Just Feminism.

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[–]Alzael1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What makes YOU think I already assumed this?

Nothing,that's what it means when someone says "if".

Edit:It was merely to point out the fact to you that there is a possibility that your position has some confirmation bias attached to it.Given that you haven't given any concrete reasons or explanations, your position does not seem to be factually based.It very well could be,of course, but you haven't shown it.Just said "because I've seen it".

Also you're acting like I said "don't help the men, help the women."

No, I'm not. Because you didn't say that. If you had said that,I would have made a different criticism.

I can tell someone is suffering without having to suffer. If someone fell off a bike and smacked their head on a rock, I don't have to do the same to know what it's like.

Yes but that was not the contention. Whether one side suffers or not is irrelevant. You are trying to claim that one group is suffering more than the other. The specific example was women being raped versus boys being enslaved.

I asked you what makes you qualified to decide that one group is suffering more.

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[–]Alzael1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are saying that one group of millions of people is suffering more than another group of millions of people. I am asking why you are qualified to make such a claim.Do you have evidence, facts, an objective measuring system?What gives you this insight into all of these people that lets you make such a claim.

I'm a guy, I lived there, we had it much better off.

Which,as I said, is entirely anecdotal.Which qualifies you for nothing more than talking about your own personal experiences. But you are speaking on the circumstances of millions and rating one group as suffering more than another based on....what exactly?

My point, is that your position in response to the OP is based on nothing but ignorance. And yet you are trying to say that one group of people suffers more than another and, by extension, should receive more help for said suffering.

And,when questioned why, you have nothing to say but "I lived there",and that's it.Nothing else is offered,which is why I brought up the fact that you likely just assumed this from the start and confirmed your assumptions. Because you have offered nothing else.

Hence the question.What qualifies you to determine how much other people have suffered?Especially people in the millions.Who are you to say that being raped is worse than being enslaved?Tell me what insight you have to make these claims.

[–]TheDerpyDonut1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Alzael1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women cannot drive

One country.And it's done, with the idea in mind that it makes womens lives easier.Not to oppress them.Whether it has that effect is a more debatable matter of course.

they are disowned and punished, sometimes executed if they are raped

That happens to men who are raped too.Or at least if the man ever lets people find out.I don't know what the rate of male rape is over there, but it's probably not too dissimiliar to the west so men and women would have about the same rate of rapes occurring to them.

and they have to wear the religious clothing over their face.

That varies from country to country.It's the restriction on men and women to dress modestly (ie not sexually).Just that mens faces aren't considered sexual so they don't have to cover it.But it's the same oppression applied to both genders.

So,that out of the way.

Men face greater danger from violence of almost any kind.More likely to be injured or maimed.Especially on the job.Trafficking in humans for labour is largely boys. etc.

Men must pay mehrieh to their wives (and nafaqa) and can be jailed for not doing so,in fact this is often used as a threat by women.

Men are required to pay for every living expense that a woman requires by law,whereas he has no control over how she spends her own money (in fact he can't even consult with her about it and she has no obligation to use it for anything she doesn't want to).Meaning that even if she has a job he is the sole worker in the family and has to shoulder every financial burden himself.Also a man cannot divorce a woman without her permission or paying a massive amount of money to her.

In fact,men bear almost every social and societal obligation/burden in the Middle East.That's actually the reason behind women being required to obey the men.Yes, it is oppressive to the women,but it's also oppressive to the men who have the responsibility (legally and religiously enforced) to expend their time money and effort to care for and be responsible for them.Women have absolutely no responsibilities to anyone or anything.They don't even have to pay for their childrens clothes if they don't want to.Of course most women will still take care of their kids, because they aren't sociopaths. But they have absolutely nothing expected of them by society.

See the problem with people doing what you want to do is that a lot of these "oppression" things work both ways.They're a benefit and a disadvantage. The same is true with a lot of these "privilege" things. They're an advantage, and a burden.

The problem with people like feminsts is that they only pay attention to the disadvantage, ignoring the benefit and demand the privilege while also denying the burden.

It's not actually that simple as, this group suffers more.

The men aren't enslaved over there, so I have no idea which country you are talking about.

That was the whole indentured thing that had been the initial discussion which you initially responded to.

Your examples read like you got them from a feminist forum.Not like you actually understand what you're talking about.Or if you do,you seem to be ignoring a lot of variables.

But again, you still refuse to answer my question. What gives you the right to judge the suffering of one group over another?

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I'll dispute it. In Afghanistan, boys as young as five are required to work 12-14 hour days to support their mothers and sisters. Boys and men are the overwhelming victims of violence, both by foreign occupiers and domestic police/soldiers. Programs are created to uplift girls while ignoring boys.

The reality is that both men and women have more sympathy for women and girls. It's just biology. Men are the disposable sex. So we naturally assume that atrocities committed against women are infinitely worse than atrocities committed against men and boys. The CIA certainly recognizes this, which is why documents exposed by Wikileaks reveal a concerted effort by the American government to highlight women's issues in the middle east while virtually ignoring men's issues.

Many women in Saudi Arabia have no desire to drive; they prefer being treated like "princesses" with male chauffeurs (see Karen Straughan's analysis). Similarly, it was only when a majority of women in the US actually WANTED the right to vote that male politicians gave it to them -- many women from the time period were concerned that they would be obligated (like men) to fight the state's wars. As it turns out, no such obligation was demanded.

And we wonder which sex is more "privileged"?

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[–]Alzael3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A straw man is a sham argue ment set up to be defeated.

No.A strawman is an argument in which one acts as though they have refuted a proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition.

I provided one counter example to your claim to show how it wasn't universally true.

But I never claimed that it was. Hence the strawman.

What I said was that attitudes like his are the impetus for the oppression olympics that are so indicative of feminism.

I then asked him what he thinks gives him the right to judge who suffers more.

I am not claiming that I know how to quantify all situations, only that your assertion was false in that it's possible to quantify in the first place.

Point to me where I mentioned quantification? Because I don't recall ever doing that.That was what you said.Which is why its a strawman.

I would also point out,not that it matters,that you didn't quantify anything.Saying that one is worth than the other is not a quantification. To quantify is to express the quantity of something. I must have missed where you did that.

Edit:What you seem to be trying to refer to is comparing human suffering.Not quantifying it.But again, it's an argument against nothing that anyone actually said aside from the woodpecker in your head.

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feminism ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/ noun noun: feminism

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. synonyms:   the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation,

You're thinking of the perverted thing that's called feminism nowadays. I'm talking about equal rights for women. The way those women burning their bras did.

Read my original comment. Did I mention what you just said? No. Don't fucking assume things just because it's not said. You can't fix everything at the same time however. And at this point girls and women getting disowned, abused or even killed because they were the victim of rape is more important than men's right there. NOT saying that it isn't important, though you'll probably twist my words now, I'm saying that the slight to women's rights in those countries are worse at the moment and should be dealt with first.

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This is absolutely brilliant! I've always cause trouble with feminists and I'm called out on my opinions and they always state arguments like "women fought for your rights, you should respect them" etc etc. Certain feminists don't seem to understand the sheer hypocrisy of some of the things they say. I have never felt "oppressed" by men and wasn't even aware of that until feminists tried to align every male action as oppressive in some way. If a man tries to chat me up, I tell him where to go. I make it perfectly clear I'm not interested and generally men leave you alone after that. Yes you get some weirdos but you shouldn't stick around out of spite, just because you shouldn't have to deal with how these men are behaving. If somebody is acting inappropriately towards me, I'm going to fucking leave. I'm not going to strike up some bullshit feminist argument how I shouldn't have to leave just because of this person's lack of respect for me. It is highly unlikely to change his behaviour if he hasn't already accepted a clear "No. Fuck off." Why would I want to remain in potential danger (as I am told that all men are dangerous??)? I don't need feminism because the fact I am a woman does not share every facet of my life. My career, my interests, my opinions are not formed on the basis of my sex. And I don't feel being female has hindered any aspect of my life.

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And if you've been to India or heard of the things that go on there, you might understand why I support female rights (a man that participated in a gang rape and a murder said that the woman shouldn't have struggled if she wanted to live. And there are more examples if you look. Then there are also extremists that don't even want women to become educated. And of course the famous acid attacks). We have it pretty damn good in the West. Sure, there are problems, but my problems don't seem so bad compared to places where it's common to punish women for having sex without being married or throw acid in their faces for not doing what they are supposed to. Patriarchy is very subtle in most Western countries, but especially in the Nordic countries (Icelander here. And sexual equality seems pretty nice. The biggest thing about it right now is #freethenipple, which is about women wanting to be able to be naked above the waist like men, be it in swimming pools, summer heat or wherever they want).

I would also appreciate a source for your claim. I'm interested in finding more about it.

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[–]theQuandary2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you want the real facts or someone's interpretation of them in a short sound bite?

If you listened to Feminism, you would be very likely to hear "one in four women will be raped" based on the Mary Koss study. If you read the study, then you learn it's actually one in five were sexually assaulted. You learn that about three fourths of those counted rape victims did not feel they had been raped. You learn that she made assuptions about unreported incidents. You learn her objective was inductive (prove rape is prevelant) instead of deductive (see what the data shows). This list goes on, but you'll never learn the facts unless you read the pdf.

Feminists have a problem responding to MRA (and many egalitarians here) because MRA read the facts instead of trusting the sound bite. Skimming the pdf (if nothing else) at least gives you some familiarity and ALL decent papers are going to have an abstract which is the 1000 foot view.

Finally, I post PDFs because I'm okay with questions. I'm not afraid that you'll look over my facts and find a problem (and if you do, I want to know). Until it is proved otherwise, my assumption is always that you are here for the whole truth and not for mindless doctrine.

[–]MagnusTheGreat1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok, so let me get this straight: Do you think feminists are bad? Cause we can throw data at each other and shout until our lungs start decaying without budging in our beliefs, but I would rather just get our own opinions.

My opinion is that, yes, there are some extreme feminists. However, I have never met them and without the internet, I wouldn't even know about them and they don't really effect my life in any way. However, I have met a lot of feminists that just want to have an equal standing to men and stand up for themselves if discriminated against, but will not fight against you if you offer to help, cause they know that they aren't capable of everything, because no one is capable of everything. And I wouldn't consider myself one, although I do support female rights. But I also support male rights.

[–]theQuandary1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My post was about the importance of reading actual papers instead of listening to some person's take on them. Your response seems to be completely unrelated to anything I said.

Now to answer your unrelated points:

My stance is that Feminism and equality for everyone are very different things. I would argue that the so-called first wave feminists did relatively little (the right to vote was already happening, but at least they didn't do too much that was actually damaging). In contrast, the mostly unrelated neo-Feminist movement dating back to the 60's has been very harmful to society and any small benefits have been overwhelmed by the damage done to society.

Most Americans are moderate, but that has very little to do with the American government. Most Americans oppose the government spying on US citizens, but the legislation to allow that spying continues.

You can say whatever you like about the feminists you know. I'm sure they are moderate (like most people). The feminists that write the textbooks to teach the next generation of children or the feminists that push through legislation are far removed from the people you know. These feminists have a lot more in common with those politicians. Until your friends are affecting the actual law, all the name does is give passive support for the abusive legislation being forced onto us by people acting in that same name.

[–]MagnusTheGreat1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Now to answer your unrelated points:

First of all, this is a very related point. Why? Because we are arguing about feminism. So it is more than reasonable to actually ask your opinion about it. It's the first thing I should have done.

And yes. Equality for everyone is much, much broader, and better, than feminism. Equality is not about feminism (well, not only), but feminism is about equality. And it is not perfect. Far from it. But it is good.

And my country has been relatively equal since it was settled 1000 years ago. Women had a relatively equal stance with men and inside the house, women had more power (as in, the woman ruled the house, the man ruled the fields). Women gained the right to vote in 1915, 3 years before the country became sovereign, even though women over 40 were only allowed to vote. And the thing is, 9 years earlier, the people of Iceland were first allowed to vote independently from Denmark, although we got legislative and financial power in internal affairs in 1874.

I am telling you this, because it shows how early, what we now would call feminist movements, started here. It's a part of our culture to have a strong women's movement, even though we're not quite equal yet. And in 1980, we had the first female president in Europe.

In other words, your country and my country are very different it seems in terms of feminism. I mean, just 2 or 3 days ago, a movement started called #Freethenipple. Women all over the country exposed their breasts and want to be able to show their breasts without being objectified. Women went to pools with no tops on and were allowed to show their nipples, just like men are, without the fear of being slut-shamed. Yes, the first few days were pretty great, but the more boobs you see in non-sexual context, the less you notice. These women are basically just saying " If you think breasts are always sexual, then here you go. Fap until you get sick of it and then you can finally realize that it's no different from any other part of the body (if you've ever seen a facial, and you think it is hot, you don't get a boner from seeing the woman's face).

And abuse against men is getting a bit of coverage in the news here, so there's that as well. Partially because of the feminist movement.

We are trying to gain social equality and it seems to be slowly moving along to the better. And that is a reason why I support feminists. Not because they get all the attention, but because they also bring attention to other causes, even though it can be accidental. And if you'd go to places like Singapore (my gf is from there), you'd notice quite a lot of discrimination against women and social standards. But also against men. For example, men are seen as feminine if they are walking outside with their kid without the mother. Same with cooking. My gf's father has never cooked in the 27 years he's been married. He can, but won't cause the wife is supposed to do that. And it gave me a glimpse of another world that is totally different from mine.

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[+]MagnusTheGreat -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

And how many Americans and Europeans do you know that approved of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Only a few soldiers from the West actually fight (compared to the entire force), but a huge majority of people support their cause. The only difference is that one side is wealthy and supported by their government, the other is people that want to restore order (even if it is incredibly harsh and unfair and murderous) to a country destroyed by war and assassinations from the West.

Oh, and remind me of who financed Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets.

Then there is also the fictional side of war. The people that support war are almost always the ones that have never seen what it does. The families it rips apart, the people it kills, the people it cripples... It's the same with extreme racists. They usually don't talk to the people they want to be killed or deported and therefor know only what other people tell them that are equally ignorant. You know the people that want to join ISIS? Well, a lot of the people that join them want to return, cause it's so much different than they thought.

When I was younger, in my teens, I wanted to become a soldier. I love guns and explosions and to be honest, huge numbers fascinate me. I really like big battles and huge wars. Which is why the Battle of Stalingrad and the Battle of Kursk have been my favorite battles. 2 million people died in Stalingrad alone in 8 months. But the more I learned, the less I wanted to fight. It is said that 80% of a soldiers life in the front line is waiting. Waiting and being bored. Extremely bored. And then 20% of the time is terrifying. Explosions, people you see as your own brothers die around you and you might even kill someone...It won't settle in yet, but 1 year, 10 years, or 20 years down the line, you might suddenly realize that you killed someone that was just like you. And that is what is the scary part. The people you hate and think are so different and vile and disgusting are just like you. And most of them are just normal people that struggle in life. The rest are soldiers that have friends and family, love their country and want to fight for it...

TL;DR: Ask the people that say they support these things whom they think is to blame. Ask them how they'd react if they saw people they hated killed. If they say "I would stand there solid like a rock and smile", ask them how they would react if you'd cut their dogs throat and held his head up in victory. Cause someone will feel much stronger emotions seeing their father killed in front of them.

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[–]MagnusTheGreat-5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

NO SHIT, they are a blood soaked genocidal theocratic war band. You've had to much liberal arts kool aide to call that what it is. Evil plain and simple.

Evil is not black and white. What one considers good, another sees as bad. People who owned slaves didn't consider it bad. They did what they wanted, cause they thought of them as cattle. It is the same view the ISIS have. They think their enemies are the bad ones, that they are people that want to destroy their religion and countries. I agree that what they are doing is evil and extremely fucking bad, but they were not born evil. They didn't come out of their mothers womb with a gun in hand and words of hate in their mouth. ISIS is ignorance in its worst form.

"normal people that struggle in life. The rest are soldiers that have friends and family, love their country and want to fight for it..." No they're fucking not you slobbering coward, these men are literally the living embodiment of cruelty, and mid-evil retardation.

We shape the environment and we are shaped by it. A country of war breeds violence. Don't you think it is weird how all the worst human beings seem to come from countries that are in a war or were at war? I can name countless evil men that were shaped by war and ignorance, but only a few that were shaped by wisdom and peace. I am oversimplifying a bit, but there is a correlation between war, ignorance and evil men. Just think about it. Where did the men in ISIS come from? I highly doubt a hole to hell opened up and the demons streamed out to bring death, misery and devastation. You don't just suddenly drop what your doing and think "I am going to kill some infidels right now". Let's take Hitler for example, cause he is a great example. Before 1914, he was just a normal man. He was from Austria and had been a painter. After Germany lost the war, he thought it was because of the Jews. And a political party was getting on its feet, called the National Socialist party. He also wrote a book that was very popular, partially because he was a good at persuading people and partially because of the defeat. Soon, he became the main leader of the Nazi party, even though it had very few members. But in less than 15 years, it became the biggest party in Germany and he came to rule. And suddenly, probably more, a lot more than 8.5 million people were part of it (in 1945). In 25 years, it grew from less than 60 members to 8.5 MILLION.

My point is, these 8.5 million people weren't bad. But you can persuade good people to do bad things. You tell them that they are good, and that their enemies are bad, wicked and destructive. You tell them that all the misfortune in the past is because of those people. You teach them to hate them and bring a barrier between you and them. You focus on the differences, not the similarities. Religion, race, culture...All are great points to differentiate. You fool them. And then they will fight for you and do what you tell them, cause you can protect them.

That is what ISIS is doing to their members and the people that are willing to listen. From the outside, it seems mad and insane, but how else would you get over 8.5 million people to join you.

TL;DR: I challenge you to see them not as demons and evil beings, but as humans. Imagine them before ISIS. See from their point of view, cause they sure as hell won't look at you from another point of view. If you don't try to understand your enemy, you will both be consumed by war, hate and misery. Unfortunately, it seems the only way to destroy their ignorance is to kill them with it. But even Japan changed. In 1941, no one would have believed that Japan would become one of the best allies of the USA in under 50 years.

And no. I was not equating USA to ISIS. I said that the USA made the area unstable, therefor it became a breeding ground for groups like ISIS.

[–]WorkyMcWorkmeister2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MagnusTheGreat-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As with the Nazis/Japanese in your example we will slaughter them until they cease committing atrocities.

Is that why the Soviet Union got away with killing over 20 million people, mostly through starvation? Is it why China got away with up to 30 million deaths after World War 2? Rwanda in '94 saw 1 million or more of its people slaughtered. You tell me it's about the people and freedom. It's not. It's about power, money and resources. And if evil can only be resolved by overwhelming strength, tell me why so many good men died on both sides in WW2. Why did so many civilians die. Why did so many behind the Nazi war machine survive? And why, if ISIS is so horrifying, is no one doing anything about it? Because the people that care are the ones in danger and the ones in danger are civilians that belong to Syria and Iraq. Until that changes, the West will watch and not endanger their own soldiers, but instead attack from the sky.

[–]WorkyMcWorkmeister2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MagnusTheGreat-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am complaining that instead of educating, people are bombing and killing each other. For fucks sake man...This all could have been prevented if some idiotic fucktards hadn't decided to destabilize the entire region. And instead of changing methods, you want to continue doing what doesn't work. It's like fighting global warming by burning more fossil fuel. I would not want to attack ISIS, but rather defend the people that suffer. And it would be incredibly hard to stabilize the area again...Which is why it's considered better to just bomb the shit out of it when it gets full of extremists again. And if the bombings stop, they will take over it. It's a vicious cycle and no one is doing fucking anything to stop it, because it takes more than just going "uuhhh doihh...bomb'em."

When Osama Bin Laden was killed, what happened? ISIS came and took Al Qaeda's place as the big boss of shitthrowing. And you know what? These guys are even more brutal and more organized...Way to fucking go Bomb-the-shit-out-of-them technique.

Get your fucking head out of your huge ass and you might see that not everyone is a piece of shit that needs a bombing.

[–]WorkyMcWorkmeister3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]MagnusTheGreat-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't blame Bush. He had to respond to someone else making a mistake and didn't handle it terribly well, for quite obvious reasons (the US attacked, people wanted a war and they got it, cause Murica doesn't take shit). I blame those that destabilized the region by taking out, one way or another, the democratically elected leaders that were trying to fix some of the mess the countries were in.

Meaningless gibberish. Killing murders is protecting victims

And if you kill the victims, there are none left for the murderers, so that is equally good.

And what if they all die? what then? Who will take control? And what if even a more extreme group replaces them and expands? You can't just bomb something and expect the problem to go away. You need to build and restore order to the area. Fucking hell, I mean, it was done in Japan...And Vietnam. And Germany. And loads of other countries. But Syria and Iraq and all those other countries are too much...Yep, "desert monkeys" outsmart the richest countries in the world with some of the best technologies in the world. I mean, if you can make a bomb with a computer in it that is dropped by a flying computer that is controlled half a world away, surely stabilizing a country is too hard...It's not like it was done in at least 5 countries (large countries with huge populations) in a relatively short amount of time or anything...

Guess the West isn't as good as we think...Possibly gotten a bit worse as a whole since the height of the Cold War.

[–]WorkyMcWorkmeister3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And if you kill the victims, there are none left for the murderers, so that is equally good. And what if they all die? what then? Who will take control?

what. in. the. fuck. are. you. talking. about.

This is literally gibberish, no one is advocating killing everyone. That's some kind of retarded self loathing revisionist narrative that's not even remotely internally consistent.

"at least 5 countries (large countries with huge populations) in a relatively short amount of time" You literally have no idea what you're talking about. These countries recovered because we slaughtered an entire generation, traumatized a population into unconditional surrender by brute, and atomic, force. These people rebuilt because they weren't still committed to destroying their own country and they recognized that ongoing resistance to America's will was fruitless and far too costly. ISIS hasn't figured that out yet, but they will.

And guess what?! They are now the most productive countries on the planet, with free and representative societies.

The West is as the best, simple as that. You can bitch and moan, gnashing your teeth and tearing at your hair with your made up nonsense. America will go on governing the planet without a care for your idiotic and utterly unhinged input.

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Almost every feminist I know isn't "like that," just as every Christian I know isn't a bible-thumping fundamentalist. This still isn't an argument for Feminism or Christianity. I can reject the ideology without thinking the worst of its followers.

Religious groups do some good in the world. They help the homeless, provide comfort to people at the end of life, offer community and comforting traditions. Still, that doesn't mean the faith is right, and it can lead to well-meaning people doing a lot of harm.

Feminists do a lot of good, too. They support the LGBT and black communities, promote awareness of women's rights issues (some valid, many kinda BS...), and motivate discussions of gender in academia. Still, the ideology does directly lead to people doing a lot of harm, especially when it comes to universities and the legal system.

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[–]3636363636-15 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hate to hijack a top comment but I was taught that there is no such thing as common sense. The person that taught me that was an amazing lady who was a traffic school instructor. I fucked up multiple times after buying a Cayenne Turbo. Back to back reckless tickets. 20 mph over trying to get to work on time...I know, I'm a monster.

I digressed a bit but the lesson was that what is common sense to you might not be common sense to me.

The example that she gave, which I think is poignant, was that of a person that got pulled over in an Eastern European country. Common sense in that country would be to bribe the cop that pulled that person over, but if you applied that same "common sense" in America, you would probably be hauled off to jail.

Maybe I'm off base with this comment, logic and situational knowledge should always be a primary factor for our actions but that little lesson I learned has stuck with me.

To me, common sense would be to speak the truth and be honest about your observations. The world could only be better off for it right? I don't think I'm too far off to say that if you use "common sense" and speak truth to power about so many things that MRAs talk about, it will only hurt you...man or woman.

Sorry people. Been up all night drinking. I guess my point is that common sense to you might not be common sense to me.

[–]Amunium6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]3636363636-10 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Speaking of terrible arguments...

Your argument is super flawed. It's only sensible to wear a warm coat when it's cold. That has nothing to do with wearing a coat in a warm climate for no reason.

I'm from Alaska btw, not that means much but because I was alive in Alaska during some very warm times your analogy is pretty fucking inane.

Common sense is a concept more than it is an actual defined thing.

"Common sense" is simply a framework within which people can easily come to fast conclusions based on the context of a particular social group....big or small. Geographical region applies for many reasons.

You said this, "The sensible action would be to do what you know." Right there you just agreed with me whether you know it or not.

In some areas of Africa is "common sense" to rape a Pygmy or hack off the arm of an albino for the magical benefits of those actions. If you REALLY BELIEVED that raping a Pygmy imbued you with magical luck and you had the chance to rape a Pygmy and you didn't do it, people there would think that you didn't use common sense to rape a Pygmy when you had the chance.

But like I said, didn't mean to hijack the top post. This conversation is inconsequential.

It's just that I don't think "common sense" should be a thing. There's no science or real truth behind that concept and it's relative as fuck.

edit: some grammar and some other stuff

[–]Amunium4 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's only sensible to wear a warm coat when it's cold. That has nothing to do with wearing a coat in a warm climate for no reason.

Uh... what?

I was alive in Alaska during some very warm times your analogy is pretty fucking inane.

Seriously? That's what you're going to hang on to? You couldn't figure out that it was an example, and I just randomly picked some place that's generally considered cold, while still being pretty well known?

I actually considered saying Novaya Zemlya, but I thought many people wouldn't know what that was. Could have said Antarctica, of course.

But you do realise these are hypothetical examples used to convey an argument, and pointing out tiny flaws in them in no way constitutes a counter-argument, right?

Anyway, there doesn't have to be science behind something for it to be a useful term or expression. Yes, common sense can vary somewhat in meaning from person to person - just like literally every other word in existence. That doesn't make it useless.

[–]3636363636-5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Man, loving the stupidity of this conversation.

"Seriously? That's what you're going to hang on to? You couldn't figure out that it was an example, and I just randomly picked some place that's generally considered cold, while still being pretty well known?" - you

I said this, "I'm from Alaska btw, not that means much."

Did you notice the "not that that mean much" part? Yet you use that as a major point. That's cute.

You also said this, "Anything else is like saying that because it's sensible to wear a warm coat in Alaska and it's not sensible to wear one in Ethiopia, it's suddenly no longer sensible in Alaska either."

To quote you, "Uh... what?"

Uh... what?

"Anyway, there doesn't have to be science behind something for it to be a useful term or expression" - you

I agree with you here. But what we're now talking about is the efficacy of the term/concept/whatever of "common sense."

What I'm saying is that "common sense" isn't a thing. It doesn't really exist because it's reliant on a cultural, geographical, and a billion other factors. What works here doesn't work there. You're agreed with me twice now based on what you wrote.

Proof: "Anyway, there doesn't have to be science behind something for it to be a useful term or expression. Yes, common sense can vary somewhat in meaning from person to person"- you

Common sense can vary right? That's pretty much what I'm saying. If common sense can vary, then common sense is not so common is it? Things that are common don't vary so much.

Here's the definition of common. COMMON

Here's the first part of that definition: of or relating to a community at large

Whoops! Look at that! Relating to a community at large! Sound familiar?

Like I said twice before, there is no such thing as "common sense" because "common sense" is dependent on where you live. I might not have used those words exactly but that's what I'm saying. Common sense is not a universal concept.

Don't care ab the down votes, in fact they are expected because this dumb conversation isn't relevant.

You're wrong. I'm right.

[–]wanked_in_space3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]3636363636-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Lauzon_ 23 points24 points25 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Since this was front-paged I'm gonna hijack the top post and link to the work of Karen Straughan. She posts here occasionally and will hopefully chime in on this thread.

Me a feminist? No way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeCCuFFO8

Is Feminism hate? [skip to the 20 min. mark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYAVROaIcs

How Feminism conned society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozEFVPDxeg

Benevolent sexism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VupEC0cAWo

The Tyranny of Female Hypoagency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBgcjtE0xrE

Feminism and the Disposable Male.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA

A few good videos by Lindy Beige on female power in history:

Women power in the past

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrgovSZ32Yg

Sex Power: when women were different and men were disposable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSX7iT0n65Q

Nice summary of Issues here: Why we need a men's rights movement

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2xmm3p/i_cant_believe_people_think_we_dont_need_a_mens/

Good reading:

The Myth of Male Power

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell-ebook/dp/B00IDHV5EM

The Privileged Sex

http://www.amazon.com/Privileged-Sex-Martin-van-Creveld-ebook/dp/B00EX5PJC2/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403378&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=privilged+sex

No More Sex War

http://www.amazon.com/More-Sex-War-Neil-Lyndon/dp/1856191915/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403395&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=no+more+sex+war

The Second Sexism

http://www.amazon.com/Second-Sexism-Discrimination-Against-Boys/dp/0470674512/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403501&sr=1-1&keywords=second+sexism

The War Against Boys

http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Policies/dp/1451644183/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403440&sr=1-1&keywords=war+against+boys

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I think we need to define feminism whenever we discuss it. I know some girls who call themselves feminist who really want female privilege instead of equality. But I also know girls who call themselves feminists who want actual equal rights between genders.

If we're bashing feminists, I feel it's important to define what we're bashing. Surely, /r/mensrights support equal rights?

EDIT: Okay, I just looked up a couple of difinitions of feminism.

The Oxford Dictionary says: "The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

Wikipedia says: "...to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment."

I think the classic definition is pretty clear. It's about giving women the same rights as men.

EDIT 2: A lot of you are arguing that all feminists are crazy, that feminism is hateful, and that feminists don't want equality. I never claimed that some feminists aren't like that. The whole point of my post was to remind you that we need to define what feminism is, when we're criticizing it. Also, lots of women call themselves feminists without being like you guys describe them. Some of you seem to think that all women are crazy. Good luck with that. Misogyny is bad, mm-kay?

[–]Pathfinder24 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]-Fender- 37 points38 points39 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

And in every single instance where feminists seek equal rights as men, we've supported them. What we take issue with is when they try to impose equal outcomes, even when equal opportunities were afforded.

What we argue against is legislative privileges and double standards being given to people on the sole basis of gender. We hate hypocrisy and support consistency in one's beliefs.

If someone labelling herself a feminists claims that she wants equality for all and actually acts and behaves in a way that is consistent with this statement, then we will take no issues whatsoever with her. An example of this would be Christina Hoff Sommers.

However, if they claim to support equality but only every argue about issues faced by a single gender, or if they argue in favour of female supremacy, then we will call them out. The large majority of feminists fit in this category. They might not all think that all men are horrible rapists and may not believe that the world would be better off without them, but they will still believe the feminist religious ideals of patriarchy (where being born a man is the original sin), and they will still believe that women should get recompense from men because they were born with that sin.

If someone does not believe in Patriarchy Theory, then I would not consider them a feminist, as that is probably the primary, core ideal of that ideology. If they do not believe in it and still support equality, then they would be Egalitarians. No matter what the dictionaries might say, this is basically where the divide resides nowadays.

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The people who label themselves as feminists have to understand that more and more, the distinction that I made is becoming the perspective of society. If they chose to label themselves as such, then they have to be aware that they will be perceived as supporting all of the anti-male propaganda done by feminists, as well as supporting all of the feminist politicians who are blocking bills that would grant men some of the same rights given to women.

A person can label herself as whatever the hell she wants. She can call herself a literal lemon, for all I care. Makes no difference to me. But their stated labels will have an impression on how people and society perceives them. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

So one should still give special attention to how he labels himself. If their beliefs are more egalitarian than feminist and they don't agree with what the feminists with legislative or societal power are currently doing, then they have to decide whether or not they wish to associate themselves with the actions of these people.

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The key distinction that everyone fails to make is the difference between equality of worth as persons and equality of function.

Feminists are dedicated to the perverse homogenization of gender functions. This is to force men and women to abandon their respective gender functions and to compete with each other at their complementary gender functions. It makes about as much sense as men competing against women at giving birth of women competing against men in an arm wrestling contest. Both will fail because they are neglecting their own gender functions to compete for a function that doesn't suit them.

Equality of worth as person however does not rely on equality of outcome. While men and women are both equally necessary because they each fulfill a vital gender function that the other cannot fulfill, their outcomes are not equal, as they were never meant to be. To unnaturally focus on equality of outcome as feminists have done is to destroy the harmonious gender functions of both men and women that are designed to complement each other.

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If being an MRA means thinking like that, I don't want to be an MRA. You are the opposite of what the MRA movement needs.

You must understand that this approach is divisive and will alienate any supporters sympathetic to our situation.

edit: Today I have witnessed the beginning of the end of MRA. This sub has become everything we hated about radFems. I have spent years defending the movement and in one fell swoop I have lost my stomach for it.

I will not be missed by this group because this is not my group. I have unsubscribed and will make sure that when I speak of MRAs, it will be in total truth. This group has become red pillers. This group has come to represent exactly what the radfems say we men are. If there are still people interested in men issues and equality for everyone, speak up and drive the red pillers out before the cause becomes irrelevant.

[–]Castigale 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This is gonna be a tough point, so try to follow along as best you can.

What about "men's rights" even comes close to suggesting "egalitarianism" is within the scope of focus? Granted the vast majority of PEOPLE (both men and women) are very much in favor of equality, but "Men's Rights" is concerned with Men's. Rights.

That does NOT suggest oppression, discrimination, segregation, or prejudice, but it also doesn't suggest a concern for equality on a wider societal scale. Men's Rights is concerned with fighting for issues that disenfranchise MEN. Its not a slight against anyone, its a promotion of better treatment for men in areas where injustice exists. All segments of society have they're own advocacy groups and they don't have to pretend to fight for the whole world to do so. Its not an insult towards others, its just a focus.

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[–]Castigale 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No. I'm afraid I never did understand Corky, but anyway, seems you wanna fight so lets talk.

Unless you are equally concerned for all genders, you will never see relief for yours.

You seem to imply that unless your advocacy is so broad and vague as to include concern for everyone, that in turn no one will want to join you. That kind of flies in the face of EVERY POLITICAL ISSUE IN OUR CULTURE. Do you honestly think that the Democrats or Republicans would be where they are now if they fought for every single issue all at once?

I'm sorry, corky, but that's just bad strategy.

Equality includes everyone, and I'm all for it, but that's why everyone needs their own representatives. Frankly, that's the only way it could possibly turn out. Even if the MRM took on equality for everyone, it would still have to splinter off into men's issues, female issue's, PoC issues, homosexual issues, etc.

Believe it or not, you need others to accept you in order for the movement to be successful. This is why radfem is failing and feminism is losing credibility. They are not for equality, they are for the destruction of men. You are advocating the same thing which will equally disastrous results.

Well Corky you got me on the first point. A movement DOES require supporters, and wouldn't you know it, a movement in favor of men's rights has the support of other men who find themselves in need of it.

And while I'd like to agree with you on the issue of radfems, I have to disagree on how that applies to the MRM. So far I've seen nothing to suggest the destruction of women or the repeal of women's rights, or hashtags similar to "killallmen". I've yet to see anyone laughing at a woman who had her boobs chopped off (as opposed to the women on 'The Talk' who are seen gleefully laughing over stories of men who had their penises brutally removed) Its really not the same.

[–]Demonspawn 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Demonspawn -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]StartTheRuckus 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminism and gender equality are different things to me, but that isn't necessarily a problem. I believe the problem stems when feminists claim that they are the same thing. Gender equality itself is just a part of general 'equality', something I think we all aim for. But it's a big, big word and saying "I just want equality for everyone" or "I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian" seems both unnecessary and impractical at getting anything done.
Humans work best when they can focus on one certain thing; it's the division of labour pretty much. People that fight for racial equality are, hopefully, also in favour of equal rights for LGBTQ people, but it would be impractical if they also had to actively fight for LGBTQ rights, and rights for the disabled etc. in the name of 'equality'. As long as a supporter of racial equality doesn't hinder the progress of equality in general, that's fine, and that's why focusing on the rights of women is fine, too.
The problem comes when feminism tries to equate itself with gender equality, or even equality as a whole: it belittles the problems men face, and it ignores them. This is /r/mensrights, I don't need to list the inequalities faced by males in our society today. If a person would rather fight against the injustices faced by females instead, of which there are still many, that's fine! Similarly, if they'd rather be an LGBTQ activist, that's also their choice to make. But when feminism is seen as 'gender equality for everyone', as it claims and strives itself to be, things like 'men's rights' are seen as unnecessary, when that's clearly not true.
There's nothing wrong with feminism, in general; in fact I believe it was and still can be a very good thing, though one I am not personally interested in. The problem is feminism parading around like it's the be-all, end-all of equality when it is far from that, and silencing the views of others that work towards better lives for other groups, or dare to question some of the more 'out there' goals and statements of feminism.

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[–]Feminism_Is_Evil3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

/r/Feminism isn't "feminism".

Look around, you fool. How often do you see us talking about /r/feminism? Almost never. When it comes to feminism we talk about actions and rhetoric from different sectors of the movement, across a broad range of websites.

But that's okay, I understand that you're only going to see what you want to see, because . . .

Just bashing feminism on /r/MensRights is what I'd call toxic

You think your precious feminism is above criticism.

As THE major movement for gender equality, us talking about it and it's impact on men here is inevitable. If you want to know why we generally don't agree with feminism, you can read the sidebar - as one of the top comments in this comment chain recommended.

If you need to put the "Feminism" flair on your post, I think you're doing /r/MensRights wrong.

I guess it's a good thing we don't need your approval to post what we feel is relevant, then.

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The problem is that it crowds out actual men's rights-related discussion on a subreddit ostensibly dedicated to discussing men's rights.

I didn't realize the requirement for Selective Services for men and not for women, thus creating an inherent difference in which women have more rights than men in the US by default, was not a men's rights issue.

Furthermore feminism as a movement has commonly been against attempts at improving conditions for men, I would argue that it is a Mens Rights issue to discuss this kind of behaviour.

I don't think you're educating anyone if you bash feminism on /r/MensRights[1] ; the audience here is already largely distrustful of self-identified feminists.

And I think I am. Because I recognize that not everyone that visits this subreddit is a supporter of the MRM.

Also, I wouldn't call stating facts about feminism "bashing" feminism.

[–]bpj18051 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]skabbo1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It is a men's rights issue. So talk about that

Sorry mate but you can't tell me what I can and can't talk about in regards to mens rights issues.

the fact that men don't have an unconditional right to vote, rather than constantly dragging feminism into the discussion where it doesn't need to be.

Considering feminism claims to be for equality of the sexes when in this particular regard they very clearly display an immense bias for one over the other I think to say that it is unrelated is wrong.

By dragging feminism into it you're confounding the debate.

I'm doing no such thing.

Where you could have had a rights-based discussion that's harder to disagree with ("Every adult should have the right to vote!") you drag a polarizing issue with lots of emotive baggage into a debate that's now a lot harder to win than if you had kept the framing of just a rights issue.

I didn't realize that my discussion on the hypocrisy of feminism would be so world changing if only I hadn't mentioned feminism in regards to selective services. CURSES! /s

[–]Demonspawn 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]bpj1805-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You still haven't made a case that discounts the fact that reality is zero-sum.

What an impoverished world view, but okay, I'll play.

You can promote fathers' rights by winning in court. Bashing feminists doesn't win court cases. Winning court cases changes laws. This doesn't take anything away from (dictionary) feminism.
You can support charities that address largely male problems (for example, homelessness). You weren't supporting feminists anyway, so you're not taking anything away from them. Bashing feminists doesn't keep a homeless guy from going hungry that night.
You can tell your friends that male victims of domestic abuse exist, and in large numbers, when the way they talk about the topic reveals that they see it as a thing men do to women. Bashing feminists doesn't change friends' views, and pointing out that men can be victims too doesn't come at the cost of denying that women do.

In short, empathy is not a limited resource. It can be created and destroyed. By bitching constantly about feminism, posters in this sub destroy empathy.

[–]Demonspawn1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can promote fathers' rights by winning in court[2] . Bashing feminists doesn't win court cases. Winning court cases changes laws. This doesn't take anything away from (dictionary) feminism.

Dictionary feminism, which does not and has not ever existed?

Yes, this is zero sum as it takes advantages away from women.

You can support charities that address largely male problems (for example, homelessness[3] ). You weren't supporting feminists anyway, so you're not taking anything away from them.

Still zero sum. There's only so much money to go around.

You can tell your friends that male victims of domestic abuse exist, and in large numbers, when the way they talk about the topic reveals that they see it as a thing men do to women.

You are correct that telling people about it is not zero-sum. But when it comes to funding those shelters, guess what?

In short, empathy is not a limited resource.

Empathy is meaningless. Empathy doesn't enforce laws. Empathy doesn't fund shelters.

[–]Vice57724 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]skabbo3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminist sayings don't convince us they hate men, feminist actions do, however.

I dunno, Andrea Dworkin made her position very, very clear:

Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free.

Source: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/andreadwor154469.html#K3RHhPmQChUChEXs.99

Any man will follow any feminine looking thing down any dark alley; I've always wanted to see a man beaten to a shit bloody pulp with a high-heeled shoe stuffed up his mouth, sort of the pig with the apple; it would be good to put him on a serving plate but you'd need good silver.

Source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin

This womans literature is very prominent in feminist circles. I doubt very many feminist agree with her statements but its hard not to feel somewhat at odds with feminism when someone such at this is such a leading voice in the movement.

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[–]garglemesh42 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit. Women already have more rights than men in the US, Canada, UK, most of Europe, and probably some places I don't know about. They have equality of opportunity. Here in the US, they get the right to vote without having to sign up for selective service. NOW (the National Organization of Women) is fighting against 50/50 shared custody as the default for children of divorced parents. Most men don't bother trying to get custody if the mother really wants it, because they know there's no way in hell they're going to win without a protracted legal battle unless they can prove the mother is a violent abuser, a druggie, or an alcoholic. ... and protracted legal battles cost lots of money. Feminists perpetuate the "women victims, men are abusers" meme that erases male abuse victims and ignores female abusers. Feminist-run shelters for domestic abuse victims generally won't let men in, and they try to shut down men-only DV victim shelters.

There are some feminists that really believe in equality, but the ones that have money, run charities, and have the ears of our politicians are trying to hurt men to help women. If you want an example, look at the Title 9 college rape tribunal kangaroo "courts". Talk to the feminists that ask "Why can't we expel a man based only on an accusation?"

Men's Rights is about equality. Big Feminism, the only ones our politicians hear from, are not. They're about helping women, even when women already have it better than everybody else. They're the ones that think that when women commit crimes, they shouldn't go to jail for as long as men, in fact, we should get rid of jails for women altogether. They're not about equality. The feminists that believe feminism is actually about equality are dangerously misinformed, but they're useful idiots for the radfems and large feminist organizations.

Again, Men's Rights is about equality. When you look at the actions of feminists, while they may claim to be for equality, they're actively fighting against equal rights for men. They're not just standing in the way of equality, they're trying to make things more unequal. Who the hell in their right mind would support them? If you want equality, feminism and its poisonous ideas like the patriarchy hypothesis (it isn't really a theory) and its simplistic view of the world have to go. We're better than them. We may not have public sympathy on our side, but we have something potentially more powerful: Facts. Evidence. Proof of society's bias against men, proof that women have more rights than men.

Now, don't get me wrong. There may be some areas where women are disadvantaged compared to men. I've never really seen evidence of their existence here in the US, but I'm willing to concede that they might exist, and if those areas do exist, I support fixing it so that women have the same opportunities that men do - but once we have equality of opportunity I'm against forcing equality of outcome - that's called "tilting the playing field", or, more honestly, "cheating".

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Gender equality:

Gender equality, also known as sex equality, gender egalitarianism, sexual equality or equality of the genders, is the view that men and women should receive equal treatment, and should not be discriminated against based on gender. This is the objective of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which seeks to create equality in law and in social situations, such as in democratic activities and securing equal pay for equal work. The related topic of rights is treated in two separate articles, Men's rights and Women's rights.

Image ⁱ - One of generic symbols for gender equality

^Interesting: ^Ministry ^of ^Gender ^Equality ^and ^Family ^| ^European ^Parliament ^Committee ^on ^Women's ^Rights ^and ^Gender ^Equality ^| ^Minister ^for ^Gender ^Equality ^(Denmark) ^| ^European ^Institute ^for ^Gender ^Equality

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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[–]Feminism_Is_Evil12 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's like you're saying most black activists don't support equality between whites and blacks.

Why should we assume that this is equivalent? Because you say so? Look at the recent popular actions of feminism if you want to see the sickness within the movement. We make a point out of documenting them here, regularly.

Even if you hate the MRM and everything it stands for, you can take away something from watching the kind of feminist behavior that we talk about here. Criticism leads to personal growth.

From their perspective, they're simply fighting the established power (it's fine if you don't believe the established power is male dominated, but they do). Surely you can see that?

That's a cop out. Look at any movement from the perspective of one of its members and you will find that they feel their actions are justified. In fact, I just gave you a justification for the MRM, a movement that the majority of people disagree with.

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And on that note, I'm done here. I've not been here for a long time, though I wouldn't consider it short. I've obviously been in denial but I thought this was a place to shed light on the injustices done to men, and strive to correct them at the expense of nobody, because that's how the world fucking progresses. Not by sitting here crying about shitty individuals and encouraging slander. We have a long way to go before this world is a sanctuary for men and women alike. The only way it's going to get better for us, for them, for you, is through mutual respect, empathy, and support. This arbitrary hatred you get off on is riddled with hypocrisy and is nothing but toxic to its own "cause". YOU are what stands in the way of equality.

I understand I'm being a hypocrite myself after mentioning awareness of the crazies within every group. I don't want to be a part of any movement where even a minute number of individuals believe its fundamental purpose is hatred.

Good riddance.

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MRAs heap praise on the occasional egalitarian feminist that gets notoriety (Christina Hoff Sommers comes to mind), and are critical of feminist policies and ideas that are harmful to men.

It's pretty reasonable when you are criticizing aspects of an ideology, rather than hating a gender.

Most of the bad press that MRAs receive is a product of poor public opinion on the idea that men aren't completely privileged and women aren't oppressed, and the subsequent media effort to smear the MRM as misogynistic, violent, pedophiles, etc because that gets clicks.

If you're going to limit yourself to movements which have a pristine reputation, you're going to miss out on any group that goes against popular narratives or the media or is even remotely controversial.

Look what happened with gamergate.

You're not at all suspicious of the fact that anything going against the top-selling claims of widespread misogyny and oppression or pointing out media bias, double standards, and hypocrisy gets labeled at misogynist by the media?

[+]gramsespektrum 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah that makes sense. I only joined this sub a couple of months ago because I think there's a problem with female privilege in some places (and male privilege in others of course) and I support equal rights.

However, this sub is a lot more misogynic than I was hoping for. Hopefully the majority still support equal rights.

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It's about giving women the same rights as men.

No. It's not.

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The problem with Feminism is they believe that females are below males and that they need to be raised to be on the same level that males are, but in doing so, they're actually raised higher than males because in reality, both Genders have their downsides and upsides, but it seems feminists only notice the faults in being a female.

I mean the entire movement focuses on women, it's named Feminism for gods sake. You'd think for a movement that supposedly wants equality between genders, would fight and look into all discrimination against the genders, not just female problems. Where's the Equality in that? That's like a campaign called "AntiRacism" that only focuses on racism towards black people, and not Asians, white people and Mexicans. Sure, racism against black people exists, but so does racism against all the other races too, and failure to see that is just ignorant, and you're gonna be hated by everyone else. So no wonder why nobody likes feminists.

Idc if I get downvoted for this tbh.

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It's about giving women the same rights as men.

Sorry, but women already practically have this.

When I was a welder for a fairly large company, guess how many female applicants we had for the shop monthly? ZERO. And this wasn't just for welding, this was for assembly, painting, and touch-ups. Yes, I got paid more than the [female] secretaries did. Our hiring manager told me he would give any female applicant that applied the same chance to get the job as us.

When I worked in retail, guess what the women cashiers to sales floor workers ratio was? And when a woman sales floor worker couldn't lift a heavy box, guess who got called over to lift it?

When I worked in food, guess where I, the empowered man was? I was in the back working 10x harder than I should have had to while the women up front were busy checking their cell phones during down time.

I have the upmost respect for women, but it makes me livid when people imply that they don't have the same rights as men. In a perfect world, everyone regardless of gender would be able to do the same exact task. But guess what? We don't live in a perfect world. As a man, I understand that I might have to work just a little bit harder because I can physically do more. This isn't me being mysogynistic, these are just factual statements.

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Men, as a group, and feminists, as a group, do not share the same amount of sin on their shoulders.

I would disagree in the case of a group that you willingly belong to. There is a responsibility for the group,because you support the group itself. So when the group acts, it acts with your help unless you do something to actively oppose it.

To go with the Nazism example you used below.Hitler could only do what he did because he had the support of millions backing him,without all of his followers he would have just been some second rate painter.His followers do hold responsibility for what Nazism did because they supported Nazism,even if they didn't personally kill every Jew.They gave their support to the regime that did.

I would also point out, that feminists are perfectly ok with being blamed for everything when it's something good. They will proudly declare that all of feminism was responsible for women voting, or give all feminism credit for the things they like. So, it is only fair to hold them equally accountable for the bad things feminism does. Of course that's when they hypocritically pull out the NAFALT.

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It's more the reaction of becoming instantly defensive of the in group rather than acknowledging that members of that group behave atrociously and denouncing them for that behaviour. I'm sure you will note the very public efforts the MRM has shown to weed out those who claim solidarity but act contrary to the goal. An example is the public dunounciation of the attacker of the feminist protester. No one ever did learn that persons identity, but the MRM pulled together and created a tangible reward for any info leading to their arrest. Now, some people may claim that there never was an attacker, and that may very well be true, but until there is evidence that shows that to be the case, we assume the attack to be real and react accordingly.

Contrast that to the typical NAFALT reaction whenever real evidence of feminist hate comes to light. All you see is handwaving and a declaration that most feminists are good people, but they as a group still just sit back and ride the waves created by the hatemongers...

[–]MarkRippetoesGlutes 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely complex but I think this is an important distinction to make.

If you look at /u/bluescape's comment about choosing to be part of a group vs being born into it, I think that further adds to this point too.

If you're a muslim and someone says that muslims, motivated by islam, attacked them, then you saying "I'm sorry that happened to you" already suggests that you disagree with that outcome as well as respecting the experience of that person. When you say, "nah urh, not true!!" it turns the conversation into a denial of the persons experience. Now if the person is wrong in there account then that's a different matter altogether but unfortunately there are bad people in every group so it's not unlikely what the person in OP's pic experienced.

But by establishing their actions as wrong first, you equally establish that you, in this example you are a feminist, also think that those actions are wrong and hence an apology makes sense i.e. "I'm sorry that you experienced that", not "I'm personally sorry for those events even though I wasn't a part of them".

We're talking "sorry", like "I'm sorry for your loss", not "I'm sorry because I was responsible".

EDIT: I'm a little confused as to why this is now marked as a controversial comment so if anyone wants to chime in I'd be happy for the opinion.

[–]geekygirl23 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]CoffeeQuaffer 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShitArchonXPR 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. They should not have to apologize.

What would be a good idea for them to do, however, is at least admit that those people who said she deserved to be raped were terrible people and what they did was wrong. If they want to get her to support feminism, can't they at least say "that's terrible! Those people are bad, don't internalize what they tell you! They are just calling themselves that to feel good about activism without actually doing anything, come hang out with us REAL feminists!" Instead of saying "not all feminists" with the subtext "how DARE you insult feminism just because feminists treated you like shit as a female sexual abuse survivor," they could at least say "not all feminists" with the subtext "those evil fucks! What they did was terrible! Those aren't real feminists, those are egotistical pricks! How dare they claim they were empowering women!"

They don't. Because, unlike childhood abuse victims, SJWs have no awareness of and sensitivity to people's emotional states, so saying things that actually are compelling to people never occurs to them. Big Red's actions on camera are how you can tell that radfems don't become radfems because they were abuse victims or grew up being molested and beaten by their dad or other males (whereas Jocelyn Zichterman actually was). She does not have self-awareness or sensitivity to how she comes off to other people.

They also have no guilt. It's like when John Stossel would catch con artists on live camera. They had no shame that they were caught red-handed lying and ripping people off, they were angry and offended that someone would criticize them. After being caught, they'd keep it up and be at it again. At least the child molesters on To Catch A Predator show some fucking remorse on occasion; the con artists are people you want to punch in the face. Rebecca Watson and Anita Sarkeesian have been known to con people for money. I think they have the same personality as those assholes John Stossel confronted.

Another reason they don't is that they feel like they are being insulted when she talks about the people who shat on her. In other words, they perceive the bigots as members of their group, when they should percieve the bigots as assholes who have nothing to do with them, who are giving them a bad name, who donned the label "feminist" to feel good. It's like the Dragnet episode where a con man bilked people out of their money wearing a police uniform. Detective Joe Friday didn't shame the witnesses for saying what happened, he told them it's a con man and took steps to stop him. He did not have the mindset of "they're insulting my tribe," he had the mindset of "that's not a real cop, that's a criminal who is wearing a police uniform."

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When Patricia Arquette spoke at the Oscars about equal pay between men and women in the US, a load of feminists attacked what she said by saying she had completely disregarded fundamental aspects of feminism and intersectionality. She had mentioned nothing about women of colour, or trans-women etc. and this made me so mad. A well-known actress makes a statement about equal pay in the country she is located in, and a large group of feminists condemn her for not mentioning every single aspect of worldwide feminism? I think it's disgusting how women who claim to be feminists try and add hierarchy to the movement. They are "better" feminists because they include all women and whenever anybody doesn't acknowledge this, then it is a negative commentary on feminism? NO!!! The sentiment she held was genuine - she was talking about a specific sub-section of feminism and didn't claim to be speaking on behalf of every woman ever. She was speaking from a position she knew something about - pay laws in her own country. SH wasn't talking about Ugandan FGM policies so it wouldn't have made sense to comment upon it.

[–]a4187021 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AkaviriDragon 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you. I think that the ideology that feminism represents is damaged beyond all hope of repair. Analogous

Groups are made up by individuals but when a group sistematically does wrong it MUST apologize, shun those who have done the damage, and distinguish themselves from those who did it, or it will lose credibility. When we see feminists constantly harassing/doxxing/threatening women who dont agree with them, silencing men's right conferences, lying about gender pay, wanting shorter sentances for women, etc, and they do so in large numbers, they CANNOT be excused with a "we're not all like that". Yes, NAFALT, but the majority is! And if not the majority then we can both agree its enough to fucking matter!

And in this, the mystical wonder-feminists who should be shunning these man-hating cunts at the same rate that they spew out hatred have stayed nearly dead quiet.

[–]CoffeeQuaffer -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AkaviriDragon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I suppose to an extent apologizing could apply to supporting the growth of a movement that then performs wrongdoings, not unlike creating a monster, but to be honest I'm not of that opinion after all. Apologizing only applies if you commited a mistake or were responsible for a mistake. If someone else in your movement does a mistake its their wrongdoing, you only need to Denounce&Distinguish, which would be a good step for good feminists to take.

But for the rest I said, I stand my ground.

To give an example, If men's rights started hoisting a bash-a-bitch day unironically I would denounce it. I wouldn't apologize for it as it was not my fault per se even if i'm part of the movement. If the men's rights started advocating for this 50/50 or more, I'm pretty sure i'd denounce it and distinguish myself from the movement some way, probably using a different name like how christina sommers uses "equity feminism" to distinguish herself. Otherwise the wrongdoings are going to keep happening with the group's name on them.

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While I agree with your statement, I think you're glossing over underlying point being made which is: "We're not all like that" is typically used an invoke a No-True-Scotsman argument to excuse any behavior or position pushed by the largest feminist (or really any single-sided "equal rights" group) organizations.

If someone wants to argue against the mainstream position of a political movement, if someone wants to argue that a political movement actually doesn't represent what an individual says it does (in this case arguing that feminism isn't about equal rights, but instead is single-mindedly focused on advancing the position of women and women alone), using examples from the biggest voices and organizations representing that movement should not be met with the response "We're not all like that".

It's common for people (feminists and MRAs included) to say that they support equal rights. Meanwhile they only support organizations that favor one party. They then excuse their support for those organizations by saying those organizations' single-sided support of one party is just an "aberration" and that "not all of us are so one-sided".

Literally, you are correct. And if one is defending a race or gender from wide sweeping discriminatory remarks, I would defend its use. But in the context of this image, it's specifically in reference to individuals who attempt to excuse themselves from taking responsibility for the wide-ranging discrimination of the party they identify with.

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When even mainstream reddit (well known for being fairly anti-feminist) thinks you're being too harsh on feminism, maybe it's time to re-think things?

Maybe the reason it doesn't feel "safe" is because it's actually becoming hatred? Look at this post. It has absolutely nothing to do with what should be the agenda for a men's rights group.

Do you think getting branded as a hate movement helps getting MRA into universities and general gender discussions? If you want to bring something to those academic discussions you need something besides "feminism sucks!".

I'm sorry but it's not feminism doing this to the movement. It's the movement doing it to itself by allowing criticism become extremism without trying the least bit to remove internal hateful elements and by refusing internal or external criticism.

[–]AkaviriDragon 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Slyndrr 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This comment and the similar comments were upvoted when this post hit /r/all, that's how I found it. Now that it's again out of mainstream view, the downvotes are trickling in.

Calling feminism a "hate movement" is just absurd. Yes there are individuals who are hateful, scornful assholes and still call themselves feminists. They are far from mainstream. Take a look at the feminist subreddits and compare the headlines with this one. Try to sort out what is hateful and what is not. Take a look in some other heavily feminist subs, such as trollx. Is the discourse there hateful? What views are being downvoted? Why is the hatred and disdain and high pitched voices so much more accepted here than there?

Even pure hate subreddits based on racism, nazism or violence will sometimes have some not-too-offensive material and constructive dicscourse. That doesn't stop them for being central places for hatred. That this subreddit has two (!) articles actually discussing on a more sane level does not stop it from being mainly concerned with feminism or blaming women in general.

This subreddit right here is the biggest gathering of MRA I have found. If you have a bigger site or subreddit that better reflects the mainstream of the movement, and redeems it then please do show it to me.

[+]HappyGerbil88 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

And discussing those specific incidents would be relevant to this sub, as would other anti-feminist discussions about things like equal custody or one-sided approaches to DV. But OPs post has absolutely nothing to do with men's rights and is just feminist bashing for the sake of feminist bashing, and that's not what this sub is for. Feminism should only be discussed as it directly relates to men's issues, because this sub is about men's issues not just empty bashing of feminists just because.

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Almost all posts clearly point a finger at one source of evil.

edit: It's a link, not just an image (RES thinks its just an image for me)-> Well, if every time you try to deal with an issue, and you find both the source of it and whats stopping you from fixing it, are one and the same.

It makes it hard to point at other things if other things aren't causing problems.

We don't have a problem with feminists who read the dictionary once or heard it second hand and just agreed with the name as defining their position/feelings (even though its a majority position in society, even if the name didn't exist).

The moment you get into the feminist academics/culture/ideology/organizations is when the brainwashing starts. It's the kind of place you see the phrase Social Justice Warrior flung at.

Its a place where people say one thing and do the opposite.

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The entire MRA movement is eager to circlejerk when something like this happens. Im no feminist, but i find it amusing how they all jump when a woman says shes against feminism. Its like they dont realize that when they value an opinion against feminism more if they're a woman, they are effectively saying their opinion matters less for being men.

[–]iBelieveButton 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]verdantmiles 11 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

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[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

OP can make whatever she wants. I just think it is strange so many people are celebrating what seems like a stupid statement. Almost any topic I can imagine discussing online (mac vs pc, atheism vs belief) is going to include some butthurt agro people telling other people to kill themselves and the like. That's just the unfortunate cost of anonymous interactions with strangers. Really, nothing in the image has any validity at all for me (just all personal circumstances) other than when she talks about male self hate. As the father of a young boy, I do think in the US school system certain more stereotypically male behaviors are unduly frowned upon in a problematic way. I am not a developmental expert, but little boys seem to like to run around, be physical, and play fight. This has gotten tons of kids I know into trouble, even calling for things like therapy from the teachers, when it seems like pretty basic behavior we just don't tolerate.

If instead of the language of victimization she uses throughout, she focused on that aspect of her experience and discussed what in particular she was facing (what was being taught that caused the boys to feel self hate), I would understand this having some value, but since it is just the same kind of nonsense, decontextualized victim speak people usually attack various feminists for engaging in. As is, I just don't get the upvotes.

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Feminism in 2015 is a complete joke. It's literally just turned into a war on men and any woman who disagrees with there beliefs. Have a woman stay at home to take care of her children and her home, feminists call her an oppressed woman who's being treated horribly by her misogynistic piece of shit husband. But tell her to work at a daycare where she can watch other people's kids, it makes her a strong independent female who is there definition of why women need feminists. It seems like women who are extreme feminists are scared that if they don't take a stand and try to replace men all together, they will somehow become useless. But as the only sex who can give birth to children, no matter what a woman's job is, or how much she gets paid, women will always be useful to men and to the world. So feminists that are hardcore need to just sit back, and relax a little bit.

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I have so many friends who their argument has always been "well we have been opressed for centuries, it's fine for us to get treated better now since girls have been 2nd class for so long"

it makes me angry :/ I'm a guy and I believe that the past is behind us. I treat girls just like I treat guys, and for some reason that isn't good enough for some girls

I REALLY get upset though when people say "you don't know what it is like, you're a white male".... wtf? I'm also autistic, and I don't go around all day talking about how I deserve special treatment and benefits because I hear people making fun of autistic people all the time

idk.... the last few years I've felt like I'm sexist, I try my best to think of equality and such, and not to be biased by gender or race, but with how some people talk to me I can't help feeling like I'm oppressing women somehow XD

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I'm trying to understand the timeline here

9 April 2013 Dan Perrins http://www.avoiceformen.com/education/little-red-frothing-fornication-mouth/

23 April 2013 Danielle Paradis (coincidence initials?) and Anne Theriault http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/feminist-current/2013/04/mens-rights-activists-advocate-human-rights-rape-and-death-t

This mentions:

This woman, who has been re-christened “Little Red Frothing Fornication Mouth” (so charming!) by A Voice for Men

So assuming that it was Dan Perrins on April 9 who christened her LRFFM, if this was a "re" christening then the name "Big Red" must've been the original nickname, introduced at an earlier date.

Only thing is, I am not sure who first came up with the idea of calling her BR or when/where it was done. Anyone know?

I think LRFFM is better because 'big red' is already in use for all sorts of things, like for example, WWE Superstar Erick Rowen: http://www.wwe.com/videos/erick-rowan-vs-luke-harper-raw-january-5-2015-26987254

Erick is bigger so he deserves the moniker! Plus http://www.pwinsider.com/article/89930/lots-of-wwe-news-and-notes.html?p=1 indicates that WWE registered the trademark.

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"NAFALT", Yeah no shit! Of course not all are like that, but its enough to fucking matter! But the difference is that if someone comes into men's rights and does something like "Female Tears" or "kill all females" they'd get denounced, men's rights would say this is not their stance, and if half or more of the men's rights movement turned into that then the good men's rights advocates would separate and make their own movement. Denounce&Distinguish. Yet when a feminist does it almost nobody in the feminist movement says anything! And they don't destinguish themselves from the crazy people in their movement either! They all lie about wage gap and shit like that. Only christina hoff summer separates by calling herself equity feminist. Why is that? I'm starting to think NAFALT is just the public excuse they use to avoid looking bad!

[–]Rezda 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]HappyGerbil88 11 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I care about this movement and am very active on this sub. This post has nothing to do with /r/mensrights. If you don't want outsiders commenting on a shitpost like this, then we shouldn't upvote shitposts to the front of /r/all. If we actually upvoted relevant content to /r/all then the tone in this thread would likely be different, but when their only exposure to /r/mensrights is this sad pointless whining about feminism without any relation to men's issues, what do you expect?

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[–]HappyGerbil882 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because it made /r/all, and a lot of people were confused because a top-voted post on /r/mensrights doesn't actually have anything to do with /r/mensrights. I see a lot of shitposts get upvoted on here, and even worse I see very good and valid discussions without a lot of upvotes, but this is among the worst. If we don't want outsiders from /r/all coming in here and criticizing us, then maybe we shouldn't upvote complete garbage like this to the front page of /r/all. Maybe if posts like these got downvoted, and we had the posts about police brutality or custody or rape or DV getting to the front of /r/all instead, the outsiders would be supportive of our movement instead of criticizing us for pointless whining about feminism. There is a place for anti-feminism within the MRM, but this post is just pathetic.

[–]Holyhitman173 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]SancZero 11 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Saying "No" to feminism ironically makes them so angry they'll verbally attack you.

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http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[+]geniusou 11 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Stop posting this. There's a difference between being a Scotsman (unchangeable quality of a man who is Scottish) and subscribing to an ideology. That logical fallacy isn't relevant when there is a definition of feminism out there that advocates for equal rights for women. People who are try to bring men down are neither feminists or (in my opinion) in the majority.

[–]autowikibot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

Feminist movements have campaigned and continue to campaign for women's rights, including the right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to education, to enter contracts, to have equal rights within marriage, and to have maternity leave. Feminists have also worked to promote bodily autonomy and integrity, and to protect women and girls from rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence.

Feminist campaigns are generally considered to be the main force behind major historical societal changes, particularly in the West, where they are near-universally credited with having achieved women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property. Although feminist advocacy is and has been mainly focused on women's rights, some feminists, including bell hooks, argue for the inclusion of men's liberation within its aims because men are also harmed by traditional gender roles.

Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender. Some forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.

Image ⁱ - International Women's Day rally in Dhaka, Bangladesh on 8 March 2005, organized by the National Women Workers Trade Union Centre

^Interesting: ^Amazon ^feminism ^| ^Postcolonial ^feminism ^| ^Lipstick ^feminism ^| ^Index ^of ^feminism ^articles

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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[–]WaynesCotting 29 points30 points31 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Where?

The only thing I see in your entire user history (your account is four days old) is this:

https://np.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/304jht/can_your_pussypass_get_denied_if_youre_a_14_year/cpppa65?context=3

And all I saw is you discounting a person's opinion about circumcision being a problem because, among other things, "it isn't talked about outside of the manosphere". Despite the fact that he was telling you, having experienced it, that he had the opinion that it was a big issue. Seemed pretty dismissive and like you had a preconceived notion you were upset that you had to question.

After you wrote a long post with lots of points he'd probably want to respond to, you concluded by saying that you wouldn't even listen to what he had to say from that point on. Why? Because he discussed a topic you didn't like:

This is such a typical, thoughtless /r/mensrights argument. Bringing up the draft of all things. Jesus Christ. Respond if you want, I'm not going to read it. You've managed to piss me off, though. I hope you're able to enjoy whatever satisfaction it brings you.

[–]PixyFreakingStix-19 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]WaynesCotting10 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Then I think people shouldn't get the impression that this subreddit normalizes calling dissenters "fat, ugly, and brainwashed".

I also don't doubt you were downvoted just for having an unpopular opinion too, though. I went through a few threads and looked at the most controversial comments. I found things that shouldn't have been downovted, like this:

[-16]

Does this seriously bother you guys? I'm honestly curious not trying to be rude.

https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3081g1/wowjust_wow/cpq6ibz

That person wasn't even being combative or assertive and was still heavily downvoted, but the responses are all very reasonable, and that seems to comprise the vast majority of the discussions here. This subreddit doesn't seem to be the den of hatred and abuse that Reddit likes to claim.

[–]PixyFreakingStix-14 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Guy_who_makes_GIFs14 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PixyFreakingStix-11 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Guy_who_makes_GIFs16 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, I'm not part of /r/mensrights. I saw this post on /r/all. You really shouldn't make assumptions, since it's quite hard to tell through a medium like text if you're actually right. You don't even know if I support the movement; I'm just calling you out, on a personal level, for making claims repeatedly and having no proof. Because that irritates me, not because you're anti MR. I really couldn't care less if you're a feminist, MRA, or Nazi.

Well that last one would be pretty not cool, actually, but I digress. Don't make assumptions.

Edit: It is interesting to see, though, your attempts at insulting /r/mensrights users... You were complaining about them attacking you, with no proof, and now you're very clearly saying that anybody on the sub doesn't possess the mental faculties for critical thinking and being honest. Maybe you shouldn't be so hypocritical.

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I'm very angry. We're a sub about equality and the picture that gets frontpage is bashing feminism? I'm livid. This is going to cause a shitstorm and give us bad rep. Altough some of us might be to blame, this is because the majority of people who saw it liked it, not just men's rights, and altough I am curious as to the amount of upvotes of men's rights vs most people, I just know this is going to give us some bad rep. We're already seeing this with the huge amounts of assholes invading our sub, trying to make us look bad, downvoting us, making emotional arguments and then being incapable of handling facts or showing proof of their claims against us. We can do better than this and not upvote this kind of stuff. We have to be better at policing ourselves and upvoting the stuff that really matters. Draft, male genital mutilation and all that. Not this. There's places for bashing feminism, and altough its one of our greatest adversaries, this perhaps should not be one of them. At least not frontpage. Too much bad rep, too little profissionalism.

[–]NegativeGPA 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WaynesCotting 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The actual word for this is egalitarianism. There's a subreddit for it /r/egalitarianism

Their stated purpose is to not value one group over the either (feminism vs. mensrights).

Sidebar:

Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal") is a belief of thought that favors equality of some sort. Its general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as race, gender, religion, ethnicity, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and cultural heritage.

Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status. Even /r/MensRights and /r/Feminism.

All thoughts and dogmas are welcome here. We ask you remain respectful and simply treat others how you wish to be treated. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean you need to attack the author while attacking the argument.

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[–]DavidByron25 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Some of the best work feminists have done has been attacking civil rights. All the rape shield laws they created, the domestic violence laws, these new "yes means yes" laws they are pushing now. Even the sexual harassment industry.

It's like your entire idea of what feminism is, is based on something something women's right to vote 100 years ago. Even that wasn't very equality minded. They demanded the rights of citizenship but not the duties. Not that I am against women voting (at least I think it's a waste of time for everyone equally) but it was a bad day when that sort of thing came to be identified with such a thoroughly sexist movement. Nobody mentions the same movement's support of lynching black men falsely accused of rape back then but of the two issues, what are feminists still doing today?

These "yes means yes" laws are literally a modern day lynching (meaning an extra-legal punishment based on prejudice) and they will tend to target minority men just the same. These days it's men who often have no right to vote. Are the feminists talking about that?

[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]velrick 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Solutions are always difficult, but i'll give it a try.

Firstly, I think the "re-brand" makes sense in this case. (since it isn't a twitter hash tag)

Perhaps it could be called something like humanism(already used for something else) or equalism.

Distill feminism down to its core concept. Women and men should have the same opportunities, rights and be treated with the same level of respect. That's it. By that definition every reasonable person would be considered a feminist.

Traditionally feminists have been female, because they as a group were disadvantaged. That type of classic feminism and activism has largely narrowed the gap, but seems to have mostly run it's course.

For this new 'equalism' group it would be important to include men, ideally 50%men. This serves a number of purposes. It brings in a broader number of perspectives; It allows the group to handle men's issues as well(admittedly fewer); It stops outsiders from stereotyping the group as easily; It makes things less adversarial(working together to forward gender equality, rather than one group versus another).

It's important, I think, to separate body image and societal sexuality from this new feminism. While those are both important issues they distract from the core issue and invite unhelpful, aggressive discourse.

This group should focus on civil discourse. Politely, but firmly point out that things are inappropriate, rather than attacking people. I feel like "that is offensive!" is thrown around too often.

That's mostly it. It's a pretty rough concept, but it seems reasonable.

[–]Blutarg 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Siiimo 11 years ago* [recovered] (39 children) | Copy Link

This is a completely reductionist post that is in no way helpful. Feminism isn't filled with people threatening things like this any more than MR is filled with it.

Picking out the stupid people on either side and holding them up as representative of the movement helps nothing.

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Are you trying to tell me that those who are sending the threats are not the result of those leaders? These leaders have made it abundantly clear to plenty of those who follow, and that is that the enemy is not a person. Attacking the enemy (not refuting or debating) is justified to them. They are either a disgusting male, or a woman with internalised misogyny who is just trying to get some attention from those disgusting males.

It becomes clear that the leaders absolutely are the problem.

I want you to read this Tumblr post about a guy who was doxxed and ended up talking to his doxxer.

Do I have a grudge against that kid? None at all. I feel sorry for all others out there that are like what she was. Those that truly have justified their actions to that point. And then like this post says, people don't call them out, no, they just say that it isn't all feminists that are like that, or that they aren't a True Feminist™.

When you ignore your own movements flaws and let them fester to that level, then it absolutely is the groups responsibility to take care of it.

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[–]madarapt1 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, the whole is equal to the sum of the parts.

How many simple discussions have been completely shut down by the radfems on college campuses? Too many, and you damn well know it's true. How many men's groups shut down women only talks? These are not the 'stupid ones' these are the ones who get the most publicity for their radical acts, and as a result, have become a sort of face for feminism.

I'd even go so far as to say many mainstream feminists are completely against the idea of rational discussion of differing viewpoints, oftentimes calling into question the other sides sanity, their worth, or their intelligence. Anything that is said bounces off. Completely. What you are left with, then, is a movement that promotes victims perpetuation for the sake of its own growth, and encouragement to complete cooperation or public shaming and harassment.

Again, the whole is equal to the sum of the parts.

[–]ronep 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]RypeDub420 11 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

How do I make a comment on what website where people will say these things to me?

Help me, I want to test something.

[–]Bortasz[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]RypeDub420 11 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

I want to be in her situation. She posted a very particular set of words in a very particular pattern to cause people to become triggered on some internet web site.

She was then attacked in various ways, including real life (internet is fake).

I want to cause this situation, with me being the target.

Why? I want to conduct a test on something.

I would also like to know the name of the website that is best used for "triggering".

[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]RypeDub420 11 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

So, posting: "men are so much better than woman because we are smarter and physically stronger" to Tumblr would cause the appropriate reaction I am seeking?

[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]RypeDub420 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I like the suicide one lol downloading tumblr now.

Uhmm... How do I post??

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[–]Lauzon_4 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"sorry but women are not as privileged as men."

Absolutely laughable. Read these stats and get back to me. (note that 99.9% of men are not CEO's, politicians or royalty).

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2xmm3p/i_cant_believe_people_think_we_dont_need_a_mens/

It's worth stressing the final link in that piece. Unlike women, men do not have in-group bias; in fact, like women, men favour other women over other men. This helps to explain why the feminist movement, unlike every dissident movement in history, has had no problem getting males in power to do as they demand. Ironically, the history of the feminist movement actually DISPROVES feminist theory!

If feminists dropped their patriarchy bullshit, acknowledged the enormous power of women, and worked WITH men rather than against, there is no telling what they could accomplish.

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The problem with feminism in the US today is that it's gotten absorbed by a political party and one wing of politics, so that it's used for malicious politicking. They trot it out in election years to get women riled up, usually by creating some kind of scapegoat that combines stereotypes of men with conservative symbols. They attack male institutions with trumped up accusations of systematic abuse, and so on. They turn their ideas on their head to attack conservative females and that evolves into giving themselves permission to attack women who aren't like them.

Once a rights movement is captured by a political party it becomes another tool or organ of that party and from there it degenerates into a social bullying tool between types of people.

Feminism has been totally absorbed by progressive politics to the point where it doesn't even make sense to women anymore.

You could say the same of Catholic political thought right now, as some might see it as being too allied with conservative party goal-making, when priests and bishops start grandstanding on refusing communion to politicians they don't like in election years.

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I think what they're trying to say is they don't have to deal with the large majority of side-effects that come with sexual assault. Things like PTSD, depression, and in worst case, suicide. I couldn't find an article that outlined everyone, not just women, but here are some statistics on the mental health after rape:

https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

According to wikipedia, rape also falls under sexual assault.

Sexual assault is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is coerced or physically forced to engage against their will, or any non-consensual sexual touching of a person. Sexual assault is a form of sexual violence, and it includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.

I can't, for the life of me, find any statistics of people who die as a result homicide after rape, but I imagine the number can't be less than 2%. A lot of women in third-world countries are punished by death just because they were raped before marriage.

Also, 1 out of every 15 people raped will contract a STD. I would say, going through a rape and not ending in either an STD, pregnancy, or some form of depression...that is as hopeful as surviving gets in that situation.

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Comments

NotAllFeminists

Title	Just Feminism.
Author	Bortasz
Upvotes	4524
Comments	770
Date	March 26, 2015 6:12 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/30cgxn/just_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-feminism.984847 https://theredarchive.com/post/984847