Women not granting men sexual access is not a “mens issue”

Kilo-Alpha47920 · 2025-05-02T12:10:01+00:00

This always gets framed incredibly poorly by both red pill men and feminist women. There is an issue in the western 2020s world, where a lot of men are struggling to find relationships. Anecdotally women I’ve spoken to also have the same problem, but in manifests more in unsatisfactory relationships, and failure to find long term fulfilling relationships.

Red pill men will sometimes insinuate that women “owe them sex”, by suggesting that more women should be more open to relationships with men they don’t like, or will put in more blunt terms. Women will sometimes rightfully respond that women don’t owe men sex or relationships. Fair enough.. obviously.

But there’s still a problem here that people aren’t finding fulfilling relationships. Particularly men aren’t finding fulfilling relationships at all. Which is a men’s problem. People are having children later, divorcing more often, and more and more people are alone. Fatherlessness is a major problem. Aging populations and birth rate decline is a legitimate issue. All these problems are created by both men and women together and stems in some ways from relationship trends, probably.

So on that front this isn’t a men’s issue as you say, it’s a societal issue for everyone.

Saying your “ability to attract a woman is down to you” is only true on a micro Individual scale. Standards, gender norms, relationship expectations are all established by men and women together as a society and community. And they have been subject to change for millennia. Dating apps influence how men and women pick each other, night clubs influence how men and women pick each other, going to a mixed gender workplace influences how relationships are formed. Where you live, how you live your life, who you interact with and where you go impacts how relationships are formed.

Yes on an individual scale, it is entirely your responsibility to find a relationship and you cannot expect others to do it for you.

But, it’s perfectly reasonable for both genders to discuss this together on a macro level. And there’s nothing wrong with men complaining about how some women choose relationships and wishing it was different. The same goes vice versa. People vent.

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2025-05-02T14:59:58+00:00

Someone doesn't have to be being actively oppressed by someone else to be experiencing an "issue".

Loneliness is an issue for a lot of young people, even though no-one is physically forcing them to isolate (anymore).

Kreeps_United · 2025-05-02T15:21:59+00:00

Can we say this:

Women don't owe sex or relationships to men they find undesirable anymore than men owe sex or relationships to women they find undesirable. But anyone is allowed to pursue a relationship and entitled to feel bad if they fail to find one.

waffleznstuff30 · 2025-05-02T13:28:25+00:00

I think men frame it as a men's issue because their worth as men is tied to sex. And their self worth is reflected in the external factors like attention and validation from women. Which can negatively effect their mental health and lead to the lunatics running around being violent because they didn't touch a boob. I think separating men's worth from sex would be a good start.

Which is a product of socialization. I think giving men especially men who may not be successful with women some sort of outlet and building their self worth. Would be so beneficial to them. We desperately lack community and shared goals in most western societies.

DopeAFjknotreally · 2025-05-02T16:33:37+00:00

I’d say it’s a men’s issue, but it’s also not women’s responsibility to fix it. Empathy isn’t owed, either, but could help make the climate better for everybody (this goes both ways - men need to be more empathetic towards what women go through as well)

MongoBobalossus · 2025-05-02T10:39:40+00:00

Nobody is owed sex from anybody else. Full stop.

UnMikstakeable · 2025-05-02T14:34:45+00:00

While of course I agree with you, the problem I have is nobody is consistent with this attitude in other areas of life, and doubly so women.

For instance when women are under-represented in positions of power or high-paying jobs, women don't have the same "pull yourself by your bootstraps" attitude. No one goes "whatever income or position you attain is entirely up to you" or "you have ownership over the wealth and power you accumulate in this world". When that happens its suddenly everyone else's fault BUT the individual women, its in fact society that is unfair, broken and oppressive and we need to change it.

AntonioSLodico · 2025-05-02T14:36:08+00:00

It is a mens issue, in that many men feel unloved and rejected by women, and also by other men and by society. And when they turn to look for answers and support, they find some toxic ass pipines waiting for them. And then they become worse humans who get stuck in a toxic cycle. And society is worse for it. And those pipelines aren't just parts of the manosphere, it's fentanyl, gangs, political extremist groups, and more.

That is a mens issue, because these pipelines are pointed at men, and men are more vulnerable to them, and it is harmful to society. It is up to us men to help build and support alternatives to those pipelines and break the cycles. And to reshape society so men feel more loved, less rejected, and more supported. Because if we were, I truly believe that hardly any mens self esteem and egos would depend on getting their dicks wet.

BobtheArcher2018 · 2025-05-02T15:43:56+00:00

I have no opinion about labeling it a men's issue or not. But it IS a social issue. It's not just about sex, or even primarily about sex, from a civilizational perspective. Sex is typically definitive of an intimate, romantic relationship that can form the nucleus of a family for having and raising children. Men and women are both socialized in ultimately beneficial ways by being in such relationships.

I have no idea if we are testing the levels where this can become a serious issue to society, or whether we ever will. I'm just saying it is NOT just an individual issue. Society has a stake in mating and always has.

ZoneLow6872 · 2025-05-02T13:39:59+00:00

YES! This is the essence of the problem that certain men seem to misunderstand: wanting to be left alone is NOT an attack on you, it's freedom for US.

TreeSweden · 2025-05-02T12:58:23+00:00

It may be a man's issue. Many people think it's a woman's issue when women, for example, fail to orgasm during sex.

Outside_Memory5703 · 2025-05-02T14:35:27+00:00

I’m told by some men that not fucking or being attracted to them is treating them as subhuman

Agile_Vanilla_1802 · 2025-05-02T11:38:44+00:00

Did i miss something? I dont understand. Is this referring to a specific post?

AsturaeConiecto · 2025-05-02T13:19:55+00:00

society isn't applying any oppression

Was that also your opinion of society before 1900 or even 1950 regarding women? Back then society wasn't allowing women to be independent from men.

Nowadays, society in most countries is still not allowing men to be independent from women. In my country, men cannot 1) pay for prostitutes 2) buy the services of a surrogate mother 3) adopt. Not that a lot of men would like to adopt on their own, but technically you can't have your anything that women usually provide within a relationship, without a relationship.

Back then, women couldn't get money and material confort without being paired with a man. Nowadays, women can still gain financial benefits from pairing with a man OR/ANd work.

Men do not have this sort of options, but also they're competing against women for jobs and money, and are supposed to earn equal or more than women to be attractive to them. That's playing doubly in their defavor.

Obviously I'm in favor of personal freedom. So I'm questioning why are things like prostitution so commonly forbidden and why is society so heavily inclined to still furthermore help women.

And obviously again, it wouldn't solve the problem, but it would be a good start. Even in countries where prostitution is allowed, it's still heavily frowned upon and young men who are needing it the most are the ones least likely to seek it.

All that to say, it's easy to see how society is shifted in favor of women and female incentives, and that historically has been enough to consider this as oppression.

Hefty-Lobster-5513 · 2025-05-02T16:56:15+00:00

Not really an issue but a biological reality. The more freedom women get (not saying they don’t deserve it or we’ll be better off without it) the more they can exercise their biological/lack of drive for sex compared to men. Also due to our current economic times combined with the freedom and independence women experience today, men this generation have to work harder than their forefathers to attract the same caliber of women. Social media and online dating also benefitting women’s right to choose since they are not limited to their hometown anymore. It’s rough, but it’s reality. Traveling helps since the culture around dating and economic standards are different in other countries.

Several_Industry_754 · 2025-05-02T18:43:57+00:00

Consider the classical adage:

Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins.

This involves two freedoms: 1. You are free to swing your arms around. 2. Another person is free to go through life without getting hit in the face.

As a society we have decided that in this case, because of the negative impact of getting hit, we will protect the second freedom over the first. And so if I swing my arms around and hit someone else, I will be charged with battery.

Because of this, society has asserted control over my actions, I cannot freely swing my arms around. Because if I did, there would be consequences to others.

Now for your case:

Women are not restricting you (meaning controlling you) from relationships. They just aren’t dating you out of their free will. Their freedom is not impeding on yours since they are not controlling you.

Right, all people in the US have right of association (this is protected from government interference by the 1st amendment), meaning they can elect to associate with (aka interact or be known to interact with, or in this case, date) who they want to, and not with others they don’t want to.

This applies to both sides and in both directions though! I can choose who I associate with, and I can choose who I don’t associate with.

However, if I choose to associate with you, and you choose to not associate with me, one of our rights/freedoms will be violated.

Either I will not get to associate with you as I want, or you will associate with me, which you do not want.

In either case, someone’s right to choose their associations is restricted.

We, as a society, have decided to generally prefer to protect the right of the individual that does not want to associate in this case, or we have set that expectation.

That doesn’t mean that we are not restricting someone’s freedom, we totally are.

And let’s be clear, I personally don’t think you should have to associate with me if you don’t want to. I’m just saying that if you did so, my freedoms would be restricted by that choice.

Dertross · 2025-05-02T19:21:58+00:00

Women nor society are applying any oppression, they are not stealing or forcing you to do anything nor are they trying to control you or your body.

This is simply not true. A sizable amount of government welfare is the state subsidizing women's personal reproductive decisions.

It's literally just women leaving you alone and wanting you to leave them allne.

They want to be left alone, until a criminal accosts them then suddenly it's every man's in the vicinity's responsibility to help them

It's not a thing that's being DONE to men.

It is a decision only taken because of the socioeconomic conditions that insulate them from the consequences of their social and political decision-making.

champion_azure · 2025-05-02T12:21:27+00:00

"Your ability to attract a mate is entirely down to you. Its esch individual man who has ownership over it and responsibility for changing it simply because there IS not other answer to it."

This reads like something a bullying gym teacher wrote. Ability.. not everyone has that ability, or will ever have that ability. All you're doing here is trying to picking on people, you're not helping anyone, but I suppose, if it makes you feel superior, have at it.

Elegant_Brick5603 · 2025-05-02T15:30:23+00:00

Singlism is a thing. If women overwhelming have access to sex more than men, they have privilege. So check your privilege.

WanabeInflatable · 2025-05-02T11:12:54+00:00

There are lots of real discrimination of men. Incels are acting like useful idiots to discredit mens rights

Findol272 · 2025-05-02T13:53:33+00:00

This is the equivalent of someone complaining about purchasing power and the conversation always being derailed by some people saying:

"Nobody owes you any food, just work for your food! Or go forage or start your own farm with your non food-havers"

"People used to work 80h a week for gruel, starvers feel so entitled to proper nutrition nowadays. You're lucky if you ever able to even eat meat once!"

These conversations always miss the point. They take the personal to be societal and bring the societal to the personal in ways that make no sense and everybody misses the point.

AreOut · 2025-05-02T13:39:53+00:00

Absolutely, but women getting pumped&dumped by Chads is also not a mens issue so please don't cry about that everywhere.

Lightinthebottle7 · 2025-05-02T11:49:32+00:00

A disturbing amount of people don't understand consent and personal responsibility here. Though, given what nonsense many here subscribe to, it is not that shocking.

John_Oakman · 2025-05-02T13:40:47+00:00

Yes your reasoning is based upon the moral virtues as dictated by society but: [threats of violence by those who are effectively outside of society and seek to overthrow said society in which they feel that they are not benefitting from it].

There are times when one needs to acknowledge that there are irreconcilable differences and force is the only comprehensible language left.

OppositeBeautiful601 · 2025-05-02T17:03:57+00:00

The same ole men just want sex and nothing else. Very dehumanizing. That's the issue.

ColbyXXXX · 2025-05-02T16:46:54+00:00

The strange thing is avoiding incels will not make the abuse rates go down because incels aren’t the people harming women they date.

LoudPiece6914 · 2025-05-02T11:47:05+00:00

It’s an issue because men make it an issue and turn to movements that implement destructive policies that hurt everyone. We just need to accept that men want to have sex. I think it’s better to legalize sex work and push for policies that help men live a life of economic dignity. Which, in tern,will help everyone including men. But if we try to ignore this or make it an individual problem. It won’t solve anything and we will have other worst problems. We just need to accept men not having sex is a problem because even if you don’t agree, it’s a real problem. Men will make it a problem, which makes it a problem.

FateMeetsLuck · 2025-05-02T12:44:02+00:00

This needs to be upvoted into the Reddit front page or algorithm or whatever

Jello_Vivid · 2025-05-02T11:22:53+00:00

I completely agree that men are not owed sex but what does become a male issue is the loneliness around that lack of success as it's very hard even for both sexes. I think men just need better role models and I can understand why you don't personally care about it but it doesn't mean as a society we should just leave them to rot. We should be creating better social systems to help these people who feel disenfranchised.

RayAP19 · 2025-05-02T11:49:27+00:00

This feels like an issue of conflating women choosing partners for LTRs and women choosing partners for sex.

Most men's issue in this context is that women claim to want certain qualities in men, but don't prioritize those qualities when choosing who to date.

Is it fair to say that a woman has to choose better men that fit her own description of what she wants? No.

Is it fair to call her out as a hypocrite/liar? Probably.

Barely-moral · 2025-05-02T11:16:22+00:00

Employers not granting insert minority here a job is not a “insert minority here issue”

Employers ñ nor society are applying any oppression, they are not stealing or forcing you to do anything nor are they trying to control you or your body.

It's literally just employers leaving you alone and wanting you to leave them allne. That's it. That's the "issue"

It's not a thing that's being DONE to insert minority here. If anything it's the opposite.

Your ability to attract an employer is entirely down to you. Its esch individual insert minority herewho has ownership over it and responsibility for changing it simply because there IS not other answer to it.

username_6916 · 2025-05-02T15:12:19+00:00

Gays not being able to seek sexual partners for fear of homophobic reactions from society isn't oppression either by that definition. It's literally just people leaving them alone and wanting them to leave you alone too. That's it, that's the "issue".

jazzmaster1992 · 2025-05-02T10:42:46+00:00

I don't disagree, but if there is an alarming number of people who can't get relationships, maybe something somewhere went wrong. Even down to an individual level, it's not always his "fault" that he was born in circumstances that make attracting someone more difficult. It is, however, his responsibility.

captaindestucto · 2025-05-02T11:01:03+00:00

Acknowledging the downstream consequences of dating/sex droughts and widespread long-term loneliness isn't arguing for state-mandated girlfriends. Any issue primarily affecting one gender is a gender issue. There don't have to be authoritarian solutions to that in order to acknowledge it.

How many op-ed pieces do we read these days about lonely middle-aged women who can't find 'viable' men to pair with?

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FearlessSea4270 · 2025-05-02T11:35:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

TreeSweden · 2025-05-02T13:01:52+00:00

It is then about men not oppressing women, that women have not lost anything, and that it is not about men wanting to control women's bodies if it is women who should adapt to men

TreeSweden · 2025-05-02T14:02:08+00:00

"It's literally just women leaving you alone and wanting you to leave them allne.That's it. That's the "issue"

Many women would probably think it would be good if different men managed to change to their demands. The fact that women want to leave different men alone may be because they have already had access to what they want thanks to being a woman.

ElkInteresting2418 · 2025-05-02T14:26:30+00:00

The problem is that women complain men don't want to commit

Green-Quantity1032 · 2025-05-02T18:27:30+00:00

Word games. Incels have bad lives, cannot be otherwise - they have an issue by definition.

I don’t think it’s anyone’s job to relieve (that’s true for pretty much any “issue” someone has) them but it’s still an issue.

QuiteBlurry · 2025-05-02T18:46:35+00:00

I'm not sure how much recent social changes have impacted men and their dating prospects. I think it's safe to say dating in 2025 is great for men and women who would have had an easy time 40 years ago. I think it's safe to say it's harder, more frustrating and more prolonged, for people who would have also struggled 40 years ago. Free (freer) systems tend to create more clearly defined winners and more clearly defined losers.

If this is true, and if it disproportionately impacts men, then it is a mens issue. I think it does and it is, and I in no way support even social pressure to get women to date men they aren't interested in. There are lots of other things that could be done formally and informally to address this.

millenium-pigeon · 2025-05-02T19:02:31+00:00

I think it’s still fine to criticize unhealthy or intellectually disingenuous trends in society.

For instance I think it’s stupid that pretty people generally get less severe sentences for the crimes they commit. It’s not oppression but it’s absolutely insane.

Commercial-Formal272 · 2025-05-02T19:19:12+00:00

Anything that makes a large enough portion of the population discontent becomes an issue. The severity of that issue is proportional to how many discontented people there are, and how desperate they are to make that discontent go away. No matter how little you value or think of the issue, if enough people value it, it has importance and impact. Dismissing it will not make it go away.

Naebany · 2025-05-02T12:07:32+00:00

It's not done to them but IT IS a men's issue. It's something men deeply desire or even need to feel fulfilled, loved, satisfied etc. It doesn't matter if it's women's fault for not being less picky or men for not stepping up. That might be up to debate. But it is an issue that should be talked about and fixed somehow.

And not just because we pity those men. But because a lot of angry men isn't good for anyone.

Proudvow · 2025-05-02T10:50:23+00:00

If a bunch of men are in the same predicament then yes it is a men's issue.

Men don't owe women jobs, equal pay, maternity leave, public benefits, respect, or anything at all, yet the lack of these things is considered women's issues.

KoleSekor · 2025-05-02T11:46:02+00:00

Yeah, she's right. If you can't find a sexual partner, it's a skill deficiency. It's your own fault. And because I love men and I love love, I'll teach any guy who's interested how to get women to go home and get naked with you.

DiscombobulatedTop8 · 2025-05-02T14:59:19+00:00

When it comes down to billionaires oppressing the poor, the Reddit-approved view is that the billionaires suck, but when it comes down to the dating marketplace, the poor must pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

mhaom · 2025-05-02T10:49:36+00:00

Would you say the same for water?

That the people or institutions who own clean water sources are not trying to control other people. They just want to control their water sources by being left alone.

You might say water is a biological survival necessity and should be shared. But sexual access is a survival necessity for the gene pool and has been biologically imprinted as such.

Is it up individuals to secure their own clean water sources as “the world” doesn’t owe them any?

I don’t disagree but it’s worth considering the extremes of the argument.

Edit: placing this here instead of replying individually to all the commenters: Maslows hierarchy of needs places reproduction at the foundational physiological later next to air, water, food.

I don't believe men should have sexual access as a right - but I am entertaining the extreme argument that if men should just be better at getting sexual access, should they also be better at securing access to air, food, water, shelter, or are those considered rights?

caption291 · 2025-05-02T19:54:47+00:00

Do you also believe that men not granting women voting "access" was not a "womens issue" because it wasn't something that was done to them? Or do you drop the meaningless semantics about rejection not being something that's being done to you?

NeoKlang · 2025-05-02T10:41:17+00:00

it's definitely due to men's resourcefulness

TreeSweden · 2025-05-02T13:10:10+00:00

You talk about men having obligations themselves and that it's about men having done something to themselves. Men don't have any obligations either and it doesn't have to be about you having done something to yourself.

TreeSweden · 2025-05-02T13:28:58+00:00

"Women nor society are applying any oppression, they are not stealing or forcing you to do anything nor are they trying to control you or your body". This is about opinions.

Dapper-Suggestion462 · 2025-05-02T16:15:09+00:00

Ofcourse it is an “issue” for you, that is why you guys shame us everyday and everywhere!

Keep doing that.

Problem solved.

Title	Women not granting men sexual access is not a “mens issue”
Author	Cjaylyle
Upvotes	148
Comments	487
Date	May 2, 2025 10:32 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1kcxoe9/women_not_granting_men_sexual_access_is_not_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/women-not-granting-men-sexual-access-is-not-a-mens.1551236 https://theredarchive.com/post/1551236

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