Toxic Masculinity | MensRights

[–]What_Is_X 1483 points1484 points1485 points 8 years ago (551 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheYatesMachine 201 points202 points203 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

I think there's a time and a place for all things. I was never taught to be "manly", but I was raised by a single father who probably fits the bill.

We could openly discuss anything as a family and my relationship with him became even more emotionally candid later in life.

But through his actions and my emulation of them, I gained a lot of respect for stoicism, and understanding that I have control over my emotions. I don't think it's "manly" to be tough when the situation calls for it, I think it's pragmatic.

We're also a military family, if that changes things, but there are situations in any life that cause distress, and suppressing that distress allows you to more rationally handle situations.

I think a lot of problematic issues today are being addressed by people fueled with emotion, and that has a tendency to escalate discussion and create divisive narratives.

It takes a calm head to reach compromise.

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So why is talk of "toxic femininity" from feminists so rare (and when it does exist, it's typically about women being too selfless, being too nice, not about selfish power-seeking attitudes in women which ultimately harms both sexes)?

MRAs do talk about the pressure to "man up" a lot, one common phrase in the MRM is "when someone tells you to "man up" they're trying to convince you to do something against your own interests". The difference is MRAs won't call it "toxic masculinity". There's a reason. The term forms part of a larger feminist framing, which seeks to dump all of the blame and shame on men/boys while absolving women/girls - depriving men/boys of recognition of misandry (and the internalisation of it by a large number of men/boys) and stopping dead any cultural calling out of women/girls who advance selfish sexism against men/boys.

Imagine there was a huge and powerful "white-ist" movement which culturally (and institutionally) dominated discussions of racism, which always framed race issues entirely in terms of black perpetration/aggression and white victimhood. Now imagine they routinely cited "toxic black culture" as not just a thing out there (as one factor in a very complex equation, which is very hard to sociologically separate from white racism), but used it as the sole go-to explanation for everything, everything which others might reasonably see as the result of racism against black people. It shouldn't be hard to see what the "white-ist" agenda in that example is.

Imagine "whiteists" saying things like "Black Lives Matter don't care about black people, they just want to shit on whiteism. What are black lives matter doing to end toxic black culture?" And perhaps worse, thinking this is some warm, fuzzy, benevolent, "progressive" thing, not even seeing why it is controversial, why anyone would consider it offensive.

The standard feminist explanation of "toxic masculinity" is that it's ultimately based on the costs men (as a group) are willing to pay for dominance over women. What happens if it's women forcing/coercing this stuff on men? Or boys? https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/messages-of-shame-are-organized-around-gender/275322/

What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early assumptions, men's shame is not primarily inflicted by other men. Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor.

"Most women pledge allegiance to this idea that women can explore their emotions, break down, fall apart—and it's healthy," Brown said. "But guys are not allowed to fall apart." Ironically, she explained, men are often pressured to open up and talk about their feelings, and they are criticized for being emotionally walled-off; but if they get too real, they are met with revulsion.

What happens if the "special respect" which pressures of "manning up" are supposedly about securing, simply isn't there, but the demand of "being a man" still is? Not as a thing of male dominance, but of male disposability? Again, a narrative of "toxic masculinity" (especially as typically advanced by feminists) shuts down any potential for cultural recognition of this.

Another thing "toxic masculinity" achieves is that it functions as a means of perpetuating stereotypes (particularly everything you think of when you hear the term "testosterone poisoning"), rather than challenging them. Articles like this

Scientists and laymen have spent the last 50 years dispelling myths about women. I worry that journalists, academics and laymen will continue to perpetuate an equal number of myths about men.

are very rare from the feminist movement, I've literally never seen one on any major feminist platform. Imagine what evidence-contradicted racist stereotypes a "whiteist" movement could push if allowed to wave away accusations of racism by simply declaring "look, we're not saying it's biology, it's toxic black culture, therefore it's not racist to declare all the negative stereptypes about black people to be true".

Where does male privelege end and female privelege begin? It's a very hard question. What would be vastly more productive is to just focus on the sexism itself, and to call that out, in both sexes.

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[–]Azurenightsky6 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, that is the definition of what it means to be a Man. You cannot act as though there is no objective truth to what I've said, you haven't even tackled it, you've dismissed it outright because it does not allign with your feelings on the matter. I don't care about your feelings, what I do care about are simple truths. The simple truth is, a man is a man and everything else is everything else. What makes a man? Whatever is left when you strip away everything until he ceases to be that which he is and becomes something else. That core, that essence, is masculinity. Don't like it? I don't give a fuck.

The term "Toxic Masculinity" is bullshit. I refuse to cede the linguistic ground because it presents the notion that there is something toxic about masculinity or being masculine. You may not use it in that manner, I don't really give a fuck. It follows the same train of hollow rhetoric as the term "Person of Color". No, I am not a "person of color" you fucking bigot, I'm an Abo, or sometimes a chugger, depending on who you ask. I do not share a common history with any but my own people and humanity as a whole. I cannot be blended and mixed with other "races" just because we think "White identity" is a thing.

As I said, I will not cede linguistic ground and I refuse this backwater notion of "That's just like, your opinion man." as I've already clearly demonstrated, it is not a matter of opinion.

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You seem to have an incomplete understanding of the definition of the term toxic masculinity. "some men are bad people in some ways" is an enormous misunderstanding of the meaning of the term and it's usefulness. Literally no one with a solid education on the topic uses it in that way. I can understand why you'd think it was worthless.

The term doesn't describe men's actual individual behaviors; it's instead a term encompassing society's idea of how men should act. Specifically the more destructive parts. When someone says toxic masculinity is bad, they aren't even talking about men, they're talking about society at large. Several of the objections you raised aren't an issue when using the term correctly. If you're interested I can give you a brief rundown on the term and how it's used. If you still think it's useless after that, no worries, but at least you won't be arguing from ignorance.

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Male tears is spunk lmfao

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[–]Azurenightsky -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

The second one is not toxic.

Reality is, you either man up and hold onto the rope for dear life or you don't and we can't trust you with us when we are in actual danger.

The way of men evolved over a hundred and fifty thousand years, for about 135,000~145,000 of those years, men had to secure terrain and ensure the safety of the tribe. If I cannot trust you to have my back out there in the chaos where I might die. Then I cannot bring you with me. I cannot have half my focus watching out for someone else. Lives are on the line.

If you think a mere five thousand years is going to overcome that when by and large we've had to face off against it for most of that history as well. I'm afraid reality simply won't hold.

It is not toxic masculinity to uphold a standard that separates Men from the boys and the women. It may not be very PC, but nature and reality do not care about being PC.

[–]mrBatata 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Your answer is not far off from the truth.

Where I live no one considers that to be toxic. Just standard. It's not to trow you down it's to force you to be better. It has the purpose of training men to get though and to spite them to be better, train harder, get new solutions.

None of them WOULD BE toxic if we lived in a competition favorable culture. Instead we live in a feminist culture that tells us that being weak is ok and there's nothing wrong with not trying to be better. Thus men become passive and self destructive, they don't understand that all our evolution has required us to be strong in order to mate and to defend our species.

This thread is the perfect example of why this sub exists, you guys fall into the female narrative (that by way does not know shit about male behaviour) and let yourselves and by extension the rest of us get shat on by women. And get butt hurt with by anything.

Go ahead prove me right downvote this.

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It is when you are asking for evidence regarding colloquially regarded knowledge. The thing that you are asking for evidence about falls under the same category as other items of anthropological and historical fact...things like the existence of Bronze and Iron Age civilizations, the creation of agriculture, and the transition from hunter-gatherer to agrarian societies.

But what is worse about your remark is that you were not asking for evidence in a query based upon good faith but in an attempt to disparage the person that you were replying to...your motives were not pure. You were just trying to spread salt and piss in a feeble attempt to attack that person.

If you want to deny that, then feel free. But the context of your language in this particular post doesn't lend credence to such a claim. But I am open to being convinced otherwise...have at it...I'm waiting.

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[–]Arasin89 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

It's not a degrading term for inherently male traits, it's a term that refers to a set of traits that have traditionally been associated with males through history but that have now become increasingly problematic in our modern society. Constant jealousy, an obsession with power dynamics, an aversion to becoming emotionally vulnerable and discussing intimate feelings, all these things were, evolutionarily speaking (so to speak) beneficial for men in a time when one's survival depended on one's ability to exert constant control on ones safety and ability to procreate, and when to bare ones feelings or doubts would indeed have made one appear weak and instill doubt in one's followers or friends.

Now however these traits are maladaptive. The society we live in has largely secured our physically safety and women are no longer seen as simply procreation vectors to be controlled. What it means to be a man has changed from what it meant, say, 500 years ago. Despite this the ideal of masculinity which existed 500 years ago still persists in many communities, and does alot of harm to young men trying to find their place. They find themselves caught between an inherited idea of manhood they think they should live up to and a society that seems confused about what men should be, and sometimes downright hostile towards the idea these young men inherited from their fathers, for whom the old notion of masculinity worked much better than it generally will today.

Of course there's misandric sentiment that can get involved in some of the instances of male behavior being called out as toxic. There are times when ordinary human behavior that would be seen as innocuous in women can appear to some as sinister or toxic when coming from men, often due to over corrections in portions of society as backlash against the rampant sexism against women that has existed for generations. Nonetheless, toxic masculinity, which certainly exists outside of whatever various misandric groups who may wish to use it to bash some men unfairly, does the most harm to the men it catches, as until they are able to let go of it, they will tend to become only more and more frustrated with their seeming inability to operate in the modern world, despite their feeling that they have done everything that society (certain parts of it, certainly) has asked of them.

[–]Wambo453 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is a very roundabout way of arguing that the issue of whether masculinity is toxic or not, is a matter of degree rather than quality. You are repudiating the "need" for masculinity because: "modernity". The fact that so many people keep parroting this sentiment, and then passing it off as a sophisticated criticism is frustrating. You are arguing that we don't need to be so masculine in 2018. And that's bullshit. We need it more than ever, just without the general pathologies that can, and do afflict humans in general. But that is a statement that is true for everyone, completely independent of whether we're talking about a masculine person or not.

The psychological and behavioral problems we face as a species have nothing to do with masculinity. They have to do with the cultural tolerance for pathology.

[–]Arasin896 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Seems like you're actually not understanding what I'm saying. I am not arguing that "we" don't need to be "so masculine" in modernity, I'm saying that there are traits that have traditionally been associated with masculinity that are no longer useful in a society that guarantees physical safety in the way that ours does, and treats women as equals in the way that ours does. The type of masculinity of the past that valued physical strength over all else, the inability to see one's own faults, a rejection of female agency, a lack of emotional nuance, that is a masculinity that hurts everybody, and that is what is being referred to as toxic.

I don't think humanity's main problem is toxic masculinity, I think it has to mainly do with tribalism and lack of self awareness and emotional maturity, but that's a whole different discussion. In any case, I never said that our main problem is toxic masculinity, so were in agreement on that one.

I do disagree that we need masculinity tho, I don't really believe in alot of the things we talk about as masculine and feminine anyway, tbh. Any positive traits I can see seem equally applicable to all sexes.

[–]Wambo452 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Seems like you're actually not understanding what I'm saying. I am not arguing that "we" don't need to be "so masculine" in modernity, I'm saying that there are traits that have traditionally been associated with masculinity that are no longer useful in a society that guarantees physical safety in the way that ours does, and treats women as equals in the way that ours does. The type of masculinity of the past that valued physical strength over all else, the inability to see one's own faults, a rejection of female agency, a lack of emotional nuance, that is a masculinity that hurts everybody, and that is what is being referred to as toxic.

These are all projections and conjecture which aren't based in any objective reality of what masculinity is at the descriptive level. Not being able to see one's own faults is a "traditionally masculine" problem? What!? Not being emotionally nuanced is a "traditionally masculine" problem? Huh!? You can't be serious.

I do disagree that we need masculinity tho

And there it is. The smoking gun. This is precisely my point.

I don't really believe in alot of the things we talk about as masculine and feminine anyway, tbh. Any positive traits I can see seem equally applicable to all sexes.

Let me guess, you're an egalitarian?

[–]Arasin891 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Seems like we're from entirely different worlds of thought here. To me I'm just saying completely non controversial things, to you they seem like these crazy left wing wacko insidious bad faith arguments.

You say I'm not getting at what masculinity actually "is", but that's almost the whole basis of my point here, there's no such thing as masculinity outside of what society defines it as. You can look at different cultures from around the world and find sometimes wildly different ideas of what masculinity is, including cultures where meekness and docility are considered the male ideal. So when I say that certain negative traits are traditionally masculine issues, I mean that they are issues that have been created by societal expectations placed on men, specifically for our discussion societies that are similar to our own in certain regards. Certain cultures have absolutely told men they shouldn't ever feel sad or show emotions, I don't know how to prove this to you, you can see it all the time in the way young boys react to certain types of trauma and you can see it when they grow up and think going to a therapist is "gay" or the like.

I don't think men need any guidance on what sort of person to be other than to be themselves and to be kind, genuine, thoughtful, people who stay true to their own convictions and do what they believe is necessary in order to achieve their own beliefs and goals. I would say the exact same thing about women. It sounds like if I say I'm an egalitarian you have alot of negative ideas about what that means. Would you elaborate? Have you been in a situation where someone called themselves an egalitarian, for instance, and then was very sexist against men?

[–]Wambo451 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Seems like we're from entirely different worlds of thought here. To me I'm just saying completely non controversial things, to you they seem like these crazy left wing wacko insidious bad faith arguments.

To me it seems like we have a disagreement, and potentially a fundamental one in how we define the terms we're using to have the debate. And I don't think it's relevant or helpful to invoke anything political about this topic, in regards to left or right wing. But I will say that what you're saying is most definitely controversial.

You say I'm not getting at what masculinity actually "is", but that's almost the whole basis of my point here, there's no such thing as masculinity outside of what society defines it as.

This is simply not true. This is the relativist "social construct" argument. For starters, everything is a social construct. Secondly, everything that is defined at all, is defined by "society". It therefore follows that not everything we have highly prevalent consensus on, is inherently a construct imposed from the top-down. There are a myriad of examples of social phenomena which are emergent behaviors. Gender expression would be one of those things. You don't decide your gender and people (i.e. society) doesn't bestow you with it. You're not a blank slate.

There are descriptive and prescriptive qualities of masculinity/femininity. Masculinity at a descriptive level is merely behaviors and predispositions highly correlated with males. For instance, being boisterous or loud is a masculine trait, not for any prescriptive ideal that society imposes on men, that they need to be or should be loud and obnoxious, but simply because there is such a much higher correlation between it and being male. It is an emergent behavior tied to the physiological male from an extremely young age.

You can look at different cultures from around the world and find sometimes wildly different ideas of what masculinity is, including cultures where meekness and docility are considered the male ideal.

An "ideal" would be in the prescriptive field, not the descriptive (i.e. not objective). But just to explore this, because I have to entertain it, where in the world is that an "ideal male"? And where did you come to learn that? In any event, the mere fact that I find it so hard to believe already speaks volumes about its unique character, if it's even true. Because if it is, it's definitely the exception that proves the rule. For the vast, vast majority of the world, there are striking similarities in perception of gender. It is one of the most transcendent social characteristics of humans, in that it persists through geography, language, religion and culture in general. Gender expression and biological sex is also one of the most highly correlated observable phenomena in behavioral science. The level of global conspiracy it would take for this kind of thing to merely be a top-down "construct" imposed on people, is very hard to take seriously given the facts.

So when I say that certain negative traits are traditionally masculine issues, I mean that they are issues that have been created by societal expectations placed on men, specifically for our discussion societies that are similar to our own in certain regards.

And we can talk about some of those things, because I can see where you're going, but the examples you gave in your previous response were just absolutely ridiculous, completely made up and arbitrary. And that is at the crux of why I find phrases like "toxic masculinity" to be utter bullshit.

But another key thing to remember, and it's important for me to reiterate this from my past paragraph, these things aren't unique to western culture. Even societies very different from our own share most of these perceptions, despite the occasional subtle variance here and there. The only way for so many incredibly different cultures to all come up with such similar prescriptions of ideal male qualities, is because we're all working with the same descriptive qualities (i.e. ingredients). Our proverbial cakes may come out tasting different, but at the end of the day we all baked a similar cake working with what we were given, with the end goal being survival.

Certain cultures have absolutely told men they shouldn't ever feel sad or show emotions, I don't know how to prove this to you, you can see it all the time in the way young boys react to certain types of trauma and you can see it when they grow up and think going to a therapist is "gay" or the like.

There is more nuance to it than "never show emotion", but I understand the point. Here's the thing though, it's a highly useful trait for human survival and sexual selection. Women have by and large selected men for the trait of emotional resilience. Women do not like soft, vulnerable, emotional men. It is a visceral, natural turn off for a lot of women just to see a man cry, that they have virtually zero control over. Men have essentially been bred for this. And again, hence why we see such a high correlation between predispositions toward compartmentalization and stoicism in males versus females. It's what humans needed to survive. Somebody had to embody these traits and men were naturally selected for them, being the logical choice.

Now if you want to get into the supporting human socialization which accompanies this, and how boys and men are sometimes abused in that endeavor, by both and males and females, when they fail to live up to certain ideals or standards, we can talk about that. But my position is that any behavior which crosses that line as being harmful or sadistic, is pathological and innate to humans in general, rather than an indictment on the very idea of "masculinity". To say it's wrong for a parent to beat their son for crying is an obvious understatement. But to in turn ignore the pragmatism and healthy benefits of exhorting young men to not give up, not sit around and mope, not be a crybaby, not wallow in self pity, not romanticize vulnerability or victimhood, etc, for fear that you're imposing some "masculinity construct" is not some novel idea for a healthy restructuring of society. It's simply a deferment to femininity as the superior and by extension, the obvious choice for everyone to embrace. And I reject this, because masculine exhortation can be ethical and non-abusive, yet still highly useful, while remaining unabashedly and unquestionably masculine.

I don't think men need any guidance on what sort of person to be other than to be themselves and to be kind, genuine, thoughtful, people who stay true to their own convictions and do what they believe is necessary in order to achieve their own beliefs and goals.

Okay, but that's an extremely vague - here's that word again - prescription for what men need, which doesn't address the seemingly infinite potential contexts of life. This is functionally just an empty feel-good platitude you're giving me. Some people have far too much conviction in their own made up bullshit. Being kind is sometimes at odds with being genuine. And achieving your goals takes a lot of grit, determination, discipline, focus and drive - all of which teeter on a masculine exhortation that you've painted yourself into a corner over, due to there being such overlap between good guidance and hurt feelings.

I would say the exact same thing about women. It sounds like if I say I'm an egalitarian you have alot of negative ideas about what that means. Would you elaborate? Have you been in a situation where someone called themselves an egalitarian, for instance, and then was very sexist against men?

I didn't ask if you believed in egalitarianism as a way to pigeon hole you, or have a "gotcha" moment. I asked genuinely because it is, of course, an ideological position, and one that helps me understand your motivations behind your arguments. And it also raises other questions, because often times when people claim to be egalitarian, what they really end up meaning is that they are advocates for a feminine-superior prescriptive deference for all people - and it's the "all people" part that leads them to think they're egalitarian, and why it tends to fly under others' radar. This is also something I reject, both egalitarianism itself and the feminine-superior narrative.

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Sorry to barge in on the debate, but I see no reason to call certain behaviours with a description that relates to the gender. There are traits that exist in the set of "toxic masculine" traits that can be applied to women as well. Should we say women have toxic masculine traits? Why don't we just say men have certain toxic feminine traits as well?

It implies that every man has within him these toxic behaviours just because he's a man. It's counter productive because people who don't have these behaviours might try to solve a problem they don't have, possibly leading to confusion and basically considering the whole idea of toxic behaviours as nonsense.

It makes no sense to label behaviours that apply to both genders with a gendered label. Why not just call them "toxic behaviours" and be done with it? Instead, we tack on the "masculinity" part because it puts more blame on men just for being a man.

It can be extended to black communities. We don't say the people that live in majority black, high crime rate places, have toxic black behaviours. Why? Because it generalizes those things to an entire race and that makes no sense.

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No, it's referring to the problem of working into the societal conditioning of what it means to be a man, things that toxic people would do.

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Depending on how it’s affecting your life, it can be. Conditioning boys to ignore pain, your body’s signal that something is wrong, can be a toxic behavior. Approaching every problem from a place of anger, even when understanding would be more effective, can be a toxic behavior. Discouraging young boys from expressing sadness can be a toxic behavior. And parental pressure to be tough can encourage boys to bully their peers who don’t display the same typically masculine traits, because they’re taught that it’s wrong to be gentle or shy or to prefer “girl games.”

My husband was raised by a former military stepfather who I’m pretty certain struggled with PTSD. While my husband is grateful for some of the lessons he took from his upbringing and believes that having that very tough, very masculine influence in his life made him a stronger person (and I don’t completely disagree), there were some other things he had to unlearn in order to have a happy relationship. Repressing negative feelings and refusing to communicate them was actively hurting both of us; it hurt him because he wasn’t addressing the thing that made him unhappy, and it hurt me because I had to see a person I loved being miserable but couldn’t help.

[–]BroaxXx 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Yes I appreciate that but, again, being tough isn't inherently toxic. Like everything in life it only depends to which degree you are tough. I think being a bit tough is very positive as it helps you not shy away from challenges and adversity.

Ignoring pain is, obviously, wrong but being able to withstand some pain is positive. Not expressing sadness is wrong but being so sensitive that you take emotional pain from irrelevant things is also bad.

I don't think masculinity is inherently bad as I don't think being tough is inherently bad. It's just to which degree you take things. At some extreme point it does become detrimental as anything else in life (like femininity).

Either way I'm glad to know you and your husband were able to pull through his issues and that things are better now. :)

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Originally I agreed with you, however I'm starting to see problems with this notion.

The term refers to a toxic subset of masculine behaviours, such as being "tough" and not talking about issues.

The first claim is framed in a very negative way. Think about 'being tough', what traits underpin this behaviour? Resilience, steadfastness, bravery, commitment, and sure sometimes arrogance and egoism. Most of those traits are not negative, but they are portrayed as such under the definition of "being tough"

Now lets look at the next example, "not talking about issues". This one is more objective since it is a literal statement of an action. However, there is one important detail missing here; talk to whom? If you are talking to your loved ones or therapist, absolutely this makes sense. But what if it's a public meeting, or a discussion with a business partner, would this be an appropriate time to talk about your issues? Now if you're especially open-minded you might still say 'sure' to this, but let's think about what we are doing when we talk about our emotional issues. Essentially it is an act of revealing one's vulnerabilities to others. In the hands of a therapist, this can act as a release and allow the therapist to find an appropriate solution to the problem. In the hands of an enemy, you have just provided them a key to bringing out your most painful experiences. Think about children who may encounter bullies, would you want them to talk about their issues to these bullies? So I would say this one is a half truth (the part that relates to opening up to specialists being the truth component).

The problem then with having an overarching definition of 'toxic masculinity' is that it bundles in good behaviours such as resilience, and not revealing your vulnerabilities to those who may exploit them, with bad ones such as being arrogant and not seeking help for mental issues. If you are extremely careful (as I hope I've been), then you can pick these out. However many journalists do not pick these out, or do so haphazardly with what comes across as disdain for masculinity overall, not just the more 'toxic' components. In essence, it is too easy of a shift from 'toxic masculinity' to 'masculinity is toxic', that this becomes the argument, rather than taking a more nuanced approach that acknowledges the reasons why manly behaviours that seem antagonistic are in fact desirable (such as toughness).

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Men are tough, though. They're not acting tough, they are tough. They're strong, resilient and steadfast. That's what toughness is. Toughness and compassion are not mutually exclusive and I'm sure you'd be the first to parade around saying women are tough.

I think this is part of the problem with the whole concept of toxic masculinity... Feminists don't understand what most men think of as masculinity. You hear us say men are tough, strong and brave and you think we mean aggressive, physically strong and ready to get into a fight. You have no concept of what men consider to be masculine, you don't even know how to define masculinity among yourselves, yet seem perfectly fine with a blanket judgement that it is somehow wrong.

Has it ever occurred to you that different men believe different qualities represent masculinity and that the vast majority of those men link positive qualities with masculinity? Has it ever crossed your mind that masculinity is just as varied and positive as femininity, just in different ways?

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I'm going to assume you're arguing in good faith, so I'm going to let you know that the people who believe masculinity is toxic understand that saying this outright makes people not receptive to their message. If they frame it in a way that sounds like they are trying to help men by preventing behaviors that hurt them, then people will be much more receptive to that message. From there they can argue against all kinds of things that are normal or positive or neutral and claim that they are in the camp of toxic masculinity. When these anti masculinity activists get pushed, they just jump back to talking about definitions and how ending toxic masculinity is good because ending bad things is good etc. Then people who aren't paying attention will not think that the activists have any ill will and a bunch of useful idiots (like yourself) will step up to defend them because the definition of toxic masculinity is strictly this bad thing so it must be stopped etc.

Anyone who has been targeted and had their behavior vilified by these activists realizes that they've been getting gaslighted for years and it actually really pisses them off that anybody defends them so naively.

Toxic masculinity is whatever these assholes want it to be, but because they define it as a bad thing, people like you will stand up to defend their attacks on masculinity because your positive masculinity just hasn't been targeted yet.

So since I've been vague so far I'll give an example. Lots of boys talk shit with their friends and make fun of eachother. This has been called toxic masculinity. This is not at all toxic, it's useful bonding exercises that we use to motivate eachother to embolden eachother to achieve more. Sure it can be misused, same as any other tool, but this has been vilified. We are stripping boys of useful social tools while claiming that we are helping them. We make them ashamed to engage with eachother naturally because for some reason these activists don't like these behaviors.

If you keep defending this term, I'm just going to assume you have the goal of dismantling all masculinity and are no longer just a useful idiot. There's no way you can deny that this word is cover the same way the piety of the position of priest is cover for the perverse actions of those who hold it.

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How is being tough toxic?

It just means that you can handle a lot of pain or extreme circumstances.

It also isn't a misunderstanding of the term. Where is the talk about toxic femininity? When in reality both sexes have toxic people trying to keep others in their gender role.

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However the term is currently utilised, it is a gendered and offensive term created in feminist theory to reinforce the notion that all males contribute towards a patriarchal system through negative behaviour. To illustrate the issue, I ask where feminism defines, "toxic femininity". Presumably femininity imbues its own negative behaviours, and yet you won't find the term anywhere. To even suggest such a term will invite criticisms of sexism. We should never paint men with broad brushstrokes, just as we should never do the same for women. We are unique, and men and masculinity is inherently good.

This isn't to say we shouldn't work on negative attitudes within our culture. Just that we should never use the term "toxic masculinity", and we should certainly never use any social framework which was developed using a feminist and therefore feminine perspective. Our challenges are unique and should be tackled from within.

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They feel that any positive description of masculinity implies a lack of those qualities in women.

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There's entire genres of movies dedicated to the virtues of masculinity tho. It pervades our society.

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Feminists don't think like Tony Robbins or Joe Rogan though. I was debating with people I know from work who are huge progressives (I used to be one but I changed the way I think to get rid of my victim mentality) and they were treating me like scum because I was trying to argue that limiting beliefs have more of an impact on people than the sexism and racism in our society.

I kept trying to tell them that all self improvement influencers teach something to this effect, and that I'm only attacking the mentality that feminism/cultural Marxism breeds. I recognized the toxic victim mentality because I understood and overcame mine. They said "I'm happy for you, but you're wrong." No matter what I say, they want to stay in their comfortable victim mentality.

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It's not a misunderstanding. It's a recognisation that it's just the latest vaguely-defined feminist buzzword (see: patriarchy) that due to the looseness of its definition can be used to blame almost any problem you like on men. It's why you never see women policing other women's femininity called "toxic femininity". It's why there's never any discussion of the role women play in shaping and encouraging these behaviours in men, despite the fact that most seem to stem from sexual competition and trying to meet attractiveness standards (being strong, confident, assertive, "manly"). It's just another way for feminists to shit on men.

On this sub we often have discussions about how expectations and stereotypes of men can be harmful. It's very possible to have those discussions without being derogatory, accusatory and, frankly, bigoted towards men. But I've read a lot of feminist discourse on it, and they have no interest in anything other than blaming everything men and creating their own set of negative stereotypes of men.

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From Everyday Feminism: "hypermasculinity (also known as 'toxic masculinity')"

https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/01/leave-behind-toxic-masculinity-2017/

Aha, so according to Everyday Feminism, the masculine side of the spectrum becomes more and more toxic as you go further to that side.

Feminism is based on the blank slate theory and the idea that all of our beliefs and behaviors are purely cultural, but that's not completely true. Hormones affect our moods, bodies, and behaviors (like testosterone). A trans man (Griffin) explains what it's like to have twice as much testosterone than the manliest men:

"The most overwhelming feeling is the incredible increase in libido and change in the way that I perceived women and the way I thought about sex.

Before testosterone, I would be riding the subway, which is the traditional hotbed of lust in the city. And I would see a woman on the subway and I would think, she's attractive. I'd like to meet her. What's that book she's reading? I could talk to her. This is what I would say. There would be a narrative. There would be this stream of language. It would be very verbal.

After testosterone, there was no narrative. There was no language whatsoever. It was just, I would see a woman who was attractive-- or not attractive. She might have an attractive quality-- nice ankles or something-- and the rest of her would be fairly unappealing to me.

But that was enough to basically just flood my mind with aggressive pornographic images, just one after another. It was like being in a pornographic movie house in my mind. And I couldn't turn it off. I could not turn it off. Everything I looked at, everything I touched turned to sex."

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone

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Toxic masculinity is not why men lose their families, why women do not allow them to see their children, why government doesn't fund domestic violence shelters for men, why some countries have redefined legal rape to exclude men who are raped by women, why feminists and feminist organizations like the National Organization for Women oppose default shared custody at every turn. Toxic masculinity is not why the boys Boko Haram burned alive got no world wide outrage when Bring Back Our Girls was going on.

Toxic masculinity isn't a thing. Toxic femininity is not a thing.

Toxic masculinity is a way to blame men for their own problems, like patriarchy, and to falsely address men's issues in a way that will offer no real solution. Because it's not a real problem. Like patriarchy "hurting men too".

It ensures that we don't reflect on why it is we don't report on boys burned alive by Boko Haram. It ensures we don't consider boys raped by female teachers to be victims. It ensures we don't do anything to look at the actual reasons why society is harming boys and men, and the ways that it completely ignores them. It ensures we don't reflect on things of the past like the white feather brigade where women would shame men into signing up to die in war. Why we insist that boys and men take abuse from women to protect her.

And it's a wonder why we kill ourselves more often than women and girls. Gee, it must be "toxic masculinity". It couldn't be the legal system stacked against men. Or complete apathy toward male pain from greater society.

Good thing we're talking about this totally real thing that can't be tangibly defined by anybody and shifts like the wind. We can totally solve this "real" issue. But we'd never be able to change the law. We'd never be able to acknowledge historical facts. We'd never be able to fund shelters for abused men and their children to go to. We'd never be able to protect infant boys from genital mutilation.

Nope. Let's keep sword fighting the fart, that'll help men. Any day now. It'll magically solve all of men's problems.

Get out of here.

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[–]Elvick1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, years of articles and posts here from subscribers that constantly argue against the concept of 'toxic masculinity' and call out those who do. That isn't going to suddenly change over night to the complete polar opposite.

But you're not "arguing" [accusing] in good faith. Look at your post history. I went back a month and the only /r/mensrights post you've made are... in here. Hmmmm. I go back further and over 2 months ago I find one and it's.... another highly voted up submission with over 1000+... HMMMM. And then when on the last page in my over 3 months looking, I find yet another lone post from you... in you guessed it, a submission with nearly 4000+ votes. HMMM

But people who don't frequent here totally aren't coming here to spread their own opinions and upvote/downvote things they agree with that don't represent the positions of the "voting population here".

Nope. Not a single person EVER does that. Oh, except you. But let's not get into reality. Let's pretend that /r/mensrights is behind "toxic masculinity" as a concept, because a regular such as yourself would know better than I.

lol, bye bye.

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the fact that some men act like dickheads is all women's fault!

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Of course I did, who the fuck do you think you are, telling me what I read or didn't read?

Toxic masculinity is defined by adherence to traditional male gender roles that restrict the kinds of emotions allowable for boys and men to express, including social expectations that men seek to be dominant (the "alpha male") and limit their emotional range primarily to expressions of anger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

It says nothing there about stress and pressure to conform. Only about feelings, not the actual realities of being a man. Which is expected from a term invented by sheltered academia to discuss problems they will never face. It's funny when people who have no idea what it means to be a man, because they had everything provided for them on silver platter, starts theorizing about shit they don't know. Perhaps the mythopoetic men's movement should start talking to working class men instead of circlejerking about literature.

[–]WikiTextBot1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Toxic masculinity

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and sociology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.

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[+]Dagobert_The_Second 8 years ago* [recovered] (34 children) | Copy Link

some feminists annoy you because they make broad negative statements about all men
this makes you make broad negative statements about all feminists

Nice logic. Working for a better world there bro.

[+]ilikecombos11 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is an ideology. It's not at all comparable to attacking a group based on born traits.

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You are taking it to the opposite extreme which is just as silly.

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We are talking about if feminist ‘extremists’ are leading the worldwide movement for feminism.

No. You claimed it was unfair to judge feminism by some radicals. I pointed out that, unlike the mrm, those radicals were actually leading the movement and setting policy.

So it would be like if I said we could judge the Republican party by their elected officials and leaders and you came back with yeah well then we can judge Christianity by the Westboro church. It just doesn't work because these aren't equivalent.

You're in way over your head and you don't even understand the topic of the discussion.

Feminist leaders have given us horrible anti male policies. Feminist leaders are radicals who have hurt men.

There simply is no equivalent in the mrm.

So it's ok to judge feminism by it's leaders with thousands of followers as opposed to judging the mrm by a handful of trolls no one pays any attention to.

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Well I hope you realize it doesn't, because it's just an anecdote by some guy about what he hasn't heard certain people talk about...

Sure it does.

Burden of proof is on you if you disagree.

If you think that feminists talk about the good in masculinity, then the burden of proof is on you to show that. If you can't, then that means it hasn't happened.

Just like if I were to claim that say, MRAs have done a lot to help women fight for abortion rights, the burden of proof would be on me.

You'd probably say "Where is your proof of that, I've never heard of MRAs doing anything about abortion."

If I then said "well, just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean anything" - that would be an obvious cop-out for the fact that I had no proof.

And not to mention, we have seen plenty of feminists attack masculinity, and not just an absence of saying something good about masculinity.

[–]MoveOfTen1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure it does.

No, it doesn't. Anecdotes don't prove anything. And not having heard someone talk about a thing doesn't prove anything about their opinion on said thing. It's a double fail.

If you think that feminists talk about the good in masculinity, then the burden of proof is on you to show that.

I never even made that claim. I claimed that I've never heard anyone use the term "toxic masculinity" to mean that "men are bad" or that "all masculinity is bad". I'm open to examples, just haven't heard it. Every time I've seen it, it's been in reference to certain things that are considered "masculine" that harm men (e.g. excessive stoicism, not expressing emotion, etc).

If you can't, then that means it hasn't happened.

No, it doesn't. That's ridiculous.

And not to mention, we have seen plenty of feminists attack masculinity.

Perhaps you have. I haven't.

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"Masculinity is extremely toxic to our mental health"

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This exactly. A more descriptive term might be “the toxic masculine stereotype,” or even “the socially toxic effect of the masculine stereotype.”

Basically, it refers to all the bad behaviors that a man tends to exhibit when they don’t have strong male role models in their life. We end up with a lot of men who are just pretending at what it means to be a man because it’s what they think men’re supposed to be: aggressive (instead of relentless), angry (instead of passionate), great shows of machismo (rather than quiet assured confidence), etc. Just like Edward Norton‘s character says in fight club: “I’m just a 32-year-old boy.”

So yeah. The phrase was never intended to paint all man as being toxic. Anyone, even women, who use the phrase in that way are actually exhibiting a form of toxic masculinity themselves.

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[+]NibblyPig 8 years ago* [recovered] (19 children) | Copy Link

Yes there is. It's the very definition of unmanliness.

We've evolved over thousands of years to be stoic and show strength, it's the core of our mating strategy. To ask men to open up and be soft is to ask them to go against their own programming. They'll be unhappier and have less success in life, less respect from other people, and will find it nigh impossible to attract a woman. It's why men are happy doing unpleasant hard working jobs - because they enjoy it. They're programmed to do hard, challenging work in unpleasant conditions in exchange for status/wealth. Most of them would be unhappy if you took that away, and lash out (hence youth programs to curb teenage violence).

I'll give you a controversial example.

In general when a man sees a woman who is obese he is not attracted to her. This is evolution, she does not appear as a healthy prospect. When okcupid or similar dating site published stats, the number one fear of men was that the woman would be overweight. YMMV but in general there's a strong repulsion. Now try to understand that the exact same feeling of repulsion exists for women, but instead of being driven by the man being overweight, it is driven by their perception of a man being weak, needy, and vulnerable. To her, those things are the terrible traits and a huge turn off. If you open up and be like that as a man, she will feel exactly like you'd feel if she were 400lbs.

And not only women, men will not respect them either. Guys who are smooth, confident talkers that show no weakness and are tough-guys are hugely respected. Why? Because when women are assessing men for their status, they look at guys. If a guy is respected by his peers he has more status. If he's the centre of his group then he's high status. There's an old adage that to impress a woman, you should impress men.

Showing weakness denies the true nature of man, other men, women, and society in general. Saying males have toxic traits is no different from some HAES crap. Trying to tell men they can deny the responsibility of their true nature. Yes, men will struggle. They won't ask for help as much as they "should". But life is a struggle. Men know it, they live it every day, being completely disposable. It's how society works. Men need to embrace it.

Edit: If you disagree, just consider then the epitome of the vulnerable weak man - the incel. He is sad that he has no dating success, he laments and pours his heart and soul out. He doesn't remain stoic, or quiet about his problems, instead he verbalises them, he asks women to give him a chance because he's a nice guy, he wears his vulnerability and problems on the outside and begs people to give him a chance. And somehow that's what men should strive for? Really?

[–]What_Is_X 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

It's funny because you do understand part of the truth (confidence being attractive) but have the rest of it completely backwards. You couldn't be more wrong. Women do not find your fake facade of silent problem repression attractive, they see it (correctly) as weak because you're afraid of being perceived as such. Truly confident men are not afraid of and do not shy away from acknowledging and discussing problems to solve them. Vulnerability isn't unattractive, it's highly attractive because it shows true inner confidence rather than fake outer confidence. This is explained ad nauseum and well accepted in the modern dating community.

That said, there probably are some ditsy bitches who think vulnerability is weak, and they desperately wish to be consoled by a facade of strength even if it is fake. That's fine; worthy men don't want anything to do with such women. There are plenty of try hard cave men to fill that demand, such as it exists.

[+]NibblyPig 8 years ago* [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Women do not find your fake facade of silent problem repression attractive

It's not fake, it's literally dealing with your own problems. The book Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus explains it quite well.

Dump all of your problems onto a woman and she will not find you attractive. She might listen and be your friend, but she really won't be interested in you because you've just shown you can't deal with your own issues.

Nothing you've said is accepted in any 'dating community'. I'm baffled you think there is any merit in it at all.

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I've already read it, but I don't subscribe to it because it's predicated on the idea that men already know how to act and that being vulnerable is simply acting how they want to act. The proper term is 'outcome independence', not vulnerability.

Unfortunately men do not know how to act, society has told them misinformation, so when they enact his version of vulnerability, they end up acting like my virgin friends, who are nice and polite and joke how they want to joke and say what they want to say, but do not see any success because how they act is built upon what society incorrectly told them.

What he says is silly because he uses the example of the confident guy that says what he wants and gives no fucks. But the reality is people aren't like that by default. If a person was to do that, it would be a guy telling a girl he likes her, or confessing how much he loves her, or calling her pretty, or buying her gifts. All the things that will result in failure. I know because my virgin friends are like this. They really want to fawn over girls. It's what society has told them will work to win them over. What he says is nonsense.

And confessing your true deep feelings to your girlfriend is vulnerability, and it's also part of what he says because he says you shouldn't be afraid to just say how you're feeling, and act how you're feeling - you should do it and not care what people think about you. So yeah. Go for it, post the results.

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Well you're jumping to all kinds of conclusions there about me. Society is not going to undo thousands of years of evolution just because you want. As I said, that would be like HAES, like trying to convince someone a 400lb obese woman is attractive. It's just not going to happen. Ever. You might convince yourself that being vulnerable and soft is good, but you'll never convince society because it's not a societal issue.

I'm not bitter, not sure where you came up with that. I don't mind if you have differing views, it's normal. But to tell men to be vulnerable is bad advice. That's where I feel irritated. I have two friends who have taken that advice and neither have had a girlfriend despite being 30 and 35 respectively. Because they wear their heart on their sleeves. They're upbeat and positive but displays no stoicism, and all the vulnerability. You should feel sorry for them. I certainly do. Society, as in people like yourself, have told him to act like that for success, and they have been met with none.

Don't feel sorry for me, everything is rosy in my life. I just wish I could help other people.

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It is explicitly an ad hominem because it's an attack on my character. Instead of engaging with my ideas, you suggested an insulting conclusion about me, personally. That's an ad hominem.

"Fragility", "toxic" and gendered language such as "male tears" and "mansplaining" are have negative connotations. Calling someone 'fragile' is not a considerate thing to do.

Moreover, I didn't say it had an "agenda"; I said it was inconsiderate. So now we have strawman in addition to ad hominem.

Evenmoreoever, I in no way made the conversation about me. I was speaking generally about the social and emotional implications, without bringing any pain I may or may not have experienced into the discussion. How is that victimization?

Evenmoresoover, how can people talk about the emotional implications of a social narrative if they're going to be accused of wanting to be victimized? Isn't that one of the core truths of the social justice movement, that we should listen, that we have conversations, and that we shouldn't belittle the emotional reality of other people?

Given all this, I strongly suspected you started with "he wants to be a victim" and rationalized backwards from there.

If you want to have a civil discussion about highly contentious issues, if you're willing to see me as another human being who, like you, grapples with complex and emotional issues, rather than as an enemy you must defeat, I'm willing to engage with you. Until then, though, I strongly recommend that you consider your approach and be a little more, yes, considerate.

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My issue with toxic masculinity is fourfold

There’s never any talk of positive masculinity so it infers that all masculinity is toxic.
it blames men for men holding back emotions and being ‘tough’ and ignores the evidence of when men do open up and get told to shut up and how society not masculinity expects men to be tough. I’m of the opinion that men would open up more if society had the same level of empathy and concern and support services for men as it does for women.
There’s the problem of how feminists and some women react when men do open up. “Masculinity so fragile” is a phrase used when men express emotions that feminists don’t want to hear as well as drinking mugs with “Male tears”. So basically opening up emotional is only good if it’s the right emotions and doesn’t become inconvenient for women
It’s often misused to apply to anything men do that Feminists don’t like. Outside of he definition
Men express themselves differently than women. So showing emotions to people isn’t necessarily men’s way of dealing with things

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A group of sad and frustrated men suffering from poor social skills so hounded by people who hate them that they weren't even allowed to keep their sub? That's who you want to pick on?

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Incredibly disappointed to see the general acceptance of “toxic masculinity” as a concept on this sub

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 43 points44 points45 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]PessimistIdealist1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

why is it being brigaded? did it end up on /r/all?

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Now this is how you host an open discussion on issues that go against the SJW narrative. Open minded discussion without banning (T_D, pay attention); good for you guys, I look forward to reading some of these to challenge my own perspectives.

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This is a gross oversimplification of larger issues. It's not as though these boys need more or less masculinity in their lives. It's that they may be getting it from other subpar sources.

Society, at present, communicates the idea that children should grow up to be more like the adults of their own gender than the adults of the opposite gender. You could say this is a good thing, or that it's bad. Either way, a male child in a single mother household is going to look to other role models for notions of what a 'man' is. Single mothers may be more likely to expose their boys to subpar masculine models (dude on the street corner, irresponsible celebrities, etc.). Or, there may be a representation bias whereby aggressive and criminal men are the ones we know came from single-mother homes whereas we never hear about the success stories.

It's not a matter of degree of masculinity (more or less, positive thing or negative), it's a matter of what that masculinity means in context. Does it mean aggression and criminality? Or does it mean moral fortitude and responsibility. Y'all remember that karate mentorship video? I loved seeing that redefinition of masculinity to include crying.

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[+]memeirlguy12 8 years ago* [recovered] (42 children) | Copy Link

For anyone who never understood the concept of toxic masculinity, I really recommend "The Mask of Masculinity" by Lewis Howes. It's not about man hating, it's about behaviors that basically act like a prison. E.g. it explains why some people always talk about their money, possessions, etc. or why some other people just have to be the best athletes. (spoiler: they often got bullied)

Edit: Another example that gets discussed in detail is the "Joker Mask", with the case of Robbin Williams. Lewis basically explains why so many comedians are actually sad enough internally to commit suicide. They hide behind comedy to forget their own issues.

It's one of the best books I've listened to, changed my life in a lot of ways.

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At least in the book I mentioned, the term only refers to a part of behaviors, often those that the affected people only do because of societal pressure. It by no means refers to everything masculine, just like "red cars suck" doesn't mean "all cars suck".

EDIT: Also, the author mostly focuses on the concept of masks, and only connects it to this term in a brief (maybe 5 minutes) section.

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Because e.g. people expect men not to cry, ever. You should definitely read/hear the book.

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[+]HugeMongo 8 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

I see this sub has been taken over by /r/ MensLib

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Then why are you defending them by saying "No one is saying masculinity is toxic"

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[–]IShouldBeGradingNow 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Male traits can be amazing directed in the right way.

That’s true. But the term “toxic masculinity” isn’t referring to directing male traits in the right way. It refers to a specific way of interpreting masculinity that hurts men. For instance, men are more likely to commit suicide, partially because they choose more direct methods than women, but primarily because a lot of men view it as “weak” to confide in other men. Many men aren’t comfortable expressing negative emotions other than anger, so they bottle their sadness up and let it eat them from within.

And traditional masculinity is very much a double edged sword:

Assertiveness (a traditionally masculine trait) in the workplace has the ability to push your career forward, but trying to be dominant in the workplace can push people away.
Knowing when to be strong and how to hold yourself together during difficult times is important, but refusing to ever share your pain with another person hinders relationships.
Being protective of your partner and wanting the best for them is essential to a healthy relationship, but being jealous and controlling can potentially cross the line into abuse.
Knowing how to defend yourself is useful, and standing up for yourself is important, but reacting to every dispute with anger and aggressiveness is unnecessary.
Preparing your children to deal with a world that isn’t always kind will serve them well in the long run, but telling your son to “toughen up” when he’s in genuine pain (emotional or physical) only perpetuates a toxic cycle.
Boys wanting to run and chase each other on the playground is fine, but making fun of a boy who would rather sit and read or would rather play with the girls can quickly turn into bullying.

Being male and embracing stereotypically male traits is fine. The concept of “toxic masculinity” isn’t referring to those traits. Toxic masculinity refers to taking typically male traits to extremes and applying them in ways that hurt yourself or other people. Toxic masculinity refers to degrading other men when they don’t conform to specific masculine ideals. I understand that the name can be off-putting, but the word “toxic” is not being used as an adjective for masculinity in general, but to specify a set of harmful behaviors which fall under the larger umbrella of traditional masculinity.

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[–]IShouldBeGradingNow 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Bitchiness, cattiness, and cliques. Girl on girl bullying has been a recognized issue for years, we just don’t refer to it in the same terminology. It’s also worth pointing out that it’s less of an issue now than in the past, because the definition of what it means to be a “real woman” has broadened significantly. But in the past, it was common for girls to also be raised with a very specific notion of how women were expected to behave, speak, and dress. Girls were guided towards specific careers, or away from the workforce entirely. There are still vestiges of that attitude, obviously, primarily in conservative areas/families, but feminism getting into the mainstream has helped quite a bit.

However, societal notions of what it means to be feminine have changed a lot. For instance, it’s less common for parents to be outraged that their daughter wants to be a firefighter than for parents to be upset about their sons wanting to be a ballerina. Girls get to wear pants now (as recently as the 50’s, my grandmother had to wear skirts to school), but a boy in a dress would likely be out of dress code. A girl trying out for her school’s football team and making the cut would be applauded, but the one male cheerleader at school gets called gay. We haven’t yet successfully expanded the definition of a “real man” the same way. Hopefully men’s rights movements will make some progress on that front in the coming years at reducing that stigma.

And that’s where I have to disagree with your first sentence a bit. Toxic masculinity isn’t just men hurting men in a general sense. The motivation is what matters. A man mugging you on the street would probably not be an example of toxic masculinity. A man shoving you into a locker for wearing nail polish probably would be. It specifically refers to behaviors that stem from a limited view of what it means to be a man, and forcing those views on others in a harmful way.

[–]Stephen1985 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IShouldBeGradingNow6 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes I would. Moreso with the old-fashioned views of femininity than the feminists, specifically because that’s a better analog for toxic masculinity (punishing men for not upholding old-fashioned views of maleness). That’s why feminism has made such a push to break down traditional ideas of what it means to be a real woman; forcing people into behaviors and attitudes associated with traditional gender roles can be toxic regardless of gender.

It’s just that the effects of toxic femininity gets described using different terms. A boy who bullies another boy for watching Gossip Girl is an asshole, whereas a girl who bullies another girl for not being pretty enough is catty/bitchy. The defining feature is the motivation. If the behavior stems from an unhealthy perception of gender roles, then it’s not just being an asshole/bitch, it’s being an asshole/bitch because of toxic masculinity/femininity.

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what you resist, will persist, instead of fighting the use of the term, try redefining it.

thats the only way to win this fight my brother.

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[+]WORD_559 8 years ago* [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

This isn't entirely true. I'm male and a feminist -- I believe men and women should have equal rights. In everything. You seem to be referring the militant, SJW-brand of "feminism" where every problem is blamed on a bias towards men and the solution is to reverse the bias and make women have more rights than men. That's just misandry, not feminism.

EDIT: TL;DR for this thread - used the definition of feminism rather than what actually happens to define my political views. MRAs now hate me. Guess I'm not a feminist then. I just hate everyone equally, regardless of sex.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]WORD_559-3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The definition of feminism from Google is:

"The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

From Wikipedia:

"Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes."

True feminism is not about hating men. Feminism is about pulling women's rights forward to be equal to those of a man. For example, giving women the vote; what does this have to do with making women more powerful than men? That's feminism. How about preventing women in the Middle East from being arrested for refusing to wear a burka?

In the first world, feminism is becoming misandry. I don't deny that, but that's not what real feminism is, and I will always label anything advocating those views as misandry, not feminism. They are not the same thing.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics6 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The definition of feminism from Google is:

Not borne out by their actions.

Republicans only want small government and balanced budgets. On paper.

True feminism is not about hating men.

And there's not a true Scotsman in all of the United Kingdom.

Feminism is about pulling women's rights forward to be equal to those of a man.

Well the have all the rights men have and then some in the modern world.

Yet they're still pushing.

For example, giving women the vote; what does this have to do with making women more powerful than men? That's feminism.

Maybe pick one from the modern era?

How about preventing women in the Middle East from being arrested for refusing to wear a burka?

Maybe pick one from the West?

Feminism is fine. In the 1800s or the third world.

What is it doing it the modern West?

In the first world, feminism is becoming misandry.

Has become.

I don't deny that, but that's not what real feminism is, and I will always label anything advocating those views as misandry, not feminism. They are not the same thing.

It's a social movement. It isn't defined by a book. It's defined by it's members.

Christianity isn't "the Bible" and literally nothing else.

[–]WORD_559-1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics7 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]-3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think that I'm going to throw away my account by posting here, thereby automatically banning myself from several subs.

I'm a feminist. I do not agree with men's rights movements. Domestic violence intervention is built on a core principle of feminism. There is a significant subset of men who are destructive due to patriarchy and unhealthy gendered roles. Feminism is a benevolent movement seeking to enforce norms to overcome patriarchy. Given that a significant subset of men believe that harassment and abuse is normal, broadly arresting men by default creates the largest social change to help the most people.

There are two camps of fringe group who aren't what you call 'true' feminists. The first group sincerely vilifies men. The second group disagrees with an aspect of feminism, then struggles to feel better about being a feminist by grossly misrepresenting what the movement aims for.

Whether you happen to belong to the former or latter is irrelevant. You're still not the real voice of what makes for real feminism. The National Organization for Women and the Feminist Majority Foundation are the true feminists and voice for the movement. Both organizations are in support of the duluth model and relevant policies and procedures. You are not so important as to have more valuable opinions than esteemed organizations with decades worth of collective hard work and determination.

By arresting men on default in regards to domestic violence, men can be helped to overcome their toxic bias, while the largest demographic of victims can be protected. Feminism prefers men be arrested by default, while other organizations do not. Pick one. Are you a feminist or are you something else?

Do you disagree with the duluth model? Yes? Then you're not in alignment with the real voice of feminism.

Although I personally and professionally disagree with the duluth model, I am not so self-important to believe for a second that my voice is more valuable than the voice of NOW and FMF. So why do you think your opinions are so much more valuable to society?

[–]ChiefBobKelso 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Meyright 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

[–]PanderjitSingh 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlmightyZael -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It shouldn't be called feminism if it's about equal rights, bruh. That name implies it pushes an agenda for women ONLY, where equalitarianism implies each should be equal, which they should. Women and men get shit on in different ways in different circumstances, and in no way will having two separate movements (feminism or men's rights) create a world of equality because y'all gonna be too busy arguing over whether or not toxic masculinity is a thing (which it isn't). It boils down to groups being so insecure with themselves that they push the blame onto the opposite sex, where it's a systemic failure somewhere in society that's creating a preferential bias to one sex or another in certain situations.

I'll probably get downvoted for using logic instead of REEEEing, but that just means I'm even more vindicated in my assertions.

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I genuinely believe that you are just misinformed, if you are secure in you're beliefs then you should have no problem seriously considering my argument below.

On one hand we hear that single mothers are amazing

Yes, being positive towards single parents is a good thing. They are inherently disadvantaged compared to two parents families and were historically seen as invalid, they need support.

and such a family structure is just as valid and great for kids as any other

Yes they are valid, no they are not great, they can be, but they're generally not. A single parent family is generally financially disadvantaged and there are less people to help out. This is a systemic issue and therefore not inherently an issue for single parents. To explain this; the method of wealth and labour distribution are two examples of factors dependent on a system, in our system families with less people can provide less labour and produce less wealth. To provide two examples of systemic changes that can alleviate the previously mentioned disadvantages, child benefits and cultures in which extended family help with child care.

and fathers are all violent monsters of little or no use whatsoever.

You're going to have to provide evidence for this claim, I do not believe the people you are describing believe this.

The same types of groups arguing he above then also tell people to check their privilege, one such privilege being having been brought up in a stable home by both your biological parents.

It's hilarious that they don't realise how these statements are so at odds with each other.

You just misunderstand the people you are describing, the fact that something is valid does not imply systematic equality. So to restate, single parents are disadvantaged, this is a systemic issue not related to the validity of the family structure.

[–]Korinthe 15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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That's because (typically) female personality traits, and learning styles, are the default position in schools. They are more conducive to that environment, and its simply getting worse as class sizes continue to grow; pushing even more emphasis on conformity due to educators being stretched so thin inside the classroom.

As I've said, I am a mature student. The reason I decided to return to studying at 30 is because for over a decade prior to this, I worked in primary schools. I've experienced this first hand, not just read about it.

It's even worse in reality; the amount of times I have had to advocate for boys both in the classroom and in the staff room against other colleagues is frankly upsetting.

Boys as young as 6 have already internalised their inferiority to girls based upon an environment which deems them toxic.

We are raising half the population to believe they were born wrong, and I won't stand for it any longer. Hence, I will be trying my best to make a change; once I have this piece of paper which society mandates as a requirement for my opinion to be valid and that I have gone through the process.

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[–]armaadi 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It's not a systemic issue, it's a choice. If you are single and choose to have kids, you can't claim a disadvantage. This is like saying people who quit jobs voluntarily are systemically disadvantaged.

Sure, single moms should be treated with dignity, but then again, everyone should be treated with dignity. The fact is that a double parent household is typically a superior environment to raise kids than a single parent household. Don't blame society on women's choice to have kids out of wedlock.

Sure there are single parent homes that do better than double parent homes, of course, but on average, double parent households lead to better financial security, better developed children and more productive adults later on. Oh, and fewer criminal adults.

Singles moms need to work like a mofo to make sure finances are ok, which means they aren't doing a lot of parenting. Kids who don't have parenting, will get it from other places. A lot of times, those other places are people with less than virtuous intents.

[–]Gezza44-1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not a systemic issue, it's a choice.

You just misunderstand what systemic means, if something is a result of a system rather than individual interactions.

maybe another example resulting from a choice will help you out; A woman chooses to have a child, the fact that labour of pregnancy/childcare is unpaid labour is systemic, since money being paid for working for an employer is a system. The fact that it may cost her her job may or may not be systemic. It has nothing to do with choice, just the nature of whatever causes the issue.

If you are single and choose to have kids, you can't claim a disadvantage. This is like saying people who quit jobs voluntarily are systemically disadvantaged.

Firstly, single parents are often forced into the situation they are in, secondly yes the system we live in is one where you are paid for labour that an employer chooses to recognise. This is a system, the unemployed are disadvantaged from this system.

Sure, single moms should be treated with dignity, but then again, everyone should be treated with dignity.

Cool, delete everything after the second comma and maybe your sexist tone won't be so obvious.

Don't blame society on women's choice to have kids out of wedlock.

Actually fuck you. Not necessarily a choice not necessarily out of wedlock not necessarily women. 100% the result of how society is organised. Again you're just another "men's rights" loser who doesn't give a shit about men but instead just spews their toxic opinions about women. Where did I say women??? I'm talking about single parents buddy.

Singles moms need to work like a mofo to make sure finances are ok, which means they aren't doing a lot of parenting.

Yeah and why is this? Smh.

[–]armaadi2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So if I remove "I treat everyone with dignity" and just leave it as "I treat single moms with dignity", my sexist tone won't be obvious? Are you stupid?

unpaid labour bullshit

Yeah, yeah you are stupid. Why would someone pay you to have kids and care for them? That's just being a parent. Same with chores around the house. You don't bring any value to anyone, so why would you get paid? That's such a stupid notion. No one pays me to clean my house and I don't expect anyone to.

single parents forced

What? How? Most parents voluntarily have sex and voluntarily go through pregnancy. Who is forcing them? Seriously, name the specific people and/or organizations and I'll fight them with you. If not, this is just nonsense.

unemployed are disadvantaged

Yes, if you don't have a job, you are contributing to society and won't receive a paycheck. Why is this a problem?

men's rights loser

And you are just another moronic feminist spewing forth "unpaid labor" and "women apparently don't have agency" garbage while dumping on men; you don't give a shit about women. You see, I can male up bullshit, too!

why is this?

There's only 24 hours in a day, fool. 8 hours to work 6-8 hours to sleep, few hours for housework, travel etc doesn't leave a lot of time to parent and even less time if you have a second job. It's not the "system", it's common sense. 2 parent households do loads better because they can split the burden. Single parents in any time have it harder than 2 parent households.

fuck you

Fuck you back. You dismiss women's agency and choices, accuse me of just being anti women and then call me sexist. Ok. Why don't you take a nice long look in a mirror.

[–]misophonation-4 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]armaadi1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Looking down at your phone while driving is also an honest mistake, but that doesn't absolve you from the consequences should something happen while your eyes aren't on the road. Just like you aren't immune to consequences should you have unprotected sex.

I'm not saying kids are a punishment, though. Kids are awesome, but they are a time and money sink. If you don't have the time and money to invest in a kid, you should be really careful with who you sleep with and making sure you are safe from pregnancy. I refuse to believe all the out of wedlock mothers are displaying responsibility with their partner choices and fertility.

You aren't oppressed because you have a kid. You aren't oppressed if you leave your partner or your partner leaves you. You aren't oppressed if your partner dies.

[–]misophonation2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know, it's funny, my husband's father had been previously tested as completely infertile, AND his mother had an IUD... surprise!

I'm personally childfree, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I do believe that physical law is ultimately deterministic, so people should not be held morally responsible for their actions (even if they are factually responsible for those actions in that their bodies performed them). I practice universal forgiveness for that reason, up to and including toward my father's murderer.

And while I realize that's not typical, at least most people in America profess to be Christian, so I think maybe they should consider being more forgiving and compassionate toward single parents (regardless of how they became single parents) and everyone else, too, for that reason. Unsure if that applies to you, but even if not, I can recommend forgiveness just for one's own psychological well being. It's pleasant not to hold a grudge against individuals or classes of people all the time. Anyway, this went beyond the scope of the original comment: I was just trying to say that most people don't intend to become single parents, and that remains true. I wish you well.

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And not weak men either. Our children and society need confident, strong, and goal oriented men.

Maybe a controversial topic right now, but the clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson really is an amazing individual to follow on the topic of masculinity. But not just for topics like masculinity and how to be a better man, he also talks about being a healthier PERSON mentally. A lot of what he talks about is a paradigm shift in our thinking/belief system society pushes on men/ourselves in order to build better characters.

Honestly? his YouTube videos and podcast he’s featured on are great to listen to. They are positive, encouraging, and intelligently designed.

Sure there are behaviors that some people put into a category of being “toxic character parading as masculinity” and misunderstandings of what a man should be, but the movement has turned into a man hating witch hunt.

It has turned men into second class citizens. It’s outright wrong and with an outright political agenda basis. Makes me sick. Do NOT let this changing world undermine you as not just a man, but an an individual.

I believe it is also the duty of us women to encourage better men. Stronger men. Loving and supporting, family oriented men.

I take what I have learned from this sub, from JP, and from other places to gauge my everyday interactions with my future husband. I’ve seen his character build JUST by my attitude and encouragement towards him. And, I hope one day we have sons so that I can teach them to be better men as well.

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Competition is toxic?

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This just betrays the fact that she (and probably OP) doesn't know that toxic masculinity is, or just ignores its real meaning.

What's funny is that if you people really cared about men's rights, you would've been all over toxic masculinity as a societal phenomenon. Societal pressure to behave in a specific way, to ignore your feelings until you want to commit suicide because you don't want to open up to anyone (it's not manly, real men don't cry or care), to act against your own interests just because people around you will think that "you're not a real man"? It sounds like exactly the thing MRAs should stand against.

But no, let's stop at the name and ignore the concept itself. It's probably just feminists trying to tell everyone that men are toxic by default, no need to actually look into it.

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[–]princezenon-10 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Have you ever actually seen someone use the term in an academic setting? Or at all when it wasn't being brought up by someone foaming at the mouth in anti-SJW rage? This is stuff you learn day 1 if you ever take a gender studies class. The definition is pretty constant and a lot of times even specifically mentions that it is a concept that is most harmful to men. I don't think for a second that your perception of it is based on anything other than tumblr screenshots and how you hear people use it to attack men.

Five seconds of Google: "It refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth"

"The concept of toxic masculinity is not intended to demonize men or male attributes, but rather to emphasize the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition."

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I don't deny they're different, but the original ones are dead for decades. That's why I brought up the senator example. It's just that I'm wondering why you think it's necessary in this sub to signal that you definitely aren't against the old feminism. You're defending yourself out of some reason.

"original feminists" don't exist anymore. They can not exist – their goals are reached, equality by law is established for decades. What would they want to fight for any longer? Women's rights in muslim countries maybe.

So stop the virtue signaling. No woman who calls herself a "traditional feminist" anymore, there's no need for that in a western country. Reasonable people would just say they like "equal rights", not the one way street.

edit:

Beside that... the "second wave feminists", at least in Germany, already claimed the modern crazy things like bras being sexist, men penetrating women being sexist and the natural healthy state for women would be living in lesbian relationships.

So if the third wave and the second wave is crazy the air for "good feminism" is getting thin.

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In the many discussions I've had around toxic masculinity, it's defined as it's own kind of masculinity. If people are saying "Toxic masculinity" as in all masculinity is toxic those people need to jump off a bridge.

I do think there is a lot of merit to the term (There are ways that masculinity presents itself that can be harmful to people), but to imply that all masculinity is Toxic wholly unhelpful and should be immediately refuted.

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i always thought that toxic masculinity was a phrase used to describe over the top macho "men don't cry" types.

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This person is either misinformed or purposefully obtuse.

Often times men struggle more with suicide and depression because we're societally conditioned to be less open and emotionally vulnerable with our other male friends, or even other people in general. The "masculine ideal" is to be stoic and independent without needing to rely on help (especially emotional help), and you don't have to look very far to find people who still think that it's unmanly to cry or see a therapist.

If there is an aspect of masculinity that is actively hurting people and contributing to the overall societal problems that men face, is it not accurate to describe it as "toxic"?

There are other examples that I could give to highlight this person's misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity means, but I feel like this demonstrates my point most accurately.

Nobody other than fringe idiots actually thinks that masculinity is inherently toxic, just that some parts of our current masculine ideal are harmful.

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Toxic masculinity

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and sociology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.

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I am on phone now, so I can not scientific sources now. But I would think the depression and criminality is caused by their socio-economic status, rather than the lack of a male role model.

I don't know the exact data, but I do know the situation in the Netherlands. Here is a large group of people with Suriname heritage. In that group there are more teen-pregnancies and more single mothers. A lot of girls who get pregnant end up single. The Suriname community is part of the group with lower socio-economic status. So now you have a group of women with little money, whose family also can't support them well. These women can not go to school or choose a less demanding education to have more time to care for their child. They also don't work full-time for the same reason.

So the child can not go to a great school (in the Netherlands often still decent, but not great). The kid also grows up in a neighborhood where there is more crime and poorness (can not think of the right word now). So the kid now becomes older and has not received good enough education to be able to go to university, even if he would have been smart enough. So he stays in the same socio-economic "class". He has money problems and can barely make ends meet. And if he can't find work he is more prone to commit a crime, like robbery.

I am not saying that not having a present father is okay, but I think in the post not the whole picture is considered.

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Title	Toxic Masculinity
Author	JohnKimble111
Upvotes	5904
Comments	867
Date	March 10, 2018 5:06 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/83d4wp/toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity.904623 https://theredarchive.com/post/904623

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