Masculinity is not toxic, the lack of masculinity is.

SKY_ACTIV3 · 2021-08-30T18:24:14+00:00

Being a man is biology. “Masculinity” is a social construct. It isn’t real, it’s just a set of behaviors and expectations that we have traditionally associated with men because of biology and utility.

I shared my opinion with /u/0seagirl in the daily thread, but I’ll paraphrase here: the behaviors associated with masculinity are being challenged by the mainstream narrative, but many of the expectations aren’t. I’d venture a guess that this dissonance is what’s causing a good amount of problems and frustrations among young men today.

Bringing “good ol’ masculinity” back is a solution, but in my opinion it’s not a realistic or even appealing one for young men right now.

Aran82 · 2021-08-30T18:30:34+00:00

Every mass shooter seems to be a beta single mothers mess not a confident man.

0seagirl · 2021-08-30T12:18:22+00:00

I just made this post in the Daily Megathread, because this thread reminded me of the linked article from some time back (it always stuck around in my head for some reason).

I really wonder what you and other men here think of it.

Do you think that tradition needs a new overhaul? That we need to replace the old traditions of outdated masculinity with new ones? Do you think we need to go back to men reclaiming the old ones?

Interesting topic that I kind of don't get sick of seeing around here (I'm just going out on a limb here and assuming that the downvotes are as a result of people feeling this topic is overdone).

spinsterchachkies · 2021-08-30T17:48:49+00:00

I will try to explain it for you.

I dislike the term “Toxic Masculinity” because it sounds like an attack. Feminists have never been good at branding tbh. I prefer the term Performative Masculinity but I doubt there’s literature on it since I made it up. There is Toxic Femininity/ Performative Femininity as well.

The reason it’s called toxic masculinity is because someone is forcing, coercing, or shaming others to preform their gender role the same way they would.

This can be in a few forms:

When outside forces like your parents make you adhere to strict gender roles, and you begrudgingly go along.
If you are told don’t cry, don’t express feelings, etc…
If a friend of yours wants to do a hobby that isn’t typically masculine like knitting and you shame him and say he’s gay.

These are thoughts on the male and female gender roles and how people can liberate themselves from them IF they wanted to; completely optional; so they can be whatever kind of man they want to.

Anyways that’s why I use the term Performative Masculinity because it fits way better with the definition. Hope that helps a little

pecanspinwheel · 2021-08-30T13:35:12+00:00

Masculinity in general isn't toxic.

There is toxic masculinity, like teaching men they should suppress their emotions, or saying "boys will be boys" to absolve them of consequences, and then there is positive masculinity, like providing for a family, or mentoring young boys, or standing up for a stranger who is being harassed.

I don't know why so many people have a problem with the term -- seems to me it's better to highlight the few negatives that can be improved than to just say "all men are terrible point blank period."

Maxarc · 2021-08-30T16:22:23+00:00

I think you put too much emphasis on innate characteristics of masculinity, while overlooking many socially constructed aspects. You claim that men need good mentors and good father figures, which is absolutely true. But it disproves your point about it being some kind of innate natural phenomena. Since apparently, sons and young men need mentors to learn how to be properly masculine.

At this point it becomes a semantics game. What is "more" masculinity? If you mean taking responsibility for your actions or standing up for the weak, then sure that's a great aspect of masculinity that should be cherished and stimulated. However, the feminist argument isn't that masculinity is inherently bad, the argument is that it has toxic elements that need to be abolished. If you mean that more masculinity means better behaviour, then sure I think everyone can get behind that. Take Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings: he is typically seen as very masculine, but he does not posses traits of toxic masculinity. This isn't a question of more or less masculinity, it's a question about shitty behavioural patterns we constructed inside of that masculinity.

Elizamacy · 2021-08-30T17:07:25+00:00

I’ve personally always said that masculinity isn’t toxic but the preoccupation with it is

Megabyte7637 · 2021-08-30T21:25:53+00:00

Yep.

Perrenekton · 2021-08-31T08:01:28+00:00

I wonder if this is a language issue because as someone whose English is not the first language I never understood the wrong take on the term "Toxic masculinity". It always seemed pretty obvious to me that it never said that masculinity was toxic

Your last paragraph is the issue with the whole post : toxic masculinity already exactly means "toxic society expectations of masculinity in men"

Siukslinis_acc · 2021-08-30T18:24:58+00:00

So instead of "toxic masculinity", let's talk about the "toxic societal expectations towards men".

Doesn't "toxic masculinity" already mean "toxic societal expectations towards men"? At least that's how I understand the term.

protaganistic · 2021-08-30T19:31:09+00:00

I’m seeing a lot of this sentiment in this thread. Can someone explain to me why they thing toxic masculinity inherently blames all men?

To me, It’s just a term for the negative effects of the societal expectations on men. The term in itself does not assign blame.

WilliamWyattD · 2021-08-30T13:53:03+00:00

I think you are trying to articulate something I'd agree with, but not quite getting there.

So there are a cluster of far from fully understood innate biological characteristics in men that that are then mediated by culture that result in what we conceive of as masculinity. We don't fully understand the interaction between culture and biology here, but some of these masculine behavior patterns seem more culturally malleable than others.

So over time, different cultures have developed different conceptions of masculinity and what constitutes masculine behavior. Of course there are some core similarities in all of these conceptions, and some differences.

The key thing is that each culture has to mold its concept of masculinity such that it is adaptive to the environment that culture exists in, which includes the other aspects of the that culture itself. As intimated above, there are limits to what kind of masculinity a culture can create--biology is real! But there is room to maneuver, too.

So too much of the wrong type of of masculinity is bad. Too little masculinity of the right type is also bad. Toxic masculinity is definitely real--spend a day on a Wall Street trading floor.

So what we need to do is update masculinity for a new age, within biological constraints. And then work hard to inculcate it into our boys from a young age. Successful cultures have always needed to work hard to train their boys into men, and then help their men control, maintain and properly channel their masculine energies.

SnooCats37 · 2021-08-30T13:41:38+00:00

Toxic masculinity is telling men and boys they always have to be strong, they shouldn't cry, they shouldn't show weakness, to hide their emotions. Telling men and boys they have to be tough. When a group of lads are together goading each other into fighting because walking away is weak. To not talk about their feelings.

It's this that contributes to the suicide rate amongst young men. It's rape amongst men isn't talked about

I could keep going but you should get the point. This way of thinking is damaging

Slipthe · 2021-08-30T13:12:28+00:00

No true Scotsman. If it's toxic, then it can't be masucline.

So instead of "toxic masculinity", let's talk about the "toxic societal expectations towards men".

Yes this is true, most aspects of masculinity are influenced by what other people will think of you. Same with femininity. And those expectations define what it is to be masculine, good or bad.

And there are many things a father figure himself can do that could be considered toxic masculinity. Like a refusal to show affection to his children. Or a complete dismissal of his child's emotions and concerns.

NameGiver0 · 2021-08-30T20:24:20+00:00

You know how it’s bullshit? Because there’s no “toxic femininity”.

“Toxic masculinity” is just women trying to pin the blame for even the problems they cause on men.

You know who taught me to hide my feelings and vulnerability? Women who abandoned me when I didn’t.

Fleischpeitsch · 2021-08-30T15:36:56+00:00

Let's compare your solution to what people that criticize Toxic Masculinity talk about

https://www.cbc.ca/life/wellness/toxic-masculinity-may-be-quadrupling-the-suicide-rate-for-canadian-men-1.4158731

If gendering a mental health awareness day seems unnecessarily divisive to you, consider that the socially driven silence often stifling men from seeking help when they need it most yields an unpleasant stat: men are four times more likely to die by suicide than women in Canada and those numbers have been climbing for a decade. A recent study shows that the dark data points to one salient cause - toxic masculinity.

https://www the odyssey online com/toxic-masculinity-hurts-boys

The stereotypical ideal of masculinity generally promotes the image of a man as being dominant, muscular, a protector, and able to control his emotions. None of these traits are necessarily bad, and I’m not trying to attack them, but they create a very narrow definition of what masculinity is.

The masculine man only likes certain kinds of music, dresses certain kinds of ways, likes sports, has short hair, etc. Early on in a boy’s life, that kind of masculinity becomes a strong force that begins to pressure the boy to conform to that set of narrowly defined behaviors.

If a boy cries frequently, for example, he is shamed as not acting toward the standards that life set for him at his conception; he is made to feel that he is less than a man, that he must change his behaviors, his way of thinking, even maybe his personality to that standard. This boy is shamed until he changes, until he stops crying and learns to "control" his emotions and to think more "logically."

If the boy changes, he’s rewarded through external gratification; he’s praised as someone who has grown up into more of a man. On the other hand, if the boy doesn’t change, he’s criticized, sometimes bullied and harassed and made to feel like he is worse than what he’s supposed to be. Effectively, the boy isn’t allowed to be himself. This is when things start becoming "toxic" and harmful.

http://www.lovemeloveyou.org.au/blog/the-impact-of-toxic-masculinity-on-mens-health/

Traditional notions of masculinity often categorise it as a weakness if a man were to acknowledge that he has a health problem, and that it is not ok to talk about it or take action.

For this reason, men are often leaving it until crisis point to seek assistance for their mental health issues and are more likely to engage in risky behaviours that may be harmful in the long run.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/02/19/problem-toxic-masculinity-not-mental-illness/

Even those men who might be suffering from mental illness are unlikely to seek out counseling because it is often stigmatized as “weak” for men to seek out help and admit vulnerability. Among those who do make it into an therapist’s office or mental health program, domestic abusers are notoriously resistant to treatment protocols.

https://www.romper.com/p/9-ways-to-raise-your-son-without-toxic-masculinity-37717

Words have power, and terminology about masculinity can be dangerous. Overtime, hearing phrases like "be a man" or "real men don't cry" sinks into the subconscious. As CNN's Kelly Wallace explained, our culture doesn't do a good job of creating a safe space for boys to express their emotions without the fear of facing ridicule. Doing away with toxic sayings such as these remove the pressure from boys to hide feelings other than anger.

Any article about Toxic Masculinity is always about societal standards which are harmful to men and the blame always goes to anyone in society that pushes those harmful gender norms on men.

So, everything you said is already what the people that criticize Toxic Masculinity are talking about, as they are criticizing those toxic societal expectations towards men.

Nihi1986 · 2021-08-30T14:15:36+00:00

Is 'toxic feminity' a thing, though??

Anyway, certain traits and behaviours traditionally associated to masculinity can be toxic. So perhaps we should redefine masculinity, but I don't think the answer is adopting femenine traits.

The best answer to the problem is simply what the op says, we need more models of functional, socially acceptable masculinity.

DonQOnIce · 2021-08-30T16:32:23+00:00

Can you expand on what positive violence is?

SomangoXXL · 2021-08-30T20:13:36+00:00

This is old news and it's already been said a million times. This sub seems to be full of people who love to repeat shit. There's absolutely nothing here that hasn't been said before.

Naus1987 · 2021-08-30T21:24:33+00:00

I always agree that positive masculinity is awesome. Being like captain America or Superman. The guy who’s brave and ambitious and always doing the right thing!

That you can double down on heroic masculine traits and still be a great person.

And that toxic masculinity is that insecure bullshit you see a lot. Tom is embarrassed that people might think he’s guy, so he lashes out aggressively. That’s not real masculinity. That’s a coward too afraid to own his choices that he takes it out on society.

That kind of toxic insecurity masculinity def needs to stop.

youarockandnothing · 2021-08-30T22:41:25+00:00

You are right, not sure why so many people are disagreeing.

unfknblvbe · 2021-08-30T23:42:56+00:00

Damn i dont have alot to contribute to this thread but it is wholesome asf to see people smarter then me sum up my life experiences

I-Fail-Forward · 2021-08-31T00:51:41+00:00

>The issue is "toxic masculinity". I assume (and do correct me if i am wrong) that not many people really know what exactly the term refers to. Even if we do know, my problem is, that the term automatically assumes, that the problem is with masculinity, or some part of it, which is not true at all.

The problem is with behaviors typically considered to be masculine.

Sure, if you redefine gardening to be a masculine behavior, there is nothing toxic about it, but thats also not an argument in good faith.

>The problem is not with masculinity, the problem is how a given society relates to men and boys. Therefore the term is inapplicable. Some societal expectations are toxic, not some aspects of masculinity.

Masculinity is social expectations of men and boys, your statement is self contradictory.

>Sure enough, men are more prone to violence

Actually, no.

Men are not more prone to violence, men who grow up in societies where they are expected to be violent are more prone to violence.

>but no man (or woman) was born to be a psychopath (edit: sociopath)... Violence for example, is a "tool" that can be used for good or for bad. "Bad" or "good" is not inherent to human beings. Wether someone turns out to be a valuable member of society or a fugitive, it depends on their upbringing and environment.

This has nothing to do with masculinity.

>If boys and young man can not channel their masculine energies correctly, if they are not shown ways to use their violence for good, if they have no real life examples (eg. fathers) as to what does it actually mean to be a Man, they do not learn the importance of honor, the respect of others, how to control their emotions, their rage, their anger, how to behave in position of power, how to be humble, how to trait and deal with women, how, when and where they can show weakness etc. .. They will be vulnerable to corruptive ideas and lifestyle.

None of these are what are taught tho, these are all things that "masculine" men eschew or corrupt.

>Bad people are made, not born.

Yes, bad people are made by a society that teach boys to be "masculine" in the worst possible ways.

>Single parent households are insufficient to "produce" healthy children, every single research shows that these kids will have numerous disadvantages, boys even more then girls.

This is not the fault of the single parent household, the disadvantages mostly relate to the kids being bullied, or socioeconomic disadvantages because single family homes are disproportionately poor, or lack of parenting because the single parent is spending 10+ hours a day working because single family homes are disproportionately poor.

>We can not erase the "bad" side of masculinity, because the attributes ARE inherent,

No, they are not.

>nd by trying we are only going to produce a bunch of disfunctional men, full of confusions.

Evidence?

>We must tech boys how to be masculine and how to use it for good.

No, we must teach boys to be people, without distructive ideas like "men are naturally violent"

>We must keep fathers around,

No, an abusive father is about the worst possible role model, a home were the parents are constantly fighting is an awful place to raise children.

>we must find mentors and role models, we must have more male teachers.

We must pay them better

>We need more masculinity, not less.

Please dont teach any children near me about how "men are violent"

>But before anything, the gender war must stop, and the use of inappropriate terminologies must cease.

There is no gender war, and the terminology is perfectly appropriate

>So instead of "toxic masculinity", let's talk about the "toxic societal expectations towards men".

There is literally no difference between the two, except that you think the latter makes teaching kids toxic bullshit like "Men are naturally violent" a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

Shenaniboozle · 2021-08-31T02:47:58+00:00

An interesting take, but I cant help but think the core issue is actually whether or not a man actually matures into an adult or not. This is more about if one learns how to function in society, learn self control, become a decent person.

Im not saying youre wrong, but I dont think what youre describing is a problem of masculinity.

Its unchecked aggression teamed up with massive self doubt/insecurity over their place and purpose. I have seen women who exhibit these same problems, rage, inability to admit weaknesses, and just the usual bag of negative traits that makes someone awful to be around. The biggest difference being that the average man is just better (yay?) than the average woman at acting out the physical side of this.

Otherwise, Id be hard pressed to disagree with any of your points. Especially households where ideal male behavior is not being modeled, less than idea behavior can be produced.

Flintblood · 2021-08-31T03:13:59+00:00

Toxic masculinity is when a male’s beliefs about what it means to be masculine leads to maladaptive behavior. Examples could include believing that you can never be shown up or admit you’re wrong, or keep your female partner from working because you are afraid she will make more money. It has nothing to do with casual male traits or cis behavior like being competitive in work (good natured ) or making comments to your friends about women you find hot.

sinisterforces · 2021-08-31T07:42:58+00:00

I think as such: in a society that doesn’t value any masculinity will still not result in a complete lack of it because it is still natural for humans. What happens is that the good dissapears, the bad remains.

Perseus_the_Bold · 2021-08-30T19:19:50+00:00

Toxic Masculinity is a feminist narrative tool (a device to tell a story) which is meant to place the blame for the ills that befall the human condition (the question of Evil) entirely on the shoulders of men and simultaneously exempt themselves from all accountability.

Furthermore they employ the term in a way that it implies that men are defective creatures that can be fixed. That the Masculine is et of traits that can be picked and chosen at the whim of feminism as if Masculine character were a buffet from which women can simply pick and choose:

"I'll have a bit of Chivalry, a little bit of Provider, and eww. I don't want none of that aggression or competitiveness. A sprinkle of assertiveness please but hold back on the insecurities that come naturally with navigating any strange new environment. I want my Build-A-Man to be perfect without any of that pesky Humanity or pershonhood that is essential to grow a boy into an adult."

This is why the concept of toxic masculinity is so immensely perverse and utterly offensive to men. And the fact that women do not comprehend how it is deeply offensive says more about the attitude that women have towards men than anything else.

They refer to any trait that they disagree with as "toxic," which is from their feminist point of view. So a man being assertive for a woman's benefit is deemed "benevolent," but the necessary aggression needed to be assertive is deemed toxic. The way that feminists got around this cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy is by coining yet another term "benevolent sexism."

In this way men can never be equal moral agents with women because it establishes the narrative that men are evil by default (perpetual sexists) but that our evil can be harnessed for good if women only learn to manipulate us in just the right way and benefit from our benevolent sexism - which, make no mistake, is still sexism in their eyes. Therefore a man can never do good, because even when he is he's only doing so under the guiding moral consent of women; men are never innately good and never will be. This is the feminist narrative.

decoy88 · 2021-08-30T19:13:21+00:00

Do people not understand how adjectives work? The education system is lacking.

CrackLover420 · 2021-08-30T16:26:24+00:00

Toxic masculinity is just a misandrist term. Just think, what other demographic can you summarize all their worse tendencies (which aren’t even necessarily endemic to that demographic) and then hold the entire demographic responsible for it? If you did that with black people, you’d be labeled a racist, if you did it with women, you’d be a sexist. Moreover, toxic masculinity is often invoked just to hand wave away many issues that involve men instead of taking an actual critical look at things.

gwayvee · 2021-08-30T17:59:19+00:00

I think you misunderstand what is meant by “toxic masculinity” OP

What the term originally referred to is the manipulative pressure on men to behave a certain way for fear of being seen as effeminate/weak/“”gay””/etc

“Toxic masculinity” is a new way to refer to the expectation that all men HAVE to be like macho man randy savage level manliness, or chuck norris, stone cold no emotions chauvinist bread winner as the standard.

It’s unfair for men to be forced into such a standard, and a few years ago when the rise of the use of the term “toxic masculinity” really started to rise across the internet, it was used in a way to liberate men from its constraints. To let men know it is okay to be non traditional/not-hardcore-macho.

Words have the meaning we allow them to have, if you don’t like the connotation the term is taking on then just refuse to let it have that. Stand for what you believe in and do not waiver to peer pressure- especially not to peer pressure from social media.

Luna320 · 2021-08-30T12:35:52+00:00

I believe it’s as damaging as toxic femininity which needs to be talked about more

FuckWhatYallThink · 2021-08-30T14:21:23+00:00

The real problem is men aren’t allowed to just… be.

Toxic feminity. Toxic Japanesity. Like just try saying it. It sounds offensive dumb and racist/sexist etc… UNLESS the target is straight white males (ie any demo that predominantly votes republican)

That is not a coincidence. That’s a result of academic and cultural brainwashing, the steady of work of woke cultural marxists over decades.

The human brain is not naturally geared to hate its own tribe, its own kin. But enough social pressure and it will crack. Thats what happened to the modern liberal white soyboy. Ie, the average redditor.

The only “problem” here is leftist indoctrination. Males bad. Dominant groups bad. Minorities good. They try to counter racism/sexism with racism and sexism flowing in the opposite direction, instead of just plain boring equality

4derp · 2021-08-30T14:09:33+00:00

Even engaging with stupid concepts such as "toxic masculinity" is playing a poison game. People inventing these terms need to grow up and get a job.

BumblingBeta · 2021-08-30T14:30:59+00:00

Toxic masculinity = men don't do things women want them to do.

If an ugly man approaches her, that's toxic masculinity. If a hot man rejects her, that's toxic masculinity. If a man doesn't pay for the date and opts to split the bill, that's toxic masculinity. If a man doesn't step up and raise the kids of a single mother, that's toxic masculinity.

As you can see, it's all just shaming language to get you to do what women want and fit in with their agenda. I can't believe so many men are falling for it.

Fleischpeitsch · 2021-08-30T15:30:14+00:00

Everything you said simply shows that you have no idea what you are arguing against.

Criticism of Toxic Masculinity isn't an attack on masculinity, but on exactly those harmful societal expectations.

The problem is not with masculinity, the problem is how a given society relates to men and boys. Therefore the term is inapplicable. Some societal expectations are toxic, not some aspects of masculinity.

Those societal expectations that are toxic = toxic masculinity

We must tech boys how to be masculine and how to use it for good. We need more masculinity, not less. We must keep fathers around, we must find mentors and role models, we must have more male teachers.

That's exactly what people that criticize Toxic Masculinity are also saying: boys need better masculine role models

But before anything, the gender war must stop, and the use of inappropriate terminologies must cease. So instead of "toxic masculinity", let's talk about the "toxic societal expectations towards men".

Those are the exact same things though, as Toxic Masculinity refers to the toxic societal expectations towards men.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/masculinity

the characteristics that are traditionally thought to be typical of or suitable for men

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/de/worterbuch/englisch/masculinity

Masculinity means the qualities that are considered to be typical of men.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/masculine

having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

Masculinity (also called manhood or manliness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with men and boys.

Masculinity refers to gender norms which society considers to be appropriate for men.

The term Toxic Masculinity is a combination of toxic (harmful) and masculinity (gender roles that are pushed on men), so it refers to exactly the "toxic societal expectations towards men" which you for some reason consider to be something else than "toxic masculinity"

SaBahRub · 2021-08-30T14:29:37+00:00

Just because moderation is good doesn’t meant excess is good too

We don’t tell people that any amount of X is ok, do we?

And yes, women are totally partly to blame for it

goneaway2thewind · 2021-08-30T18:14:54+00:00

Masculinity can manifest in toxic ways, full stop. I don't know if you understand what it's like to be abused or bullied but male aggression can have unnecessarily painful effects on others. That doesn't mean all masculinity is bad, but there are toxic sides to it that should be acknowledged and mindful of.

Im_The_Daiquiri_Man · 2021-08-30T18:41:47+00:00

Just today this shit comes out and frames inceldom, which is fucked up, as purely a product or “toxic masculinity” rather than daring to go even a single step deeper into the alienation of young men that’s taking place.

This is what people mean with the framing and shaming language.

Instead of analyzing the dehumanizing effects of social media and online dating, the lack of socialization and male spaces, treating boys like defective girls, the conflicting messages, and the shaming of male sexuality in general which leads a lot of these guys into dark corners of the internet, the discussion of any real difficulties young men face is de facto misogyny unless it boils down to “‘men are bad for wanting X”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-sex-and-relationships/202108/the-incel-problem?amp

Chiyuki_Fujiwara · 2021-08-31T05:01:28+00:00

The term "toxic masculinity" refers to the toxic aspects of what's considered masculine. We do not argue about sex or the gender idea itself when we're talking about "toxic masculinity". It already means those "toxic societal expectations towards men" and their conditioning for it. You just seem upset abt how aggressive the wording sounds towards men, which I can agree with, but unfortunately, it is what it is right now.

bronzeageretard · 2021-08-30T12:24:05+00:00

Bringing up Toxic masculinity is simply womanipulation

Plopolok · 2021-08-30T12:08:50+00:00

If you describe masculinity as "good masculinity", then masculinity is good, sure. But we can't raise boys to be good men anymore, given the current state of the SMP. If you're respectful, honorable and humble, you'll stay single.

midwestufohunter · 2021-08-30T15:42:50+00:00

This isn’t what toxic masculinity means.

Toxic masculinity means masculinity itself is not toxic.

There are bad cultural beliefs like “boys don’t cry” that we try to shove onto men and boys that is not masculinity at all. That’s what toxic masculinity is.

mantapacktribe · 2021-08-30T22:46:11+00:00

We can not erase the "bad" side of masculinity, because the attributes ARE inherent

lol. i'm a man and i like things such as pop music, fashion, fragrances and makeup. when i was a little boy i preferred to play princess with the girls rather than with cars with other boys.

tell me more about inherent attributes of masculinity.

guavaberries3 · 2021-08-31T05:26:57+00:00

women are fucking toxic. men are simple: we hate each other and want to kill each other but cant because of the law. women just wanna create drama and make shit toxic.

JumboJetz · 2021-08-30T17:03:25+00:00

I see almost nothing worth liking about masculinity.

Violence and aggression are horrible things.

masculinity tells men to seek out sex with many women which ultimately just has the effect of just about all men having less sex (if everyone wants something, basically nobody gets it).

Masculinity tells men that caring about the environment is gay and real men eat tons of meat and drive giant pickup trucks. And the planet is dying as a result.

The current form masculinity takes is just awful and there’s almost no positives.

Readyornote · 2021-08-30T18:02:15+00:00

but no man (or woman) was born to be a psychopath, people are born psychopaths

tthere are some toxic attributes and traits to Masculinity, violence, and disrespect for women for example. Masculinity needs to be changed, not to increase it.

velvetunderground111 · 2021-08-30T19:47:17+00:00

I think I can get behind this in terms of: men 18-26 should be out with their friends, being boys/men, dating women and generally living it up. And the incel culture of sitting at home playing video games, which is the opposite of being a young guy or what a young guy should do, is toxic. Because then you end up with an Elliot Rogers type of kid who goes insane from lack of female interaction.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-08-30T23:13:44+00:00

If men’s idea of masculinity is to be a violent sex-obsessed sociopath, then masculinity will be seen as toxic.

AreOut · 2021-08-31T06:38:15+00:00

it's just a stupid term made by women to manipulate men (more news at 11)

_Neon_Shadow_ · 2021-08-30T15:38:52+00:00

Even as a guy its impossible for me to deny toxic masculinity is a thing. People like OP are just butt hurt because they think it means men bad without understanding anything. Toxic masculinity is a thing that is taught and unlearning it would be helpful to most men.

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mackenzie013_02 · 2021-08-30T14:41:41+00:00

Psychopaths are indeed born, sociopaths are made.

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-08-30T14:41:44+00:00

I don't see the point in classifying masculinity or femininity (or the lack of) as toxic. Toxic people are toxic because they feel threatened in some way and thats it.

Goodthingstartssmall · 2021-08-30T17:27:09+00:00

You can make nuanced definitons all day long. All what matters is how this is applied in the real world and then shaping the reality. And the sad reality is that "toxic masculinity" these days is usually every instance when a women doesn't get her way because of one or several men. Justified or not matters less and less.

flapperfemmefatale · 2021-08-30T17:30:55+00:00

I bet you know who the true Scotsmen are, huh?

superlurkage · 2021-08-30T20:01:45+00:00

No, they/feminists just need to stop calling it that.

Although maybe it was done because “performative masculinity” is straight up boring as a term, if more accurate

Umbran_scale · 2021-08-30T22:50:02+00:00

I think the biggest change needed is that men and women need to stop defining what the opposite gender should be like.

women don't get to decide 'what a real man is' and men don't get to decide 'she should be more ladylike.'

Rorschachiko · 2021-08-30T22:58:32+00:00

We can not erase the "bad" side of masculinity,

We can not erase the "bad" side of femininity, which is evolutionary psychology quotes the hypergamy, the looking for the best genes. But no one gives a fuck. I kinda consider myself as a masculine guy, but you due to some chicks and their so called feminine nature and hypergamy biology, ended up using my so called toxic side in any social interactions.

I'm not disagreeing. But as you said the major problem resides on the bitchass society. Just to mention had to slept on an infidelity episode. But get publicly executed by the same girl when I was making a new friend with opposite sex. Seems legit. But sincerely not to me.

poppy_blu · 2021-08-30T23:14:55+00:00

use their violence for good

We need more vigilantes.

nyamina · 2021-08-31T03:56:42+00:00

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's just masculinity, which is toxic.

Think about it, what features of 'positive' masculinity are actually masculine? They could apply to anyone. Any time I hear the term masculinity, I think of it as a negative.

toxicboy4lyf · 2021-08-31T10:00:31+00:00

My whole identity is "toxic masculinity". And irl i have no issues with women. Yet i fit the definition perfectly. These terms are just stupid. But they are funny though.

Masculinity is not toxic, the lack of masculinity is.

Comments

believemen

Title	Masculinity is not toxic, the lack of masculinity is.
Author	EstablishmentKooky50
Upvotes	246
Comments	487
Date	August 30, 2021 11:40 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/pegdhl/masculinity_is_not_toxic_the_lack_of_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/masculinity-is-not-toxic-the-lack-of-masculinity.1066191 https://theredarchive.com/post/1066191