Daily Community Chat Megathread

AutoModerator · 2021-10-28T20:00:20+00:00

This daily thread is designed to be a place for all the funny discussions on PPD. Feel free to post off-topic questions, information, points-of-view, etc... in...

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The relationship between a man and his parents is very profound. My father has sacrificed a lot for me and I'm sure he will continue to do so. But I'll never love him as much as my mother. My father has been a teacher and a protector, giving me things that might be more important from a cold objective sense but my mother gave me unconditional love and tender care even at my weakest or when I was being a brat. I'm sure my father would give it too but his love APPEARS (Im sure intentionally) to be more conditional on my achievements, while I'm sure I could become a mass murderer and momma would still think I'm an angel.

I think thats ultimately what men seek from their female partners , a love that is a shelter from the world where we can be allowed to relax and fail without being punished for it (which is also kinda the love men offer to women btw). I of course understand however that this is an ideal that is completely and utterly antithetical with what women find sexually and romantically attractive. But it still what men crave and one of the main reasons behind the clash between the sexes.

[–]simeneta_two8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheJim665 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why would anyone expect unconditional love from another adult that's not your parent?

It is pretty much the love men give to their woman. You can fail in spectacular ways and don't really have to perform in any significant way and your man will still love you. Just don't turn into a balloon or a raving bitch and he'll still think you are made of sunshine.

Children are loved unconditionally because they have no choice to be brought into this world. It's cruel to create life and then put expectations on its existence.

I'm sure exactly 0% of mothers go through this thought process when deciding whether to love their child or not.

It's just baffling to me that (some) men are so incensed/depressed by this.

And we do see expect it from every other relationship or interaction with the world we have . To a far greater degree than women. And its because of that we seek a respite from all that in the form of female love, especially when taking into account the sacrifices and effort we make for it.

Although I also disagree that men love women without conditions like you claim.

Not completely without conditions but close enough to it.

[–][deleted]5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SouthernGrass33 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And dont act too passive (boring, doormat ) or assertive (emasculating, nagging).

Be pleasant to talk to… no, not like that. Just be supportive and a good listener… well, dont just nod, contribute and be interesting… geez, your too boisterous, at first I thought your enthusiasm was endearing, but that’s a little annoying. Alright, now your quieter.. but kind of awkward. Aren’t women supposed to be the socially graceful ones? What was she talking about anyway. Women’s interests are boring. Wait, why is she going on about work and whisky? Men want women, and women these days just aren’t women anymore.

My wife? Sure, I love her- 20 years of marriage, and kids together, that’s love. She says I don’t seem that interested in talking or holding her hand, but she’s too sensitive— and what does she expect, we’re not newly weds

The burden men face is very real, but that doesn’t mean love is easy for women, or that women are ungrateful if they don’t want a duty based, don’t actually seem to like their partner that much kind of love.

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No they don't lmao. If they did men wouldn't complain about their wives getting fat/not having sex with them/whatever.

Are these things hard to achieve ? Is not becoming a whale and fucking your ROMANTIC partner a big expectation to have?

Where did I say they do? I'm simply pointing out why children are love unconditionally by their parents while adult partners are not.

And I explained that this isn't why children are loved unconditionally. This isn't why mothers love their children not is it why nature made mothers love their children.

And now you're moving goalposts.

I'm not moving goalposts, I'm assuming I'm talking to adults.There is no truly, completely unconditional love. Even the love of a mother to a child is based on the condition that it is her child and even that has limits. By unconditional love we mean love that has few and/or easy to fulfill conditions.

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[–]SouthernGrass32 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The genders are shitty in both overlapping and different ways.

With regard to wanting to fuck other women even though they love their current women— this is not a simple, inconsequential thing. If men have the means and choose to act on this desire, they detract time and energy away from a couple and their children (if they have them), expose the woman to increased ongoing danger of disease, invite excessive ongoing comparison between the woman and other partners, and men, while often less susceptible than women, are far from immune to getting attached to those they sleep with— especially if they have the option to sleep with people they find appealing and want to spend non-sexual time with rather than women who just meet their minimal requirements for sex. If men got the variety out of their system by sleeping with sex androids women wouldn’t care so much— they are bothered because it is an actual threat to well-being and potentially longevity of the relationship.

[–]TheJim661 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Of course it's no inconsequential thing. It's the way men are shitty. But it's different from what we are talking about and less destructive for the relationship than hypergamy.

Invite excessive ongoing comparison between the woman and other partners,

No, that's what you don't understand. He isn't comparing the wife to the mistress. He is fucking the mistress because she is new, not because she is better.

If men got the variety out of their system by sleeping with sex androids women wouldn’t care so much

That would indeed be ideal.

they are bothered because it is an actual threat to well-being and potentially longevity of the relationship.

It is. It's just less so than hypergamy is. I elaborate further in a previous thread I made.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ey5nk3/is_hypergamy_or_polygyny_worse_for_monogamous/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[–]SouthernGrass33 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, that's what you don't understand. He isn't comparing the wife to the mistress. He is fucking the mistress because she is new, not because she is better.

I understand that the craving for variety is the driver, but men, even though they have a much lower attraction floor, still prefer to optimize the desirability of who they sleep when they can. Given the choice, they’ll go hotter, more sexually bold (unless they’re super vanilla) and possibly more appealing personality to the extent that they have to interact with them. Men also are less likely to disclose being in a relationship when they have extramarital sex—they generally know they have a better chance for sex with the person they want to fuck if the other person thinks a relationship could eventually be on the table, so there’s a big incentive for extramarital sex to slip into faux dating territory. When sleeping and possibly dating in some capacity, comparison is inevitable, and also skewed by the fact that they the new person is… well, new, which is exciting and he doesn’t really know her flaws yet.

Edit: Thanks, I saw your thread. I absolutely agree that polygamy is much less detrimental among those who decide not to cheat or engage in similar behaviors even if they can.

With regard to hypergamy, I don’t subscribe to the idea that women need the best possible man they can get. They just want better than themselves. Most don’t have enough lust for their linear smv match-which admittedly sucks, but they’d rather have a happy relationship with a guy a couple points higher than them than chase someone at the top. Guys who are a 7 aren’t really looking for relationships with 5/5.5s though. They’re usually just looking to hookup, and when the options for a female 5 are basically:1. Date a 4 or 5 who you don’t have enough lust for, 2. Try to date a 7 who you have enough lust for, or 3. Hook up with a 9 because the 7 doesn’t really want to date you anyway, then the women may just choose option 3.

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Maybe not demanding if it is her only responsibilty, but many women (like myself) are both a worker / breadwinner and the mommy-bang-maid. I can only imagine how this scenario would look if you add children. I think this is the cause of unhappiness in women nowadays.

Moving onto your second point ~ well, I suppose my answer is rather unpleasant but I'd rather be frank. I think the divide on this topic between how men vs women see quality. When men think of another man of "quality," they think of "goodness" while women think of "masculinity."

I've noticed that I am only enthusiastic to be a submissive feminine if the man is masculine. Otherwise, if he is as feminine as me, he can do his own cleaning and cooking and coddle himself lol. The same way I have zero desire to do the clean and cook for and coddle women. If he is masculine... well of course he needs me for that! He is a Real Man TM and Real Men don't do feminine things. Of course Real Men need their dick suck. Of course Real Men need me to coddle them, as they need to put on the hard face for the world.

In short, if you want a mommy bang maid (a traditional, feminine woman), you best be one tough, masculine motherfucker. If you don't qualify in character or appearance, you're probably gonna have to settle for a feminist.

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Maybe not demanding if it is her only responsibilty, but many women (like myself) are both a worker / breadwinner and the mommy-bang-maid.

But that's not really something men want from women. If they need it (because we have a crappy economy), it's a compromise and well, compromises aren't ideal. From what I see however it's more that women want to juggle both and fail to do so.

As for the second point, this is why it's a paradox. You want to be feminine to a tough invulnerable masculine man but you'll stop seeing him as a tough invulnerable masculine man if he "relaxes* too much in front of you or some other guy is more of a tough invulnerable masculine man than he is. Which as you can see means that a man can't get the love he actually craves from the woman and not pay for it (metaphorically) in the end.

[–]nessaea-blue2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But that's not really something men want from women. If they need it (because we have a crappy economy), it's a compromise and well, compromises aren't ideal. From what I see however it's more that women want to juggle both and fail to do so.

The compromise is that men need to help out around the house and with the kids since now women need to work too. It's not ideal but it's far better than women being dependent on a man to survive.

you'll stop seeing him as a tough invulnerable masculine man if he "relaxes* too much in front of you

this sounds like the worry of a feminine man pretending to be masculine. A masculine man by nature will always be masculine. It's in his nature to be stern and aggressive, it's not an act. When he is being sweet, kind, soft, cuddly, it is especially amazing because it is relatively rare.

It's like when the aggressive cat lets you pet it lol. You're "the chosen one" because when he leaves your lap, he's still stratching up everyone else. And sometimes he still scratches you, but you forgive him because it's his nature.

We've already discussed this though so i doubt anyone's mind is changing this time.

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Going against the grain here but I understand where you're coming from (kinda).

My dream partner is one who mirrors me in having seriously struggled in the past with personal issues but stormed through it and looks at life positively. So they have baggage, but they've dealt with it. But they relapse sometimes because difficulties in life don't just disappear overnight. These are moments when you're weak and vulnerable, and it's the time when I want to be there for them. Like an eternal safe space, a true candle to being lovers and partners for life. Similarly, I'd want them to do the same for me. It's not really unconditional love, because you're still always working and striving for the better of yourself and your partner, but in moments of weakness they are unconditionally there for you and they're like your eternal rock of support.

I'd imagine this is very hard to find though.

[–]chalkandapples1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have also grown up with unconditional love from both my mom and dad. I feel like if I did become a serial killer they will still love me and probably do everything they can so I won't get caught.

But I feel differently when it comes to romantic partners. My parent's brand of love is so exceptional and insane that I don't expect it from other people. Of course a parent's love is wonderful. My parents has been with me since I was born, was there when I was literately at my most vulnerable, it's decades of affection, investment, solvers of all problems etc. There's no way I can expect anyone else to compete or replace them.

A baby and small child needs this unconditional love because we're defenseless, we can't negotiate conditions or even know what they are. A child needs a completely solid foundation where they can be sure it cannot break, because it wouldn't know how to deal with it. But an adult is different. You know how to navigate the world now, you have all the tools to create and adjust your own environment so that it is stable. You can walk out of situations that you don't like, and recognize and defend yourself against injustices.

I already have parents, I don't want anyone to replace them nor could they be replaced. I can find someone else to love me in a different way, but parents are precious and irreplaceable because of their unique brand of love.

Your relationship with your parents is that your parents gives to you without reciprocation or expectations. Once you grow up, you take off training wheels and is now able to find a lover or partner. This time you need to learn to give back and love is both given and reciprocated. When you have a child of your own, it's now your turn to give love without reciprocation and expectations. That's how I think it should work at least.

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My understanding--could be off--is that the current state of evo psych does not believe that women generally had a 'dual mating strategy' that involved cuckolding the provider by having a baby with the hot guy and pretending it was the Beta's. Or maybe more precisely, that this may have been true at some point, but that we evolved out of it. Men got too smart. The move is a very dangerous move.

I believe that the more consensus idea now is that women do have a duality in their mating strategy, between good genes and good resources, but that it's just a tough tension women have to resolve as best they can with one partner at a time. What traits they decide to weigh more heavily depends on circumstance. However, women will mate switch if they can.

More about mate switching when possible rather than cuckolding. But I'm a bit behind on this. Mostly been following David Buss here. Welcome other insights.

[–]DaphneDK421 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The vast majority of mating & childbearing for the past several thousand (possible much longer) years have been taking place inside marriage. Especially, the vast majority of succesful childbearing. Girls typically married young. Sometimes very young (12yo was common in Ancient Athens, Ancient Rome, much of Medieval Europe, Renaissance Italy, Dutch Golden Age, etc.). It would have been an arranged marriage, where the girls would have little to no influence on whom they got to marry. The mothers did however.

I have a theory that this is an overlooked aspect. The mating strategy of females is less direct and more indirect - in controlling the mating of female offspring (males typically married later, had a little more control in their own choice), rather than their own mating. Female mating strategy By Proxy.

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I'm not splitting hairs. Have you forgotten that I'm married? Just because it's enabled doesn't mean you have to do it. Divorced people probably already got the snip and had the kids they wanted or something. There's no use in asking them too late. And it's totally plausible that at least one of the participants had no idea what would happen before they got married and had those babies. Their divorce wasn't "late," it was unexpected. You're full-on expecting it. And I'm not angry at you, I just don't get the consistency. How can you say life is beautiful and worthy to your children if you don't even make SOME kind of plan for who you're going to have them with, you just wait until someone gets pregnant? I've known women who have oopsie babies like that, it doesn't turn out pretty. Even if not marriage or a shared household, you have indicated to me that you don't make a plan AT ALL. I simply don't see how it's consistent. I'm more shocked than anything, surely not angry.

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[–]houstongradengineer1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think people should make an effort to know what would happen in the event of divorce, especially with the information. They shouldn't get messed up so bad. But you're not better than anyone just because you didn't get married. You still have shit that fucks you up- we all do. You became a parent unexpectedly to someone you didn't even know. You gonna tell me you didn't get fucked up and make some bad decisions that were avoidable? Really? You avoid responsibility just as bad as the other guys by making no plan whatsoever. Which that's fine if you're okay with that, I don't know you well enough to judge at all, and it probably wouldn't be my business. But it's just nonsense for you to judge other people doing the same thing.

I planned for contingencies is what I did. I already know I can't mess up kids because I won't have them. If I divorce, I'd have my career and my bestie and I'd either be celibate or try to date women. I'd probably seek therapy, too. No one will get messed up. Well, my husband is volatile. That man is one contingency no one can prepare for, unfortunately.

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For me personally there's a couple of things:

It's very difficult for me to relate to liking older men, or young men liking older women as well. There's a type of yuckiness that I feel when thinking about dating parental or mentorship figures, and I probably project that onto others. As I read more about other people's experiences though, I try to catch myself in this and try to respect that not everyone feels the same way I do.
Age gaps comes naturally with some power concerns. On average older people have more power and mental prowess simply because they have more life experience. A relationship is also a social contract between two parties, and each person is responsible for negotiating that social contract and ideally it's mutually beneficial. Although we say adults can do what they want, if I know that someone that's highly educated with better knowledge of the law is making a contract with someone that's uneducated, I would naturally worry. I'm similarly worried if a young man is dating an older woman for the same reason, I just see a higher likelihood of exploitation and therefore want to warn the weaker party. I don't really want to ban age gap relationships, I just want it to be more scrutinized to minimize the chances of someone taking advantage of another.
If a relationship implode and do damage both parties, the younger one has more to lose since they have more life left to live. The older person has a higher incentive to get into a relationship for immediate gratification, and is looking at a shorter timeline than the younger person. This is something that I also want the younger person to understand. So basically we have a contract between two people with one party on average being wiser, smarter, with more resources, AND have less to lose if it goes wrong. Just sounds dangerous.
This point is kinda philosophical and how I think about the world. Older people are supposed to have already lived that part of their lives, and their job is to guide the younger generation to live up to their highest potential. While it must be fun to re-live youth again by dating someone younger, it also kind of takes away from the young person experiencing that part of their growth organically because the older one is able to kind of carry them over lots of stuff they would otherwise experience. We're already carried as small children by our parents, I think you're missing something if you just go from parent to another parental figure. This is the part where I might be narrow sighted by my own limited experience, since this parental figure thing might be exactly what some people are looking for. But I don't think it's completely healthy to expect a lover to be a parent, those two roles are very fundamentally different and the source of love is different, and I think most people looking for parental love in lovers will be disappointed.

Again, I'm not against it, I feel like for some people/women, it could be a real lifeline, and the tangible value they get from it can exceed any of what I mentioned. I just think we should educate and guide young people a bit more in realtionships so they make an informed and wise decision. And practically, it's much less likely for a woman to be in an age gap relationship if she consults her parents often about relationships.

[–]purplish_possum1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]chalkandapples1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I see what you're getting at in the sense that it may be harder for an older person to bounce back from events if they have the same resources as the younger person, since they have less time to do the same thing. Individual cases may differ of course, but I'm looking at it from a population perspective. I expect an older person on average have more resources, mental fortitude, and support system compared to the younger person.

Generally, if you're going to be traumatized, you want to experience that trauma later. For example, a death of family members or friends is something that will hit a younger person much more than an older person, because that older person is more likely to have experience with loss. Similarly, a break up is much easier on older people than younger people since older people has likely experienced more break ups and relationship conflicts.

And also, even if you never recover from it before death, you still lived many more years of your life without that trauma. The life you lived before the relationship is still there. And if the trauma is so severe that it's irreversible, at least you have to live with that for less years.

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But that would be a reflection of my own biases, not a statement on the morality of the situation. It's not "wrong" for that bald 60 year old woman to hit on a young guy she finds attractive, at worst it's just "gross"...to a bystander who happens to find it gross.

Similarly a racist being disgusted by a mixed race couple doesn't signify that interracial couples are somehow inherently wrong. If it's just your personal opinion then why even mention it? Especially about strangers you don't even know. You're just telegraphing your bigotry at that point.

Edit: By the same logic if the scenario involved an attractive, younger-looking 60 year old woman then a lack of disgust wouldn't imply that the situation is somehow better. I feel like people's arguments about age gaps often get diluted by introducing lookism into these hypotheticals.

[–]houstongradengineer1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, you asked where the feeling of disgust was coming from. I should have thought that was obvious.

Now if you want to get into morality or the greater good, I have an opinions on age gap relationships that can be defended. No matter how the couple looks together- 10 to 15 years is a long time. In the eyes of a 20 year old hottie, even 5 years is literally forever. I would expect someone with my values, my intelligence, and my strengths to be living very much differently 15 years after 27. So if I met a 42 year old like me who was saving up for a house like I am, I'd be thinking "where the fuck have you been all these years?" Many young people are planning for a family, though not me. If an older person showed up planning for this- or planning to travel Europe for the first time- it would be very possible that this person is developmentally behind their desired younger companion. Give it another 15 years, and slowbro will still be holding back their partner. I take ethical issue with that. Or maybe the 42 year old HAD a family and got divorced or widowed, or maybe they ready traveled and got sick of it. Why would a youngster want to be tied to that? These things apply to relationships, and I don't consider quick ONS fucks to be "age gap relationships." Relationships don't get formed in a day or three.

[–]cvslengthbucketlist1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, you asked where the feeling of disgust was coming from.

That was someone else though.

If an older person showed up planning for this- or planning to travel Europe for the first time- it would be very possible that this person is developmentally behind their desired younger companion.

Wait what lol? If someone has never been to Europe or done something you've happened to have done that means they're developmentally behind? People have different priorities and timelines.

Which is why any critique of age gaps has to take into account individual preference and circumstance, and why asking things like "Why would a youngster want to be tied to that?" isn't very convincing as a general argument because we're also talking about women who are already past that question and okay with those caveats in the first place.

and I don't consider quick ONS fucks to be "age gap relationships.

So you think age gap ONS are not as bad? If so that's really interesting, you would expect someone to believe that both were equally manipulative because the "power/life experience imbalance" doesn't care about length of time. You can be manipulated into one-time sex, after all.

[–]houstongradengineer1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can be manipulated into one-time sex, after all.

So then you have some shitty sex, and you learn from it. Maybe next time you only go for hotter guys who make you come. Whatever, learning experience, life happens. Sure if asked I'll probably say "don't do anything you're not really sure you're comfortable with" or "wow you don't seem like yourself with him." But otherwise, if I'm not asked, I don't think it's a major battle worth picking.

But if you cancel that trip to Europe to take care of a sick old man? If you decide not to have children of your own because you are taking care of someone else's babies? Those are much bigger life decisions to be manipulated into- you can't take that back.

The reason I bring up traveling and kids and stuff like that is because you can't just easily shift the timeliness for that. You can't change the timeline on your career that much. If a 40 year old is behind, that's for a reason. Because he was too stupid to plan ahead, because he never really wanted the kids, something like that. You can't change those personality traits. There's a reason he's behind. In case you didn't see one of my main comments in that previous post: 15 years down the line, that old partner is still going to be dragging down the youngster. They can't suddenly get ready for kids or to travel again, they can't undo the kids they had or the assets they bought. Some things don't change. And yes- it's on a case by case basis- but it's really really hard to imagine a 40 year old who had a good reason for putting off kids so long, or a 20 year old who has the skills to become a stepparent. Some of these issues are almost nearly universal. Exceptions are so rare, and red pill men in particular really try to deny that or even claim the opposite.

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Using female logic to show women are only good for sex.

So, theres a guy, he has a good job and makes good money. He is with a woman. If he did not have this job/money, the woman wouldnt be with him, and thus women would say "shes only with him for his money".

Now, most already know where im going with this, but:

Most/nearly guys would leave their woman if they lost access to their pussy, and thus, using the same logic, that would mean everything boils down to the woman being able to provide hole, and therefore she is reduced to just being a hole.

Now there are two conclusions you can come to

Either all women are is hole, or attraction is multifaceted and cant be boiled down to a single trait, even if taking that away would end the relationship.

(This post is to show that either all women are good for is hole, or "she's only with you for your money" is (often) invalid).

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Why are we supposed to care what his wife looks like?

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[–][deleted]11 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CimZim2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link