"Choosing better" arguments should also apply to men who get falsely accused, get cheated on, get rejected, if we're going to apply to female victims of violence and SA

Main-Tiger8537 · 2025-10-14T17:31:46+00:00

i would prefer to not use "choose better" at all but if all that said stuff gets recognized + acknowledged sure same standards for everybody...

HammieFondler · 2025-10-14T17:43:58+00:00

I agree with everything you said except this

the manosphere and most of the internet has callously called these victims "stupid" and insisted that they can smell misogyny a mile away

The manosphere does not insist that women can smell misogyny a mile away. Women insist this, usually in response to a guy with misogynist leanings complaining that women don't want him

Secret_Worlder1992 · 2025-10-14T20:38:59+00:00

Except there's one problem - men don't choose.

Additional_Ad_6166 · 2025-10-14T20:55:25+00:00

No because men don’t have the abundance of choices women do. Beggars can’t be choosers.

Downtown_Werewolf_44 · 2025-10-15T04:56:02+00:00

"choose better" is a totally valid argument as long as someone showed signs of dangerous or vicious behavior.

I don't think there is any double standard on that: A man dating a serial cheater and getting cheated on will get the "choose better" treatment. Same for someone dating a know false accuser. I don't see what "gettting rejected" had to do here...

"Even though thousands of women have clarified that they've dated the so-called nice guys, the nerds who "never got a chance" and said guys were still horrible to them, many in the manosphere aren't listening."

What are you trying to prove? Some nerds who never got a chance are great guys, some other aren't. You'll find both, like in any other human group. So you'll have to get to know them to see which one is a great guy and which one isn't... Aka making a choice.

Implying that, because some women date nerds and they were assholes, then all nerds are assholes is a dumb argument.

"Even when we've stated that men can pretend to be nice and filter their worst qualities out for months or years"

I said it numerous times, men are not Disney vilains who sudenly turns into assholes while making an evil laugh. For example, I encountered dozens of domestic violence cases, I can only think of one where the woman was blindsided they way you are describing it. We are talking about less than 1%. In the vast majority of cases, we are talking about signs or "red flags" that should have raise suspicion but were ignored or downplayed by the victim.

I'll had that you could totally empathize for someone while noting that thing could have been different if they have made a different choice. I'll even say that the most adult thing to do: when something goes wrong, you should want to learn from it to avoid being in the same situation again, not dismiss it totally since you weren't responsible.

Vlad_The_Great_2 · 2025-10-14T20:09:57+00:00

I don’t like blaming victims, but if you’re an adult, after a certain point you are willingly walking into a bad situation. That goes for both men and women.

Visual_Jellyfish8074 · 2025-10-15T02:05:52+00:00

Yea if that guy has a tendency to date women who lie, cheat and are abusive I think choosing better is a good actionable advice to give him. I wouldn’t tell a woman who had a one-off relationship with a piece of shit to choose better. Same with a man.

But if you have a pattern of dating those types, you should definitely reflect on what qualities you look for in a partner.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2025-10-14T18:58:52+00:00

Men are not the choosers in human mating

WebNew9978 · 2025-10-14T18:05:16+00:00

People are already doing this to men. Especially when they talk their frustrations of getting rejected, cheated on, falsely accused. Instead of being directly being told choose better, they get told the useless platitudes that won’t work for them over and over and over and over and over. Plus how is telling me to choose better when every woman finds me universally ugly to date helpful?

bluestjuice · 2025-10-14T19:16:25+00:00

The problem with the “choose better” framework is that it shifts 100% of the locus of control for outcomes onto the individual, when that often isn’t appropriate. Placing the responsibility for large societal behavioral trends on the laps of individuals is a way of removing any societal responsibility to analyze systemic issues that may contribute to the issue at hand. It’s also hurtful and unjust to make this our go-to response when there are many examples of people who were harmed more due to imperfect knowledge or bad luck, rather than conscious negligence.

It would be foolish to believe that no one’s failures or disappointments were the result of poor choices. At the same time, telling people to do better without supporting them and teaching them how is completely useless. If anything, we should probably be more sparing in our use of “choose better” and deploy it only in cases where we have some real knowledge that bad choices were a key element in the harmful outcome, as well as where we have the ability and capacity to offer support and guidance, rather than distant criticism and shaming.

caption291 · 2025-10-14T22:10:43+00:00

Your options decide what's a good choice. If all you have is 2 shitty options, the reason your outcome was shitty is not because you chose poorly.

If you have a bunch of good options but you consistently end up picking the worst ones (behavioraly) then you're the equivalent of someone keeping dangerous pets and winding up dead/severly injured.

Do you deserve that outcome? Probably not, but you definitely should make better choices in life.

If we're going to pretend that lying isn't real, manipulating isn't real, victims always march right into traps, then that means none of you are victims of anything either, right?

Were not pretending that lying/manipulation etc... aren't real. Were saying that there's a difference between getting unlucky while making good choices and playing with fire. A lot of women are playing with fire while pretending they got completely unlucky.

thousands of women have clarified that they've dated the so-called nice guys, the nerds who "never got a chance" and said guys were still horrible to them, many in the manosphere aren't listening.

In my experience with women saying they gave a guy a chance...they usually exaggerate how much of a chance was given or the "flaws" they were given a chance to. i.e they will be super cold and unreceptive to anything the guy says and when the guy gets tired of their shit and matches their energy they go "SEE SEE that guy was faking being nice!" or whatever confirms their bias.

AreOut · 2025-10-14T19:57:00+00:00

I mean it should, if the girl he picked has the history of such behaviour and he still picked her then he is also resposinble for his choice.

Alternative_Cod2280 · 2025-10-16T18:22:31+00:00

You know what? Let's be callous and uncaring to each other and see who can keep playing this game.

I choose my hell, you choose yours right? It will change nothing for me since I already know for a fact that women don't give a single fuck about unwanted men unless it hit to close home so dont give me the lie that any of you ever cared about it. Hell my life will get even better cause I wouldn't have to be served all these "horror" stories about your evil exes you choose to be and stay with until what you gained from this relationship wasn't worth anymore.

Yeah let's hate each other openly and with more honesty.

Lostandfound_628 · 2025-10-19T13:04:29+00:00

Yes, most people recognize that victim blaming is bad

GrassStatusTouched · 2025-10-19T23:26:37+00:00

Yes. You are correct OP. I fully blame myself for being a fucking idiot and acting out of insecurity and loneliness and settling for the first woman who showed decent interest in me. Will never make the same mistake again.

I have been working on myself for over a year now to be in peak physical, mental, emotional and financial shape, constantly align my behavior with my values, pursue my ambitions, and keep a strong spirit so that I have pride and confidence in myself, and therefore will not be tempted to settle for an intellectually or ethically mediocre woman.

I advise women and men here to do the same thing.

PageVanDamme · 2025-10-14T20:57:34+00:00

Problem is a lot of it are subconscious decision regardless of gender. And often times, it’s a reflection of how a person was treated by parents.

Salty-Brilliant-830 · 2025-10-14T23:02:04+00:00

yeah definitely. men ignore so many red flags because they are horny

Smart-Mall4110 · 2025-10-14T19:33:02+00:00

Choose better is victim-blaming, do not use it period.

calmly86 · 2025-10-14T19:10:22+00:00

“Choosing better” for men already exists… as shown in the fact that society doesn’t give a damn when men are done wrong by the women they chose.

There’s countless shelters for battered women. There’s no such equivalent for men who’ve been financially raped. There’s always an army of women and men who’ll rally around the woman who finally had enough black eyes to see that his height, swag and abs weren’t worth the price. The men who have to move back in with their parents because she got the kids, house, and money? There’s no line of women offering him some company, shelter, or assistance. Not one bit.

The whole thing about “choose better” is that by and large, women do the choosing. Men can choose to approach… but it’s women who decide which approach ends in a date, sex, marriage, and children. It’s her body, her choice, and thus HER RESPONSIBILITY.

Women are always harping about how they bear the greater burden when it comes to the consequences of sex and childbearing. This is true. Yet… in a world in which arranged marriage is no longer a thing for the majority of the population… and women are free to choose whichever men they deem worthy, they also have to own that choice.

There’s a great meme about how “isn’t it hard, being a woman… to have turned down a hundred men and still chosen badly.”

Hot_Lack_4868 · 2025-10-14T17:43:57+00:00

"Even when we've stated that men can pretend to be nice and filter their worst qualities out for months or years"

I thought some people here claimed women can smell fakeness from miles away. Guess they weren't correct and tbh it's women not men who have too many options and people usually say choose better when women end up with men who already have history of violence in past or who are know to be mentally unstable...

DGenerationMC · 2025-10-14T20:53:05+00:00

If you don't want a gold digger, choose better, how could you be fooled if manipulation is only something cartoon villains do? Oh she's divorcing you and taking the car and the house- why did you choose her and marry her?

Oh no one wants to date you, why do you keep choosing girls who don't want you?

Or let's go for even the more fair stuff, the stuff that ultimately shouldn't be a problem for you but somehow is- She didn't sleep with you after 3 dates? Why did you choose to have 3 dates with her?

Louder for the people in the back, please!

GhostXmasPast342 · 2025-10-14T23:53:02+00:00

I agree. Choose better regardless of gender. If you are a woman and you are on the endless Ferris wheel of dating apps with different men, choose better. If you are a dude and you keep getting dumped so she can bang friends, choose better.

GuitarCoBrain · 2025-10-14T19:15:09+00:00

The only people that say "choose better" are people that don't have options. They say that out of spite of the very fact you even had someone to begin with. You shouldn't take these people seriously

JollyRoger66689 · 2025-10-14T21:40:12+00:00

Most men have the choice between taking what they can get vs celibacy...... doesn't seem to be the same

JuicyForeskinn · 2025-10-14T17:50:57+00:00

we do already. we say “don’t put your dick in crazy”

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Neptune-Jnr · 2025-10-14T19:20:55+00:00

eye_of_gnon · 2025-10-14T23:34:14+00:00

Is this deflection/whataboutism because men criticize women for choosing badly? The post sounds like it was created to deflect judgment. Of course men would avoid women who cheat, lie etc if we knew in advance. The question is whether or not people are fooled by the manipulator. Most men don't believe abusive men are clever enough to consistently mask his real self for years because we almost never see that while interacting with other men. The same is not true when interacting with women.

bluepillarmy · 2025-10-15T00:43:14+00:00

Completely agree on the three dates with no sex thing. Why would anyone ever go out to dinner with a person that they weren’t already fucking?

leefjk · 2025-10-15T00:59:36+00:00

I'm fine with all of that except for the "get rejected" part. I think all men would like the discernment to "pick better" to the point where they never get rejected. It's impossible to know who you have a chance with though. lol

Re-Clue2401 · 2025-10-15T02:16:57+00:00

I 100% agree. Especially falsely accused. If you're in the market of picking someone, everyone should aspire to choose better.

Superb-Foundations · 2025-10-15T05:03:58+00:00

Sadly, that would mean men care about women. They dont. They prove that to us daily. They dont even like women as a whole. 4B is the only way.

Popeoath · 2025-10-15T07:28:23+00:00

Even though thousands of women have clarified that they've dated the so-called nice guys, the nerds who "never got a chance"

Them getting to date women fundamentally indicates a difference from the guys who don't.

If we're going to pretend that lying isn't real, manipulating isn't real, victims always march right into traps, then that means none of you are victims of anything either, right?

Thing is guys don't really have many options, so no real luxury to vet.

kexavah558ask · 2025-10-15T15:15:16+00:00

You say this sarcastically, but 2014s MeToo feminism defends exactly that. Articles were written in New York Times about how men should feel a chill down their spine when going to bed with the woman, due to the possibility of her accusing him of rape for not being "in the right state of mind to consent".

Conversely men get attacked as misogynists for guarding themselves against the perils described in the second paragraph.

If they don't get married they are just manipulators who are wasting women's time.

If they try to get court valid evidence that the women consented, they'll get the 'ick' since that proves they fear being destroyed.

If they get cheated on, they get told that's expected for dating "that kind of woman". Simultaneously, openly discarding promiscuous women as serious partners gets men shamed as sexist, or even p3dophiles, since "mature women have a story".

If they refuse to invest their money in dates with women who are not sleeping with them? That's right - evidence that he's an unworthy sexist.

AuraCore-main · 2025-10-15T22:48:40+00:00

Am I sensing pettiness

Spiritual-Rope6141 · 2025-10-16T20:50:08+00:00

Men aren't the chooses, women are, and even then both men and women can't be individually and collectively blamed too much because the offline dating system is physically and veebally dangerous for men and women while men and women who chooses to date are being allowed to operated evil dating systems at all what so ever which is bad.

Reasonable_Mouse789 · 2025-10-14T17:51:21+00:00

There are two aspects off the top of my head:

1) Most people deserve each other.

2) High empathy people are sometimes attracted to low empathy like moths to a flame. You’ll see pairings sometimes of incredibly kind women who are strongly attached to a guy who is very distant. These two types of people can be toxic in their own ways. Perhaps the kind woman gets too close to everyone she knows, and that ends up with cheating (similar to polyamory). Perhaps the distant man is too distant from everyone, and just ends up wanting sex with the next person who offers it. The outcomes of these pairings will depend on the person and their temperaments.

marthasheen · 2025-10-14T18:35:28+00:00

Men get far less choice

SovereignFemmeFudge · 2025-10-14T21:51:55+00:00

u/burbnbougie. OH MY GOD!! PROOF they have ZERO idea what "accountability" is! Spend HOURS dictating what women should do and not do regarding dating, threatening women with a good time (being single and child free) THEN turn around and scream they are SO desperate that their only choice is to CHOOSE whatever woman they can get and then deny that is a choice because they are desperate. When they can erm choose to stay single.

The truth is they take ZERO agency in any sense of the word. ZERO x.

Just_Alternative3167 · 2025-10-14T19:19:13+00:00

It's more applicable to women because they are much more and more often in a position to make an informed choice, as others have pointed out.

Also, I feel women are told this phrase more often because they are much more likely to complain about their (ex-)partner in the first place (although I don't have data or anything to back that up).

Barely-moral · 2025-10-14T19:28:33+00:00

Men don't choose. They take what they can get. So why would a man choose badly. It wasn't a choice. It was the only available option.

Erdenaxela1997 · 2025-10-14T23:11:10+00:00

They don't have the power because men don't have the same variety of options.

A man "choosing" better can mean giving up on having a family altogether if his only two options aren't good.

A woman choosing better simply means choosing a nice guy among several other nice guys. It simply means choosing, while she's young and attractive, the guy you'd want to choose if you had children with someone else.

Knight-Bishop · 2025-10-14T18:50:30+00:00

The Manosphere understands that the only thing that really matters is the behavior of women when they are in their beauty prime of age 18 to 25 YO/no kids.

Is she chasing “bad boys”?

Single dad’s? (Lol. Just lol). Yeah, right.

Is she sweet to men when she gets approached or an arrogant disrespectful bitch?

What kind of men is she sleeping with? Nerdy dudes? Bad boys? Drug dealers? Jersey chaser athletes?

Is she super shallow & chasing GigaChad despite being ugly herself?

The point is, women show their true character from age 18 to 25 YO before they have kids.

This whole “hit the Wall” & “nice guy” thing is so notorious because women are just looking for “any dude with a decent wallet” once she loses her looks/has bastard kids.

Now then, why the fuck would any dude wanna get with a woman whose only reason in being with you is your money?

Why would a man wanna get with a delusional woman who thinks she is “settling” for you when the actual truth is most of the time she use to get pumped & dumped by dudes out of her league from age 18 to 25?

Sweet_Discount4485 · 2025-10-14T18:25:10+00:00

10/10

Only thing I'd add is that it's fine to see these things as matters of individual agency or systemic failures.

But either way, your perspective ought to be applied consistently.

TrumpFucksKidz · 2025-10-14T19:39:57+00:00

They do.

If you if you ignore obvious red flags, that's on you.

Those flags include high body count btw. But y'all don't wanna talk about that.

JJVamps · 2025-10-15T00:43:15+00:00

Except no one says “choose better” to women who got beat once or had a bad ex. They say it when EVERY ex was “abusive” or a “manipulator.” If she can’t see the trend among guys she’s picking after EVERY relationship she’s ever been in, yes, she should pick better.

This is already said about guys. The ones who go on the dating shows and go to 3rd world countries? People clown them for being surprised when the girl they marry is inevitably a gold digger when it was obvious. If every single girl a guy goes for is abusive or a gold digger then yes, he does need to pick better.

Akitten · 2025-10-15T03:47:50+00:00

We do?

Don’t stick your dick in crazy has been a rule since time immemorial. This is literally choose better, and is societally acceptable.

I’ve been stabbed by an ex before, I still think it’s partially my fault for choosing her.

She didn't sleep with you after 3 dates? Why did you choose to have 3 dates with her?

Because that’s the check to see if she’s into you? They aren’t complaining that the test did what it was supposed to do.

Over_North8884 · 2025-10-15T03:55:19+00:00

Most of the time victims of false rape accusations aren't dating their accusers and may even be strangers.

In this example, a man was jailed for a month because the woman, whom he never saw, didn't like how he looked.

https://www.buckscounty.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1257

RahLyt · 2025-10-14T18:05:25+00:00

I didn't read the whole thing. But this is obvious men should absolutely choose better too, what the controversy?

Kreeps_United · 2025-10-15T03:09:43+00:00

I think your general point is that we shouldn't blame victims of abuse. Granted. Was this the best way to say it? Nope.

We already blame men for everything negative that happens to them (unless they're a bigoted podcaster) so a lot of men will shrug as this. And that's when we're actually willing to say the man was the victim. A woman was caught lying about a man hitting her with a brick after she rejected him (caught as in video footage) and a lot of people still supported her.

FitnessBeth · 2025-10-15T03:26:06+00:00

Oooh the men really aren't going to like this one.

yoloswag420noscope69 · 2025-10-14T21:49:21+00:00

When the discussion of women being sexually assaulted or emotionally or physically abused comes up

No no, be more specific. When the discussion of women being sexually assaulted and they still with the assaulter or emotionally or physically abused and they stay with the assaulter comes up.

or even mothers who have been abandoned by the fathers of their children-

Literally nobody says to choose better based on this alone. Was your partner emotionally or physically abusive? Maybe he has low character. Maybe you should've considered what kind of father your emotionally and physically abusive partner would be?

Even though thousands of women have clarified that they've dated the so-called nice guys, the nerds who "never got a chance" and said guys were still horrible to them, many in the manosphere aren't listening.

Whether or not a guy is a nerd doesn't determine if he will be abusive. You have to find that out by dating him. Did you leave him when he became abusive? Yes? CONGRATULATION! You took the advice!

insisted that they can smell misogyny a mile away

Yes, here in this sub there are regular posters who claim that certain behaviors are unattractive not because of anything wrong with the behavior, but the intent behind it. There are women in this sub who claim to literally "tell" the level of sincerity behind men's actions. They claim the nice guy isn't nice and they know that somehow and that it definitely has nothing to do with physical attractiveness.

If you don't want a gold digger, choose better

And guess what happens... men choose better! Men don't entertain gold diggers indefinitely while hoping she changes.

how could you be fooled if manipulation is only something cartoon villains do?

Huh? Women are the ones claiming to sniff out intent. Nobody is saying that if you get lied to once then you should choose better.

Oh she's divorcing you and taking the car and the house- why did you choose her and marry her?

She can only divorce one time. There isn't some longstanding habit of getting divorced over and over again while staying in the relationship. It happens, then guess what men do... they choose better!

Oh you're being falsely accused of SA, why did you choose that person to have sex with?

This is going to be crazy to you, but you know that men don't continue to have sex with someone who accused them of SA, right? Are you sure you understand what the order of events are with the "choose better" criticism? Sex -> SA accusation -> no more sex -> choose better. What's there to not understand?

Oh she cheated on you, why did you choose a cheater?

Relationship -> she cheats -> no more relationship -> choose better. Seriously, how do you not understand this?

Oh no one wants to date you, why do you keep choosing girls who don't want you?

Ask a woman out -> she says no -> choose better. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Men aren't asking out the same women 10 times.

She didn't sleep with you after 3 dates? Why did you choose to have 3 dates with her?

Go on 3 dates -> no sex -> choose better. Seriously, how do you not understand this? The 3 dates happen, then that's the end.

If we're going to pretend that lying isn't real, manipulating isn't real, victims always march right into traps, then that means none of you are victims of anything either, right?

Literally nobody says this. It's when you are victimized, but stay with your abuser that this criticism is brought up.

So why are you so upset?

At what? Your total misunderstanding of cause and effect?

You chose all those rejections

...and chose better after each one.

And why do you care what other people choose then, exactly?

Only when you complain about "all men abuse" or whatever bullshit is when people call you out. If you keep your poor choices to yourself, you won't get criticized.

I love how you think you dropped a truthbomb with this one, when you actually just fundamentally misunderstand the "choose better" criticism.

Reasonable_Mouse789 · 2025-10-14T17:53:04+00:00

There are two aspects off the top of my head:

1) Most people deserve each other.

2) High empathy people are sometimes attracted to low empathy like moths to a flame. You’ll see pairings sometimes of incredibly kind women who are strongly attached to a guy who is very distant. These two types of people can be toxic in their own ways. Perhaps the kind woman gets too close to everyone she knows, and that ends up with cheating (similar to polyamory). Perhaps the distant man is too distant from everyone, and just ends up wanting sex with the next person who offers it. The outcomes of these pairings will depend on the person and their temperaments.

SeemedGood · 2025-10-14T17:41:03+00:00

Women choose, men are chosen.

OkKindheartedness769 · 2025-10-14T17:30:29+00:00

Yes, I agree with basically all of these. More responsibility on all people for what happens in their life and the burden of maximizing their happiness and minimizing their suffering. Sounds like a great idea.

But in general there is some level of nuance between how much could you have foreseeably understood. Gold digger / cheater / you pick people who don’t want you is relatively easy. Some things like being falsely accused of SA can be extremely unpredictable, depending on the context, but if you say don’t choose casual sex where that’s likely to happen, then yeah sure, choose better.

Present-Afternoon-70 · 2025-10-14T18:07:48+00:00

So no one can really argue against holding a principle. I also think when people say choose better they aren't really saying anything other than in this case there is nothing legal to pursue. They might not know but not all bad experiences are sa, and we dont have good conversations about bad messy and complicated sex. Consent is more messy than people want to acknowledge especially when you are an adult.

Sure-Vermicelli4369 · 2025-10-14T19:15:44+00:00

There's a difference between letting a loser bust in you and having your life ruined from a complete fabrication.

PassengerCultural421 · 2025-10-14T17:40:59+00:00

Men have no control of who falsely accused them. TF. Men can still get falsely accused, even if they never had sex with the woman accusing them.

reddit_is_geh · 2025-10-14T18:39:37+00:00

I think as men, we DO tell men to do better. If he's dating some crazy bitch, we generally assume that's on him and his poor decision making. I may sympathize and feel for him, but at the same time it's like "Come on man, this didn't come out of nowhere.'"

growframe · 2025-10-14T17:41:53+00:00

They do.

And why do you care what other people choose then, exactly? It's their life, let them live it, keep making your own choices, they have nothing to do with you if everything is so clearly a choice and in our own control.

I don't care until people insist on making me care. Instead, people complain about it, make it our problem, and start making moral judgments over it. I'd love it if people just deal with their own dumb choices by themselves, but unfortunately humans aren't rational enough to.

Title	"Choosing better" arguments should also apply to men who get falsely accused, get cheated on, get rejected, if we're going to apply to female victims of violence and SA
Author	AnonPinkLady
Upvotes	117
Comments	584
Date	October 14, 2025 5:25 PM UTC (9 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1o6lthe/choosing_better_arguments_should_also_apply_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/choosing-better-arguments-should-also-apply-to-men.1564113 https://theredarchive.com/post/1564113

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