This double standard infuriates me

[–]fengpi 1352 points1353 points1354 points 9 years ago (171 children) | Copy Link

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[+]AtomicFlx points 9 years ago [recovered] (39 children) | Copy Link

will expose the girls to social exclusion

The real question here is, how often are women in the Sudan showing off their genitals? Is this a common issue? Do they just get together for tea and show each other and compare their genitals? Where would their social exclusion come from?

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Rural KS. Went to a school that did not have AC and had just recently gone from well water and a cistern to rural water. If that helps place how country we where.

There was always a major difference in pointing out oddities of another guy, " Jesus Frank, how the hell do you run with that thing ?" and being weird about it.

Come to think of it though I grew up with a obviously gay kid and none of us really cared about it. We gave the creepy kids more shit for being "fags" than we did the kid we all assumed was really gay. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we where all exposed to the Felps cult, and I honestly believe they did more to make people except gays than anything else in our area. Everyone knew the Felps where evil and so we just said to hell with it and stood on the opposite side of any issue they talked about.

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Don't take this as an endorsement, just sharing what I heard on Law & Order followed up by some research:

In simple terms, it is meant as a reminder not to be a slut and that the long-term security of focusing on providing for a family (and your ability to communicate that to a potential partner and their family) will benefit you in the long term over the short term or periodic and fleeting enjoyment of sexual gratification. This can be said of both "mild" FGM where only abrasion is applied all the way up to clitoral removal.

I can at least appreciate that I can't understand what it must be like to live in Sudan where you get to see the effects of marginal survival on a daily basis. We are very lucky here that individuals can explore career, educational, and sexual lives with little permanent consequence, but I can empathize that you NEED to take advantage of every little advantage available to you just to survive.

And for Grandparents, there will be a huge survivorship bias. Having lived that long they are certain to view that their cultural standards are a necessity to survival. Threatening that culture is to threaten their entire bloodline.

It is terrible. WE know there is a better way. Sudan is a completely different world from the US. If within the next 100 years they can achieve a standard of living the US saw 100 years ago, that would be such a blessing.

Can you even imagine what you wouldn't do to help your children survive to the next generation under those circumstances?

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*pay hee harr hee

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More men than women are in favour of it

Yup. And the sainted Roe v Wade decision was handed-down by mehnz in black robes, but the feminists never wish to acknowledge the fact that they had dicks.

But if you have a moral objection to abortion-- or even wish to have it restricted even slightly? The first goddamned thing the feminists will point-out is your penis and proclaim that you have no business opinionating on the matter whatsoever. Nope, your penis means you have no business opinionating on a holy opinion from evil penises 40 years ago, the sanctity of which must be defended from penises at all costs. So your penis disqualifies you from even talking about it, unless you are defending it, and even then they hold their noses and sneer at you to keep your mouth shut.

Oh yes, and the abortion doctors who've been shot tended to have penises too, but never you mind.

They really are scrambled 8 ways from Sunday on this.

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Yah, nothing says sexy like [this] (https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-06/18/6/enhanced/webdr08/enhanced-buzz-wide-6590-1434625022-9.jpg)

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I like my circumcised dick. I feel like its super aesthetic.

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probably helps a few out with PE?

Nope. Just the opposite, in fact. Most research on the subject has found that circumcised foreskin correlated with premature ejaculation more than intact foreskin. O'Hara & O'Hara (1999) reported more premature ejaculation in circumcised men. Masood (2005) reported that circumcision appeared to make premature ejaculation worse. Richters (2006) found that the rate of "reaching orgasm too quickly for at least one month in the previous year" was 20% higher for circumcised men (26% of circumcised men). Tang & Khoo (2011) found circumcision correlated with premature ejaculation. Bollinger (2011) found that "circumcised men are 2.56 times more likely to suffer from premature ejaculation, and, when the data were adjusted to include erectile dysfunction, that risk rose to 4.88 times".

I knew a guy who was uncircumcised, but had a thing where his boners were painful. He had an awkward first handjob. He had to get circumsized later and it cost a lot.

Phimosis, the overwhelming majority of cases can be fixed non-surgically. Sucks for that guy, but many doctors are extremely ignorant and jump straight to cutting.

100 deaths a year just lends more support to my idea that this isn't a major issue

100 deaths a year as a result of a totally unnecessary surgery isn't a big deal?

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Might wanna be careful saying that. I admitted here once that I was circumcised and not upset about it, and I got nasty PMs saying I am a victim of torture and abuse and should hate my parents.

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They are projecting their victim-complex, like nearly everyone in this sub

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[+]Nexys80 points 9 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

That's how I feel. At the end of the day, I can't tell another guy how to feel about his own dick. That's his dick, his emotions, and his business. But, to tell me that I am a victim of torture and abuse (which I don't feel I am) and that my parents are horrible? Well, that's just crossing the line.

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What if he does question it? Are you prepared to have that conversation with him, knowing that your answer won't be satisfactory? The fact that you don't mind makes no difference to how your hypothetical son might feel about it. If he does express regret, will you just tell him "tough shit"? If you're "happily circumcised", rather than being indifferent, then is it really so difficult to believe that your son might feel the opposite way? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Hell, adults who get tattoos sometimes come to regret it, and no one forced them to get inked, it was their decision. With that in mind, is it beyond the realm of possibility that a man be not be thrilled about a more-than-likely, completely unnecessary body modification that he didn't even choose? I can even provide examples of grown men who've chosen to get circumcised, and regretted it because it's not the same.

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I am indifferent on circumcision personally, but there are some actual benefits to performing it (health maintenance). There are no health benefits in FGM.

With that being said you are entirely correct that circumcision is performed primarily in America and mostly as part of "tradition".

People have missed the big anti-circumcision argument which is malpractice. Circumcision DOES provide health benefits, and IS performed mostly in Western world because of tradition. However, when malpractice does occur - the outcomes are bad. Those babies are born with significantly shortened and abnormal penises because too much was taken off lengthwise and/or girth-wise. This creates many problems for those individuals healthwise AND socially.

The malpractice incidence is without a doubt the biggest concern regarding circumcision.

[–]Consilio_et_Animis4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are no health benefits in FGM.

Wrong #fakenews:

There are many medical "benefits" to female circumcision; and if it's performed in a modern hospital with doctors etc., (like in Egypt) the "risks" are minimal.

We need to enlighten parents with benefits of female circumcision, so they can consider this amazing medical advance for their infant daughters. Time to get slicing those little vulvas!

1: 50% of all vulval cancer originates on the inner labia lips — so if you hack those off, vulval cancer is reduced by 50%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulvar_cancer

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/statistics-by-cancer-type/vulval-cancer/incidence#heading-Two

2: 1 out of 50 girls will be born with labial adhesions, where the inner labia lips are fused together. Hack those off at birth — and no more labial adhesions.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/labial-fusion/Pages/Introduction.aspx

3: Labial hypertrophy can affect the inner and outer labia, and is where girls have bigger than average size labia — either one or both sides. Some young women will complain of a bulge in their underwear and an uncomfortable feeling with certain kinds of tight fitting clothing or when they are doing activities such as riding a bike, running, horseback riding or other kinds of activities that can cause rubbing of the genital area. Enlarged labia can cause irritation, discomfort, and pain in the crotch area. Irritation around the vaginal area can also be caused by chronic vaginal yeast infections, and large labia tend to hold extra moisture and bacteria often times resulting in more Urinary Tract Infections (UTI’s). Intercourse may or may not be uncomfortable. Slice them off when they are baby girls and get it out of the way early!

http://youngwomenshealth.org/2013/07/16/labial-hypertrophy/

http://vaginalabiaplasty.com/medical-reasons-to-seek-labiaplasty/

4: Clitoral phimosis is present in 22% of women presenting with sexual health problems. This is where the clitoral prepuce/foreskin cannot be retracted to expose the external glans clitoris. This is linked to sexual pain, and possibly diminished sensitivity and impaired orgasmic capability.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11898701?dopt=Abstract

5: Women are 10 times more likely to get UTIs then men, as they have many folds of mucus membranes in their vulvas, and produce around 10 times as much smegma (a very healthy and natural excretions of the human body). These mucus membrane folds of tissue harbour the bacteria that cause UTIs — so if you hack-off the labia lips (and the clitoral hood) of females, you have a very good chance of reducing UTIs. (But this is not the case with infibulation as that increases the rates of UTIs).

And the same maybe goes for other infections and STDs.

6: Cunnilingus (oral sex) with women can give a man HPV (human papilloma virus) and this can trigger throat cancer in the man. So again, reducing the amount of vulval tissue that harbours the HPV virus might well decrease the chances of the man getting throat cancer.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/hpv-transmission-during-oral-sex-a-growing-cause-of-mouth-and-throat-cancer-201306046346

7: And here's the big one: FGM has been shown to reduce HIV/AIDs infection by 50-60%:

"Stallings et al. (2005) reported that, in Tanzanian women, the risk of HIV among women who had undergone FGC was roughly half that of women who had not; the association remained significant after adjusting for region, household wealth, age, lifetime partners, union status, and recent ulcer."

Note: when it's found that circumcising female genitals reduces HIV/AIDS it's called a "conundrum" rather that a wonderfully exciting "medical" opportunity to reduces HIV/AIDS.

http://www.iasociety.org/Default.aspx?pageId=11&abstractId=2177677

"Georgia State University, Public Health Theses" — a USA University of international renown:

The Association between Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) and the Risk of HIV/AIDS in Kenyan Girls and Women (15-49 Years):

"RESULTS: This study shows an inverse association (OR=0.508; 95% CI: 0.376-0.687) between FGM and HIV/AIDS, after adjusting for confounding variables."

"DISCUSSION: The inverse association between FGM and HIV/AIDS established in this study suggests a possible protective effect of female circumcision against HIV/AIDS. This finding suggests therefore the need to authenticate this inverse association in different populations and also to determine the mechanisms for the observed association." "This study investigated whether there is a direct association between FGM and HIV/AIDS. Surprisingly, the results indicated that the practice of FGM turned out to reduce the risk of HIV. While a positive association was hypothesized, a surprising inverse association between cases of female circumcision and positive HIV serostatus was obtained, hence indicating that FGM may have protective properties against the transmission of HIV."

http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1113&context=iph_theses

"National Bureau of Statistics, Tanzania - 50% reduction in HIV/AIDS in women who have have parts of the genitals amputated:"

http://www.tzonline.org/pdf/femalecircumcisionandhivinfectionintanzania.pdf

"Department of Cancer Biology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA" — a USA University of international renown:

A history of FGM decreased the risk of HIV-2 infection:

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/21712473_Prevalence_and_risk_determinants_of_human_immunodeficiency_virus_type_2_(HIV-2)_and_human_immunodeficiency_virus_type_1_(HIV-1)_in_west_African_female_prostitutes>

[–]possiblyhazardous0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Circumcision DOES provide health benefits...

Sure 😉 Thanks Daddy! "LOL":

Male circumcision causes terrible damage to the male penis, and psychological problems that can last a lifetime. It's no surprise circumcision for purely "medical" reasons in confined to the USA and a few other countries.

In western Europe there is now a growing movement to outlaw it as genital mutilation, on a par with FGM.

Note: The vast majority of these links from reputable scientific journals, with peer-reviewed research.

1: Women prefer intact penises. And elsewhere you can find men do as well!

Source: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/epdf

http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9

Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection:

http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm

http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the heck doesn't clean their penis? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit:

http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death):

http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission

http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence

http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits

http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning: Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

32: CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

[–]possiblyhazardous-2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Malcolm12763 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

as I've stated numerous times - has zero health benefits.

And then you go on using the same logic to circumcise men, that FGM practicers use to continue FGM on women . . .

The benefits you shared aren't for all men, those issues affect some men (HIV risks) and some pre-mature babies (UTI-infections). None of which is any reason to cut parts off people before they're old enough to make that decision for themselves.

Please don't post garbage that means absolutely nothing and pawn it off as fact.

The sites I linked give their sources for the info they've garnered. Just because you don't want to take the time and look at it, does not mean it's fake by any means.

When it is actually just "alternative fact" aka you are Trump Trash.

Is this supposed to be an insult?

I'm sure that deep down in your heart, your tiny mind wanted me to be offended and outraged. You had a strong yearning that I would be shocked and aghast, just completely beside myself with utter disbelief! The gall of some people!

Unfortunately, I'm not. Make the text as large and bold as you want, your small words are just that, small words.

You've made up your mind that cutting parts off of male babies is fine, but if done to females, it's atrocious. You are a disgusting individual, there's no hope for you. Good day.

[–]Hypertroph1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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My wife was the one who insisted on my boys getting circumcised. She figured they would get made fun of if they didn't.

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Go have a look at the Wikipedia article under the section listed "severity". A foreskin which does not normally retract past the glans is most certainly a case of mild phimosis. It can cause paraphimosis as well, hence my comment.

If you read my comment again you will see that I said that the foreskin can stay over the glans if you hold it there, not that once erect it is unable to go over the head of the penis. Please don't misrepresent my argument.

Have I ever touched an in uncut cock, or seen one? Why yes. I touch mine every day. I like it quite a bit. Check my post history and you'll find I'm also active in the intactivism community. I'm not spewing misinformation. My grandfather is a urologist, and I have had plenty of friends with Phillies of varying severity.

As for foreskin play... what? You mean just putting your hand around the foreskin and pulling it up and down as in a handjob? That's not foreskin play that's just the normal function of the dick. That's why US Americans have to use lube so often to masturbate, because there is no sheath to manipulate. But "foreskin play" sounds like your stretching it out and whispering into it or some shit.

[–]Elvick 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't even know where to begin with your ridiculously ignorant comment.

First, wikipedia. Ha. Second, "normally retract" what the fuck does that mean? Because foreskin doesn't become a fucking rubber band that if you pull it over the head it magically fucking pulls back as you seem to think. Unless you have very little foreskin.

I did read your comment, and understood exactly what you mean. And you're wrong. "if you hold it there" is wrong.

And I'm Jesus dear. My word is everything. I don't care that your friend's cousin's aunt's hairdresser's client knows their shit.

You mean just putting your hand around the foreskin and pulling it up and down as in a handjob?

Wow. When you pull the foreskin over the head of the penis, and lick it and nibble on it and other things. You're so daft.

But "foreskin play" sounds like your stretching it out and whispering into it or some shit.

You can "stretch it out". If you can't, that just means you have very little foreskin. And again, I cite docking. You can't put someone else's dick in your foreskin unless it can do that. It'd be impossible. In yet... there's plenty of that going around, just google it dear.

Bye Felicia.

[–]Dick_Fart_Champion 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, Wikipedia. There are citations within the section I am referring to, most of which are from medical journals. I don't think you know how Wikipedia works.

Yes, my foreskin does pull back over the glans when my penis is erect. It doesn't snap back like a rubber band but it does pull back unless I hold it there. O don't have very little foreskin. When not erect my foreskin covers the glans. This is the normal function of foreskin. I am being 100% serious when I say this: next time you're at your GP or specialist please ask them about this, perhaps even show them this comment. You're doing what you accused me of, which is to say, speaking as if all dicks are the same ("have you ever seen an uncut dick"), I am telling you that not all uncut dicks have billious foreskin. While it may not be a significant impediment or disability, it is not "normal" (as in the majority of uncit penises).

As for the foreskin play, seriously what the fuck, nibble on it? No thank you Jesus. The glans is at least 10 times more sensitive anyway.

As for stretching it out, I never said I couldn't, that's just not the normal function of the foreskin. Skin is elastic, if the foreskin naturally rests below the glans (this is the normal way, by both number and anatomically) of course it's possible to stretch it, but it shouldn't naturally rest in that strwtcjed state. Then you have something wrong with your dick.

As for docking, I cannot think of a more bizarre and tangential example to your into your argument. I must admit I only have 2 close friends who are homosexual so I've never really asked anyone about it. I did last night, and both of them (uncut) said they wouldn't physically be able to do it. Unless you were holding the skin there with your hands they said it would simply not stay there.

But even so, this isn't a practice heterosexual men engage in, and as such it's not really an issue for those people, who represent more than 90% of the population. I would say that if you're having to justify your argument with a fringe practice that not even the entire homosexual/bi community can physically do, let alone the rest of us, you're not really #Jesus #feliciastillhere

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How I wish that were true. I was completely against circumcision while my wife was for it. I debunked every common excuse she threw at me, and in the end she stubbornly held onto the belief that it would be easier on us if our son was circumcised because we wouldn't have to put in as much effort cleaning under the foreskin while he's young. I accused her of wanting to mutilate our son for the sole purpose of her own laziness, she unabashedly agreed with my assessment. Come the day of birth I told the doctor not to circumcise my son and my wife told them to proceed. The doctor, obviously unfazed by the discrepancy in parental wishes, looked at me and said that the mother had sole discretion over the matter and that he would proceed. I eventually came to accept it, hell I've lived a good life being circumcised, why can't my son? Then about a month later some issues arose with my son. He won the genetic lottery and inherited his father's "grower not a shower" penis, so in a flaccid state it is pushed up into its own skin, partially covering the head. Skin started growing to the head and some cleanliness issues developed. On the grand scale it's no big deal, we just have to pull the skin back to ensure no improper growth occurs as well as do some extra cleaning every time we change his diaper. The problem for me is that now I have to perform the very task my wife so selfishly tried to avoid by mutilating our son. It was completely pointless. She even realizes it now, but will circumcise the next son anyway just so that we don't have to explain why he's different from his brother. There is literally nothing I can do about it.

Sorry for the text wall. This is the first time I've felt safe talking about this issue so I may have ranted a little bit. I've brought it up with male friends, guys I've known for decades, and they just laugh at me. I'm being contrary just for the sake of being different, why do I care so much about my kids dick?, he'd be weird his whole life if I got my way. Male circumcision is truly engrained into our society. Anyway, thanks for letting me vent guys.

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[–]Drusylla 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

but will circumcise the next son anyway just so that we don't have to explain why he's different from his brother

I have 3 sons. Our first son was circumcised due to my husband's wishes. Our youngest 2 boys are not. While I was pregnant with our oldest, I wanted to know exactly what we were getting into so I researched the hell out of it. I found both pro's and cons but I decided it was not necessary. Like you, I debunked all the common myths that my husband brought up. I only wanted him to go over the research (pro's and cons) of what I had found and if then, he still wanted it done, I would respect his decision. Husband refused. The pediatrician on called told my husband it was not medically necessary and my husband wanted it done anyway.

When our son was only 3 months old, insurances started coming out saying they were no longer covering circumcision because it was a cosmetic procedure only. (This was 14 years ago btw.)

A decade later, we had another boy. He is NOT circumcised. Our son never questioned why his penis looked different than his brother's. In fact, we were the ones who brought it up and our son told us "Honestly, I didn't really think about it." Our oldest was starting to go through puberty so we had lengthy conversations about the changes in his body and circumcision came up.

I told our son that we both decided to circumcise him because it was what you did. Then a mere 3 months later we found it wasn't necessary and that's why his younger brother isn't.

Our son's response: "Oh okay. That makes sense." He's never groveled about how he hates he is cut and his brothers aren't. It simply is a non-issue.

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Our son's response: "Oh okay. That makes sense." He's never groveled about how he hates he is cut and his brothers aren't. It simply is a non-issue.

This ^

This is the perfect response to all those parents who somehow "justify" the act of circumcising their later sons on the grounds one or other party would get upset about being "different". In the dim, distant past, I cannot remember ever having the piss taken out of me because my cock was the way it was when I was born - other boys took the piss out of me for many other reasons, but not that. I suspect most boys rarely, if ever, think about this sort of thing and even when they do it's rarely a significant issue. Consequently, this ridiculous idea that parents will not allow two sons to be "different" is no more than the parent(s) imposing their odd notions on their children.

[–]Drusylla 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]splodgenessabounds 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

she stubbornly held onto the belief that it would be easier on us if our son was circumcised because we wouldn't have to put in as much effort cleaning under the foreskin while he's young. ... The problem for me is that now I have to perform the very task my wife so selfishly tried to avoid by mutilating our son. It was completely pointless. She even realizes it now, but will circumcise the next son anyway just so that we don't have to explain why he's different from his brother. There is literally nothing I can do about it.

Before I kick off, I hope your young bloke is well and healthy.

Apart from the whole "whatever the mother says, goes" bollocks that denies fathers who love their children any legitimacy, the one thing that leaps out of your story and headbutts me in the face is the complete irrationality and unwillingness to listen to reason demonstrated by your SO.

For one thing, women have been giving birth to male babies since the year dot and - correct me if I'm wrong - there was no such thing as reliably hygienic surgery (not to forget anaesthesia) for all of those millenia bar the last half-century or so. Also - again, correct me if I'm wrong - it's not like the past was some sort of mass graveyard of boys and men who died because they had a foreskin. Males are born with a foreskin and, while I'm no expert in the matter, I suspect that if being born so endowed conferred any sort of significant disadvantage evolution would be well along the road to fixing it by now. The idea that leaving a baby boy "entire" entails endless labour expended in complicated hygiene regimes is no more than hyperbolic paranoia - all it takes is regular, simple cleanliness, no more (in fact probably less) than any responsible parent would do for a baby girl. I'm "entire" (i.e. I am as I was born) and I have somehow managed to survive unto the age of 56 - I know, incredible, innit - and the one and only hygiene problem I've ever had was an STD (herpes) that - wait for it - I got from a female partner. And I'm certain my story is not unique.

What most pisses me off about your SO's attitude though is her complete unwillingness to change her POV in the face of direct evidence that contradicts her. That kind of intransigence ought to be a warning signal to you, if it isn't already.

thanks for letting me vent guys.

No worries, rant all you like - this is a place where blokes ought to be able to get shit off their shoulders.

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because we wouldn't have to put in as much effort cleaning under the foreskin while he's young.

The average age for the foreskin to detach is around 11. That's provided healthcare practitioners leave it alone and don't force retract it.

You don't have to clean under a babies foreskin. It's fused to the glans of the penis, like a nail to a finger. This is like breaking the hymen to give girls a douche to clean out the vagina.

Of course, if a doctor separates them because they lack basic knowledge of anatomy they don't have, then you'll have to begin this entirely unnecessary cleaning ritual to prevent the two pieces from re-fusing.

... The real irony, is you have to do more work after circumcision. Wound care from surgery? Preventing infection? ... The foreskin is a protective covering. It requires zero work. You don't prevent infections by removing the protective covering :(

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Why? Like, I'm gonna be honest here. I don't understand the problem with circumcision? I'm circumcised, amd I wouldn't have it any other way. I feel like uncircumcised penises look weird and are way harder to clean and such. And no offense, but when you point out that pediatricians recommend circumcision but then say that they're wrong and need to change, my mind just flashes to the image of a feminist telling her doctor that she can be healthy at any size, no matter what he says. Can you explain your point of view?

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I find it amazing that you assert as fact that "primitive nomadic herdsman" thousands of years ago circumscribed their sons so they wouldn't masturbate so much. I mean that sounds EXACTLY what a bunch of guys hanging around would say to each other,

"Hey, you know that masturbation that we like to do so much?" Yeah "Let's start cutting off the foreskin from our kids so that they don't masturbate as much as we do."

WHY WOULDN'T WE?

Tl; Dr; Don't project motivations on to people who believe differently than you do to taint their stance

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In brief - there are no health benefits,

Phimosis

Other doctors have put papers saying there is.....

This is the part where MR and I diverge.

and it's performed on a patient without their consent for purely cultural reasons, and just for that reason alone, is, IMO, unethical.

This is a subjective statement. Either parents own their children in society or they don't. According to US law. Parents are legally responsible and have legal guardian ship. Circumcision is enshrined in law as a religious procedure and has been given approval via the court systems as a legal right of parents.

Your choice would essentially upend a large part of legal doctrine. That frankly shouldnt be upended unless you like to live in north korea.

This is the problem. Just like feminists we have our own in our group who advocate beyond their understanding and means and end up looking crazy.

[–]dallasdarling 28 points29 points30 points 9 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]ioudas210-25 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are limits to this, though, and I don't think those limits go far enough

Thats nice, the natural rights and legal rights of people superseded this.

I don't think it should be legal for a family to reject live-saving treatment for a dying child because they are opposed on religious grounds for example.

Thats nice, the natural rights and legal rights of people superseded this.

And phimosis is both uncommon, and can be treated in other ways. Regardless, preemptively treating something that might not even occur is stupid and not worth the cost to the child.

Ah so we've gone from no medical benefit.. to some. goal post some more. Sounds like its not as simple as you lay out. But this is just business usual here at MR.

I don't care if your medically unecessary genital surgery is part of your culture, it's still wrong.

Says you. and thats your opinion. You dont get to tell others what to do because you say so and you feel really strongly about it. The law and reality doesnt work that way. You have serious established law which the government isnt allowed to touch. For some seriously smart reasons.

The fact you think rights are subjective and are based on your opinion of morality is the same thing youre railing against.

But this is the level of self awareness we get from the fringe elements here.

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I just said that one has to try to do it

And that remains plain wrong (especially since you wrote that the parents are supposed to pull it back). I don't know if you took any child care classes or read up on that, but again: The only person that's supposed to do anything to their foreskin is the boy it's attached to.

Reason being that foreskin and glans are fused together with a membrane (the synechia), which dissolves with time. If you mechanically try to separate foreskin and glans before the synechia has dissolved on its own, you risk exactly what you think you are checking for: The tearing can cause an open wound which may become infected. The formerly separated parts of foreskin and glans can fuse together when healing, which hinders the retraction of the foreskin later. Or, small tears in the foreskin you caused by retracting it prematurely can heal into non-stretchable scar tissue, thus creating a phimotic state of the foreskin.

You don't "catch problems early on" when you try to fiddle with your boy's foreskin. But you may create them.

edit: Kitten eyes are protected by similar mechanism. You don't forcibly try to open those either. You wait until the kitten opens its eyes by itself.

[–]eripx 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Either parents own their children in society or they don't.

I'm puzzled by the inconsistency of legality when it comes to violence against children; mutilate their genitals in infancy "because it's a part of our culture"? No prob. Whip the little shit with a belt for pissing on the carpet? That's a jailin'.

There isn't any consistency with regard to legal/illegal violence that has any basis in degree of lasting damages.

Additionally, the notion that culture/religion is a reason to do anything that supersedes human rights/critical evaluation is asinine. For example, "we always kill and eat our firstborn child for luck; it's just a part of our culture/religion" is IMHO an equally indefensible position to "we always mutilate our baby boy's genitals; it's just a part of our culture/religion."

[–]Erochimaru 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Even when there is phimosis one can attempt the reduction of foreskin but not complete removal. There are also many other ways to solve it before chopping it off.

Also the other health benefits are that because the penis dries out it's more difficult for bacteria and viruses to pass through and into the skin and blood. But. That also means that when the penis is dried out there is a risk for desensitization, painful cracking where one as to moisturize it all the time and since the procedure Is a small surgery and not performed by a surgeon it can also have complications.

Imo the foreskin is a necessary cover/shell to keep the top of the penis moist and sensitive for stimulation (I mean a normal level), it doesn't get gross at all when you clean it regularly, it is wetter and softer for sex and the foreskin softens the motion/friction during sex which can for some women be way more or less appealing than a circumsized penis.

Also the virus/bacteria thingo is not very important because it's not extremely reduced (look it up) and basically not necessary or recommended unless you are in a country with high percentage of hiv infected people. But even then it is only recommendable in hella poor regions where you can't get condoms and are desperate enough for unprotected sex.

The risks outweigh the benefits by far, even when you are in a poor country.

I forgot: there are also tons of nerves and the tissue is supposed to be very elastic, a circumcision is really not a good idea since it can scar or just remove elasticity.

[–]Schadrach 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ioudas210 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Female genital mutilation is not recognized by courts in many jurisdictions within the US. There is no working precedent and multiple jurisdictions have outlawed it and cases have not been brought to counter it. Federally it is illegal and as of a few months ago I know of no case law brought against the law.

Courts within the us work in specific ways. Like I have mentioned and you will find all the way up the ladder of all jurisdictions it is supported as a religious right because it has been brought before the courts via the people who currently do it. FGM isnt as common and doesnt have any significant precedents that you will find and the enforcement of is not generally known to produce any actual cases to challenge the law. The other portion is its tied parental guardian concepts in law and legal rights of parents, and religious rights. Of which, these are supported at different levels and different states view differently via their statutory law or constitution or case law. You can write a federal law tomorrow to ban MGM and it still will be legal in a lot of areas according to the states and counter suits will have to prove these rulings are not rights and cause specific harm to society that provides a compelling interest. I know you probably don't like it, but there is ample law for you to look up. Its not as simple as making a law. Sorry.

If you look up any case law you will see how the courts use justification for it currently and what rules they make that meets the criteria for compelling interests against statutory law. Since FGM is not prevalent and no one has been arrested in a lot of jurisdictions in the USA you wont find any. If you do let me know. Id be curious as there is precedent.

People in other regions are able do take drugs and violate other laws most MR inactivists who say should not be possible ever.

I even post the case law normally when i debate here, but lately im just done trying here trying to have an actual debate regarding a lot regarding circumcision here. There is no real debate.

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it's important to distinguish those from research.

Ah yes, the "research" from the American Academy of Pediatrics for example:

According to the AAP — they are not pro-circumcision. Their wording was very careful — they don't recommend it, but they do justify access to it. And later in the report they state: “...health benefits are not great enough to recommend routine circumcision.”

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/585

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756

And yet Dr. Andrew L. Freedman, one of the senior members of the "task force" on circumcision for the AAP has now clearly stated:

"To many, especially in the lay press, this was interpreted as moving the needle from a neutral stance, as the 1999 guidelines were viewed, to being pro circumcision." [ie: the lay press were wrong].

Freedman has now come out and admitted, that the AAP "report" was nothing more than a sap to "multiculturalism" and that they took numerous non-medical issues into consideration, whilst at the same time stating that were doing the opposite: "although we claim authority in the medical realm, we have no standing to judge on these other elements." And yet — that's exactly what they did!

So the AAP has now admitted, that their "medical" report was really about just allowing religious people to continue their sexual abuse and mutilation of infant boys.

AAP Link here

Link to full text here - scroll down

The American Academy of Pediatrics is a trade organisation, and exists for the promotion of its members - paediatric doctors. It is not, and never will be, a patient advocacy group.

The AAP members make millions of dollars from circumcision infant baby boys, and millions more from selling the amputated foreskins for medical research and cosmetics:

http://www.foreskin.org/f4sale.htm

And even more money fixing "botched" circumcisions — which can be 20% of their income! See below.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair, I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked

Many other sane pediatric association from around the world has declared the AAP's stance to be against all sane, rational analysis.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896.full.pdf+html

The British Medical Journal also published an extensive critique:

http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2013/03/19/journal-of-medical-ethics-special-issue-on-circumcision/?q=w_jme_blog_sidetab

Also the Journal of Medical Ethics:

http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/18/medethics-2013-101346.abstract

The Danish Society of Family Physicians has even declared male "circumcision" to be genital mutilation. Other countries in Europe will soon follow:

“The National Board of Health has sent Guidelines Regarding Circumcision of Boys into hearing. DSAM (Danish Society of Family Physicians) has debated the issue and agreed that circumcision may only be performed when medical indication is present. Circumcision in the absence of a medical indication is mutilation.”

Plus, the circumcision policy committee of the APP had many members with a conflict of interest, not least because of their religious belief in the requirement by their God to have their sons' penises mutilated as a sign of their devotion and love.

These people are terrified that the general public is going to get wise to this child-abuse and ban it.

Dr. Andrew Freedman was one of the members of the committee, and was asked:

"Do you have a son and, if so, did you have him circumcised?"

"Yes, I do. I circumcised him myself on my parents’ kitchen table on the eighth day of his life. But I did it for religious, not medical reasons. I did it because I had 3,000 years of ancestors looking over my shoulder."

http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/new-york-minute/fleshing-out-change-circumcision

So he didn't have 100 million years of human evolution and Charles Darwin looking over his shoulder then? Every male mammal in the animal kingdom is born with a foreskin, so it evolved for reasons.

Not only that, Dr. Andrew Freedman makes 20% of his income from treating circumcisions that have gone wrong! (But note that every circumcision is a botch job). So he makes $500 a pop for circumcising boys, and then more $$$$ for fixing the problems!

"As a practicing pediatric urologist, 20% of the patients I will see today are here because of something related to their circumcision."

http://www.amednews.com/article/20120903/health/309039955/4/

Here is the AAP policy statement. Can you please point me to the section where there task force members state their "conflicts of interest"? (Hint: you won't find it because it doesn't exist):

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/08/22/peds.2012-1989.full.pdf+html

Note that as three of the task force members were women; and the rest men all born before 1980, there is a very high degree of certainty that none of them possess a male foreskin.

In addition, at least four of them subscribe to a set of theological beliefs that require them to mutilate the genitals of their infant sons. And one of whom (as detailed previously) did so on his kitchen table. Not only is this in violation of the AAP’s code of bioethics prohibiting physicians from conducting surgery on family members (let alone in non-sterile environments), it also provides additional evidence of a pro-circumcision bias among the hand-picked task force members.

These people will mutilate your penis just because they think it pleases their sky-god. Forget about "medical benefits".

And recently, Steven Svoboda, a Harvard educated lawyer who runs "Attorneys for the rights of the child", debated two of the AAPs "Taskforce on Circumcision" members: Michael Brady, M.D. and Douglas Diekema, M.D.:

"Asked if people present could explain the functions of the foreskin Brady said, “I don't think anybody knows the functions of the foreskin,” then reiterated, in nearly identical words, “Nobody knows the functions of the foreskin.” I noted that there was not a word about the functions of the foreskin in the 2012 AAP report, and asked, shouldn't we know something about the functions of the healthy body part that is being removed?"

Tellingly, the AAP pamphlet "Care of the Uncircumcised Penis", used to contain this information:

"The glans at birth is delicate and easily irritated by urine and feces. The foreskin shields the glans; with circumcision, this protection is lost. In such cases, the glans and especially the urinary opening may become irritated or infected, causing ulcers, meatitis, and meatal stenosis. Such problems virtually never occur in uncircumcised penises. The foreskin protects the glans throughout life".

But this was deleted in the 1996 reprint, and despite numerous letters to the editors, no explanation was ever given as to why it was removed. Of course the reason is obvious: they want to deny that the male foreskin has any function at all, so they can continue to mutilate infant boys.

http://www.circumcision.org/pamphlet.htm

The foreskin is not "just a little bit of skin." The foreskin is a complex, double-layered fold of flesh, laden in thousands of nerves and blood vessels. Keep in mind that as a child grows into a man, his foreskin grows too; it isn't so little by the time the child is an adult. And adult foreskin can be from 12 to 15 square inches in size.

The foreskin is not a birth defect.

Neither is it a congenital deformity or genetic anomaly akin to a 6th finger or a cleft.

Neither is it a medical condition like a ruptured appendix or diseased gall bladder.

Neither is it a dead part of the body, like the umbilical cord, hair, or fingernails.

The foreskin is not "extra skin." The foreskin is normal, natural, healthy, functioning tissue, with which all boys are born; it is as intrinsic to male genitalia as labia are to female genitalia.

Unless there is a medical or clinical indication, the circumcision of a healthy, non-consenting individual is a deliberate wound; it is the destruction of normal, healthy tissue, the permanent disfigurement of normal, healthy organs, and by very definition, infant genital mutilation, and a violation of the most basic of human rights.

Genital mutilation, whether it be wrapped in culture, religion or “research” is still genital mutilation, and it needs to stop NOW.

[–]JusticeBeaver13 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NOT_A_SENTIENT_DILDO 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha that's hilarious. And not true. Wanna see what a circumcision infection looks like? Google it. I have and never will again.

Don't fucking tell us to not spread false information you ignorant schmuck. Right after saying "circumcision reduces infection rates." Where did you get this magic statistic? Your imagination? Cause i promise it isn't based in reality.

Ummm again there ARE NO BENEFITS TO MALE GENITAL MUTILATION. And I don't even know why I have to say this... doesit really need to be said? Okay I'll explain to you. IT ISN'T A FUCKING COMPETITION.

We aren't saying it's worse than female genital mutilation. We're freaking asking you to look at it the same way you would if it was a little girl. We're asking you to take it seriously for one goddamn minute. We're asking you to actually have a shred of empathy. And not disregard what we're saying "because FGM doesn't have benefits" Like... so? These are two seperate and unrelated topics. Why can't you seperate them in your mind? While I agree FGM is horrible. I don't understand why you won't accept people speaking about male circumcision as a barbaric practice without prefacing every sentence about it with 1000 words about why FGM is worse.

It isn't a debate about which is worse. It doesn't matter that FGM also exists and is also horrible. WE AREN'T ARGUING FOR ITS CONTINUED EXISTENCE. You are the one arguing for the continued existence of a barbaric practice. Spreading false ass information about it and sitting here acting like we're the ones comparing it to FGM. YOU ARE. YOU are the one who is unable to separate it in your head. They are two separate fucking issues that affect two different groups of people. Why do you not get that?

Yeah FGM is an awful horrible terrible thing that nobody should ever have to be forced to go through. The difference is that there's no people like you in the united states talking about "the benefits" of female circumcision and how it isn't as bad cause male genital mutilation exists. So why the fuck can't we talk about an atrocity without prefacing it with an 1000 word essay about how much worse girls have it cause FGM exists as well. I just don't get it.

Basically take your ignorant ass to google because not ONLY do infection rates soar with circumcision (not the other way round) sensitivity within the penis is reduced by about 40-60%. The only reason you believe there are benefits is because that's what you've been told all your life. And if you think you have any right telling your husband, your son, anyone what to do with their dick I've got four words for you; check your fuckin privilege. Cause if you expect anyone to give up their bodily autonomy cause you want a prettier dick you're in for a big fuckin surprise.

[–]Schadrach 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Circumcision helps with

Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. Washing beneath the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis is generally easy, however.

Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The overall risk of urinary tract infections in males is low, but these infections are more common in uncircumcised males. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.

Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men might have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Still, safe sexual practices remain essential.

Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of the foreskin or head of the penis.

Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men. In addition, cervical cancer is less common in the female sexual partners of circumcised men.

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/Newborn-Male-Circumcision.aspx

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Ah yes, the American Academy of Pediatrics...