Men's problem with the current dating scene

Local-Coast3182 · 2021-07-05T20:36:11+00:00

I've seen a lot of posts lately about men's dating problems and most were written by women, not being sexist or anything but most women just...

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Ok here’s what I did or rather what happened to me. You can take from it what you will.

I went through the usual (what I assume) blue pill to PUA to redpill to blackpill route. I invested a lot into chasing women. I even got over my approach anxiety for the most part which sort of free’d me up to pursue whatever woman I wanted. I was also in a few social groups. After years of this I looked back and realized that aside from a few instances where I got lucky it was all largely a waste of time.

The time I spent talking to, pursuing, chasing, thinking about women was all a waste of time. Even if you only spent/spend a few minutes a day it accumulates in the form of mental energy wasted from wondering whether she’s into you, dealing with flakes, ghosts etc. Small decisions like taking the long route home because you know it crosses by the local college which is filled with gorgeous women. Maybe going to certain events because there will be women there.

After all this you have nothing to show for it except maybe a few sub par lays and maybe one good fwb that eventually switched up on you when you least expected it. You realize that that energy could have been better invested improving your own life. Don’t you want to travel the world? Live in a nice apartment/home? Drive a comfortable car? (It doesn’t have to be a Bentley but there is a noticeable difference between cars in certain price ranges), don’t you want to be able to dress nicely, eat nice food, treat yourself to a restaurant dinner m, afford whatever hobbies or luxuries your hearts content. There is also the satisfaction of either building your own business, working on your own project or climbing the corporate ladder. Taking time to learn valuable skills or things that interest you. Fulfilment can also be found there.

As for intimacy and sexual urges they never go away but here’s what I realized. You can go treat to quality massages now and again. It’s not a replacement for cuddling or anything but it’s something. I stopped watching porn and I try to avoid looking at scantily clad women. Whilst watching this stuff and masturbating will relieve you of your urges in the moment it causes sexual frustration in the long term and makes you even thirstier. It fixates your mind even more on sex. Plus in the even that you do end up having sex it’ll ruin the experience because you’ll be so numb mentally and physically. It’s better to not know what you’re missing. Would you still be so frustrated if you didn’t know that you could have sex? (Think about it). I’m against paying for sex. I believe that something in you dies when you start to do that.

I also noticed that the women who did give me a chance after I chased after them tended to have a higher likelihood of wasting my time or sending mixed signals. Hence why I emphasize high interest. The last woman who sent me mixed signals and would initiate conversation. Now whenever she initiates I reply with one word answers and it’s been a week and I haven’t replied to her last message. I don’t care. I’m not going to let someone waste my time. I asked her to meet. She only agreed once and has been playing games since. I don’t have time for such. Have a bit of pride.

Enjoy your social life. Go out with friends (if you enjoy partying), join a sports club or make your own 5-aside team for whatever sport (basketball or soccer). Have fun buying matching kits, practicing and playing matches. Workout frequently. Just enjoy your life and be prepared to be single. It’s the one thing I notice about women. They’re willing to be alone and will compensate in other areas of their life (including the ones who get little male attention). Men tend to give up on life altogether if the reward of female companionship is not guaranteed.

Let’s say you become more attractive and a woman comes along you don’t have to commit to her forever. You can just enjoy her for time being or form your own little harem if possible. I will forever remember how I was treated when I was at my lowest. Not simply the rejection (that’s ok) but the dishonesty, games and mental manipulation that came with it. I won’t go out of my way to get revenge on women but I won’t feel the need to stay loyal or to trust them. The beneficial reason for staying with one woman is that you don’t need to worry about STIs as much and you can go raw which is infinitely better than a condom (be careful of her trapping you with a baby though). It also helps if you’re childfree to some degree. Anyways I think I’ve said too much now.

My point is you already aren’t getting women despite the time invested. You might as well forgo them altogether and work on improving your own life.

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I have a successful consultancy business which I started from the scratch and which give me six digits income. I lived and worked in four countries.

I am fit, I have run marathon and I do bench more than body weight (I am in late 30). In my 20ies I was semi-professional martial artist.

However, because I am OK-ish looking and have average height, I was ghosted, skipped for dated, etc. all the time. I paid for dinners.

I was able to pull hot girlfriend only when I started cold-approaching like crazy, ignored rejections and learned game.

My girlfriend is pushing the agenda we are equal. She only started her career two years ago (because she could not decide what to study); when I was her age I had my own business and a couple of properties. Now I outearn her more than ten times.

Why do women value themselves so much?

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I am baffled why she does see us as equals.

It’s because there are plenty of guys with career, money and business that it’s not as special as you think. For example, I have an income of 250k a year (big tech), am 5’11”, early 30s but am average looking as well. I don’t run marathons but comfortably run 10ks and bench my own body weight.

The reality is that guys like us are still in excess supply. We are the “safe” guys that women settle with once they’ve had their fun in their twenties. Do you really want to be that guy she settles for?

The real demand from hot young women is for guys with generational/family wealth, very high status jobs like surgeons or athletes with a Harvard/Ivy league pedigree, 6ft+ and ripped/muscular.

For those men, life and dating is on easy mode even with hot women, as they are a scarcity in the marketplace.

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First of all in the Bay Area, total compensation (salary + stocks + bonus) runs very high. 250k a year is solidly average in total income there. 40% of all households in Silicon Valley make 200k+ a year

Next, I don’t want to settle with a gold-digger. So I don’t advertise my income or job either. When I mentioned my job on dating apps, I got a ton of dates it’s true. But always with women pushing for a relationship ASAP.

I met my current GF on okcupid without me mentioning my job/income. She wanted me for my (average) looks, the sex was/is mind blowing and I am perfectly content and happy. If I were to end up single again, there’s no way I’d avertise income/wealth online.

Yes you get dates but only with older women who are settling and dating you for your CV.

Realizing dating is just a marketplace is entirely liberating and freeing.

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Not knowing you personally, I'm making quite a few assumptions. That being said, I think your frustrations with dating are likely a bit misguided. You're driven, intelligent, and successful. Those are amazing qualities, but, those qualities make you a better, more well-rounded person, they aren't the ones that will get you success in the dating world.

Looks AND charm. If you have those two things, you don't need much else. If you don't have them both, it doesn't matter what else you have. And if you have one, you need less of the other, and vice versa, but you definitely need them both.

To be successful in dating (not just hooking up) as a man, you need to have a combination of looks AND charm. If you've got model looks but no personality, you'll hook up and get laid, but you'll have trouble with long lasting relationships. If you've got tons of charm but are ugly, you're more likely to get friendzoned a bunch. Money will also work, but you're not dating a girl who likes you for your money, you're just renting.

Obviously, we've never met, but if I had to guess what was keeping you from being successful dating, my guess would be that you're just not presenting yourself to women in a way that makes them interested in you.

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I'm not charming but I have a nice personality

I'm sure you do, but so does most everyone else. The vast majority of people have nice, decent personalities. Making guy friends is incredibly easy, as men aren't potentially interested in dating you, and you're not interested in dating them. So the stakes are much lower. Simply not being an overt asshole is enough to be friends with another guy. Whereas women are screening you to potentially be part of their most private, intimate, and vulnerable states. Having a "nice personality" just isn't enough to get you in that door.

Women are a whole different ball game. Just having a nice personality will get you to the friendzone at best. To get them interested in you romantically, you need to have personality qualities that spark attraction. To make matters even more complicated, those qualities don't just vary from woman to woman, they can, and often do, vary within the same woman at different times.

The good news is that you're obviously intelligent. So you're smart enough to know where your strengths lie and you can improve upon them. Myself for example, I'm not particularly good looking. Not ugly, but I'd say average at best. And to make matters worse, I'm below average in height. So, right off the bat, I knew I had to find other ways to attract women because I knew my looks weren't going to do it. Obviously, you can only improve your looks so much, but there's almost no limit to how much you can improve your ability to be charming. So over the years I've learned how to be funny, to be a good listener, to be a good conversationalist, to tell good stories, to have a unique perspective, to pick up on social cues, to compliment in a natural way, etc. All of which are some of the skills that people who are considered charming possess. What's also in your favor is that not everyone is charming in the same way, so there's no need to try and conform to any single standard. You can find your own way, and play up to the things you're best at. And when you find the ways that work for you, you're more likely to find women that are compatible to your specific preferences, instead of some cookie-cutter, unrealistic standards.

The main point is to get out of the mindset that achievements equal attractiveness. Everyone should strive to be successful, but know that personal successes are just that, personal. They're not status indicators that automatically improve your chances in the world of dating. To have success in that, you need to find ways to improve and accentuate the qualities you have that make you attractive to women.

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What I have a problem with is the gaslighting and the endless, idiotic claims by women that it isn't true.

Absolutely this. I have no problem with it, but the gaslighting and complete lack of understanding is so fucking annoying.

Also pretty much every statisitics point out towards the fact women have it easier in dating, while there is literally none that points in the opposite direction and they still try to argue.

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Men show an overwhelmingly greater willingness to try and see things from the female perspective and to take their interests into account. As for which issues I personally have empathy for, just off the top of my head:

Abandonment anxiety. I completely see why women fear abandonment, going 'all in' on a man by marrying him and starting a family consumes a woman's value in a way that can't really be undone the way the man can. If he runs off once the process is underway she'll have a hugely harder time trying again. Also, the prospect of having sacrificed her career for the family and now being way behind in terms of marketable skills, and having to reenter the job market is dreadful. I completely see why women worry about that possibility and I agree with safeguards in place to prevent this outcome. This is the situation that alimony is for.
Being taken less seriously by default. I'm not sure I view this is a valid complaint as it's really just the back edge of the double edged sword. People care more about women, but they take men more seriously. Everyone knows women are getting kid gloves treatment across the board, everyone knows men are playing the game of life on hard and women on easy. That said, I can see how it would be annoying that people assume a higher degree of competence in a man than a woman.
Rape. I'm willing to believe that the prospect of rape carries a kind of primordial significance for women that is independent of it's likeliness to happen. I see something similar in my male stance on paternity fraud, even if it almost never happened, I'm not sure that would significantly reduce my fear of it. There is something irrational about it, just like if I'm walking alone in the woods at night, the fact that I know I live in a country where there are no wolves, or bears, or tigers, doesn't mean I wont still be on edge. The instincts are just wired in too deep. As such, I'm willing to allow and understand a degree of female hysteria over rape, assuming that the same thing is happening.

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From my observation? Women in the anger stage about male violence against women is part of it.

There is a case in the UK about a woman who was raped and murdered by an off duty cop. Authorities think he may have used his cop ID, told her she was out after covid curfew and told her he’d give her a ride home.

Women react deeply to things like that and some decide men and their boners are more trouble than they’re worth.

Not saying this is logical or the right way to go about things. It’s emotional reasoning for sure. But things like that happen often enough that no woman can walk down a street thinking “this will never happen to me”.

I’ve always been able to still love men because the men in my family were very loving and kind. Maybe some women don’t t have that.

Of course I don’t know the reasons for all women.

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[–]80_20SCIENCE / non-incel incel advocate / NO PILL 60 points61 points62 points 5 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

I was a regular on r/okcupid during it's golden years. From 2011-2016 ish.

During this time I wrote 1500 personalize messages to women.

My formula was this, introduction, reason why I wrote usually a common interest. I tried to relate a funny joke to it or give some anecdote about my life. I'd invite them to check out my profile. In which I had a fully vetted profile with clear pictures. I ended with an open ended questions about them.

For my efforts I received about 1 date every two years.

I just felt like women were too good for me. No matter how hard I tried I just failed over and over again to garner any attention.

The dates I went on were ok, I had a few girlfriends for a little while.

But I basically had no choice in the matter. I had to date those women who wanted to date me regardless of my feelings about them.

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As a man, we don’t even know if we are interested, we know if we are infatuated physically and we know if we flat out dislike the person but nothing in between. That’s why men talk about the clarity we have after we cum, sometimes our first thought is “what the fuck am I doing here?”

You don’t even begin to know each other for a few months at least, the older you get the better you become at knowing people because you realize what does and doesn’t matter. For example, when you are young you think music matters

As a man I wish our culture promoted the idea that not all relationships are meant to work out, and you need failed relationships in order to mature and become the best version of yourself. I feel like many women have this narrative that all ex’s are enemies and mistakes that you should hate, rather than seeing their past relationships as a way to become a better partner/human being

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In reality I'm just not sure if this is avoidable.

This is becoming a huge problem in the United States

Denmark is begging its young people to date and reproduce

Sweden is considering a immigration ban on Taiwanese women because swedish men aren't marrying swedish women they're marrying Taiwanese women.

S*** is crazy.

The issue mainly boils down to we live in a time where non-traditional women are seeking traditional men. If you don't want to be traditional that's fine these are not traditional times but you really can't demand that your side of the football field be 20 yd shorter while the other teams is full length.

Edit 2: A good portion of the dating age man now are old enough to see what our fathers and other men went through in the family court and child support system and we don't want any part of it.

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At the end of the day I dont really know. I knwo I put in the effort. The time to grow and question who it is I wanted to be. Iread books on dating, and approached women. Im a 5'3 asian guy , but in the end I figured while I would date less if I put in trime and effort it woudl eventually work out.

But I worked out to the point where my body just broke down. too many miles I guess. The speed dating, the online dating the approaching...

I was far from perfect but I figured I should at least have been able to get a date.

I knwo what you think,. If you were in myu situation you would have been able to accomplish the thing IO couldnt. And maybe you wouldnt. But I dont know anyone else who worked as hard as me as long as me. I worked out more then 5 days a week for more than 15 years. I was the guy who has been described as the person who kniew every one.

But of course you wil believe you worked harder then me or were smarter then me. And maybe you were but I am comfortable with the time and effort I put in to bettering myself and pushing myself outside of my com,fort zone.

God I wish all it took was 10 years and I could actualy get a date withsomeone I was attracted to.

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[–]Indis96Red and Purple Pilled (Reality) 21 points22 points23 points 5 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

I agree, its no surprise women always had it easy in dating, men till today are always the ones that have to approach and set dates and fear rejection and basically carry the load 9/10 times.

And yeah I saw some rejection from girls that were pretty shitty on their part, and thankfully they are in the minority, if only they genuilely knew how easy they got and I wish the game was switched for even a day to see how grateful they should be, privelages are invisible to those who are born with it.

Its even amplified with online dating which I refuse to use, becuase I dont need it and I've been having success in life without it. So more power to me .

Also a huge tip I got that basically changed how I view things, was to only approach women that give signals that they are interested in you instead of cold approaching every single one. If she shows she wants you to approach her, then it makes it a LOT more easy.

Of course im blessed myself being tall/handsome compared to the average guy, so easier said then done.

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Nothing is a "truer strenght" than strenght itself. Submiting the strenght of the body to the ways of reasson and spirituality is not an act of power, but humbleness and service.

Morality is a cultural self-imposed set of rules created by men to restrict the very use of that strenght in order to bring social peace.

This is the first implicit social contract in human history, a pact between men where they agree to restrain the use of force and keep it on the civil levels if other men don't threaten the lives of their families or their property and means to provide for their families.

The problem with a selfish, individualistic and hypocritical society is that push their individuals to abandon morality as a way of life, hence breaking the delicated balance between the members of society.

When competition gets too hard and ferocious, individuals feel more tempted to "cheat". It takes just a few men breaking the rules for society to become a complete mess in record time, and when rules start to get blurry, the law of the strongest takes place.

That's why sociologists say "violence always ESCALATES".

And, for the record, violence ALWAYS starts way before the physical scalation takes place. It's starts with passive-agressiveness, it's starts with invisibilization, with corruption, with hypocrisy, selfishness and lies. That's violence too.

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So why are women having more sex than men?

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When people say men don’t put in effort, they mean in the dating scene and the relationship. Maybe even maintaining your best physical appearance. Not how hard you study or how disciplined you are.

Honestly when I date idgaf about how accomplished someone is (I am young, 22, so that maybe plays a part). I am also not ambitious. I’ve dated and hooked up with ordinary looking men who weren’t ordinary in a social sense. The most successful daters imo are the ones who can make people feel good and are sociable. This is what I meant by decent men. Not their money or accomplishments but their personalities and ability to connect with people.

Edit: also not to be mean, but when someone thinks they’re prime dating material by citing their accomplishments, it’s a turn off. From my own experiences and talking to women, they all want to be in a relationship with a dependable man. This doesn’t mean financially dependable (if this weren’t the case, we’d see a vast majority of cohabitating couples where the man is paying 100% of everything. It’s mostly 50/50 from what I’ve seen irl)

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I hate optimism too.

Yeah, there's a thing called "pathological optimism".

she will still get much more matches on dating apps than average guys

If it helps you, at around 27ish, priorities shift significantly from seeking only fucking (for many if not most of those who are seeking sex only, which is not as many as the interwebs might make you believe) to something more meaningful and permanent, and with that change come all kinds of adjustments in preferences/requirements for the partner.

So those "matches" are wet, they don't spark and produce no warmth, if you know what I mean. No camp fire, no grilled food, no enjoyment. Happens all the time, just take a look around. If it didn't happen, then where are all the older people online coming "seeking arrangements" from? Think about it, if someone is looking for, means they haven't found it (yet), no?

So, maybe, in case you're still looking for it by then (since you've mentioned SVM), you'll find it easier to get a "penis garage" then. Chances have it your hormones (Presuming you're in your 20s? Am I off by a lot?) will cease pumping like crazy by then and your suffering of non-sexual frustrations will diminish significantly with it. And you'll love life for what it is, not dwell on your frustrations over why it isn't the way you think it should be.

People change with time like that, never forget that. And focus on things, ideas, activities and people (Number one culprit being you.) that not only can, but actually do improve your life. And try to be pro-active every now and then. SMV exists, but it's a minuscule, trivial speck of dust, compared to other things in life, trust me,... and trust yourself, too.

Good luck, "son". You got this and I'm proud of you, but don't tell anyone.

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You're greatly exaggerating the effort that women put.

Women put all that effort in their appearance for other women, not for men. An average woman just has to not be fat, spend 5 minutes on makeup everyday, a few minutes on their hair and be able to have their pick of average men for LTRs or above average men for casual sex.

An average man to have 90th percentile social skills and confidence, which takes years to develop, to get the same results as the average woman, and they're only able to get the same results by putting in massive marginal efforts for each new woman even after they develop themselves.

bubbly persona, and approachability

These aren't serious points. Women don't do anything for "approachability". Bubbly persona is easy to do because women live easy lives and are naturally bubbly as a result. Being bubbly is easy compared to being confident and masculine.

Women don't put in any effort compared to men. It's a joke.

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"women messaged most of the unattractive men."- No, it did not. Those Women did not find those guys attractive, so what does it matter?

"as an OkCupid study found that women find 80 percent of men unattractive."

Here is another one that says if you aren't a hot guy, don't bother.https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a

EDIT - The part you aren't getting is Men shooting out their league doesn't change anything. If they shoot in their league.. they get not date either. Nothing changes. What do you not understand here?

EDIT - " That's pretty harsh, ladies." Yeah, this implies Average Women won't even bother with 80% of the Men. What about this 'just fine' in your mind. Average Women are on Cloud Nine & Won't date Average guys. Men will typically take what they can get.

Edit - "he bottom 80% of men are fighting over the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are fighting over the top 20% of men."

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My personal experience is I worked harder than pretty much every single person I know since I was 13 years old, I used to wake up at 4:45 AM to drive to high school for early practices. I was the only person in my school to make it into an Ivy League, there I would stay up until the early morning doing work for advanced courses, and I graduated near the top of my class with a top percentile income job. I am pretty much still considered very average by women because I look average. I also go to the gym, do sports, play musical instruments, have cool, fun hobbies. I know countless other guys who are the same.
When I try dating I am routinely ghosted and flaked on by women who I find attractive.
I sound salty but I just can't believe it when people say men don't put in effort.

Also I am trying for average to slightly above average looking women.

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Ever wondered why this fact exists? Why is the bar higher for men? Why are the expectations higher and the pressure higher?

Do we expect any less from the best than the best results? Doubt it.

As a woman being in STEP I kept hearing in any and all competitions “well you have an unnaturally smart brain! It’s so unusual for a woman” and this comes from people in a loving way not in any way to mean offense or anything. Yet it’s the worst thing any woman can hear.

Like what the hell. Sure. Women had no role models. Moscow wasn’t built in a day. It’s not nature.

Germain was doing math in secret most often

Many women in all fields in science and humanities had to publish under pseudonyms for them to be taken seriously— anywhere on the same niche as men was just a dream.

Marie curie — one of the most talanted and hard working scientists who ended up getting two Nobel prizes (first PERSON to ever do so — in two different fields — physics and chemistry) had to face indignations again and again. Was it not for her husband and a couple other scientists stepping in, she would have never been recognized for her achievements. Do you even imagine how depressing it was for her?!

Can you fathom how important self confidence in most creative fields like math or physics is to succeed?!

Doubt it.

[–]throwaway1643 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Ever wondered why this fact exists? Why is the bar higher for men? Why are the expectations higher and the pressure higher?

In the context of dating, sex and relationships it’s because of evolutionary biology and natural selection.

In STEM, I agree with you totally. There are large systemic gender and racial barriers that prevent women and minorities from thriving in traditionally white-male dominated fields.

In dating however, there are fundamental biologically driven differences in the outward behaviors and roles between men and women. On average, since women have a much higher investment cost and risk of pregnancy they are much pickier in choosing a partner and are generally averse to casual sex. Whereas men are much more competitive (with each other) to prove their fitness and also more likely to aggressively pursue sex.

At the end of the day, we are just space faring apes with clothes. Like every other mammal, we aren’t immune to evolutionary forces. The traits we find attractive in each gender has been selected by evolution over hundreds of millions of years. There’s a reason why women (on average across all cultures) women tend to prefer tall, dominant, rich, successful and high status men.

In the history of our species, a much smaller fraction of men successfully passed down their genes compared to women. In a nutshell, that’s the origin of the higher standards/competition when it comes to dating and sex in men.

There’s a great book on this by the renowned biologist E.O Wilson called “On Human Nature@ that I strongly recommend.

[–]KtownManiac1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]blueXcatPurple Pill Woman -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It really depends on how you calculate it.

I mean, if I have shitty standard, it's pretty easy.

Why?

Because men are expected to do the first step. (which makes shyness more handicapping than anything else)

But we end up with so much scrap

Let's say I go to a bar and want to get laid. I'll have a lot of opportunities. Will I find a non drunk one though? My chances are the same as a man for that

But I won't have to go to them, they'll probably come for me.

Like on dating app, I would have tons of messages

-50% are illiterate and I need a SMS dictionary to read them -75% will be 10 years older -50% will be 20 years older -25% look like they do drugs -25% ask me in the first message if I want to be fucked in the ass -50% have shitty pictures were I cant see well. (dont add them up, it's a vienne diagram)

And then on top of that I have my own personal tastes

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I will abstain from mentioning physical and sexual attraction because that is subjective and you have your right to your opinion.

Excluding those to factors, you cannot convince me at all that women find it harder to find eligible/functional. Granted you might not be attracted to them, but that doesn’t instantly make them toxic or problematic. You could easily find a man who was of sound mind and body who would be a good partner to you - but you’re not attracted to them.

You don’t have to be and you don’t have to settle, but that is not the same as saying you have bad suitors. You have high standards.

The average man doesn’t have the quantity of attention the average woman has to have standards that high and still expect to meet people on anywhere near the same frequency.

Your position is only valid if you harbour some “all men are pigs” mentality to justify why the majority of men that would be good to you or for you… some how aren’t.

It’s like having a dream career and then insisting every other job opening you see violates occupational ethics and hazards when it’s just about you not being interested. The job could be perfectly fine and just not what YOU want.

[–]blueXcat1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men have way too low standards. Like I said, you can fuck a drunk women just to get sex

(you as in men)

Women can't do that. We will have to deal with a half functional dick

And per experience, it's hard to find a on drunk men at bar closing.

As for dating apps, I already made a post about that, men fire themselves in the foot.

Men take such bad pictures, we don't even know what they look like. They hit on women half or even third their age (yes, it's not a joke. 65 yo dude sending me a list of bdsm stuff to check for him to see if I'd be a good slave, when u was 22)

Also a lot of men message badly. Like I said there's the base : please be readable, at least. And then they are either generic, if not disgusting.

We know you sent that to 20 other women at least

I think way too many men want to reach a big number to have more changes, but by being non personal, they just mess up their approach with all of them.

For example, asking me a question that is already explained on my profil

And a bit like in a bar, if I say no and you react like shit, all my friends will be aware

While feminism have made women think that even at 300 lbs they deserve that perfect looking man, men also approach very badly in general, and react badly to rejection. I get that it becomes tiring, but keep calm and there won't be a reputation

Oh and I forgot the no win dilemma. If I answer "no, sorry" a dude will be angry "just dont answer if you're not interested" And if I don't answer "answer, at least"

[–]Xan_The_G2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again - you’ve stressed this farcical notion that your only options are a bunch of objective dysfunctional men, as well as the notion men general open themselves up to dysfunctional women.

It’s not true. It’s just virtue signalling.

If you compare finding a partner to finding a car to drive to work, women will not buy a car unless it’s a Tesla and are confident they have the money to grab one eventually.

Men do not have that luxury and will shop around for Nissan. Men will find a Nissan that works: no issue, in great health and mileage, does everything you would need a car to do. It’s not a Tesla, but it’s not gonna let you down, and your life is better with said cat in it.

You would glance at that same Nissan, and insist it has an alcohol problem and Erectile dysfunction.

It doesn’t.

You just want a Tesla and you don’t want to seem shallow so you’re virtue signalling.

[–]blueXcat0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And that's completely false.

Women will have all these car ads being thrown at them, but they will get the better option And many will be thrown out because it's a scam

That's how women get from a lot of options to small bunch of suitors

Men will go to every seller in town. They will tell the seller they don't care if it's a small car or SUV.

That's how men send messages. They have this copy to paste message that is obvious

Women want to feel chosen, so it doesn't help to feel its copy paste

Men go from high numbers, wishing for a few positive answer

But you guys mess up the approach at first.

You shouldn't want to be with all these women. You should be sending or hitting on a small number who you are really interested in.

That would elevate your possibilities

And women should obviously also message men, else They can't complain they have no suitable suitors

Both sex mess up differently how to navigate dating. There's no better

Were just tired of you guys thinking it's positive to be annoyed by a lot of weirdos just because we have a bigger pool at first

And mostly the age. I'm serious, 75% were at least 10 years older

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Don't really think it's a new thing about a average men having to work harder , good looking people have always .... Let's repeat this again ..... always have been around giving average men competition. Reading through these comments what I'm getting is that a woman "settled" with the average man, and once she was able to get out of the relationship she left because to be honest she probably never was attracted to you , or loved you to begin with , a woman will not leave a man that she is sexually attracted too ,or in love with ,even if he loses his job , A traditional woman thinks, plots, and plains before leaving which takes time , if she's able to leave you because you get laid off so easily she never really loved you to begin with, and her actions should have been red flagged prior to you being laid off. In traditional society most men who get laid off from a job can find employment elsewhere, or they pick up another trade .

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I believe that it's up to men to improve enough to attract partners, or to learn to use the strengths that they already have.

No, it is a two way street. Ask men to improve too much and you end up with a large chunk giving up as it isn’t worth the effort.

Coercing women into partnerships with men who they are not attracted to is not something that a free society should be doing.

And yet we try to do it all the time with men in the modern era, just look at how marriage forces men to be in relationships they do not want to be in anymore or child support forcing him to be fathers of children he might not want to take care of.

Places like Denmark are even running ad campaigns to try and coerce men to get with women they do not want to be with. South Korea are even forcing men to have relationships in college to help combat there own herbivore man problem. Sweden is trying to limit the amount of Thai women in the country for men are marrying them instead due to the high marriage success rate.

And this goes beyond relationships. We force/coerce people to do shit all the time for the sake of society as nobody is truly free and we require sacrifices to maintain society to keep our free society intact.

Tons of societies even have mandatory military service.

Our economy is based on coercing people to work shitty jobs as someone has to and we fuck over millions so others can have more.

What makes women’s lust so special to be an exception to the rule? Single mothers are devastating to society due to the damage they do there children. Coercing women to be with men who would be good fathers/providers would alleviate this issue and make society far safer, reverse our devolution (IQ is dropping), create unity, stability, eliminate mass shootings (the rise of mass shootings is the result of single mother households), lower crime and much more.

Personally, I do not care either way. We will both either be old or dead before this matters and this isn’t my responsibility. But society is going to have to force women to be with beta men eventually or we will just be replaced with a culture who will.

If only because women will just eventually stop having enough kids to keep society alive.

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That’s probably a good thing as these men likely don’t have the best genes, anyway.

You are assuming that women are goddesses who know who has the best genes and that men who drop out will always have inferior genes. Neither of which is true.

Society may progress a little slower if some men give up

No, it will not progress at all after we burn through previously build up momentum. We will stagnate and then decline with never ending unrest. The initial stages of it are already happening in America.

but I think that the harm of that is less than the harm of subjugating women by forcing them to marry or be sexual partners with men whom they are not attracted to.

I already made the response to this part really. But women’s lust just isn’t important compared to other things (like ensuring most children have fathers). Nobody is entitled to sexual pleasure with the partner of there choosing. It is more important for everyone to have a family to build unity and give eveyone a reason to be invested in society.

Men lost in traditional marriage to you know. Sex was for babies (missionary only) and he often didn’t find her attractive either. It was all about the children and getting people to be invested in the cultures future.

Let me ask you this, why is women’s lust so important to you? What is more important, ensuring that every family has stability and a father or her being able to have some short term pleasure with an attractive man?

That is really what it boils down to here.

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not about lust, it's about happiness. I'm against casual sex, myself, and think that people are happier in relationships. But women are not happier if forced to be in relationships that they don't want to be in.

I see, even if it makes men, society, children and even many women miserable or way worse off?

Women are more miserable then ever before according to the “paradox of female happiness study.” Although happiness studies are bullshit, just because someone has a choice or more choices doesn’t mean they are happier or more satisfied with the results.

And this really isn’t about happiness, this is about her pleasure. Happiness is a fleeting feeling that none of us can never truly get.

It's up to men to improve enough to be able to make the woman who they want to attract happy enough that she chooses to be with him rather than choose to be single instead.

No, she is not entitled to relationships or men improving for her. It isn’t his responsibility to meet her standard. She can try the buy and hold strategy, but it is her fault and responsibility if she ends up single and/or miserable as she isn’t owed a man being what she wants.

And this has very strong misandry elements in it. It hints that you believe men are inferior to women and so they must change to be worthy of her. When both genders are as shitty as the other.

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women are more miserable then ever before according to the “paradox of female happiness study.”

This is because many women are too overburdened with responsibilities. Studies also show that single women without families are the happiest women.

but it is her fault and responsibility if she ends up single and/or miserable as she isn’t owed a man being what she wants.

As I’ve said, most single women are happier.

It hints that you believe men are inferior to women and so they must change to be worthy of her. When both genders are as shitty as the other.

No, it’s just biology. Women have a limited number of eggs, pregnancy is risky (it definitely was before modern medicine), and women have limited time and resources to ensure that their children are cared for. When a man can improve enough to attract her, it demonstrates to her that he is of fit enough quality that her offspring will likely be genetically fit. It’s not about misandry. It’s just how nature works without patriarchic structures forcing women to have sex with men whom they see as genetically unfit.

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is because many women are too overburdened with responsibilities. Studies also show that single women without families are the happiest women.

No, it is because of having too many choices according to that study.

And happier being single today doesn’t mean happier then yesterday

As I’ve said, most single women are happier.

There is no possible way for data to show this. It is an absurd claim. The closest you can get is saying that women who prefer to be single are happier.

No, it’s just biology. Women have a limited number of eggs, pregnancy is risky (it definitely was before modern medicine)

That doesn’t matter anymore with modern technology. And if women cared about the number of eggs they had, they would all be rushing to have kids before they hit 20 years old.

and women have limited time and resources to ensure that their children are cared for

So do men. Everyone has limited time and resources in this world.

When a man can improve enough to attract her, it demonstrates to her that he is of fit enough quality that her offspring will likely be genetically fit.

No it doesn’t. Effort doesn’t change genetics. Tons of people people with shitty genetics end up successful in the modern world (reverse is true too).

All effort does is make him a better provider and meet her shallow standards. Men are shallow too ofc, but it doesn’t really matter when it comes to the success or failure of the offspring.

Like how a woman becoming fitter, getting plastic surgery and such doesn’t make her have better genetics or have better children.

fit. It’s not about misandry. It’s just how nature works without patriarchic structures forcing women to have sex with men whom they see as genetically unfit.

No, nature is not about appeasing women’s lust or standards. If we want to go with a natural system, women would be forced to mate with men they do not like all the time. With men killing and raping to prove that they are the strongest and fittest.

Civilization ended natural selection and all that bullshit and for a good reason since nature sucks.

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, nature is not about appeasing women’s lust or standards. If we want to go with a natural system, women would be forced to mate with men they do not like all the time. With men killing and raping to prove that they are the strongest and fittest.

Patriarchic structures usually codify the mistreatment of women. In more natural systems, women tend to be treated better except in wartime situations.

Women aren’t “privileged” in a hypothetical situation where they are socially shamed for trying to satisfy their lust with high value men (who should also be shamed). But men are privileged in a situation where they are basically all provided mates without having to do anything to earn them. A scenario where casual sex is both shamed and where men have to work to attract a mate is a compromise scenario where neither party is complete happy but neither party is being completely oppressed, either.

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Patriarchic structures usually codify the mistreatment of women. In more natural systems, women tend to be treated better except in wartime situations.

No, patriarchal systems were gynocentric. Men were held responsible for women and had to take care of them. It was a trade off.

Before that men could just abandon women whenever he wanted as there was nothing stopping him. Leaving most women dependent on there family and the tribe for help.

Were women mistreated? Yes, but to say that patriarchy offered nothing to women is dishonest.

Women aren’t “privileged” in a hypothetical situation where they are socially shamed for trying to satisfy their lust with high value men (who should also be shamed).

I do not understand what you are saying here. Men who indulged in lust were also shamed and punished in old school patriarchal societies. Often exiled or killed.

Yes rich elite men cheated this, but so did rich elite women.

But men are privileged in a situation where they are basically all provided mates without having to do anything to earn them.

What? Courtship was all about a man proving that he was worthy of her to the father and he was responsible for taking care of her and there children.

This was often a long process and required him to do a lot more then a man has to do now to get anything from her. It is why gentleman and chivalry was a thing to begin with.

The big difference is that men just had a simple path to get a girl, but it wasn’t easy.

Men just didn’t go to the supermarket to buy the girl they wanted for a dollar.

A scenario where casual sex is both shamed and where men have to work to attract a mate is a compromise scenario where neither party is complete happy but neither party is being completely oppressed, either.

Because it wasn’t about happiness and it should never be. Happiness is a fleeting feeling that will never last.

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, patriarchal systems were gynocentric. Men were held responsible for women and had to take care of them. It was a trade off.

No, they were instruments to control women. It still works this way in many traditional countries in the world today, so there’s no need to speculate what things were like historically.

Before that men could just abandon women whenever he wanted as there was nothing stopping him. Leaving most women dependent on there family and the tribe for help.

Most of the time the other men were other tribe members, so this was unlikely to happen. Just looking at groups with traditional tribal structures show that, most of the time, women had more power to choose a partner. However, this was not the case when it came to situations involving war and captivity, but I already mentioned that caveat. Patriarchic structures did not change this, although one could argue that they made war less frequent and captivity and sexual slavery less likely. This is little comfort to women who were basically sexual slaves in their own households who could be raped by their husbands at any time.

Men just didn’t go to the supermarket to buy the girl they wanted for a dollar.

Marriages were mostly arranged by desperate families who wanted to rid themselves of an extra mouth to feed and where the woman had no say on who she was to marry. It often resulted in families just selling their daughters to whomever could afford them. The chivalry stuff that you quaintly mention was the privilege of few in the upper classes, and even in those classes the women had little choice and were often unhappy.

Because it wasn’t about happiness and it should never be. Happiness is a fleeting feeling that will never last.

How gloomy. There are plenty of happy couples out there who, although they occasionally quarrel, are still very much in love with each other.

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, they were instruments to control women. It still works this way in many traditional countries in the world today, so there’s no need to speculate what things were like historically.

And men, you forgot that part.

This is little comfort to women who were basically sexual slaves in their own households who could be raped by their husbands at any time.

Are you serious? While that did happen it is no where as bad as you implied it to be. Men are not vicious monsters like that as a group.

Simps are what men use to be as it was the most effective method to get a girl.

Marriages were mostly arranged by desperate families who wanted to rid themselves of an extra mouth to feed and where the woman had no say on who she was to marry. It often resulted in families just selling their daughters to whomever could afford them.

And neither did the man have a say. Also arranged marriages are often happier then the alternative statistically to. As often we make the wrong choice.

The chivalry stuff that you quaintly mention was the privilege of few in the upper classes, and even in those classes the women had little choice and were often unhappy.

Yeah there is no way to prove that women were unhappier back then because of the family structure. Too many other variables involved.

How gloomy. There are plenty of happy couples out there who, although they occasionally quarrel, are still very much in love with each other.

And there were tons of happy couples back then. Happiness is not a permanent state, most of the time we are not happy and that is just a factZ

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It still happens in non-western countries all over the world today. I'm constantly reading news stories about it.

The thing about the news is that it hypes up drama and negativity. So while it does happen, the news is going to ignore the many cases where there is no issue period.

But you are right, some countries are bad. But I believe others are not. And most of the countries that are bad are only bad because they are filled with war.

Also, it's not just men exploiting women. Mothers-in-law take advantage of the system to exploit their daughters-in-law, as well. So I'm not singling out men for bad behavior, although men have traditionally held the political and religious power necessary to set up these social structures.

I do not believe any group of people are evil, but incentives make people do evil things. Humans are just animals doing what they can to achieve there instincts goals as easy and safe as possible. The only people that are a problem are those that long for control as you have to do evil things to get control. But even then, it is only because that is the only and easiest method do they do it.

Personally, I believe the model all countries should follow is the Netherlands model. Both sides are free and the goal is to get as many to the self-actualization stage as possible. Getting as many needs filled on Maslows pyramid of needs filled as possible.

Even to the point of having “right to intimacy laws.”

But, I think humans stupidity is infinite and so most cultures will never consider this model and will just revert to the traditional model or go for a model of socialism that will not work as it only fills certain needs for certain groups or leads to all the power going to the top.

[–]wtknight2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wtknight1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]luliloo0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Men's problem with the current dating scene
Author	Local-Coast3182
Upvotes	169
Comments	821
Date	July 5, 2021 8:36 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/oefs00/mens_problem_with_the_current_dating_scene/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/mens-problem-with-the-current-dating-scene.788878 https://theredarchive.com/post/788878

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