Google Manager to Employees: "Next time you get invited to speak at a conference, especially if you’re a white male – ask the organizer to confirm you’re the only white male on the panel / in the speaker lineup. If not, say you are honored, but must decline, and give the reason."

You don’t need to do research on the NBA. Blacks are massively over represented in the NBA. I used that as an example because it’s so obvious. The point is that just because some groups are under or over represented in some field that doesn’t mean discrimination is the cause.

I can think of few reasons off the top my head that would be good reasons why there would be less women on executive boards. Women work less hours on average than men. Women have more gaps in employment on average than men. Women are willing to commute shorter distances than men on average. Women on average value status and wealth more highly than men when selecting mates, so men have more pressure on them to acquire status and wealth than women do. Women also use more vacation time than men and value work/life balance more than men.

Executives at large companies work tons of hours and have to put their work before their home life in the vast majority of cases.

Basically what all this adds up to is less women are trying to reach top positions than men, because men and women have different preferences on average. Given your previous comments, it’s likely that you don’t believe that men and women have different preferences and dispositions on average, but they do, and there is an ever growing mountain of evidence that shows this. The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker is a good book that covers this topic and it cites a bunch of research.

I don’t know anything about the specific issue of there being less blacks in tech than there should be based on the number of black CS grads, maybe discrimination is a factor, but merely pointing out that there is gap in the numbers isn’t evidence of discrimination.

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but the tech industry didn't start it. Law firms did.

Because that's why Google fired James Damore?? That certainly wasn't some law firm.

This is just really a poor excuse for horrible and illegal behavior. It's the same argument that the alt-left makes to justify their violence. "If they just wouldn't say certain things, there'd be no violence"

Backwards is exactly right.

Edit: FTFA (emph. mine);

Not only did Google practice this discrimination itself, but it also attempted to use its power in the industry to coerce other companies into doing the same, with one manager instructing his employees as follows: Next time you get invited to speak at a conference, especially if you’re a white male – ask the organizer to confirm you’re the only white male on the panel / in the speaker lineup. If not, say you are honored, but must decline, and give the reason. And because you are at Google, guess what – they’re going to change the panel for you.

The cesspool that is Silicon Valley may have not started it, but they're certainly the ones propagating it everywhere. Google must be an awful hostile place to work at.

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[–]HereForTheDough-67 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

gender and race/appearance determine the value of your opinion

Literally says that nowhere. These aren't random people being pulled off the street and then assigned values for their random opinions based on race or gender. They are ALL professionals working in the same field. This is an attempt by Google, apparently, to foster a sense of diversity and to have their decision making driven from multiple social perspectives.

But go ahead, if Google is wrong, and simply create a better company that is more fair. If forcing diversity on the employees at Google is somehow wrong from a business perspective, then out compete them with your GI Joe team.

This is really more like

gender and race/appearance no longer help determine the value of your opinion in my favor

Edit: Sweet Irony, Batman. This place is a LITERAL circlejerk. None of you super smart guys has an argument? Just hit the 'cry like a girl' button?

[–]firelock_ny24 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SilentKiller9624 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well the thing is, Google isn't really forcing diversity in this case. They are trying to appear diverse... And at the cost of people's voices.

What they're doing is like skewing data. I.e. if you have a bag of candy and want to decide whether you're going to like it, the best way to do so is pick a few at random and see how you like those. If you only try the blue ones, you would have no basis on which to judge the green ones. If you only tried one green, the data size would be too small to guess how all the other green candies are. By picking at random, the representation they have in your "test" is proportional to their abundance in the bag.

Equivalently, if there are more white males in your company, they obviously span more positions. So by only having 1 white male speak, you're under representing the majority of the positions offered at the company.

The distribution of your data should match that of reality.

If Google wanted a more diverse team, they should should be looking at why the pool of developers seeking employment isn't more diverse, and look at how to fix that. My guess is that "minorities" aren't as motivated (by their environment) towards the technical field at a young age.

[–]HereForTheDough-29 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't see how any of that addresses what I said, even remotely.

Got it. You don't like Google's internal practices. Don't take their job offer when they hit you up (lol).

What they're doing is like skewing data

Like what? Give me an example of inaccurate data they have presented as factual.

So by only having 1 white male speak, you're under representing the majority of the positions offered at the company.

One, I disagree. Two, so what? Start your own company and beat them at their own game if they are fucking up in some meaningful way. They've only been around like 20 years. Give your business to other companies. Are you really demanding that they run their business a certain way? Are white men now going to cry for affirmative action?

If Google wanted a more diverse team, they should should be looking at why the pool of developers seeking employment isn't more diverse, and look at how to fix that. My guess is that "minorities" aren't as motivated (by their environment) towards the technical field at a young age.

Until you actually do something, I'll assume that Google knows much more about what they are doing and how they want to do it than you do.

[–]morerokk11 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GreatBayTemple-1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Our company only hires blonde white men. Don't like it? Feel free to apply elsewhere!"

See how retarded that is?

Well it isn't retarded. In television I stray away from shows that don't represent me. That follow the same rubric. Feel like white survival should be a movie category.

How many white super heroes are there before I'm in the theatre thinking. "White guy has the answer, white guy saves the day. Every minority died, but the white guy and his love interest lived. I didn't expect that ending!"

It's not salt as much as it's people of different races coming to the conclusion that we're all the same and we're in this together and it should better reflect that at the top to encourage cooperation.

I think it's crazy how for the past 100 years and more white dudes and white women had been completely represented, damn there over represented. Google is taking action to think farther on the future as oppose to the current to get ahead of a society that is very much becoming more integrated.

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Give me an example of inaccurate data they have presented as factual.

Anything presented by a panel where the speakers do not represent the company, is an inaccurate representation of the company.

Start your own company and beat them at their own game if they are fucking up in some meaningful way

Just because something is wrong, doesn't mean it's bad for business. For example, child labor is wrong, but good for business.

Yes, pandering to certain groups may be beneficial for their business at the moment. Good for them. One day, decades into the future, big companies will pander to other groups.

Sure, Google knows more than me. However, you'd prefer that I remain silent about my concerns? Hell, I'm sure your life would be much easier if everyone that didn't agree with you remained silent. Poor you.

Are you really demanding that they run their business a certain way?

No, nobody is demanding anything, we are just voicing our concerns. Except for the person at Google demanding that white people shut up... They are, indeed, making demands.

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But go ahead, if Google is wrong, and simply create a better company that is more fair [...] out compete them with your GI Joe team.

People are upset by the gross violation of principles that they value--by an established industry giant, no less--and they aren't actually interested in personally trying to out-compete said company. But I'm guessing you already knew that, so I have to wonder what the hell your point was.

This is really more like

gender and race/appearance no longer help determine the value of your opinion in my favor

Nobody is complaining about losing unearned privileges or whatever bullshit buzzphrase du jour. They're complaining about an explicitly racist and sexist policy that holds back individuals for no reason other than being born into the "wrong" demographic. And I suppose they're irked by the well-meaning idiots who defend bigotry in the name of "diversity."

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Can we also address the sheer arrogance that goes along with this discrimination?

Next time you get invited to speak at a conference, especially if you’re a white male – ask the organizer to confirm you’re the only white male on the panel / in the speaker lineup. If not, say you are honored, but must decline, and give the reason. And because you are at Google, guess what – they’re going to change the panel for you. You’ll feel bad about inconveniencing them. But not that bad. When the cheesy white male executive is in the “green room” and glaring at you because he was bounced for the panel in favor of a woman on his team, you’ll feel pretty damn smug. Or you won’t: you’ll feel bad that you might have put her in a tough spot, and you’ll go above and beyond to make good with the schmucky senior dude (Complaint 42).

WTF Google?! I mean, I get you're the biggest company in the world, but there's no need to be a dick about it?

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Maybe you didn’t read the article. Here is what they were riffing off. The premise is not much different. White males must ensure they are the only one to speak from their gender/sex combo, and make demands or decline speaking if it isn’t the case.

Quote from google manager:

“Next time you get invited to speak at a conference, especially if you’re a white male – ask the organizer to confirm you’re the only white male on the panel / in the speaker lineup. If not, say you are honored, but must decline, and give the reason. And because you are at Google, guess what – they’re going to change the panel for you. You’ll feel bad about inconveniencing them. But not that bad. When the cheesy white male executive is in the “green room” and glaring at you because he was bounced for the panel in favor of a woman on his team, you’ll feel pretty damn smug. Or you won’t: you’ll feel bad that you might have put her in a tough spot, and you’ll go above and beyond to make good with the schmucky senior dude (Complaint 42).”

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The premise of affirmative action is this:

That all things being equal, discrimination still exists. Two people with identical resumes, equal people skills, and equal everything, where the only difference is skin color and gender - those external factors play a role.

So if you accept that premise, that unconscious bias exists (and proponents of AA do have convincing research on this), then the natural question is this: What tools do we have available to combat this persistent bug in our system?

It doesn't really work to come after individual companies when we see that some 100+ staff are all white males because then you get these horribly awkward moments like this. Obviously, every company on earth will simply say "we don't discriminate" and to be fair, they don't... at least not consciously. So you can't even really pin it on them, and if you could, would they really deserve it?

So the idea is this... AA says that we can look at the statistics, and empowered by mathematics, make more progressive decisions. Given your companies location, your employee's skillset, the available workers in your region, all things considered, IF unconscious bias were not a factor, then how would your company look demographically?

Obviously AA is difficult to design and enforce, so it's usually an opt-in program. If your company wants to claim that they are an equal opportunity employer, one such piece of evidence they can put forward, is compliance with some affirmative action type of remedy.

So that's why affirmative action is a merit based system.

It was created by John F. Kennedy so that blacks and minorities could gain access to promotions, pay increases, admission to schools, and financial aid. Basically, it was saying "hey, we are unconsciously (or silently) still enslaving people - so let's force the bigoted assholes to change their behaviors". At that time it was not optional, and could very well be why he was assassinated. It was probably his #1 least popular policy in Texas.

So I still believe in the principle that race, creed, gender etc. shouldn't play a part in the hiring process, and I can't think of a more sincere solution than letting statistics enforce moral intentions. I think at the end of the day we are all flawed creatures, and math is the only tool we have which is truly blind to bias.

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I just don't believe a line up of speakers at a professional event should be intentionally made to be diverse if it jeopardizes the quality of the program. Sure, if there are 100 qualified speakers then look for diversity when picking the lineup, but quality of content is what should be considered first.

Whoever is in charge needs to look at qualification regardless of gender/race and pick out who needs to be there and who doesn't, it's that simple. Right now, this is how it's done and once they send out invitations (to the most qualified people) then it's totally unprofessional and unethical for google to deliberately censor someones opinion. Just because they're a white man doesn't make this okay. It's ridiculous that Google does this on the off chance that an educational conference has anything in mind but sharing the knowledge of the best and brightest in a field.

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I agree that REQUIRING "false" diversity isn't helpful, at all. I do think that requiring someone to at least TRY to go outside their existing networks is useful. Sometimes finding us isn't the easiest thing, but when I had a guy once ask me - truly befuddled- about how he could possibly find a woman to speak in a panel that I would have been perfect for, I roll my eyes. We're so invisible when guys are thinking of who to ask, and that "invisibility" is a really subtle thing.

I've put panels together, and it is honestly hard to reach outside those you already know to build more diversity. It can be done, but requires more effort. That effort is worth trying. Forcing a quota isn't an acceptable solution. Having to prove how you TRIED to make it more balanced is. And maybe going that process will help everyone trying to do these things.

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That's strike two on missing the point. I'll spell it out for you.

I didn't miss the point, I just made a different one.

When your life is less than spectacular and your told to just get over it because your skin color awards you special privilage and then to top that off your blamed for all other racial problems as a contributor just because you exist and your constantly excluded both emotionally and physically from the discussion because of your skin color you tend to take it out on the people that keep instigating you.

You literally just described the life of a black man. It goes both ways.

Now losing your job or not setting yourself properly in life or just having a shitty life? Yeah that's just life.

True.

Having groups of people discriminate against you racially and constantly instigating you outside of your influence? No, that's some racist shit others shouldn't have to deal with.

As a black man, I agree. The point that I was making is that the OP problems weren't caused by non-whites. People making white men out to be a problem should be ignored. Google is stupid for it and it will be the cause of their demise.

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Everyone likes this idea that white men are "fighting back" - that they are sick and tired of all this and that's why we have Nazis marching again. This isn't really what's happening. It makes sense on the surface, but it only explains the feelings of relative moderates who actually aren't marching yet.

For the Nazis, the fervent alt-right, they have been enabled by the identity politics people. This has crept into the left as some sort of method to reach understanding but it has made the most vocal, the most hurt, raise to the top.

Except those leaders are actually very authoritarian. We see this, we mock this even in the current thread because it's shutting down voices and opportunities in this case.

This enables people like the Nazis because it's signaled that this is not only okay, but it is the way things are to be. Not the content of your character, not your message, those things aren't important. It's okay to brand people and divide them. The next natural step for both sides is that it's okay to harm those that aren't "us". Then if they die, it's good for the cause. Then it's good to kill them, we should come up with easier ways to wipe them off the earth. Then Americans are storming the beaches of Normandy to save the world from such a menace... So who will save us?

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[–]SunRaSquarePants-1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think this is a pretty ham-fisted analysis.

It's associated with the hate movements because that's currently the outlet they have to have a voice

If your movement gives voice to hate, it is a hate movement.

but I think it will grow and leave the hate groups behind as it matures.

By what mechanism??? The alt-right is founded on identity politics. The phrase was coined by self-identified white nationalist Richard Spencer.

It's going to be even harder for a movement that also has a racial component. These things take time. We'll see how it plays out.

Wow, you've missed the fucking point. No movement can have a race component without being about identity politics. Identity politics is actually what we are here to disavow. Identity politics is a shit game. Go watch some Jordan Peterson videos.

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[–]SunRaSquarePants0 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I can't tell if you're missing the point repeatedly on purpose, or because you don't have a choice. You're claiming I claimed you claimed things I never claimed. I can't keep track of your meta-misunderstandings.

but the other two literally have it in their name and that has been indicative of their missions since they were formed.

You can have any group of people seeking equal rights for individuals. So, no it doesn't necessarily follow that people are seeking special rights or special status just because they've formed a group identity. Saying that identity politics is in their name is the same as saying MRAs have identity politics in their name. They don't. They have identity in their name.

You only get identity politics when people start leveraging their identity to gain special rights and status. Special rights are not equal rights. Many groups formed around identity in search of equality of opportunity. Equality of opportunity is not the same as equality of outcome. When groups start seeking special status culturally, or so that the government intervenes and creates equality of outcome, then it becomes identity politics. This is what the alt-right is, it's what it formed as, it will not become this thing, nor will it outgrow it. It is a stupid movement, and it will either dissolve entirely, or continue to be stupid. It is stupid to identify groups by immutable traits and then ascribe perceived traits of individuals in the the group to all its members... it's like drawing the conclusion that because most nascar driver are white that all white people are race car drivers.

[–]Hannyu1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're purposefully being pedantic now, and incorrect while doing so. MRA does have identity politics. It is a movement seeking political change for a certain group of individuals. Being identity political alone isn't enough to make a movement bad. The manner in which they conduct themselves in that pursuit is what makes them bad. I've never said the alt-right is currently a good movement. I said it's a growing one and that isn't surprising. I've said what I think it has the potential to be. I never said it is good in it's current format.

I disagree that for it to be identity politics it must be seeking equal outcome not equal opportunity. That is imposing values on it to fit your desired view, much like the arguments feminist make that power + priviledge is opression. Absolute garbage. The words identity and politics have meanings, just as the word opression does. This ideology is one commonly fought against in this sub.

Also your last analogy about nascar drivers is suh a false comparison that it's nonsensical.

[–]SunRaSquarePants1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

MRA does have identity politics. It is a movement seeking political change for a certain group of individuals.

That is not the definition of identity politics.

I've said what I think it has the potential to be.

And this is exactly what I think you're dead wrong about, and I've been trying to tell you exactly why I think you're wrong.

I disagree that for it to be identity politics it must be seeking equal outcome not equal opportunity.

This is bone-headed. How can you think that a group who wants the individuals in their group to have the exact same rights as all other individuals (equality of opportunity), is the same as a group that advocates that its members are given special consideration for their group membership rather than their individual actions (equality of outcome). Do you see how these are inherently different? That specific inherent difference IS identity politics.

That is imposing values on it to fit your desired view, much like the arguments feminist make that power + priviledge is opression.

No it's not. It's actually nothing like that at all. What you are talking about is a postmodern interpretation, which dictates that any interaction has an infinite number of possible interpretations. What the postmodern dictate lacks is the ability to judge which interpretations will result in expected outcomes, and which interpretations won't. In other words, it has no ability to judge an interpretation of reality by the accuracy of its predictions based upon that interpretation.

Also your last analogy about nascar drivers is suh a false comparison that it's nonsensical.

How on earth is that a false comparison? It may be nonsensical, but that's certainly because identity politics, the thing to which the analogy is being made, is in itself, nonsensical.

[–]Hannyu1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SunRaSquarePants1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're awfully arrogant and sure of your position for how tenuous that position is.

I'm willing to bet that the reason you didn't actually include these dictionary definitions is that they don't actually undermine my points. You seem perfectly willing to voice your tepid musings without any rigorous investigation, and then you have trouble backing up what your saying in any way that makes cohesive sense. It's fine to go to the mat to explain the validity of your interpretations, but you've sent me about 4 or 5 messages now wherein you just repeat your claims without being able to unpack any of them, or even hint in the direction of why or even how your claims are supported by a reasoned train of thought. And judging by the content of your responses, it's pretty evident you aren't even fully comprehending what I'm saying.

It's completely disingenuous to throw up your hands in mock frustration as if you somehow tried to engage in any meaningful way in backing up your claims.

[–]Hannyu1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/identity

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics

I didn't post them because the dictionary is easy to find.

I've sent you messages saying READ THE OTHER MESSAGES IN THE THREAD WHERE THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN DONE. Jesus fucking christ. It was one of the first replies I had, that I had already explained in the thread my answers to the questions you were asking.

I don't owe it to you to repeat myself, defend myself, or explain myself. That doesn't make comprehension a problem. I comprehend exactly what you're saying. I'm saying you're wrong. Disagreement is not the same as a lack of comprehension.

It's not mock frustration. You've come in, tried to twist meanings to fit your view bias, and then when I said that's not how words work you started saying I was accusing you of accusing me, not defending myself (as if I owe it to random dude on the internet to defend myself?), and quoting things I say and ignoring the context to pick a fight or accuse me of saying things I haven't said. Nothing about that leads to mock frustration. It leads to wasting my time on someone who doesn't want to discuss, you just came here to try to pick a fight and spread your agenda.

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I mean some alt-righters have been active racists/sexists/homophobes their entire lives, and just hopped on the Trump train when the opportunity arose. Although I do agree with you in that many (white) male voters were afraid of the hateful "feminist" culture and how that would advance without any real regulation or opposition under a Clinton government, which was the unfortunate nature of this election, both candidates were so strongly disliked across the country that it became more about "which candidate will leave less of a mess?" than "who will be the better president?"

The important thing though is that we don't condone the alt-right, and we must make it extremely clear that the men's rights community is not part of the alt-right. I like r/mensrights because for the most part you guys are about the facts, keeping people informed, and progression for men, NOT regression for women. Of what I've seen of the alt-right, they actively deny facts and care very little for women or men who aren't white.

Not that i interpreted your post as pro-alt-right, but i just wanted to reiterate that these people aren't our allies just because they hate feminists. I don't even hate them, I would even consider myself to be a feminist in that I fully understand how women are oppressed in our society, especially in developing nations. I don't have to agree with every feminist on earth to advocate for safe and happy lives for women. It's not a "pick a side" situation. Women around the world suffer, and so do Men. Usually in vastly different ways, but they both need help, and one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other.

The alt-right would directly go against what we're trying to accomplish, so they are not our allies. They don't care about facts. They don't listen, process, and adapt their mentality based on new information. They're often extremely racist to the point that they really don't care what happens to you if you're a man living outside of their country, or a minority living IN their country. They loathe women and don't want gender equality, they want subservient women who do what they're told and don't talk back. They actively oppose the homosexual community, which means denying rights to millions of people (many of whom are men), despite this group already being so heavily persecuted on the world stage. They actively support irresponsible warmongering, causing thousands of brave soldiers from both sides (again, unfortunately, mostly male) to die for reasons that they don't fully understand, then after they're discharged from their service they are neglected the help they need and very often become homeless, despite the alt-right claiming they adore our veterans, they will not demand for better treatment for them because it would mean more taxes. They support tax cuts that allow billionaires to profit even more off the hard and often unsafe work of millions of (mostly) men around the world, rather then challenge these billionaires to take a smaller salary and invest some of their massive wealth into happier lives and better working conditions for these men. They are not about equality, peace, or fair treatment for men, as you can see they actually don't really care about men at all. They're goals are selfish ones, they aim for prosperity for their close friends and family, and the rest of us can go to hell. I say this without a sliver of sarcasm or exaggeration when i say i have never seen a a popular political movement so closely resemble the rise of the Nazi Party. Not saying that the Republicans/conservatives are the Nazis in this situation, but a large nationalist politcal base that supports deportations of the nations unwanted is something we already tried and it didn't work out so well.

Tldr: Even if they're agreeing with you, don't condone the alt-right. They (usually) don't care about men, or women, or anyone but themselves and we don't need them as allies. Our movement may be small and quiet, but at least we can play by our own rules here.

[–]Hannyu 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of the alt-right, that seems very much like an assessment made by liberal media, not one grounded in reality. You can't associate alt-right purely with republicans. A lot of people would consider me alt-right because of my social views(ie tired of being demonized for being a white male), yet I don't share repliblican views on many other issues (honestly don't care one way or the other about gay issues- I'm fine with equal treatment, not special treatment though which is what the left seems to advocate for them. I'm not republican economically, and no one I know republican, alt right, etc want servant women who stay at home barefoot being baby factories. That's some leftist/feminist propoganda shit.)

It does contain some factions like that as far as the racim goes, as it not a fully independent movement yet, but I think as it grows it will separate from the hate movements like the kkk and neo nazis, like how the BLM movement is separate from something like the Black Panthers or NAACP for example.

I'm not saying it will grow into a perfect movement by any means, but I believe it will improve.

However it will always have the racial component. White people are being made the source of evil in western society, which means that movement will have backlash against not only anti-male issues but anti-white issues as well. That means they will probably have issues with illegal immigration, and will lean more nationalist and isolationist. And that's okay. They just need to evolve into doing it in a healthy way, separate from the hate movements. The problem is, no matter how much the movement matures, media and left wing agenda will always try to throw the racist/sexist label on them. You have to be vigilant in separating truth from what the media tells you, which I assume you try to be, or you never would have made it to the MRM.

[–]Troflmao 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I can agree with you to a degree. And I can also see my bias as a relatively left-leaning individual.

I'm with you 100% for the "attack on whites", i am seeing a trend in the media to always take the side of whoever isn't white/male and present the facts in a deceiving and manipulative way, or withhold the facts that don't support their agenda. It's unfortunate and anyone who speaks up against it is instantly labeled a bigot.

However in your original post you implied it was the liberal media's aggresiveness that caused the white men in our country to vote for Trump in protest, which i believe to be true for many of his voters, I still feel like a dangerous culture of bigoted hatred is bred (and even worse, encouraged) in the alt-right. I think Trumps political rise has made the behaviour of racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia more popular and tolerated, at least within certain social circles. I think to say "the sjws MADE us do it" is a bit of a cop out for Trump supporters. There were many that were salivating at the opportunity of the socially acceptable bigotry that was tolerated by their president. I mean xenophobia was a MAJOR platform on Donnies campaign, they knew who they were voting for.

And that's my issue. The propogation of hate. It does, however, frustrate me that the other side of the debate isnt subject to the same criticism for propogating hate. We see rampant misandry tolerated whereas men entirely lose their social standing (and often more) just for saying something they didn't even realize was offensive towards women (some cases it was just the woman DECIDING it's offensive). We see white men constantly blamed for the evils of the world even though the black and middle-eastern communities have a far worse record for cultural sexism, racism, and homophobia. Despite this the sjws hypocritically side with men who gay-bash and abuse women just because they are minorities and therefore are immune to criticism. The double standard really really bothers me, especially as a queer man who most people assume is straight. People make the assumption that i have everything i need and I'm asking for too much if i ask for anything. It really sucks that we see such bigotry from both sides of the debate. I've been telling myself for a long time "don't make assumptions about people based on how they look". That's all it takes to not be a bigot, and yet so many people can't figure it out.

[–]Hannyu 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well you provide me with a good example here - calling them xenophobes. Some on the most extreme end of the scale may be truly xenophobic, but the vast majority are tired of being called racist and bigot because they want to enforce our immigration laws. We already fight being underpaid, and it's an even bigger fight when they can hire illgals under the table for a fraction of the price. This is a real issue in a lot of southern states close to the border. It may seem like an asinine overexaggeration to someone from say New York or Kansas or the Carolinas, but it's not for them. Many of them wouldn't care if they stay if they're working, paying taxes, and obeying our laws. They do care about businesses getting away with hiring 3 of them for the price they'd have to pay 1 white guy.

You say well why not target business? Well because which fight can you win: big business with money to run you out of funds if you try to sue them or kicking out law breaking immigrants? Sure people kno who the real problem is, but it's a matter of pick the fights you can win.

That's not xenophobia, it's self interest.

[–]Troflmao 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you on that. I confess I am Canadian, and I'm constantly telling people here who are so pro-immigration that criticize the states and european nations for being anti-immigration that immigration here is far easier to regulate and control due to our unique geographical advatages. I Most immigrants in Canada have post-secondary, so yes i have my bias on immigration. I understand its not a simple as just letting everyone in no questions asked.

That being said i AM on r/mensrights and not r/altright. Maybe I'm being to hard on the alt-right but i also think you're being too easy. If i thought the altright had my best interests at heart id be right on board, but as a queer man, i cannot get behind a political movement that supports people like Pence and Sessions. As you said the movement hasn't progressed to the point where they're all on the same page, and they may end up a peaceful group with good intentions who are simply looking out for themselves, which is what I hope. However, i think the opposite could happen, similarly to what's happening to the feminist movement rn, where it progresses to uniformed people using activism as a cover to be hateful to specific groups they don't like. I think it just comes down to these movements becoming to big to fast so it's practically impossible to keep everyone on the same page.

[–]Hannyu 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh I completely get that. They have a long way to go before I'll associate with them, until the associations with hate groups are broken, but just being male, white, and more socially conservative, I get associated with them by default even if it's not true. I think the same happens for a lot of people. People got tired of saying "I'm not a racist just because I believe in following our laws." And started saying "fuck it i don't care if you think I'm racist." and embraced it. I think since that now forms what is a majority of the "alt-right" (rather than the true alt right of hate groups) it will eventually mature and separate from them, but I don't think it will be a perfect movement that suits, fits, or benefits everyone.

I'm not intending to be easy on them, I'm trying to be real about what has sparked the surge in popularity with that group and what I think the potential for it's future is.

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[+]grls_pm_ur_cute_feet -32 points-31 points-30 points 8 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

So you are okay with children and the poor losing health insurance, and cutting social security, all to make an extra $0.50 an hour while the rich get more money to line their pockets?

Or you are okay with deporting working illegal immigrants because they came here when they were 4 years old with their parents? Even though they now have a family and aren't abusing the system like most Americans are?

Oh, you think we should give more money to the "military" so the contractors can put it in their pockets.

You're okay with paying more for a worse internet, only to have to pay more to get it as good as you just had it a year ago? You're okay with people who molest children and blame it on the democrats that they did it, or the party that has openly supported nazis.

You want less gun control because you think that will stop people from committing mass shootings? Better hope your child's school doesn't get shot up. It happens a lot here.

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That's just more "I got mine, fuck you" mentality. If you're white, and more than 2 to 3 generations US, there is a decent probability that your "brave immigrant ancestors" got here "illegally" as well. Just like mine. The issue is that there is a border, and it is just a red herring. The US has flip flopped on border policy several times since it ecame a country, and historically speaking, immigrants are the true "pioneers" of the US. There are very few downsides to having an open border, and quite a few benefits. The US needs to remember the Statue of Liberty, and their own history, and get their head out of their collective asses about several red herrings. Immigration, and prohibition being the two most immediate issues.

Edit: not touching on PoC ancestry, and whether or not that was legal or illegal immigration.

Also, the indigenous peoples that we are still oppressing today, would kindly love you to "go back home"

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[–]Diogenes-- 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

My mother & grandmother are feminists, and abused me severely as a child for being male. It's not just my family, feminism has passed VAWA and Title IX, laws that punish innocent men, and shifted the way our society thinks to the point that 90% of children on psych meds are boys. There's nothing wrong with them, they just don't act like girls so society thinks they're wrong and need to be drugged. These drugs have lots of nasty side effects.

Feminism and the democrat party are largely connected. Obama is the one who signed Title IX into existence, and Bernie Sanders, who would have beat Trump if Hillary didn't rig the primary, was a key figure in passing VAWA.

*

Hours-later edit because it's halftime and Bustin Dimblefake can go to hell: and Hill-dawg herself is an avowed feminist who has said that women are the primary victims of war and that the criminal justice system, already criminally lenient on women, needs to be more lenient on women. So my mother and grandmother got away with destroying my life in the name of feminism, not even a slap on the wrist, but some women actually get punished for child abuse, and according to Hillary Clinton they should all get away with it. And that's who you think should have won? Wtf are you smoking? I disagree with Trump on a lot of things but it was between a guy I don't fully agree with, and Satan herself. I'd vote for him again if I could go back, and thank God he won.

*

The democrat party has all but declared war on human beings who made the mistake of being born white and male, and you honestly can't understand why people under attack would be upset with the attackers? You wish us harm and death for being born a certain way, and you call us Nazis? Fuck you. Fuck you, asshole. Fuck you.

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[–]7a7p 8 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

Ok, let me start at the beginning of your comment:

Yes I’m for ending the affordable care act and any socialization of healthcare in the United States of America.

Yes I’m all for making more money. What other people make isn’t really my business...even corporations and businesses and the evil “rich” people.

Yes I’m for deporting anybody who illegally entered America. Period. Follow the proper procedures or get out.

Yes I’m all for increasing military spending but am against policing the world.

Yes I’m ok with deregulation of the internet. It worked fine before it was taken from the people who innovated it. Now they can continue innovating.

No, I’m not ok with anyone molesting children...but way to try to delegitimize a political point of view by trying to tie them to people who hurt kids. Those people exist everywhere, not just on the right side of American politics.

No, I’m not a Nazi nor am I a Nazi supporter. Again, nice tactics. Pretty big boogeyman you’re building, huh?

Yes, I’m pro-2nd amendment. I absolutely believe that the government should stop taking away rights. I also believe in “constitutional” carry. We shouldn’t have to ask the government to let us exercise our rights.

Thanks for playing, though.

Edit: as a side note, bullies like you are why was afraid to even attempt to understand any conservative points of view and the reason why I finally decided to leave the party. It got really obvious what was happening after Trump won and you all lost your minds and kicked the bullshit into high gear.

[–]grls_pm_ur_cute_feet 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

So you are okay with people dying of cancer because they cannot afford treatment? What about people who wait for things to get so bad they have to go to the ER, which they cannot afford, which drives the prices up for everyone to cover for the people who can't pay? Some people pay hundreds of dollars for a health insurance that only covers 70% after paying $15,000 out of pocket.

You aren't making more money though, if they keep cutting programs you will be working until you die since you won't get health insurance or a retirement plan. Some countries it is illegal to underpay workers and have them live off the government, here it is not. Almost all companies take advantage of that.

The whole thing of competition will make jobs better is just a load of shit that you ate up like candy. If everyone does it there is no competition for better jobs.

What about building the stupid wall? It won't stop illegal immigrants. What other plans did the republicans come up with? Why not make it easier to get citizenship? Why not have open borders so Mexicans can come and work here, pay taxes, and then go back home? There are other ways than just deporting.

Wen Georgia tried a mass deportation they lost money because guess what? No one wanted to take those hard working farm jobs. It's just an excuse lazy people give to explain why they don't have a job.

Why do we need to increase it? We already spend more than any other country, and we do not know if it is actually going towards defense or just lining pockets. Why not make it public where all this money really goes to?

The issue with deregulating the internet is increased prices for a worse service. There is almost no competition with the big companies. Most people only have one option. Only comcast, or only charter. Laws are in place making it almost impossible for other companies to either start or expand. Either make it easier for competition to be a thing and stop giving big companies a legal monopoly or it needs to be regulated so people don't get taken advantage of.

Not a boogeyman about the Nazis when Trump himself said they are very fine people.

Taking away rights is not the same as making it illegal to get an automatic weapon with a 100 clip magazine. You can still have a gun in your home to protect yourself, or a gun to go hunter, or a pistol to carry around. You just can't get a weapon meant for killing a lot of people in a short amount of time.

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The people supporting this movement of mensrights are starting to seem pretty backwards to me

If you generalize like that about any group of people, you can make them and their cause sound ridiculous. How about you keep an open mind about each individual as you encounter them? Maybe someone on here is for Men's Rights because in a divorce with a drug addicted irresponsible wife he lost custody of his children who are now living with her in a trailer.

Sometimes the mother is the better choice, sometimes the father is the right choice, and sometimes both parents are fit and should share custody. But the legal system doesn't work like that and this is just one example of why we have men fighting for Men's Rights now.

It's a 100% legitimate cause. But that doesn't mean that 100% of the people here on this sub are reasonable or righteous in their intent. Just because there are people on this sub who express things you don't like doesn't invalidate the others on this sub or in this movement.

I know that's harder to do. It's easier to dismiss a whole group. But it's not right, is it?

This sub, just like any other associated with a specific cause, attracts people who find in it an excuse to express hate. That doesn't de-legitimize the cause tho. Up until fairly recently this sub was not nearly as well known. And guess what? It wasn't nearly so bigoted because the only people finding their way here were actual Men's Rights activists. Go take a look at TwoX. It is literally 100 times the size of this sub and it is even more of a fucking shit show. I'm not saying Feminism is bad. I am not saying women do not have legitimate issues in today's world. I am talking about TwoX as a sub. If anything TwoX demonstrates that modern Feminism is even more corrupted than Men's Rights - and that is a shame. As subs get bigger they get shittier. Same with reddit. Same with movements and causes. It takes a LOT of centralized organization and exceptional leadership to prevent a cause from destabilizing as it grows. MLK and the other black leaders were great at this. Which is why he was assasinated. But that was a risky move by the people in power. Nowadays they are much smarter - they destabilize things before the congeal and before strong leaders can emerge.

For example, don't forget that there are a LARGE number of shill accounts here. There is a brigade of fake comments expressing hate and bigotry here trying to make this sub appear more hateful than it is. And those shills end up encouraging and drawing in the real bigots who then stay and the hate supports itself: job well done by the shills.

Those in power have gotten smarter in how they divide and conquer us. We need to be smarter too.

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Currently Dems 2:1 advantage in registered voters Dems 7:1 advantage in congressional representation

Prior to 2011 gerrymandering Dems 2:1 advantage in registered voters Dems 3:1 advantage in congressional representation

And this “more accurately represents Maryland”? Lol

The D’s gerrymandered their districts to go from a 6:2 advantage to a 7:1 advantage, even though 6:2 was already disproportionately in their favor. These are the facts, yet you defend it as justifiable because “simplicity” or “benefits Republicans” or something something. Yes, yes it benefitted R’s so much that they are taking it to SCOTUS. to overturn it!

The fact that you cannot admit, even when presented with the hard numbers, that Maryland was redrawn to benefit D’s reveals that you are either (1) intellectually dishonest or (2) a rabid ideologue. I don’t wish to continue this discussion in either case.

Bu-bye!

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[–]twentyThree59-3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well lets back up... perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "crimes." After all, you didn't. I picked that word. But really, I mean it in a less "legal" way and in a more ethical way. I do believe "ethical crimes" are a thing. Slavery was legal, but an ethical crime.

So with that said... where do I fucking start with the republicans... taxes, public services, human rights, lies, sexism, racism, general bigotry, active partisanship (looking at kentucky's fillibuster of their own bill for that one), corruption, etc etc etc

Explain to me again how we are cutting so many services and spending more?

Don't get me wrong... Democrats aren't saints. But acting like they are equal is like saying that a splinter hurts as bad as multiple gunshot wounds. There is a reason every Republican gov domination in the last 120 years has been followed by a terrible depression.... they fuck shit up, we go back blue, make progress, people forget, we go red, fall apart, rinse repeat.

[–]yesapig1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1953 Recession followed Truman (D) 1957 and 1960 Recessions followed Eisenhower (R) ‘70, ‘73-‘75 - followed Johnson (D) but Nixon (R) was in office by ‘69 ‘80-‘82 followed Carter (D) ‘90-‘91 followed Reagan (R) 2001 followed Clinton (D) 2008 followed Bush

Recessions are natural events in our economy, and no political party is more or less responsible for them.

Depressions are rare, and causes are very complicated. Politics is not one of them.

If I think taxes should be lower, am I deplorable?

If I think “services” should not be the purview of Washington bureaucrats, am I an uncaring monster?

Democrats are just as racist and bigoted as Republicans (because it’s a human flaw, not a political one). I used to be a democrat, was heavily involved in state politics, and there were lots of racist assholes involved...on both sides. The dems just don’t get called on it nearly as much (example: Joe Biden remarking how Obama was such a clean and well-spoken black man). The argument can be made (and has been by several prominent black academics) that democrat policies are largely responsible for the sad state of affairs in the African-American community today.

Neither party is monolithically hateful/bigoted/ignorant...both are in it for themselves and pander for votes, and neither can be trusted to do what they say.

Don’t be a schmuck that looks for the (D) or (R) when voting. Look at policy, not party affiliation.

[–]twentyThree591 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Don’t be a schmuck that looks for the (D) or (R) when voting. Look at policy, not party affiliation.

I do, but I'm also not blind to the pattern that the better policy tends to have a (D) with it.

no political party is more or less responsible for them.

While there have been problems under both parties, we can measure objectively which one has done better and it is not a tie. Your statement is false. http://thereformedbroker.com/2016/12/13/every-unified-republican-government-ever-has-led-to-a-financial-crash/

If I think taxes should be lower, am I deplorable?

Again, this is an over simplification of the issue. Are you suggesting there is no bottom end to how low taxes should go? Google defines "deplorable" as "shockingly bad quality" and if you truly think that we would be best off with zero taxes and zero public services - then you might be of "shockingly bad quality."

If I think “services” should not be the purview of Washington bureaucrats, am I an uncaring monster?

AGAIN with the over simplification. Depends on which services right? Some parts of our environment span across several states and it is absolutely up to the federal government to help handle matters of multiple states. And in some ways, these services (recently reduced) generate money, not cost money - so are we just wanting to do worse or not aware of what we are losing?

Neither party is monolithically hateful/bigoted/ignorant...

Of course not, and no one suggested as much.

Honestly, you aren't making much progress with your point. I'm not here to push "Dems are the best forever." I just think the "they are equally bad" isn't true. One is clearly worse.

I'm just curious, are you a libertarian? I've had some talks with people who think we would be best off if there was zero government and people picked which police station that pay their dues to, etc etc etc. Just want to know if thats where you are too.

[–]yesapig1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Libertarian leanings (I would say classic liberal).

With regard to the article you linked... the author implies, by use of the words “has led to,” a causal effect between Republican policies and financial disaster, while providing no argument addressing those policies, or how they “led to” disaster. This is the classic “correlation vs causation” fallacy.

-Cheap and easy housing loans led to the ‘08 crisis, but the policies that got us those loans were pushed by both D’s and R’s. Democrats insisted on relaxed criteria and low income loan guarantees for inner cities and minorities, and R’s were happy to see the new business coming into Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and deregulated to accommodate.

-The Great Depression, almost all historians agree, was caused by the economic contraction resulting from reduced demand after the ‘29 crash. The initial stock market crash was mismanaged by the federal reserve (a non-political entity), who tightened monetary policy when it should have done the exact opposite. This led to a run on the banks, a deflating dollar, etc. No serious historian argues a political cause.

Speaking of “overly simplistic”, this author is the posterboy.

[–]twentyThree591 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]yesapig1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]twentyThree591 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]yesapig1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]twentyThree591 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]yesapig1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]twentyThree591 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The world is very complex and only politicians are arrogant enough to think they can control outcomes.

Again with over simplification (again, false dichotomy). They don't control - they influence. Of course they don't have full control. No one is saying that. But you can't tell me that they have zero influence. Their laws do things and who is elected does change which laws get enacted.

the truly catastrophic ideas have generally been bipartisan.

Again, I'm in favor of voting reform to get third parties in there. But the reality is that a bunch of bad ideas being shared, does not mean that both parties equally shit on Americans with bad ideas.

Your originally claim I took issue with was "they are both guilty." To which I said "yes, but not equally guilty." To which I stand by. Yes, D's have contributed some issues. Just not in equal amounts to R. No amount of "But they've done some bad stuff" can convince me they are equally responsible. They aren't THAT far out of influence.

[–]yesapig1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]twentyThree591 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I said they arrogantly believe they can predict the effects of their policies

No, you said don't control outcomes, which is a black and white word. They either control, or they don't. This was a correct use of "false dichotomy." You presented a situation in which they do one of two things, do or do not control things. That wasn't a healthy framing of the situation. They do influence things though.

you don’t have to hate one side just because you disagree.

I don't. I just recognize they aren't equal in their sins. That's all this came down to. You said they are all guilty, and all I've said is "but not equally guilty." You can continue to act like I'm 100% black and white about this, but I'm not. It's just naive to think that 2 evil parties means that 2 parties are equally evil.

Like imagine if you were forced to leave your home and you can choose between North Korea or Russia. I mean. Russia fucking sucks... but it's still better than NK right? You might still get killed yea... but it's probably better off.

And I guess I just suppose I care about trying to prevent America from slipping into being as trashy as Russia is now with it's fucked up government. Perhaps you don't realize how poorly things can go and still have faith that America could never end up that shitty, but I don't. In fact it looks like we are headed that way to me.

and for fuck’s sake RELAX...

You haven't been relaxed during this conversation? What does that tell you?

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"California" wouldn't steamroll any election, because "California" wouldn't vote. The voters in California would vote. In any case you could think of, this would actually lessen the liberal power of California by giving voice to all the Republicans that live there.

In every state that is considered a sure-in for one side or another every 4 years, you have a very large portion of the population that isn't getting heard:

There are 18 million registered voters in the state of California, 30% of those are republican. Over 5 million.
There are 8.5 million registered voters in the state of Texas, 3.8 million of them are democratic.

And this is the case for every single state except the swing states.

And that's not even touching the other problems of the EC:

That every single state, no matter how low the population, gets at least 3 electoral votes. That means that Wyoming, the least populated state, gets 1 electoral vote for every 190,000 people, while more populated states like Texas get 1 electoral vote per 780,000. Not all votes are created equal apparently.
The EC completely disregards the millions of Americans living in places other than the 50 states. Places like Puerto Rico, which has a higher population than 21 states + DC. Plus all the other territories.

The states shouldn't elect the President, the people should. One person, one vote, period.

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I'm not sure all of America should be used as a comparison point. That's what makes it possible to argue "If 50% of America is female, shouldn't we have 50% women at Google?" A more appropriate comparison would be college graduates, because that already filters out most of the skew based on personal interests, opportunity, etc.

For example, more Asians probably go to college than whites, compared to all Asians and whites in America. This makes sense because white people are probably more spread out into rural areas where technical degrees might not valued as highly. Instead, white Americans might just be settling for local farming, manufacturing, trades, etc. These are just guesses, but my point is that there are some non-discriminatory reasons for Google employees to not match the general US population.

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[–]JackGetsIt-5 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This comment right here really exposes the hypocrisy of the leftists. If they really wanted equality of outcome they'd set hiring standards by national and racial gender surveys (I'm against that too).

Far leftism isn't even about equality of outcome it's about suppression of those perceived highest on the intersectionality totem pole and promotion of the lowest. So wealthy, abled, white men and then women must be pulled down and African, native, disabled, LGBTQ, must be promoted REGARDLESS of qualification.

Scary times we live in.

What's CRAZY is this type of thinking HURTS minorities and ethnic minorities. If you are promoted in a school, organization or job and you aren't qualified everybody knows it. If nobody wants to be the person or group that's always underqualified that only perpetuates stereotypes. If every time you met a particular ethnic or sexual minority they were incompetent how would your perception of them grow? And how often would they succeed constantly being promoted above their ability?

We had more successful racial mixing in the 70's when people told racist jokes and openly mocked eachothers racial stereotypes because at least that's some type of genuine interaction.

Gavin McIness talks about this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMNcX44dsfQ

edit. Gavin and Joe flush this out more here:

https://youtu.be/frVdO2E5x4Y?t=4786

[–]_youtubot_1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Video linked by /u/JackGetsIt:

Title	Channel	Published	Duration	Likes	Total Views
Gavin McInnes: Yeah, Trump is Archie Bunker. So?	Rebel Media	2017-08-22	0:07:05	7,237+ (96%)	206,405

(LANGUAGE WARNING) Gavin McInnes of TheRebel.media...

Info | /u/JackGetsIt can delete | v2.0.0

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Actually I sympathize. You could spend 10 years of daily scholarship just focusing on the atrocities. It's like they never stop. However, I can assure you it's a much more nuanced picture as your scholarship expands. Just looking into the Huns and some of the more brutal Chinese periods, or Imperial Japan or Vlad the impaler or Pol pot; atrocity and brutality are certainly not horded by people with less melanin.

If you like macro history stuff I highly recommend Jared Diamond. His book Guns, Germs, and Steel is a slog but there's a great three part mini series out there that walks through his thesis quite well.

Another historian I'd recommend is James Burke and the old Connections books and TV series. It shows you history and war is a lot more connected to random inventions and events than identity and borders. Both Diamond and Burke combined will rock your world.

Another interesting thing to realize is that people living in the same area and the speaking the same language and worshipping the same religion can change DRASTICALLY in only a few centuries. The middle east went from spread out peaceful tribes, to cut throat warring tribes to the most educated civilization in history that invented algebra and collected the worlds ideas and then it burnt that library down and burnt all their monuments and wrapped their women in black cloth in the desert. These are all the same people. How would you label those people violent? Peaceful? Smart? Dumb?

Then within a society you can have huge variability. Some of the irish were living almost like cavemen while others (monks) were reading and praying 20 hours a day and saving the greatest works of literature as the viking raided and raped all of Europe.

History is amazing and fascinating.

[–]iHaveAglove1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]JackGetsIt1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's why I want you to read Diamond because of a combination of factors and inventions European imperialism was just the first lucky contestant to use new technology to their benefit. I have no doubt the aztecs or the egyptians or the japanese would have engaged in imperialism as well.

You also need to be hyper careful about your judgement of imperialism. The flip side of imperialism is mercantilism. Without imperialism we don't get world trade and cultures mixing and industrialization and the world we have today.

The Japanese were also BRUTAL imperialists. If you want to argue they learned it from europeans and it's all europe's fault that's fine but if you look at the rhetoric of Japan at the time period I have no doubt they would have done it without a European model. That's just another example of something that's really hard to prove.

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Google Manager to Employees: "Next time you get invited to speak at a conference, especially if you’re a white male – ask the organizer to confirm you’re the only white male on the panel / in the speaker lineup. If not, say you are honored, but must decline, and give the reason."

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