Average guys just looking to hookup are 'shallow', but women doing it are 'empowered'

zaph239 · 2023-07-29T16:58:53+00:00

Just heard the perfect example of this on the radio. A women complaining that she found the dates she went on boring, so decided to arrange multiple dates on one days. All paid for by the men see was seeing, her empowered feminism didn't extend to actually paying for anything.

The level of entitlement this women displayed was astonishing and yet the program was acting as if she was the one getting the raw deal in the dating market.

Imagine the reaction of the modern feminist media, if a man came on with the same entitled attitude.

harmonica2 · 2023-07-29T17:11:02+00:00

If casual sex is empowering to women then how come women don't see men as helping women being empowered by giving it to them?

Cethlinnstooth · 2023-07-29T16:01:19+00:00

I personally do not care if people indulge in a shallow lifestyle of hookups. Just don't try to get me involved and we'll be fine. I respect the right to hook up with other eagerly consenting adults. Shallowness is your right and sooner or later everyone is shallow about something.

The problem with sexless low value dudes getting upset that they aren't getting casual sex is that usually they want respect for and even assistance with their desire to smash but have what seems very much like a lack of respect for other people's desire to not smash. In fact quite often those guys come across as somewhat rapey.

Another problem is that a lot of the time these guys have very little respect for the women they want to hook up with...which is just a bit gross. I mean if I said "oh I don't respect Indians at all but every time I want tasty Indian snacks I just go make friends with an Indian girl and express interest in the cuisine...lol btw what's with that dot stuff anyway so dumb just so backwards but at least they make nice mango chutney" then a lot of people would get rightfully upset at the shallowness of it all and think that if I really have that much trouble respecting a group I should just stay totally the fuck away from personal interaction with the people I can't respect and not try to get anything from them. If I want mango chutney go buy some don't fake liking an Indian girl. Well yeah...it's like that when some guys talk about getting casual sex. It grosses us out. It offends our basic values of personal interaction. I mean omg just go get a hooker don't lay in bed next to someone you neither like nor respect not even a little faking just enough to get your dick wet. Gross.

wtknight · 2023-07-29T15:23:46+00:00

I have a feeling that it's different women making these different arguments, and that men are reading it as women are a monolith when actually they are not.

I do think that it's hypocritical when a non-hook up woman has a friend who hooks up that she says is free to make that choice and doesn't criticize her, but then criticizes men for wanting to do the same thing when approaching her, though. However, I think what bothers these women most is when are deceptive about their intentions.

armpitpics · 2023-07-29T15:15:32+00:00

They are either two different groups of women, or they take an issue with how the guy does the approach. Many men approach hook ups as if the woman was diminished by them. Other men approach hookups in a desperate kind of way which might also be a turn off.

ForeverMaleficent993 · 2023-07-29T15:09:52+00:00

Bisexual woman here - I only judge liars and cheaters. Both men and women can have casual sex. I find women are more careful when doing it. They don't cross boundaries beyond sex and being in the moment but men will play games to get it. That is my experience between these genders. If you arent manipulative everyone has a great time.

96tillinfinity_ · 2023-07-29T15:37:20+00:00

It changes based on what narrative is needed to be pushed

Soggy_Head_4889 · 2023-07-29T16:41:20+00:00

Women have to use shame and guilt as tactics to manipulate men because of the size/strength difference. In the 10+ years I've been in the dating, casual sex, and relationship scene, it's clear to me that when a woman says a guy is an "asshole" he's usually not as bad as she makes him sound. It's usually code for him not giving her exactly what she wants. Women will also re-write history in their heads to fit whatever narrative they want.

A few months back I was casually seeing this girl and decided it wasn't worth the effort anymore so the next time she hit me up I gave her a call and told her I didn't want to continue hanging out. She lashed out over the phone going off about how I "misled" her into thinking she was basically my girlfriend even though we would hangout maybe twice a month and all we would ever do is get drunk at her place and fuck. I never took her on dates, never asked her out, never texted her other than to hit her up to fuck, never said she was my girlfriend, yet according to her I'm the massive asshole who "misled" her 🤡. The reality was out of the few guys she was likely talking to, I happened to be her favorite at the time and she was pissed off I didn't give her what she wanted.

If a girl says you're "shallow" or an "asshole" don't pay it any attention whatsoever and move on.

bluestjuice · 2023-07-29T15:12:55+00:00

Couple of things:

Wanting to hook up with likeminded consenting partners for fun sexytimes isn’t immoral but not everyone agrees with this. Slightly different populations of respondents with differing views on the morality of casual sex will account for some of this discrepancy.

The substantive question driving each of the examples you posted is different enough that it also makes sense that you would see this difference in response. Question 1 is about ‘why is a guy looking for hookups not having as much success as he hoped?’ Question 2 is about ‘why do women sometimes engage in casual sex?’ The emphasis of the responses reflects the question being asked.

TL;DR: both statements can be (and are) simultaneously true. Sex feels good to most women and most women enjoy it in the right contexts. And, many women desire meaningful connection as part of the context that puts them in the mood for sex with a particular partner.

Odd_Inevitable_7394 · 2023-07-29T15:47:01+00:00

Facts

controllrevival · 2023-07-29T21:32:01+00:00

Yeah dude of course, just stop caring. I did, I say all kinds of wild shit calling out gender hypocrisy. My girlfriend , my sisters , my mom and my coworkers are all people i love dearly , but all say hypocritical bs like this. It’s just me fighting this bs, my gf stays mad at me, but in her heart, I know she respect what I have to say and when I call stuff out, even if she gets mad temporarily

bikerider6969 · 2023-07-29T15:59:55+00:00

This is too true lmao

Soloandthewookiee · 2023-07-29T15:27:23+00:00

Average guys just looking to hookup are 'shallow', but women doing it are 'empowered'

No, this is an elementary take that is blatantly wrong. Women hooking up is not "empowerment," women having the ability to do so is empowerment.

Secondly, a man seeking casual sex is not de facto "shallow." The usual complaint is that men mislead women about what they want and/or treat women like sex toys. Several months ago I posted about how a woman who was looking for a fuck buddy on Tinder or Hinge of something was frustrated that every single guy that she matched with made zero effort to get to know anything about her and just sent a deluge of sexual messages. And when I posted about how dudes were shooting themselves in the foot by doing that, I was hit with waves of dudes insisting that treating a woman who wanted casual sex as a sex toy was totally normal.

When I was looking for casual sex with women, I always led with that. If they weren't interested, no worries, take care. It wasn't an issue. If they were interested, then I took the time to actually learn something about them. Again, it wasn't an issue.

Perfect-Resist5478 · 2023-07-29T15:44:36+00:00

It’s about intentions. Men who want to hook up and are honest about it are not an issue, cuz they’re being honest. It’s the men that say they want a relationship and then peace out after having sex that are being criticized

Nellylocheadbean · 2023-07-29T16:25:12+00:00

Probably because Average men typically lie & deceive about seeking casual sex. The reason why doesn’t matter. It’s just like a woman getting with a man for his resources and lying to that man to get to that point. Her reason why doesn’t matter because it’s still wrong regardless.

InjectAdrenochrome · 2023-07-29T17:54:07+00:00

I never met a guy who lied about just wanting to hook up so IDK about those guys. But generally speaking you get judged for wanting hookups whether you're male or female if you have prude friends. So just don't mention your hookups to prudes and you should be fine.

6DT · 2023-07-31T02:45:09+00:00

Generally speaking, the women describing casual sex as empowering are not the same ones describing sex as an act of meaningful connection. Their views on sex are different. It could be the same woman but usually at different parts in her life.

Female sexual freedom is not adopting the male model of sexual freedom and co-opting it. It's not empowering despite claims that it is. Female sexual freedom is access to birth control and abortions. It's any party being able to say no to any unwanted sexual act and that word be respected. It's any party being able to ask for or require a relationship definition if desired. A lot of the pervasive physical rejection of men is in direct response to emotional rejection of women. (and vice versa) A lot of men blame women saying no without acknowledging why they say it in a similar way a lot of women blame men for saying no to relationships. The lack of sexual intimacy killing a man's soul is objectively the same as the lack of emotional intimacy killing a woman's.

This is the heart of the matter. Freedom for women means freedom to choose in a way mostly unheard of in historic European and American cultures. Women are increasingly aware their value is inherent just like a man's value is inherent. Neither person's value comes from the opposite sex.

Also, your ideas are not mutually exclusive opposites. "Men actually desire meaningful connection, love and companionship. Sex just feels good to us guys too, full stop. We are not at all that different from women." Like... yes venting about men treating women poorly ("fuck meat") can be problematic in the same way that venting about women treating men poorly ("atm with legs") can be problematic. The venting about their woes is only a problem when it becomes specific e.g. "I am going to [violence] myself" or "I wish all [gender] were forced to [do x thing]."

where a guy is suspected for just wanting to 'score' a chick he is painted as 'shallow', even 'gross' sometimes, for lusting after a woman's 'body', sexual desire suddenly gets treated in puritan gloves as what should be a side piece to a relationship which needs to be justified by criteria not directly related to it.

How feminism harms men

gntlbastard · 2023-07-29T21:50:45+00:00

99% of the shit a woman says is just meaningless garbage. Nothing of importance.

Former_Molasses_7073 · 2023-07-29T15:42:01+00:00

Disagree because it's not limited to average guys at all. Women berate attractive men for being "assholes" or "pricks who just want sex". This is the post-rationalization for either rejection or failure to turn a hookup into a relationship.

but your correct on the woman part.

KayRay1994 · 2023-07-29T20:21:47+00:00

you’ve missed the point entirely - the issue isn’t with wanting to hook up, the issue is with being disrespectful and bitter about it.

The constant displays of jealousy, the shaming of others and so on all come to mind - just the general “why would she open her legs to chad ur not to me!!!!” entitled mentality. As for the disrespect, when many guys talk about hooking up, they talk about it as if they’re collecting pokémon, its blatant dehumanization

Peacesquad · 2023-07-29T20:43:02+00:00

Without a strong male figure in her life a woman’s life is destined for regret and chaos

Relative_Bee8356 · 2023-07-29T18:23:09+00:00

I don't think there's anything wrong with having/pursuing/wanting casual sex, regardless of gender.

I do think you are massively downplaying how those men talk about casual sex and the women you have it in an attempt to make this reaction seem like an issue of wanting casual sex and not an issue of being a nasty little loser.

I've thought about doing a Q4Men thread "What do you bring to the table as a casual sex partner" but idk if I want to see the levels of delulu it would bring out.

ace52387 · 2023-07-29T17:54:41+00:00

n count isnt that related to enjoying sex. thats more about being adventurous and/or fickle. you can have an n count of 1 and have sex 3 times a day.

i think youre also mixing opinions from 2 different groups of people. women who have casual sex wont like commitment (at that point anyway) and are probably fine with guys having casual sex. the ones that probably find it annoying are the ones who DONT have casual sex, want an ltr and stumbled upon a number of fboys.

beleidigtewurst · 2023-07-29T21:33:50+00:00

Such double standards are actually everywhere (e.g. take on domestic violence perpetrated by two genders, Netflix is showing ex wife punching husband as something that is totally OK)

Welcome to the real world, Ken.

Sorry that bar the apex of our social pyramid, that is thoroughly sprinkled with men (a number of which invested their lives into getting there) we actually live in a barbie world, where we are testing female only drugs in this very order: mice - dogs - chipms - men - women, because "society doesn't care about women".

evadingbanslol · 2023-07-29T16:07:23+00:00

Who gives a fuck what people think.

ta06012022 · 2023-07-29T19:09:55+00:00

women who don't like hookups when a average guy wants to hookup: “women actually desire meaningful connection, love and companionship, guys only see us as fuck meat”

women who do like hookups when explaining their n-count: “sex just feels good to us girls too, full stop. We are not at all that different from men”

Fixed it for you.

For whatever reason, red pill/black pill/whatever guys consider it hypocrisy for women to disagree with each other. In reality, it's only a double standard if the same woman criticizes men for wanting hookups while also engaging in hookups. It's not hypocrisy for some women criticize men for casual sex while other women have casual sex.

Yupperdoodledoo · 2023-07-29T15:55:36+00:00

The same person is saying both? Link the comments then.

EugeneCezanne · 2023-07-29T18:04:40+00:00

Nah. I've generally gotten the impression that wanting to hook up is fine with women, as long as you're not a liar, manipulator, creep or dick about it.

dyngladfel · 2023-07-29T18:30:29+00:00

Pm this sub it's definitely women who are slammed either way, keep up.

TSquaredRecovers · 2023-07-30T03:48:00+00:00

I don‘t really see this happening. What I do often see happening is men being revered or applauded for having a high body count, while women are criticized and demeaned and labeled sluts or hoes or whores for doing the same thing. It’s the same old song and dance. And it all amounts to hypocrisy.

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ezakustam · 2023-07-29T16:48:26+00:00

In statements like this, no one ever seems to add that both are pretty shallow, so it's inevitably taken as an attack on their supposed "empowerment."

januaryphilosopher · 2023-07-29T17:59:16+00:00

It actually stands out if a woman hooking up is reacted to even slightly positively because they're usually met with just shame. Even the way you phrased praise here is clearly just backlash against a default negative response. Men don't deal with this problem. Being criticised individually for wanting to hook up is the exception, not the rule, and it's usually for only wanting to hook up rather than doing it at all.

MyUpSeemsDown · 2023-07-29T18:57:02+00:00

Yea, but have you also notice that those two claims are blatantly contradictory most people realize and probably doesn't come from the same girls? LOL it is sucha problematic approach when you take two obviously opposite opinions of within one category of people, put them into one bigger category such as girls and then bash them a whole as if that'd achieve anything. Not every girls the same 1 girl.

Peacesquad · 2023-07-29T21:01:43+00:00

What did I miss

LessInformations · 2023-07-29T21:47:54+00:00

Not true at all. Most normal women understand that guys want casual sex, and they don't act weird about it.

In fact, they are creeped out when a guy does NOT want casual sex and refuses to hook up. That's when women are really grossed out (is he gay? is he mentally ill? is he religious? does he have a micropenis?).

Dstar538888 · 2023-07-29T22:51:06+00:00

Nobody gives a damn….

TerracottaBunny · 2023-07-30T04:14:03+00:00

It’s empowering in general to have control over your body. It is shallow, in general, to have casual sex…but that’s perfectly okay. Sometimes some safe, shallow, fun is perfectly fine.

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2023-07-30T09:08:46+00:00

It's a correction of the "slut/stud" perception of women vs men that sleep around. That's it.

Also I hate how many upvotes these posts usually pointing to a double standard suffered by men get vs the reverse. Always reminds me how imbalanced this subreddit is by pill/gender.

Nihi1986 · 2023-07-30T09:24:42+00:00

Everything men do can be considered bad even if it needs some twisting for that. Everything women do can be considered good, even if it needs some twisting for that.

I hope that one day we at least get to fully understand why this is happening and being encouraged. Irresponsible women and scared men... This benefits who? Anyway...

obviousredflag · 2023-07-30T11:22:04+00:00

This boils down to: women and men like to have casual sex at differnet rates and with different requirements for their sexual partner. You are just pissed that you are not part of the group that has casual sex. There are lots of women who don't like casual sex, but you pick the few promiscuos women and generalize their behavior over all women. Also, women generally enjoy to be desired for their bodies. The few women who have an issue with that are not the ones who have lots of casual sex. You are mixing up the groups who have different opinions and pain it like there is a double standard or a conflict in the viewpoints, while it's just differnet groups of people having those opinions.

Same with men and their need for low n-count women. The guys here who value non-promiscuous women paint it like that is all men or most of the men, while it's really not. The guys here also pick the few promiscuous women and generalize it over all women, while most women really have very low n counts and close to zero needs for casual sex.

HungerISanEmotion · 2023-07-30T18:05:54+00:00

Trashy men celebrate trashy male behaviours.

Trashy women celebrate trashy female behaviour.

Both of these have an agenda to push this behaviour as normal.

Because decent people call them out for the trash they are.

GlamSunCrybabyMoon · 2023-07-30T21:34:00+00:00

Men treat their hookups like shit.

Title	Average guys just looking to hookup are 'shallow', but women doing it are 'empowered'
Author	Johnny_Autism
Upvotes	298
Comments	270
Date	July 29, 2023 3:04 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/15cui00/average_guys_just_looking_to_hookup_are_shallow/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/average-guys-just-looking-to-hookup-are-shallow.1227145 https://theredarchive.com/post/1227145

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