CMV: Sexually desiring “innocence” and “purity” is hedonistic

ChadChasingB · 2023-03-13T14:06:56+00:00

That's why I would only also be with a virgin choosing to wait for marriage. I don't believe in double standards and neither does my faith in regards to chastity until marriage. I want my partner to share the same values or there's 0 point in not going out and having sex with every hot guy I see. We want sex too!

BigZaddyZ3 · 2023-03-13T14:16:52+00:00

Except you missed the fact that men can desire those traits in a woman for a multitude of reasons.

-He might be religious..

-He might not support casual hookup culture…

-He just prefers a woman who’s less promiscuous and therefore less likely to cheat on him.

There are a ton of legitimate reasons why a guy might prefer a more chaste woman. But what does it even matter to you? Of course we once again see that men aren’t allowed to have a single standard meanwhile every standard a women has must always be respected and never questioned… The cognitive dissonance within these types of posts is incredible..

M3taBuster · 2023-03-13T18:26:11+00:00

Your entire premise is built on a complete misunderstanding. Men who value innocence and purity don't value it because it arouses them sexually. They value it because it's a good trait for a suitable long term/marriage partner. And we also just so happen to want to have sex with our partner.

Safinated · 2023-03-13T14:40:44+00:00

Not if the guy is also a virgin, and plans to have sex in a dutiful way (only for procreation)

EA0713 · 2023-03-13T15:23:31+00:00

How is someones chasity affecting sexual desire?Like there's no connection there I don't understand why you are trying to make that connection.

JDWhiz96 · 2023-03-13T13:56:09+00:00

Ok…and? A TRP tenet is that attraction is not based on morality, so in essence you’re agreeing with that.

Furthermore, women not only pursue their own hedonistic desires without recourse, they are encouraged to do so. Men see this and decide to fight for themselves rather than becoming some mythical holistic being.

wtknight · 2023-03-13T14:12:40+00:00

That’s not about “morals.” That’s about his ego and sexual desires.

It’s also about morals if he is also chaste, or about his morals if he is not promiscuous and she also isn’t. But sure, it can also be about his ego and libido too.

These men wouldn’t mind if women got turned on the same way by the man’s chastity or non-promiscuity, but this doesn’t seem to happen much. Most women seem to prefer men slightly more experienced than them, which could be about the female ego, as well (women wanting to ensure that a man is experienced enough to give her an orgasm).

LeatherCarpet6791 · 2023-03-13T15:00:52+00:00

I am redpilled guy And this is my opinion I dont care about purity(body count ) if it was inside relationship

Ofc if you had to many relationship i will be consider (yellow flag or eventually redflag)

For me guys and girls who is involved in this hookup shit , mostly they are risky for long term relationship

Every guy tell you thats thats its okey for men to do so but women not is a hypocrite .

DumbWordsmith · 2023-03-13T15:13:30+00:00

Just speaking for myself: I wouldn't want to commit to a woman who has slept around.

However, if I were someone who prioritized casual sex and wasn't interested in long-term commitment and building a strong family, I wouldn't care about a woman's past (as long as she didn't have any STDs).

I simply don't want to waste my time, energy, and money on women who are less likely to be loyal to me due to them being jaded and lacking self-control. It's expensive and difficult to recover from. If I'm going to be asked to provide the world, I might as well go for what I want.

I disagree with the idea that purity makes men hornier. That might be true for some men, but I see pure women as more worthy of self-sacrifice, which is something that high-level commitment entails.

I have a natural instinct to protect pleasant, pure women. I don't have any instinct to protect aggressive women who've slept around.

revente · 2023-03-13T15:22:01+00:00

Sexually desiring “height” and “money” is hedonistic as well

LeanderGrant · 2023-03-13T15:37:16+00:00

Hahahahaha!!!! It's gone 180 degrees. That's hilarious. People are funny. It's been such an extreme culture shift over the last 15 years. 15 years ago you were a bad person if you slept around, and now you are a bad person if you don't. Craziness.

Maffioze · 2023-03-13T17:17:07+00:00

ELI5: What is “morally good” about a man desiring “innocence” and “purity” because it makes his dick harder and nut more intense?

Men have sold being “chaste” to women as if it’s about “good morals,” but the “morals” here are “it makes him hornier and satisfies his ego.”

That’s not about “morals.” That’s about his ego and his sexual desires.

The problem with this post is that you didn't actually prove that this is actually true. You don't know why people consider innocense and purity morally good and just stating that it is only about men's ego and sexual desires is overly reductive imo.

keenenandraz · 2023-03-13T15:39:12+00:00

When have the words "innocence" and "purity" ever described something bad? Why is it bad in this context?

Much like a woman who talks about dating "good guys" or "nice guys" unironically as a bad thing. Implying that there is something wrong with those individuals being "good" or "nice" rather than a problem with her own mentality and need to villainize or despite otherwise positive traits. What exactly is wrong with being "good," "nice," "innocence," or "pure," other than not wanting to live up to standards no one is imposing upon you?

obviousredflag · 2023-03-13T14:46:29+00:00

Where are you coming from that you think chastity is sold to women in 2023? People are sold: do whatever you want, there is no right or wrong. Have sex, don't have sex, it doesn't matter, from a moral standpoint.

RahLyt · 2023-03-13T14:36:23+00:00

On the other hand most women (here) assume the reason why a man wouldn't like to date a promiscuous woman then get mad when men rationalize it.

Most I see is "she's a slut, I wouldn't date her", not "she's not morally good for society".

NoInjury1499 · 2023-03-13T15:40:18+00:00

I guess so? But within the bedroom isn't the primary reason to want chastity, it will be a healthier relationship.

Plopolok · 2023-03-14T04:23:54+00:00

There's morality and morality. There's the "golden rule" morality: treat others as you'd like to be treated, which leads to don't kill, don't steal etc. And there's the "chattel management" morality, where society coaxes us to behave as good boys and girls with things like be prude, don't do drugs, brush your teeth, etc. There's some link between both, because the goal of the second is to make society work better overall. Everyone should want everyone else to brush their teeth and stay healthy and productive, and therefore feel morally compelled to do it themselves.

For prudeness, there might have been some amount of hypocritical gaslighting to benefit men's feelings, but it's also true that society functions better overall when sexuality is contained in marital bedrooms. At least it was true in the past when these morals appeared. Today it's more complicated, but sexual hedonism is still a bit tainted.

Scandi_Navy · 2023-03-14T08:42:02+00:00

Virginity and purity has always been about paternity. Because women are guaranteed to be the biological parent, but men rely on a woman's lack of promiscuity for paternity.

It's that simple. And women do not want to extend that guarantee to their husband. Because women are the ones that want to have their hedonistic "hot girl summer" aka getting ran through. And the more partners the higher the likelihood the husband ends up in the sexist family courts, fighting to see his kids.

roger61962 · 2023-03-13T14:44:04+00:00

If you seek sexual pleasure from promiscuity .... just go ahead.

If a man wants a woman not doing that - his desire.

It's just a compatibility issue.

tired_hillbilly · 2023-03-13T14:49:54+00:00

The fewer 'firsts' you have to share with your ultimate partner, the less special they'll be. The less special they are, the less likely the relationship is to survive. Society relies heavily on building and maintaining familial relationships.

Seems morally good to me.

GridReXX · 2023-03-13T14:16:37+00:00

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Luciansleep · 2023-03-13T15:34:28+00:00

Who cares? Women also have hedonistic desires that are sold to men as morals.

An older man with a younger woman? Abuse

A man struggling in dating? Hates women

A man that just wants sex? Fuckboi/ immature

An ugly man approaching? Harassment

Who cares dude? This is how people are.

HungerISanEmotion · 2023-03-13T17:58:06+00:00

Riding a cock carousel and then wanting a faithful, reliable high earning cuck to settle with is also hedonistic.

Why do you expect us to be any better?

h1shman · 2023-03-13T18:02:22+00:00

I’ve found low n women tend to make better long term partners based on their behaviors/attitudes. This has nothing to to with morality.

The more I actually think about it the more I find it has everything to do with social deviance. People who deviate from societal norms like getting covered in tattoos, septum/nipple/hood piercings, have lots of causal sex are social deviants. There is absolutely nothing “wrong” about any of that behavior and it’s praised in other cultures. It’s the attitude of deviancy that might be the root.

If we were like the Greeks just having an orgy every week in the bathhouse the n count thing wouldn’t matter as it’s no longer a counter culture deviant behavior.

Tldr; social deviants make shittier LTRs and woman have been told for thousands of years not to be skanks.

FillThisEmptyCup · 2023-03-13T18:35:07+00:00

Rage against it all you want, I didn’t want used up garbage when I was 12, when I was pure myself. Might just be an instinct, cradlfted through evolution, rather than all this feminist terminology vomit.

FlyV89 · 2023-03-14T03:51:01+00:00

What is “morally good” about a man desiring “innocence” and “purity” because it makes his dick harder and nut more intense?

Oh, a HUGE misunderstood about the male psyche right there.

"Innocence" and "purity" doesn't make my dick hard. Nasty slutty women with a ton of sexual energy and sex appeal make my dick hard.

Innocence, if anything, trigger some kind of overprotective feeling in me, and I think it's the same for most men.

Not that I look for "innocence" in women, at all. Actually, I'm currently seing, on a regular lets say, four women aged 22 to 31 (I'm 33) and one of them, a 24 years old classic small town/country girl, is absolutely innocente, kind hearted, warm, sweet and shy... Literally the "pure (almost) virginal gal" dudes talk about here all the time. She has been with only one guy (as far as she told me) long term since she was 17. Super cute, femenine, traditional minded girl.

If anything, she's the one giving me more problems.

The other women are (somewhat) fine with me seing other girls, and they may bitch here and there but I don't care honestly, I know they are seing other men.

This girl thou, she was fine the first month then she started bitching really hard about our status and pushing for commitment. She calls me on the middle of the night to come over and hug her, she has cried a few times, she says she wants a serious monogamous relationship and whatnot...

And honestly?

I'm fucking falling for it. I mean, I'm a huge manwhore, since always, and she knew that, and I knew it too. But I thought I was over with the feelings of guilt about hurting women and all that crap, and then I find this chick Who, yeah, it's really innocent and has really good intentions and a kind heart, and I cannot hurt her like that you know?

I've even been avoiding the other girls for the past month, only seing them for drinks and a small chat, and I end up making excuses to leave at last moment because I don't want to "cheat" (?) on the other girl, even when we are not in a commited relationship right now.

She calls me and says "are you not coming tonight?" with that tone that makes my heart sink to my stomach and I'm like... Please woman, live this man alone!

Hell, even a break up is seeming really hard right now, because I feel guilty about breaking her heart even more, and I find myself sometimes overthinking the situation, telling to myself "hey dude, what does this gal has that is so special? She's like any other girl you've met".

And then I cannot stop thinking that no, she's not like any other girl. She's like my ex fiancee of 8 years. She's one of the good ones you know. She even has the same age my ex fiancee had when we met.

I was 8 years with that woman. She was about to become MY DAMN WIFE. The break up was so hard that I was actually shaking when we mutually decided to part ways.

And now here I am, in the same fucking situation. What do I do? I keep fooling around and break her heart, I break up with her for once and spare her more suffering and charge with the shame of having hurt a woman that didn't deserved none of it, or I carve in to her demands, stop seing other girls and commit to her... And fail to myself (again).

The funny part is that if she was one of those other girls and she came crying and demanding commitment I would be like... Yah woman, whatever, your route.

But she's not like that. She really likes me. She loves me (or at least that's what she says) and honestly I love her too, and I feel like a strong sense of duty to protect her and be with her.

I'm feeling really weird right now to be honest. I'm just about to give up, I feel trapped, but even then it's not really a bad feeling you know.

And I'm fucking 33 years old. Trapped by a 24 years old girl who doesn't know better. Shame on me.

So that's basically it.

"Innocence" doesn't make my dick hard. It actually makes my heart melt.

If I ever had one, this is.

So basically, men who look for "innocence" in a woman, I think it's all about feeling loved and appreciated.

Most guys who look for good girls don't want to fuck the innocence out of her, they want to love her and take care of her, because, in a sense, we feel like if we take care of her and make her happy, the pure inconditional love that girl has for us will never die.

My grandpa used to refer my grandma as "his flower". My grandma was a saint, God bless her, and my grandpa was a mess haha, that old man gave the woman some real troubles. But she loved him unnconditionally, and my grandpa took care of her until the day he died. On his bed, he told me with his last breath, "you're the man of the house now, take care of grandma".

(As a note, those were also the words of my ex fiancee's father. "Take care of her". That's why, in part, our break up was so hard for me).

So I understand why these men want "innocent" women. They want to feel loved.

On the other hand, I don't need to feel loved and appreciated, I love myself and I hella appreciate the kind of man I am, so basically those needs are covered.

I want to fuck.

But hell, them this girl comes and shatter the ground I walk for the second fucking time in my life and I'm feeling like a chump. Seriously, women underestimate how much they can do with just good intentions and a kind heart.

"They want to abuse innocent inexperienced girls that's why"

Yeah we fucking don't. Not even me and I fit every letter of "a piece of shit" mind you.

-Starship · 2023-03-13T16:06:48+00:00

A woman who is more attracted to a man after seeing that he's good with kids.

A woman who is more attracted to a man because he has a good relationship with his mom.

A woman who is more attracted to a man who is passionate and excels at playing music or some other skill.

A woman who is more attracted to a man who is a leader in his field and exudes confidence.

Etc.

So all of these traits make women's pussies wet and cum harder, right? Because you framing what men desire in such a crass way gives me permission to do the same.

What women find attractive in men and what men find attractive in women is not the same. A woman not having a lot of sexual experience does not make her less sexually attractive, it makes her less romantically attractive. It lessens men's desire to monogamously commit to her unless she has other traits that make up for it.

The_Noble_Lie · 2023-03-13T15:14:38+00:00

Maybe it's about disease and not what you said (in all instances)

PMmeareasontolive · 2023-03-13T15:14:45+00:00

What is “morally good” about a man desiring “innocence” and “purity” because it makes his dick harder and nut more intense?

It makes women's nut more intense too (if you will). The "being a bad girl" fantasy, or the idea that "I'm doing something naughty" is as much a turn on for women as it is for men. Maybe more. Not all women of course, but then not all men are that way either.

Women/girls realizing that is her “red pill” “men are gross” “harsh
truth” moment… because why is their sexual pleasure-seeking being
packaged in such a disingenuous and manipulative way?

Well the "why" is probably because parents didn't want their young women becoming pregnant with just anyone so women's sexuality had to be particularly policed. But that policing was done by women as well as men, and men's sexuality is also policed and characterized in rigid ways (bisexuality makes him unfit as a man, male sexuality is predatory at its core, men must always be ready and available for sex, etc).

I will agree that it seems like it's more dudes doing the policing of women's sexuality in this sub, but I'm not sure that means it's only dudes doing it because women do not debate with other women in this sub. I think dudes doing that are either from conservative cultures (where women may or may not also share those values), or are a relatively minor but vocal group who are bizarrely nostalgic for the good old days of trad conservatism that were never really so great.

armentho · 2023-03-13T16:43:18+00:00

look sex is an action i would only do with a romantic partner im serious about is just who i am

i want a partner with a similar perspective,im not gonna judge if they had sex with former boyfriends/girlfriends (it was done withing a serious relation),but i simply dislike hooks ups and situationships

LimVess1100 · 2023-03-13T16:47:44+00:00

Thinking about it from a woman's desire it's hedonistic.

Thinking about it from a mans perspective its the optimal way to marry and start a family.

Men tend to approach things practically when it comes to starting families. At least that's the way it's been until the last few generations. Now it's all a shit show.

DumpApe135 · 2023-03-13T17:20:41+00:00

Hedonism: Of, relating to, or marked by pleasure

I'll talk about this first on a personal note than on a widespread view.

Personally, I want to be with someone who shares the same values as me, and due to a variety of reasons I think abstinence until marriage is the best when it comes to creating a stable family unit, the ability to say no as a woman makes her attractive to me and there was a good video by Dr. Jordan Peterson on this and he discussed how sophisticated women(ones with good upbringings and what I would consider "high value" say no even when they are offered sex and it again to show they know what delayed gratification is another valuable trait to have. None of what I mentioned is related to pleasure it talks about avoiding pleasure for the greater reward in the future

Moral: Of or concerned with the judgment of right or wrong of human action and character.

Why is it more moral to practice abstinence?

My answer would be that children of couples who wait until marriage are much less likely to end up in single-parent households and are far more likely to end up doing better educationally and financially. This means that the youth are better developed and as a result society should be better as well with lower crime and drug use for instance. If on one hand you have hedonism which is sleeping out of wedlock which leads to less stable family units, more crime, and single-parent homes, and on the other, you have abstinence with better results for children, lower std rates, lower divorce rates, higher martial happiness the ladder is far more moral to me at least but if anyone disagrees please let me know.

CrackerUMustBTripinn · 2023-03-14T00:29:51+00:00

Sexually desiring anything is hedonistic by definition, nothing really wrong with desire. Slutshaming and demanding chaste behaviour has everything to do with men's insecurities about infidelity. Just ignore any of it and live your best life regardless of what anybody says about how you chose to spend your individual sexual bodily autonomy.

gorilla_blanco · 2023-03-14T00:39:45+00:00

I think the same reason women hate to be called a whore is the same reason men don’t like their girls being one

Teflon08191 · 2023-03-14T04:45:02+00:00

ELI5: What is “morally good” about a man desiring “innocence” and “purity” because it makes his dick harder and nut more intense?

Firstly, unless the man is very religious and/or has a virginity fetish, the odds that he assigns any morality whatsoever to a woman's "purity" is likely just a nonsensical strawman.

Secondly, have you considered that men might have other more substantial motives for their preferences than "makes their nut more intense"?

Just because the only line of reasoning you're willing to consider is based in hedonism doesn't mean that hedonism is what motivates men's preferences.

pending_ending · 2023-03-14T05:47:55+00:00

it's likely just a learned pattern, and also partially some kind of evolutionary instinct. to me it seems mostly like a trope, and since it's just a very popular notion that "males desire innocence and youth" men unconsciously weave programming into their value systems (and also reinforcing the emotional value, keeping it strong). or again, it really may be deeply rooted and primal, and yes, in that sense it is mostly just superficial. "men are visual," yanno. and they've been around for a few million years. they've selected females with particular physical features, that was almost the most important indicator for them to copulate with someone. more recently humans have become more complex and have expanded their desires for "deeper" stuff, but those initial markers that males have always been attracted to still seem to be the basis for the more nuanced stuff like personality and connection. it's not just about looks you see, it's also about the act of innocence and youth. and how cute that looks! er...i guess it's mostly about looks. and women are good at those kinds of acts too, so it all sort of works. until.. people start questioning their gender roles, until men get too pushy and too obvious, etc. oh, it also only works if you are in your correct role. like only hot young women are supposed to act like hot young women. so again, quite superficial. males have a very strong image of the ideal female it seems and they do truly seem to deify women, at least the ones who can give a convincing portrayal of that ideal. and when i really think about that, i just find males to be a bit pathetic lols. like, they're so simple. at least in terms of what they look for in the opposite sex. i guess it wouldn't be as bad if they realized that human females are actually not these deities they seek and would stop projecting these fantasies and needs onto them. i guess they're sort of already heading in that direction though, since simple guys can get these desires satisfied with porn. even though real human females make that porn, when dudes watch it obviously that's not their concern. it's just about whatever is happening on the screen and how sexy it looks. so still slaving away to their desires for females essentially, but not having to actually sacrifice time, money, effort, or whatever other prices they'd need to pay when entering a relationship with an actual human. also, it's not really my place to say whether or not men should project their fantasies onto real people, because maybe some females really do fit into the archetype well enough, maybe many even like being that archetype. hint hint, i'm sure many do. but the competition is too high so a lot of women also want to opt out of this race of pleasing men. but the women who are, indeed, young, attractive, and feminine, have a very fun time using their traits and advantages. even if they don't last forever, they can really get you so many useful or just entertaining resources (money, narcissistic fuel/attention). men go crazy for women who fully embrace their feminininity. and women love being embraced. but yeah, stuff like this is is going to start getting harder for the majority to participate in, so people are just getting bitter and opting out on both sides i guess. or trying to opt out lol. the unwanted, rejects of society probably should just opt out and carry on trying to pioneer new paths for themselves, but instead they're screaming at the "high value" normies to change themselves and cater to the ones who are victims of circumstance.

idk if males are really satisfied this way, with opting out i mean. they still seem to be rather unhappy and crave something they can't quite put their fingers on. people argue and debate here all the time about 500,000 topics but somehow completely miss the point. not that there really is one, but if i were to guess, deep down people mostly all want the same thing. males say it's a youthful young feminine female allele lelelele, females will say a strong, confident guy who can handle all my complexity and undying love, lolololol everyone is just lying and parroting the stuff they read like little automatons. well i think females genuinely feel more at ease expressing deeper desires and emotions, and talk more "humanely" and try to often be the moral police, and well that's a different topic though. but yeah, i don't think anyone is really being honest. when people are trying too hard to seem detached and hardened, they're likely hiding a very fragile inner world. or when people are trying too hard to seem warm, open, etc, they're likely hiding some not-so-nice intentions, maybe they don't even know about those darker sides of themselves, maybe they're just fickle and have no real morals and are as ever-changing as the wind. who knows, maybe sex/love dolls are really the answer for males, and cats for females. females do love their attention, but, i think at some point you just get used to having less and less of it as you age. some might never really adapt to that though i guess and become quite depressed too. so i suppose that's why it's often said that women should be using their prime years to find and keep a long term partner. urgh. human relations are just so gross.

personally, if i were to ask anyone "hey what do you find attractive" and they tell me indirectly "oh you know, stuff that's programmed to get my dick hard," i'm just kind of at a loss. i dislike being controlled by biology and really by any external forces that i don't approve of myself. men proudly asserting that they are slaves to their cocks is just sad imo. and i mean in the extremist sense. sexuality to an extent is natural and orgasms are pleasant, and being programmed to find certain stimuli arousing is usually not completely avoidable, or if it is it might take a lot of effort particularly for males, but, to pretend that you have no control at all, or to give up your ability to choose your own motivations is pretty repulsive to me. but also sort of fascinating. i seriously don't know how people can go through life never questioning themselves, "norms," subliminal signals they've been brainwashed by. i guess they're just. too. scared.

Hosj_Karp · 2023-03-14T06:24:58+00:00

Sexually desiring anything is hedonistic. Thats like the definition of the word.

Mrs_Drgree · 2023-03-13T14:33:04+00:00

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CombinationUsed7938 · 2023-03-13T17:15:30+00:00

As I've said a thousand times throughout this sub:

No matter how many logical or moral reasons can exist to justify that desire, none will be the reason behind it.

Because the one and only reason is biological/psychological. Most men are simply wired like that, even if they try to work around it, because that's how their brain is programmed.

Also, it's not about getting harder by "pure" women but actually getting grossed out by "non-pure" ones, which invalidates the fact that it is hedonistic.

Why do people overcomplicate everything?

Reasonable-Software2 · 2023-03-13T17:52:45+00:00

You can replace "innocence" and "purity" with any other adjective.... This argument makes no sense.

LowCreddit · 2023-03-13T19:25:21+00:00

Rejecting socially-lower, promiscuous women is just finely aged wisdom. A wise man once said, "You cannot turn a ho into a housewife." The fool tells himself that he can save her and lives a life of misery, pitied and jeered by everyone around him.

It is telling that you have to set up an entire circuit of questionable premises in order to try flipping the script, calling chastity hedonistic and promiscuity virtue. Chastity is prized because it means that your partner is less likely to cheat on you or abandon you. They take life more seriously, and are less a slave to their animal desires.

The lower classes have been fooled into thinking that free "love" isn't just the decadent phase of prosperous empire. They believe the circus can go on forever, and recoil bitterly even suggesting that it be taken away. But it will. Time marches on. The summer glee will always give way to fall's bounty and then to winter's death.

GridReXX · 2023-03-13T15:58:22+00:00

But some women will not marry/date a promiscuous man. Are they seeking 'innocence' and 'purity' as well?

Or ya know, do they maybe just think they are more likely to cheat or have an STD?

Once again... it's only ever men that are to be held accountable for their preferences.

blaackbackedjackal · 2023-03-13T16:31:54+00:00

You are making up a reason why men would want low Ncount women that literally no man has agreed with on this thread. Just some weirdly sexist shit. Men can have standards for who he wants to commit to, just like women can have standards for who they want to sleep with. Most men prefer a lower N woman because she is less likely to cheat or divorce him.

vivvienne · 2023-03-13T14:33:32+00:00

Well the moral idea stems from the religious tenants that men are supposed to be virgins till marriage as well, whether or not it was dutifully followed is another matter. I've dated and known quite a few religious men who were adamant about the sins of sex before marriage so we never did the deed and they all went on to get married at young ages.

If a guy's trying to tell you you need to be a virgin while he gets to sleep around, he's obviously a douche. If a guy doesn't want to bang and wants a similar partner that's his preference.

juliregalis · 2023-03-13T15:15:01+00:00

Kind of, I agree that sexual pleasure-seeking behavior is quite obscene and vile, I don’t condone it. Also, carnal desires should be the least sought out thing in relationships since it will make it frail, you should bond without such animalistic desires first and for large amounts of time, and secondly I’m pretty sure sexual intercourse should only be used for the purpose of procreation.

Now, I do believe many of the modern Men lack virtue and honor, I believe if you want the most chaste and pure Lady, you should be the most chaste and pure Man. It has to be an equivalent exchange.

AidsVictim · 2023-03-13T15:44:13+00:00

I suppose that's true if we're talking specifically about men that only interested in chastity/"purity" in an erotic or self aggrandizing context.

Most of your assumptions fall apart outside that context however. Generalizing what you're saying is just inverting morality to make hedonism moral; i.e. mens desire for chastity is immoral (because it's exploitative or hypocritical or whatever) so women becoming hedonistic is actually a moral good (by fighting against patriarchy or whatever). This kind of inversion has been a pretty constant view for the last 60 years or so among liberalism.

Women that are low-n count/chaste, tie morality to sexuality, and/or "traditional" do have many practical advantages. Low STD rates, lower divorce rates, longer and strong relationships, higher fertility etc. These are measurable and most people would say good things.

chancetolive · 2023-03-13T16:13:28+00:00

its not to do with morality, its not to do with hedonism or sex/quality of sex either.

Purity/sanctity/disgust are just proxies to the man for how likely it is the woman will have mental scars from the past. This is why the virgin, or woman with only one or 2 n counts is likely to have the qualities he wants in a long term wife, and a mother. Those things in themselves are not "moral" or the "good thing god wants" its simply more stable and creates a happy family, a pillar of society.

It really isnt as complicated as you made it.

GridReXX · 2023-03-13T16:38:50+00:00

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TheDustLord · 2023-03-13T17:15:49+00:00

Innocence and purity mainly means she doesn’t want to be angry at me or ruin my life. That’s not hedonistic.

volster · 2023-03-13T17:21:56+00:00

.... Only in a Godless clown-world could you attempt to spin waiting until marriage as hedonistic.

Then again, while for my sins I'm not a virgin - I'm entirely religious enough to genuinely regret it in retrospect & now be firmly committed to that particular bandwagon.

Still, not everyone's religious so while my gut reaction is "Oh, it entirely is a moral issue - Don't like it? ...Take it up with God" - I'll try and sidestep that side of things.

For a start, i dispute your initial premise of "because it makes his dick harder and nut more intense".

Yes-yes, I'm sure there's some fettishisticly obsessed with "cherry popping" out there, which I'll grant you is creepy AF.... but for most there's nothing of the sort going on.

...If anything It arguably plays more into the puppy-eyed romantic Disney fantasy than being anything especially sexual.

Stereotypically, men are generally inclined to simp... Especially when they fall for someone. Hell, half of TRP focuses on getting them to knock that shit off and view women as they actually are, rather than how the fantasy presents them.

For better or worse, it would seem the desire to pedestalize is fairly innate to varying degrees ... As such the prospect of bae actually having some goddamn virtue is more tied to them being someone actually worth simping for than anything else.

... After all - Pretty much no guy wants to find themselves being the chump who gets saddled with the town bicycle after she's "had her fun" and wants to settle down.

On the other hand, if you've no intention of getting serious and view them as "for recreational use only" of course you're going to tell them whatever they want to hear & play up how it doesn't matter in this day and age.

Men have sold being “chaste” to women as if it’s about “good morals,”

.... I'd argue that historically it was actually women doing so with narratives along the lines of "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free" etc

In particular the older generations shamed young woman into behaving and upholding the cultural status-quo. As it was to women's collective advantage to sell access to sex for as much as they could get for it.

This very noticeably stopped when i was about 15, with a narrative cropping up among the girls in class that "Oh, nobody cares about that any more" - It most certainly wasn't any of the lads attempting to tell them otherwise at any rate. 🤷‍♂️

Frankly, why on earth would they want to shoot themselves in the foot when it came to their own slender prospects of bedding them, by pointing out that doing so was unlikely to be to their benefit in the long run?

... Especially when you'd only find yourself being pilloried and mocked as insecure for your trouble. As such, even if your gut reaction was "...says who!?" you just smile-and-wave'd - After all, if you weren't interested "...What's it to you? Let them have their fun" 🙃

For all the complaining about hookup culture and that nobody courts them properly any more; If women collectively weren't so quick to chase the excitement of short-term sexual gratification over long term commitment - Tinder simply wouldn't exist.

Now, it's a big wide world that takes all sorts - People are perfectly entitled to do whatever they want to do with their lives and I wish them the best of luck in the hunt to try and find someone that's right for them.

Enjoying sex and sleeping with whoever you please in the hope one of them will end up catching feelings is certainly a strategy, and not an entirely invalid one at that.

If anything, I'd argue those inclined to do so are better off being who they are and just owning it; Rather than going through life feeling perpetually deprived and inevitably resentful towards whoever they ultimately end up with.

Still, our choices always have consequences - Going through some doors in life will inevitably close others off two you. By embracing being X type of person, type Y will no-longer be interested.... Regardless of what else you bring to the table.

TBH most of the angry bleating does seem to boil down to sour-grapes upon discovering theirs mean they no-longer represent the universally appealing "prize™️" they'd like to frame themselves as being.

.... Every bit as much as someone who chooses to embrace being an obese basement-dweller and spend their 20's doing nothing but playing videogames and watching porn, rather than making something of themselves.... Is unlikely to exactly be an appealing proposition on the other side of the fence. 🙃

All of that notwithstanding, even if you did accept your premise at face-value - "..... what of it?"

If we say for a moment that this preference entirely is wrapped up in some twisted form of hedonistic sexual gratification.

....Why shouldn't men be entitled to pursue their own gratification shame-free, on the same footing as women now expect to be free to pursue theirs by sleeping around when it suits them without lasting consequence?

Sure, the two are mutually exclusive rendering it a zero-sum game, but it's not like men owe anything to women such as to expected to set their preferences aside in order to accommodate hers.

If you ignore all the moral aspects of it - The reason to avoid promiscuity does ultimately just boil down to "...because men don't like it".

Both men and women are entitled to prioritize their own desires and gratification - However, doing so comes at the cost of not maximizing your appeal to the opposite sex.

Is there a double standard? - Oh absolutely! However, acknowledging the existence of one doesn't magically dispense with it. There's really no way to pretend pursuing your own short-term gratification makes you more desirable at any rate.

As such, purely from the point view of maximizing their own perceived value and therefor options - It's in women's interest to err towards the prudish side in much the same way that it's in men's interest to get in shape and pursue a career over videogames.

You can bitch, moan and decry the dreaded patriarchy until you're blue in the face but... You're just not going to shame-away the bone-deep instinctual revulsion that comes from triggering the whoredar; Which is pretty-much equivalent to most women's visceral reaction to weakness in men.

Both effects and bothers some more than others, but it's nevertheless a more or less universal preference to a greater or lesser degree - It's an ideal, accepting that few things in the real world ever are.

People are complex and ultimately there's a balancing act involved when it comes to whether their appeal is worth the squeeze of the detriments they inevitably also bring to the table (not just with regards to sexual history but in general)

A highly-attractive man is more likely to be able to get away with being either picky, or a bit of a deadbeat (especially when it comes to casual). A highly-attractive women is more likely to be able to get away with having a past or some emotional baggage.

Even if it does end up dinging them a couple of points off their "score" - They remain sufficiently above-average to still appeal on balance that they can afford to take the hit.

Where people tend to get burned is when they're middling at best, and are then [surprised-pikachu] to discover the same doesn't apply to them & that doing so moves them below the par they'd otherwise have reasonably expected for themselves.

Scarce12 · 2023-03-13T19:51:42+00:00

High n-count women often have personality disorders. About 30% of women do to some extent.

abaxeron · 2023-03-13T14:31:13+00:00

Men have sold being “chaste” to women as if it’s about “good morals,”

No; men have sold being "chaste" to women as if we're neither going to wife up a slut out of her misery, nor explain our motives why we don't want to.

The complaint that it became somehow tied to morality goes right towards the women who tell it to each other.

panascope · 2023-03-13T21:23:59+00:00

ELI5: What is “morally good” about a man desiring “innocence” and “purity” because it makes his dick harder and nut more intense?

Temperance has been understood as an extremely important virtue for literally thousands of years.

JNRoberts42 · 2023-03-13T17:22:30+00:00

Of course men can afford to embrace the idea they will enjoy good sex with an inhibited or repressed woman in a marriage, because they know they are going to get off regardless.

They don't care about their future wife enjoying sex or a mutually satisfying sexual relationship. They care about controlling someone they can ejaculate into.

wtffellification · 2023-03-13T18:03:31+00:00

I mean, I wouldn't want to eat a rotten hot dog and that's because I don't want to die. And I also wouldn't enjoy it that much, probably

Whether that's hedonistic or whether I might also be contributing something beneficial (and therefore morally good) to society by, well, not dying right now; I don't know. What was your point again?

Capeninja · 2023-03-13T19:56:45+00:00

The problem is assuming that's the universal cause for the preference, instead of some men just wanting partners who are likely to have stable relationships.

SkookumTree · 2023-03-13T21:02:05+00:00

It really depends. Is this man also personally valuing chastity, turning down opportunities to have sex outside of a committed relationship? Or is he a hypocritical fuck, wanting a chaste virgin after fucking half the damn town?

The former is admirable, or at least consistent. The second is hypocritical and at least a little gross.

Appropriate_Car2697 · 2023-03-13T22:20:32+00:00

I used to be like “I want a virgin girl” and such because I’m a virgin rn and I’m 18 so ig I just saw shit online which made me want a girl who’s “pure” but now I genuinely don’t really care and just want someone who isn’t a mean person.

James_Cruse · 2023-03-14T07:42:40+00:00

No, you’ve misunderstood why men want “purity” - they want it because it’s a biological MATING adaptation - it’s coded in men’s DNA to want this. It’s a survival adaptation.

You must be a woman - women think that EVERY action and decision people make is due to culture/the media/educational influence - rather than just people making choices based on biological drives.

You’re just shaming men for these biological drives (that men can’t change and have no control over) by using words like “it’s your ego”.

You can’t change men’s biological wants and desires with shame - it’s never going to work.

statsfodder · 2023-03-14T12:35:05+00:00

I desire what I want regardless of society's opinion. If I want a chaste, not obese, actual woman whose genitals haven't been splayed across the internet who is anyone to say "no you are not allowed to"??

Shall we constantly shame men who want other men or women who want other women?? Maybe we put them into camps and "persuade" them to want something more "normal"?? ... in other words quit trying to shame men for having standards or desires. until society shames women for wanting 6'er men I couldn't care any less about how hypocritical my wants may seem.

LillthOfBabylon · 2023-03-13T19:18:44+00:00

The virgin fetish today isnt about morals.

Historically, virginity was important because paternity tests weren't a thing and the men didn't want to be tricked into raising another’s man’s child.

Now the virgin obsession is about men who are terrible selfish sex partners wanting to brainwash women to believing that all guys are terrible like he is.

Most importantly, there’s an overlap between men who want ‘pure’ women and men who get mad when women dont fuck immediately. Meaning, its more about seeing women as objects these guys want to fuck the unused objects.

Its not about morals, its insecurity and objectification.

PurplePillDebate-ModTeam · 2023-03-13T14:07:50+00:00

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LupeDyCazari · 2023-03-13T15:36:06+00:00

I dunno.

I've been with three virgins myself.

One was an European woman who was raised since pretty much childbirth with only women, and went to all-girls schools pretty much until college, and the other was a Sharia Law woman whose family moved and she went along, to Germany, and the other was a Shinto shrine priestess.

Let me tell you.

I dunno about other dudes, but to me, it doesn't really matter how physically attractive they are, if they lack sexual experience. I like women who are sexually aggressive.

In fact, ever since I was a very little boy and my grandpa took me to visit a Geisha, I've always been extremely captivated by the women who work in the pleasure quarters.

Pornstars, camgirls, stripers, oppai bar girls, escorts, you name it.

And a brothel to me, especially those very elaborate, very high-class brothels, have always been like visiting a distant, fantastical, magical world.

There's an escort agency based in Germany that requires it's patrons to have a patrimonial of at least 8 million dollars, and if I remember correctly you have to be first invited by a member before you can apply to join, to become a patron.

One of my dreams is to be able to join but huh, I'm poor as shit with how much money I already spend on escorts and it's not like I could get to 8 million dollars before I exit my thirties and grow even more, really old.

Maybe I should be ashamed of saying this, but I can't get hard with virgins?

I can't get even a little stiffy, little weenie hard with women who've been with very few men. In fact, I don't think I can even develop feelings for women who haven't fucked a lot of dudes(100+).

My girlfriend is probably the rp's dream girl; young, beautiful, fit, low n-count, loyal, dedicated etc, and yet, I am bored out of my mind, and I find myself seeking out, every night, this high-end escort who suffers from a sex addiction and despite being only in her 20s, has already fucked a thousand dudes.

I find feelings and emotions to be a detrimental.

'Cause when you love a woman, I suppose you are not likely to sleep with other women? Because that would hurt the woman you love? I think that's how humans work?

But I'd say that the closest I've ever been to actual feel something for someone, is the same woman the red pillers would not even want to be seen going on a date with. Ain't that shit funny.

I dunno.

I'm extremely fascinated by these women because they rule over the hearts and the groins of powerful, rich men.

Those virginal, goody 2-shoes, low-N women who are loyal to their husbands and whatever bore me.

oh, and I'm not a red piller nor do I belong to any pill. I'm just a douchebag, like so many dudes before me lololol.

slazengerx · 2023-03-13T19:59:15+00:00

Why is sex held up on some "morality" pedestal? Centuries of religious wackos dictating some manufactured morality to the impressionable masses? It's just an activity to be enjoyed between adults that can result in a new human or disease if you're not careful. It ain't a whole lot more than that.

TheS3KT · 2023-03-15T19:51:30+00:00

Seems like a lot of feminist rage and lack of understanding men. Men have preferences just like women and belitting what they prefer is not the right way to do things.

Women have easier access to sex and people in general give value to something that is rare or hard to aquire. A man will always value a woman who is chaste over one that is not because out of all the men in the world she chose him. That's a kind of bond that's hard to be unfaithful to as a man.

Also religion plays a factor. Third wave feminism and the easier access to contraceptives have put even a larger value on purity. I don't see it decreasing either.

There is something special about a woman or a man who has the discipline to save themselves for marriage.

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PurplePillDebate-ModTeam · 2023-03-13T14:30:22+00:00

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PurplePillDebate-ModTeam · 2023-03-13T14:36:51+00:00

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PurplePillDebate-ModTeam · 2023-03-13T14:38:10+00:00

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QncyFie · 2023-03-13T16:53:24+00:00

Kinda a big thing to desire with nothing to bring in

TempoIndigo · 2023-03-13T17:47:27+00:00

the only reason men want a woman is to fuck, men obvs dont want women for any other reason

Touch grass, reddit mod

DarthMemus · 2023-03-13T18:04:08+00:00

you don't understand men

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2023-03-13T21:11:32+00:00

There's nothing wrong with having sexual discipline, if that's not for you the live your life and let others live their's.

bodaciousbonsai · 2023-03-14T07:26:29+00:00

Why should anyone bother explaining anything to you when you've already used 5 paragraphs to answer your own question? If you really wanted others to explain, your post would have ended before you started your massive strawman starting at the word "because."

KillerCroc40 · 2023-03-15T11:29:16+00:00

There's a statistical correlation between premarital sex partners and martial happiness. The more premarital sex partners you have, the less likely you are to be in a long lasting marriage.

It has nothing to do with hedonism or ego or sexual desires. You can go ahead and call it that, but it doesn't change the fact that hooking up permanently damages your body's ability to pair bond.

CommunicationNo9896 · 2023-03-15T18:10:30+00:00

Men don't value virginity or purity for sexuality, but for relationships and trust.

katyushas_boyfriend · 2023-03-15T22:20:37+00:00

You're making two claims here.

!. It's not "morally good"

It's hedonistic

I don't necessarily disagree with the former, I do disagree with the latter.

You have provided no evidence that it's a sexual preference, that men are "aroused" by chaste women.

In one other comment you claimed that you "know" men find chaste women arousing because of your own personal experiences growing up in Christian communities, but the problems with using anecdotal experiences as evidence for how people generally behave have been pretty thoroughly hashed out on PPD. I could just as easily claim that the men I know prefer chaste women for some other reason. How do we know who is right.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/11qacol/cmv_sexually_desiring_innocence_and_purity_is/

This is a far more compelling explanation for why men prefer more chaste women. Your post and comments are pure conjecture, whereas social science research has repeatedly demonstrated a link between promiscuity and relationship satisfaction/infidelity, especially in women.

Wanting a partner who is less likely to cheat and more likely to be satisfied remaining in a monogamous relationship would not be considered "hedonistic" by most people.

capriciousComposer · 2023-03-16T16:26:27+00:00

Hardly hedonistic. Both parties entering in a relationship should be pure and innocent. so just as the girl is expected to be so should the guy. We've fallen so very far from how things are supposed to go: one man, one woman, both lose their innocence together and subsequently stay together.

BirdMedication · 2023-03-16T17:02:24+00:00

Hedonism is only bad if you pursue pleasure at the expense of other things. By itself it's not really morally right or wrong, maybe just meaningless.

Title	CMV: Sexually desiring “innocence” and “purity” is hedonistic
Author	GridReXX
Upvotes	52
Comments	488
Date	March 13, 2023 1:53 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/11qacol/cmv_sexually_desiring_innocence_and_purity_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-sexually-desiring-innocence-and-purity-is.1176393 https://theredarchive.com/post/1176393

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