CMV: Truth? You’re not average.

trueorfalsedmitry · 2019-10-06T23:35:34+00:00

But if you think everything in life should come that easy to you because you have a Y chromosome, well...you’re not average.

So, which is it? Are women "just people," and, therefore, not trophies to be won and striven for? Or, is pussy so unbelievably valuable and magical that significant effort to achieve it is a virtue?

Both cannot be true.

GrumpyOldHistoricist · 2019-10-06T20:53:35+00:00

Any time you’re dealing with reality as it’s presented in popular media versus reality as it’s actually lived versus reality as it’s perceived (IE the second as filtered through internalizations of the first) things are going to get really complicated.

To begin with, the norm of dating/hookup culture as it’s presented in the first category is basically dudes slaying pussy left and right until the girl that’s perfect for them comes along and they settle down. And for the dudes who aren’t plowing everything that comes their way, a good quality woman eventually comes along and sees just how above average he really is and throws herself at him.

This, of course, isn’t how it’s actually lived. Most dudes are not out there crushing gash all day every day. Men may have more partners on average, but that’s because a few men have absurdly high numbers. Hookup culture favors an elite minority of men and they throw off the numbers. Similarly, dating apps favor the same minority. And with apps now being the default of how people meet, this leaves a lot of men out in the cold. Including average men. Apps force the majority of women to compete for a minority of men. Smart women will eventually realize this and start hunting in the wild and eventually find one of the dudes who’s less likely to be selected on an app, but shit feels bad for the guys until then and when it finally does happen it feels more like being settled for than the romantic scenario from the previous paragraph.

The third category is where things get really sticky. Unfortunately for all of us, the human psyche isn’t independent, autonomous, or created ex nihilo. It’s an internal coagulation of external elements. This becomes especially acute in a media saturated environment. Most people spend more time watching porn or movies and TV shows about romance than they do fucking and dating. This means their ideas of normalcy are largely defined by fiction. Not living up to these unrealistic expectations feels like deviance and failure. Even if it’s actually normal. People are generally wont to admit weakness so they don’t talk to one another and find out how common their unpleasant experiences really are (see also Americans’ ideas of what economically average is versus the fact that 78% of them live paycheck to paycheck).

You’re in your 40s and off the market. The dating realm has radically changed in the past decade or so. It’s always been the social milieu where Darwinian selection processes have been the least mediated, but it’s gotten even less filtered than it was when you and I were young. Listen to people when they tell you their experiences. Discussions like the ones on PPD are the beginnings of people taking back the discourse and demanding that generally held ideas of normalcy and averageness actually align with lived experience. Sure it’s sometimes ugly, clumsy, and not entirely coherent, but give it some time and some room and it should get more nuanced and refined.

ScootsScoots · 2019-10-07T15:29:23+00:00

I think theres way too many guys out there who dont have the basics covered that have no right to whine about their lack of pussy.

If you dont: 1. Support yourself 2. Have a full time job 3. Have your own place 4. Have your own vehicle except in a major city 5. Have friends 6. BATHE 7. Dress like an adult 8. Keep your fat fucking beer gut in check 9.Talk to other adults like an adult

Then you have no right to complain. You're a child and dont deserve to get laid.

Be employed, be social, dont be fat, act like a man. So simple. Turn off your anime til you figure it out.

binkerfluid · 2019-10-06T21:47:47+00:00

I do not believe you are sorry at all

reluctantly_red · 2019-10-06T20:41:40+00:00

are 80% of your co-workers single virgins?

About 40% of the guys are.

randomizer3000 · 2019-10-06T21:14:50+00:00

Very few of the posts I've seen have been "can't". It's more "the effort imbalance for the same outcome is ridiculous"

ColCrin · 2019-10-06T20:12:03+00:00

It may not be 80% of men being sexless, but the numbers are rising and I'd like to see you prove otherwise.

largepaycheckaddict · 2019-10-06T20:37:52+00:00

Lots of average and even above average looking guys are overlooked. A lot of this can boil down to anything from logistics (works all the time, lives with family, lives in a place where there’s not many women his age around etc).

Other things such as depression/mental illness, lack of social skills, lifestyle/expectation differences can keep lots of guys barred from the game too.

I’ve been called “hot” by many women. I have a college degree,full time job, car etc.. but have only had 1 LTR gf (who started as just a friend, but never really loved me beyond getting jealous if I went on a date with other girls).

It’s hard out there for guys today. Especially guys with morals and expectations.

Hennythepainaway · 2019-10-06T21:28:42+00:00

I think greater than 20% of men do fine but it's definitely less than 80%.

Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other?

First of all, 80% of men don't even go to these types of venues. If they do go it's already self selecting out the wall flowers. So ofcourse 80% wouldn't be on the walls.

Go to the mall— do you see hordes of 80% men with wedding bands and strollers looking like they’re ready to drive off a cliff

Is this even a good example with divorce rates what they are? 50% end up in divorce. How many percentage points would that tick up if you included those in unhappy marriages but are staying together for whatever reason?

Go to work — are 80% of your co-workers single virgins?

Unless they're all comp sci grads, you're right on this point. But who the hell on this sub even makes this point? I've never seen someone say that 80% of men are virgins. You're debating against incel talking points, but this isn't an incel sub so wyd?

average men can’t get laid/are incels

No one says that

average men are ignored by women

They certainly aren't pursued. And the problem with these points is that average spans 60% of men with how you put it. You make no distinction for people at the 25th percentile with those at 75th percentile. Those tiers of men are night and day.

average men are essentially locked out of hook up culture

Again we run into the problem with talking about 60% of the available men. The top ~40 something percent should be able to get something going. Another 10-20% should be able to get a hookup rarely if they work at it. The rest, they probably have to get lucky or go for bottom of the barrel girls.

average men can’t get quality sex

Does anybody actually say this? If you're halfway decent at sex, you can get quality sex.

the best an average man can hope for is being beta buxed by an alpha widow who will never want him

I guess this one is a Red Pill talking point. I disagree with it myself

This is such a strawman of a post. It really says something when you try to kick the lowest people. The air of superiority is pretty gross. What makes you so good?

06242019 · 2019-10-06T20:12:41+00:00

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AnalThrashing · 2019-10-06T20:53:13+00:00

While I agree its unfair for men to put the blame on women for these numbers, you are literally doing the opposite and saying its all on men.

ImportantWords · 2019-10-06T22:12:15+00:00

Your argument is predicated on this belief that getting laid relies on high SMV. That is false. I know plenty of married losers. I work with a guy that has terrible dental hygiene, orange teeth, and dips, about to have a damned baby at 19. Gross guys, get gross girls all the time.

But even average Girls don’t want casual sex with average looking Men.

So here you are, 22-year old virgin, average, to even slightly above average looks. You have mostly male coded interests, so most of your friends are guys, and the few girls you do know are probably already taken. You get invited to a few parties, bars every year, and you go, but no one seems interested in you. You try to make conversation with the girls, but your interests are orthogonal. You don’t know how to flirt because no one has ever flirted with you. You don’t know how to make a move, and worse, your position at this place is already tenuous at best, so your not going to learn now. You’re acutely aware of the fact that no female really cared to have you there and none of the males really wanted you there either. You are at best a distraction, but more probably an annoyance. And it’s not that your weird. Gross. Creepy. You’re just normal, not interesting, not attractive, and not really on anyone’s agenda for the evening. So you go back to your cave, go back to your male friends, and proclaim: Girls aren’t interested in average guys.

They aren’t wrong, but they are misguided. They’re looking in the wrong places and expecting the wrong things. Those gross people we talked about up front? Yeah their gross, but they know how to play the right game.

ToraChan23 · 2019-10-07T00:26:57+00:00

I would love to see the research showing that men have more sex partners than women.

Goingprorogue · 2019-10-06T20:16:20+00:00

an average guy does have to put in some work

if that is too much to ask

you’re not average.

The average American man is literally eating himself into an early grave at 5'9", 197 pounds lol. I think allergy to effort is more "average" than you think.

To be frank you sound like one of those people who works really hard and thinks that that must be a normal thing.

Freevoulous · 2019-10-07T07:38:46+00:00

Preach OP. 10/10, would read again.

I want to add another thing, something that is so extremely important yet overlooked:

The things that attract women are things you are SUPPOSED to be anyway, just to live a normal life!

Imagine for a second that women did not exist, the world was just men breeding asexually. You would still need to:

- earn a decent money to have a civilised life

- be fit and in shape so that your body would not break apart at 40

- take care of your hygiene and grooming so that you would be taken seriously by other people

- train your social skills so that you would have any friends and not suffer from loneliness.

There you go. You are a human being, you are SUPPOSED to be relatively fit, not fat, financially elf-sufficient, socialised enough to be able to talk to others, and not dress like a homeless child, but a grown ass member of society. This is the default, the average guy. The baseline for male homo sapiens.

Now, are you surprised that women are attracted to that, and insist that their guy was at least on that level? The audacity, how dare they!

rus9384 · 2019-10-06T20:47:18+00:00

average men are essentially locked out of hook up culture

And what do you think about 80/20? I mean, sure, average men have sex, but casual sex? That's a whole different statement.

men have more sex partners than women

There are more straight men than straight women. Hence, on average men can only have less partners than women. Those surveys only show misreporting.

Also, compare median men and women, not average men and women.

TheJim66 · 2019-10-06T21:02:08+00:00

Of course not ,I'm top 0.0001% /s

Anyway what you say is statistically wrong.The average (young) guy is having trouble getting laid.30% couldn't get laid within a year and the other 20% gets a shitty relationship once every blue moon that he clings to with tooth,nail and cuckoldry.After which he has long dry spells.

Do you see that only 20% of men you see are coupled up?

No but it's definetely under half of them.

Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other?

More like 90% .How long has it been since you've been to a club?

As for the rest ,yes men become much more desirable as they approach 30+ yo since they have money and status and women smack against the wall.But the average young man is in a bad situation.

SILENTSAM69 · 2019-10-06T22:51:28+00:00

I do not count myself as one of those men being happily married, standing 6'4", with what people call a chiseled jaw, but I will tell you that you are wrong.

Studies have shown that women do consider only the top 20% of men as being what they consider average. Women can not tell what is average, only what their minimum standards are, and the fact is that a majority of men do not meet most women's criteria.

This is kind of a well known and studied fact. This is why so many women who wait to settle down are so disappointed in what is left as available men in their age group.

boredthrowaway8889 · 2019-10-07T00:38:32+00:00

I think you’re really misunderstanding the 80/20 rule and what we are referring to.

The 80/20 rule has nothing to do with LTRs and marriages, any average looking dude can easily get those because they are based on way more than looks. Nobody is even denying that, I know that reds like to say that any guy who isn’t an alpha is a BB, but that’s just not the truth. There are plenty of average men in very fulfilling relationships with partners that genuinely love them and aren’t just waiting for Chad to come by.

The 80/20 refers to sex and casual sex. Average men nowadays are pretty much locked out of the casual sex game. Will an average looking guy most likely never ever get casual sex? No, but it won’t be with a woman who is also average. It’ll be the 300lb fatty who works at Hardee’s. It’ll be the chubbers no dude wants. Essentially it’ll be with the absolute bottom of the barrel women if he wants it regularly, and maybe after going out every night he’ll get some girl who he is somewhat attracted to for casual sex. But this will be one time, and he’ll spend the next decade reminiscing and bragging about it forever. I think it’s fair to say the average looking man isn’t getting laid as much as you’re talking about.

2019-10-06T20:40:52+00:00

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EspyPsyche · 2019-10-07T01:30:30+00:00

The issue is first contact. First contact is hard to succeed at. Looks and perceived social status are all that matter at first contact. OLD actually helps more than hurts with this, because it can help you make first contact with non-looks strengths, but the format of many OLD sites still makes looks mostly everything (more serious sites like Match and OKCupid put more of a highlight on personality traits, less serious sites like Tinder make it almost all looks-based). You can get better precision on who to reach out to, and you can do it in a way that can't present a threat to her and in a way that getting #MeToo'd isn't a possibility.

A man could be literally perfect minus being good at first contact. He could have a great job, but be humble enough to not walk into the club fanning himself with Benjamins while dressed in an Armani suit with a Rolex on his arm (and if he did walk into the club fanning his Benjamins and wearing his Armani suit and Rolex he'd have better luck bringing a girl home). He could be kind, he could have great life experiences that make amazing stories, and he could be great in bed. He could have an actual psychic power that lets him know exactly what a woman he's in bed with wants at every exact moment and have the skill to pull it off. He could have a photographic memory, remember every birthday, every anniversary, every restriction and trigger of every family member on both sides. But if he's bad at making first contact, he'll be forever alone.

If she won't give you the time of day, all the lovemaking skills and great stories and perfect memory and life behavior won't matter. It doesn't matter that you've rescued a hundred puppies from kill shelters and provided them with loving homes if you don't get the chance to tell her that. It doesn't matter that you're a firefighter with valor awards for saving the children when the orphanage burned down if she won't even look your way. It doesn't matter that you have psychic lovemaking powers and can sense every perfect touch to make if you can't get her in bed with you.

But if you're a woman? You never need to make first contact. Men will come to you. Even if you're average or less than average, unless you're absolutely hideous (or you somehow mark yourself as a toxic person, such as wearing a swastika or shaving half your head and dyeing the other half pink), you'll get attention from men trying to be with you.

We can give overall ratings all day long that encompass personality and all sorts of other traits in addition to looks and social status, but you'll never make first contact using an interesting anecdote or loyalty or puppy rescuing or anything other than looks or social status. And if you can't make first contact successfully, nothing else matters.

And it's going to be like that until we outlaw dating people you met organically (as in, through work, school, church etc. instead of matching online). We'd also have to ban Tinder-style sites and subsidize OKC-style sites that promote connection based on non-looks factors.

WavesAcross · 2019-10-07T02:25:16+00:00

average men are essentially locked out of hook up culture

What does it mean to be locked out? The average 20-40 man has like something like 6 partners. If "average" men had consistent access to casual sex I would expect that to be much higher.

So either men don't really care for casual hook ups, OR men, on average, don't do very well in hook up culture.

Do you disagree?

DubsPackage · 2019-10-07T07:00:42+00:00

Average guys /are/ basically incels nowadays in western countries.

Either they're in a string of crappy relationshits with crappy women or they have to put in hurculean efforts to be "interesting" and be like a clown entertaining her and doing everything to make her find him attractive.

Women have no perspective on this because they think some guy who look like Ashton Kutcher and drives a lambo is "just a regular guy" when he's actually top %1 elite, and the average woman nowadays is an alpha widow, she slept with a couple of Chads a few times and thinks that's how all men should be, that's her standard of manhood and who she's hoping to marry.

But statistically she will end up 30 and bitter and think about "settling" for an otherwise "average" guy who "only" make 6 figures, when she herself brings jack shit to the table except a well-used vagina and social expectations of being carried thru life where western society is heavily gynocentric with employers tripping all over each other to hire anyone with a gash for upper management.

TheReformist94 · 2019-10-06T20:56:51+00:00

No, the problem is you define 80% of men as below average, and you are entitled. Females always think they're entitled to satisfy their hypergamy, when the answer is, no, lock down a beta, and maybe, if your smv permits lock down an alpha.

Yet another post trying to deny the pareto

Pontifex_Lucious-II · 2019-10-06T20:11:31+00:00

Nice yelling session coach!

Yes many who complain online are not average. This analysis relies on the 1:1 assumption- women choose from the best of available options as oppose to let their hypergamy run loose. Or men don’t cheat with hookers because their wife is obese.

You are right. But you haven’t discovered a new element. TRP covers uggos to dead bed rooms. Each situation is unique.

Hydrakeen · 2019-10-06T20:21:04+00:00

You need proof?

Shall I dm some nudes and my bank statements?

All kidding aside, I hear you saying the world hates below average men.

Truth is, the world hates you exponentially more the farther from perfect you are on all fronts you expose.

Not always true but at first. The more time you spend with people the less these bias are based upon your appearance and the more it is based also upon your other features like personality.

I know I'm above average but I'm not the dudes you are challenging. I'm just bored waiting for the wife to come out with a new dress on for me to judge.

MrHerbSherman · 2019-10-06T21:15:05+00:00

Yeah sure most guys can get a bad relationship or an ONS once in a blue moon

How anyone thinks that’s a satisfying sex life is beyond me

leftleafthirdbranch · 2019-10-07T01:44:43+00:00

we not AVERAGE. we are ABOVE AVERAGE.

repeat it with me boys: virginity is cool! virginity is cool!

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SILENTSAM69 · 2019-10-07T00:50:56+00:00

I'm not going to search too in depth for you, but this article is about data from a dating app or site called Hinge:

https://hingeirl.com/hinge-reports/whats-the-biggest-challenge-men-face-on-dating-apps-a-qa-with-aviv-goldgeier-junior-growth-engineer/

Here is another based on data from Tinder:

https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a

Oh, here is that one about the role income inequality has to play in female sexual competition:

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/35/8722

Really this is something that seems like a study of the obvious. Women are choosy, men are less so. It's like a study on if water is wet.

Sad_Virgin_Beta_Male · 2019-10-07T09:06:28+00:00

I know I'm ugly and socially retarded, and that those are the reason I don't deserve love, intimacy or sex. Thanks for the reminder.

Anyway, it's true that there are more and more incels every day, almost a 20% of young males and growing. So... The problem is not just ugly males being ugly and getting what they deserve.

PostModernCommie · 2019-10-06T20:29:21+00:00

most people who make those claims have a distorted world view from spending too much time on r/trp and other incel subs.

personally, i think the minority of men who do not get laid or have a relationship spend too much time indoors on the internet or playing video games.

do i have the data to back it up? nah.

however, we do know the zoomers and millennials spend a massive amount of time alone and online.

isolation and depression are common in the developed capitalist societies.

the-lone-squid · 2019-10-06T21:11:34+00:00

I disagree. I talk to young men all the time in the real world (scary place). Something has definitely changed since I was younger.

Are they really trying? Idk. But many grew up with single mother's so they probably don't know what to do

Grek27 · 2019-10-06T20:13:49+00:00

It's true, I'm not average. I consider myself above average in every way that is valuable. That society has regressed into supporting backwards female behavior isn't a demonstration of my flaws but a demonstration of women being fundamentally flawed as a whole.

fackdack · 2019-10-06T21:15:49+00:00

I absolutely agree with OP.

In the spirit of full honesty, a woman that spends tons of time on this sub is below average. At least half the women on this sub are nerdy argumentative types. Let's be real, young attractive women who have feminine personalities are not on reddit debate subs.

chaddad9000 · 2019-10-06T20:57:34+00:00

Yeah, I was thinking about this. When I was in my 20s, most of the guys in my social circle were decent dudes, socially outgoing, fit, outdoors activities, real jobs, etc. The worst you could say about any of them is they smoked too much weed. Anyway, they're generally 'above average'. But if they broke off with whatever girl they were seeing, they were generally dry for a while and it could be a year or two before they found another girlfriend.

If you asked them "did you have sex in the last year?", the answer might have been "once" or "twice" rather than "no". I suppose the random bar hookup has been replaced by OLD, but it was never some free love nirvana where everyone was having casual sex.

Most of these guys ended-up with women I'd consider attractive, so I think they really were being selective/picky and weren't urgent about settling.

poppy_blu · 2019-10-06T20:23:17+00:00

"I’ll concede that an average guy does have to put in some work to take a woman home, to secure an attractive girlfriend,..."

So if "average" requires some work, then slightly below average requires more work to get the same attractive woman as the regular average.

Average is just average, not set apart but blending into the backdrop. If average guy does not want the average woman then he has to transform himself to be placed into a higher league than average. Otherwise, he gets the chubby to fat average girl.

No need to change your view because you just negated your while post point by saying average has to put in work to get attractive.

If most men are average, but most men want attractive then dating is really hard for the average guy who aims a league above going for attractive.

gunbusterxl · 2019-10-07T01:27:07+00:00

I frequent this sub a lot, and I'm pretty sure I've never made any of those statements. There are a few men that do make them over and over again, but I don't think that most male users do. You're arguing against a narrative that doesn't exist.

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Red__Blue · 2019-10-07T07:00:36+00:00

Let’s ignore this misuse of the word ‘average’ a very clearly defined statistical measure, for “up to my standards”

Fundamentally this assertion lacks truth, in fact the only value in it is how scathingly intentional it’s been written to make others feel insecure. You don’t believe this, you invented this coagulation of bile out of spite.

Some mean, mean man said something that made you feel VERY bitter, and so you wanted to get back at some amorphous father figure in some other way than getting plowed into the dirt and having another abortion.

Edit: stop using percentages. You don’t know what they mean.

Littleknownfacts · 2019-10-07T08:38:10+00:00

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escapethesolarsystem · 2019-10-07T09:47:16+00:00

Do you see that only 20% of men you see are coupled up?

Yep, when I was in the United States; only 20% were coupled up with normal weight, normal health, 6/10 or greater women. Most men who were coupled were with 2/10 fatties. Also, for someone who's so sure that other people are "not average" you have a pretty poor grasp of statistics, considering "people outside" is not a representative sample of "all people", since relationship status has something to do with how often people go in public.

Every American man I know who is in a relationship is with a girl that is a significantly lower SMV than him - older, less attractive, less fit, so on, with ONE exception (out of dozens), a 9/10 guy I know who's got a 10/10 wife - and he's probably the most naturally alpha person I've met in my life.

Go to work — are 80% of your co-workers single virgins?

In the US, not virgins, but around 80% were single, and at least 50% desperately so.

Go to the mall— do you see hordes of 80% men with wedding bands and strollers looking like they’re ready to drive off a cliff?

Yes. I worked at a mall for 4 years, I know.

When you stop cherry picking your friends and family who confirm your bias, can you honestly say that 80% of all the men you are royally fucked?

Of all the Americans I know who are married, in 80% of their marriages I can see the red flags that mean they are headed for disaster. 80% (actually, it's more like 95%, I only know of one relationship from that group that is still together) of my high-school male friends who've gotten married more than 10 years ago are now divorced, and per the stories of most of their families, the woman caused the divorce due to being a whore. (The ones I actually know well enough to ask - there's no logical reason to suspect the people I simply don't know well enough to ask are somehow totally different - the mediocrity principle says you should assume your experiences are average unless there is strong evidence otherwise - which your post seems to not understand.) Many of these were supposedly "christian" women too, I know a lot of people who are / were active Christians from my high school time and most of them are divorced now.

It is not impossible for 80% of men.

Impossible? No. A minefield of potential life-ruining problems? Definitely. The sign of a failed society and collapsing civilization is the loss of the middle class - what this means is - the inability of the "average" man to support and have a traditional family given the default circumstances of the society. The United States / English speaking world is a failed society and collapsing civilization (with other parts of western Europe to some degree on the same path) so it's no surprise that the average man can't find a good life.

--

Finally, this is important, so read carefully. I live in a different country (Georgia / საქართველო ) now, a country where feminism is not a thing, and where the society's male-female dynamic has not degenerated into what the west is. I can tell that the west is different because I can compare where I live with where I used to live (the United States). The only way to really know you're in the dark is to experience light.

Most couples are between equal SMV or a more attractive women. 6/10 man with 6/10 woman, or 7/10 woman with 5/10 man, etc. In the US in a couple situation the man nearly always appears to have the higher SMV, with better health and physical features, while the woman is fat, or otherwise disgusting.
Most husbands / boyfriends lead their wives / girlfriends around public places. He goes, she follows. When he's done, they go home, she doesn't get to (for example) shop for 5 hours longer while he sits miserable. You can see in a majority of public male-female interactions, the man is in control, where as in the United States, the men look like abused dogs.
Women usually to the mall / shopping without their husbands / boyfriends, because (surprise surprise) many men don't like to shop and won't go, and unlike in the US women can't force them to come. You only see the man if it's a "family outing", where the kids are coming to go to the theater, play the arcade, etc - or younger mixed groups (a group of friends, male and female).
Nearly all my male co-workers in Georgia are either married or in a relationship. Usually the guy breaks up with the girl (not the other way around) and within a few months he'll have another girl and another relationship. More of the women I know are desperately single than men (but generally for both sexes the number of single people is lower).
Women of higher SMV than me (sometimes significantly higher) will flirt with me (uninitiated by me) / find me attractive, where as in the United States I actually have to work "game" to if I wanted attention from an overweight, drunk 3/10, even though she's way below me in SMV and should frankly just be happy a man is talking to her.

So in conclusion, yes, the men living in the US who are having a terrible experience with relationships and women are average, you are totally and utterly wrong - not to mention really bad at statistics if you are assuming everyone you speak to "isn't average" by default.

Mrapocalisse · 2019-10-07T17:02:04+00:00

Agree 100%.

banananutbranmuffin · 2019-10-07T23:56:05+00:00

I completely agree with you, I'm pretty self-aware now that I'm older and I know many guys who will claim that they're "decent" looking, "why can't I get a girlfriend"?

They assume that just because they're not butt horribly ugly that they must be halfway decent looking, they don't realize that to most women it's a binary. You're either attractive or unattractive. Men project the way they view women onto the way they think women view men.

To men, a 4 or 5 out of 10 woman who makes $36k a year is fine but, to women the male equivalent of that is considered incredibly undesirable.

People project onto to others, it's very common.

Fly_Guy_97 · 2019-10-06T21:39:34+00:00

Your viewpoint of the 80/20 is so black and white, and I don’t blame you because you’re a woman. It’s not a hard line that determines what portion you are a part of. The 80/20 rule emphasizes general desirability from women, not whether your life is worthless or you are a pathetic virgin like you said.

Male sex drive is higher than woman’s. So when everyone tried to get their fix, the women “desire” the top of the grid. Is that too difficult for you to understand? Because for some reason you are adamant that you have hordes of knowledge and studies, but then make assumptions to people who refute you.

People can still socialize and be in the 80%, people can be married and in the 80%, hell people can have sex and be in the 80%.

Your examples are laughable and your stance is pretty horrible. As much as you don’t want to accept it, you won’t because you cannot fathom being undesirable as a man, while being a woman

I-wanna-GO-FAST · 2019-10-07T01:33:48+00:00

How would you know what average is? What does your social circle look like, and what leads you believe that the men that you personally know are "average"? You are married with kids, so you probably hang out with a bunch of other people who are married with kids...so it seems like you would conclude that this is average, since it's all that you're familiar with.

I actually don't think the majority of men would have too many problems finding a partner though...as long as they were willing to make some huge compromises.

For starters, I think an "average" man in the US that isn't overweight would have a huge problem trying to find a girl that's his looks match, if he isn't especially wealthy/handsome/charismatic. Most people are overweight, so the competition for women who are a healthy weight is fierce, and a man who wants one usually has to have something special about him.

Then of course there is the issue of marriage. The average guy would have to sign away the rights to half his shit if wants to be with someone that is even close to being his equal. And even then, they're not likely to have a happy and lasting marriage.

Or a guy can get with a single mother that is desperate for a replacement father, lol.

The dating market may not be completely hopeless for the average man, but it sure looks bleak.

abaxeron · 2019-10-06T20:57:59+00:00

If I had a dollar for every time one of our beloved PPD males made the following statements, I could retire now:

average men can’t get laid/are incels

average men are ignored by women

average men are essentially locked out of hook up culture

average men can’t get quality sex

the best an average man can hope for is being beta buxed by an alpha widow who will never want him

At best, you've focused on three of these supporting them with words (and 0 with sources/proofs), which makes a nice ad hominem in a strawman costume.

So I’d just say this: walk outside your door. Do you see that only 20% of men you see are coupled up? Go to work — are 80% of your co-workers single virgins? Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other? Go to the mall— do you see hordes of 80% men with wedding bands and strollers looking like they’re ready to drive off a cliff? When you stop cherry picking your friends and family who confirm your bias, can you honestly say that 80% of all the men you are royally fucked?

I mentioned recently to my colleague that modern sex dolls have realistic boob/ass jiggle and skin texture, and are shipped sealed with hymen-like membrane in every orifice. He got visibly nervous and intrigued, and later admitted that he couldn't sleep that night. The guy is in second marriage, has three kids, expecting the 4th, and jokes about getting menthol cigarettes (that are believed to lower male libido).

TheDorkKnight555 · 2019-10-06T21:26:55+00:00

I don't understand your need to be so rude

NalkaNalka · 2019-10-06T21:03:25+00:00

Did you say "ppd males" when you meant "incels", some of which also happen to post on ppd but don't represent anything close to a majority?

Kos_-_Omak · 2019-10-06T22:27:31+00:00

No of course not. Personally I'm way above average. But you're deadass wrong about everything else. There ARE a LOT of guys struggling with women, and many of them are average or better.

You're making a lot of completely incorrect assumptions and like most women you suck at understanding math and statistics. TBH, it's obvious that you really just made this post because you want to shit on men here because you're a bitter, low SMV woman. But I'll pretend it's in good faith and play along.

A man's overall ranking compared to all other men isn't what matters. It's basically irrelevant because women care about multiple independent factors. To keep it simple, let's just say that women care about a man's looks, career prospects, and personality. Women want a guy who is at least average in all of these areas.

Or to be more accurate, it's almost always a complete dealbreaker if a guy is below average in any of these areas. This fact is important because it means that a guy who is below average in one area usually can't make up for it by being above average in a different area unless he is exceptionally above average. An ugly dude can't make up for his below average looks with a slightly above average income or personality, he needs to be rich af or charismatic af. A dude with a below average job needs to be EXTREMELY good looking for women to ignore it.

No chick wants to date a guy who is uglier than most of the guys around her. No chick wants to date a guy who is poorer than most of the guys she knows. No chick wants to date some guy who has a below average personality.

Here is the math part:

If a guy who doesn't have any of those dealbreakers isn't merely in the top 50% of men overall. Those 3 factors are (mostly) independent and random. 50% of men have below average looks. 50% of men have below average money. 50% of men have below average personalities. BUT IT'S NOT THE SAME MEN.

It's not 50% of men who are above average in ALL of these things, it's

50% X 50% X 50% = 12.5%

That's not my opinion, that's not RP theory, that is completely objective math/statistics.

In reality, it's actually a little more than 12.5% because those factors aren't completely independent and because there are a small number of men whose flaws get ignored because they are exceptional in one way or another. But the 80/20 rule does fit this very well.

So I’d just say this: walk outside your door. Do you see that only 20% of men you see are coupled up? Go to work — are 80% of your co-workers single virgins? Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other? Go to the mall— do you see hordes of 80% men with wedding bands and strollers looking like they’re ready to drive off a cliff? When you stop cherry picking your friends and family who confirm your bias, can you honestly say that 80% of all the men you are royally fucked?

This is mostly just hyperbolic screeching. No one claims that the 80/20 rule means that 80% of men are virgins. That's an obvious low effort strawman.

But to your larger point yes, I do go outside and see LOTS of totally normal, relatively average men struggling with women. They don't have girlfriends, they aren't having ONS or hookups often or ever.

The 80/20 rule and all that isn't some bullshit that we made up out of thin air. Most people ASSume the same thing as you - that the vast majority of men and especially any man who is above average, should have no problems with women. That only extremely low value losers would struggle.

But that's not how it works in real life. Anyone who actually observes what's happening in an objective, non-biased way will see this clearly. And RP came up with these theories to try to explain these non-intutive observations.

Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other?

OK, this is an obvious tell that you're bullshitting. Anyone who goes to nightclubs and bars will know that this is very common.

webernicke · 2019-10-06T23:50:01+00:00

Better question...so what if PPD men aren't average? Do you regularly just say "tough shit" to people that aren't average in other ways when they're trying to cope?

MILFBucket · 2019-10-07T01:50:27+00:00

Mathematically, men can't have more partners on average than women do unless bisexuality is taken into account, or something unexpected like that. Those studies are flawed because they're based on self-reporting. I'm also skeptical of those marriage studies' methodologies.

Everything else checks out.

AlwaysNick109 · 2019-10-06T21:02:35+00:00

Good post, the amount of coping and indoctrination in incel culture is insane. Most incels look like this and get their life dictated by the experiences of someone who looks like this. There is two possibilities of all the bullshit that is spewed: 1. The guys who say average can't get girls, are not actually average or close to it. 2. The guys who say average guys can't get girls are average, are so impressionable and emotionally weak, that they fail due to themselves being in their own way.

Shanguerrilla · 2019-10-07T05:12:51+00:00

You are Damn right I'm not average.. Just never claimed to or had those issues.

I completely agree from my feelings, life, and experience---

-average, not average man

volchonok1 · 2019-10-07T05:32:59+00:00

"are 80% of your co-workers single"

Well, not 80, but 35% of my male coworkers are single. While out of the female coworkers (current and past) only a couple were single for any substantial amount of men. So just from my anecdotal experience it looks like for men dating is harder.

Thounumber1 · 2019-10-07T07:33:31+00:00

Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other?

This is mostly correct actually...
where I live, most men are not coupled up based on what I observe.

tgertcher · 2019-10-07T07:44:15+00:00

The thing is many incels are actually average in looks but are weird and shy. As a guy being weird or shy is a death sentence in dating. It just usually doesn't negatively affect women as much because they don't have to take the lead. Also, being quiet or shy are somewhat expected of a girl because of gender roles. Look on r/incelfies, a good chunk of those guys are alright looking. The issue is people say you can change your personality more than your looks but you can't fix neuroticism, shyness, body language, or demeanor any easier than you can fix being fat. In fact, exercise and fashion improvements are much more straight forward than fixing being a weirdo or lack of a social circle. Plenty of people on r9k are in great shape for example but are very "autistic".

Psych0_W0lf · 2019-10-07T07:46:58+00:00

I would like to know what you think of this video

https://youtu.be/7vqRbScCIPU

FairlyNaive · 2019-10-07T12:59:44+00:00

Median lifetime N count of hetero guys is 5. That is the definition of beeing locked out of hookup culture.

FereallyRed · 2019-10-07T16:29:34+00:00

The lower 80 still fuck the lower 80.

Plowhorses needed to plow the fields, stablehands needed to service the horses.

We're talking classes not absolutes.

Like AWALT, and most shit in existence, the reality lives on a bell curve.

We're just talking the best location on that curve.

couldbemage · 2019-10-07T19:17:57+00:00

I don't disagree with your main point, but once again:

It's literally impossible for men to average more partners than women. Unless you count homosexual pairing.

FaraunLoveShady · 2019-10-07T21:09:10+00:00

TL;DR: We're just ugly and that's we're here

Totally agreed on that.

AsclepiustheSage · 2019-10-08T03:58:29+00:00

average men can’t get laid/are incels

The "average" man reportedly has 6-7 partners throughout his lifetime - in reality, it's probably less than that. That may not make you an incel, but I can assure you it's far, far less than most men would desire.

average men are ignored by women

They absolutely are. The bottom 80% of men on Tinder are all squabbling over the bottom 20% of women.

average men are essentially locked out of hook up culture

They abso-fucking-lutely are. See above. Even the large majority of men who get laid only do so in relationships. Then again, hookup culture is a myth, so I guess technically everyone's locked out since it doesn't actually exist.

trail22 · 2019-10-08T07:58:16+00:00

Yeah, thought by working out and being social with a good job I could be average. Yeah nope.

HC73_18 · 2019-10-11T14:38:41+00:00

“men have more sex partners than women”

How is this possible? Assuming that the population is 50/50 men and women, shouldn’t each man-woman pair add a tally to each side? How can one side end up with more partners than the other side?

-TheGreasyPole- · 2019-10-07T01:25:58+00:00

[removed]

HIJKelemenoP · 2019-10-06T23:09:38+00:00

What measurements do you consider average?

I_post_my_opinions · 2019-10-07T00:21:44+00:00

Nah, it's literally just guys not wanting to go below a standard they have set in their head. The main problem with those guys is they don't work on themselves enough to fulfill that standard. Those guys can be in relationships or be having sex and be the guy that the other guys walk out of their house and see with women. They just don't want to pick a girl they don't want.

Unless you literally have some kind of horrible physical issue, you can have sex with a girl. For every below-average guy, there is a below-average girl. And I can understand why guys would rather jack off than fuck an ugly girl. Don't think it's an issue with being or not being average. It's a mental block.

washington_breadstix · 2019-10-07T00:25:57+00:00

Do you see that only 20% of men you see are coupled up? Go to work — are 80% of your co-workers single virgins? Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other? Go to the mall— do you see hordes of 80% men with wedding bands and strollers looking like they’re ready to drive off a cliff? When you stop cherry picking your friends and family who confirm your bias, can you honestly say that 80% of all the men you are royally fucked?

Men merely being in those situations does not mean those men are satisfied with those situations.

poppy_blu · 2019-10-07T00:55:34+00:00

If you believe the above points apply to you, then — I hate to be the one to break it to you — you are not average.

I know for a fact that I'm not average, and I willingly do not participate in the market, and have not for years. I still hold these views.

Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other?

1-7 men do not go to nightclubs as they will not have any real success with a woman in their grade.

It is not impossible for 80% of men. It may be impossible to date a supermodel, to find a unicorn, to have nightly hookups from tinder, to snap your fingers and have hot women jump on your dick.

But it is for women. Any woman above a 3 will have to put next to no effort into finding sex or relationships. Men in that range's chances are up a rat's ass.

Eastuss · 2019-10-07T08:08:32+00:00

I mean I could come up with oodles of research confirming that men have more sex partners than women,

Which is impossible unless there's a shortage of men in society. But we generally have a surplus or equality of men in society until people are 50 years old, then we have a surplus of women.

What's being suggested is that the extrema are more extreme for men than for women.

men report higher satisfaction in marriage than women do, and so on and so forth

Obviously, when you consider 80% of men undesirable and you marry one of those out of no choice, you're going to be unsatisfied.

are 80% of your co-workers single virgins?

The point isn't that 80% of men are virgin, but 80% do and will struggle more than an average woman.

There are a couple 30 year old virgins at my work, several incels, and the men in LTR have never known hookup culture.

Men's looks are a good predictor for their relationship status, women's looks aren't.

Go to a bar or nightclub, are 80% of men you see standing against the wall talking to each other?

Nightclubs and bars are filled by a different population, the average here is above the global young population's average. As a bellow average man, I can tell you I feel like an alien in comparison. Average and bellow average men just don't go there, and when they do, they're not successful.

If you want an accurate depiction of men you should have opened your eyes in highschool. The 80/20 is perfectly visible. 20% of men only are having girlfriends or sex consistently, the next 20% struggle to get a girlfriend and will eventually work this out later, the remaining 60% won't start trying before some years. There's a clear hierarchy and people who are obviously not above it have been put down way before they reach highschool. 50% of girls have boyfriends, most of these boyfriends are older, they work or are college students, women simply don't put up with average men unless they have leverage elsewhere.

You also notice people befriend people of similar looks. If you were only socializing with the popular men, and if later in life you were the kind to go to bars and nightclubs, your view of the average man is probably biased.

dval92 · 2019-10-07T14:02:47+00:00

research confirming that men have more sex partners than women

Source?

khaste · 2019-12-30T04:10:49+00:00

no fucking shit, the people who say average guys are having trouble getting laid are fucking idiots. Its the unattractive men who suffer because they are ugly

Title	CMV: Truth? You’re not average.
Author	poppy_blu
Upvotes	243
Comments	791
Date	October 6, 2019 8:04 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/de8j66/cmv_truth_youre_not_average/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-truth-youre-not-average.289558 https://theredarchive.com/post/289558

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