If you struggle with dating, you are BELOW average

Proudvow · 2023-07-12T18:03:20+00:00

When people talk averages they're referring to looks, as in stuff you can actually see and rate.

maybe you grope them, maybe you talk shit.

Guaranteed this is not what's making the guys fail. Blue pillers always make the issue out to be sexual aggressiveness when the common cause of a guy's loneliness is him not being assertive enough.

ThisBoringLife · 2023-07-12T18:12:30+00:00

This pairs with a just world fallacy: Those who succeed are good, and those who struggle or fail are bad.

You can have someone hit the red flags and succeed, and it's not through great game or looks. The same idea how someone can be solid on paper and fail.

Of course, there's also the question of what is the success rate of "average"? Are we going to assume all average men are successful in the dating field?

Mobrowncheeks · 2023-07-12T16:57:59+00:00

Lmao, “ bro you are so painfully average, that your below average”

Average is average. Whether women like average or not is besides the point. A gainfully employed not balding average height and healthy weight 30 year old is above average country wide whether you like it or not .

Preme2 · 2023-07-12T17:26:33+00:00

Chad courts in his pool and dates in yours.

It’s just simple mathematics. Top men come down, plate 2-3 women and those women are removed from the average guys courting pool. Expand this over the entire country and you’ll get a difference in the tens of millions.

If you’re single it may not be because you’re below average. There is just more competition within that cohort compared to others.

PMmeareasontolive · 2023-07-12T17:56:23+00:00

no girls who call you when horny

C'mon, is that average, really? Do you really believe that?

Normal people have some foibles. They can be shy, introverted, insecure. To not have any of those things would make someone ABOVE AVERAGE or a psychopath. News flash.

2023-07-12T17:58:42+00:00

You’re not understanding hypergamy.

Average men are seen as below average by women - but that doesn’t mean they actually are.

In fact, the man you described may be ABOVE average, and still be looked at as below average by women because hypergamy dictates that she wants only the top 10%, which is way way above average.

TheLonerCoder · 2023-07-12T16:54:36+00:00

Agree with everything besides the dating app thing. I can't rem where I saw it but I saw a stat that said the average guy only gets around 6 matches a month and has a match rate of only 2.5%. Dating apps are skewed towards attractive and above average men. There should be no logical reason that women swipe right on only 7% of men, esp average women. Thus, even if you have stuff going for yourself, if you're not an attractive male, you'll struggle on dating apps. But for real life dating, I agree that if you're overall an average guy (height, career, looks, etc), you shouldn't be completely struggling if you're putting yourself out there to meet people.

ThrowAwayHuman122333 · 2023-07-12T17:09:57+00:00

Assuming that attraction is completely logical.

lolthankstinder · 2023-07-12T17:18:00+00:00

Above-average guys can still struggle to get attention from comparably desirable above-average girls while still getting attention from below average girls. For example, I was curious why I had thousands of likes on Tinder and never got any matches so I paid for a month to discover that we do indeed have an obesity epidemic.

Edit: Regarding the argument of “obese women are my looksmatch”, my standards when I was on the apps were based on my past relationship experience, not women’s extreme undervaluation of men on online dating.

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2023-07-12T17:52:22+00:00

I think this is true but just for men specifically. What a lot of guys don't realize is that with women there is no number rating system, it's either smash or pass. To be consistently in the smash group as a guy you have to be above average.

neverendingplush · 2023-07-13T09:10:21+00:00

If you can't get ass on a dating app, it's not gonna be easier in the real world. Y'all act as if it's an entirely different set of human beings on this app versus in person. In fact if you're an good looking dude, it's actually easier to date because you now have access to woman you wouldn't have even known existed.

There's no way I can organically have the ability to get in contact with 100 plus women especially in other cities and our various lived and schedules. Either tinder voila. It fucking sucks for a lot of dudes, but I've seen men's profiles from female friends and none of u are even trying so it seems. And stop mentioning your careers, and what car you drive. You wanna be the sexy cool guy but get mad when you wives dated you for your economic stability because that's the only things u offered that seemed appealing to her.

Practicing_Raccoon · 2023-07-12T17:23:18+00:00

Except the average man struggles with dating so this makes no sense. I guess it depends how you define "struggle with dating"

Hoopy223 · 2023-07-12T18:22:54+00:00

These threads always bring out the lulziest stuff from the hairy legged man hating feminist crowd and the doomer crowd.

Your hypothetical guy could be shy, a workaholic, maybe he has a horn growing out of his forehead who knows. Tons of reasons for someone to be single/not get matches online.

duenebula499 · 2023-07-12T17:04:32+00:00

I’d say he’s average, just not acceptable. The average guy is probably lonely, with maybe one or two decent prospects. If you’re 50th percentile overall you may be average, but you’re also not good enough

Magnito-was-right · 2023-07-12T16:58:49+00:00

One thing I want to point out about my ex who hasn't dated since me several years ago. He was so negative. Almost every comment he made was judgmental or complaining about something. All of my friends hated him (guys and girls both). He had a cute face, but nobody wants to be around someone so harsh.

Additional-Run-6026 · 2023-07-12T17:21:29+00:00

On paper, you are ok, but somehow, you struggle with dating; no girlfriend, no matches on dating apps, no female friends who want more, no girls who call you when horny - news flash - you are not average, you are below average.

I think you can have some of these, but still struggle (e.g. no matches - some women swipe right on you, but you don't swipe right on them. Some female friends want more - but you don't want more with them).

throwaway123456_7812 · 2023-07-12T22:23:16+00:00

I generally agree conceptually, but i would change some language. Men are either Chads or not, it’s mostly binary. Among the non-Chads, you can make it up to some degree by being extremely outgoing and social and running “game” (aka putting in 100x the effort Chad does for a fraction of the results), the Chads of course do whatever they want and get laid no matter what. Essentially for men, there is no such thing as “average”, you’re either unattractive or attractive, women who partner up with men they perceive as “average” is them settling for an unattractive man that is bringing other things to the table (one of them being commitment) although they will never illicit the same kind of physically attraction Chads can.

obviousredflag · 2023-07-12T17:04:42+00:00

Being average or above average is NOT the deciding factor for if you can get a relationship or not. People on all points of attractiveness-dimensions spectrum you mentioned are in relationships. People on all points on those spectrums struggle to find partners that fit them.

You can be way above average in height, fullness of hair, job, and still be unable to get into a relationship for having low self esteem, trauma, an asshole personality, social anxiety, commitment phobia, whathaveyou.

You can also be way below average and get with women easily. Granted, not women way above average on those dimensions, but unless you accept that men are also hypergamous, that shouldn't be a problem.

webernicke · 2023-07-12T17:08:35+00:00

This story is not common, but it does exist. Many men see themselves as average. And, on paper, they are average. They have jobs, not fat, decent social skills, but somehow they struggle with dating.

If this happens to you, the cruel pill to swallow is that you are BELOW average. Somewhere, something goes wrong about you.

There's a bit of circular reasoning here in that you are implicitly defining "average" as "doesn't struggle with dating."

Rather, consider that success with dating is a separate issue from how "average" a person is. In other words, is the "average on paper" man, as you have described him, a man that is positively attractive to women? I'd argue that he isn't, right away upon first glance, and that's before we go mining for the "something, somewhere that goes wrong about" him.

Do men like that end up in relationships by some combination of luck, timing, and effort, by hook or by crook? Sure. Is that a man that most women are actively looking to be with? No.

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throwawaylessons103 · 2023-07-12T16:55:48+00:00

By your definition of "struggle" I guess I would agree.

But people have different definitions of struggling, and the most common one is not being able to get dates/LTRs with the people you're interested in.

Tons of average and even above-average people can struggle finding compatible people, depending on their standards, location, situation, etc.

Accomplished_Pie_153 · 2023-07-12T17:13:44+00:00

average is the toughest spot to be in. most people are average and there's the most options here. if you're below average, someone knows a below average girl and tries to pair you up. There's no choice to make. there's literally movie scenes about this. "I have a shy cousin who also loves Star Wars."

RealAmericanWeasel · 2023-07-12T17:37:59+00:00

I don’t think people who say they’re average mean they’re actually dead center on the curve. It’s shorthand for a regular guy, indistinguishable from other guys who may or may not have had such poor luck.

Particular_Trade6308 · 2023-07-12T18:14:17+00:00

40% of the male population is non-white, so between them and the short white guys, your OP essentially suggests that 70% of the male population is below average, which makes no sense.

The general issue with defining “below average” as “can’t get women” is that it doesn’t account for the possibility that dating can become more competitive or more difficult, despite a growing number of US adults saying exactly that in the latest Pew Survey.

So two possibilities, dating is getting harder, or everyone is becoming more “below average.” The latter is impossible so we can rule it out.

NittyGrittyDiscutant · 2023-07-12T18:33:17+00:00

you, sir, r genius /s

PrinceArchie · 2023-07-12T19:14:46+00:00

Ok so a few things everything you listed was an average guy. I’d imagine this guy you described COULD find a relationship of some sort even if a long distance one.

Secondly if he can’t then perhaps he struggles exceptionally in one area that is stunting them from interaction with women. Most likely being shy or giving off signals of disinterest. Worst case scenario they are unkept and their hygiene is bad but if that’s you then you’d immediately know you were lacking.

Lastly I think you jump to extreme negative conclusions to try to quantify your claim that a guy can’t find a date or partner. Assuming someone probably leers, gropes, harasses verbally or implying they regularly use misogynistic language as likely indicators they cannot find a partner is making a mountain out of a mole hill. You don’t have to be the worst guy in the world to not find success or find what you’re looking for.

Lots of guys are simply uncomfortable around women in the current dating environment. Many places where people may meet women in their circles such as school or work is incredibly risky to engage in dating or flirtatious behavior. You risk a lot as a guy if there is even a minor misunderstanding over something that’s honestly benign.

Courting in night life spaces isn’t much better aside from not being held under imminent scrutiny by a supervisor or HR for a slight misunderstanding. The screw ups here are often brushed off quite easily in soft rejections. But if you don’t catch her eye well you aren’t really going to get anywhere unless you go out of your way to piss away $50 for the night on drinks and whatever else. The average guy trying to pick up women in a club is likely striking out 9/10. Striking up a conversation isn’t hard and you might get a number very rarely are you taking someone home though.

Anyway I digress, point is average guys are more likely to struggle now simply due to the nature of modern dating etiquette. There’s a plethora of options for ladies out there who might want to experiment or explore. Hooking up, cheating, alternative sex life styles, etc in my personal experience haven’t been that uncommon and a big reason why I never went through with 4 of the 7 dating/relationship opportunities afforded to me. It’s also time consuming and mentally draining. Depends how bad you want it I guess, but yeah. If you’re down for just ANYTHING it probably isn’t hard to find but most people have some degree of standards. I’ve had plenty more opportunities with women who simply didn’t meet my looks thresholds.

tvear · 2023-07-12T20:10:06+00:00

Nope, I'm above average in looks, income, and status. When I was younger I struggled because I was socially anxious and had no game. When I fixed that my dating life changed completely.

DoinIt989 · 2023-07-12T20:55:15+00:00

Not everyone who struggles with dating is "below average". Lots of people either

Have trouble meeting people in their league due to location, commitments, etc
They have mental hangups that make dating hard. They might be attractive but super anxious. Or they can get dates, but they have issues that prevent those dates from turning into serious relationships

And tbh I know guys who are pretty "average" - 5'9", overweight, 40-something, they make 70-80k a year, not particularly interesting, but they do OK in dating. Dating issues are usually more location or mental than pure "attractiveness".

You are a certified fire inspector in Omaha, NE, you are 5'9'', not fat, in your early 30s, white, and not bald

Objectively, this guy you describe is average. His dating success totally depends on things like social skills, anxiety/inhibition, etc. He is average, but average guys still have a wide range of success in dating depending on other factors.

mystoryhere12 · 2023-07-12T21:36:44+00:00

Except I’m 6 foot 3, 215 lb at 11% body fat, full set of hair, early 30s, white, make six figures and still struggle quite a bit online and in real life even though face is above average. Standards are through the roof for us men.

sweetbrown89 · 2023-07-12T22:04:56+00:00

Close, but no

Has little to do with being below average and more to do with “not being well above average”

NigroqueSimillima · 2023-07-12T22:42:49+00:00

Nah, they could just not get out much, or they could be in a bad area demographics wise.

A handsome black doctor moves to a small town, where most of the attractive women are locked up by age 24, and many their parents would disown them for dating dating a black man, and the town has more men then women anyways because of the mixture of industries. It wouldn't be a surprise if mr doctor isn't doing well.

Billsandasonom · 2023-07-12T22:48:54+00:00

Depends on what you mean by "below average". The biggest and most common reason I see for men who struggle with dating is garbage social skills and extreme social awkwardness. This will kill any mood or vibe instantly, especially in this day and age where women have tons of options. I see this happen to goodlooking men all the time. There's no reason for most women to be okay with an awkward looker when there are plenty of lookers who are well-adjusted socially to choose from.

FutureBannedAccount2 · 2023-07-12T23:36:59+00:00

That's not really how averages work though. If MANY men suffer with this while few men have no issues, then the men struggling would be within the average.

Right-Collection-592 · 2023-07-12T17:04:03+00:00

Too reductive. Plenty of average men struggle with dating because they have high expectations/are too picky. Same with women.

AidsVictim · 2023-07-12T17:02:50+00:00

The average guy is not really doing that much better. Maybe he has a couple of exes or a girlfriend where both are settling. Most people struggle and you're talking about a significant number of men who basically have no prospects or current partner.

harmonica2 · 2023-07-12T18:43:22+00:00

What if you use the struggle with dating a lot but got a lot better from reading PUA books?

iGetBuckets3 · 2023-07-12T22:19:47+00:00

74% of americans are overweight. If you are not overweight, you are already above average.

Crafty_Letter_1719 · 2023-07-12T17:39:26+00:00

It doesn’t matter if you are “above average” or “below average”, the only people who struggle with dating( from every level of objective attractiveness) are those whose relationship expectations and standards are unrealistic.

FigSubstantial2175 · 2023-07-16T17:30:42+00:00

5'9 is average male height is USA
not being overweight is much above average in USA xD
not balding is probably above average as well, but I have no data here

So you're refuting your own claim. The man you came up with IS above average and he's struggling. Your point is wrong.

stats135 · 2023-07-12T17:33:10+00:00

Everyone, literally everyone, is going to be above average in somethings and below average in others.

For some people, it just so happens the one thing they are below average on affects their dating life. This does not make them below average as a whole. They simply didn't know what women prioritizes and made the mistake of focusing on Beta qualities instead of Alpha ones.

Rhinosaur666 · 2023-07-12T17:37:12+00:00

So let me get this straight. "I created a dating profile, now I'm all out of ideas"??? Is this your stance?

If you are a man you cannot sit around idly and hope a beautiful naked woman will materialize in your bedroom. You need to go out there and get all the pussy you want.

Anti_Thing · 2023-07-12T17:41:18+00:00

In some cases, struggling with dating can simply be from having very high standards. (In my case, I think I really am below-average, though, due to my learning disability).

WowYouMustBeJoking · 2023-07-12T18:55:57+00:00

Define average or it's pointless to discuss. So far, the guy you described is definitely above or about average (average man would be fat and balding at that age) unless his face is super ugly (but then he would know and wouldn't be surprised). Yet, no one would be surprised that some guys like that struggle. So your own example would disprove your title.

mix_taken · 2023-07-12T19:00:13+00:00

Ur below average cuz u got no rizz. No game. Not because of how u stare at women lol.

BeneficialRush4171 · 2023-07-12T19:10:59+00:00

There was a point where I thought this but later realized my untreated depression and the mentality it directly lead to held me back a lot.

Embarrassed_Work4065 · 2023-07-12T20:07:34+00:00

If you’re groping women, then that’s definitely the problem.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2023-07-12T20:26:21+00:00

the mistake is not to think you are average, but to think "average" is some metric that matters

siempreloco31 · 2023-07-12T21:05:47+00:00

I think struggling with dating might be the most average thing in the world tbh

Green-Quantity1032 · 2023-07-12T21:14:56+00:00

Below average on what?

Some people struggle on dating cuz they're anxious as fuck without having anything else wrong with them

raldabos · 2023-07-12T21:29:20+00:00

Maybe it's the way you stare at women, the way you speak, maybe you grope them, maybe you talk shit.

Oh yes, more just-world falacy, you need to be a decent men to get into a relationships, that's why pedophiles, rapist, abusers and killers are never in relationships.

SoulBadguy0408 · 2023-07-12T22:22:27+00:00

I'd say what you describe sounds statistically pretty average, although I guess that's not really what people mean when they say average

DzejSiDi · 2023-07-12T22:50:48+00:00

Situation is almost the same with a product on commodity market. If your product doesn't sell well it doesn't mean it's "below average". It could be bad advertisement, bad pricing, bad local market for such product, super heavy competition and so on.

A guy that is not very socialising outsides his circles, if he leaves his comfort zone or get introduced to different social circles that includes women and he suddenly have some success in dating magically goes from "below average" to "average"? Or even higher? No, he is just more visible now on a sexual market now with some potential buyers.

That's why a 4/10 guys with suitable, ongoing, aggressively "selling yourself" character and lifestyle can slay and 6/10 can be an incel/mentalcel.

Former_Molasses_7073 · 2023-07-12T23:32:27+00:00

You have to define what does struggle as dating mean , and what is a reasonable standard.

Omaha, NE, you are 5'9'', not fat, in your early 30s, white, and not bald.

Nebraska is over 61% obese . So if a person who is not even fat is struggling in Nebraska, then they are not below average, they are above average but competing amongst a smaller dating pool.

Hot-Law2682 · 2023-07-13T02:18:19+00:00

Because the average dude has at least some relationship success in their life anyone with no success is below average in terms of amount of dating success.

But what does that mean in terms of their overall value? Yeah generally as people get older they want partners with more experience. So yes, your overall value as a partner can partially depend on your past experience.

But thats not nearly everything. Career, personality, physique, hobbies, all play a huge role.

And what you might say is "well if someone was successful in all those things they would have found a partner" but that just isn't true. There is a huge opportunity and compatibility aspect to dating and its possible to just not click with anyone around you or be in a place without many singles your age.

So you can be a person who has above average value as a partner while still being chronically single. However, I would say within a few years of looking that person would very likely be able to find a partner.

SaintVersace · 2023-07-13T02:19:45+00:00

if you're not butt ugly sure

13choppedup2chopped · 2023-07-13T02:30:49+00:00

I think is true but only because I think men compare their success to the most successful guys they know. The guys who had a few partners freshman year while their roommate fucked the entire class, feel below average. But they are average. If women find you attractive, they are not shy about getting to be around you. They find reasons to be around you. The men having average to above average sex lives are not approaching 100% of the time. Below average guys are told the problem is they don’t interact or approach enough. But if you ever lived with or have been an above average man, you’ll know women are often approaching you, many times aggressively. Even average guys get the “green light” from time to time.

Mediocre_Track9887 · 2023-07-13T06:40:02+00:00

You say you're a 38-year old virgin. I think that you're projecting. Maybe you are the one who is below average, and you can't acknowledge that someone has a different experience than you.

I never understood people who think that average and above-average people can't struggle with dating. The people who assume that often aren't all that (in my experience). Sometimes, the circumstances, timing and people around you aren't right for average and above-average folks. Life can be random.

Responsible_Ice3149 · 2023-07-13T08:37:36+00:00

I struggled a lot , and one cope of me was thinking that I am just too ugly...

But the real reasons are more likely

Being too picky, low selfesteem, downward spiral from getting older and older and lacking experience, and I am not kidding "bad luck" plays a role , too.

I am tall, have good income, lots of friends, no problem to be social ( in general most people i interact with like me or are at worst indifferent).

MOProG2 · 2023-07-13T09:19:20+00:00

I'd say it's psychological not really the reasons youblisted

HighestTierMaslow · 2023-07-13T16:35:05+00:00

This can be true but it REALLY doesnt account for these things:

1) Location. HUGE ONE especially if you are not congruent with where you live you are at a massive disadvantage.

2) How many women they have dated? Dating is a numbers game. My male friends lamenting they met 5 girls off of OLD apps over the span of 2 years and think they will be alone forever...I laugh, thats barely anything in terms of people you have to go through to find a mutually beneficial relationship.

3) Ties into the last one...what is their social life like? Those who are extroverted with a good social life have more options.

4) Baggage/their own expectations of women/their type of woman- although that does tie into something wrong with them...

TheMedsPeds · 2023-07-14T04:48:57+00:00

I think it depends on what struggling is. I think there are a decent amount of guys that aren't going on dates quite often. But the guys who have like year gaps between dates? 100% agree, something is wrong with them. Maybe they have a squeaky voice, maybe they have chronic bad breath. There has got to be something they are leaving out. I just don't believe there is a cluster of careered, non-obese men, that aren't midgets, don't smell like B/O, have an apartment, a working vehicle and are socially skilled enough to have a handful of friends and outside of the home hobbied interests that CANNOT get a date at all for YEARS. I have a local group on FB that I follow where women post pictures of men on dating apps and ask if anyone knows about red flags because they have been dating them for awhile. So many ugly dudes. So many dudes that are homeless and jump from chick to chick to crash at their place. Women don't like being single. They will settle for a lot of normal, doofas ass dudes. I refuse to believe only 6'0 jacked Chads are the only dudes getting laid.

I personally think a lot of these average dudes standards are just too high. I see men watching stuff like FnF and complaining that they aren't getting "average modern women" like the women who go on that show. I can tell you right there, they are shooting too high. These men are looking right past the single 26-year-old, dental receptionist who is 15 lbs over weight and has her dirty blond hair in a bun, with no make up, and scrubs on in front of them at Wal-mart. Then go home and then brood that the OF models only want Chad after hate watching some street interviews or RP podcasts where hot chicks talk about wanting dudes more than 100k.

LiftedBakery777 · 2023-07-14T07:49:21+00:00

I have seen this countless times.

Im a male and i constantly come across just average good looking men and think "why hasn't a girl snagged this dude up"

They aren't sexy beast with ripping muscles and sports cars.

But your average guy with a nice job. Okay car. And with common sense.

I would honestly say i am below average. Just being honest with myself.

I know im a handsome guy, i can get anyone to laugh. But my finances and body arent up to par.

So when i meet men just a few steps head of me and still struggle in the dating market I'm like wtf?!?!

EsotericRonin · 2023-07-14T13:11:59+00:00

Most men are below average. This is a fact.

noise__floor · 2023-07-14T21:05:27+00:00

Yea I know. I’m an EE, make almost six figures in my mid twenties. It’s because I’m fucking ugly

caption291 · 2023-07-15T07:14:41+00:00

"If you aren't in the top 20% you're in the bottom 20%"

Title	If you struggle with dating, you are BELOW average
Author	Secure1Ad1991
Upvotes	75
Comments	221
Date	July 12, 2023 4:42 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/14xtriq/if_you_struggle_with_dating_you_are_below_average/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-you-struggle-with-dating-you-are-below-average.1225084 https://theredarchive.com/post/1225084

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