If women are fed up with dating men, isn't it on the men to change?

midwesternMD · 2022-08-13T22:19:53+00:00

I don’t think it’s on men to change because women are fed up with dating men.

I think it’s on men to change if they’re fed up with their dating experience. And it’s also on women to change if they’re fed up with their dating experience. Basically, don’t be the idiot doing the same thing 100 times expecting a different outcome.

At some point, each individual can “offer more,” “demand less,” or “exit the market.” What each of those things looks like from one person to the next can be very different.

Like I can bitch all I want about the lack of fit <32yo women who are childless but might want to start a family with me. But if that woman doesn’t enter my life, I can loosen my standards, learn how to be completely happy/fulfilled alone, or I can take steps to become noticed by that population of women.

In a lot of ways, giving up on the wife/house/kids thing (demanding less) could be great. I could start right swiping on the hot single mothers. I could ask the single mothers who I do meet on second dates. I wouldn’t need to think about budgeting for a family-sized house, I wouldn’t need to save for kids’ college/private school expenses, I could stop paying for life insurance, etc.

But since I still want the wife/kids/house thing, I can either relax some of my attraction standards (not happening anytime soon), lift my age filter (might consider it, though not without reservations), or I can improve myself. I chose option C. I did some self reflection, and years ago decided to put some more effort into fitness/style, picked up some interesting (and very rewarding) hobbies, did some therapy, etc.

At some point, I might decide that I am as optimized as I can be. And if I’m unhappy with whose interest I draw, it’ll be up to me to decide how to proceed.

That doesn’t mean that the onus to change is on men like me. This only illustrates my experience and my options in a world where people have free will.

AdobiWanKenobi · 2022-08-13T23:36:22+00:00

Swap the genders and this would be an Incel post

TheRedPillRipper · 2022-08-13T22:59:28+00:00

The nice guy trope has become a meme for undateable/fuckable men and has become synonymous with "creep,wierdo,incel" . Why would anyone want to do that to themselves?

Women constantly go for men with the traits you described. Its only natural that more and more men will adopt those traits in order to be more succesful with women. Stop rewarding borderlineASPD behaviour with sex and the men will adapt to whatever you value.

This cuts both ways. Guys blame women for their sky high egos and extreme standards but what are you supposed to do? We run after you ,desire you, want you from the moment you start puberty there are a billion men wanting to be with you even if you are below average.We reward you for simply just existing. Of course women are gonna have unrealistic standards when they dont even have to try to pull most men.Thats how you end up with studies confirming that women see 80% of guys as below average.

If we kept our dicks in line and didnt dance around you like monkeys just for the sake of being with you, you would adapt too.

The problems in the opposite gender are usually because of the other one setting standards(or not at all). Its just shitty to admit.

beleidigtewurst · 2022-08-14T12:14:11+00:00

The main issues to me seem to be lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, lack of accountability, and aggression or violence.

Ahaha, right.

So the select top 20% of the crop that women find attractive enough to do simple bang-bang are suddenly reluctant to demonstrate commitment?

Oh, wow, why could that be, chuckle... :)))))

domdomdom333 · 2022-08-14T01:01:16+00:00

Men don't get to improve their behaviours mature because they don't get dates in the first place.

Personally I'm worried about this exact thing. Extremely little relationship experience so that's why I work, go to the gym, eat healthy and make good financial decisions just to be rewarded with one Tinder match each month with a girl that's clearly conflicts with all my life's values.

D_D_BA4 · 2022-08-13T22:58:59+00:00

"lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, lack of accountability, and aggression or violence." None of these will stop you getting into relationships or getting laid. There is no right way to be a man in the current climate everything you do is wrong. Too nice, not nice enought, too emotional, too stoic, lack of aggression and masculinity, too masculine. Everything you do is a problem.

statsfodder · 2022-08-13T23:34:35+00:00

Yet another men = bad... women = wonderful post.

Oh and that is a CMV. Not a discussion post.

RealAmericanWeasel · 2022-08-14T01:44:17+00:00

I don't buy that women are fed up with dating men. I am a guy in my 40s who has never dated and I have always wanted to. If there were such a groundswell of dissatisfaction someone such as me would be a ready made alternative to that. I have no bad track record and could never stand accused of doing any of the terrible things you talk about. I think whomever is so "fed up," (if there truly are such people, I have no idea) is a very vocal sliver of the female population at large.

fnonpm · 2022-08-13T21:24:15+00:00

Let me look up a list of dating partners I hurt

Wait it's zero

Naw I'm not going to be punished for something another human did I'm just waiting for the days of vr

Antonija_Blagorodna · 2022-08-14T09:49:14+00:00

"Women are perfect and men are the only source of problems in dating."

That's OP.

Paranoidexboyfriend · 2022-08-13T21:41:20+00:00

People respond to incentives. If women want men to change, they have to offer an incentive to change. The incentive men respond to is sex. Whatever type of men women fuck the most, that's the type of men most men are going to try and be.

Women can complain about lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, lack of accountability, and aggression. But they fuck guys with all those traits all the time. If women mainly only wanted to fuck scientists, mankind would've invented the warp drive, a cancer cure, and developed an AI that evolved into the singularity by now.

Whatever women select for when it comes to sex, that's the traits men are going to focus on developing. If women really wanted men to stop being violent, have more empathy, and to be more emotionally mature, they'd stop fucking violent immature men with no empathy, regardless of how tall he is or how symmetrical his face is.

Fun_Push7168 · 2022-08-13T23:49:50+00:00

Idk, I'm kind of a shithead to most women. Plus I drive a shitty car, make mean income, have a pretty shitty house buuut I'm ranking about 7 on photofeeler and there's almost always some women trying to get together with me while I watch friends that are probably much better selections struggle.

So obviously this is not applicable to all women or anything but at least some subsets I think the women should maybe re-evaluate their priorities or stop to think about how they're being treated instead of whether it feels thrilling, or let it go when they are having to be the chaser.

I feel like a lot are like playing with a cat...where they only want the toy if I tease, then pull away. If I'm like , here ya go, have at it, then they just walk away. They stay if I wear them out enough to just lay down with the toy.

Honestly the ones I treat well lose interest more often and they are usually the ones that aren't as good looking but I just get along better with.

I guess in other words, I've been taught by women to act a little bit shitty and disinterested. They only complain when it doesn't end in their favor.

I'm the guy they're fed up with, but will keep going for until they're frustrated, but it doesn't pay to be the good guy.

dJ_86 · 2022-08-14T02:57:26+00:00

I give up. Online dating has ruined women.

RedditorSafeSpace · 2022-08-13T22:24:43+00:00

Why should we change just because you’re unhappy we won’t conform to you?

drew8311 · 2022-08-13T21:21:13+00:00

I think both are fed up equally. Usually the best solution is self improvement which widens your dating pool and higher chance of finding someone who you won't be fed up with. If you keep meeting the same quality people, your going to get the same results.

rosesonthefloor · 2022-08-14T02:12:09+00:00

By the same token, wouldn’t it make sense that when men are fed up with dating women, that it’s on the women to change?

buntyisbest · 2022-08-14T01:54:09+00:00

Honestly, I think men are the ones who are slowly getting fed-up of dating women. The courtship, the rejection, the drama, the roaming eyes, etc. A lot of women have no idea how mentally draining it is for a man to date a woman in this day and age. Moreover, women generally hold all the chips when it comes to dating. They decide who to date, who to fuck, who to friendzone, who to get into a committed relationship with, etc. It is rarely ever a man's decision. What I've personally noticed in the past couple of years is that men are slowly realizing how fucked up the dating and relationship market is for them and are starting to opt out of it. Especially when paid sex is on the table.

Gaycunt453 · 2022-08-14T04:30:27+00:00

Women say they are fed up with those kinds of men, but those are the guys they choose to date and fuck

Solid_Rice · 2022-08-13T22:38:28+00:00

I think you have it backwards. Its a lot of men going their own way cause theyre fed up with modern women.

Lack of empathy, selfishness, narcissism, overly materialistic being the reasons why theyre fed up

I know cause I'm one of those men

John_Oakman · 2022-08-13T21:22:06+00:00

The problem is that most men & males react to incentives, specifically materialistic/worldly incentives. Convince men/males to pursue moral virtues instead of worldly/materialistic incentives and the rest will naturally follow.

Of course, it's also very difficult to get that first part done.

HuckleberryThis2012 · 2022-08-13T22:20:40+00:00

No that’s ridiculous. If you don’t want to date us as we are then don’t. We don’t actually care. This is like when RP types say it’s on women to lower their standards bc women won’t date them as they are. If you don’t like us that’s your problem, not ours. We’re happy with who we are, and plenty of women like us as we are. You can be with other women, be with a man who acts like a woman, or die alone. Who gives a shit

narfywoogles · 2022-08-13T21:29:54+00:00

I think the issue can be summed up as;

5/10 women will only ever desire a 7/10 man at the minimum and would rather stay single for life than to 'settle' for a 6/10 man, or to be 'fair' and get a 5/10 man.

I can understand that people don't like this but, this has effectively been proven countless times on this sub, men do it too of course, but unlike women they're okay with a 5/10 or even a 4/10 if he himself is a 5/10. In this regard men are more reasonable, as to why this is the case may or may not reduce the legitimacy of them being more reasonable, however, the end result remains the same, as they show a willingness to 'settle' (even with an equal partner) that many women seem to lack

We can go on and on about how the issue is all on men, but are we actually going to believe that nearly the entire male population is so bad that women can't tolerate them? What's so strange is that whenever women complain about the actions of men, they're taken for their word blindly, and yet, when men do the same they're either ignored at best or demonized at worst.

Isn't it true that men tend to have an absolutely horrible time with dates? Just getting a date in the first place is hard, but on dating apps you get nothing but one word response 999/1000 times. At the same time, first date after first date where everything is totally going okay and she seems to be having a good time, only for her to back out and refuse a second date, or just ghost you altogether.

There is literally this crazy new phenomenon where a substantial portion of the male population (like 1/3???) is effectively out of the dating market and yet they're part of the bad guys too haha

Beyond this, consistently you will find post after post with very viable arguments and sources that clearly paint a picture as to how difficult it is for men, and how a number of difficulties can effectively be blamed on women for being unreasonable or even dishonest at times. Like how many countless times would a PPD woman chime in with her 'exception to the norm' example and then act like that alone disproves a point?

Not only this, but seemingly, women would rather live their lives alone and unhappy rather than to approach a man that catches her eye. What bothers me too is that quite often women effectively attempt to use telepathy to communicate with a man that she desires, I remember I saw a tweet about a woman that liked a guy so she just sat close to him on the bus, that was her entire attempt at getting his attention, absolutely insane haha

pimoflex69 · 2022-08-14T11:34:13+00:00

Women also lack empathy. It's quite annoying to constantly be told it's men that lack empathy towards women when it's insanely common for women to be massively dismissive of men's experiences and insensitive to their insecurities. while men are constantly coached to under the female experience and placate women's insecurity.

Everyone should want to self improve, but this idea that women are the baseline of good and haven't got any work to do on their attitude or what they offer to relationships, or being better communicators is silly to me. (Women are also extremely bad communicators imo, rarely say what they mean, keep things bottled up until an argument, struggle with assertiveness, gossip, rumors etc)

I just want to see people address both things. All this pressure on men to reinvent themselves and their whole life is so one sided and almost certainly adds to the suicide count imo

pimoflex69 · 2022-08-14T12:10:32+00:00

Standards for men:

Men are expected to have a job/career (something that takes most of your life to study for or achieve well in etc) and provide.

Have hobbies interests and passions (again things that take up big parts of your life studying and practising)

Be emotionally available and empathetic while also being emotionally stable (despite any trauma or baggage)

Be generally attractive

Be confident and assertive but not too much that you are arrogant or aggressive

Men are expected to initiate all romantic interactions, which is again, something that takes years to learn how to do and is absolutely crushing for many men due to a lifetime of rejection

Men are expected to cater to any insecurity or emotional baggae a woman has

Have a knowledge of women's struggles and issues

Be a protector and put your health, safety or even your life on the line EVEN FOR WOMEN YOU DON'T KNOW. But definitely for the women you do.

Be introspective and constantly learn from mistakes. Stone and take responsibility.

There's probably more if anyone wants to add to this. But as you can see the pressures on men are many and are quite high and hard to achieve. Now, are men living up to these standards? I'd say most are or are trying to. But it is a lot, and men are judged harshly for not meeting these criteria, by men but mainly by women. And a little empathy towards that situation would go a long way. But instead men are told they are incels if they complain about these standards.

While women complain about expectations to be slim,.sexy, mother's etc. And nobody bats an eye. It's empowering and women finally speaking up when women do it! Like seriously?

Visual_Perception_92 · 2022-08-13T22:03:30+00:00

There are men that don’t have those issues but just aren’t attractive to said women, the reverse is also true for men. The problem is the way society treats with women as opposed to men

Laytheblameonluck · 2022-08-14T19:05:11+00:00

High n-count women are fed up with dating and you want men to fix it?

How about women just keep it in their pants.

TwoShed · 2022-08-13T23:55:02+00:00

"I've been to several restaurants, and none of them meet my expectations, it's on them to change."

Kentucky_Supreme · 2022-08-14T02:19:40+00:00

If "good behavior" is what got a positive result from women, chivalry would be back almost over night, lol. Women incentivise the bad behavior.

Also, I'm assuming you're only speaking about insanely attractive guys since the others are most likely completely invisible to you. Good guys do exist. The fact that a lot of women complain that they can't seem to find them kind of supports how invisible they tend to be. That's what it seems to be going on just based on what I've observed.

femm-fatale · 2022-08-13T21:58:30+00:00

What in the misandry/gynocentrism is this 🤯

wtknight · 2022-08-13T22:21:30+00:00

Young men don't see young women "fed up with guys". They see them having sex with high value guys. It's usually not until women get older that they start getting fed up with guys. Young men aren't concerned about these women, though. They want to be the men who the young women are having easy sex with.

KarmaChameleonian · 2022-08-13T21:16:17+00:00

Of course women as a whole are more likely to blame their dating woes on men, just like men who have dating problems blame it on women. Have some common sense.

NockerJoe · 2022-08-13T21:14:48+00:00

The overwhelming majority of men I know who were empathetic and mature and passive thought of getting a girlfriend as the same difficulty as scaling everest. The dudes I know who turned it around said more or less explicitly the best thing you can do is let that part of you scar over.

The traits you're describing are the ones that, statistically increase your chances, and by a lot. Women complain about those men not because all men are violent or crazy, but because on average being violent or crazy is better if you want to hold a womans attention.

If you want a better guy they aren't hard to find. Most of them just don't want one. They want to complain the guys they did want act like the guys they always were.

parahacker · 2022-08-13T21:53:25+00:00

I pointed out the issue with this a while ago, got a gold star for it, and of course the point was promptly lost in the waterfall of bullshit present here.

So here we go again: The problem isn't that women want a good man. The problem is that women want a man that's better than the men next to him.

And while having a relative system of value is entirely workable in small doses, such as a tribe where a woman has 4 men to choose from... that situation, choosing the guy 'better than' is a great idea. BUT. When you reach the scale of cities with millions and people on the opposite side of the world having instant communication with you, you run into this little eensy-weensy problem called the 'Pareto Principle'. Which, while not quite being the same thing as the '80/20' rule espoused on this subreddit, is still pretty bad and in some ways worse.

Until this situation changes, dating is broken. Point blank. It is not working.

And yes, it's women's fault. I mean, not really, in the broader scheme; we are all but bouncing atoms sent to each other from the deaths of primordial stars.

But in the immediate sense, what women are doing in their role as gatekeepers of sex and relationships is fucking up the program, spiking the gasoline, a bug in the vaccuum tube array, and also mildly annoying.

Either we need women to quit it with the relative valuation and change to a roughly 'absolute' valuation system, similar to what men do regarding appearance, and one that doesn't exclude the majority of men; or, failing that, we need women to not be the gatekeepers anymore, because they're doing a shit job of it. Or, most likely, we need do nothing and let things sort themselves out, and probably endure a period of Soshuko-dansi while painfully waiting for cultural mores to catch up to the realities of a hyper-connected world. With most of the pain being experienced by men, because fuck men who cares about those bastards anyway, amirite? They, like, historically oppressed women and stuff, so they, like, deserve it and all that. Which we will believe despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, because it allows our sisters and daughters and mothers to collectively act like raging cunts and be praised for it.

Ahem. Anyway. The key concept you're missing, OP, is 'relative value'. As in, women don't 'continually have bad experiences with men'; they just are seeing the grass be greener on the other side of the computer screen, and deciding all their experiences are 'bad' instead of realizing the shit they are smelling is from their own shoe.

2022-08-13T23:37:18+00:00

Pre-coitus, men present, women choose.

Post-coitus, men choose to have a relationship or not. Women choose to stay in that relationship or not.

Women aren’t fed up with having sex with men, they are fed up with not being chosen after sex, or by men not maintaining energy in the relationship as the months and years drag on.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-08-13T23:06:30+00:00

The main issues to me seem to be lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, lack of accountability, and aggression or violence.

Aggression and violence among men has declined for about 50 years straight.

Also-- women's empathy and emotional maturity is in the toilet as well. Yes, men are immature and selfish. Just like women are sophilistic and immature as well.

Literally our whole society has these issues

stereoroid · 2022-08-13T21:46:46+00:00

I'd sit you all down and make you watch the movie Grease. Do you really think it's enough to tell men to change, then sit back and just expect it to happen? You list a bunch of negative traits that men should lose, but where are the positive traits that should take their place? Keep telling men they're bad, then act surprised when they go "OK, I'm bad" and walk away?

In my opinion, women need to get their hands dirty and help, not just sit back and snipe at men from the sidelines. Understand that you both need to grow, and help each other become the best versions of yourselves.

social_mule · 2022-08-13T21:40:13+00:00

It's on the men to change if they feel women are worth the effort. Otherwise no.

ReferenceImpossible2 · 2022-08-13T23:56:24+00:00

“””emotional immaturity””” is the most vague, ill-defined term I keep seeing getting thrown around here. What does that actually MEAN?

abaxeron · 2022-08-14T03:32:09+00:00

isn't it on the men to change?

Yes. Ultimately, everything depends on men.

I notice there are issues with the behavior of men across the board... The main issues to me seem to be lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, lack of accountability, and aggression or violence.

Men of today are less violent than men of all of recorded history and unrecorded prehistory.

Considering that by your anecdotal example and overall picture, the more men improve, the more women complain, the right course of action to change for men would be stop doing what women demand and start doing what is right.

optimus69prime69 · 2022-08-14T09:00:35+00:00

"Men are one long breeding experiment run by women" is said by a Harvard professor of anthropology. How men act in mating market is defined by women since they're the choosers.

isn't it mostly on the men to change their behavior and outlook problems?

There are different men out there as men have less social plasticity than women which makes men more diverse in behaviour. Are those men getting women? No they're not, because words and actions of women don't match.

Women's words and actions don't match. They don't look for kindness or whatever it is that you think you want. Women want one subset of men, which are tall, extroverted and experienced with women. Basically anything beside this is a no go for them.

And if you disagree you can always initiate/ask out the men you think are good and see for yourself that female monkey brain only chooses what I just described.

The main issues to me seem to be lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, lack of accountability, and aggression or violence.

Get rejected 60 times and see what you will become. You can judge from you ivory tower but have to accept that this is the result of your action.

kboogie82 · 2022-08-14T13:38:09+00:00

Men haven't changed women have. We are 50% of the equation. Most women are not wife and mother material, it would be nice for some women to move it that direction.

purplish_possum · 2022-08-13T23:52:32+00:00

Of course, it's incumbent on men to change. However, OP is wrong about what needs changing. Men need to be more masculine -- not more sensitive. Indeed men being emotional little pussies is at least half the problem.

jay10033 · 2022-08-14T00:11:26+00:00

They should stop dating men. Remove themselves from the market and remain alone. If in fact their presence is important in the market, the market will adjust its product to attract their participation back in the market. Until then, maintain your threat and stay out of the market.

Ivannnnn2 · 2022-08-14T00:56:47+00:00

If women are fed up and don't want to engage anymore, isn't it mostly on the men to change their behavior and outlook problems? It doesn't seem like women are the ones with the issue here.

And were is the evidence that women don't want to date and men do? Men not wanting to date women is so popular that MGTOW became mainstream-ish. Without giving evidence you can create any narrative.

Who says it's not the women who became too entitled?

Women have a movement behind them which men do not, and it has become socially acceptable to criticize men while not women. Who says that is not what convinced women men are bad?

As for aggression and violence, men are the least aggressive/violent they have ever been. Why would women decide to not engage now?

Or who says it's not because they simply have less of a need for it because they get intimacy from female friends and sex easily over dating apps.

Again, without giving evidence you can create any narrative.

If women are fed up and don't want to engage anymore, isn't it mostly on the men to change their behavior and outlook problems?

It's a negotiation. They can also just decline the request.

RepresentativeSwan1 · 2022-08-14T01:10:57+00:00

Men can't change the things that women refuse to date men on the basis of (hint; it's not the things you mentioned).

ThankMeForMyCervixx · 2022-08-14T02:48:17+00:00

(For the most part) People get what they give. I have had wonderful experiences with men since fixing my own bullshit. When I had baggage, I attracted baggage. Sure, there are outliers but if we all work on ourselves first, the dating pool of healthy people increases and the cycle of creating more bitter damaged and dysfunctional people/relationships decreases.

GYN-k4H-Q3z-75B · 2022-08-13T21:24:55+00:00

What kind of twisted logic is that? Men are fed up with women because they are, on average, not getting any attention, or have to jump through so many hoops and live with crazy behavior just to get some. Isn't it on women to change then?

This goes to show how crazy that logic is. Nobody is entitled to anything.

QueenofSex1 · 2022-08-13T22:08:07+00:00

I’m a dominatrix and men pay me to treat them like shit and peg them up the ass. They like it. Men can’t be changed a woman is stupid for thinking she can change a man. The only way a woman dominates and changes a man is if he wants her to. But then he quickly regresses back to his natural disposition.

RandomRedditGuy322 · 2022-08-13T21:31:08+00:00

Women having negative experiences with men is directly correlated to and caused by the systemic misandry that has led to young men falling behind women in numerous key areas such as academic progression and succeeding to get out of the house and start a life of their own.

Women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a strong, successful, respectful man in her life who can support himself, but she doesn't want to advocate for men's causes or advance men's education or career prospects. She just assumes someone else will do it, or men should just "be better" and treat men's failure as completly a result of personal failings.

In other words, she wants a perfectly wrapped finished product of a man ready for her when she settles down, without putting in any work or helping create more of those kinds of men in society. Well, her way of "creating" better men in society involves yelling at men on the internet and calling them misogynists, but that is ironically a source of the misandry leading to the lack of good men.

Until women and society begin INVESTING in men as a group and stop yelling and declaring war on men at every opportunity they get, I find no reasonable basis for them to complain about the lack of good men. We are products of society as much as products of ourselves. And a field that is not watered will not grow any crops.

splunx · 2022-08-13T21:13:05+00:00

yes, we should all grow taller, become white, use steroids, and have unrivalled charisma while working a 9-5.

HazyMemory7 · 2022-08-14T00:42:29+00:00

I'm pretty sure men are pretty fed up with dating women too. What do most women bring to the table?

Would you want to date a modern day woman? One who is nearing 30, 100 lbs overweight bbw, and divorce you down the line and get paid alimony? Would you want to date a woman who's slept with 20+ guys? Who cries about a make believe gender wage gap but wants a man to pay for everything?

anjovis150 · 2022-08-13T21:12:34+00:00

If men are fed up with dating women...... Jeez try having a bit of nuance.

DerekMorganBAU · 2022-08-13T22:36:35+00:00

No sorry

I’m a liar, cheater, manipulator and it works wonders for me always have and always will.

To be successful as a man and get easy sex you have to adapt and do whatever it takes

Also women are liars cheaters manipulators too so….

Oh well

itmethrowaway12 · 2022-08-13T21:19:10+00:00

ok but men r fed up too and dropping out all together aswell soooooooo 1/10 post

ZealousidealAd7191 · 2022-08-14T00:16:38+00:00

If you haven’t dated at all why is your opinion on dating relevant?

But to partially answer your question, I have NO idea where the “lack of accountability” complaint comes from for men, because every time theres a problem men are expected to either fix it or change themselves. And if the reward continues to diminish and the risk continues to get higher and the effort continues to increase, men are going to be less and less willing to change and that’s more or less what we’re seeing now.

What reason do i have to “mature” (by a woman’s requirements) and take on more responsibility if I don’t stand to gain anything for my efforts, or the risk of losing what I’ve gained is uncomfortably high?

Spiritual_Age_4992 · 2022-08-14T02:35:58+00:00

I could LITERALLY say the same thing about women.

I'm fact every group of guys who's ever said the same thing about women & organized into a subreddit have been banned so if that's not a case for the gynocentric society I don't know what is.

FutureBannedAccount2 · 2022-08-14T05:03:08+00:00

Uh...no. I’m not gonna change just for a woman to like me especially not when they have ridiculous standards. They can literally go fuck themselves. I’ll find a woman who like me for me

govedototalno · 2022-08-14T05:09:35+00:00

No. I'd have to know what traits have convinced these women to give up on trying to find a partner. Are we talking about violent tendencies and aggression? These are horrible traits, I agree. That being said, the men who possess these traits aren't inclined to change. The men who don't possess these traits can't change the men who do possess them. The onus is on women to choose better partners. Women need to have filters in place that weed out abusive and/or violent men. Unfortunately, women seem to be attracted to certain traits (not specifically violence) that are more likely to be possessed by men who are prone to being violent. There are shy, passive men out there that would never hurt a fly, but the traits they have aren't (in general) appealing to women. That's a big part of the problem.

n8ivco1 · 2022-08-14T06:59:54+00:00

kinhk · 2022-08-14T14:54:15+00:00

Men have a lack of accountability? The irony 🤣🤣

Lars93 · 2022-08-14T14:55:51+00:00

The reality is simply that women hold all the power in dating, probably even in all of social media (talking about the dating scene only) so they can choose to be with whoever they want or be alone. That's just how it is now.

Talking about OLD, they can get away with car/mirror selfies, having only 1 picture, having 1-word bios, their hobbies are being on tiktok and instagram, make up, "big foodie and travel!" and they'll still have 100s of messages. Average men can't afford to have any of the above otherwise you're an uninteresting piece of shit of who needs therapy. Stop playing video games!

Social media and dating apps fucked everything up. Men, get obsessed with becoming better. That's the only advice I can offer. There's no solution to this.

ruboyuri · 2022-08-14T15:20:19+00:00

Oh, but change is hard and whining is easy

2022-08-14T19:00:46+00:00

Of course, women have vagina so they don't have to do anything. /s

Both men and women have different temperaments mostly driven by biology. It cannot be changed on the whims of women. Women want men to change? Stop rewarding the behaviour you don't want. Yes, that means STOP FUCKING and REPRODUCING with men that lack empathy, emotional maturity, accountability, and are aggressive or violent. But that's NOT going to happen because women are biologically wired to crave that stuff. If women want men that are more like women they're going to lose in every conceivable way.

Why the hell do women seem to think they're entitled to police behaviour and etiquette anyway? That's some stupid parental shit right there. That's how you train children not full grown adult men.

John Cleese put it best "Those that cannot control their emotions seek to control your behaviour."

Women are wired to nurture children. They want comfort and security so they have a safe place to raise their children. The slightest ripple in the water upsets women far too much. The same traits that they seem to dislike in men are the same traits that make men slay the dragon, bring home the bacon, and risk their lives to protect women and children. Seems to me that far too many modern women want to be able to adjust men's traits like a soundman on a mixing board. Tweak this here, turn this up, add more of this and less of that and they want to be able to do it in real time always making constant adjustments.

It's like they want a lapdog that, when called into action, turns into an attack dog and then returns to her lap moments later when the threat is over. Go out and fight the battle and then return home to bake cookies. It's weird because women seem to think that they have this control over themselves. But that's just the presentation they put out to the world. Some of them are down right animals when no one is looking.

Where are the peaceful, agreeable feminine women? You want to tame a man, BE THOSE THINGS. Be soft and gentle and a little quieter (less contentious) and you will attract more stable men and be able to detect which men are not that stable. And have some reasonable demands too, we can't be everything she wants and needs at every damn moment of the day and we can't read minds either. Women can't be those things either, we're all flawed.

Women created the way people behave. did women really think they could have sexual liberation for themselves but somehow the men they desire wouldn't also indulge? Did women really think that once they decided that they had their fill of 'fun' that men would just stop and line up to marry them and 'settle down'?

Things cannot be put back in the box. As long as there are women handing out sex like candy, what the fuck incentive is their for hot/top guys to stick with one? Women wanted a buffet, you got it, and we got it too. If women closed their legs for the next 50 years we might start seeing men adjust to the new program. Men want sex, women are the gatekeepers of sex. Withhold sex for a couple generations and men will 'get in line'. If women are horny, masturbate, just like men do when they need some relief and don't have access. If women keep their short term impulses under control this will trickle down to the men. But keep in mind, this will take time, more time than each living individual woman has.

A 27 year old woman can't just slam her legs shut and expect immediate results. Also, women need to reward men with some fucking authority commensurate with their responsibilities. Women seem to want men to be leaders but they won't let them lead. Women talk shit about 50/50 but want a leader? Make it make sense? And since when did women learn how to measure objectively? Give me a break. Women know what we want/expect from a woman. Yes, it's all that 'traditional' stuff. So where is it? Oh right, they don't like the responsibility part just the rights and fun stuff.

And change the friggin' family courts. Stop abusing claims of abuse. Understand that 'harassment' is intimidation and coercion, not some 'creepy guy' (translated: a guy you're not attracted too) that looked at you for longer than 4 seconds. Stop acting like there's r@pists and p3dos lurking around every corner. Women's anxiety is mostly self inflicted. If you're an anxious woman, maybe it's because you were impulsive and now you're an over 30, broke single mother with 3 kids from 2 different baby daddies that has to basically starve on the system of somehow work 40 hours a week on top of it all because you didn't consolidate on a reasonable man when you were at the peak of your beauty. Nah, ya squandered it, always thinking there'd be plenty of 'good men' waiting for you after you've had your fun.

Hell, I'm not saying I did things 'right' but at least I accept some fucking culpability for it. When I was in highschool I wanted nothing more than to 'settle down' and marry and have the 'traditional' life, but women weren't ready for that yet. Now in my 40's and women from 'back in the day' seem to find me on facebook. They play coy but I know what they're doing. They fucked up and now they wanna have a look-see to see if I might be interested (because they still want me to chase them). And I play along a bit. And they put in like zero fucking effort. It's like they thought they could just pop in and I'd just fall all over myself trying to get her. Still just as entitled as ever.

No wonder, they never had to put in any real effort. Now they either don't know how or are unwilling because of their entitlement. It's like putting in some effort feels like "who the fuck does he think he is?" It's offensive to them that I don't chase them. It's like that song from Cheap Trick "I want you to want me." And they think I don't know what they're up to. It's so messed up. Is the problem "you" or "men"? In that case, it's probably you to some degree.

It's simple. Stop encouraging women to be empowered 'sluts'. Bring back slut shaming. Shun single mothers. Bring back some feminine modesty. Cancel artists like Meghan The Horse. Make a decision and stick to it. Cleave to your husband even if it means you lose friends. Stop listening to other women for crying out loud. Make a sammich. Initiate sex or at least be excitedly available when he wants some. Learn how to give a massage. You'll see if he's reciprocal in short order. If he's not, leave, don't think he's going to change. Play with his balls and learn to give a great handjob so that you have another way to satisfy him in the case you don't wanna get messy with sex. And get a wet rag and clean him up after. My wife did that and it was so awesome in so many ways. Find out what a man wants/needs and GIVE it to him instead of withholding it and using it as currency reward/punishment.

lifesuckswannadie · 2022-08-15T10:59:06+00:00

No, because are only fed up for ridiculous reasons. They are fed up because they all want the same guys and most of them end up getting used and ghosted.

Most men are struggling and not getting any results because we aren't wanted. Absolutely nothing we can do, it's women that must change

throwaway02593 · 2022-08-14T03:04:05+00:00

I see a lot of women either losing interest or quitting dating altogether because they have continually bad experiences with men

If you smell shit everywhere you go, maybe it's time to check your own shoe.

hari_hbp · 2022-08-14T04:03:07+00:00

Nope. Women are fed up with dating men they are attracted to. What women are attracted to is extremely personal and as such, the majority of men have no say in it. There are good men out there who will be attractive to women, finding them is the only issue.

2022-08-14T06:03:27+00:00

Women also have lack of empathy, emotional immaturity, and lack of accountability, aggression and violence. Lack of self awareness is a problem for everyone.

mavdoru · 2022-08-14T06:18:55+00:00

Besides r4pe, it's women who chose which men will have sex.

If a lot of "bad men" are having sex/relationships, it's mostly because women have decided it.

That's why we say it's a "certain type of men", because it's the specifically type of men women chooses, not the type of men (majority of them) that women don't even consider its existence.

Zcuzz · 2022-08-14T08:00:01+00:00

Nope.

Oh yeah, let me just add a couple inches of height so I can actually show up on a dating app filter so I can get with some insufferable twat.

Fuck all these average ass narcissistic cunts thinking they're hot shit. 99% of single women these days have repulsive personalities. Shit man, these stupid bitches rock pants my grandma would wear in her 50's while they're 20.

DrinkItInMan11 · 2022-08-14T01:00:27+00:00

No it's on the women to change their behaviour. If you're struggling in dating it's your fault.

TryLambda · 2022-08-14T04:19:08+00:00

99% of men are invisible to women….add in hypergamy, dual mating strategies, monkey branching…and modern social media narcissism….women need to think about that

IMendicantBias · 2022-08-14T07:02:00+00:00

Man it is beyond old women taking zero accountability in their own faults. Yall deliberately chose walking red flags or make obviously poor choices yet cannot ever admit maybe there is something wrong with you and the decisions you make.

ParfaitMore5258 · 2022-08-13T23:18:32+00:00

They sound like femcels. Go outside touch grass and talk to men.

Wait that is what women says when a man has any complaints

caption291 · 2022-08-14T05:02:39+00:00

Well, if we put fairness aside, maybe it is on men to change, but that change might not come in the form of doing what women want, quite the opposite really.

If you don't want men to just do what is optimal for them with no regards for the consequences it might have on women, then fairness has to be part of the discussion.

KayRay1994 · 2022-08-14T06:16:03+00:00

everyone needs to change in some form, and its important for both men and women to at least hear out what the other has to say (within reasonable limits ofc)

2022-08-14T06:29:26+00:00

Not only is it on men to change themselves, but it's on men to change the whole of society for the better. Just as it's been for all of human history.

Modern man and modern women are both sick creatures, largely incapable of creating lasting relationships and harmonious families, especially in the west we are a deeply fractured civilization.

Substantial_Video560 · 2022-08-14T11:18:07+00:00

I gave up looking for a relationship a long time ago. If I ever need a sexual fix I'll see an escort. Works for me.

I just focus on myself, work and hobbies and interests. Been learning to make peace with being alone and finding acceptance which isn't too difficult being an anti-social introvert! 😅

I would probably consider myself an MGTOW nowadays. It's rather freeing and refreshing being free of social constructs such as relationships, marriage and kids.

yuckyuck13 · 2022-08-14T12:36:20+00:00

I wouldn't say all men but most have little experience, taking bad advice and often times don't a role model to learn from. The rise of the pick up artist scene more often than not gives bad advice that typically only for getting sex. But there is a rising trend of legit dating coaches who encourage self improvement and learning skills that make a good partner.

No-Koala5505 · 2022-08-14T17:55:19+00:00

My comment is based on living a secular/atheist life in the United States. This might not apply to say evangelical Christians or Saudi Arabians.

I think that these days it’s easier to quit dating or give up on marriage altogether. Marriage and child birth have great potential risks for both genders. So the pro’s have to outweigh the con’s by a very great margin. On the other hand, the societal pressure to marry is historically low. People on Reddit seem to think that women are bullied into marriage and child birth. I am a woman in my thirties and I have never really experienced pressure to marry. Maybe I am just lucky. So if I can fend for myself, keep the lights on etc. by myself and nobody really cares if I am married or have kids why would I lower my standards? What am I going to gain? The same, I guess applies to men.

Historical-System972 · 2022-08-15T00:13:23+00:00

Women aren't obligated to date men if they don't want to - men shouldn't be expected to finance women's lifestyle in return for nothing either.

Returnofthemack3 · 2022-08-15T00:55:34+00:00

Kind of. The problem is that women aren't offering a whole lot and they over estimate their worth. This is further complicated by the unreasonable standards many women have

LMM-GT02 · 2022-08-15T06:19:53+00:00

Money rules the world but pussy rules the nation, and with great power comes great responsibility.

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-08-15T13:21:32+00:00

I mean are the women happy not dating?

IhaveLostCount · 2022-08-15T17:09:58+00:00

Doesn’t this give way for circular reasoning? If it’s someone else’s job to change because someone else says so and is “fed up”, what happens when the target group is fed up with the other side being fed up? Who is it on then? You see where this goes right? Technically you already do, because it’ll bring you right back here, since that’s what circular reasoning does.

Marshalchuck · 2022-08-15T19:57:40+00:00

They wanna date Chad. They want the 8 or above. Then are surprised when he moves along. Then she talks to the guys in her "friendzone" until the next Chad comes along. It's the friend zone she should look at, but it's "boring" and she "deserves better."

Saitama1993 · 2022-08-15T20:25:53+00:00

Yes, men should bring the moon and stars to his beloved qween. He should raise all her babies from different daddies and provide no questions asked. Wonderful times we're living.

poppy_blu · 2022-08-13T22:09:30+00:00

You’re young. It will get better.

Plopolok · 2022-08-13T23:25:18+00:00

Absolutely. A lot of guys like to complain about unfairness online but the truth of the matter is that hetero coupling has been deeply unfair and even a net negative for women for basically all of recorded history. Under patriarchy, women have been oppressed, have had to compromise, had to sacrifice, and have to suffer in their relationships with men. It's a lot better now than it has perhaps ever been but it is still far from perfect.

Blaphrodite · 2022-08-13T23:11:31+00:00

Men should date men and women should date women.

Problem solved.

InfamousBake1859 · 2022-08-14T01:25:10+00:00

Funny thing… people used to use the phrase “you’ll die alone with cats” to threaten women but it was just their own projection. Women usually die alone since we usually outlive our male partners, so it’s something we expect. Now guys realize they might die alone and are freaking out

ProfessorFelix0812 · 2022-08-14T01:49:37+00:00

This sub is full of socially awkward men who couldn’t get a date if they walked into a women’s prison with a fistful of pardons. Of course, then they blame the chicks for thinking they’re “creepy” instead of accepting the fact they actually are “creepy”, because they don’t have the foggiest fucking idea how to be normal.

There. I said it.

sarkington · 2022-08-13T21:21:30+00:00

People just need to say no

No

No, I don’t need to

No, I don’t want that

“But love/my penis/the children!”

Warm_Gur8832 · 2022-08-14T16:20:25+00:00

Why would the men want to change if the bar is that low?

TankieSappho · 2022-08-14T01:35:56+00:00

It is 100% on men. If they cannot do the bare fucking minimum to change in order to meet the extremely low bar that is set for them then that is on them.

I mean really the bar is so pathetically low if you can’t meet It I don’t know what the fuck to tell you that will help.

AelfredRex · 2022-08-14T11:48:05+00:00

What? The little boys have to grow up and take responsibility for their behaviour? Nah, way easier to hop on YouTube or Reddit and get their narcissism validated by other narcissists.

pinktuliplover · 2022-08-13T23:44:55+00:00

There really needs to be a change on both sides, but I honestly don’t know if we’ll get it.

But like you said, a lot of men lack empathy and are very emotionally immature. And violence is obviously an absolute no.

I think men can step up in these areas (and others) but the big issue is that their is no direct incentive. We have to remember that guys are more logical. Most of them need an actual goal.

If a man has a woman he really wants, he will make adjustments to get her. She is the goal.

But will most men make internal changes initially in order for a chance to get a quality women? Less likely. Because the thought of a better woman is an abstract goal, while an actual woman that he already wants is a tangible goal.

I honestly love seeing men encourage other men to “focus on yourself bro” as long as it’s positive. Get in shape, get your money up, etc. These will attract more women.

But I don’t see too many men saying “work on your emotional maturity bro.” Some do, but not as much as the latter.

I think what it takes for most men to make internal change is either a significant life change/event or finding a woman worth changing for.

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Caring_Cactus · 2022-08-13T22:06:21+00:00

If that's their choice and they've decided that, that's on them.

Plopolok · 2022-08-13T23:18:27+00:00

Nature's way is that men are diverse and women choose. You can't remove traits from the whole population of men, there will always be all kinds of things in there. The only thing you can do is to put men with the traits you want in your life, and put their genes in the next generation. Regarding the main issues to you, it doesn't seem that women are doing this.

2022-08-14T01:37:00+00:00

That is dr.lobsters whole trip. Be hero bucko Get over yourself. But roughly speaking...the feminine dragon of chaos will CUT you down if you put one foot outta line

NeighborhoodVeteran · 2022-08-14T11:21:10+00:00

I don't think the things you listed preclude women from dating men, but I do agree that there are differing levels of the traits in everyone, but on the surface they do appear to apply mostly to men. But that's only if you look at it from the outside and don't actually get to to know anyone. If "women are fed up with dating men" it's because they are dating the wrong kinds of people, or maybe they are trying to be too controlling in the relationship. This could also be applied to "men who are fed up with dating women" imo.

2022-08-14T18:09:58+00:00

Women aren't fed up with dating. The idea that women are "going their own way" does not seem to be supported by statistical data.

CocoBabeNYC · 2022-08-15T12:39:05+00:00

As a girl friend of mine recently put it, there are two types of guys out there. The nerds who are afraid of their own shadows and the guys who are not afraid and know they are in demand so they get to act like assholes. These are the "choices" most women have. If I were to take an educated guess, 99.99% if the male audience of this sub falls into the first category.

throwaway316stunner · 2022-08-15T19:32:08+00:00

No. For all we know, it’s the woman in question that’s the issue.

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DankerLordoftheMemes · 2022-08-20T23:02:40+00:00

This boils down to an utter lack of empathy. As women owe men absolutely nothing, men owe women absolutely nothing.

If women are fed up with dating men, isn't it on the men to change?

Comments

Men Going Their Own Way

Title	If women are fed up with dating men, isn't it on the men to change?
Author	thatsnotmymain1
Upvotes	61
Comments	375
Date	August 13, 2022 9:08 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/wnoofu/if_women_are_fed_up_with_dating_men_isnt_it_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-women-are-fed-up-with-dating-men-isnt-it-on-the.1127418 https://theredarchive.com/post/1127418