Very fucking equal | PurplePillDebate

Treacle-Flimsy · 2023-06-15T16:53:38+00:00

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Firstly, I agree with your first point entirely, I just don’t see how that correlates here. Women can be raped and sent to war, but the point of his analogy was that women face rape more and men face war more.

It doesn’t really matter whose fault it is. If I get sent to fight in Ukraine, and a Russian soldier is about to stab me, should I just say “Um actually sweetie, the patriarchy is only forcing you to fight against your will. If you all just stopped listening to men, you wouldn’t have to kill me right now.”? Like, yes, the people who historically enforced conscription were men. So… so what?

Additionally, if you're quoting Marjorie Taylor Greene then you've already lost the argument lmao. That woman is unhinged.

You said men force men to be conscripted. Here we see a woman enforcing our sexist and discriminatory policy when House Democrats (mostly men) wanted to try and expand it to be an egalitarian system. And I’ve lost the argument because I’m showing you an example of a woman enforcing conscription onto men? It seems to me you just don’t like what I showed you.

It doesn’t matter if she’s unhinged. What matters is that she’s a woman in power keeping men being conscripted and women at home. It is absolutely not men sending men to war. It’s just an excuse you made up to feel like you have a moral high ground.

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I’m arguing on the original post in two threads.

Also this thread in particular is about rape specifically.

Oh also being burned alive is the worst pain you can process. There’s probably something that hurts more, but we don’t have enough nerves to feel more. Your nerves will be burned off and you won’t be able to feel any sensation if you survive. It will literally be the last thing you feel.

I’d rather have sex with some crusty guy then go through that. I have to ask, would you genuinely rather go through all that instead of be raped? Or are you just saying it in bad faith because you know my point was gonna be that you’d select rape over Saw? Why, anyway? Not as a personal attack and if you don’t wanna get into it it’s fine. Just, why do you fear rape more than having your limbs cut off?

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Eh I said what I’m saying already.. That twisted question setup is old school drool.. And I can play the same bad faith game too.

So what you’re saying is.. All rape is worse than being kidnapped from your family at early youth and then tortured to death and cannibalized? Even statutory rape where technically both parties consented but one is not legally allowed to consent. Or worse than cancer patient diagnoses?

Men are rape survivors too and not just by other men but by women too. Women molesting male children and such albeit rare and even those victims are highly unlikely to admit it being the worst thing a human can endure though it can be quite traumatic.

I feel like most can agree that rape is on the bad spectrum and can suck. But making it sound like it’s worse than death itself is rather on the absurdity spectrum is the purpose..

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I honestly think it does. It's my personal belief, you have no right to tell me how to feel about it.

I never said anything about misogyny dude. Being raped has the same psychological effects no matter if you pee standing up or standing down.

I have met male victims who suffered as much as I did, and I'm sure that's worse than being drafted. Worse cade scenario you can literally kill yourself. I would rather gulp down 2 buckets of straight chlorine than having to go through that again. I'm not sure how I was not clear. I think it's worse, these are my feelings, if you don't share them it's fine, but don't treat yours like some universal truth.

Most men will never be sent to war lmao. And they can get out of it pretty easily too. So many men glamorize war anyway. If it would be so bad, people would just not fight. If those men have the time to steal the pigs from the villages they fuck up, kidnap virgins and fuck infants, then surviving must not be such a daunting task. If literally everyone dropped their fire arms there would be 0 issues.

Glad we agree on this. Then stop telling me that war is the biggest atrocity when in my pov its absolutely not.

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Okay I’ll respond in order of stanzas.

Okay that’s fair.
Yes you did. https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/14a7fgr/very_fucking_equal/jo9p9c9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
I’m telling you how I feel and you’re telling me how you feel. That’s all there is to it.
Most men will never be sent to war just like most women will never be raped. What’s your point? It doesn’t make it okay. If you believe men can get out of war pretty easily, why is the entire Ukrainian male population still in Ukraine, and why has Russia begun sending 14 year-olds (males only) to boot camp? They’re out of manpower because they sent all their men to die already. Those men don’t have the time to do anything you listed off because they’re fucking teenagers sitting in a trench praying an artillery shell doesn’t hit them - and if it does, praying it kills them quickly. Do you actually know enough about warfare to be discussing this? I’m asking this sincerely, not as a straw man or ad hominem or any other fancy way. If everyone dropped their weapons, we’d just see a situation like what happened to the Russians in 1917 after Trotsky said “If we don’t fight them, they’ll probably just stop advancing.” Sure, it’d be great, but it’s not gonna happen. Just like universal health care in America.
You made a comment claiming you’d rather go to war than be raped. If you didn’t want me to argue with you about it, you shouldn’t have made such a reply on purge week in the comments of a video showcasing the abominations of trench warfare.

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I’ve admitted it’s the men causing the wars. But just because a man causes a war, it doesn’t make it okay for innocent young men to be sent against their will to fight. Personally I think, similarly to “Ich Bin Soldat,” conscripts should unite, march home, and overthrow their leaders who send them to kill strangers they’ve never met.

Men went to war in World War One because of the choices of other men? Okay. How about the Falkland War? Did British men deserve to die because a woman wanted to take an island in the middle of nowhere? Shouldn’t Thatcher have sent women if she was the one waging war?

This shouldn’t be a gendered issue. Women shouldn’t send women to war against their will. Men shouldn’t send men to war against their will. Nobody should send anyone to war against their will.

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Don’t listen to him, he’s just a troll. I’m very sorry for what happened to you. It’s definitely a valid opinion.

Hell, some people choose death over living an “on paper” decent life just because they can’t stand the mental illness. I almost did.

But I don’t think you should speak on behalf of most rape victims (i don’t think—and I hope—no one has seriously polled them on this question before). It’s definitely a horrible act but idk if it can be compared to death. It’s probably more comparable to having a sudden, traumatic, and physically painful near-death experience.

No one alive has experienced death; when most suicide survivors face the threat of dying most of them (who survived) reported that they regretted starting the suicide attempt—they didn’t actually want to die. Of course this sample is biased but a lot of people who aren’t afraid of death are terrified once they are actually dying.

I just think this whole idea of “I would rather experience x than y,” is dumb especially if you only experienced one. It’s pointless to compare them and rank one trauma over another. Everyone experiences it differently, the same event can cause one person to be hurt but eventually move on or it could cause someone else to kill themselves.

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Ever heard of game theory? If an aggressive and cooperative person play, the worst outcome for the cooperative person is to play cooperative and get taken advantage of. So they both have to be aggressive and both lose.

However if two cooperative people play, they can cooperate and the outcome is better for each, even better than the outcome for the aggressive person above.

Women ruling in a world dominated by men are the cooperative player in an aggressive game. They have to be aggressive otherwise they get taken advantage of. Especially when they're already perceived as weak by misogynistic rivals. So I wouldn't expect to see widespread results until a critical mass of decision makers are women, who have been proven to be less aggressive and allow anger to dominante less of their decision making than men do.

I'd also note that we have more female leaders today than at any time in history (though still a sharp minority) and similarly have fewer widespread violent international conflicts than any time in history. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not

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Feminists love to misrepresent the history of voting rights. At the time of the first U.S. election only 6% of the population could vote, some of which were in fact women. In fact, there are recorded instances of women voting in colonial America. However, the vast majority of both men and women were ineligible to vote in early America.

Many states had already passed equal voting rights legislation prior to the passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920. The idea no women could vote prior to 1920, and most men could vote throughout history is simply an agenda driven misrepresentation of voting rights. Certainly, women’s voting rights tended to lag a bit behind men’s but it simply wasn’t this all men vs no women could vote that it’s often painted to be.

Prior to the 19th amendment, there was no universal law denying women the right to vote and the 19th amendment doesn’t guarantee women a right to vote, it simply makes it illegal to grant or deny voting rights in the basis of sex. It states:

“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.”

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Let’s break this down piece by piece.

Shit not popping off is not the point. The point is you are not signed up to the selective service. That’s the point. We’re talking about being equal correct? That’s what this thread is about, men and women are not equal when it comes to status because men have to sign up for the SS or face legal penalties while women do not. That is not equal, do you understand?

I thank your husband and all his comrades for his service.

Think about that for a second, you literally didn’t do Jack shit but marry a great American that did do great things and you somehow think his great service is a reflection of you, lmfao. Your husband and you are two different people argue on your on merits don’t try and steal his valor in order to make yourself look better, absolutely shameless. At least I had the wherewithal and class to be transparent about my service and not try and leech of somebody else’s when I didn’t even serve.

Imagine I marry Serena Williams and think that I can talk shit to other people about tennis even though I’ve never played and am probably trash, you’re a clown.

[–]Stunning-Potato-19841 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wacko_angry2 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Stop talking about your husband he has nothing to do with this conversation. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again women have no honor, his service is not your service. I understand why you do it though, it’s because without your husband you’re completely worthless because you have no achievements of your own to reference, so you have to leech off someone else’s.

Thank you for proving my point and vindicating me.

Now that you know you lost the equality portion by not addressing anything in my second paragraph. You need to shift this discussion into an emotional frame work by attacking my service. I’m not ashamed of not seeing combat less than 10% of the military does. There’s men who’ve been Navy SEALs and never saw combat and there dudes who were cooks that got a CAB both of them have a role to play.

Of course you don’t think your husbands a douche you’re a woman you’d rather live in comfortable lie than uncomfortable reality. The reason you think I’m a douche is because of how inadequate and stupid I’ve made you feel.

You’ve always lived in this fantasy land, where no man challenged your worldview until right now. It pissed you off to know that I’m right and you’re wrong. You cannot counter the fact that women have the right to vote but never have entertain the thought of fighting for it. You assuage your ego by saying ‘it’s a tiny probability’ in order to not face the fact that means men and women are not equal.

People like you are just the worst, the “have my cake and eat it to” mentality.

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No, that’s not what this discussion is about. The overarching theme is about equality. Look at the tile of the thread. The OP, wanted to point out the irony of women wanting equality but only where it benefits them.

This then extended to people talking about the draft. Which then led to our argument, that you proceeded to lose.

The point isn’t about who should/shouldn’t vote, the point is that men and women are supposed equals but women due to them not having to sign up for the draft makes us unequal.

My frustration comes from women like you who treat equality like a buffet, where you pick and choose what benefits you and skirt the parts that don’t.

One those is having to sign up for the draft, instead of being like ‘yeah that’s bullshit, I’m just as capable as a man, I should be allowed to fight for my right to vote to!’ Women in a nutshell: They want the Authority of man They want the privileges of women And the accountability and consequences children experience.

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Men don't declare war, the ruling class does

They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and to have yourselves slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people.

And here let me emphasize the fact—and it cannot be repeated too often—that the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish the corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace

Yours is not to reason why, yours but to do and die

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Feminism has never been helpful, all it’s done is made more delusional wahmen.

You are prime example of this, you just live in your little world thinking that men and women are equal when we are not. Men categorically have a monopoly on violence, which makes us the superior (ie ruler) in the human intersexual dynamic.

The military is not equal, men have to do more push ups, run faster, carry heavier loads, etc compared to the women. The army recently shifted their PT standards so they were more ‘gender neutral’ in order to appease the wahmen. Funny thing about that ‘gender neutral’ standard is that if you standardized it to men, the requirements would become more difficult because your shifting the standard higher by default to the more physically dominant sex. It’s like playing football, on one team you were a superstar for scoring 10 goals in a season, on another more elite team you don’t even make it off the bench.

Women are not men’s equal, I don’t know why y’all think y’all are. But y’all interpret that as oppression, children are not my equal, are they oppressed they just can’t do the things a grown man can and so we treat them accordingly. Same should be done with wahmen.

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Yes I am sexist, reality is sexist. There’s a reason for women and children first. Women are the vulnerable sex, men are the sacrificial sex.

I’m saying women can’t have their cake and eat it to. If women are equal they should have to sign up for the SS, men face legal penalties for not signing so women should face the same.

I’m not saying women shouldn’t be protected under the law, but certain rights come with responsibilities and voting is one of them for men at least. I also think women should be allowed in the military just not in primary combat roles.

It’s always so fascinating to watch women squirm at the thought of signing for the draft. ‘We’ll take the benefits, but none of the sacrifices’

They call it Schrödinger’s feminist, women are equal, strong, and independent as well as vulnerable, victims, capable of no agency when it suits them.

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Where there women who worked in Coal Mines, yes. Does that mean a majority of women worked in Coal Mines or even wanted too, No.

I wish we could re-incarnate 1000 women from that time and question them. I guarantee you 99% of them would not want to work in coal mines and prefer to watch the kids at home. But that's the internalized misogyny right? Totatally not the fact that it was extremely hard labour and staying at home and watching the kids was the much better option at the time.

If women where so eager to work in the coal mines, why didn't the feminist movement for equal rights pick up then? Why did it pick up traction in the 1970s when most jobs women entered where sitting at a desk? Why did women not fight for the right to be in the draft?

No one can definitively say whether women were forced to stay at home or not. I'm sure there where some women who wanted too. But it's far more logical to think that a majority of women did not want to work in coal mines and preferred staying at home..... Than men forcing women to not working coal mines.

Your claims that women were too lazy to do any dangerous or hard work is a lie.

Women have the rights now. Why do women in a large majority pick white collar jobs? Where are the droves of women construction workers, electricians, plumbers, fire fighters, military. Don't give me some bullshit minorty arguement again.

Let me guess the patriarchy forces women to work in nice AC offices. If it wasn't for the patriarchy droves women would be digging up water lines in the heat! LMAO

How long are we gonna let dumb fucks like this dictate our society?

[–]badgersonice 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Does that mean a majority of women worked in Coal

The majority of men never worked in coal either. The majority of men and women through most of history were farmers. Yet unsurprisingly, men like you deny those women did anything of value other than birthing out boy children.

I guarantee you 99% of them would not want to work in coal mines and prefer to watch the kids at home.

I guarantee most men didn’t want to work in deadly coal mines either. Poor people worked hard dangerous jobs because they had to, not because they were nobly sacrificing themselves to serve the other gender out of charity, like you seem to believe . Like seriously, your idea that men worked these jobs to serve the female gender is stupid. They worked these horrible jobs because they had to make money, the same way women did what they had to and were able to.

But that's the internalized misogyny right?

Look at that, a shitty strawman argument I didn’t make. Try to stay on topic instead of ranting out random shit other people said, tiger.

If women where so eager to work in the coal mines,

If men were so eager to work in coal mines, then why are you complaining and demanding praise for it? They were “eager”, as you put it.

And lol, you didn’t work in the mines any more than I did— you deserve exactly as much praise for men who worked in the mines as the women you’re bitching about do: none.

Why did women not fight for the right to be in the draft?

First, there has not been a draft since Vietnam

And second, some did, while others fought against it. Women aren’t a monolith, remember? Women are not required to sign up for selective service today because the equal rights amendment as well as other legislative pushes for it were all defeated. As it turns out lots of men and women oppose it, in part based on women’s pathetically weak and useless bodies. Women, if you weren’t aware, aren’t actually male, and really are genuinely less talented at violence. They would be a waste of resources and time and training in general infantry.

In addition… we haven’t been fighting wars lately where the draft is useful. The US has a volunteer military now.

Than men forcing women to not working coal mines.

This is actually stupid. If no women worked in coal mines, they wouldn’t have made a law outlawing it. You yourself acknowledged the fact that some women actually did work in the mines— but now you’re pretending they didn’t to make false claims based on your naive logic.

And your logic doesn’t check out here. Sure, it may sound logical to assume that women didn’t work in mines and they all sat at home and are bonbons all day while their men slaved away for them, or whatever stupid shit you want to believe— but that’s not factually what happened. Women were actually factually forced out of the work through legislation, regardless of how “logical” you think it is that history didn’t happen the way it did. If your logic doesn’t agree with the facts, then that means you need to re-examine your logic and your base assumptions.

Why do women in a large majority pick white collar jobs?

Because women are physically weaker than men, have statistically different interests, are often intimidated by the prospect of working in a predominantly male environment, and often are not welcome anyways. And because a lot of those jobs are being outsourced and in decline anyways. Besides, most men don’t want women there either.

Hell, some men don’t want women in those jobs even though they sit on their ass all day in front of a screen because they want to tell themselves that men are important and women are worthless, and want the absence of women in physical labor jobs to be proof of their sick beliefs.

Where are the droves of women construction workers, electricians, plumbers, fire fighters, military.

Where are the droves of men who actually want women in these jobs as anything other than revenge for… I guess existing as something other than a glorious man? If women worked those jobs, then dweebs like you couldn’t have a chip on your shoulder to bitch about women being evil for not killing themselves doing jobs they’re often not physically capable of— it would be quite the tragedy for guys like you, even though you’re sitting on your ass doing air conditioned make-work too.

Let me guess the patriarchy forces women to work in nice AC offices.

No. The modern US is not a patriarchy.

If it wasn't for the patriarchy droves women would be digging up water lines in the heat!

But then what explains why noodle-armed fat couch potato redditors aren’t doing those jobs? Is your patriarchy holding them back while demanding praise for doing work they never did too?

[–]AdultHumanMaleXY 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The majority of men never worked in coal either. The majority of men and women through most of history were farmers. Yet unsurprisingly, men like you deny those women did anything of value other than birthing out boy children.

A shortcut to short-circuiting any reader's braincells and to make them stop reading is by making stupid ass claims like this.

Medieval women only tended to farming during the busiest seasons of the year, and they did it alongside their husband, it wasn't a full time job.

Literally the most popular job taken up by woman at the time (late middle-ages) was cloth spinning, in addition to domestic labouring.

Now, after the industrial revolution, which is the time period the person you were speaking with was actually referring to (before you strawmanned him about "most of history") women primarily handled domestic labour, that's it.

Everything I just stated above is a conclusive fact that historians have reached, feel free to disagree.

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What benefit of being a woman? And please for the love of fuck don't say can get sex anytime they want.

Sex is just the tip of the ice berg

Pussy runs the world. Women are born with something men are hard wired to crave. It's like your walking talking vile of heroin and men are the addicts.

A average girl can pull up to Miami and be on a millionaires yacht within a week.

A man needs to either buy the yacht or be high enough status to network with the kind of men who have yachts.

This is one advantage. But it's a good summary. Like in chess a queen can move all around the board. But the king can only move 1 space at a time.

Another one is are valued higher than the average man in society. Men were always disposable. Mostly because of your womb. You can re populate fairly quickly with 1 man and 100 women. Not the same for 100 men and 1 women. Due to obvious limitations

Of course there are disadvantages of being a women too. Weaker, less capable, not taken seriously and many more. Plus if your ugly it really does suck.

Our biological purpose is nothing.

This is too long of a debate in which neither of us are qualified enough to argue. Agree to Disagree

If someone wants to have kids, cool. But hard pass because I am not going to live a life I don't want like generations of women before me.

Sure you do you.

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Feminism is the new religion of the left.

And, just like Christians love to say that Atheists "just don't understand Christianity", feminists love to say that anti-feminists "just don't understand feminism".

I guarantee you that I know more about feminist theory than most women, and it fails intellectual rigor time and time again. Most anti-feminists understand feminist theory very, very well.

Feminist scholars conflate theory with fact and silence anyone that disagrees with their unfounded assertions. Once feminist scholars have spoken on a subject, dissent is not allowed.

For example, the idea that we live in a patriarchy in the west is laughably absurd. Women have so much power in so many spheres, but feminists will only every point to reproductive rights (which, by the way, men have ZERO reproductive rights while women have many pre, during and post birth) and the top 1% of CEO's and high ranking government officials. They conveniently leave out all the other spheres of society where the average woman is excelling compared to the average man, I assume because of intellectual bankrupt academics pushing the false narrative that women are still oppressed.

How would someone challenge these ideas in a serious way?

[–]Coolio_Street_RacerTop G Wannabe 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link

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[–]badgersonice 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I just want you dumb fucks to stop saying men oppressed you through history.

“Men were oppressed, so therefor I declare women were not”.

How stupid do you have to be to think only men were oppressed: that peasant women didn’t exist or that women were never affected by war or that women were somehow in charge?

The vast majority of women in history were treated like shit too, but you’re too busy playing oppression Olympics like a bitchy first year feminist to see anything other than pampered princesses (while ignoring their pampered prince counterparts, of course).

Just because women weren’t given weapons when the invading army rolled in doesn’t mean they weren’t oppressed too. and just because women were doing work men wanted them to do, doesn’t mean they were your oppressors.

Lol I don't even hate women. Your just making shit up now.

It’s purge week. You don’t have to be coy.

[–]Coolio_Street_RacerTop G Wannabe 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Please tell me where I said men where oppressed.

Right here. It’s in the construction of the sentence: “stop saying women were oppressed when it was MEN…•

we want you stop saying you were oppressed. When it was MEN getting our limbs blown off...

Generally anytime feminist make the argument men oppressed them. It was equally bad if not worse for the men as well.

Men dying does not mean it is good or right for men to require women to serve them or to deny them equality in society. You also underestimate what affected women— most men in history did not die in war or violence; yet the vast majority of women were still treated inferior the men in their lives by law and by custom. One wrong does not make another wrong right.

It’s genuinely astounding to me that you think women didn’t fight in wars because men didn’t give them guns or that men told them not do work.

Not fighting in the army doesn’t mean women didn’t fight and die in wars anyways— they just didn’t have weapons or commanding officers. When an invading army rolled through , what do you think happened to the women? The invaders raped and murdered them and their children… yet you seem fairly certain they were happily enjoying this experience.

Women always were part of the suffering in every war— the men suffering in wars were also the violent rapists and murderers who took their prize in raping and killing women of the opposite side when they could (and sometimes women on their own side). War is terrible, but you’re a fool ro think women weren’t affected too; remaining home only spared the women on the winning side, just as it rewarded many men on the winning side as well.

In reality it was a little bit of both. Men understanding women are too fragile for those kind of jobs. As well as women being ok with staying at home.

First, many women didn’t stay home, so you’re not being factually accurate. Many women historically travelled with armies, often including the soldiers’ wives and families. Women in the military train prepared food, kept camp, and provided nursing and sewing services. These women did not serve formally in the military so you don’t acknowledge they existed, of course, but they were still likely to face violence from the opposite army (and sometimes their own side as well).

You also don’t actually know how many women were “ok” with anything, since most women were illiterate, and literate men historically generally didn’t concern themselves with the thoughts of women, whom they thought were beneath them. And it certainly did not matter to the men in charge of nations whether women were “ok” with anything: women’s job, as far as they were concerned, was to breed more and more soldiers to die, even if it killed them in the process.

You also don’t seem to understand the word “oppression”: it means “prolonged cruel and unjust treatment”, not just having bad experiences. Your claim that women were never ever oppressed under any circumstances is also a claim that, in all of history, you believe it was just and fair for women to be under even the most restrictive male control and for them to be denied equal legal rights and equal respect and dignity in society simply because men were physically more fit to fight in war.

Sorry, but women being physically less strong doesn’t mean women deserve to be treated like children.

I mean I get why you think I hate women. I’m a sexist not a msygonist.

I didn’t say “you hate women”. Read more closely. I said you were like “the women you hate”, meaning “you hate a particular subset of women, even though you are just like those women”. And that’s true: you hate the women who use the past to claim things about women today… even though you likewise use your own warped understanding of the past to claim things about men today.

[–]Coolio_Street_RacerTop G Wannabe -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

"when it was equally bad if not worse for men" does not mean oppressed.

Just to clarify I do not think men or women were oppressed. If you interpreted that from what I said IDK. It's not what I meant or think.

Men dying does not mean it is good or right for men to require women to serve them or to

Not serve... No one should be a slave. Women were not slaves.

deny them equality in society.

Yes it does, if more is expected from one gender. Such as laying down their lives. That gender should have more rights.

For example voting. If you are not required to fight in a war. You should not allowed to elect the commander of our military who decides whether we got war or not.

It's not my problem you are pathetically weak.

You also underestimate what affected women— most men in history did not die in war or violence; yet the vast majority of women were still treated inferior the men in their lives by law and by custom. One wrong does not make another wrong right.

Yes, there was strict gender roles. With advantages and disadvantages for each gender.

These gender roles were not oppression. In fact most women preferred them because making money was generally hard labour and that is not suited towards womens innate advantages and disadvantages.

Not fighting in the army doesn’t mean women didn’t fight and die in wars anyways— they just didn’t have weapons or commanding officers. When an invading army rolled through , what do you think happened to the women? The invaders raped and murdered them and their children… yet you seem fairly certain they were happily enjoying this experience.

I acknowledge women also suffered during war. Both genders suffered.

Women got raped, men got their limbs blown off.

Front lines is worse... Atleast if you won nothing bad happened. Men got their limbs blown off either way.

Still no gender was being oppressed by the other.

Women always were part of the suffering in every war— the men suffering in wars were also the violent rapists and murderers who took their prize in raping and killing women of the opposite side when they could (and sometimes women on their own side). War is terrible, but you’re a fool ro think women weren’t affected too; remaining home only spared the women on the winning side, just as it rewarded many men on the winning side as well.

I acknowledge women also suffered during war. Both genders suffered.

Women got raped, men got their limbs blown off.

Front lines is worse... Atleast if you won nothing bad happened. Men got their limbs blown off either way.

Still no gender was being oppressed by the other.

First, many women didn’t stay home, so you’re not being factually accurate. Many women historically travelled with armies, often including the soldiers’ wives and families. Women in the military train prepared food, kept camp, and provided nursing and sewing services. These women did not serve formally in the military so you don’t acknowledge they existed, of course, but they were still likely to face violence from the opposite army (and sometimes their own side as well).

Home could mean many things. But generally they weren't on the front lines.

I acknowledge women also suffered during war. Both genders suffered.

Women got raped, men got their limbs blown off.

Front lines is worse... Atleast if you won nothing bad happened. Men got their limbs blown off either way.

Still no gender was being oppressed by the other.

You also don’t actually know how many women were “ok” with anything, since most women were illiterate,

So where most men depending on what time period your talking about.

and literate men historically generally didn’t concern themselves with the thoughts of women, whom they thought were beneath them.

Gender roles... One of the disadvantages of women is your not viewed a capable as man. Which is true in some regards as you stated.

But again the advantage of that is men pitied your ineptness and didn't push you onto the front lines.

Pros and Cons.

And it certainly did not matter to the men in charge of nations whether women were “ok” with anything: women’s job, as far as they were concerned, was to breed more and more soldiers to die, even if it killed them in the process.

They didn't give a fuck about the men either.... We were all disposable to the elites.

You also don’t seem to understand the word “oppression”: it means “prolonged cruel and unjust treatment”, not just having bad experiences.

Bruh how tf you gonna say men just have "Bad Experiences." lmao. Atleast I admit that women also went through intense suffering.

Your claim that women were never ever oppressed under any circumstances is also a claim that, in all of history, you believe it was just and fair for women to be under even the most restrictive male control and for them to be denied equal legal rights and equal respect and dignity

I'm sure their were some time periods where women where oppressed by men. Islam I think takes gender roles a little to far and is mostly beneficial to the men.

I believe that a majority of women throughout history were ok with gender roles because it was easier. Sure, there was likely a minority of women who did not like their gender roles. But the vast majority were likely ok with it because it was hard and not suited to their innate advantages and disadvantages.

But specifically in the last 200 years where feminists say they are oppressed. Women were not being oppressed by men.

in society simply because men were physically more fit to fight in war.

Well that is the most obvious and innate difference between men. There are MANY MANY MANY more. But that is a terribly long discussion.

Sorry, but women being physically less strong doesn’t mean women deserve to be treated like children.

Women had less rights because they had less responsibility.

Coal Mines vs Home

Front lines vs Home Camp

the list goes on....

Women where ok with that. No you cannot have the same rights as men.

If society expects more from men, men have a larger say in how society is dictated.

I didn’t say “you hate women”. Read more closely. I said you were like “the women you hate”, meaning “you hate a particular subset of women, even though you are just like those women”. And that’s true: you hate the women who use the past to claim things about women today… even though you likewise use your own

Fair enough. I do hate women who think men oppressed them throughout society. These are generally extremely misandrist women. Just like you likely hate misogynists.

warped understanding of the past to claim things about men today.

I think your understanding is warped.

You like most women AND men. Look at the disadvantages of being a women and man respectively in a bubble. Which will obviously seem like you got the shittier deal. When in reality you need to look at the disadvantages AND advantages.

[–]badgersonice 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes it does, if more is expected from one gender. Such as laying down their lives. That gender should have more rights.

Women laid down their lives in droves to give birth to children. Likely more women died in childbirth than men died in war in history, since war only sporadically affected some men, but nearly all women faced childbirth multiple times and it was vastly more dangerous in the past than with modern medicine.

You simply do not appreciate or respect their sacrifices because you value women and children much less than men. Instead, you believe women deserve to be treated as lesser simply because they were simply born with uteruses instead of with enough muscle to kill people more easily.

It is a strange value system you have, that glorifies violence and disdains children.

For example voting. If you are not required to fight in a war. You should not allowed to elect the commander of our military who decides whether we got war or not.

Says you. But this is arbitrary.

You could just as equally say that if you do not grow new soldiers with your body, you should not be allowed to elect the leader of our nation who decides when to send their children out to bleed and die. You are far less disposable to your mom than you are to military elites and other men.

In fact most women preferred them

No, you prefer them. You don't actually know what most women thought through history because they weren't taught to read or write. You're speculating based on your own glorification of men and your pity and contempt for women. You seem very attached to the egotistical notion that women are stupid and useless and men benevolently sacrificed everything for those lowly female weaklings out of charity.

Get your head screwed on straight. Men were both heroes and villains. Women wouldn't have needed protection from male violence at all if men weren't so violent.

Women got raped, men got their limbs blown off.

Women got raped with bayonettes. Women died in wars too. A lot. You just don't value them because they weren't as much of a threat to men's lives. Like come on, do you really think fire-bombing spared women's lives and only targeted men?

They didn't give a fuck about the men either.... We were all disposable to the elites.

And yet you think women were pampered princesses in spite of being disposable.

Still no gender was being oppressed by the other.

Sorry, no. Depriving women of rights and dignity based solely on the fact they weren't men, something they had no control over and didn't ask for, isn't just or fair.

Atleast I admit that women also went through intense suffering.

Dude, "bad experiences" is not a euphemism, I just didn't want to list out all the possible ways to die for both men and women. and lol, no you didn't admit women went through intense suffering: your whole point here is that they had it easy, and didn't suffer enough to deserve being treated like adults.

Well that is the most obvious and innate difference between men. There are MANY MANY MANY more. But that is a terribly long discussion.

No, the most obvious innate difference between men and women is the ability to give birth. Duh. And yet neither that nor any other gender difference are relevant to your weird claim that murdering and dying in combat (instead of defenselessly at the mercy of other men) are why men deserve more rights than women.

Women had less rights because they had less responsibility.

Women had less rights because men could beat them up. Nothing new with rule by force. You can gussy it up with your "men were being kind and charitable" act all you want-- that is the real conclusion, that you believe men should rule over women simply because they are better at violence.

I disagree-- there is a lot more to having a good, successful society than simply being good at killing.

Coal Mines vs Home

Killing vs raising new citizens.

Again, it's clear where your values lie: you glorify violence and disdain the most critical activity for any nation.

If society expects more from men, men have a larger say in how society is dictated.

Society expects different things from men and women.

Women where ok with that. No you cannot have the same rights as men.

Obviously women were not ok with that. And dude, we do have the same rights as men here. When or where do you live?

And lol, no wonder women don't want to act feminine anymore when this is the shitty views men have of feminine women. It's so very clear how truly little men value women's contributions to humanity.

[–]Coolio_Street_Racer1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women laid down their lives in droves to give birth to children. Likely more women died in childbirth than men died in war in history, since war only sporadically affected some men, but nearly all women faced childbirth multiple times and it was vastly more dangerous in the past than with modern medicine.

You simply do not appreciate or respect their sacrifices because you value women and children much less than men. Instead, you believe women deserve to be treated as lesser simply because they were simply born with uteruses instead of with enough muscle to kill people more easily.

It is a strange value system you have, that glorifies violence and disdains children.

I'm not trying to get into some suffering Olympics. I'm just saying women were not oppressed throughout most of history and more spefically within the last 200 years femminst claim they were oPprEsSeD

Says you. But this is arbitrary.

You could just as equally say that if you do not grow new soldiers with your body, you should not be allowed to elect the leader of our nation who decides when to send their children out to bleed and die. You are far less disposable to your mom than you are to military elites and other men.

Got it you want special privileges based on your gender... Just say that. I have a pussy so I'm special.

No, the most obvious innate difference between men and women is the ability to give birth. Duh.

I'd think if you never saw a man and a women. The most obvious difference would be how we look.... duh

And yet neither that nor any other gender difference are relevant to your weird claim that murdering and dying in combat (instead of defenselessly at the mercy of other men) are why men deserve more rights than women.

Funny how you see it from only one perspective. As the attackers. Yet you don't talk about the men dying to defend.

It's not that complicated. One gender expect to die and the other is not. So one gender deserves more rights.

One is something you do. Versus just being born with a pussy....

Women had less rights because men could beat them up. Nothing new with rule by force. You can gussy it up with your "men were being kind and charitable" act all you want-- that is the real conclusion, that you believe men should rule over women simply because they are better at violence.

I disagree-- there is a lot more to having a good, successful society than simply being good at killing.

Men should have more rights because they are expect to die and women are not. Aswell as many other expecations derivied from gender roles.

Women had certain rights when more strict gender roles were present. Not that gender roles are diffrent(The expecations society has for men and women.) The rights should be diffrent.

Different expectations(Different Gender Roles) = Different Rights...

If men beat women so much, why didn't they beat them to work hard labor? Wouldn't that be alot easier than men doing it? Maybe men weren't so bad...

Men are better at violence. But women in are more war hungry. If you weren't so pathetically weak, you'd be alot more abusive.

Listen I don't like conquest. But end of the day you either conquer or become conquered. The last 50 years are an anomaly because of nukes. Where war has become more financial than through violence.

Killing vs raising new citizens.

Again, it's clear where your values lie: you glorify violence and disdain the most critical activity for any nation.

*Dying vs raising new citizens

My values lie in those who DIE. Not just being born with a pussy.

Interesting how you instantly jump to the fact that women's value is derived from being born. For a man it's something you need to do. Me and you think alot more alike than you think lol.

Sorry, no. Depriving women of rights and dignity based solely on the fact they weren't men, something they had no control over and didn't ask for, isn't just or fair.

It's not that complicated. You should not be allowed to elect the leader of our military. The person who decides if we go to war or not. When only one gender is required to fight in that war.

Society expects different things from men and women.

Therefore the rights of men and women should be different :).

Obviously women were not ok with that. And dude, we do have the same rights as men here. When or where do you live?

Your right, I'd argue women have more rights than men. Especially in family courts.

And lol, no wonder women don't want to act feminine anymore when this is the shitty views men have of feminine women. It's so very clear how truly little men value women's contributions to humanity.

Lol women have wayyyyyy worse views of men:

Even Andrew Tate actively says he does not hate women. Women's idol Lizzo or Drew Afualo openly states she hates men....

Sorry I don't value someone for being born with a pussy and not a dick.

I honestly have 0 problem with women voting. Like is it kinda unfair, yeah. But it's aight. I'm not that petty. You should of made the argument the president is responsible for alot more than just the military.

Mainly women were not oppressed in the last 200 years. The laws were the way they were at the time because of the gender roles that both genders preferred due to life generally being much harder.

Even now, in most third world countries. They have generally very strict gender roles. Let's go to Mexico where the workforce is majority men and the gender roles are pretty strict. Let's ask those women if they think they are oppressed. If they want us to go and allow them to work in hard labour jobs.

Women only started shifting when it wasn't hard labor. Which is fine. Just don't say men oppressed you...

Just remember the only reason you can work is because of the inventions of men. Even reddit was created by a man, the internet, electricity, the list goes on. Those are the true contributions of men to society. No your 1 or 2 inventions done by women do not compare to the work of man.

The same inventions that allow you to say men are violent wife beating oppressors in the comfort of your home. BUILT BY LIKELY MEXICAN MEN.

[–]badgersonice2 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

'm just saying women were not oppressed throughout most of history and more spefically within the last 200 years femminst claim they were oPprEsSeD

No, you’re “just saying” women had fewer rights and freedoms because you think their bodies are trash. It’s more like you simply think oppression is good for women, that’s all. It’s all very patronizing, of course, but doesn’t change the fact that women having equal rights is equality, while automatically expected to be obedient to men is not.

Got it you want special privileges based on your gender... Just say that. I have a pussy so I'm special.

No, more like “I’m a person and I’m not a worthless trinket to be kept on a shelf and ignored”.

I also think I am legally entitled to vote because it’s now in the constitution. It’s not a special privilege, it’s a constitutionally enshrined right.

Funny how you see it from only one perspective. As the attackers. Yet you don't talk about the men dying to defend.

No, you just completely ignored the attacking aspect of war to pretend the defenders are not also attackers. Your defenders also have no value whatsoever if there are no attackers. By claiming men deserve all these extra rights and freedoms based on fhe fact that some act as defenders, you’re also saying that men only deserve rights because other men are attackers.

Your argument for men’s rights means you actually want for at least some men to be violent and cruel. Your argument is that men deserve rights based only on the threat of violence… which means violence is the only justification for men being treated as full members of society.

In addition— I also talked about the neutral men, men like you, who haven’t defended shit. Why do you think they deserve rights, but women do not?

My values lie in those who DIE. Not just being born with a pussy.

Lol, you claim your value is based on other men dying because you were born with a dick. Women can claim that same right, then: some men died, and women are also human like them, so they deserve rights.

Interesting how you instantly jump to the fact that women's value is derived from being born.

No, I merely recognized that you would belittle and dismiss any other value. To men like you, women are nothing more than an axe wound.

For a man it's something you need to do.

No, you don’t. Men are granted equal rights in society for existing. Men like you, who do not fight and do not defend, are still granted equal rights.

But women in are more war hungry. If you weren't so pathetically weak, you'd be alot more abusive.

It's not that complicated. You should not be allowed to elect the leader of our military. The person who decides if we go to war or not.

Again, the President does not decide if we go to war.

And whatever, we do have that right, gained through democratic means. It’s a constitutional right. Women are entitled to the rights enshrined in the constitution, whether you like it or not.

And if men are going to continue claiming they went to war to protect women, then we do deserve the right to vote on whether we go to war. You don’t get to use our names to do shit we don’t want, then blame us for it like you’re setting us up for.

I get sick of wars being fought in the name of women who never asked for you to murder for them. Loads of women are pacifists, and yet you eagerly blame them for your own personal bloodlust and pride in pursuing war.

Therefore the rights of men and women should be different :).

So since you believe men deserve voting rights for having to fill out paperwork at 18 (sorry, for being responsible for defending the country when there has not been a draft in 50 years)… then you must beleive women should deserve special rights for being the ones responsible for bearing and raising children. Perhaps your argument is that men do not deserve any rights to their children?

Even Andrew Tate actively says he does not hate women. Women's idol Lizzo or Drew Afualo openly states she hates men....

Empty words. Watch what people do, not what they say. Andrew Tate is under arrest for human trafficking of women— he allegedly does not value women as human beings. Has Lizzie sold any men into sex slavery? If not, then Andrew Tate is more hateful in practice.

Sorry I don't value someone for being born with a pussy and not a dick.

I know. You value them for being born with a dick and not a pussy. You’ve made that quite clear here.

Just remember the only reason you can work is because of the inventions of men.

The real irony here is you continuing to take credit for the works of other men, simply for having a dick too. You didn’t invent or design anything you use everyday, either, and yet you want to claim you are any different than the women you look down your nose at? Mmmmkay.

Even reddit was created by a man, the internet, electricity, the list goes on. Those are the true contributions of men to society.

Nobody owes you any gratitude or anything for these things: you did not do them. You’ve done nothing except try to ride the coat tails of those men in order to declare yourself superior for being born with a dick. It’s hilarious watching you declare women are worthless because you think women have did not design the things you didn’t design either.

And if you’re at it, hahahaha that you think reddit— fucking reddit— is the crowning achievement of humanity. Are you for real? It is fortunate I don’t credit all men with the inventions and actions of individuals— otherwise, I’d look down on all men for the existence of Reddit and Facebook and shitposting sites everywhere.

Fortunately, unlike you, I don’t give credit or blame individuals based on the good or bad actions of other members of their sex.

[–]Coolio_Street_Racer1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

***PART 1***(I need to break into parts because I can't comment that long)

No, you’re “just saying” women had fewer rights and freedoms because you think their bodies are trash.

Where did I say women's bodies are trash? I said you are weaker, which you agreed too.

Straw Man Harder

It’s more like you simply think oppression is good for women,

You were not oppressed. There were strict gender roles which both men AND women preferred.

Even now, in most third world countries. They have generally very strict gender roles. Let's go to Mexico where the workforce is majority men and the gender roles are pretty strict. Let's ask those women if they think they are oppressed. If they want us to go and empower them to work in hard labour jobs.

that’s all. It’s all very patronizing, of course, but doesn’t change the fact that women having equal rights is equality, while automatically expected to be obedient to men is not.

Never did I say women have to obedient to men.

Straw Man Harder

No, more like “I’m a person and I’m not a worthless trinket to be kept on a shelf and ignored”.

Never said women should be worthless trinkets to kept on a shelf and ignored

Straw Man Harder

I also think I am legally entitled to vote because it’s now in the constitution. It’s not a special privilege, it’s a constitutionally enshrined right.

I'm not arguing legally, the discussion is ethically.

You are allowed to elect the leader of our military, but only 1 gender is required to fight. A privilege women have that men don't. In other words a special privilege.

Didn't know I had to spell it out for you...

No, you just completely ignored the attacking aspect of war to pretend the defenders are not also attackers.

????? When your country is being invaded and you fight the invaders. How are you now the attackers? I guess you are attacking the invaders. But what do you want to do? Just let them conquer you.

Stupidest shit I've heard you say thus far.

Your defenders also have no value whatsoever if there are no attackers. By claiming men deserve all these extra rights and freedoms based on fhe fact that some act as defenders, you’re also saying that men only deserve rights because other men are attackers.

Yes humans are violent and greedy...

If you are trying to shame men for being violent. Women are not less violent. Women are just less capable.

Interestingly men are the violent gender, but gay men have lower rates of abuse than lesbian couples.

Your argument for men’s rights means you actually want for at least some men to be violent and cruel. Your argument is that men deserve rights based only on the threat of violence… which means violence is the only justification for men being treated as full members of society.

Like I said previously it's not only kings who were violent. Queens are actually far more likely to declare war. So no... It's not just men who want violence.

I hate to break it to you. But the world isn't a nice place. Your idea that men are the only ones that are violent is completely false. Women are violent, they just suck at it.

I think when one gender is required to die, they deserve more rights than the gender that is not.

In addition— I also talked about the neutral men, men like you, who haven’t defended shit. Why do you think they deserve rights, but women do not?

Because in the event of a draft, we are required to fight and you are not.

No I don't care that we haven't been to war in 50 years. If we do, I'm required and you are not.

Look at the poor fucks in Ukraine dying on the front lines. Those men deserve more rights than the women.

Lol, you claim your value is based on other men dying because you were born with a dick.

It has nothing to do with being born with a dick. Going to war is something you do. That is required of me because I have a dick.

Women can claim that same right, then: some men died, and women are also human like them, so they deserve rights.

No they should not, because they are not required to fight in a war.

No, I merely recognized that you would belittle and dismiss any other value.

I acknowledge women have value WHEN gender roles are enforced. But gender roles are no longer strictly enforced.

Well... Except for the draft

To men like you, women are nothing more than an axe wound.

Nice ad hominin attack. I can see your really getting desperate. Its funny lol.

No, you don’t. Men are granted equal rights in society for existing. Men like you, who do not fight and do not defend, are still granted equal rights.

Can you not understand that in the event of draft I'm required. Just because I haven't been to war does not change the fact that I'm required to fight if we there is one and you are not....

Again, the President does not decide if we go to war.

Fair enough you caught my blunder. Regardless still the commander of a military. Only I'm required to join.

And whatever, we do have that right, gained through democratic means. It’s a constitutional right. Women are entitled to the rights enshrined in the constitution, whether you like it or not.

Thank god men are so kind we gave women that special privilege.

And if men are going to continue claiming they went to war to protect women, then we do deserve the right to vote on whether we go to war. You don’t get to use our names to do shit we don’t want, then blame us for it like you’re setting us up for.

I get sick of wars being fought in the name of women who never asked for you to murder for them. Loads of women are pacifists, and yet you eagerly blame them for your own personal bloodlust and pride in pursuing war.

When did I say the purpose men go to war is to protect women? That is one aspect of war, not the purpose....

Straw Man Harder.

[–]Coolio_Street_Racer1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So since you believe men deserve voting rights for having to fill out paperwork at 18

Lol it's not about filling paper work. It's about being required to fight?

(sorry, for being responsible for defending the country when there has not been a draft in 50 years)…

I don't care. I'm still required and you are not.....

Look at the poor lads in Ukraine. They hadn't been to war in over 30 years. But the day did come...

then you must beleive women should deserve special rights for being the ones responsible for bearing and raising children. Perhaps your argument is that men do not deserve any rights to their children?

No because you are not required to bear and raise children. That is optional.

Empty words. Watch what people do, not what they say. Andrew Tate is under arrest for human trafficking of women— he allegedly does not value women as human beings. Has Lizzie sold any men into sex slavery? If not, then Andrew Tate is more hateful in practice.

Fair enough, your one good rebuttal thus far.

I know. You value them for being born with a dick and not a pussy. You’ve made that quite clear here.

No I value the fact that there is more expected of me because I have a dick. Not the dick itself. Its not about the genetalia, it's about what is expected of me because of my genetalia.

You said women are valuable because their womb. Which is not something you do, it is something born with.

Do you get it yet? One is born with an ability, the other is required to do something.... It's not about being born with a dick. It's about what is REQUIRED of me because I have a dick.

If women were required to have babies, I'd agree. But they are not. It is OPTIONAL.

The real irony here is you continuing to take credit for the works of other men, simply for having a dick too.

You didn’t invent or design anything you use everyday, either, and yet you want to claim you are any different than the women you look down your nose at? Mmmmkay.

Nobody owes you any gratitude or anything for these things: you did not do them. You’ve done nothing except try to ride the coat tails of those men in order to declare yourself superior for being born with a dick. It’s hilarious watching you declare women are worthless because you think women have did not design the things you didn’t design either.

We are talk in the context of the contributions of men and women as a whole to society.....

I get your running out of rebuttals so need to jump to ad hominin attacks. It's amusing, but not very productive in terms of the conversation.

And if you’re at it, hahahaha that you think reddit— fucking reddit— is the crowning achievement of humanity.

Please show me where I said reddit is the crowning achievement of humanity..... It was the first thing that popped in my head.

Are you for real? It is fortunate I don’t credit all men with the inventions and actions of individuals— otherwise, I’d look down on all men for the existence of Reddit and Facebook and shitposting sites everywhere.

You really are dumb if you think the only thing reddit and facebook is good for is shit posting.

Fortunately, unlike you, I don’t give credit or blame individuals based on the good or bad actions of other members of their sex.

We are talk in the context of the contributions of men and women as a whole to society. I see what people do as contributions greater than something someone is born with....

Like I said previously this not a hill I want to die on. I really don't care that women are allowed to vote. I'm not that petty. But I acknowledge the unfairness of it.

I do see how you are drifting away from the main discussion which was that women were not oppressed throughout most of history. Which is a hill I'm willing to die on.

Even now, in most third world countries. They have generally very strict gender roles. Let's go to Mexico where the workforce is majority men and the gender roles are pretty strict. Let's ask those women if they think they are oppressed. If they want us to go and empower them to work in hard labour jobs.

[–]siletntiumNo Pill 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]siletntiumNo Pill -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men were allowed to vote BECAUSE they died of Internal bleeding in a mud hole in France.

No, not in the US. Read some history before accepting online talking points as fact.

The original requirement to be able to vote was land ownership (essentially, wealth), not eligibility for military service— remember, nobody was better at avoiding unwanted deadly military service than the wealthy, and even in service, they were granted the best equipment and their choice of position.

Then later, legally, universal male suffrage was granted by the fifteenth amendment to the constitution in 1870, granting the right to vote to all men in the UA regardless of “race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” This is obviously not a product men fighting in World War I, seeing as how it happened nearly fifty years prior to any American men fighting in the Great War.

And then, of course, in practice, universal male suffrage in the US was not actually fully enforced until the 1960s with the civil rights act. Black men who fought in each of the World Wars were denied the franchise in the south, in spite of their service.

And even during WWI, men who were not capable of military service (men with disabilities, clergymen, the elderly, etc) were enabled to vote while men who could be drafted were denied the right. Remember, 18 year old men were eligible for the draft before the voting age was lowered from 21 to 18 in 1971.

Clearly voting rights in the US did not derive from the responsibility of signing up for the selective service, since even for most of the Vietnam war, the last war where the draft was implemented at all in US history, young men were drafted when they were allowed to vote.

Sorry, but you’ve bought into a false historical narrative. It is not true that serving in the military earned them suffrage, and it is also not true that men were denied suffrage for not having served or been eligible to serve.

Women want privilege without responsibility.

Voting is a right in a democracy, not a privilege.

And your argument that women are “selfish” to demand equal rights as citizens even though they are born with weaker physical bodies is just strange. Your idea that people only deserve the right to vote based on being physically more capable of killing in the military is just as arbitrary as it would be to claim people only deserve the right to vote based on being better at giving birth to new citizens. Citizenship and civic responsibility should not be based on your reproductive organs.

That why modern women's hero archetype is literally just being as selfish as possible and avoiding all consequences.

Ironic, when you are yourself selfishly arguing that women haven’t earned the right to vote by being drafted to die in some pointless war when you yourself likely get the right without ever facing the draft either. And yes, it’s selfish: your vote counts more if you reduce the number of other people allowed to vote.

[–]siletntium1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is obviously not a product men fighting in World War I, seeing as how it happened nearly fifty years prior to any American men fighting in the Great War.

Fighting in war in general.

Are you autistic? there is no other way for you to understand this poorly.

Not trying to insult even but that's just ridiculous.

Black men who fought in each of the World Wars were denied the franchise in the south, in spite of their service

So you already know that it was IN SPITE of fighting.

Ironic, when you are yourself selfishly arguing that women haven’t earned the right to vote by being drafted to die in some pointless war when you yourself likely get the right without ever facing the draft either

The fact women think they should get to pick the commander in chief of the military and therefore get to choose when men are sent to die is the epitome of self-centered arrogance

[–]badgersonice2 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you autistic? there is no other way for you to understand this poorly.

I understand the argument just fine-- you are simply incorrect that combat was the logic behind allowing the vote in US history. Again, owning land was the original reason for being granted voting rights.

Fighting in war in general.

No, that was also never the legal argument behind voting rights for men. It was originally based on land ownership, not selective service. The fifteenth amendment was not drafted based on military service, but rather based on citizenship and male-ness. "You might maybe have to fight" was not the legal argument made for enfranchisement in the US.

So you already know that it was IN SPITE of fighting

They were denied it in spite of your argument, which is not a valid argument. Black men during the civil rights era did not gain the legal right to vote because they fought in war, but because they were equal citizens. The idea of "one person, one vote" emerged from that era as well, not "one soldier one vote" or "one man one vote". Remember, by the 1960s, women were generally allowed to vote even though they were not required to sign up for the selective service.

The fact women think they should get to pick the commander in chief of the military and therefore get to choose when men are sent to die is the epitome of self-centered arrogance

The Commander in Chief of the United States DOES NOT have the power to declare war! That is the sole purview of Congress. That's in the constitution-- again, you are poorly informed, or are getting your talking points from bullshit online woman-haters. You simply do not know what you are talking about on this subject.

So it's your view that women don't have a stake in the country's future, and only soldiers do? That women shouldn't be allowed to vote against sending their children to die in pointless wars? That's foolish on the face of it: at bare minimum, your mom thinks you're a lot less disposable than any random man ever will.

And most men disagree with your view as well. Your view of women as non-citizens is very niche and not supported by law or the general voting populous at large. It's only weird, uninformed men twisting historical facts who think such things today. Women gained the right to vote through a democratic amendment to the constitution-- a challenging political process, to say the least. So even if you want women to be subordinate to men legally, they gained the right through legal means that only men, at the time, could vote on. Very clearly the nineteenth amendment proves that the men who went through WWI themselves did not believe voting rights should be tied to military service.

And if you actually gave a damn about men dying horribly in combat, you'd want women to vote. Women in general are generally more likely to be pacifist and less likely to vote for war and military force than men in general. For example, Jeannette Rankin, the first woman elected to Congress, was the sole member of congress to vote against the US going to war in WWII. If you value soldiers lives, maybe you should consider that women are not so arrogant and dumb as the men who believe women should not be allowed the full rights of citizenship.

[–]AdultHumanMaleXY 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m not “defending the side” of anybody. I’m correcting the bullshit notion that women are supposed to apologize or express gratitude for men dying in the trenches in WWI.

then their entire fucking foundation for existing falls apart.

It is perfectly valid to challenge injustices of today without invoking the past or without riding on the coattails of other people’s achievements and sacrifices. For men or women.

For example, people today fighting to ensure abortion is accessible and legal are not made illegitimate simply because you got in a huff after seeking out and rage watching some TikTok bimbo whining that she’s oppressed because of coverture laws over a century ago.

Edit: I also didn’t say he’s not “allowed” to. It legal. What with free speech and all. I’m just showing that he’s stupid to do so.

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It's not at all unusual for underrepresented groups to outperform the majority. They have to work harder to qualify and maintain. The army only started lowering standards in 2022 for more than just women but also small men and older people because they're desperate for more soldiers.

Studies show that men are slightly better with pistols while women are slightly better with rifles, the difference is very small in either field though some speculate that because women have a lower center of gravity it gives them more control and accuracy. The consensus from shooting instructors is that women are easier to teach because they don't have a big an ego about shooting and are more willing to listen and learn.

I only learned about this from my cousins when they taught me how to shoot a crossbow and I shot a bullseye from 40 yards on my first go they said "idk why women are just better shots" I would be useless without my glasses though I'm sure.

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US didn't start WWI or WWII, but its men went and fought in them. How were the women of US not privileged for not having to go and die or be maimed or be traumatized in combat - literally the worst thing imaginable besides torture, which I'm sure some of them were. Like, I know you're conditioned to thing rape is the worst thing ever because our society conditions an emotional response to things that affect women, but it's not. It's not even close to trench warfare.

In WWII US the US suffered and unprovoked attacked, and the women of the US were defended by the men and boys of the country against a force that had proven themselves to be murderous, genocidal, rapists. And what are you complaining about, being expected to make dinner?

Here's what 18 year old American boys gave up their lives to stop from happening to your grandmother:

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated that 20,000 women, including some children and the elderly, were raped during the occupation, with Yale University claiming over 80,000 rapes.[3][42] A large number of rapes were done systematically by the Japanese soldiers as they went from door to door, searching for girls, with many women being captured and gang-raped.

And what the fuck are you complaining about? Mozart's sister wasn't allowed to be a famous composer?

weren't allowed to fight in

LMFAO. Sure, dude. The women were all clamoring to be sent off to the trenches; it's just that they weren't allowed.

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Men still hold most positions of power. A system takes time and effort to break down. Women are in more positions of power than ever before and there is an upward trajectory definitely but social systems and attitudes don't just change over night and there's plenty out there appealing to tradition and trying to push women and feminism back which is the attitudes thing I spoke about.

So long as men hold the vast majority of power, it's a patriarchy. It's as simple as that. It's less of a patriarchy than before but it still is a patriarchy factually in the most basic of terms.

It's less so than it was but it still is and you can deny the basic numbers and facts all you want because you are instead imagining some grand conspiracy of men grouping together behind closed doors to oppress women whenever people use that terrm but truth is you are just projecting a strawman.

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Not being excluded legally doesn't mean there arent attitudes and pre-established systems in place.

Good things feelings and outdated systems that don't exist today are not permissible evidence that prove the existence of the patriarchy.

Do you also think systemic racism still exists because Jim Crow was a thing 80+ years ago?

There's no written laws in the animal kingdom, yet you can still observe unequal power structures, be them patriarchal and matriarchal based on attitudes and structures of the tribe and kingdom. You understand that right?

Human societies are not patriarchal or matriarchal, they are historically oligarchal, just because women are not natural-born leaders and thus most of them don't bother for the position, doesn't mean that historically there haven't been female leaders.

It certainly doesn't mean that the modern gynocentric west is in any way patriarchal, because, once again, someone like Hillary Clinton exists.

I think you do but the goal of you guys isn't to fix these system or for equality, it's to shutdown the conversation about entirely so things either stay the same or so your side can backpedal on progress without any or as much pushback. You underestimate your opponents intellgence all too often.

I'm willing to shut down conversations about conspiracy theories like ghosts, UFOs, flat earth, and vaccines causing autism, the forever patriarchy is not more credible than any of the things I just mentioned, so until you prove to me that women are excluded from holding positions of power in the modern west (third time I asked you this question bytheway), then we might as well be arguing about a ghost.

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Yes

The critical theory propaganda is embedded deep within you I should have probably seen that coming lmao

This is your justification and it isn't supported in fact.

There's more correlative evidence for the nature argument considering 99% of mammal species, and all of those that are the closest to humans, including our pre-homosapien brethren, have had a disproportionate amount of male leaders.

You can refuse to believe in evolutionary history and pretend otherwise but that's not my problem.

Plenty of women do take leadership positions and are successful, which you admitted in your comment so that essentially throws your biological argument in the trash and we don't know if the disparity is a result of nature or nurture.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "exception that proves the rule?"

Do you believe humans are bipedal creatures despite some humans being born with three legs?

Do you believe women are of the nature to reproduce despite some of them being born with genetic defects?

Why must you then forgo this logic when discussing the historical unwillingness for women to be leaders, even to this very day? And blame it all on the ghost that is the patriarchy instead of using the much simpler, and biologically grounded explanation like:

They have less testosterone, and a different brain chemistry, and are also less physically fit, and therefore less likely to take risks, become leaders, and dominate other competitors?

[–]Salt_Mathematician241 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The critical theory propaganda is embedded deep within you I should have probably seen that coming lmao

No, I just prefer to live in reality where recent history can have real impact on people for generations. People who were discriminated against less then 100 years ago are likely going to have less generational wealth, worse socioeconomic outcomes, less representation is positions of power and unconcious biases leveraged against them.

They have less testosterone, and a different brain chemistry, and are also less physically fit, and therefore less likely to take risks, become leaders, and dominate other competitors?

Testosterone isn't the only factor in determining leadership otherwise there wouldn't be any matriarchal societies in nature. Bonobos are great example of primate species that is matriarchal and is interesting to study if you're having a hard time seeing how a society can be under the leadership of anything other than testosterone and aggressive male dominance.

https://www.insidescience.org/news/bonobo-matriarchs-lead-way

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Feminists are the ones who fought to be included in the military. There's literally been multiple cases of women faking being Men specifically to join the army and be included in male dominated industries. Look at most international armies. They have women in their ranks and in combat roles. Women aren't the ones avoiding being responsible for defending our countries.

You know who fought tooth and nail to not include them? Men.

Who starts the vast majority of wars? Men.

Who targets female soldiers to the point where rape is just an accepted consequence of joining the military? Men.

Like, this is such a stupid argument. "We legally barred you from joining the military and actively punished you when you tried to get involved but it's your fault men die in wars". Like, pick up a fucking history book before making such a stupid fucking post.

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I have a theory on why things are like they are now... Which is that those 2 wars killed the majority of very masculine and strong men there were back then, leaving in the states for example a lot of men that didn't go to war for x or y reason ... This created a whole generation of men that grew up with a father that was either not as masculine or mentally destroyed by the war, that had women thinking they could do it on their own, or simply raising a whole generation without dad's or where one man was the father of multiple kids with multiple women(since there were so many to "spare") hence the de-masculinity began. Boys were growing up without a father by the hundreds, at the same time encounter for the first time in humans history a time were women could become "breadwinners" and the snowball effect kept going from there .... It is way bigger than this and I tried to make a summary of it lol ... Maybe I should make a whole post 🤔

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In absolute monarchy nobody had rights, and nobody could vote.

All I can feel for someone who says something how women had no rights while men apparently had them, is pity.

Pity, because they are so deep into that rabbit hole of self victimization and utter lack of self esteem, that they are twisting reality and degrading others to feel somewhat okay with themselves. They can't feel good if they are not the biggest victim, and they can't actually improve and become a better person because that means owning their mistakes and both good and bad parts of their personality.

Basically they only accept the good parts, and use self-victimization to justify the bad.
And they need others to believe how it's so bad for them too since if others don't do it, it might shatter their fragile illusion(and ego), which is why they try to shame, insult and lash out at others to accept their worldview.

It's sad, but true.

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Title	Very fucking equal
Author	Treacle-Flimsy
Upvotes	423
Comments	827
Date	June 15, 2023 4:53 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/14a7fgr/very_fucking_equal/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/very-fucking-equal.1222299 https://theredarchive.com/post/1222299

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