law above clearly and concisely explains how "yes can mean no".
I consider myself an MRA, and while I understand that a lot of the responses to this picture are from those who are used to seeing pseudo- and extreme-feminists, but I just hate to see people jump to conclusions when there's a logical reasoning.
[–]boss10009 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'll explain what the second part her statement means, since so many of you are completely mischaracterizing or misunderstanding it.
She wants to raise awareness of the fact that consent is more than "'no' means 'no'". She wants more people to understand that a severely intoxicated "yes" doesn't imply consent. That a "yes" while being coerced or pressured doesn't imply consent. This is clearly a misconception people have, because many of those who have raped under a standard definition (for which I include all potential male victimization) didn't even know they were doing so.
Feminism pushes for that awareness. It pushes for an emphasis on respecting the other person over getting laid. On assuming a default "no" until convinced otherwise because of an understanding of the damage rape can cause to a person.
It could be worth discussing whether that message is clear enough in this image to the feminist, the lay-person, and the anti-feminist each. But I don't feel like this is the place to do that. The comments here show little effort to understand and a much stronger proclivity to berate. I understand y'all are hyper-concerned about false rape accusations, but this is a real issue about actual rape.
If you're going to respond to this, please spare me the hyperbole of references to filling out forms in the bedroom for consent or extrapolating something well beyond what I said. That's where unproductive dialog begins and ends with me. And be sure to downvote because you disagree, because that's how Reddiquette is supposed to work.
Edit: I'll rescind my last sentence for now. No need to assume my every interaction with this subreddit be peppered with downvotes.
Edit2: Nevermind.
[–][deleted]9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can you please explain where and how in this message it says anything other then that sometimes yes does not mean yes If this truly is a feminist perspective than it shows a complete lack of the appreciation of the other problems that can go with a statement like this, most importantly the prolific issue of false rape allegations
[–]boss10000 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
the prolific issue of false rape allegations
False rape accusations are not prolific and the rates of its occurrence are in fact no different than with other crimes. The vastly greater issue is the abysmal reporting rate of sexual assault. By intently fixating on false claims, you further the stigma against actual rape victims. They will second-guess themselves, doubt themselves, and feel further discouraged to report the crime. And this is compounded by known studies of psychological effects on the brain during traumatic events that make details fuzzy or completely absent. We really don't need to make it harder or doubt them further; it's hard enough to come forward.
There exists a common ground here in trying to resolve both issues simultaneously, and that is teaching the importance of consent. I want the mentality of more people to become "I respect this person and his/her autonomy and want to make sure this is enjoyable, not harmful." That implies an understanding of the weight of one's actions and value of the partner. It demonstrates a knowledge of the severity of sexual assault and therefore the potential costs of claiming it flippantly.
I am a feminist and understood exactly what the message was trying to convey immediately. I can understand how people so intently focused on another issue would interpret it differently, but I believe this comes from a mistaken perspective.
[–][deleted]4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If I were a feminist (which I am not)rather than trying to teach women that they can say yes and then later decide it actually meant no I would try and focus on teaching them the correct way to be 100% clear about whether they consent to sex or not
If I were an MRA (which I am) I would dream of a world where we can teach men that the only time it is ok to proceed with a sexual encounter is when you are 100% sure you have consent and that the only way to be 100% sure is if she has said yes. But we are being forced to live in a world where it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever be 100% sure you have consent because feminists believe that even saying yes still gives you the right to turn around and accuse somebody of rape
regarding whether or not false rape allegation are prolific or not - I will leave that argument to the people who have better statistics but I personally in 1 (that's right only 1) year of driving taxis had 5 false allegations made against me so for me personally I consider them to be an issue.
I agree 100% that there needs to be a common ground and that teaching the importance of consent is vital. What I do not agree with is that using the phrase "sometimes yes doesn't mean yes" even comes close to being a responsible way to get this message across.
Stupid pictures with retarded messages that do not make sense are not the way to get important issues resolved
[–]lordtyp02 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Something that has always bothered me by this sort of stance: If two people are drunk-how is it that one is seen as a victim? If she is confused and yes doesn't mean yes-why is the responsibility placed on the drunk man in this? Why isn't that equal responsibility?
[–]boss10001 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is one of the grey areas that exists when creating laws about anything. In an ideal world, we'd be able to sense the intentions of both people involved to see if one knowingly took advantage of the other, or if both were equally making impaired decisions without malice. Since we don't have that, we can look at context, to an extent. For a married couple or one that has a history of knowingly doing this, or more generally a couple that has given enthusiastic consent in the past, this might less likely be an issue.
But again, one way to limit the confusion of these instances is to change people's mindsets to be more respectful of the partner's autonomy. If everyone respected the importance of consent, then we could be more sure that mutually drunk sex wasn't rape.
But I don't feel very comfortable trying to narrow down this definition here, in /r/mensrights, because so much of this subreddit works against the very real problem of rape already. They are hyper-skeptical and will take this as a point against the prevalence or reliability of those who report being sexually assaulted.
I know I've read more eloquent people speaking on this subject, as well. It's not something that is completely unaddressed, but it is something that's a bit hard to search for! :P
How do you feel this impacts the so called mating dance? For probably as long as humans existed-men and women, or-men and men, whatever the pair up has been: have gathered in areas to leer at each other-and in modern times, dance. The act of dancing does break down the social barrier of personal space and makes it 'more likely' to happen anyway IMO.
So this scenario: 2 people are drinking at a bar and see each other-they keep drinking and decided to dance. Over the night they decide to go to one or the others house.
Under the threads premise of yes doesn't equal yes, and the weight is on the man-then this becomes automagically date rape. Though I do believe that the thread post is REALLY talking about coercion such as some guy perpetually nagging and the target finally agreeing to get him to shut up or a similar event. That is a different chain.
In the bar scenario though-I do know that many would call that date rape. Why is it with centuries of social norms on the mating ritual described-is it the mans responsibility to say no when both are intoxicated?
Keep in mind-that all these discussions are sort of alien to me. I am gay-we have our own messed up social conventions such as the automatic expectation that you screw around with people in groups as simple as a coffee group, not doing it for any reason gets one ostracized but-I am basing that off of the sub community in Salt Lake which tends to be a bit weird in general though.
The one thing I am grateful of for the gay community though-sex isn't seen as that big of deal. Rape is rare but does occur of course-I think it's rarer per capita because of how easy it is to find a partner if you look for most people. I could literally spend 10 minutes looking and have someone over.
It is kind of a double edged sword though-I think this using of each other tends to dehumanize a bit. But-I am glad I don't have to deal with the weird issues hetero women and men have to face with trying to find each other-such weird expectations on what makes a Woman attractive to a man and a man to a Woman-sometimes it strikes me as trying to work out a business contract between foreign nations when the translator only speaks tourist (Wo ist ein toiletta?).
I try not to post things on threads like this because I just don't get the complications involved. Most of it makes sense, but the weird standard of the onus always on the man is confusing to me. When force and/or intimidation are used, it make sense. But, there are so many ways to fight back in todays system that putting nebulous requirements is baffling.
Like I said, when it comes to drinking, things can get difficult to discern. That's why raising awareness of the harm of rape can help ensure people take respectful and mutually beneficial action.
Also, I never conceded the notion that this is one sex's problem and not the other. Of course that's not the case and would be purely sexist.
Fair enough-I wasn't meaning my response to be counter-point, was more meant just as a discussion.
Hey, I'm also not hooking up with people in bars. I don't drink. So a lot of this I won't personally experience, either. I just think it's important.
[–]Ziu7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Perhaps she means people can be forced to say yes, sex slavery etc.
[–]Old-Hickory-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
that's very clearly what she means.
This subreddit is quite literally pro-rape. This subreddit is honestly one of the scariest places on the internet.
Nope. We're just against feminists like this one stretching the definition of rape to 'sex i kind of regret next day that i agreed to'. But, you've made up your mind - we're scary~~~~ BOO! Run along now, back to your 'safe-space'.
[–]Old-Hickory-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
We're just against feminists like this one stretching the definition of rape to 'sex i kind of regret i agreed to'.
That's not a thing and not at all what her poster is about...
[–]TheGDBatman3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah, that never happens. Women never make false claims because they're not human - they can't be if they're so infallible as to not be able to be as complete a piece of shit as any man can be.
[–]posthuman012 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I wouldn't say pro-rape its for mens rights, just the problem with anything like this is you get it going to far, if feminism is a pendulum swung far right for some reason mensrights think they need to go to the far left, when really everyone would be happy if we just met at the middle and treated each other human.
[–]HalfysReddit1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Personally, I think we'd do a lot of good if we just stopped acknowledging the ideas of femininity vs masculinity.
But you're entirely spot-on with the pendulum description. I think a lot of it comes from men and women easily seeing the privileges given to the opposite gender, but failing to recognize their own privileges. The fact is, society for a long time told us what it meant to be a man or a woman, so anyone who didn't naturally want that exact thing, was in some way oppressed.
While I'll admit that MRA has its problems, claiming that it's pro-rape is just an easy ticket to dismissal. No one can take you seriously with such claims.
Show one example where an MRA details the rape of an individual, and they are anything but vilified.
[–]A_Nihilist6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What gets me about these pictures is how ridiculously smug some of them look. They really think they're sending some profound message but nobody in their movement wants to tell them how stupid they look.
[–]spatulaboy6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Doesnt need feminism just needs a interpreter.
[–]harryballsagna6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Tell me it's a 'shop! I already hate people enough, and I don't think I can take finding out this is real.
[–][deleted]5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't understand. Where was this posted originally, did she at least try to explain the meaning behind that?
[–]Funcuz14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think it's pretty obvious actually.
She probably means something along these lines : If I say yes maybe it's because I'm scared to say no.
You know , the old "I felt threatened" line. There's no way to quantify feelings and objectively rate them so if that's what she says then it means you're subject to her whims.
In other words , you need to read her mind or it's rape.
Oh, right. I can see how that would be relevant in some cases – abusive relationships, etc. But sadly I don't think that's what she meant. :(
[–]Idiopathic773 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It is. It is a standard argument. The gist of which Funcuz hit pretty concisely.
No, I mean my example wasn't what she meant. I get what Funcuz was saying.
[–]Idiopathic777 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
ahh. Ok. It really is a touchy business. Under duress a yes could just be an instinctive action to avoid harm. The definition of what constitutes duress is what needs to be codified. Fear of immediate physical harm is a solid definition for duress. Not "he won't like me is I say no" or "he may say things to people that make me look bad" Etc Etc. And especially not "I feel guilty".
MRAs feel that those sub-par definitions for duress are prevalent and endorsed through feminist ideology and legislations, especially on campuses. They are likely right in that assumption. That is why they take this issue so seriously.
My solution is to only have sex with a mature and responsible woman. I have given up on wishing that the behaviors of those around me change. I can only control my own actions and adjust my selectivity to exclude emotionally immature people.
Your solution seems like the best solution. Likewise, I only have sex with a non-threatening, respectful man. Huzzah!
Ninja edit: And thank you for explaining that to me so well!
[–]Idiopathic771 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No problem. And best of luck to you in finding your respectful man. Your ability to give respect will be your greatest asset in receiving the respect you desire.
I found him, we're all good. Respect goes both ways unless we're up too early and out of coffee. Then it's war.
[–]Idiopathic772 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That is always true. I've got my respectful and mature lady. And coffee in the morning is key to happiness. She doesn't drink it so avoidance until after shower is helpful :D
You. I like you. This movement needs more level-headed people like you.
I'm flattered.
I'm an oddity in a way.
MRM is like any movement. Always susceptible to drawing out intensity.
The world (not just the MRM) needs more vocal moderates. But the nature of the moderate keeps them quiet. It's a conundrum.
[–]jaheiner5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
SIR, HOW DARE YOU IMPEDE ON THIS WOMANS RIGHT TO CHANGE HER MIND ABOUT IT HAVING BEEN CONSENSUAL WHEN SHE BECOMES AFRAID OF BEING CALLED A WHORE! YOU SEXIST PIG
WOMANS
WOMYNS
FTFY, shitlord.
WYRYM's
[–]tessie9995 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'll probably get downvoted for this, but I think she meant "yes doesn't mean yes when they are too intoxicated to consent, or are underaged".
However she phrased it in the worst way possible...hopefully the backlash against it will prevent future poor wording of signs...
[–]ms47203 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why should she get a after the fact do over, that ruins the guys life, due to her voluntary choices? Why should a possibly equally drunk/stoned/whatever guy become a felon because both of them were exercising bad judgment at the time? For example if she was drunk and, using same bad judgement, she decided to drive should she be able to say in court "I was drunk I could not give consent to driving, so please throw my passenger in jail for 15 years"?
Equality is taking the bad shit in life with the good, it is called being an adult. She should grow up and accept the fact that actions have consequences and not all of them are the ones you want.
[–]tessie9991 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It depends if the man was sober or not. We don't know if the girl is talking about equally drunk people, but I'd assume she's thinking of the situation where a girl is almost passing out and mostly sober men who aren't far off a good state of judgement rape her. It is also worth considering the drunk person DID say no, but due to being intoxicated are not very able to defend themselves. If she is nearing passed-out-drunk, and he is completely sober it is more likely he scouted her out for the sex: that is rape. It is the same the other way around.
And again, she could also mean if the person is below the age of consent which is reasonable in my eyes.
[–]ms47202 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why are you assuming that the girl is blind staggering drunk and the man is stone cold sober? I see it no where in what she posted. Now on to the blind staggering drunk driving, even if some stone cold sober guy talked her into it, would lack of consent be a valid reason to not deal with the consequences of her choice? Even if the sole purpose of the guy was to get her arrested for drunk driving, bought the drinks, walked her to the car and called the cops, was she or wash she not drunk driving? Being an adult is about being accountable for what you did not what you wish you did.
Here is the other thing your counter examples are so extreme that they are well past the border of ridiculous. What if she is dam near unconscious and he wants to get laid and is stone cold sober is your counter argument? I would call that rape and at most of the parties/bars I have been in/to so would dam near all the guys. And he would leave quickly and alone.
And here is a counter argument for you, the sexes are reversed blind drunk guy and sober girl. She takes him home has sex with him, its ok its "not" rape(its happening to the guy after all), she get pregnant, keeps the baby (in fact that was her goal for the evening) and sues him for child support. Does he even get the chance to say "I was drunk so I did not give consent" or does he have the courts attach his income for 18-21 years for child support?
Equality is both people getting treated the same way
Why are you assuming that the girl is blind staggering drunk and the man is stone cold sober?
Because this is most likely what she would have meant. It also says nowhere whether she meant people changing their minds after consensual sex, but no one is arguing against that.
even if some stone cold sober guy talked her into it, would lack of consent be a valid reason to not deal with the consequences of her choice
Getting drunk is an irresponsible choice. Raping some one in cold blood while completely aware (ie: sober) is a much deeper, more hateful choice.
drunk driving
I understand why this example is used so much but the analogy isn't correct. If a person is raped while they are drunk, it is more comparable to a a drunk driver who gets hit by another car DELIBERATELY by the other driver while on the road. Which is worse? Drunk driving or purposefully causing the car accident?
he would leave quickly and alone.
Of course he would. It would be stupid not to after he committed a crime. You are hardly going to hang around a shop you just stole from, or stay near the body of someone you murdered.
And here is a counter argument for you, the sexes are reversed blind drunk guy and sober girl. She takes him home has sex with him, its ok its "not" rape
Yes it is. It is sexual assault - as it is for a woman. Rape needs penetration, but without it there is still a crime being committed and the sentencing isn't much lighter. I think you should read up on law for this one. The woman can still be taken to court and punished for her crimes.
she get pregnant, keeps the baby (in fact that was her goal for the evening) and sues him for child support
Regardless of what you were trying to say here, this sounds like a derailment for a completely different debate. Child support is unrelated to this discussion and as said above - it is sexual assault.
No where does it say what she meant, this is something you are adding so you can claim in some weird way that what she is saying is reasonable.
so you are saying here that she did consent to the act and just wishes she did not do that then next day so the guy must have been a rapist. Also see how you are picking the least likely chain of events that leads to sex. The much more likely way things would have worked out is two drunk people have sex and neither was sober enough to exercise good judgement, why is he the one who can be accused of rape and she can not if he regrets it in the morning? My argument is about equality before the law and nothing else.
never said it was not, but we are talking about for 99%+, in my opinion, drunk enough to get a dwi not unconscious or near enough not to matter.
by your above definition the woman must be so drunk that she could not start the car if I put here in the drivers seat, now it is a different definition I see you are using. Dishonest debating. So what you are saying is the woman is capable of legally consenting to drive a car but really should not be doing so and bad things happened, and the most likely one there is getting hit by an equally drunk driver and in that case why are they not both victims or both criminals? why is the girl the victim and the guy the criminal?
I do not know what kind of people you hang around with but you should find a better grade of humanity to associate with. He would leave before he got the chance to do anything, in general he might go through a door or out a window but he was leaving right now and not welcome back.
I never said other crimes were not committed just he was not raped, it keeps that key statistic really useful to feminists and we can not have the truth getting in the way of that can we?
no it is not, he is held responsible for the results of the act even though he DID NOT consent to it and she, by that sign, even with consent she has the choice after the fact to revoke her consent. Again equal treatment before the law or not so much as in this case.
Nowhere does it say anything about regretful sex being rape either. Or that men can't be raped. Or that two tipsy consenting adults becomes rape for the woman. She was most likely referring to sex where one person is significantly more drunk than the other or underage or being forced to give consent. This is reasonable because here; a "yes" most certainly isn't a "yes" if they are 12, if they are too drunk to know what they are really saying "yes" to or are being threatened.
I was trying to debate you by using your definitions. I actually said she shouldn't be getting in the car in the very quote you gave from my reply. Where is it more likely that they are equally drunk? I agree being equally drunk should not be considered rape, but then you have manipulated cases where a person may be raped and forced to drink so they are both not sober. This is unlikely of course, but intent should be looked at. I have said men can get raped. I didn't assume the man was a criminal. Both people in the car where referred to as a "person" - no gender is assumed.
I don't understand this at all. You are agreeing with me he is not going to hang around by his crime because it would probably lead to him getting caught. I don't actually see how your first mention of the person who raped leaving ASAP contributes anything to this argument anyway.
What key stastic? Neither of us have mentioned ANY stastics...not that they are completely necessary as the argument is on definitions but I'm at loss as to what you are referring too.
Child support seems to me like a different argument. I do believe that a male victim should not have to pay child support...nowhere did I mention otherwise. Hence why I don't see the relevance of it at the moment...I never once claimed this should be the case and we are talking about the definitions of rape and sexual assault within the law. Not how child support should be modified (which it should). Child support is a different debate for me and we seem to agree on that anyway.
[–]Hikikomori5235 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is why you always sign an NDA and employment contract before doing the deed........
[–]sommelier3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
only if they pass the credit check first
[–]parannoyedandroid5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Seriously, what the fuck does that even mean.
[–]MrMilky205 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It means that she's a retard and she needs to be attacked by a pack of wild orangutans with clubs in their hands.
[–]doules1074 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
THAT WAS NOT INT THE RULES
[–]MaunaLoona11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.
[–]lordfransie4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How do intelligent people believe that this mentality makes sense. How is a man supposed to know that you are saying yes but don't actually mean it. I had an ex who actually got mad at me because I knew she was mad but I couldn't read her mind and know why. I hate that it is no longer the woman's job to vocalize their feelings, but rather the man's to just know.
[–]Kallistic1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Doublethink... according to Orwell, only the most intelligent are truly capable of maintaining 2 contradictory stances simultaniously.
[–]MildlyInconvenient4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Because men can't read minds"
[–]GADBabaganoosh4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If you MEAN no then FUCKING SAY NO, not a timid YES.
[–]twelveovertwo4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If you can't sympathize with those in abusive relationships where words like "no" have physical consequences, then I have no time for you, /r/MensRights.
[–]mrmcdude-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Err... except if she gets hit for saying no that is already a crime. And if the guy fucks her after she says no then he is guilty of rape. The problem that many of us have with her sign is its vagueness, and it could just as easily imply that men should have to be mind-readers.
[–]BalllsackTBaghard3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She looks like the chick from the movie "The Haunting"
[–]notnotnotfred0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The actress you mean is Lili Taylor, who also played Val Solanas in "I shot Andy Warhol" (which movie praised VS' SCUM manifesto as a great work of feminism)
6 degrees of feminaziation?
[–]athornton4363 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
holy shit that girl goes to my school
[–]lazydonovan4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Guess who you should under no circumstance come within 100ft of?
Does that translate into
I need feminism because 'no' means 'no', but sometimes I say 'yes' when I really mean 'no'
That's what I got from it. And I apologise for not being a fucking psychic.
[–]silverscreemer3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She doesn't need Feminism, she needs mind reading.
[–]ipoopgreatness3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I need Men's Rights because I have to be a fucking clairvoyant with nujobs.
[–]gypsywhisperer3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've been in a situation in which my choices with this scumbag were to have unprotected sex which I said no to three times, or give a blowjob. I was in a car so I couldn't leave, he removed my clothes and he was on top of my clothes. I had few options.
So I had to settle for the lesser of two evils. My first kiss was at that instance and he forced me down there for 90 minutes.
He tried to put it in me "just the tip" and when I said no, he groaned and put my face there.
I was relieved when I tasted that bitter cum because then I knew I was done and didn't have to do that again.
So, I said no, but I also complied because my options were limited.
[–]SplashyMetal5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That isn't ambiguous. That's rape.
[–]gypsywhisperer1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's hard to call it that because people say it isn't. I know I felt violated, but to cope, I put it off as if I wanted that. I knew he didn't like me, that he was having sex with other girls, and I didn't care. I knew he wasn't relationship material. We kissed and he immediately took off my clothes, even though I pulled them back.
Some people say it's not rape because I let him do that. I felt vulnerable and threatened. I said no to sex, and he made me feel like I owed him. He grabbed me and slapped me without asking and it was just overall weird and I was in another place mentally during it. I didn't realize I had been sucking for 90 minutes until he told me, because I was in my own world, trying not to think about it.
[–]SplashyMetal3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm so sorry. That sounds truly terrible. Have you talked to a counselor? Even if you do not press charges, you still need to process what happened.
If he grabbed you and slapped you... That just sounds bad. :( Please find someone to talk to and start healing.
Yep. I've talked to a counselor back in March I think. She also happened to be a specialist in rape and sexual abuse. She actually cried, but I have come to terms with what happened. I was 17 and naïve, and he was 19 and knew exactly what he was doing. He was incredibly manipulative.
I have talked, I am now in a good, healthy relationship.
[–]SplashyMetal1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The counselor did not think it was rape? Regardless, it sounds like you have gotten some clarity on a confusing and traumatic event. My best wishes to you.
No she thought it was rape and she actually cried when I was talking about it.
I'm in my sleeping boyfriends arms now and all is good in the world.
[–]lucky_shiner3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This seems like one of the more reasonable 'ones of these things' that I occasionally see around here. I think the point that she's trying to hit on is that she should feel comfortable with saying no and whatever consequences that decision may bring. I think that's a reasonable concern.
[–]bnpruitt20123 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Here's a thought, say what you mean.
[–]only_does_reposts1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can't do that, language is formed by the patriarchy /s
[–]fia_bui3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As ridiculous as this is, hasn't this been posted a few times before?
[–]kragshot3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What in the seven-thousand intercontinental nuclear ballistic fucks does that statement even mean?
Bag of cats, I tell ya....
And now I'm going to read the rest of this thread just to see who comes in here to actually try to defend that slice of misandric insanity. And I'm going to heap piles of hot, steaming scorn on them.
[–]moorethanafeeling3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No is no in Spanish, but yes is si.
[–]Loluwism3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh, I get it, that means... Wait, WTF does that mean?
[–]UseKnowledge3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is fake, right? Or photo-shopped? No one can be this stupid.
[–]Capitalsman3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If yes means no then don't fucking say yes
[–]XDingoX833 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Wut?
[–]JAMbalaya133 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She is not accusing anybody of rape... Who does this SR always just jump to conclusions, I am fucking unsubscribing. This picture shouldn't have jumped to the top of my feed. Not all women are evil manipulative bitches. I am all for equal rights for men, but stop assuming the worst, you are acting just like the real psycho bitches.
[–]Nomenimion2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes, she is accusing someone of rape with that sign. Any man who ever has sex with any woman under any circumstances, according to this vile piece of trash.
[–]littlerabbitbite3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
ITT MRA's fail to understand the concept of coercion or emotional manipulation.
[–]Nipplestoker2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I need Feminism because men are secretly mind readers.
[–]freelollies2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
See, if we just all adopted Aladeen none of this would be a problem
[–]literallyschmiteraly1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
YES! I mean, ALADEEN!
[–]SplosionMan2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm pretty sure this got proven to be fake, or a joke on some talk show.
[–]JesusChristSuperDick2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The lack of logic hurts my head.
[–]ImClever2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's. Fucked. Up.
[–]Noel_S_Jytemotiv2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
…having a word for telling other women what to do and think makes it legitimate.
[–]noodleworm2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
We've had this picture posted before, and just like that time I refer to this book (just look at the god-damn title), as a sign that this girl is totally confused/or unclear about feminism.
I can only assume she is trying to refer to something people have called 'Grey Rape'- which is where you give in to pressure or coercion. In that case what the person did is not illegal but leaves you feeling uncomfortable and a bit violated.
[–]daulm2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Wait, this isn't a joke?
I think Poe's law applies here.
[–]DrDerpberg2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This kind of thing is more misogynist than anything I've ever seen feminism rage against.
This woman obviously thinks women are unable to decide things for themselves and lack the ability to speak their mind. This sign implies that it is a man's job to think for the woman, and that even after she gives consent it is up to him to decide if she's thinking clearly enough to mean it. This is how I treat children; they think they want something but haven't thought it through, so it's a grown-up's job to decide what's really good for them. I refuse to treat women the way I treat children; if that makes me an enemy of a certain brand of feminism, I'm glad.
[–]DirtyBirdNJ2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Dear girl holding sign, fuck you.
[–]lazydonovan1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are you sure she meant "yes"?
[–]OMNEG2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Can someone please help me? So many of these are so absurd when I read them that I honestly can't tell if they are real or Poe's Law. I simply can't believe someone would say something like that yet I've met many people in my life who have said many stupid things they really believed.
tl;dr: Are these real or Poe?
[–]CrayAB2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What
[–]Kalfos2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I ain't don't get it...
[–]buttholemacgee2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are you fucking kidding me? So you're screwed either way. Good luck.
[–]Woden8881 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, you're not screwed. That's the point, I think.
[–]LegoAllTheThings2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Then what the fuck does it mean?!?
It means learn to be a mind reader, because you'll never guess right.
[–]galt881 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
And women like that wonder 'where all the good guys are'.
[–]Garnack1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Someone doesn't know what the definition of "yes" means.
[–]MarkFluffalo1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Is that Cambridge?
The other, Radcliffe Camera.
[–]SMZ721 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Buyer's Remorse?
[–]303030303030301 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
hilarious
just say you don't want responsibility for anything you do, we already know that
[–]Wheels2791 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm seeing a lot of anger and blaming on women here in the comments implying that it is all on a women if she says "yes" and means "no." And while I agree that women should be held accountable for what they say and do, implying that a woman who does this is a "manipulative bitch." And that men aren't "telepathic," doesn't make this situation any better. Isn't it possible that women in this situation are just so damn confused they don't know what they want? Maybe that means she is blameworthy, or that we should write off what she feels because even she doesn't know. I however can attest to say that as a woman I am confused, I have grown up confused, and even with an education on feminist theory I am still confused. The society I live in (America) tells me every day through internet content, victim blaming, magazines, new coverage etc, that I am not worthy. That physical beauty is power, that men wanting you is power, and that people don't really value who I am inside, just what I am outside. It is my belief that many women get this same message from the media, and from the men in their lives (boyfriends, husbands, fathers, brothers,etc). I can certainly think of situations where women say yes and mean no, and while there certainly is accountability on her, why aren't we holding our society accountable too? We are teaching girls and women to be confused, to be powerless, and then we call them bitches, sluts, and other hurtful names to add insult to injury.
[–]TheGDBatman5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Isn't it possible that women in this situation are just so damn confused they don't know what they want?
So the answer is to treat all women as children and not listen to what they say, because they might not know what they want, eh? And they say the "Patriarchy" is infantilizing and paternalistic towards women - if it even exists, the Patriarchy has nothing on feminism for misogyny.
Edit: Decapitalized a word.
That is not what I meant at all. I am simply attempting to offer an alternate explanation other than women who do this are manipulative bitches. I don't think it is ok, and I am not condoning it, but it helps to look at an issue from different view points. Trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes can be difficult in these situations, but what I said was my best attempt at empathizing with this girl. There is nothing wrong with that.
Empathizing with someone who "needs feminism" because she can't quite figure out the problem with saying "yes doesn't necessarily mean yes"...
I think the problem may be too much being empathized with and not enough being told to grow the fuck up.
[–]Wheels2790 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Would you tell someone with a history of sexual abuse to "grow the fuck up?" That could easily be this person. You claim to understand how empathy works and yet have none. So, why should I listen to someone who is concerned with telling others how to live and not hoping to understand and make better?
[–]ClickclickClever1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would tell someone with a history of sexual abuse that if they cannot decide whether they want to have sex or not than they should just not have sex instead of pushing their problems onto someone else.
I have a history of sexual abuse and false allegations, and seeing things like this and having people like you(You're not a bad person but you want to take responsibility away from someone because you feel bad, without considering the other people this affects) defend things like is one of the reasons I cannot have sex with anyone. I don't know how you can consider where this woman is coming from without considering how that would affect the people they are in a relationship with. If you are an adult than you need to be treated as an adult and act like an adult. If you don't have the ability to decide whether or not you want to have sex, than you need to not have sex. I am fearful of what can happen if I have sex, I am fearful of trusting someone that much but I don't have the benefit that a woman does when I explain that to people. I am held accountable for my actions and there is no way in hell a court would ever charge someone if I told them I consented to sex but was confused, or anything even close to that. That wouldn't even pick up charges when I was sexually assaulted. So please, I understand that you're empathetic and that it's not hate that drives you but when you want to excuse someone's behavior like this, it's always at the expense of someone else. If she can't be held responsible for her actions, it's not up to someone else to take charge and take responsibility for her, she is an adult, that makes adult decisions and knows the difference between right and wrong and what's best for her. Just like I do.
I have repeatedly stated that I think that even people who say yes and mean no should be held accountable. I am in no way saying they are not responsible for their actions, I am try to make a point that as a society, we also are accountable for the confusing messages we send women regarding sexuality, self worth, etc. I am also attempting to consider the people that this woman may have relationships with, but as I do not have a history of sexual abuse, it is enlightening to hear your perspective. I am not "defending" I am playing devil's advocate. I am attempting to offer an alternative view point to blaming women like this, and perhaps providing some controversy worth debating. I do agree that if you cannot decide whether or not you'd like to have sex then you shouldn't, but not everyone has the same experiences, values, intelligence, etc. What is the judgement then for a women who says yes, but wishes she could say no out of fear of what the repercussions of saying no might be? I'm not saying anything about the court, because the court makes of a lot of good, but also bad decisions regarding who they hold accountable for things. Again, I have repeatedly stated that I believe she should be held accountable, and I am in no way implying that she is not. My thoughts were that, there is more to it than she is attempting to be manipulative, or is a bitch, or whatever, but that all we have to go on is the one sentence provided in the picture, and that alone is not enough room for judgement. How can we hold this individual accountable, and let society off the hook? Are we all not accountable for the things that happen in our society? I believe part of the reason these types of issues crop up is because we are constantly blaming victims, instead of examining how our society created the perpetrator. And while yes, they are individually responsible, the issue resides in more than just this individual, and keeps appearing, and that to me points to a lack of accountability on the part of our society.
[–]Lots423 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
True, but if you mean yes, say yes.
[–]otellolino1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Wat
[–]lazlounderhill1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Could you imagine how fucking crazy, chaotic and violent this world would be if everyone subscribed to the crazy fucking idea that "Yes doesn't always mean Yes"? I just cannot believe that these words weren't photoshopped - my mind cannot accept that someone actually thinks this is remotely acceptable.
[–]fishing-for-downvote1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How the hell is he supposed to know. You said yes, he can't read minds.
[–]deathsythe1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You've got to be kidding me...
After reading her sign I thought, "Well what the fuck am I supose to do with that!?"
[–]PeterArching1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
...and sometimes "You are a vapid twat" means "Grow the fuck up and take responsibilty for yourself and your incapacitating inability to communicate properly".
The only "-ism" needed is some proper journalism to call these mental midgets out on their dipshittery instead of "boo hoo girls are weak and helpless and can't do nothing because of rapey men except when they are strong and independent and can do things better than men even blindfolded hanging upside down from bridge! YEAH GO GRRRLZ!"
[–]Jimmysal1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
TIL: no means no, yes also means no. Maybe. Maybe also means no.
TIL everyone will die alone because of this rats nest theory
[–]jokoon1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I wonder what "penis" sounds to her, yes or no ?
[–]Rio_Bravo1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While true sometimes yes does not mean yes, you don't need feminism for that people need to be less foolish and more responsible it's the point of knowing "shit I'm ether extreme drunk or high I probably shouldn't do this." but alas people can't take responsibility for their actions.
[–]girlsgonekyle1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"I lie"
[–]MRB20121 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This girl's been taking lessons from Bill Clinton it appears.
[–]ghebert0011 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not knowing the difference between a "yes that means yes" and one that doesn't = rapist /s
[–]gameboyhippo1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know this is offensive, but I think a solution might be to find an awesome woman, wait until marriage, and then only have sex with your wife. Ready. Set. Down vote!
[–]zanpher7171 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She needs a dictionary.
Literally, wtf...I am so confused, and she she also appears to be wholly confused.
[–]TheAlmightyProphet1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Normal adults use words to express the meaning of the message they intend to communicate. Fucking children and liars say words when they want to say something that they dont mean.
[–]hades_loves_you1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
These can't possibly be real.
[–]DasWeisseBand1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The sign doesnt mean she regretted sex. Yes doesn't always mean yes refers to being coerced into saying yes whether it is a threat of violence or getting a very intoxicated girl into saying yes.
but why am I bringing logic into this, lets all jerk about how stupid women are.
[–]Sirinon1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah except for those times when No is actually a veiled YES!!, as has happened so many times before.
[–]TheDongerNeedsFood0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is the equivalent of one of us saying
"I need the MRM because sometimes, after I've gone on a date, and I realize that it was a really bad one, I feel like the girl stole from me because I paid for dinner. Now that I think about it, she did steal from/defraud me, and I'm gonna call the cops on her."
[–]Mythandros0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's some interesting logic, there... So, let me see if I understand this.
No means no. Okay, I'm with you so far. Yes means no too? But only when SHE wants it to?
That makes no sense. I think /u/nlakes put it best in his reply on this post.
[–]qwert_trewq0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Haha, that's an Oxford Uni student. Should really know better.
[–]jady19710 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am sooo glad I am happily married, to be a young man dating in today's world would scare the shit out of me. All I had to worry about is rejection and maybe some taunting. Now you have to worry about legal persecution..............
[–]DigitalDemiGod0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She kind of looks like Leddy from Fast and Furious
[–]vader320 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Its got to be fake but knowing some feminists...
What the actual fuck?! I will preface this by saying that I am a woman that has long been beyond bothered by the "I need feminism because..." 'movement.' (Is it a movement or do they just go to college campuses with whiteboards?! They asked me to do it once when I was in college and didn't like my answer. I felt so equal and valued.)
Stuff like this enrages me in a way I cannot describe - there is no responsibility for the actions/ people/ situations/ places you surround yourself with and now the guy has to determine if you really mean it or not?!? Pathetic. At best. You absolutely have the right to say no - you do NOT have the right to say yes, feel buyer's remorse, and then say an ex-post-facto-no. /facepalm
[–]nrjk0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's interesting that people that parse words into such tiny objects all of a sudden don't give a shit when it comes to "yes" and "no".
Maybe, perhaps, the part saying "yes" is an actual feeling that any person that is able to enjoy sex feels when the opportunity arises. And maybe, just maybe, the "no" is a cultural factor brought on by the "patriarchy" that has long held that women should feel shame and guilt about sex and these two intertwining ideas give conflicting messages to both, or more (ifthatsthekindofthingyouthinkyoumightbeinto) people involved.
I never understood the sex-negative feminists. "We're so progressive, we're like the Taliban!" Not that it necessarily applies to the post. When a girl leads a guy on through OBSERVABLE signals and is doubting it in her UNOBSERVABLE mind, that is her problem, not mine.
Women no longer need to fear pregnancy as we have condoms, birth control, legal abortions, and so on. STD's are a risk to both sexes, so there is a mutual concern. Risk of carrying a child for nine months is no longer a huge factor, so whats the big deal with sex people? Do it. It feels good. Be safe. Enjoy it. Don't rape. Don't send conflicting ass signals and regret it and call it rape. Don't accuse cab drivers of sexual battery when you don't get your way. Simple
[–]Khathaar0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I can't imagine ever having to legit ask for consent.
"Hello, can we have sex tonight?"
"Yes, we can"
Fucking hell. Would be so awkward.
This shit is all sorts of daft.
[–][deleted]-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Feminist wizards are working on mind reading helmets I guess, they need all the funding they can get.
[–]Derp1121-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
She probably doesn't know the difference between rape and regret
[–]Orlando1701-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is quite literally the most ignorant thing I've ever seen and I'm in college where most of our professors are borderline retarded.
What the flying fuck, woman??!!
I'm so subscribing to this subreddit. EDIT: typo
[–]seenloitering-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
...and sometimes yes means no and yes at the same time, and like, your head implodes. That's why feminism is so awesome.
[–]femgal-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While I understand the difficulty some men may have in reading this particular woman's view, I would hope you would also understand that often women feel pressured into sex and may actually be too scared to say no. Mutual consent to sex isn't a simple yes/no answer and I believe a lot of men who've been sexually molested and pressured into sex by older and stronger women would agree. It's not a black and white issue, not much related to sex is.
[–]Piss_Marks_MY_Spot-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You need feminism because you're retarded? Hmm
[–]TychoCelchu-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am a dumb cunt, AMA
DOES NOT COMPUTE. WOMYN LOGIC DETECTED!
..seriously?
[–][deleted]0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
super cereal!
[–]doomsought-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Amusing, but wrong place to post it.
[–]ttnorac-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
http://humorousfunnyjokes.com/wp-content/uploads/Seems_About_Right.jpg
[–]NoSoul_Ginger-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't see the problem. If the one giving the consent is heavly intoxicated(alcohol ect) and the other one is not, then it can be classefied as a "false"/"void" consent in my opinion. However if both are just as much intoxicated, and both gives consent to the act, there shouldn't be a problem.
EDIT: Me not english good
EDIT: Ok people, if you have sex with a person, be it man or woman, who is so drunk they can't take care of them selves, with or without consent, then yes, I agree with the woman in the picture. However this goes both ways. If both of them are drunk then they are equally responsible for their own actions. A drunk person is also responsible for their own actions, but if some sober person is using them because they are to drunk to care for them selves then it is rape. When you are sober it is pretty much expected that you behave in a normal manner, and that if you start approaching a drunk person you either help them out, or behave as the sober person you are. I don't give a shit about "hurr both are equally responsible for their actions". Yes the drunk person was stupid for making the decision to get drunk in the first place, but don't even try to say that the sober and the drunk person have an equal standing when it comes to give consent to sex in any form or shape. One of them are clearly not capable of making decisions of their own well being at the moment, and the other one might use that for their own benefit.
[–]ncstategopackjack9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If I blow a bunch of money on shit I don't need because I was drunk did I get robbed?
If I decide to drive drunk am I forgiven because I'm impaired?
If I rape someone because I'm drunk do I get off scott free?
Of course not. People are accountable for their own actions even when they are intoxicated.
[–]HigglyBumps1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
yes they are, because they as legal adults, chose to become intoxicated and therefore have lost their ability to judge situations rationally. Being drunk is not an excuse, it is the reason you got yourself into the situation in the first place.
[–]ncstategopackjack1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thanks for summarizing my point more succinctly. Sorry if my comment seemed like it was rambling a bit.
[–]LucasTrask7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sure, just like if I ask my drunk friend for a ride home and then he gets arrested of DUI, totally my fault for getting his false/void consent to drive.
[–]NoSoul_Ginger-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I can't see how this have any connection to a sexual act between two or more persons.
[–]LucasTrask12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think we call it an "analogy."
[–]Codyyblake14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
intoxinated
[–]NoSoul_Ginger-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
ops, sorry not native english xP
[–]Lots421 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Don't have sex with drunk people.
[–]hitler_wasright-12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I need /r/MensRights because complaining about dumb shit women say advances Mens Rights
[–]TheGDBatman7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I need /r/MensRights because stupid trolls mock the very idea of men having rights.
They mock the idiots like you, not the idea of the MRM.
Edit. Should I even point out the irony of all this?
[–]Disorderly-Conduct1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is directly related to men's rights, women crying rape because they didn't have the confidence to say no. Men can't reasonably be expected to read women's minds and confirm their consent when the women can't even confirm it themselves. Unlike these feminists, I treat women like adults the same as men and expect them to voice their opinion despite pressures to do otherwise.
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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[–]3rdfloorrowdy-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kronox1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]3rdfloorrowdy-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kronox3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]chevalier_d_eon22 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]oneiorosgrip19 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]arturitoburrito1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]oneiorosgrip1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HokesOne-10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]oneiorosgrip4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jundis0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]IameAuhSomme1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]chevalier_d_eon3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Fallout61 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]J-Nice47 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]secret_tiger10114 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RahsaanRolandKirk4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]withoutamartyr2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nacholibrary13 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]woodchopperak4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]emu902 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Sarstan1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]thedevguy26 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Fallout10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notnotnotfred17 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MRB20125 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MRMRising1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notnotnotfred1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notnotnotfred1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]thedevguy13 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]hughyet0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]wolfdogrhit3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]oneiorosgrip8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Gothiks15 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CuntSmellersLLP4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]weeglos3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]seenloitering1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Suitecake4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bam3597 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]huisme1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]beefstickmcrocket0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rofl_pilot3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]yaro994 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]FuckYeahPeanutButter4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]davidcwilliams3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]davidcwilliams3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]junkyard220 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]capitanestevan0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Mordilaa0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]grantmcdowell-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Arcnsparc-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BaffleMan-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rogersmith251 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]chevalier_d_eon1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Slutmiko1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]stemgang11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Admiral_Nowhere3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]InglenookWyck0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notarapist720 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nlakes509 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notacrackheadofficer361 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]chaos201154 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RahsaanRolandKirk-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ekaceerf38 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ottothepup26 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bodertz14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SuperSaiyanNoob15 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]adidasimwearing8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]stemgang5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]McFeely_Smackup0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona96 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bodertz29 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]evilbrent1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bodertz1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Hypersapien8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Surf_Science1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Hypersapien1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm50 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot18 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]wonkifier10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]brailled_stars1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TrouserTorpedo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TrouserTorpedo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TrouserTorpedo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Lawtonfogle1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]evilbrent1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CDClock-13 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CDClock2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ChosenSloth-23 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Whisper5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lazlounderhill34 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]thegreyhoundness11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JAMbalaya131 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tonytwotoes5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JAMbalaya13-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lazlounderhill2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]iongantas2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nacholibrary1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]bridgecrewdave1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]InglenookWyck-19 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jady197116 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]InglenookWyck-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jady19716 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]InglenookWyck-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jady19713 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]futbolsven3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]InglenookWyck-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notacrackheadofficer1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kallistic166 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]elverloho179 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kallistic88 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Wolf_Protagonist79 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notcaptainkirk73 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]GerhardtDH11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]cuteman7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Lawtonfogle1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Cyridius8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notacrackheadofficer0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]hippiechan6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Stephen_Morgan2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kallistic28 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]unaru2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nacholibrary1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AndTheSonsofDisaster1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]englad-11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kallistic24 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]PieMasterBob7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CDClock1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CDClock2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CDClock1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notacrackheadofficer1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ddxxdd1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]englad1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]montereyo0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Cyridius10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]KettleCellar8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheGDBatman1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]literallyschmiteraly6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]englad-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]literallyschmiteraly3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]WiWiWiWiWiWi6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]NeverFinishAnyMaille131 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Neurotikitty69 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]girlwriteswhat22 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tlkuvic8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tossout0000001 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Strange_Dragons1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]pjwork1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Strange_Dragons1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Domer20121 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Janununuh15 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nrjk2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]panzercaptain5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ihatecatsdiekittydie2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]KWBC241 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]zialover100 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]24 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rogersmith2520 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rogersmith251 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]bibblyboop11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]mods-are-super-dicks3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ddxxdd1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notarapist721 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notnotnotfred1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]WhiteThrone75 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ExpendableOne45 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ChosenSloth5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Cyridius19 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]IAmConquistador5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MisterFriday1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]mrdizzy0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Nerdasaurusrexx41 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notacrackheadofficer33 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]synnndstalker27 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]38 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]mister_ghost16 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ItsObviousYouMoron3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ItsObviousYouMoron-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jenniferinalaska1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sortofheathery21 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]synnndstalker10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sortofheathery8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]checkyourlogic5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sortofheathery6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sortofheathery3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]davanillagorilla0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sortofheathery1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]checkyourlogic4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BlueRoseLunatic3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]LucasTrask2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nopurposeflour1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nobody200025 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]adomorn7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nobody20005 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]contrarianism20 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics19 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Chervenko11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ReverendSalem10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ReverendSalem7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ReverendSalem7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Cyridius0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]I_divided_by_0-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ReverendSalem1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CosmicKeys3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]libertasmens10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]boss10009 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]boss10000 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lordtyp02 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]boss10001 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lordtyp02 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]boss10001 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lordtyp02 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]boss10001 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Ziu7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Old-Hickory-6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Old-Hickory-4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheGDBatman3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]posthuman012 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]A_Nihilist6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]spatulaboy6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]harryballsagna6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Funcuz14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Idiopathic773 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Idiopathic777 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Idiopathic771 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Idiopathic772 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Idiopathic771 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jaheiner5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tessie9995 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ms47203 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tessie9991 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ms47202 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tessie9991 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ms47202 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tessie9991 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Hikikomori5235 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sommelier3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]parannoyedandroid5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MrMilky205 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]doules1074 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MaunaLoona11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lordfransie4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kallistic1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MildlyInconvenient4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]GADBabaganoosh4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]twelveovertwo4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]mrmcdude-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BalllsackTBaghard3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]notnotnotfred0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]athornton4363 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lazydonovan4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]silverscreemer3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ipoopgreatness3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]gypsywhisperer3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SplashyMetal5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]gypsywhisperer1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SplashyMetal3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]gypsywhisperer1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SplashyMetal1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]gypsywhisperer1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lucky_shiner3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]bnpruitt20123 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]only_does_reposts1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fia_bui3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]kragshot3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]moorethanafeeling3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Loluwism3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]UseKnowledge3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Capitalsman3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]XDingoX833 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JAMbalaya133 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Nomenimion2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]littlerabbitbite3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Nipplestoker2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]freelollies2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]literallyschmiteraly1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SplosionMan2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JesusChristSuperDick2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ImClever2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Noel_S_Jytemotiv2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]daulm2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]DrDerpberg2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]DirtyBirdNJ2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lazydonovan1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]OMNEG2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CrayAB2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kalfos2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]buttholemacgee2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Woden8881 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]LegoAllTheThings2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Woden8881 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]galt881 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Garnack1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MarkFluffalo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SMZ721 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]303030303030301 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Wheels2791 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheGDBatman5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Wheels2791 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheGDBatman1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Wheels2790 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ClickclickClever1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Wheels2791 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Lots423 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]otellolino1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]lazlounderhill1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fishing-for-downvote1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]deathsythe1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]PeterArching1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Jimmysal1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]KWBC241 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jokoon1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Rio_Bravo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]girlsgonekyle1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MRB20121 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ghebert0011 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]gameboyhippo1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]zanpher7171 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheAlmightyProphet1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]hades_loves_you1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]DasWeisseBand1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Sirinon1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheDongerNeedsFood0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Mythandros0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]qwert_trewq0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jady19710 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]DigitalDemiGod0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]vader320 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]zialover100 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nrjk0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Khathaar0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Derp1121-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Orlando1701-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]seenloitering-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]femgal-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Piss_Marks_MY_Spot-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TychoCelchu-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HalfysReddit2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]doomsought-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ttnorac-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]NoSoul_Ginger-6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ncstategopackjack9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HigglyBumps1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ncstategopackjack1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]LucasTrask7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]NoSoul_Ginger-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]LucasTrask12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Codyyblake14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]NoSoul_Ginger-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Lots421 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]hitler_wasright-12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheGDBatman7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Disorderly-Conduct1 point [recovered] | Copy Link