“Whoever invites pays” is just a way for women to get out of saying “men should pay” (first dates)

Useful-Indication225 · 2023-03-16T08:12:09+00:00

Good middle ground here is to go for something inexpensive first, then if you hit it off then you can go bigger on the second date.

If she’s put off by a low cost first date then maybe says more about her intentions and personality.

No-Seaworthiness959 · 2023-03-16T10:35:48+00:00

I mean this is so obvious we dont have to debate it.

mummydontknow · 2023-03-16T13:44:11+00:00

While I agree with the sentiment of the saying when it comes to friends, when it is about dating I agree with you.

It's a "neutral" rule that disproportionately affects a certain population, which makes it basically discriminatory without explicitly saying it is.

It's like making it illegal to be homeless, sure it's equally illegal for everyone to be homeless, but it disproportionately affects poor people, and they would get persecuted more for it.

2023-03-16T06:44:00+00:00

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TermAggravating8043 · 2023-03-16T07:37:37+00:00

I’m going to jump in here first and claim that this is an American thing of guys paying the bill.

I live in the uk where dates are considered to be 50/50, I don’t know anyone that would go out for dinner or ask someone out for dinner as a first date, first dates should always be drinks that way you can do a round at a time and if they get up and walk out after 1 round then you didn’t waste much and society would label her as rude.

I don’t understand why you guys can’t do something similar over there? I know we have a drinking culture here but why can’t it be with coffee and if she turns her nose up you know you’ve dodged a bullet. I do think you guys should be more 50/50 but I will say it would strike me as really cheap if you invite someone for a drink and didn’t buy the first round, I’ll admit that would put me off unless I was late then fair doos.

But yeah all for 50/50

lle-ell · 2023-03-16T08:45:16+00:00

I think this is a pretty American thing. That being said, I like splitting the bill for first dates because then I don't feel like I owe anything. If it seems to be going anywhere, I like to take turns in treating each other. Counting pennies isn't a sexy or romantic way to end a date, imo.

CompleteRetard69 · 2023-03-16T11:34:15+00:00

Jesus Christ. The reason men pay is because traditionally, women didn’t work and COULDN’T pay. Now they work, so that privilege gets tossed out the window. Women expect men to pay simply because they’re entitled.

Peacesquad · 2023-03-16T15:36:27+00:00

Women got dating on easy mode. Almost zero burden of performance

Fiveheadeat · 2023-03-16T17:37:12+00:00

Always do a coffee date. Never take a woman to a restaurant first. If she’s too good for a coffee date, goodbye. Leave without even thinking twice. You gotta make sure you’re not getting hustled by these chicks. After you’ve gotten to know each other for a few weeks, then you go to dinner.

Be smart fellas. There’s four billion women on earth. You can live without this one.

KirthWGersen · 2023-03-16T19:22:37+00:00

I guess this is one of those cultural differences.

Where I live, it is very unusual to tip a waiter, as they are paid a salary.

In the USA, it would be wrong not to tip, as waiters are paid through that system.

Where I live, it is very unusual for one person to pay when you go out, as women work, just like men do.

In the USA ... hang on women work there too ... I guess they simply want to have their cake and eat it ...

neetykeeno · 2023-03-16T07:13:28+00:00

What you guys really want from us is for us to accept the date and pay. But if paying becomes the norm, accepting the date will become even more rare. Because accepting the date is usually a very close judgement call on something that could turn out good or bad...and twenty bucks kept in our pocket instead of spent on a plate of limp spaghetti and a glass of wine is twenty bucks still in our pocket and that's always always good.

Women don't need to go on first dates with strangers if they have adequate social circles to give out indicators of interest in. Men's first choice of mating strategy is just an optional sideshow for most women. And that's why men will keep paying. A new pretty woman to date is felt by men to be a priority. Saying yes to a random who asks is seen by women as an option not a priority

SmallsUndercover · 2023-03-16T09:34:34+00:00

If a guy asks me out, then I typically expect him to pay. Because he usually says “let me take you out”. So I take it as the guy trying to pursue me and that’s his “move”. if I know there won’t be a second date, then I split the bill so I don’t feel bad about him paying. If I know there will be a second date, then I always cover the second date. if I ask a guy out, then I’ll pay for the date bc that was my move. But in almost every situation that I’ve tried to split the bill or cover the bill, the guy feels very uncomfortable with it. Almost feels like I’m emasculating them?

JasenBorne · 2023-03-16T09:32:15+00:00

Don't know how we're supposed to change your view when it's just up to personal experience. Me, i've gone out with plenty of women who asked me out and then payed the bill. My last girlfriend did it because she didn't want to feel like she owed me anything.

italian_whip · 2023-03-16T06:57:13+00:00

What’s your alternative? I think that’s a perfectly fair rule however I also think everyone should always offer to at least split the bill if someone else is paying

If a guy asks me on a date I assume he’s planning to pay for it. I always offer to at least split the bill and if I know that I never want to see them again I will insist that we split it as long as 1. I can afford it 2. They don’t give me too much push back about paying

obviousredflag · 2023-03-16T07:55:03+00:00

“Whoever invites pays”

You already made a point that nobody uses this rule. It's not a social norm. Who are you arguing against? "Many women on the internet"? It's not relevant what they say. Nobody is adopting those fringe ideas.

Diamond-Breath · 2023-03-16T09:27:29+00:00

What is it with American men not wanting to provide for a woman they intend to court? It's so unattractive. I'm glad I live in a Hispanic country, men here are so different and masculine.

Affectionate_Sky960 · 2023-03-16T08:49:54+00:00

Bro believe me dates are overrated asf and most times if it’s a western country all the women be doing is on their phones. I just carried two American chicks out on a date they were so lame. I don’t know if it was because went to the Domincan republic where everyone was just partying and having a good time but here the chicks be so stuck up and lame lmfao. It’s insane get your passport and don’t let people gaslight you.

Merouxsis · 2023-03-16T07:31:53+00:00

Personally, I see some positives in being expected to pay. When I used to date (I have a dedicated girlfriend now), I used it as a screening type thing.

When the check would come, it was always a massive green flag if the girl was like “No, let me at least pay my part.” If I like the girl and got the vibe of it actually going somewhere, I would pay. If I didn’t see it going anywhere, I would let her pay her half, and if she didn’t offer and I really didn’t get a good vibe from her, I would ask for it to be split.

revente · 2023-03-16T08:05:36+00:00

Unless it’s stated explicitly a date is not an invitation.

It’s a suggestion to do something together.

januaryphilosopher · 2023-03-16T09:39:54+00:00

This only counts if that woman also thinks men should invite. It's a pretty standard principle that when friends or family members go out to eat, if one person is paying for multiple meals it'll be the person who asked. (Especially true if one person picked the place because they picked the budget.) I'd suggest you shouldn't only think about first dates when the idea is often that you'll each ask each other out on dates over time so it balances out.

ratsareniceanimals · 2023-03-16T12:48:25+00:00

The person asking wants it more. They have the greater desire hence the greater burden.

gofigure62 · 2023-03-16T14:03:46+00:00

Tell the woman that she needs to pay on the date. Problem solved.

IDK why men simply don't tell women that they expect her to pay for the man or pay for her own food before going on the date. It would solve all of their problems immediately. I don't understand why this discussion never takes place before the date.

mackenzie013_02 · 2023-03-16T15:17:17+00:00

I say this, and I pay, and I also ask men out. If the guy asked me out first and he pays for the first date, I’ll initiate and cover the second date, and we tend to rotate.

However “whoever invites pays” is usually a social norm where I’m from and splitting was completely new to me after moving to North America. When I invite a friend to a place at a time/date; I always pay the bill (and we rotate). We even started doing this with a couple of my NA friends.

Magnito-was-right · 2023-03-16T17:20:00+00:00

I think men should pay for the main activity and women should pay for the snacks or something that is less expensive but still shows some level of reciprocity. This shows that the women is actually interested in the guy and not just bored and looking for free entertainment.

nexkell · 2023-03-16T07:58:14+00:00

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eyewave · 2023-03-16T10:54:44+00:00

brahh it's just a restaurant, it won't kill your wallet.

Straight_Plenty6244 · 2023-03-16T10:29:04+00:00

I’m from England and have never paid on a first date. Usually go for coffee and a walk so it’s not even expensive. Don’t ask me on a date if you don’t actually want to take me out. If a guy expected me to go 50/50 there would be no second date.

flosterjenkins · 2023-03-16T07:55:05+00:00

Because you're not dating your friend or your brother. There isn't that "we're constantly doing romantic stuff together, we trust each other, and venmoing an exact 50% is awkward" context.

Many women use men paying as sort of a shit test for the first date. But it's not crazy for a woman to expect if she thinks they'll become a couple. Couples are constantly alternating who pays, and whoever sets stuff up for a specific date typically pays.

But more women should split the bill if they don't plan on seeing the guy again. Unless the guy was a dick or something, it's only polite

CryptoThroway8205 · 2023-03-16T09:05:05+00:00

If you're an Asian guy, you'll probably only be able to date Asian girls. You're expected to pay for every date till marriage or breakup. I know a guy who paid his girlfriend, same age as him, similar career but earning less than him, a monthly allowance. It's not even uncommon. After marriage it's joint account which is pretty fair though very trusting. If one party were to funnel the money to another country and leave, divorce courts could never get it back but that's true of any joint account relationships.

The first date doesn't matter enough if you make enough. Guys can take a $50 hit every once in a while. And there's too much resistance for this to change until the next generation grows up.

turtlez1231 · 2023-03-16T09:41:30+00:00

Just be a man and pay the damn bill lmao

hari_hbp · 2023-03-16T07:12:52+00:00

Yes. However, there are women who ask out men too, so...for the majority - this is true.

WhiteMarriedtoBlack · 2023-03-16T14:37:21+00:00

For clarity my username is an inside joke with friends I’m not married nor am I currently in a relationship.

My rule has always been to split or if one person is low on cash or forgets their wallet then they pay next time they go out. Sometimes it’s whoever invites pays it’s just if that happens the next date the other person invites their partner and pays. It’s kinda situational for me. This is just because I want paying to reflect how the relationship works. I’m the equal and I will not be financially dependent on a man and I reflect that on dates. The first date is always a split unless the guy is really pushing to pay and I’ll just respond that I’ll pay next time.

If I get a raise and I want to go somewhere nice and I’m in a relationship in the moment I’ll ask if he wants to join me to eat and I’ll pay and it goes the other way around. Celebrations usually the other buys their partner who had made the accomplishment will pay.

Since I’m in Med school I don’t have much time to make much money or go out so usually dates are more activity based so that it’s more worthwhile and memorable and when I get into a relationship. I also don’t want there to seem like I owe him, especially not sex as I will not have sex until sex and will never have sex outside of marriage.

I haven’t really been in many relationships since I focus on my studies though. I usually tend to have to form a friendship and close bond before I even start dating because I have always looked for long term partners.

The biggest thing for “whoever invites pays” and I don’t see a need to match the next time if for going out to expensive places. I don’t expect to go on dates to expensive places and o would much prefer just hanging out and playing video games but also I don’t have the money to indulge in such luxuries. I don’t buy expensive gifts and I don’t like to be gifted expensive gifts either. I’ll buy my partner a Steam game that’s on a discount and I’m the past they’ve done the same.

I don’t see the reason to indulge in expensive things that aren’t for gaming or art but the expensive stuff is bought by me. I’ve always been more into gifting and getting things crafts for or from a partner.

I feel like it depends on the woman. There’s plenty of women that split paying for dates and I’ve had some friends that paid most to all of the dates.

Sekina7 · 2023-03-16T16:57:22+00:00

Men approach women with the intention of penetrating her, PERIOD. Most women can take themselves out and have lots of guys begging to pay for a data. So, here is a solution. If you don’t want to pay make it clear upfront you don’t want to pay. Also if applicable make it clear you just want sex. Really really simple.

If you decide not to state this upfront and ask to split no worries. She can split and you both go on your way.

When I’m asked on a date the males always make it clear THEY are asking and plan to take ME out and pay. Grown folks.

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RocinanteCoffee · 2023-03-16T11:19:42+00:00

If you invite without saying 'let's pay our own bill' then yes traditional etiquette would assume you are paying. But that etiquette is ancient. Most people discuss and agree ahead of time. It depends on the country, culture, and individuals of course, but in the US for example more than 60% of people regardless of gender believe dates (and in particular first dates) should have both parties offering to split the bill and/or pay for themselves.

Obviously with your brother you probably have years of knowing each other and precedent, with a stranger if you're meeting them for the first time on a date, you have to discuss it. I for example, always bring it up when we're deciding on a place and make it clear that I will be paying for myself.

It's very, very simple to make sure nobody expects you to pay. You establish it before actually showing up at the date, so everyone brings enough money (some people still like to just carry cash or have a reserved card that's just for non-essentials/fun money/date money).

It's very simple and a basic of dating communication.

nothatyoucare · 2023-03-16T12:27:43+00:00

Traditional heterosexual dating and courtship scripts (e.g., men pay for date, women take partner’s last name in marriage) reflect different standards of desirable behavior for women and men. Analogous to sexual double standards, dating double standards reflect the greater agency and power traditionally accorded to men in society. In the present study, we investigated factors related to young heterosexual adults’ endorsement of dating double standards. Participants were 330 female and male U.S. undergraduates at a California public university (57 % female, ages 18–25 years-old) from diverse ethnic backgrounds. In the Heterosexual Dating Double-Standards Scale, respondents rate the desirability of five dating and courtship behaviors (initiate date, hold door open, pay for date, propose marriage, take spouse’s last name) separately for women and men. Preliminary analyses revealed participants generally expressed double standards by rating the desirability of behaviors differently for female and male characters in the traditional direction (e.g., paying for a date rated more desirable for a man than for a woman). We predicted dating double standards would be positively related to factors previously found to predict traditional gender roles (viewing popular media, religious attendance) as well as attitudes that reflect traditional views (conservative political beliefs, benevolent and hostile sexism, disavowing a feminist identity). These hypotheses were generally supported. Among these correlations, dating double standards were strongly associated with benevolent sexism (among women and men) and with hostile sexism (among men). Implications for future research are discussed.

https://www.psypost.org/2022/01/study-of-college-students-indicates-men-are-still-expected-to-pay-the-bill-on-first-dates-62330

A study published in the journal Psychological Reports found that traditional gender norms continue in dating culture, with men almost always paying the whole bill on first dates and paying more than women for subsequent dates – participants also held this expectation of men. Gender role attitudes had little to do with actual practice, but did influence payment expectations.

Heterosexual dating behavior is arguably quite gendered. Men and women may rely on their gender role concepts to guide how to behave in such situations. Women tend to assume a reactive or “gatekeeper” role in romantic relationships, while men adopt a more active role and initiate the first move. In the context of traditional dating, a man would be expected to ask out a woman, make plans, pay for expenses, and initiate any sexual interaction, whereas a woman’s role would be to accept or reject his advances.

Third study:

Research in Sex Roles suggests that heterosexual dating among young adults in the U. S. remains highly gender-typed in terms of cultural scripts (e.g., beliefs, ideals, and expectations), as well as interpersonal scripts (e.g., actual interpersonal emotions, interpersonal behaviors, or behaviors aimed at achieving or signaling a partner). Some variability was observed in interpersonal scripts in terms of occasional initiation of dates by women, for instance, but was not sufficiently widely used to challenge the dominant script.

YveisGrey · 2023-03-16T12:32:19+00:00

Well I agree with you in the grand scheme but I think there is a difference between asking someone on a date and asking them to go for dinner. The intention of the date is romantic, in fact there is even an argument that if a couple goes dutch on a date it removes that romantic aspect and makes the interaction feel platonic.

As a women I have split checks when I didn’t like the guy I think on some level many men know splitting the check is bad sign.

Oh and I will add there’s nothing wrong with holding onto some tradition, it’s not progressivism for the sake of progressivism. A good society would hold onto tradition that are good and get rid of the bad ones. Which I think is the rationale missing in these discussions.

Flashy-Country-800 · 2023-03-16T12:35:21+00:00

It’s less “expectations of payment” and more that any woman looking out for her own interests (monogamy, marriage and family) won’t want to continue dating you if you’re being stingy with her.

miiiing · 2023-03-16T13:02:14+00:00

Who cares if a woman isn't offering to pay every second date or go halves on the initial date then she's not interested in you. I've never had an issue with who pays this isn't the 1970s anymore.

BanEvasion1001 · 2023-03-16T13:07:47+00:00

Stop going on dinner dates.

badgersonice · 2023-03-16T13:15:09+00:00

Nah, I’ve asked out and paid… I said I should pay it since I was the one asking out. He felt awkward about it, though, so I let him pay for another part of the date when he suggested (think coffee then ice cream or whatever).

But going Dutch is also fine, or caving and letting him pay likewise. It helps if your first date isn’t high stakes. It’s really not quite so meaningful who pays if the total bill is $18.00

gymbro718nyc2 · 2023-03-16T13:16:21+00:00

That's just an example of you living in the woman's world instead of inviting her into yours. In your world, you can create whatever rules you feel like. Me? At one point I just stopped dating. I'd go grab a drink with a girl and see if we clicked. Then it's off to one of our apartments. I refused to date. I've called girls up to my place just to fuck. You don't have to date. You don't have to play into that frame.

LupeDyCazari · 2023-03-16T13:29:44+00:00

I dunno.

I never went on a date before.

Not in the traditional sense of what a date is.

I pretty much hang out with the women I'm interested in.

Say, I want to go check out some books at a bookstore that just came in.

I text the woman I'm interested in saying that I'm going to this place at this hour or that hour, and I tell her that if she wants, she can show up for a chat, and she either shows up or doesn't.

Same goes if I want to chill at a dog park, or go for a walk inside of a mall, without buying anything.

I'm interested in women who are interested in me, and the women who are interested in me do not expect me to pay for their time or for their things.

You know, I'm reminded of this thread I once saw and commented on in a baby-boomer relationship forum, and it was about whether the man should pay for the dates or not, and I said that I have never paid for a date and never will, only to become the victim of this middle-aged woman's rage, as she was raining blow after blow on me, because I wouldn't pay for dates, and the mods, people who were in their 60s and 70s and 80's were aware of how rude and childish this lady was being and they didn't do anything.

Mehhhhh, I ain't paying for shit.

And men should only pay for the women they are already in a romantic relationship with. Never pay for a woman you will probably never ever see again anyway.

Fun_Community_6833 · 2023-03-16T15:04:44+00:00

The first date should always be a shorter activity like coffee. However, the man is expected to pay. I don’t see an issue with this. I think you do have a problem with this based on how you feel.

MisterDrac303 · 2023-03-16T16:00:00+00:00

As a man, I use and have used this rule for the last decade. Women have asked me out and when the bill comes 9/10 they would pay that one off time we would split it.

I understand that in no other situation does this apply and also my brother and I going golfing once a year isn’t comparable to someone I’m trying to build a relationship with where things are more equally divided. A friend going out to dinner it is possible that the friend doesn’t have the income to go to dinner and at times will pay for the friends meal, we shouldn’t go out to eat because they can’t afford food? Im a friend through and through and have no issue buying a meal for a friend when needed.

Women don’t mind paying, when lesbians go out they don’t eat for free

BCmutt · 2023-03-16T16:00:41+00:00

I see this topic come up a lot but in real life never had it be a problem because I cant think of a single woman Ive dated in my adult years that didnt have a job and wasnt willing split the bill or get the next one. Is this really still a thing?

Fiestygirl000 · 2023-03-16T17:40:51+00:00

I never understand this argument. If you want a partner that split the cost go find one. If your with someone that doesn’t want to pick up the tab your not compatible, just stop brow beating women who don’t want to play

meangingersnap · 2023-03-16T18:10:27+00:00

You don’t fight with your friends over who’s paying? Weird

Extreme-Nuance · 2023-03-16T18:21:13+00:00

In my social circle, it is the case that whoever invites is paying, whether that's my family and my parents or a friend group. You would phrase it differently if you want to pay separately, "do you want to go out together sometime" vs "I would like to take you out for dinner."

In addition, if you're inviting, and you pay, you get to choose the date. I don't expect to have any input on where we go or what we do. If I'm inviting and I pay, then I get to choose. For example, my husband paid for most of our dates when we were unmarried, but sometimes I wanted him to try something new that was expensive, so I paid for it. Not fair to expect him to pay for something that he might not enjoy.

This was traditionally because women didn't have much income and because the man was so interested in spending time with the woman that he would pay for the privilege of doing so.

HighestTierMaslow · 2023-03-16T19:01:20+00:00

I agree women should pay since we should be equal. The thing is whenever I tried to do that in my actual dating life, meaning I applied this post to my real life, I got alot of bad responses so I stopped. Men assumed 1) I wasnt interested in them (this was the main one) 2) that Im too independent and argumentative, thus I'd be a bad girlfriend 3) Im too much of a try hard or 4) they took it too far and expected me to literally pay all the time for both of us aka take advantage of me or 5) their masculinity/ego got threatened and it annoyed them.

This is very similar to I used to always tell men I wasnt interested after a date or two to be polite. I started doing that too in my early 20s' when I dated because I thought "its the right thing to do, I'd want to know as well" The golden rule right? Well, I stopped doing it eventually because 90% of the time I got bad responses and the headache just became too much for me. It just became easier to not respond and they'd figure it out.

honeycall · 2023-03-16T19:03:47+00:00

True

Thekurdishprince · 2023-03-16T20:12:41+00:00

Ofc it is lol ! No do not get me wrong i always pay but it is more about me controlling the locations of date not because of some chivalry shit.

ContributionPrize728 · 2023-03-16T21:42:49+00:00

Perhaps I am old but I just always paid. The woman attempted to split, I would dissuade with flattery. I vaguely remember one women became quite annoyed when I did. She got back together with her x boyfriend right after, so I never really felt me tryin got pay was the real issue. She just didn’t like me.

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-03-17T00:37:50+00:00

To me it’s more like “whoever invites should offer to pay.” If I invite a platonic friend out I’ll offer to pay. I chose the place and requested their company, not knowing what their budget looks like, it’s only polite.

That being said, if a man offers to pay, I am not immediately taking him up on it just because he asked. I would rather split it and not be indebted to anyone. Now if someone insists on paying, I’m not going argue about it forever. Ideally, both people should be having a good enough time that who pays isn’t a huge issue. Splitting it is just my preference.

Sea_Tour_3696 · 2023-03-17T04:47:44+00:00

I agree with what you're saying. It's an easy scapegoat for some women to use to get the same result. I'm glad my girlfriend was never the type to try and make me pay. We split many things 50/50 or pay for our own food. We do treat each other on occasion. It's nicer this way.

It's definitely a red flag if a girl gets upset either at a cheaper first date or constantly is making you pay for everything. I say use your best judgment and cut off those that you believe have the potential to take advantage of you or already have take advantage of you. I will say it's a nice foot in the door to pay for them.

Also I once had a girl pay for our first date at a coffee place and it was actually really nice. I hadn't ever had anyone do that for me. Of course she was a good bit older than me and I had fixed her car for her free of charge the week prior, but it felt nice having the pressure lifted off my shoulders some.

Title	“Whoever invites pays” is just a way for women to get out of saying “men should pay” (first dates)
Author	italian_whip
Upvotes	212
Comments	358
Date	March 16, 2023 6:24 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/11sm5p2/whoever_invites_pays_is_just_a_way_for_women_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/whoever-invites-pays-is-just-a-way-for-women-to.1180675 https://theredarchive.com/post/1180675

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