If "men are loyal" and women are opportunistic, how do you explain the concept of "starter girlfriends" and the phenomena of men leaving their SO when they achieve a certain level in life?

HazyMemory7 · 2022-12-06T23:50:32+00:00

Changed to CMV because discussion/question posts must be neutral.

Cactus2711 · 2022-12-06T23:36:51+00:00

A man's loyalty to his woman is tested when he has everything. A woman's loyalty to her man is tested when he has nothing.

masterlaster1199 · 2022-12-07T00:28:39+00:00

I am from Malaysia. We have an even worse phenomenon of "starter wives", or even worse than that still, "starter first wives". And yes, this is most practiced ironically amongst the Muslim community, the exact community where you would expect men to stay loyal due to devotion to Allah and obeying the Quranic teachings of not giving in to temptations of lust and crap like that.

SoIlikeMangos · 2022-12-07T02:56:20+00:00

It's even worse than leaving. It's cheating/having a mistress while you're still married. Sad thread

washington_breadstix · 2022-12-07T08:29:32+00:00

I think lots of men out there, maybe even most, are not "loyal" out of principle, but out of a sheer sense of scarcity. When an average guy is in a relationship with a girl who is even somewhat within the range of his looks-match, then he knows he wouldn't be able to do better than her. And if the guy is average-ish, especially on the lower side of average, then he's aware of what a slog it would be to find any other girl, regardless of whether the new girl matches the attractiveness level of his current one. Most of the time, that guy will take the path of least resistance and just keep the girl he has. Might as well be loyal when your only other option is being lonely.

And I think this dynamic persists all the way up the "food chain" of attractiveness, just with a bit of a diminishing effect the farther up you go. A decidedly above-average guy is aware that he could replace his girlfriend, probably with someone equally hot, but the amount of effort involved still might be enough to deter him. The juice isn't worth the squeeze, yadda yadda. I mean even ultra-rich Chads with all the options in the world still "settle" for relationships. Once they've found someone on the highest level they're capable of getting, the urge to "hunt" for more subsides. Whether you should call that "loyalty" is a matter of subjective judgement, I guess.

iamsooohungry · 2022-12-07T13:19:26+00:00

This is the first time I’ve ever heard the claim that men are loyal to women, it seems so far from the truth I don’t know how it would be seen as a maxim to begin with

confitted · 2022-12-07T16:09:34+00:00

“Men are loyal” is gaslighting

Men are the ones who tell us that they are “dogs” who “can’t help it”, “are as faithful as their options”, “have needs” and “are naturally polygamous”

And I respect men enough to believe them when they tell me who they are

Ordinary-Choice771 · 2022-12-07T02:30:12+00:00

The sweeping statement of men being loyal is obviously full of crap; see all the cheated on female partners, the single moms, the polygamous groups around the world where men "take" several wives. Obviously good men are loyal, but I doubt anyone believes that overarchingly men are the loyal ones in heterosexual relationships.

I've seen a concerning number of posts and videos about men leaving their SO after she made a human with her body or after menopause; evidently, such men are in no way loyal. It appears some men leave their female partner when they've found something they've deemed better---whatever that means. Life experience should obviously mean a lot but who knows what such men decide has elevated their status.

ArseOfValhalla · 2022-12-07T14:11:39+00:00

If men were loyal, they also wouldnt leave once women got sick. Unlike women who stay when the man gets sick. psh.

yuendeming1994 · 2022-12-07T09:16:30+00:00

Just my feeling and opinion with no solid evidence:

Female are relatively proven and tested to be loyal while men are not. It based on the simple fact that sex, opportunity of cheating are much more avaliable to female, vice versa. Then if a female did not cheated to her partner, it is much more reliable that she is loyal. While man did not cheated may just because he don't have a chance, or the cost is higher for him so he is not tested and proven yet. And have seen many so-called social experiment video indicated that men will usually fall into the trap of cheating that testing their loyality.

By the way, anothet observation is that female who cheated will not blame themselve usually; while men cheated would more likely to admit their fault and responsibility

SmilesLikeMardiGras · 2022-12-06T23:27:50+00:00

lol@"men are loyal". yeh because they define loyalty as staying with someone while they secretly cheat on them

Mobrowncheeks · 2022-12-06T23:08:23+00:00

Imagine thinking that most men get to some stage where they can trade in a starter girlfriend for a real one -_-

trippingfingers · 2022-12-06T23:27:28+00:00

1) blanket statements are categorically wrong

2) you will always find examples that support any given position

3) generalizations can be true in general, but aren't by themselves proof of any theory of behavior

AstronautLoveShack · 2022-12-06T23:49:15+00:00

Men are no more loyal than their options. The men who don’t have much experience think they would be the perfect boyfriend because they don’t know any better.

Not saying women have cornered the market on loyalty either.

IntegrityDJones · 2022-12-07T14:07:24+00:00

Considering men cheat more I don’t know where this loyal Bs came into play, but yea men get on here and tell us everyday men are not loyal. They literally tell women to go after gruesome ugly men because they’re too ugly to cheat or be fuckboys. Notice how they always say these men “have no options”. And how they “can’t” cheat. Never about how they won’t or don’t want to. Men tell us on here everyday men are only “loyal” because they’re simply too repulsive to be otherwise and no one wants them. The hilarious part is they paint it as a selling point to women looking for a relationship. “He’s a good guy! Not because he’s actually good, he’s simply too revolting to be a bad guy! You can marry him and be his slave and you won’t die alone!”

Fiestygirl000 · 2022-12-07T00:26:16+00:00

These men will gaslight women and say they have wife googles, which isn’t true when starter wives, men leaving their families for the secretary has always been taking place.

Men are only loyal as their options, so young women shouldn’t be shamed for exercising what’s in their best interest

I say this all time if men had the same options as women they will 100% monkey branch and leave their families for the new woman only thing stopping them is options

Hungry-Nebula · 2022-12-06T23:17:28+00:00

I think that means: Stop trying to generalise entire populations of disparate groups through one singular commonality.

14ers4days · 2022-12-07T01:51:37+00:00

Ha! Who said men were loyal?

Laurely4u · 2022-12-07T15:49:47+00:00

Yes like Mackenzie Bezos never cheated but she lost her younger years and regretted building a man, also Justine Musk

LizvEross · 2022-12-07T22:25:12+00:00

Let’s not forget that women are much more likely to lose a significant other when they get sick or diagnosed with cancer.

NockerJoe · 2022-12-06T23:33:24+00:00

I have a relative who did this. He dropped a loyal nice GF for a crazy now baby mama thats terrorizing him and trying to remove him from his sons life. The big difference is, the first girl was about 25 pounds heavier and had the face of a pitbull terrier. He may not be the best guy but he was also pretty openly a fuckboy in his youth and him being a serial cheater isn't really a secret.

The women who complain about this online are usually not the best looking, but also not vetting their dudes for their personality. In every example I've ever seen like above the guy who cheats or leaves is usually really tall and traditionally good looking and the girl is willing to overlook all kinds of obvious red flags for the sake of the relationship, in the same sense that my dumbass relation walked into a disaster himself that has ruined his life for the same reason.

melody_of_ · 2022-12-07T06:45:24+00:00

Men will often leave if their partner isn't putting in the work or is mistreating them. You rarely hear about men leaving their wives when shit gets rough for them. While the alternative seems to be far more common.

As for the starter girlfriends. Im not sure but its wording seams to imply premeditated deception rather than a suddenly weakened loyalty. Which is similar to the the first example you brought up.

Ok-Map-7596 · 2022-12-06T23:27:32+00:00

men are only as loyal as their options

WilliamWyattD · 2022-12-07T02:11:11+00:00

Neither are more loyal. But women are more miserable when they have decided they made a bad choice. And sex becomes more repulsive when they see their guy a different way than they once did. So this can push women more to end a relationship that isn't working for them--legitimately or otherwise.

antariusz · 2022-12-07T07:27:00+00:00

Girls break up with guys at a shockingly large rate as well, it's weird of you to even think that it would be "normal" for people to have the same life goals at 17 as they would at 23.

AoiLune · 2022-12-07T06:50:35+00:00

Simple. When left to their own devices, women are bad at choosing men.

Women are naturally more prone to falling for charming sociopaths whereas men have evolved to be able to detect when a fellow man is being slimy and subversive. To a woman, often such a man might only appear as a worthwhile guy who she enjoys being around. Meanwhile, other men will often be more likely to see through the veneer of charm and pleasantry to recognize when said man is simply telling women whatever they want to hear and putting on a front in order to get he wants from her. It's a tale as old as time, because women constantly fall for this trap across time and place. Men are often just as bad, if not worse, when it comes to adequately reading women's intentions, while women too are better at discerning the decent women from the conniving backstabbers amongst their gender.

This is why traditional cultures established very rigid and ordered methods of partnering people together in society - because men and women are both quite horrible at picking good partners over partners who merely satisfy their immediate appetites. However, it's not men who are doing this to women. It's the top 20% of Chads who the vast majority of women are competing over, before promptly being tossed away after being sufficiently used up. Essentially, the modern woman is merely getting what she deserves. She rejected tradition in favor of an egotistical belief in her own ability to transcend the need for such things, and she's finding that it's leaving her miserable, lonely, used, and forced to become a vile opportunist just to stay afloat in the tide of modernity that swallows up all but the most extraordinary people.

MGTOW_FIR3 · 2022-12-07T13:14:39+00:00

A mans loyalty is tested when he has everything, a womans loyalty is tested when her man has nothing

2022-12-07T01:54:16+00:00

Are we seriously going to discuss an am I the angel post that OP found on another website that explicitly exist for finding things for OP to get mad at?

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-12-07T02:53:17+00:00

"Sadbitch 55," do you possibly think maybe what you read on the internet is not always true? Lol

Regardless.. most men are loyal. Most women are too. Most humans have never cheated. Men are slightly less loyal than women. 20% of men and 13% of women have cheated though of 18-25 year olds women cheat more.

Regardless -- the starter gf thing is dumb because most men who have the ability to date a hot girl aren't gonna date one just for shits and giggles. After all if I could have sex with many hot girls why would I date one? No. I'd be dating only because I genuinely cared about her.

Additionally, plenty of women post hoc demonize a man who actually isn't doing anything wrong. For example:

A man and a woman meet and go on a date. The woman asks the man what he is looking for and he says "well, I'm not sure. I'm looking to date but I don't know when I'll be ready." They then have sex. They date a few more times (aka not immediate ghosting), then the man falls off.

The woman is gonna say "omggg what a pig he just used me for sex."

Guess what? He didn't. He genuinely didn't know what he wanted and when he decided it was that he didn't want her. She just feels embarrassed and used even though the man didn't use her, morally or in actuality.

alphasupremacy5555 · 2022-12-07T00:28:02+00:00

Loyalty has nothing do with a starter girlfriend. The point of having a starter girlfriend is to develop the skills and experience needed to not have to settle to settle in the future. A starter girlfriend is a woman that a man settles for avoid being single, lonely and sexless.

howdoiw0rkthisthing · 2022-12-06T23:02:47+00:00

Basically women live life on tutorial mode, and once a guy finally works hard enough, beats nightmare mode, he doesnt need to play the tutorial anymore.

edjohn88 · 2022-12-06T23:05:06+00:00

People do lots of things for lots of reasons. Men are just less likely to try to leave as evidenced by statistics.

YveisGrey · 2022-12-07T19:23:08+00:00

In my experience this is what happens to women who chase men, which is why they shouldn’t ever do so. But yea men aren’t more loyal than women, they are more possessive half the time the reason they won’t leave their current it’s because they don’t want her single and outside and/or they don’t think they could find another.

NotARussianBot1984 · 2022-12-06T23:16:57+00:00

Is the girl not leveling up with her man?

I couldn't imagine dating someone that just brings me down forever.

Also I encourage women to date older successful men, when they are young. Don't fuck loser Chad, get with Brad who has graduated!

BTW as a guy that has graduated, and working as a professional in finance, it doesn't help dating that much unless the girls I go for are older than I am. Money isn't a prioity for young women.

HinduProphet · 2022-12-06T23:23:56+00:00

Only attractive men get those starter girlfriends.

Average looking or unattractive men don't.

HazyMemory7 · 2022-12-06T23:56:54+00:00

Women initiate near 80% of divorces. Your anecdotal example from lipstick alley, which from the little i've seen is basically a femcel forum, doesn't change that.

Ironically, the motivation for rollo tomassi (possibly the most influential person in trp) to write the rational male and start writing on his blog is his brother in law's self deletion after his wife left him for a millionaire after he busted his ass to work hard and put all of his children through college.

howdoiw0rkthisthing · 2022-12-06T23:04:43+00:00

Men are loyal to women that deserve it haha

SDW137 · 2022-12-07T05:39:41+00:00

High value men are rarely "loyal".

HinduProphet · 2022-12-06T23:15:39+00:00

People of both sexes do starter/placeholder partners. Generally it's someone using someone more stable or monied than them to elevate socioeconomically, then, once stable, they break off and go for who and what they really want because the starter/placeholder has now outlived their usefulness and or utility.

lolthankstinder · 2022-12-07T00:07:24+00:00

As a 27M, I've noticed my desirability "increase" as I get older. I was single at 18 and was down BAD. I was single again 24-25 and, it was a little better. Then, again at 27 and it was WAY better. I felt like every woman I was getting a date with was out of my league, including my girlfriend now. They're not out of my league though, I just feel that way because I was neglected and undervalued growing up.

I don't deliberately plan to be single. When I'm in a relationship, I try to make it work. However, a lot of my earlier relationships weren't very "high quality" and that may have been a major contributing factor to why they didn't work out. If you want to fix that, convince younger women to have more realistic standards and give more sex/interest to equally desirable guys. Then, guys like me may be able to find quality relationships rather than "starter" relationships.

AstuteBlackMan · 2022-12-07T01:34:56+00:00

Because most men don’t have starter girlfriends or are at the status where they can do that.

Most men are lucky to talk to 10 girls a year in a serious manner. Men that go over that are top 20% and in all seriousness probably closer to 10%

pinpointnade · 2022-12-06T23:59:41+00:00

There’s a name for the man you are describing, and that is Chad.

Aubrey_D_Graham · 2022-12-07T03:21:33+00:00

Women initiate 70% of divorce. College educated women initiate 90%. Yeah, who is the more loyal gender?

LowCreddit · 2022-12-06T23:32:12+00:00

Men don't do this. Women do it to themselves. She's supporting a man while he goes to college. He's obviously out of her league and about to take her stuff too. She's a joke and there will only be more episodes like this as time goes on.

calfshrug · 2022-12-07T00:14:08+00:00

No one is loyal you dafties - no one who isn’t asexual and has the ability to perceive and think of something they’re sexually attracted to.

And going by the common accepted definition of loyalty - ignoring the infidelity in the mind only element - there is no type of person who is loyal besides loyal people, and just like celebrities and athletes taking steroids, students cheating, and criminals trying to avoid getting caught - you can’t reliably predict who cheats, and it sure as hell can’t be said that women / men mostly cheat - both fucking cheat.

I’m a man and I’ve cheated, which I came clean about to my love. It took years, but I did it.

Ever watch Greg Doucette the bodybuilder and fitness YouTube guy? He says sometimes in his videos how he keeps secrets to the grave when his friends or clients tell fess up to him about their indiscretions, whether it’s drug use, crimes, or how they cheat on their spouse or partner. It’s almost as if perhaps he’s tacitly admitting to having cheated; by how much he drilled this point into the ground in some of his videos.

The world is full of cheaters, and I guarantee ALL of you that you know, maybe even dearly love, and might BE dearly loved by a cheater, right now. It might be your parent, brother, partner, uncle, sister, your friend’s cool partner who seems to have it together - there are tons of cheaters, and some of us cheat because we started lying from the start and were afraid, felt worthless, and were putting our minds into the wrong places that filled them up with toxic messages and despair, and because of ravenous lust and exposure to sexual stimuli while not being comfortable to express their sexuality in their youth. I fit all of the above reasons, personally. But there are also cheaters who do it for these other reasons——

Some cheaters cheat because they like breaking the hearts of or feeling their misters or mistresses. Some cheaters are psychos who think about the pain they’ll be able to inflict one day when it comes out, or to use it as leverage. Some cheaters cheat because they’re aroused by the idea of doing something wrong and getting away with it. Some cheaters can just be exceptionally dumb, tepid IQ people who are so slow that they don’t even remember what they’re doing until after they do it. You see, there can be a lot of reasons, but generally, you get three camps of people - with malicious being defined as having desire to cause harm - willful and malicious cheaters, willful and nonmalicious cheaters, and non willful cheaters (stupid / psychotic / sleepfuckers). Most cheaters are probably willful and non malicious.

All in all -

Only loyal people are loyal, and there’s no way of knowing. We have some data that suggests that men are more likely to commit adultery, which I DO believe, but that I don’t think is that significant - I believe that we humans are not ^{entirelyⁱⁿ} possession of free will.

Imagine that you are held at gunpoint - if you pull a lever or have another person or persons shot, you will be spared. Lest you will be sent into the abyss. UNLESS you are an ascended individual who has mastered meditation and the mind, you will almost certainly not be able to align your will with either of these outcomes, unless perchance the party who will be killed at your command is, say, a serial rapist. I think it’s safe to say that we have the ability to imagine free will, and we have the ability to conceive of right and wrong, but we are heavily influenced by the avoidance of suffering.

And to address the starter girlfriend thing - the idea of serial monogamy disgusts me as much as me telling you all that I cheated disgusts you! Serial monogamy, sexual positivity, sexual imagery en masse for all people and children to see - all of these cultural mainstays are toxic. CMV- if you tell a person you love them forever , that means something, damnit!

I never told another woman in my life that I love her, and I never have - only the woman I cheated on. I’m in pain everyday because of this, and I fessed up to it.

Moneydamjan · 2022-12-07T04:58:25+00:00

most divorces are initiated by women

2022-12-06T23:26:29+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Kobe_curry24 · 2022-12-07T00:39:46+00:00

You guys prolly scene that meme of rich guys wife’s it’s has a millionaire wife then it ends with a trillionairs wife and she’s the same women as millionaires wife

AdBeginning2559 · 2022-12-07T19:40:43+00:00

Im personally going through a similar situation right now, as a man. I’m 22 and about to finish college. I’ll be stepping into a 6 figure career and am a relatively good looking person. I’m in a committed relationship and occasionally intrusive thoughts arise about whether I could “do better” and whether I should walk away. It pains me to say it because leaving someone because of something so vain is, in my opinion, super amoral. Moreover, she’s a good person who I find attractive and can see myself having a future with.

It certainly sucks most for women, but It’s also a painful thing to go through for the guy. Ultimately I think the harder choice is probably the right one.

2022-12-07T19:53:18+00:00

From what I seen. Males being able to make kids in later years while their older wife can't. That drive to find younger fertile is just hard wired in. Then how many see women as status symbols. Like my advice for a girl is to honestly date older. I think that's why many do. Because if you're 20 and he's 30. When he's 50 you'll be 40 and both will probably start to sexually decrease. Women hit their peek sooner and faster than men. If you date a man you're age you better hope he doesn't leave you when you're 35/40 and he wants another kid or just wants a younger person. Plus he's more mature now and so wife 2 gets the man you helped build up. Even then he might want wife 3 in the future. Look at DiCaprio lol

Aw0lManner · 2022-12-07T01:41:48+00:00

Women choose opportunistic guys

redemption_soon1 · 2022-12-07T01:51:50+00:00

Both men and women are disloyal in different ways. If a man ascends in social status/his SMV goes up and he gets an opportunity to be with a more attractive women he is gonna inclined to take that opportunity. Same thing but if a women is with a man of a low status/SMV and she gets is approached by a man with a high SMV.

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greyok_ · 2022-12-07T06:01:57+00:00

I don't think I've ever heard the term "starter girlfriend" used before ever. I mean ever.

I can see some people dating to move up in society like weird sociopathic elitists, but most people date because they like who they're with and it's not to be seen with them.

UneastAji · 2022-12-07T11:41:03+00:00

Every man I've seen who said their gf was a starter are still with them years later.

I've never seen this strategy be actually consciously employed.

However, when people say "men are loyal" I think it's more that they compare men who cheat with women who cheat and think that men's sexual disloyalty doesn't imply a disloyalty to the house, the wife, and their marital duties. While when a woman cheats, it's usually just over. I'm not advocating for that point of view right here, I'm just exposing that this is probably what they have in mind.

Karmanger · 2022-12-07T12:16:25+00:00

Considering that women initiates over 70% of divorces according to the census….. the majority of men don’t.

Do your research, a quick census check disproves your post.

rickmackdaddy · 2022-12-07T12:22:29+00:00

Humans are generally not monogamous creatures. Both sexes will seek to optimize their opportunities.

abaxeron · 2022-12-07T12:23:56+00:00

If "men are loyal" and women are opportunistic, how do you explain the concept of "starter girlfriends"

If men are not loyal and women are not opportunistic, how do you explain excess divorces initiated by women outpacing excess cheating by men? How do you explain women being more likely to cheat and divorce while they're still most fertile? How do you explain the richest women in history being divorcees? How do you explain estimated 1.5 to 4 percent of men raising at least one child that they falsely believe to be theirs?

While women initiate the majority of divorces, any attempt to draw attention to men who leave their wives is red herring.

Finally, a lot of "plenty of cases like that" are outright lies. McKenzie "took" Bezos when he was "nobody". Which in Californese means "vice-president of Manhattan-based investment company".

Latter_Adagio8945 · 2022-12-07T13:55:01+00:00

I think men are often hypergamous too. It’s just harder to them to get to that level of abundance. There’s a fair bit of overlap between male and female behaviors. I would argue men tend to be a little more consistent.

And tend to stick with their words, if said in sincerity, a little more.

But overall I’d say that it’s just society has shifted to women having a more unbalanced level of power in many circumstances when it used to be the opposite.

Durderian · 2022-12-07T15:11:28+00:00

It’s chads that do that. That’s it.

wtffellification · 2022-12-07T15:24:08+00:00

Well, yes, some people abuse their power and some people who are equally as shitty look up to them. It usually doesn't last very long though. And it doesn't have much to do with gender, I'd say

alchemist10000 · 2022-12-07T15:34:42+00:00

I once turned down an opportunity for a threesome after a night out clubbing, because there was this girl whom I loved and I wanted to be with her and her only. What sucked was when I asked her out the next week, she rejected me, then started dating someone more attractive then me.

So I think that when a person loves their partner (regardless of gender), they would be loyal to them despite other options being present. Sure amount of options come into play, but if you love someone all the other options in the world don't matter.

It's only when you fall out of love that being disloyal happens. So the question would be, which gender is more prone to falling out of love?

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-12-07T15:59:05+00:00

To some extent I agree with the never build up a man philosophy. But what I do believe in is build together. I knew my continued relationship was contingent on my growing and progressing in my career and education. It's important to him and if I flamed out it wouldn't align with his values. He was a pizza delivery boy, I worked at a jewelry counter. We rose together. I cannot deny he helped facilitate my rise by moving me to an area that's like career cocaine. And allowing me to focus on paying off my student loans in their entirety.

It also hit one of my core values, never be financially reliant on anyone especially not a romantic partner.

I think working and supporting someone through school is the most foolish thing anyone can do, you're de prioritizing your own growth. No good partner would even allow you to do that.

I don't think men do this starter thing, I think some unscrupulous men do but it's not pervasive.

randomaviary · 2022-12-07T16:02:50+00:00

It’s important to point out that most men never achieve the kind of status you’re talking about. I’m sure if they do this it hurts their partner, but I’d wager the average man doesn’t ever get to a point where he even has the option, which is to say I think its a slim minority of men that do this.

RealAmericanWeasel · 2022-12-07T20:34:56+00:00

Speaking as a guy in my early 40s who has never had a girlfriend, if I had one at 18 or 19 (or a few years older), I would never have any intention of staying with that person forever and neither should she. Who would want the rest of their life tied to a decision they made at that age, when we all know so little? People should be allowed to respect their own ignorance.

kayman79 · 2022-12-07T21:49:33+00:00

Men who reach a certain level in life, usually due to a long period of hard work and dedication, essentially become the male equivalent of a hot woman. It can make men arrogant the same way many very attractive women are.

Uglyworthless3086 · 2022-12-08T21:00:22+00:00

Yes! I've been a practice girl and I'll tell you most men are anything but loyal! I've been used over and over agian by guys that just wanted a quick lay! Look up hogging too! They're only loyal to the dumb blonde Barbies!

syndactylity · 2022-12-08T23:27:10+00:00

Women could successfully cheat 24/7 if they wanted to. Looks like they’re more loyal

Appropriate-Drink775 · 2022-12-24T16:53:51+00:00

I have seen this behaviour, but isn't it also often women who just generally dump partners for someone better.

My girlfriend did both to me :/

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