As a red pill or purple pilled man, what do you think about feminism?

wtknight · 2024-10-23T04:48:05+00:00

Post re-flaired to Question for Men due to title

Kman17 · 2024-10-23T03:41:46+00:00

I’m talking about actual feminism where women strive for equality and don’t want to be treated like second class citizens

In 2024 in the west, I struggle to see how women are actually treated as second class citizens.

Whenever women are asked what specific barriers exist or rights they have that men do not, the answer is nothing codified - instead you get a word salad of unequal outcomes at the c-suite level and feelings; not a systemic barrier.

Feminists will tend to look at representation in c-suites or some high tech knowledge fields and attribute any inequity to implicit bias or internalized misogyny or whatever.

They will try to ignore fact that women select those fields in university at far lower rates.. and when they can’t avoid that question it becomes somehow men’s fault too, despite women being the primary caretakers / teachers / counselors that steer kids into careers.

Feminist fixate on “toxic” masculinity, but don’t really acknowledge the fundamental issue that most women like confident men at the top of the social hierarchy - they are attracted to in partners the very behaviors they wish didn’t exist in the aggregate.

Feminist want to be seen as more authoritative and independent - but are kind of uninterested in giving up the favorable treatment they receive in society (legal benefit of the doubt / protection, dedicated support programs like WIC and AA).

We’re sort of at the point where the inequities that irk them are the opposite sides of a coin of a privilege they enjoy - and none of it being legally codified, all pure behavioral and relationship based.

I think feminism achieved most of its core goals by the 70’s and then saw women succeed in many fields they were barred from in the 80’s and 90’s.

I don’t know what’s left for women to gripe about as pure systemic grievance. They recently shed a light on sexual violence that was good, but a lot of the root issue there was women not reporting more than men covering for shitty men.

So I think of modern feminism fairly negatively - it’s all grievance and zero accountability with very unclear objectives.

nightcall379 · 2024-10-22T21:14:59+00:00

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Tokimonatakanimekat · 2024-10-22T21:41:34+00:00

I think feminism already achieved it's primary goals, but there are still a lot of people making mad money out of it, so they are interested in inventing more reasons for it to stay relevant with their increasingly complicated mental gymnastics.

Perfect_Sir4820 · 2024-10-22T22:53:16+00:00

I think women have achieved equality and feminism is now geared towards giving women unfair advantages over men, preserving traditional female privileges, and avoiding social responsibility. Feminist organizations seem to think that rights are a zero sum game and that addressing issues that predominantly affect men somehow hurts women.

The single exception to this is abortion rights but that is a US issue (among western countries anyway) because of the high number of religious nutcases here. Having said that, much of the pro-life movement is led by women and it's not the case of men taking women's rights away.

grown_folks_talkin · 2024-10-22T22:15:18+00:00

I have a positive connotation toward it. I think online gender-war stuff has gotten out of hand in the last two years. Still I’m hardcore pro-choice and definitely see the difficulties women face in male-dominated workplaces.

As an aside, past these basics sexism is more complicated than racism or homophobia due to the sheer amount of women that uphold misogyny, and almost by definition, a certain type of misandry. There are way more women for whom repressive gender roles work than black folks for whom repressive race rules work.

one-off-one · 2024-10-22T22:08:31+00:00

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Cactus2711 · 2024-10-22T23:22:53+00:00

It's Schrödinger's Feminism

A lot of woman want to be seen as strong independant boss babes, whilst simultaneously pushing for diversity hiring quotas, refusing to work manual labour, bleeding men dry for alimony, complaining about the pay gap whilst working lower income industries, fewer hours & safer jobs

Feeling_Ad_1034 · 2024-10-22T21:00:12+00:00

I don’t.

My stance has always been “it seems to have done more good than harm, so I’m for it”

But in all honestly, very few people spend a significant chunk of energy on that kind of stuff. It’s mostly incels who obsess over it IMO

Savings-Bee-4993 · 2024-10-22T22:46:40+00:00

If “feminism” means “equal treatment under the law and equalizing opportunity for men and women, including liberating both from gender roles and expectations,” then I’m a feminist.

But this is not what feminism often means in practice, nor do many self-proclaimed feminists advocate for equal rights and opportunities for men and women. Nowadays, unfortunately, “feminism” often means “liberating women from shame and gendered roles while giving them advantages over men to make up for historical injustice while criticizing men and maintaining their roles and expectations surrounding masculinity.”

I’m general, I am in favor of promoting individual autonomy and socio-economic opportunity where doing so does not require discrimination or the violation of individual rights (e.g. redistribution of capital), though I disagree with many feminists’ call to completely eliminate shame and shaming.

Large_Wishbone4652 · 2024-10-22T21:11:24+00:00

When a question "what rights men have and women don't and you would want them" is treated as a gotcha question then you know they are pretty much full of...

Every time I look into their talking points then it falls on it being a lie, deception or just "I think so" without any proof behind. Basically a slight push and it crumbles.

It's nice that they mean well and are going about their things with good intentions but that's kinda detrimental to their own cause. It looks like a religion, you have to believe everything they say no matter how ridiculous it is and don't question it.

Wanderingwombat1902 · 2024-10-23T01:29:50+00:00

Extremely negative. Modern feminism is only about oppressing men.

OuroborosMadness · 2024-10-23T06:52:22+00:00

I find them hypocrites. They talk about equality but only interested on matters benefit them.

Haunting_Switch3463 · 2024-10-22T21:57:09+00:00

I dont. Only thing that matters is policy and actual material change. Feminism has become a word without any real meaning and is understood differently depending on your political views.

I also think that its meaningless when men call themselves feminist and actually dislike them more because of it. If you ask them what changes they have made in their life to empower women and work towards equality they are rarely able to give a good answer. Oh and I have known men that call themselves feminist whose action don't reflect that at all.

My father never called himself a feminist but had to flee his homeland when he and a couple of his friends tried to organize anti-hijab demonstrations. They did this several times until they went to jail and got tortured. Don't matter what you call yourself only action matters.

Feminism in the modern day has taken up so much space in the media and public discourse so that mens issues are not really talked about openly. If you mention some of these things you are immediately branded as some kind of incel. We talk about getting women in to STEM but, at least in my country, there is no mention of fewer men going to college and getting their degree. Mental health is largely ignored. Instead its all about social media and its impact on young women. Nobody really cares and the worst ones are the male feminist whom somehow are the most offended when any important issue about men is mentioned.

TopShelfSnipes · 2024-10-22T21:00:31+00:00

My actual views on classical feminist topics, as a man:

Actual equality: Hell yes.
Abortion rights: As long as a fetus is not viable outside the womb, a woman should be able to do whatever she and her healthcare provider want to do (and that timeline provides plenty of time to both detect the pregnancy and make a decision). Personally, I recognize abortion's clincial need in many different scenarios, and I don't think anyone should ever be forced to give birth to a rape baby. However, I detest it as a form of backup birth control...I just don't think the state should ever be involved, except as noted above if a fetus is viable outside the womb because there are lots of infertile couples who would love to adopt and don't want to deal with foster care.
Women sports leagues: Hell yes. Let the (two X chromosomes) girls and women play.
Equal pay: Equal pay for equal work.
Feminism in general: I find that most people (but not all) who self-identify as feminist adopt some level of axe-to-grind, oppressor-oppressed Marxist worldview towards sex and gender issues, and I am not down with that. I support equality of the sexes 100%, but the second you adopt a Marxist worldview...I'm out. There are many more people who'd probably identify as "pro-women" or "pro-female" where it's more about equality because even in women's spaces, I find that the "feminist" label has negative connotations because of what radicals advocate for under the label.

Any others you want to ask about, OP?

SomeSugondeseGuy · 2024-10-22T21:15:09+00:00

Generally, I respect the movement. I strongly respect their work throughout history and believe that historically it's been a net gain.

I have no problems with what they (REAL feminists) do. What they don't do, however...

They're strangely silent on issues like how male victims of women are treated by studies and several western governments, has dissuaded me from truly associating with the greater movement. Silence is compliance and I will not be part of something that is compliant in something like the NISVS's choice to use euphemisms to describe 85.3% of instances of rape against men by calling them "made to penetrate". If you combine rape, sexual coercion, and "a man being forced to have sex with someone against his will through either violence or drug facilitation", a man was victimized by a woman once every 10 seconds in the year of 2016 (Original PDF) There are more female victims than male, yes, but the treatment is completely different.

Additionally, in the UK, Canada, most western countries, and Idaho for some reason, a woman raping a man physically cannot be counted as rape in a legal sense.

If anything near this discriminatory were happening to women, feminists would call this rape culture. Because that's what it is.

But they don't - which in my mind cannot coexist with the idea that feminism is for everyone.

You said not to comment about the extreme side - this is not actions from the extreme side. This is inaction from the entire movement. The moment I hear the words "the NISVS promotes rape culture against men" from a feminist with mainstream feminist support, I will be at a women's march within the hour.

As to your exact points:

Abortion - I am pro-choice and always will be.
Women being treated as people - I believe feminism advocates for this rather effectively, and support them on these efforts.
Gender wage gap - I believe it's real of course (though more due to implicit bias rather than active discrimination), and encourage human resources departments to do a better job of combatting it.

PradaAndPunishment · 2024-10-22T21:23:35+00:00

Do they not explain their thoughts about it everyday here

Main_Following1881 · 2024-10-23T21:48:24+00:00

Feminism is cool feminists can be annoying

Raii-v2 · 2024-10-24T01:46:03+00:00

Women are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want, which I think is great. Full stop

Now I may not agree with all of their views or points, and sometimes they’re yapping harpies, but they’re still women who deserve full autonomy, and lives that they are happy and fulfilled with.

Next question

Environmental_Day558 · 2024-10-22T21:18:29+00:00

Purple pill, but from what I gather just because askfeminists keeps popping up in my recommended, there is an expectation that equal opportunity is supposed to lead to equal outcomes and it doesn't work that way (wage gap for example). Like they say equality but what they really mean is equity. This is why people say that feminists want privilege.

Cunnin_Linguists · 2024-10-22T21:05:10+00:00

Feminism in concept is ok

Feminism in practice is just a tool for modern women to enforce female superiority, picking and choosing all of the good things to get equality for, while still maintaining all of the advantages and privileges of being a woman.

For example: most feminists don't want to abolish gender roles. They only want to abolish gender roles for women, they still uphold male gender roles very rigidly.

griii2 · 2024-10-22T21:40:04+00:00

Actual feminism is a hate movement. There are countless examples of feminist leaders, writers, famous activists or scholars who openly say they hate men: r/ToxicFeminismIsToxic.

At the same time there is not even a single example of feminist leader who condemns this hate. Or can you show me one? I thought so.

The more extreme side is the only side.

StopTheIncels · 2024-10-22T23:35:57+00:00

You are going to rustle some feathers. The wage gap is false, there is a PARENTAL wage gap (between fathers and mothers). Women don't actually like being treated as equals (see men-only groups and how their dynamics change once a woman shows up, sports, etc). Dating is self-explanatory. I'm for abortion, sorta - but the State will never legalize financial abortion (mother wants to keep accident kid, father doesn't).

I think feminism is fine, but it takes itself too seriously in the modern Western world (apex fallacy, wage gap, reproductive rights). Most young women outearn men and go to college more, and most states have legal and safe abortion laws.

abaxeron · 2024-10-23T00:10:00+00:00

You are being dishonest by presenting any feminism you don't approve of as "not real". All feminism is real feminism, it has always been about hating and blaming men, declaration of sentiments mentions the word "he" 19 times and opens the list of sentiments with a falsehood.

Even if we limit ourselves to the most vanilla feminist individuals, they cannot agree among themselves what "a woman" is.

Reasonable-Cookie783 · 2024-10-23T01:52:24+00:00

It's no longer necessary. Any inequality currently is the result of individual bad actors and there is legal recourse. Sorry ladies don't give me the female CEO nonsense and stuff like that men are still way more likely to want to put in 80 hours week after week and year after year. The most egalitarian societies in the world are in Scandinavia and according to studies women are choosing very traditionally female jobs there because, get this, that's what they want to do!

ThatLeval · 2024-10-22T22:14:53+00:00

gender wage gap

That statistic was misappropriated by feminist's trying to push a victim narrative. The fact that it was ripped apart a long time ago and people still bring it up shows they have no interest in the truth

abortion rights

The core of that topic is human rights issue. Feminists prefer to change the conversation to a more favourable argument. The "my body my choice" nonsense doesn't work on anybody with atleast half a brain

women being treated as lesser than men

Happens, the reverse does too. Most suggestions to fix it most likely to leads to more issues

I like to think feminism is about addressing issues that Women are facing in society. The problem is that I struggle mightily to find a feminist that doesn't believe in dumb shit or doesn't dislike Men

nightcall379 · 2024-10-22T22:36:29+00:00

I’m talking about actual feminism where women strive for equality and don’t want to be treated like second class citizens.

Equality is earned, not demanded

You can't have a society where 96% of construction, and extraction fields employees are men, where 97% of soldiers dying in combat are men, where 70% of stem fields employees are men(60% of college attendees are women+gender based quotas)

Yet women screaming about equality that they did absolutely nothing to deserve

Redpill-mind · 2024-10-22T20:42:28+00:00

I’m talking about actual feminism where women strive for equality and don’t want to be treated like second class citizens.

Equality is like a child's bedtime story

Good to help them sleep and dream but only that

Electric_Death_1349 · 2024-10-22T21:34:09+00:00

It’s a load of bullshit - an asinine, childish, pseudo-ideology that simply serves as a vehicle for white, middle-class liberal women to demand special treatment and privileges under the guise of “equality”

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yourfavoriteblackguy · 2024-10-22T22:35:05+00:00

That poor woman never had the luxury to experience these problem nor there solutions...

Junior_Ad_3086 · 2024-10-22T23:14:12+00:00

- the adjusted gender pay gap is between 1 and 5%, which can be explained by men being more aggressive when it comes to negotiating raises. the whole 83 cents on the dollar thing is incredibly dishonest.

- abortion rights are not an inherently feminist issue. or what rights do men have in this matter that women don't?

in essence i think equality has been more or less achieved in the west. in the us you even have dei hires favoring women over men. men and women are also quite different so expecting equality of outcome for both genders makes no sense to me. there are much bigger issues in the most egalitarian societies in the world so i'm wondering why women are self-proclaimed feminists in those societies in the first place.

uccelloverde · 2024-10-22T23:29:12+00:00

I think feminism as you’ve described it - seeking equality between the sexes, and excluding the extremists- is great. I’m glad women have more opportunity today to pursue the life (career, marital status, social life, etc) they want, rather than be forced into the homemaker role. My mom worked for a bit, but eventually became a stay at home mom and I think long term it wasn’t good for her- now that my brother and I are grown, she doesn’t have a ton going on in her life.

If I find a partner, I want her to have a career she enjoys and things going on in her life- I don’t want everything to revolve around me.

Affectionate-Still15 · 2024-10-23T00:05:33+00:00

I think that as a general rule we should have rights and responsibilities in society. I think that feminism has increased the rights of women and lowered their responsibilities a bit while for men it’s lowered their rights in many good ways (no longer getting away with domestic abuse, etc) and increased their responsibilities in bad ways (essentially because of hypergamy). Feminism in itself is not bad, ie the idea that men and women should have equal rights and equal (but sometimes different) responsibilities. What becomes bad is when the feminist movement, like all movements eventually, is used as an excuse for bad behavior.

I’m very libertarian in my political views, so I think men and women should have equal rights and opportunity. Equal opportunity, however, doesn’t mean equal representation, and I think that striving for this condition is a net negative because it leads to intergender conflict that’s unproductive. In my opinion, the most important goals of feminism should be to reduce or strive to end gender-based inequalites of access and opportunity and end gender-based violence. This means fighting for both men and women’s interests to eliminate illegitimate forms of gender-based hierarchy in different parts of society, which might include reducing networking in c-suite jobs that’s often reserved for men (like dinner amongst male executives after work where they recommend each other for jobs, thereby excluding women) and increasing mental health resources, models of masculinity, and soft skills developments for men.

I also think that we should focus on improving infrastructure on a whole, meaning increasing general access to education and creating an environment more conducive to health (removing endocrine disrupters, banning food additives, etc)

silverhippo15 · 2024-10-23T00:19:30+00:00

A big joke. Akin to mass tantrums.

GGMcThroway · 2024-10-23T00:48:16+00:00

The world was built for men since time immemorial. Institutions involving the skills that men are better at (like sports in the military) are pedestalized while institutions that primarily utilize what women are better at don't even exist. It's only in the modern age that women have been treated as anything more than afterthoughts.

I think the biggest issues that feminism faces are so macro and abstract that'll take multiple generations to put even a chink in them..

driggsky · 2024-10-23T00:52:09+00:00

The ideas that feminism strives for is okay

However, a lot of feminist critiques I’ve read or heard about often were lacking nuance. Also feminism has a lot of ties to marxist thoughts and in general is anti capitalism (and I can understand why).

Often someone will say ‘society is harming women by X and heres an example’. They don’t propose solutions that actually incorporate people’s incentives. Feminists in practice often also will not acknowledge that women have power in certain domains.

In general, a lot of the people who espouse it demand things like equal outcomes, that women accrue more power, and that women are always victims. In the west, women are just as free as men but feminist still want to act like we live in a regressive society

I find that a lot of feminists and feminism in general argues against constraints that the universe applies to people in general. They simply point out that ‘women and men are oppressed under patriarchy because gender roles are bad’. Yet, they refuse the acknowledge that some gender roles might be the most optimal way to organize society given everyone has equal rights and everyone has free choice. I know some feminist literature mentions that patriarchy is natural which I agree with (sort of).

In general, the anti capitalist sentiment, the focus on problems (and not pragmatic solutions), the desire to act like women are always victims are a big turn off for me.

I understand capitalism and classism and many systems oppress women. But i need to see how they oppress women substantially MORE than men. I would also need to see pragmatic replacement systems. I never have seen a feminist convincingly argue to me that women in the West have it worse than men on average.

I believe there’s a 60% chance that men have it better than women (on average) and 40% chance that men don’t have it better. These are just intuitions but if you actually want to measure oppression then you start to see that its not so obvious that women have it worse. But i will concede that fundamentally to be a woman in today’s age is more confusing and difficult with respect to how one view’s themself, their agency, etc. I think some women find it harder to find a path of self fulfillment. However, i can acknowledge that its not exactly easy for men to do that either.

TLDR: feminism in practice by feminists usually underwhelms me. It lacks nuance in people’s common arguments. And feminists rarely try to give measured, quantitative arguments that are pragmatic given social constraints. However, as an academic discipline its fine I guess. It just has too many marxist and anti capitalist roots for my liking.

BeerNinjaEsq · 2024-10-23T01:06:56+00:00

I'm a big fan and supporter of feminism that advocates for equal policies and equal application of policies - not necessarily absolute equality.

For instance, the best person should be hired for a job regardless of gender... But if the job requirements favor one gender over the other (physical strength, for instance), we shouldn't use quotas to ensure 50% of those hired are women.

And feminism can help combat inequalities due to institutional tradition (old boys clubs keeping women on the outside, for instance)

WashImpressive8158 · 2024-10-23T01:34:07+00:00

Feminism was and is necessary but its leaders are simply political animals who take party orders, thus don’t stand of for women and girls on issues like makes injuring females in sports. It’s disgusting how politics overrides basic rights.

QuantityAcademic · 2024-10-23T02:52:20+00:00

I'm glad it exists and that it flourished, but I am not a feminist and I don't think I will ever be one because I don't think women can ever empathise with men.

QuantityAcademic · 2024-10-23T02:52:25+00:00

I'm glad it exists and that it flourished, but I am not a feminist and I don't think I will ever be one because I don't think women can ever empathise with men.

Netheral · 2024-10-23T03:08:39+00:00

I'm neutral towards it. Because while I agree with the core foundational tenets, I think "feminism" is a loaded term that carries, alongside all the positive things it does, a lot of negative methods and beliefs.

Please do not comment things about the more extreme side because again that’s not what I’m talking about, I only want comments on what you guys think about actual feminism

The problem here is that where do you draw the line for "actual" feminism? At some point you just have to accept that the dictionary definition just isn't applicable. Feminism isn't the same as egalitarianism. It contains it as a core tenet, but it's not all it is. It's a spectrum, and while one person considers f.i. abortion rights to fall under "actual feminism", another might argue that abortions are a crime against women. The best example is probably TERFs. Most sane feminists obviously think they aren't real feminists. But the TERFs disagree. Now you might scoff and think "but they aren't real feminists", and exclude them, but then, where is the line? Is it the TERF that only hates MTF? Is it the TERF that only hates FTM? Is it perhaps the radical feminist that will argue that any man caught manspreading should be castrated? How about the one that just thinks manspreading is a crime?

You can move the sign posts that define feminism however you like, but ultimately it teaches you to view the world through a very specific lens.

Gonna address the topics you listed:

gender wage gap

Should be eradicated, but I also think it's exaggerated and misconstrued to the point of being a dishonest talking point. The only reason anyone cares is because it's touted as being 3 to 4, but the truth is closer to 19:20 or even less. That gap still shouldn't exist, true, but the hyperbole ultimately hurts the cause.

abortion rights

I'm pro-choice.

women being treated as lesser than men

Is a problem, but I also believe that while women often get treated terribly by society, the feminist angle generally refuses to acknowledge the male equivalent of f.i. male disposability.

The deepest issue I have with "feminism", is its tendency to turn everything unto men. It robs women of their agency in society. Shields them from accountability even when terrible women don't deserve it. When shitty women vote against abortion rights f.e. you can't argue that it's always just "internalized misogyny". Some people are just inherently terrible and you can't excuse everything away as being caused by a "patriarchy".

Or rather, the forces of "patriarchy" that feminism claims to oppose, are often enabled by the methods utilized by modern feminism. It coddles women and infantilizes them. Teaches them simultaneously that they're victims and that they are never accountable for anything. Because men are actually to blame. Even with problematic systems that women partake in sustaining, it's always because "men" supposedly "trained" them. It's a problem because every discussion viewed through a feminist lens reduces every issue into "men are accountable" and then understandably men take issue and snap back, even when discussing issues that largely harm men.

And understand that I base my opinion of the "feminist lens" not only on my experience of it online and in the media, but also how it is taught in academia. Where it explicitly teaches to turn even the tiniest splinter of any text into a log in your eye. Consider f.i. "the male gaze". Sexualisation of women is taught to be strictly negative, and inherently problematic, reinforcing ideas of male sexuality and desire being inherently negative.

All this being said, I think feminism is still necessary. But only because the modern landscape of discourse is so polarized that nuance tends to get drowned out, but also because there's been pushback in the last few years (in no small part caused by misguided militant feminism) that needs to be accounted for.

ETA: Oh, and to add, one of the absolute craziest aspects of the whole culture war bullshit that feminism suffuses itself in, is the fact that it will argue "patriarchy" and "male privilege" instead of just rallying everyone, dropping the gender divisions and fighting the real issue behind like, 99% of issues that you can view through a feminist lens as being "the patriarchy", capitalism.

A lot of their issues with gaining more conclusive support is simply their own doing. Instead of calling a spade a spade - capitalism inherently leads to corruption - they'll argue that the underlying cause is patriarchy. Thereby alienating men and driving a divide that only further inhibits proper societal change.

Wage gap? Who cares about a wage gap if everyone is being supported by social welfare programs anyway? Most people only really care about "the hustle" because they want to live comfortably.

Pro-choice? If the profit incentive of a border-line slave-labour labour force didn't exist, I bet you it would take 2 generations to drive out the religious values that support pro-life once the corrupt politicians stop spouting corporate fear mongering in the bible belts.

Being treated as equals? Ain't no such thing under capitalism, for anyone making less money than the elites.

What I'm talking about is of course rather idyllic and utopian, there would still be shitty people with shitty ideals, but I bet you a good percentage of people that vote based on "hate" only harbour that hate because of an intentional divide caused by corrupt corporate political agents.

Sometimes feminism feels like psyop in the way it will bend over backwards to justify hate towards men, seemingly only to fuel derision.

thedarkracer · 2024-10-23T04:09:42+00:00

Tbh I have only heard the extreme side. I think it advocates for only female empowerment no matter what the cost.

AdEffective7894s · 2024-10-23T04:30:14+00:00

A necessary evil

Sholnufff · 2024-10-23T05:19:34+00:00

1st-early 3rd wave feminism was for equality and having a seat at the table. That I agree with and support.

Late 3rd to 5th wave feminists are miserable and gross. It went from being about equality to being about advantage over men choosing bears, disrespectful mansplaining.

The last chick tried to hit me with mansplaining over martial arts (she had 0, I have 15 years vested). I quickly asked her what she would do and counterpoint her 8 different ways so that she shut the phoque up and proceeded to learn and trust what I said. She is a hardcore feminist.

AtomicMonkeyTheFirst · 2024-10-23T11:35:06+00:00

Its a good thing....

buuuuuut

I think the problem with it is that it makes people define themselves primarily by their sex and makes men and women see each other as the 'other' and ultimately an enemy.

Like men have to agree with other men or they're being simps and not being bros, and women have to side with women otherwise they're being pickmeshas and betraying their sisters.

BootyBRGLR69 · 2024-10-23T12:07:00+00:00

I think the “normal feminists” need to realize that they have a responsibility to answer for the “crazy people who want men to not exist”

Because those people are more common than you’d care to admit, and men see that the “real feminists” do absolutely nothing about it, so it is ultimately understandable for men to see those people and begin to associate feminism with man-hating, and claims that the man-hating “isn’t real feminism” is a no true scotsman.

As for achieving gender equality, I think feminism as we know it has outlived its usefulness. It takes the very complex dynamics of gender and boils it down to “man oppressor woman oppressed”

Every single gender disparity is twisted by feminism to make women into the victim and men into evil, mustache twirling villains somehow

Examples:

For most of human society, men have been expected to go off and fight the wars while the women stayed home - the popular conception of this pair of gender roles is that it’s unfair to women that we underestimate them- never mind the fact that most of the men had to fight, whether or not they wanted to.

Feminists saw a situation where men, en masse, were being forced on the basis of sex to either kill or be killed and went “this is unfair to women”.

Feminism is ultimately the idea that gender equality can be achieved only by improving the societal standing of women. It either completely ignores the many gendered disadvantages men have, or gives them a half-assed “patriarchy hurts men too”, which is often just used as an excuse to victim-blame.

DelDivision · 2024-10-23T12:59:09+00:00

It along with alot of other leftist movements are in shambles cause they've let the crazies take over. But it's something that's always gonna be needed, especially when it comes to rights that had to be granted by the government.

kochIndustriesRussia · 2024-10-23T13:16:51+00:00

Let's pretend this type of feminism exists for a moment.... I have 5 daughters and that sounds great.

That said... I have observed that women tend to be happier, more optimistic, more playful in relationship.... when they are not required to work outside of the home for financial necessity of the family.

Also.... I've made a point of asking every single 21 to 28 year old woman who has started at my workplace in the last 7 or so years... and literally none of them want to be working. Without exception they all said that being at home, having babies and keeping house was quote "the dream".

My current gf retired herself at 38 from her 18 year career because I told her she could move in and we didn't need any extra money (she had 6 fig salary and lived in the bay area). I told her she could work if she wanted to... but I wasn't compelling her to. She quit so fast it was comical.

All I'm saying is...I think they want love and support, not equality.

philseven12 · 2024-10-23T14:19:07+00:00

In terms of modern feminism...

Women can't/aren't going to go to war and take what they want out of life.

Their power comes from being in a state of distress and being unsatisfied which causes men to want to fix whatever issue they may have.

Feminism is just an outward expression of women invoking their only bargaining chip of being perpetually unsatisfied so they will always need to be tended to.

Women's power comes from being upset, offended, and appearing unhappy.

If women acknowledged that their situation in western countries is quite comfortable compared to how bad it can be elsewhere then nothing else would get done for them.

They always need to keep their foot on the gas so to speak. There can never be a society in which everything is "okay" for women because if everything is satisfactory, they have no social leverage.

From the relationship to the macro, everything women want has to be framed in a way that makes it "wrong" for them to not have it. They'll never stand on saying they want something just because they want it.

ibookmarkeverything · 2024-10-23T15:14:28+00:00

I see it as a roleplay. We're role-playing equality to make the women feel equal to men, and then working extra hard to sweep all the inconsistencies and double standards under the rug. Today, that under-rug is full to the brim, and people are noticing which is fueling the gender wars. Some people want to stop role-playing entirely (my position), and others want to replace the old rug with a bigger rug. Redpill vs. bluepill, basically.

untamed-italian · 2024-10-23T16:19:27+00:00

As a red pill or purple pilled man, what do you think about feminism?

Started as a bunch of rich white women who wanted the same power as white rich men, and it never changed. Failed to protect women's reproductive rights and failed to respect men at all.

I’m not talking about the sort of feminism where some crazy people want men to not exist,

Ok, so you are no longer talking about feminism. You are talking about your fantasy ideal of what you want feminism to be.

This is what feminism is:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-cant-we-hate-men/2018/06/08/f1a3a8e0-6451-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html

Of course there are other, more positive aspects to the movement. But ignoring the immense, supersaturated toxicity is just lying to defend its abuses.

I only want comments on what you guys think about actual feminism.

Then you want my comment too.

Some topics of feminism include the gender wage gap,

Which has been proven to be a result of women's occupation preferences and not men's oppression.

abortion rights,

The same rights feminism failed to defend.

women being treated as lesser than men, etc

Lol, this isn't the 1950s anymore.

Maffioze · 2024-10-23T16:26:37+00:00

I’m talking about actual feminism where women strive for equality and don’t want to be treated like second class citizens.

Most people who want those things don't label themselves feminists and most people who do label themselves feminists don't actually want those things.

Feminists claim they want equality, most of them don't actually want that, they want female superiority, and they use and endless list of mental gymnastics to make it seem like they don't.

PossessionUnusual250 · 2024-10-23T16:32:45+00:00

I don’t mind healthy feminism in the least but the only thing that drives me potty is if I get scrutinised or accused of being a misogynist or red pilled when I am not, or someone insisting I call myself a feminist when I don’t feel comfortable. I want to be allowed to make mistakes and change my view on the spot - which is the right thing to do - rather than be punished.

I do not feel comfortable calling myself a feminist because it is a political term and it sounds like a can of worms. I also feel like it is a good way to judge if a woman will make a good and considerate partner to you or not if she accepts that you do support equality or empowerment, you just don’t want to use a label (for now).

I have read zero feminist books, to my knowledge. It is not a topic I am interested in. I don’t mind a woman who wants to talk to me about it, but I don’t think I have endless energy for it. I don’t like politics or philosophy that much.

I don’t like using labels for self description when I am not a different person before or after using the label. I don’t do anything to help women’s emancipation in my life. I’m not switched on. I have no problem with feminism, but do you see how I am not a feminist?

I just live life and I am always busy, so I don’t read up on things that don’t affect me much. I think it is up to women to have their women only speaker’s corner spaces and talk about the problems they face and ask for a change in circumstances, but how can I know, if I am not one? I am always willing to listen to the women I know personally. It is hard to listen to people online.

Double_Aught_Squat · 2024-10-23T17:12:11+00:00

I'm over it...

KentuckyCriedFlickin · 2024-10-23T18:34:04+00:00

Even if you are ignoring crazy misandrist comments, actual feminism still has its quite a bit of misandry involved with it. The entire movement has a lot of language and terminology that shifts any type of negative attention and blame from women onto men. Although I agree with some of the sentiments and idea that feminists talk about, I still disassociate with it.

Certain-Ganache-6213 · 2024-10-23T19:34:47+00:00

It’s a strategy to get more protection and free stuff from men when you nag long enough.

Women literally fight against an oppressor class while having every liberty in the world.

addings0 · 2024-10-23T22:08:01+00:00

Feminism was working fine 30 years ago. When women worked with men, to not be treated as 2nd class. Women agreed to pull more weight. ' Woke ' feminism is just women dismissing all men out of hand to avoid a social pressure, and reciprocate nothing in return. It's not the concept that's incorrect, it's peoples lack of follow through.

fundamentally_comfy · 2024-10-24T17:04:01+00:00

I dont really care what fat undesirable mentally ill women do or say

Kreeps_United · 2024-10-25T08:04:27+00:00

Please do not comment things about the more extreme side because again that’s not what I’m talking about, I only want comments on what you guys think about actual feminism. Some topics of feminism include the gender wage gap, abortion rights, women being treated as lesser than men, etc. So feel free to comment on any of these topics or more and state what you think about them or feminism as a whole.

My problem with this is that no one thinks they're extreme. I remember Obama's My Brother's Keeper initiative, a program to help Black (and later Hispanic) inner-city men. It was meant to address problems faced by a demographic more than others and feminists opposed it because it didn't address women. I wasn't just extreme Twitter feminists but prominent feminists like bell hooks, Gloria Steinem, and others. At that point, I decided I couldn't be a feminist because feminists often see helping men for the sake of helping men as taking away from women... and then claim it is only men who treat gender issues as a zero-sum game.

I support addressing the issues women face and I think feminism is good with that. But, I can't support the way it sees the issues men face as men doing it to themselves.

Tywinlol2 · 2024-10-22T20:53:16+00:00

Women don't strive for equality, they strive for sexist privileges. In the West they benefit from systemic discrimination in education, employment, justice system and so on. And feminism, or as I refer to it gender fascism, is used to justify all of this. The idea that women were ever oppressed is ludicrous and is as real as Protocols of Elders of Zion. Yes they did not enjoy same privileges/rights men did, but they didn't have same obligations ether, so all the crying about it is simply dishonest. Long story short it is a hateful ideology that is responsible for discrimination and dehumanization of half of humanity. There is no "good" feminism.

SadCahita · 2024-10-22T22:12:58+00:00

RP/BP. I'm not supporting it ever. Asking me to support a movement that antagonizes me from birth is stupid.

the crazy ones aren't actual feminists!

Simply wrong. Old school feminists wrote things like the SCUM. Valerie Solanas wasn't a 2010s "fake" feminist.

I'm talking about muh actual feminism

Sounds like the "it wasn't actual communism, those 3 million farmers who starved to death are wasted eggs for an omelette" point.

Either the good ones are a minority or they don't care enough for not letting the crazy ones gain social power, destroy public property, infiltrate the political parties and change laws where I live. Therefore, I still lose by supporting the good ones.

nightcall379 · 2024-10-22T22:36:52+00:00

don’t want to be treated like second class citizens

That is very ironic considering how the very moment women got power, and this society became matriarchal, they immediately started treating men as second class citizens

This system is rigged in favor of women, at the direct expense of men at every stage of human life: education workforce, family courts, criminal courts. healthcare, army, cultural humiliation, and demonization of men, etc.

Women always shamed men for the alleged injustices committed against them by the patriarchy(none of which is true btw), but the moment the power dynamic got flipped in their favor, women instantly started treating men as representatives of the untouchable caste

Which means 2 things

1 Women don't hold any moral high ground in this topic, because any "injustice" they accuse the patriarchy of committing against them, they committed tenfold against men during the last century of the western matriarchy

2 The completely self contradictory behavior of the matriarchy during the last century when it comes to the moral side of this story shows that all the matriarchal lectures about morality were lies, it was never about virtue, and always only about superiority

Which is exactly how men need to start thinking as well

The problem is that the majority of men are OofyDoofies willing to put up with the humiliation

Bubbly_Pension4020 · 2024-10-22T20:54:12+00:00

I think men have always had polarized privilege, where they’re both the rulers and the grunts of society. I don’t think that’s even changed all that much since feminism.

I also think most of the changes in gender roles in society are a response to technological changes. A lot of times are morality is just different to our ancestors because our technology is different. The birth control pill and the washing machine did more for women’s lib than Gloria Steinem or whoever else.

I don’t really look at political movements as good or evil. They’re all essentially attempts of groups to empower themselves inevitably at the expense of other groups.

Main-Tiger8593 · 2024-10-22T20:55:13+00:00

feminism vs mens rights activism

what does it take to be or become a feminist or mens rights activist

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-10-22T21:24:17+00:00

Think about it? Ain't nobody got time for that. Just another movement that got coopted and turned to trash.

TheRedPillRipper · 2024-10-22T23:00:04+00:00

gender wage gap

What company pays one person less specifically because of their gender?

It is illegal.

abortions rights

Prior to overturning Wade v Roe, women had significant rights to bodily autonomy. Reinstating it increases freedom of choice. Most would agree with this.

women being treated as lesser

Women enjoy the exact same rights and freedoms as men. Discrimination based on sexism, is illegal.

That’s not to say these things do not occur. They however are either illegal, no longer as socially prevalent as they previously were. This isn’t to discount Feminism isn’t necessary either. Countries like India, Iran, and numerous other countries that don’t enjoy similar levels of equality still need it. In a developed country however both women, and men, enjoy the same equality of opportunity. Which is more than fair.

Godspeed and good luck!

Neptune-Jnr · 2024-10-22T23:32:12+00:00

Real feminism is cool. Internet feminism is really great because it's entertaining to see the ridiculousness for my own amusement.

Neat_Combination2942 · 2024-10-22T23:33:02+00:00

I used to be okay with feminism because I thought it's just supposed to be a women's thing about equality, but the more I learned about feminist theory and the words of feminists, I began to view it as a hostile ideology that encourages unchecked misandry. I support fighting any injustice and discrimination against women, but I can't back feminism because I don't believe in the idea of the patriarchy. I also don't believe any actual gender pay gap is due to women being women and not due to other factors. Also, women under 30 outearn men under 30. I support abortion rights, but I also support financial abortion rights for both sexes.

yemma257 · 2024-10-22T23:55:13+00:00

[permanently deleted]

cardboard_pyramid · 2024-10-23T01:10:08+00:00

I support women’s right to vote and reproductive rights. I think women face many issues due to patriarchy such as domestic violence, sexual harassment, etc that still need to be addressed.

I also believe the majority of women are extremely manipulative and incapable of empathy

TheNattyJew · 2024-10-23T02:17:16+00:00

It has outlived its usefulness and has now morphed into a "kill all men" movement that wants to take away the rights of men. See title IX legislation where men do not get due process rights

Artistic_Speech_1965 · 2024-10-23T09:41:59+00:00

Well I think feminism was an eye opener to the condition of women I was unaware of. It brought many positive things for women and even for men. For instance it also opened the question about the definition of masculinity, the gender roles and what really create the basis of a human being and the human's rights

No-Rough-7390 · 2024-10-22T20:55:12+00:00

A massive shit test, that if you look bad at the old anti-suffragette materials you would be massively astounded at how correct their predictions were.

Edit: it seems as though people are taking this as a “repeal the 19th” post. It’s not.

It’s to show that given women want they want simply makes them even more miserable.

MannerNo7000 · 2024-10-22T21:19:42+00:00

Feminism has freed men from some societal expectations but also demeaned men in so many ways.

rustlerhuskyjeans · 2024-10-22T20:46:37+00:00

If you want to talk about feminism you’re generally not good looking and your arguments are tired. It’s a way for ugly women to make them feel important. Other than that, it’s fine.

I consider myself more of a meninist and every time I explain why to a woman she wants to drive a pitchfork through my brain. So I don’t really concern myself with feminism, because women don’t get a flying f about men’s problems.

siletntium · 2024-10-22T21:18:36+00:00

Men had to die in ww1 to vote women had to whine to the men who survived. Of course the majority of women were against suffrage because they understood that in any moral society power comes with responsibility.

Feminists achievement has been to convince people that it is OK for women (and only women) to have power without responsibility.

lastoflast67 · 2024-10-22T20:33:05+00:00

[permanently deleted]

plantsadnshit · 2024-10-23T01:25:58+00:00

I think it's great. There are plenty of countries in the world where women aren't equal to men - in fact, most women live in one of these places.

Though in the Western world, I can't see much reason to be feminist. There's barely a single thing in which women aren't equal to or better off than men.

BCRE8TVE · 2024-10-23T04:28:05+00:00

I’m talking about actual feminism where women strive for equality and don’t want to be treated like second class citizens.

I entirely support this kind of feminism.

I just wish it wasn't such a minuscule fraction of all the types of feminists and feminisms out there, because you can bet most feminist circles and feminists are chock full of double standards against men.

Please do not comment things about the more extreme side because again that’s not what I’m talking about, I only want comments on what you guys think about actual feminism.

There is no one "actual feminism". "Actual feminism" is whatever that particular feminist wants feminism to mean at that moment.

I wish most types of feminism and feminists weren't so extreme, we'd all be better off for it, but unfortunately we don't live in that ideal world. We live in the real world where there's a very strong and very popular side to feminism that is full of double standards and hates towards men, but the most important part is that this loud extremist minority never gets called out or faces pushback from the moderate feminists.

This allows misandry to grow effectively rampant and unchecked because misandrist don't care about the criticism of men, and "real" feminists hardly ever call out or act out against the man-hating feminists.

I agree on 90% of feminist issues when it comes to actual equality. I'm pro choice, pro sex Ed, pro free and effective contraceptives including IUDs, pro women's right to vote, pro women being paid the same wage for the same work, and more.

The problem is that feminism doesn't stop at equality, nor does it care about equality whenever its about men. Feminism treats equality like a one way street exclusively to the benefit of women.

I am 100% in support of the true egalitarian feminism, but given the feminist movement has effectively been taken over by misandrist who care about the benefits to and advancement of women, above and beyond equality, regardless of the cost to men, I cannot support feminism as it stands and cannot consider feminism an ally to men. It's not by accident that virtually any attempt to help men faces significant pushback from feminists and feminist groups, nor is it an accident that feminism erases male victims and female perpetrators, to continue pushing a narrative of female victimhood and male monstrosity.

Half of all domestic abuse victims are men, half of domestic abusers are women, and unidirectional female on male violence is more common than unidirectional male on female violence. Women are also more likely to throw the first punch.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233717660_Thirty_Years_of_Denying_the_Evidence_on_Gender_Symmetry_in_Partner_Violence_Implications_for_Prevention_and_Treatment

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey

Men are half the rape victims, and nearly half of all rapists are women.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4062022/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Boys are falling behind girls in school starting in 4th grade, and female teachers are likely to give a lower grade to boys than to girls for the same work.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2022/10/17/teachers-are-hard-wired-to-give-girls-better-grades-study-says/

60% of university students are female and increasing every year, and there are far more girls only and female only scholarships than there are for boys and men only, and yet feminist groups continue to push for there to be more women in STEM and academia, with largely no care whatsoever to increase male participation in female dominated fields.

But you'll basically never hear this from any feminist, because it goes so categorically against the feminist indoctrination of men being the oppressors and women being oppressed. Under that narrative it is categorically not possible for men to be systematically challenged or victimized, so feminism denies reality to continue upholding its dogma.

The more someone is a feminist the less likely they are to accept the above facts, and the less likely they are to have any empathy or sympathy for male victims. The less feminist they are, the more likely they are to care.

I am an egalitarian, and because I am an egalitarian I cannot support feminism as it stands today.

ArtifactFan65 · 2024-10-22T22:53:34+00:00

I'm fine with the concept but equality under the law has already been achieved in the West.

I don't agree that women need to always be paid the same as men. There are industries where women get paid more than men as well.

Managers can pay whatever they want as long as it's legal. Should we have regulations making sure unattractive people get paid the same as attractive people?

And the majority of the pay gap is a result of women working in low paying jobs and taking more time off to focus on child care anyway.

As for abortion rights men don't have the right to their bodies either. If their country is ever invaded they will be conscripted, see Ukraine and many other examples throughout history.

So women should still campaign for more rights if they want them but they don't have less than men.

TowerRough · 2024-10-22T23:14:25+00:00

I don't care much about it. Good for women i guess.

FromAuntToNiece · 2024-10-22T23:59:03+00:00

First wave feminism did not cause the male loneliness epidemic.

Second wave feminism did not cause the male loneliness epidemic.

Neither sex-positive third wave feminism nor the feminism of the Eastern Bloc caused the male loneliness epidemic. Both of these were sex-positive, by the way.

Sex-negative fourth wave feminism caused the male loneliness epidemic.

None of the previous waves challenged the notion that, while women don't owe men sex or romantic relationships, women as a whole do owe men unpaid emotional labor.

Men are entitled to a free trauma dumping outlet, whether that's within a romantic relationship or within an opposite-sex platonic friendship. This is the only way traumatized men can establish any sort of emotional intimacy. No, such "brutal honesty" is not "emotional abuse."

No amount of narcissism-related emotional supply as a response can address the male trauma dumping. Such supply is all about worshipping narcissists, while the supply that's really needed is comprehensive compassion. This is also why lots of women can be hypocritical when demanding empathy.

harmonica2 · 2024-10-23T01:10:39+00:00

I like actual feminism and it seems like feminism has made women even more sexual with men which of course is a good thing and men would like!

MC-Purp · 2024-10-23T01:13:56+00:00

I feel feminism I a good thing in general, there is absolutely no reason women shouldn’t have the same rights as men. Although, it definitely has its own problems.

ConstanteConstipatie · 2024-10-23T09:20:13+00:00

Looking at the current state of society I always thought it was a mistake. This pretty much confirmed my opinion on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feminists_by_religion

TinyFlamingo2147 · 2024-10-23T17:11:56+00:00

I'm very supportive of feminism. A lot of dudes don't actually understand feminism outside of their anti-feminist bubbles where they hyper focus on stupid people saying stupid things and paste that over the whole ideology. They think most feminists want men in prisons or to suffer because that's what their algorithms tell them to think.

All the shit men complain about on here that sucks for men, there are solutions for it found in feminism that actually work. They're just so far down the rabbit hole they refuse to solve anything and would rather lash out against women.

Title	As a red pill or purple pilled man, what do you think about feminism?
Author	LucidFeverDreams
Upvotes	22
Comments	392
Date	October 22, 2024 5:27 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1g9nsa0/as_a_red_pill_or_purple_pilled_man_what_do_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/as-a-red-pill-or-purple-pilled-man-what-do-you.1533026 https://theredarchive.com/post/1533026

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