"My Body My Choice" | MensRights

[–]ZenPyx 465 points466 points467 points 9 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

[+]Butt_Expert points 9 years ago* [recovered] (30 children) | Copy Link

Iono where you had this experience, but living in a rural area in a red state we definitely did not have this at all when our son was born last month. People have to specifically request it and the hospitals have to bring in docs to perform it because they don't let their staff do it.

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There's probably less chance of hearing loss, and you'll have a lower chance of getting skin cancer since ears often get sun burns.

I've seen one study that said circumcision decreased the chance of contacting HIV, but it was in a poor country where rich people were often circumcised and poor were not. There was some strong correlation but not any evidence for causation.

I don't know if circumcision does lower risk for anything, but even if it does- you're still trading one thing for another. If everyone get a hysterectomy or vasectomy at birth the risk for cervical and testicular cancer would be 0%.

I get that it's a huge jump, but still- removing a body part and the functions involved, however small (both in terms of the body part and the function) should be a person's choice as an adult unless medically necessary.

[–]aurauley3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]Jadtheyep points 9 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

Have you actually had kids or are you just trying to get fired up? When we had our son, they asked us if we wanted to schedule a circumcision or not in the most clinical way possible. We declined and that was that. Even our family, who probably by default assumed we would, accepted it and has never even mentioned it. This is in bible belt Georgia with a moderately Christian family.

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[+]Dina_Belcher points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

My sister did not circumcise her two boys and my parents had a huge issue with it. My dad was afraid they would be made fun of in the locker rooms for being different. I told my husband that I did not want to circumcise our son if we ever had one and he was very against that idea, he wanted to circumcise. At the same time he doesn't want me to get our boy dog fixed because he didn't want his balls removed and I'm mean for wanting to, it's weird.

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[–]mgm-survivor6 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I refused to testify against the man who molested me when I was 9 until the more damaging act of genital mutilating was banned. I experienced painful urination for most of my life and childhood due to undiagnosed Meatal Stenosis (I was not aware that painful urination was abnormal) as well as inorgasmia later in my life. Three of the four men in my family suffered complications including one requiring plastic surgery and another nearly dying from a staph when pustules erupted on his back after his circumcision. So, tell me how I am not a survivor? I mean, I attempted suicide because I thought the pain could be an STD that I had been infected with, but couldn't tell anybody about because I thought he might kill me, turns out it was a circumcision complication... edit: one that still bothers me, and will until the day I die - the child molestation was bad, but the circumcision pain and grief is worse.

[–]MichiganMan123 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]captain_craptain 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]WillMeatLover 22 points23 points24 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I see, so you think it should be standard for children to have their tongues cut out?

I'm going to skip the part where you deny that's what you said and the part where I explain what an analogy is to you.

It is neither moral nor pragmatic to remove body parts because they might one day become diseased.

We don't cut off limbs because they might break one day. We don't pull out children's teeth because they might have to get dental treatment (despite the fact that huge numbers of children fail to take care of their teeth and end up with cavities). We don't kill people in order to avoid their inevitable deaths later on in life.

But there are a great many people who think cutting off a part of a newborn boy's penis is okay. They think it's okay because it's a popular idea in a lot of cultures. And the real reasons have nothing to do with the medical welfare of boys. The real reasons have everything to do with controlling male behaviour, their sexual behaviour and their productivity, and none of it to their benefit as human beings.

It's wrong to mutilate newborn boy's genitals. It is especially terrible as a culture wide practice that does it "just because we've always done it". Bringing up the 1 in 100,000 case where it was medically warranted is a 100% bullshit tactic because literally no reasonable person is arguing with life saving procedures that are actually medically warranted by real existing medical conditions. But they are arguing with rationalizing genital mutilation under the guise of "preemptive surgeries" which are total and utter bullshit.

[–]Hellstar-Remina 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I know, that's not what I was saying at all. A person mentioned that it makes sense to do it under medical emergencies, such as an infection, and then you started talking about cutting children's tongues out.

The point is that medical "emergencies" are fairly common here, unlike with tongue diseases or whatever. I'm not saying you should preemptively circumcise a kid, just saying that it's fairly likely it'll be medically mandated somewhere along the line - unlike removing limbs or tongues or whatever.

My point is that your reaction didn't fit what he was saying. He was simply pointing out that yeah, it's likely you may have to circumcise a kid for medical reasons. Not necessarily do it preemptively.

Besides, I'd hardly consider foreskin vital, like a limb, but at the end of the day we're on the same side here. Except you were going too extreme.

Also username checks out.

[–]Twitch_Half 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]jerkmachine 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

How would you know what I wasn't missing out on if you still have your foreskin? My penis, and everyone's who has been circumcised, literally doesn't function the way nature intended it to. A part of my body that is supposed to be a mucus membrane to aid sexual processes is dry as a cactus. The skin is now Several times thicker and like every other part of my body. The fact that I can still orgasm doesn't mean something wasn't taken away from me, and that I wasn't literally sliced on my genitals as an infant. It's not just "excess skin". Excessive means more than necessary. The foreskin is a normal part of the male genitals, removing it removes function. If it was excess that would not be the case. The penis is meant to be moist, glans covered, for a number of reasons.

If you are uncircumcised, I challenge you to peel back your foreskin and somehow keep it down below the glans, and simply wear clothing. I guarantee you that is not comfortable. Because you have full sensation in your sexual organs.

There is harm, there it is foul. I understand it's normalized but you're just not making sense here. What you're saying is akin to "the clitoral hood is just excess skin".

[–]Hellstar-Remina 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]proteios11 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

uhh? wha? The reality is that circumcision shows reduced risks of various infections and other things. Yes. Real science. So I cant speak to the religious angle, but as a scientist in the biomedical area, I chose to circumcise both my boys. No incidents of infections or complications is not proof. But after a good friends son had some complications that were directly attributed to not circumcising the boy, it did seem like a good decision. It isnt common enough that I would go on a campaign to circumcise. but the 'religious' angle was largely in indoctinated 'health' issue coded in religion. It is less an issue inthe era of antibiotics, but 5000 years ago more circumsiced boys survived than uncircumcised. Fact. Whether you want to do it now is very different, as we have antibiotics that are successful and not very many resistant strains (although taht is changing).

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[+]Zeus1325 points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Because it is different. FGM literally cuts off the entire clit, its comparable to cutting off the entire head of a penis. (And on how we are all have female parts when we start to form its closer than you think). Not to mention male circumsicision is done by people with at least some semblance of medical training, and in generally clean environments. FGM is performed by those with no training, and extremely unclean environments. In addition, by nature of FGM it is more open to infections.

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The practice is encouraged for infants for a variety of reasons, some parents choose to have it done for their infant for the sake of religious tradition (i.e. the Jewish faith and maybe Muslim I'm not sure, have practiced circumcision for centuries, but not Catholics outside of the USA and not for religious purposes apparently), some choose to have it done because they believe that it is aesthetically preferred by most women whether this is myth or reality aside, and some have it done because it reduces the risk of infection in the foreskin from improper cleaning.

The actual value of having or not having it done is unclear, but the subject has become a touchy one recently because some people have started to claim (with accuracy I couldn't say, I am circumcised after all) that it reduces sensitivity in the penis, though I've heard people in the past claim that the very opposite is true and that having a circumcised penis feels better allegedly because of more constant contact with the head.

I would think the only people who could actually account for this are those who have been circumcised in adulthood and compared sex in both circumstances, but it's a touchy subject for a lot of people, especially for Men's Rights advocates who feel that if a woman should have bodily autonomy, so should male infants, and I agree with that, but I don't resent my parents at all for having me circumcised personally and they certainly weren't trying to oppress me by doing so, they just thought I'd have a pretty dick one day, I like to think they were right.

Edit: Removed Catholics from the list of faiths that practice Circumcision.

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I'm not saying that some Catholics don't practice circumcision, I'm just saying that circumcision isn't a Catholic practice nor is it endorsed by the Catholic church.

Apparently the practice does exist in the Old Testament

This is true, but modern Christians aren't bound by the laws of the old testament.

Infact when Christianity first started growing, there were some people who said that you had to be circumcised to be a Christian, but Paul cleared that up and said that it wasn't a requirement to be Christian and should even be looked down upon by Christians.

I do not personally practice Catholicism, or really care

I'm a former protestant, now an atheist. I was deeply religious at one point in my life and raised in Christian school, so I know a lot about Christianity and the Bible. And I know for a fact that Christians (especially Catholics) do not practice circumcision for religious reasons.

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It is still very likely that you have neurological damage from such an extreme amputation.

It has been shown (not just with genital mutilation, but any kind of severe trauma) that it can have a severe effect on the child's neurological pain response development. This can be a very serious, life-long, life-threatening disability. Pain response is a very important function of the nervous system, as anyone can well imagine.

Not to mention that specifically, in genital mutilation, it massively decreases the nerve endings that trigger sexual pleasure. Nobody but the person themselves has a right to condone such extreme body modification. (absolutely necessary medical emergencies aside).

Again, it is completely irrelevant what YOU think about YOURSELF, the point is, this brutal practice should not be allowed. Can you understand?

This type of concern-troll should be called out as belligerent, selfish, egotistical and sociopathic. I find the attitude that someone's "hurt feelings" are so much more important than the thousands of infants being mutilated per year, absolutely disgusting.

You are not who we are talking about. Stop being so offended, and stop derailing the conversation.

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But the point is that it isn't just making a medical decision for your kids. Men evolved to have a foreskin and, just like every other part of our body, it's supposed to be there. It's not an unforeseen complication that must be addressed or the child will suffer.

Normal is relative to society. A backwater society will see disturbing choices as normal. Modern society should not accept circumcision as normal. Most circumcisions are caused because the parents are misinformed about the issue and believe it to be a net-positive decision all around. The pros are very small and the complications and side effects can be awful and, at the very least, you have a lot less sensation in your penis. The fact that there is a stigma attached to being uncircumcised in the US is absurd and people need to be more critical of the practice and understanding of the ultimate decision being made - the US is one of the only developed countries in the world where the practice is still largely prevalent along with South Korea.

Men that have been circumcised have no choice but to accept and be happy with it, and that's fine. It's admirable to be at peace with your circumstances. But rationalising your acceptance as it being acceptable to make those decisions for children is inherently wrong. People should reconsider their positions in light of wider understanding not stubbornly hold to outdated modes of thought.

[–]Terminal-Psychosis2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Siliceously_Sintery8 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It also explicitly causes pain. You are cutting off skin that is meant to be there.

WebMD is a dumb source to just say "well WebMD says it, that's a consensus!"

From Wikipedia:

The positions of the world's major medical organizations range from considering elective circumcision of babies and children as having no benefit and significant risks to having a modest health benefit that outweighs small risks. No major medical organization recommends either universal circumcision of all males or banning the procedure.

Circumcision is associated with reduced rates of cancer causing forms of human papillomavirus (HPV),[16][17] UTIs, and cancer of the penis.[4] Prevention of those conditions is not a justification for routine circumcision of infants.[1][18] Studies of its potential protective effects against other sexually transmitted infections have been unclear. A 2010 review found circumcisions performed by medical providers to have a typical complication rate of 1.5% for babies and 6% for older children, with few cases of severe complications.[19] Bleeding, infection, and the removal of either too much or too little foreskin are the most common complications cited.

It's just not necessary, in the end. It is where HIV is prevalent like in Africa because they're desperately trying to reduce transmissions. There's nobody saying there are outright benefits in the developed world, but there is 100% consensus that it causes undue pain to the child.

In Canada there's a growing movement to get parents to realize they don't have to circumcise, all based on informed choice and consent. The kid can circumcise later if they want, but they can't ever put BACK a foreskin.

Look, if you're from the US, you have much more serious issues around infancy.

There is one country in the world eligible that has not ratified the "Convention on the Rights of a Child", and that's the United States of America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

Two countries previously didn't sign it when they had no governments, but since then they've signed.

[–]mwobuddy-4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Siliceously_Sintery4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

lol you're referring to ONE study in Uganda. I already said they say it's an objective benefit in countries where HIV/AIDS runs rampant, because it reduces the amount of skin available for infection.

Here's some studies for you since you're being so aggressive and dense all at once:

A 2002 paper in the New England Journal of Medicine studied men in Europe, Asia, and Latin America, and found that circumcision was correlated with a decreased risk of penile HPV infection (this correlation is corroborated by a 2009 study in African men), but that there was not a significant correlation between circumcision and incidence of cervical cancer.

When they restricted their dataset to women with only one sexual partner, there was an increased risk of cervical cancer in women whose partners were uncircumcised only if their partner was already considered at high risk for contracting HPV (as determined by age at first intercourse, number of sexual partners, and sex with prostitutes). So, in men who already engage in risky sexual behavior, circumcision does offer an advantage for protecting their partners from cervical cancer.

In addition, while it is true that women with circumcised partners are less likely to get cervical cancer, they are not immune. Women with circumcised partners still contract HPV and develop cervical cancer!

So, when we're talking fractions of a percent, and so many other causes like men fucking multiple women with unprotected sex, yes. Should an infant have to bear the responsibility of risky adult men fucking around? Absolutely not, they're not sexual. If they change their mind at 15 and say "You know what? I'm going to Africa and I'm going to have a shitload of unprotected sex, I'm going to get circumcised.", they can.

[–]mwobuddy0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Siliceously_Sintery5 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry, as opposed to loudly being sarcastic and making strawman arguments like you?

Again, you can go and sit on a sharp stick, and rotate.

I notice you had no slam-dunk shit reply so you resorted to Ad Hominem now instead, as if my message lacks merit.

Here are the refutations since you need a catch-up there little buddy:

1) I pointed out your studies about cervical cancer are selective and only based around heavily promiscuous/at-risk people, it doesn't make a significant difference in normal populations.

2) I called out your strawman argument about "look it gives a possible benefit with NO consequences", by showing you botched circumcisions from the 1.5% of circumcisions out there. That's the rate for incidents during the procedure.

I'll never circumcise a child nor recommend it, same as I'll always recommend maternity leave and breastfeeding.

America seems to have a problem with 'rights of children', they're the only country in the world that hasn't signed the Convention on the Rights of the Child. 196 ratifications, and none from the crazy-ass USA because conservative and religious organizations oppose it. Why wouldn't they? Keeping children dumb and poor helps maintain a republican voter base.

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"Injure, disfigure, or make imperfect"

This part of the definition is why I hesitate to call it mutilation. Im not saying its not horrible, I just don't think it necessarily falls under the definition.

Going through it one by one. Injure? Many would argue its not an injury, similar to how a pierced ear isn't an injury. Disfigure? Some would claim it makes the penis more appealing, so its not really being disfigured. Make imperfect? Some would also argue that its more perfect that way, either due to appeareneces or due to the "ease of cleaning" (look im not saying its easier to clean, Im just making the argument some do. Please do not argue with me about that because I agree with you).

Im not arguing for circumcision just to reiterate. I think its pretty fucked. I just don't think its quite in the realm of mutilation because I can understand why some people might be okay with it or support it even though I am not.

[–]Siliceously_Sintery2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Injure? Many would argue its not an injury.

This is where you lose me and I think you're grasping at straws trying to avoid the Mutilation definition. It is absolutely an injury, you are cutting off skin. You are absolutely disfiguring a piece of body permanently. It may make it look more appealing to some, but it's still disfiguring the same as piercing your ear is. The big difference there is that an ear can heal over the piercing, so it's not quite as invasive, though I still don't agree with piercing a toddler's ears.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=circumcision+botched&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL5JGj7s_SAhVSyWMKHWDcB-IQ_AUIBigB&biw=1024&bih=620#tbm=isch&q=botched+circumcision&*

Go look at some pics dude, it goes really wrong sometimes, and children have DIED from complications related to circumcision. All over the dad going 'you know what, I want my son to look like me.'

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It is technically mutilation, those body modifications. Mutilation only has a negative connotation because we as a society don't like the idea of disfiguring ourselves. Pierced ears, sure, tattoos, etc. Great. Power to them. Even circumcision, I don't mind if you do it yourself, self-mutilate to your hearts content.

I mind when someone chooses to do it for you.

You are definitely damaging skin dude. I don't know how we're still debating this.

Look, if I cut the earlobes off an infant, I'm mutilating them right? Despite if some guy goes "oh I think it looks better that way".

It's mutilation, it's still an injury. You are damaging bodily tissue that is not meant to be removed. Stop arguing about the definition and consider the idea that someone would snip off your earlobes at birth because they like how it looks. Doesn't sound ok, right?

Why is it ok to do it to a penis.

[–]Reddit19901 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are definitely damaging skin dude. I don't know how we're still debating this.

I never said you weren't damaging skin...

I said some people might not consider it an injury or disfigurement. The reason I say this is because by definition disfigurement means "to impair (as in beauty) by deep and persistent injuries." Some people think its improving the beauty, so that goes out the window as an objective reason for it qualifying as mutilation. Look at the definition of mutilation by itself:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mutilation

as to make imperfect

This is arguable. Like I said, many people think its an improvement.

to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of

Not an essential part, so this also doesn't work.

Mutilation only has a negative connotation because we as a society don't like the idea of disfiguring ourselves

Not so sure about this. It has a negative connotation because it is almost always used to describe something horrible that was inflicted with ill-intent. The only time you ever really hear it being used in a different sense is when an old religious person exaggerates a tattoo or piercing. Without the motivation to be doing harm it becomes an unwise, ignorant thing to be doing, and not too much more than that.

I mean you are free to disagree. I just have a very explicit definition and idea of what mutilation is, and I don't think circumcision applies. I don't think billions of people are actively engaging in mutilation because mutilation is something that is reserved for the most atrocious attacks on a person in my mind (cutting off limbs in the congo for example).

[–]Siliceously_Sintery1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]HotDealsInTexas3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All right. Imagine if it was a common practice to remove boys' eyelids during infancy. Some proponents of the practice cite potential health benefits such as preventing corneal scratches caused by debris getting trapped underneath the eyelid, and that it's easier for boys to learn to put in contact lenses if they are unable to reflexively blink. Some even claim it reduces risk of infection. But in reality, the procedure originally had religious roots, and was popularized in America with the rational that it would stop men from closing their eyes and thinking of sex.

Many men insist on having the procedure done to their sons, so that "he'll look like me," or "people will stare," and many people think it looks weird and gross to see men blink.

Eyelid removal also has many health risks: most men have to apply eye drops on a regular basis, and have to wear contact lenses or even glasses to prevent corneal damage. Complications are also frequent: many men suffer damage to their eye muscles, lose vision in one or both eyes, or even lose their eyes entirely. In fact, there are over a hundred cases a year where a baby boy either bleeds to death or suffers a secondary infection that reaches his brain and kills him as a result of eyelid removal surgery.

This procedure has been done to 1 in 3 men worldwide, and although it's very rare in developed nations outside America, not a single developed country has banned it, saying: "It's the parent's choice whether their sons should keep their eyelids."

You'd be fine with not calling that mutilation, right? After all, it's just a bit of skin.

[–]Reddit19901 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Disinformation, that's a fucking good one. What exactly did I say that was "disinformation" you fucking dipshit? Stop talking to me like I'm some kind of huge supporter of circumcision and read my goddamn posts. You're clearly just trying to avoid admitting your analogy was total horseshit by trying to find rare issues that can occur. Its no where near the same thing as removing your eyelids.

The reason I "laughed" is because its obviously not something that happens very often, and you're making the case its much more significant than it is. Quick google shows that 0.003% percent of babies die from circumcision... Those numbers are including deaths that indirectly involve circumcision, so I suspect that number is actually on the high side and doesn't properly represent what's going on.

You're 44 times more likely to die from umbilical cord wrapping around the baby, 115 times more likely to die from sudden infant death syndrome, and 8 times more likely to die on an automobile accident shortly after birth... And these things are all pretty rare. Its practically a non-concern at those numbers. If anything, you acting like this is a widespread occurrence is disinformation you pleb. "Very real potential" my ass... and there's a very real potential they die on the way home in a car accident. The nastiness of circumcision aside, that's just straight up fear mongering. Fucking please.

[–]HotDealsInTexas3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Answering more seriously: by that definition, most FGM wouldn't be mutilation either. It's just a little nub of flesh after all. Sewing a girl's labia shut is just a few stitches.

The popular definition of mutilation, and the one Wikipedia uses, is:

Mutilation or maiming is an act of physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of any living body.

And circumcision does degrade function: it reduces sensitivity and impairs the natural sliding of the penile glans, requiring lubrication. Whether it degrades appearance is somewhat subjective, but procedures such as foot binding, neck stretching, and head flattening are considered mutilation despite being done for the sake of beauty.

For reference, other procedures referred to as mutilation include branding (a burn, but a small one), scarification, and ear cropping surgeries - including the ones done to make dogs' ears stand up. No, circumcision isn't the most severe type of mutilation, but that doesn't mean it isn't mutilation.

I put it under the category of tattoos, body modifications, and ear piercings.

IMO, the simplest and most accurate definition of mutilation IS "Body modification performed without consent or medical necessity." Basically, mutilation is to body modification as rape is to sex.

[–]Reddit19901 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

by that definition, most FGM wouldn't be mutilation either

If there was a significant number of people doing it, and it had some cultural significance, then nah I wouldn't call it mutilation either honestly. I wouldn't support it obviously, but I also wouldn't call it mutilation.

but procedures such as foot binding, neck stretching, and head flattening are considered mutilation despite being done for the sake of beauty.

I wouldn't consider that mutilation as well. I'd say its a cultural practice of body modification. It can cause joint and health issues, so there is an argument to be made its mutilating the body. I get classifying those as mutilation, but I wouldn't because I don't think its a fair classification to give.

I consider mutilation something that is spiteful in nature. In your definition for example it says, "is an act of physical injury." This stands out as important to me. Many people don't consider these procedures an injury at all. There's too much of a gray area for interpretation in my opinion.

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dude even the ones done by doctors are barbaric. Watch a video of one. I know it's a big thing to ask of you but seriously, watch a video of a circumcision. That baby just screams and screams and screams. And in the end his dick is bleeding and the nurses and doctors don't even give a fuck. His mother/father aren't there and he's tied down all four limbs into a special tray. They send him home with a raw dick. Not just with a couple of nice cuts from the skin being gone. At that age the foreskin is attached to the head of the penis like the fingernail to the finger and before they cut it off they have to rip it. His dick head is bloody and painful for weeks and no pain meds.

A study done on baby's brains show that it never goes back to normal after the procedure which, by the way, is mostly done without anesthesia.

In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure

and

Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery

[–]blewpah -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We're talking about people with no medical training and dirty hands using broken glass to cut out a girls clitoris in a mud hut yaknow.

You realize that most circumcisions world wide are done by Muslims in the middle east and Africa right? They usually do it right before the boy reaches puberty where they throw a big party for the boy and invite all his relatives. The party ends with the boy being held down by his male relatives and circumcised without anesthesia.

And all female circumcisions aren't done in mud huts with broken glass. In Malaysia and Indonesia, female circumcision is done in hospitals by trained doctors just like male circumcision in the US.

Reading this thread is a real culture shock. In this thread moms are discussing having their daughters circumcised just as casually as American moms would discuss having their sons circumcised.

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Especially because most circumcisions are performed by doctors in a hospital not some guy in a hut without clean instruments

And all female circumcisions aren't done in mud huts with broken glass. In Malaysia and Indonesia, female circumcision is done in hospitals by trained doctors just like male circumcision in the US.

Reading this thread is a real culture shock. In this thread moms are discussing having their daughters circumcised just as casually as American moms would discuss having their sons circumcised.

Also I'm sure most men are glad their parents had them circumcised, I know I am.

I'm not, and tens of thousands of other men aren't either.

Fuck dealing with having to clean that nasty smeg

Why do you think cleaning an uncircumcised penis is rocket science? I've talked to uncircumcised men and they've all said that it would have to take weeks of not bathing to get any smegma.

Not to mention that women get smegma under their labia and clitoral hoods. Should we circumcised women too to get rid of smegma?

higher risk of STD

Wearing a condom > cutting parts of your dick off.

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Male circumcision is something largely done by men to men.

Due to prenatal health (and the continued importance of breastfeeding), the WHO has deemed that the well-being of the woman and the well-being of the child are an inseparable continuum. It's not the father hospitals defer to in regards to child health.

Not that it even really matters who does the deciding or the snipping. The point here is the hypocrisy.

Why bring women and feminists into the argument at all?

This comic demonstrates a truth: Socially, day in and day out, for the past 50 years we have been focusing on and fighting for the rights of women.

Meanwhile, something as BASIC as the mutilation of 77% of male infants is so normalized and socially accepted that it goes completely unnoticed as even being a problem.

The reason that Mens Rights peeps bring women and feminists into the discussion so often, is because there's no other gender to compare our mistreatment to.

Women have PARADES and MARCHES and MEDIA COVERAGE. They see a wrong and fight to fix it, and they're celebrated and praised and told they're strong.

If a man even opens his mouth to talk about a rights issues, he's protested and vilified. He's told to suck it up and get back to work.

Feminists are brought up so often because they're the group that taught the entire world that fighting for women means fighting for equality. These comics/memes/arguments (sometimes poorly) attempt to deconstruct the situation so it's easier to see the blatant denial of male rights.

edit: misspelling

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I guess, I was forcibly circumcised as an infant too though and I don't at all feel like it was a horrible disfiguring or desensitizing experience for me personally nor do I feel like saying it is or is not a difficult truth or comforting lie. As far as I'm concerned it could go either way, and this is incredibly subjective but every woman I've ever been with has said she preferred men who were circumcised, granted that's opinion based, it's just my experience. My main point was that the comparison is really only something that a man who was circumcised in adulthood could make.

We can't really say whether or not the experience actually makes anything feel different at all, because we never had foreskin. If you want to make the argument that it is disfiguring I'll accept that, but at least in my experience women have preferred circumcision so I haven't considered it a negative cosmetic attribute at all. To each his own really. Again though, I agree that the decision should be made as an adult, but I don't feel horrifically wronged or robbed by my parents of my foreskin. I've done just fine without out.

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Yeah but its not her fault, a man probably did something to her. I live in a small province in canada and people are still freaking out about that brock kid getting 6 months or whatever it was, which i agree is very lenient. However, in my province there were at least 2 female teachers caught raping young boys and neither received jail time. One even tried to contact more children for "meet ups" after she was released on bail, that didn't up her charges at all. I'll bring these cases up which happened in the area that they live and it will always be met with them being angry that a guy brought them up or will say that the young boys liked it because every kid wants to sleep with their teachers. Most feminists will try to make up excuses and say that these cases don't matter because women do it less or that its not as traumatic for men.

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do you honestly think the politicians that want to defund planned parenthood are doing so because they respect a women's right to make thier own choices?

No, and I never claimed that they did.

Are you actually trying to paint a picture of Republicans defunding planned parenthood SOLELY with the goal of respecting women's rights?

Why do you find it necessary to lie about what I said?

Where did I even insinuate something like that? They want the government to stay out of women's health. That's all I'm saying. Motivation doesn't come into it.

You claim you want the government to stay out of women's health. But you don't. You want the government to take on women's health head on, and fund it. Organize it. Make decisions about it. You want the government deep inside the issue is women's health.

Don't be a hypocrite. Come or and say it. You want the government in every woman's uterus, giving you treatment and drugs for free. Your just claim you want the opposite because it sounds better.

[–]Zerichon-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]DrBaconTaco points 9 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

I will never understand why men think it's okay to circumcise.

Generally the idea is "His should be like mine".

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There is zero excuse for such horrible hygiene of your kids that they develop infections so chronically.

Sounds a lot like she's stretching the truth quite a bit, or is simply a horrible parent that never washes her children. :(

The human species is MILLIONS of years old, and we've reproduced just fine without lopping off huge parts of our children's genitals shortly after birth. The huge danger of complications from this rediculous and abusive act FAR, FAR outweighs any medical "benefit".

This barbarism is very new in the grand scheme of things, and completely abusive. Strangely, this is fully acknowledged only in the case of female infants. That male genital mutilation is still legal, let alone so wide-spread in America, is absolutely inexcusable.

The most common form of MGM, amputation of the foreskin is very comparable to the most common version of FGM done on females. That being the removal of the external tip of the clitoris, plus internal vaginal lips.

The clitoris is actually a very large, mostly internal organ btw. The external tip of the clitoris that most people think of is actually only that. A small part of an organ that is, in volume, about the same size as the penis.

Both these barbaric amputations produce exactly the same medical "benefits" too (next to zero). It has exactly zero to do with actual hygiene, not in modern countries where we have running water and soap.

Even in countries where studies supporting the "benefits" come from (in the case of MGM, Africa), the complications and deaths from such are far more harmful than any tiny benefit shown. Such dishonest "studies" have been thoroughly debunked, again and again.

Also, we now know that massive nerve damage suffered as infants can cause serious malfunctions in pain receptor development. This is not exclusive to amputation of parts of an infant's genitals.

Many babies that have had horrible accidents develop problems with sensing pain. This is a life long disability.

To do this to an infant for fully selfish reasons in inexcusable.

[–]ScusemeMeems2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is a thing. I had a friend who decided to get circumcised in his twenties, because his foreskin was too long. Things like this happen, and that is likely justified. But we can't just circumcise all ours boys because a small percentage have an issue. That's totally different, when it needs to be done, compared to people who do it for cosmetic reasons.

I'm not dogging on anyone who is circumcised, most didn't have that choice. I'm just saying, it's not always needed, and if my potential sons don't need it, I won't have it done. Unless they want it. I will support it, and help my son if he wants it to be done.

But at the end of the day, that's not my penis to mutilate, even if it is my son. Health reasons for circumcision are not the same for doing it at birth so the son "can look like their father or boys in the locker room."

[–]Lecks2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Just tell you fiance that its not his penis, so its not his choice. His son is the one who will have to live with and use his penis for the rest of his life, not him. His son is the one who will have to deal with any complications or side effects to it, not him.

If he pulls the "I want us to match" card, ask him if he would be willing to cut off his penis to "match" his son if his son ended up with a botched circumcision.

If pulls the "I don't want him to be teased" card then show him that circumcision is on they way out in America with only 54% of boys being circumcised in 2010 (and dropping) with some states being less than 25%.

Most circumcised men want to circumcise their son because of their ego. If they don't circumcise their son then they have to admit that circumcision is wrong and if they admit that circumcision is wrong then they have to admit that their penis is wrong or broken. When they circumcise their sons they're just trying to validate their own penis. So remember this and try to be sensitive to your fiance's ego when you discuss this with him.

If all of this fails, show him a video of an infant being circumcised on Youtube. Ask him if he really wants to put his son through all of that pain and suffering just so they can "match". So many men have changed their minds just by watching the procedure be done.

Sorry for the wall text, I'm just a circumcised guy who hates being circumcised so I'm really passionate about this.

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[–]Could_be_Hitler1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I do think it's different. I'm a guy who wasn't circumcised and from personal experience I wish that I had been. Other than the hygienic reasons I also have phimosis which means my foreskin is too tight so the turtleneck becomes a fucking rubber band strangling my knob. Also it's annoying to pee with foreskin.

On the other hand, female circumcion, or at least the kind that most real feminists are talking about is where they cut off the clitoris. It's not trimming the skin but removing functioning parts of a woman's sexual organs.

I'm personally fine with giving parents the option to circumcise male babies. I'd say it's a much smaller decision than giving pregnant women access to abortions(which I am not against, just using it to make a point). Also some states allow parents to choose whether to vaccinate their kids or not which is also a much more impactful decision on a child's life.

Trust me when I say that I'd rather have gotten snipped as a child when I won't have remembered it than my current position.

[–]wanked_in_space8 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I do think it's different. I'm a guy who wasn't circumcised and from personal experience I wish that I had been. Other than the hygienic reasons I also have phimosis which means my foreskin is too tight so the turtleneck becomes a fucking rubber band strangling my knob. Also it's annoying to pee with foreskin.

Circumstances is the last line treatment for phimosis and it is not a common problem. Chopping something off because it MIGHT cause a problem is not recommended in any other area of medicine. Especially in infants.

And the beauty of being an adult is that you can choose to get a circumcision now. It's in your power.

On the other hand, female circumcion, or at least the kind that most real feminists are talking about is where they cut off the clitoris. It's not trimming the skin but removing functioning parts of a woman's sexual organs.

They're different in that they are varying degrees of the same thing. The lack of choice is not different. At all.

I'm personally fine with giving parents the option to circumcise male babies. I'd say it's a much smaller decision than giving pregnant women access to abortions(which I am not against, just using it to make a point). Also some states allow parents to choose whether to vaccinate their kids or not which is also a much more impactful decision on a child's life.

Being a smaller decision doesn't make it a less wrong decision.

And skipping vaccinations generally are harmful for other people. It's like not paying into insurance and getting the benefits. Except when outbreaks happen, but at that point, herd immunity has failed and the imperfect vaccines start to fail. Circumcisions have lead to loss of penises.

By the way, I think anti vaxxers are morons that put us all at risk.

Trust me when I say that I'd rather have gotten snipped as a child when I won't have remembered it than my current position.

And you're projecting that assumption on all men. One that we don't all agree on.

[–]contractor8088 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Terminal-Psychosis4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Talk to your doctor about options for stretching out your foreskin. This is vastly safer than surgery to remove the skin. Stretching is a very common thing with people that have your problem, and vastly superior for all but the most extreme cases.

Back on topic:

The most common form of male genital mutilation is completely comparable to the most common form of female genital mutilation.

The clitoris is actually a very large, mostly internal organ. What you call the "clit" is just the very tip of it. On average the clitoris is about the same size as a male penis, just internal.

And removing the tip of the clitoris plus internal vaginal lips produces the same medical "benefits" as removing the foreskin. (namely, basically zero) The complications such a major amputation so often produces

far, far outweigh any laughably small "benefit".

Unless done for extreme medical emergencies, amputating any part of any baby is completely obscene.

Especially something so important as pieces of their genitals. Every human has a right to bodily autonomy.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

is where they cut off the clitoris. It's not trimming the skin but removing functioning parts of a woman's sexual organs.

Not true. Female circumcision isn't always removal of the clitoris and infibulation. The UN and WHO consider even removing the labia or clitoral hood of a girl to be mutilation, even though it is far less destructive than male circumcision.

In many places like Malaysia and Indonesia, female circumcision is done in hospitals by trained doctors. And is just trimming a bit of skin.

Reading this thread is a real culture shock. In this thread is moms discussing having their daughters circumcised just as casually as moms would discuss circumcising their sons in the US.

Also some states allow parents to choose whether to vaccinate their kids or not which is also a much more impactful decision on a child's life.

Vaccines are accepted as valid medicine the world over. While circumcision is only accepted by American doctors.

I'd rather have gotten snipped as a child

I'm circumcised and hate it with a passion. I wish I could at least know what I'm missing out on.

[–]Pollo_Jack-6 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Fuck this made me chuckle, I really don't want to google image search my proof either. Anecdotally while yea young boys foreskin doesn't move as much as an adult's there is still plenty of skin folds for smegma to get caught in. Cleanliness at this point is ultimately the parents responsibility , however do you think a less than educated circumsized father will remember to be on top of that shit? Probably not and that's where you get issues, in that case circumcision is a smart choice.

Female circumcision can be equated to a sexual hazing ritual. In order to be accepted into the society of "acceptable women" you have to go through this ritual that is a more extreme version of college hazing, and has similar connotations.

I know how to clean my dick, so I don't see the point in removing my potential children's foreskin, but I understand why someone would want too and that given the context it's ok.

[–]the_gr33n_bastard11 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]GeorgeMichealScott-7 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let's think of the case of the less than educated circumcised father. He may not think to clean, or educate his son on how to clean his dick properly. That's not really the dad's fault, he never had to worry about it. In this case it's maybe a smart decision health wise to have the son circumcised.

Female circumcision is a sexual hazing ritual. In order to be accepted into that cultures greater group of women you must undergo this procedure, it's practice and execution is most often done by women to women.

Male circumcision for non Jewish western societies (because it is about being part of the group in their culture) is about cleanliness.

I'm not going to circumcise my child because I know how to clean my dick and I feel confident in my ability to pass that knowledge along. However I do understand cases where people would want to circumcise their son and I think it's ok.

[–]Commander_Kind18 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_gr33n_bastard15 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_gr33n_bastard12 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You have a vacuous mind.

Male circumcision would have originated in african and asian cultures, probably for 'cleanliness' as well as a rite of passage after iron knives were invented/introduced, and has since been co-opted for various ceremonies and ritualistic purposes.

Western society adopted the practice and it became increasingly popular with increased popularity of christianity. This was largely under the promise of preventing religious parents' sons from masturbating (sinning), and so was performed on sons at the youngest possible age when they could get away with it. The cleanliness aspect would have been basically used to bolster the decision as doctors were always complacent in the myth of added cleanliness; especially in the states where each circumcision procedure directly benefits them financially. Soon enough the masturbation justification wore off and all we're left with is the mythical cleanliness justification, which american doctors still regularly espouse. Make sense?

You claim to know how to clean your dick. Good for you. But you still say it is ok if someone else did it because you 'understand why parents would do it'. I hate to break it to you but the same reason causing you to comment with your bullshit here is the same reason as to why parents would do it in the first place in this day and age. That reason is a lack of understanding.

You simply don't get it do you? You do realize we evolved foreskins, right? When we were more primitive apes in the dirty wild environment when infant mortality would have been a major cause of death, obviously there weren't enough serious cases of dirty or infected foreskins as to select for their disappearance. In other words, foreskins have never had cleanliness issues. The only issues foreskins have ever had is a bit of dick cheese that comes off with a drop of water, and innane, self-absorbed, paranoid religious homo sapiens who were too afraid of dying to give a shit about the rights of a newborn male.

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I'm an American woman. Trust me. In all the relationships I've been in, the man wants our potential sons to be cut, and I'm criticized for thinking otherwise. I bring it up, because it's important to me. And I get push back. I hear, "you're a woman, so you don't understand." Oh, I don't understand having genitals? I don't understand having decisions made against my will? Really? No. it frustrates me that American men want their boys snipped. I was raised by a single dad and three older brothers, and I still don't want my sons cut. There are not enough men on the planet to change my mind. That. Is. not. My. Body. To. Chop. Again, I'm here to protect it, not harm it. Why does the foreskin exist? How does that explain "god's perfect design?" I think some men need circumcision for medical reasons, as I've known a couple of men who did. But they were adults making that choice for their bodies.

Nope. Nope. Nope. I will not cut my son. No way. No how. Unless his life comes down to it; noooooooooooooope.

[–]Siliceously_Sintery 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ScusemeMeems 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I value their opinion, but realize it's not someone I want to be with. Circumcision is a huge decision, and if I don't agree with a man on it, then I know I shouldn't be with that man. I'm sorry. I can't cut something I carried and squeezed out. My baby's first few weeks of life won't be in pain bc I made a cosmetic decision for him. It breaks my heart to see babies like that. It's all shallow arguments for circumcision in America. And don't say it's cleaner...little baby girls have to have their vaginas cleaned to avoid infections (they get poop in their little vaginas, and have to be cleaned very well, and have heard many a dad say, 'I didn't realize how hard it was to keep a little girl clean'), so cleaning a little boy's penis is the same concept. Again, I don't dog on those that are circumcised; it's just not something I want to do to my child, and I don't want to be with men who want to do it to their child. It's mutilation. It's easy to talk it up when it's all you've known...but I don't know how any woman can condone it after seeing their child go through the procedure. Our boys don't need weeks of pain after birth. I can't, in good conscious, think it's okay for the sake of how the child's penis will look later. As a woman, I've not been weirded out by an uncircumcised penis. It's freaking nature. It's how it's supposed to look. Good on you if you choose circumcision, because I also don't believe in sticking my nose in other people's homes, but others have the right to do the opposite. Great if you can...I can't. I won't judge if you do, it's your kid. But maybe we should teach our children to not judge if they're not. Why are intact kids made to feel awkward? They are the ones who weren't mutilated after birth.....

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it's more hygienic too, less to clean and all

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[+]DrBaconTaco points 9 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Being pro-abortion and anti-circumcision aren't mutually exclusive as I think the author of this comic is implying.

That's not what the author is implying. The author is mocking someone being pro-choice but making decisions about someone else's body.

[–]circuscommando 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Drunken_Fizz points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

MRA's don't do anything besides pay lip service to being for women's issues. They might write a few articles here and there but besides that what do they really do?

I don't see any Men's Right organizations lobbying for women's issue, I don't see any MRA's protesting against the discrimination of women , all I see them doing is going "nuh uh, we care about women too!" when people point out their hypocrisy.

Men have so much lobbying power that they could make great strides for any women's issue if they really wanted to.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]circuscommando 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree that it's lip service- is not the goal of preventing male circumcision more than a legal matter? Certainly in the US FGM is already generally considered taboo, but socially male circumcision isn't. I would then argue that writing against the cultural grain is more than lip service.

Feminist organizations don't generally specifically target male circumcision, unsurprisingly, feminist causes are usually busy fighting back on causes such as abortion rights, rape, etc. No, feminists aren't going to march against circumcision: it's absurd to expect them to when MRA's certainly don't.

The power of VAWA seems aimed at providing a national framework for ensuring follow through in cases where people may not pursue legal recourse due to fear. Do you think the bill would have had a remote chance of passing if it included provisions against male circumcision? Tell me, who would have considered that? Change the minds first.

Feminists do have lobbying power, and yes they could make "great strides against circumcision if they really wanted to". But somehow, they seem to be really busy fighting for abortion rights

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Some types of FGM are worse. Some types are simply shavings of skin the size of a piece of glitter, or even a pinprick. FGM having the potential to be worse doesn't change much, and circumcision isn't exactly safe and regulated. Thousands of men and boys die each year in Africa from it. The types of FGM that are worse than MGM are actually very uncommon.

None of this even matters. You can't compare the mutilation of 140 million women to the mutilation of 350 million men. It's the same violation of basic rights. Women protesting the mutilation of a few women in Africa or the middle east has become so loud that nobody cares about male genital mutilation. Google "Genital Mutilation". Literally every result on the first page is ONLY ABOUT WOMEN. How would you feel if a search for domestic violence was only showing results like "Why are there no men's shelters in the U.S.? What is domestic violence? 5 new men's shelters in southeast U.S." and none of the results mentioned women at all, despite it being well known that DV affects both genders.

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I think the best comparison would be to put it this way. Imagine we are in the 1800s, and whites are protesting, furious that they might have to now pay extra taxes simply because they have a certain amount of land which the government is calling "wasted space". Meanwhile, the black slaves are there like "Yeah, it must be terrible having that extra land and freedom", to which a white guy responds "Hey, stop trying to go against my rights! Just because you don't have all your rights doesn't mean we shouldn't be worried about my taxes!".

Okay, that's a silly example, I admit. But my point is that the slaves can't take the issue of the land owners seriously when they are still fucking slaves who don't have basic human rights. They feel a bit left out of this whole "protesting to preserve my rights" thing, you know? Men are facing their own issues far worse than women in the west. We aren't born with the right to vote like women are. We aren't born with the right to our bodies integrity like women are. We don't get any federal funding for shelters, and we only have .3% of shelters in the U.S. anyways, despite being the majority of the homeless, and the majority of abuse victims.

When women are complaining about tampons being taxed and abortions being changed, men are complaining about being kicked out of their own homes as victims, being mutilated, losing the right to their own lives in order to be able to vote, and having no government help when they are abused and raped at nearly the same rate as women. How do you expect us to care for women's rights when our own are still far behind? Why would we put ourselves further behind with the time we can spend focusing on rights issues?

[–]contractor8081 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]sgtgig points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Red Panels

Wow.

I can almost guarantee you this is comic was not made in support of getting rid of circumcision, it was made to shit on women's rights.

I totally support men's rights and such but when this sub upvotes something like this to r/all, it really makes you look like alt-right psychos, which a lot of people think you are anyway.

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[+]DrBaconTaco points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't even make sense. If you're alive and want to die, you can kill yourself. If you're dead, you have no wants.

If you're uncut and unhappy, you can get cut. If you're cut and unhappy, there's nothing you can do.

The fuck are you on?

[–]literallypoland-5 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]bredmor points 9 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

No, you have that backwards. You can stop being alive any time you want. You can't make yourself alive if you're not. You made your own argument against yourself.

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[–]Oklawolf 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm pretty well ok with mine. The doctor left enough I can fully sheathe at times, so at 43 I haven't had that much loss of sensitivity.

That said, I can be ok with my situation and yet still recognize that it is as blatantly a human rights violation as anything. I may be ok, but I did not get a say in what was done to my body. That's wrong. Worse, the goddamn doctor outright lied to my parents to get them to agree. I'm not angry at the folks at all, I'm angry for them. If I didn't live in Canada now, I'd sue the hospital tomorrow, and would probably win. Others have. But I'm still ok with how I am.

I keep seeing people comparing it to FGM. I don't care which is worse. All I care about is that they're protected and boys aren't. People do die from this who otherwise wouldn't. That's just not right.

I just want newborns to have the choice later on. The one I and so many others didn't get. I'm not asking too much, I don't think. There are reasons to get it done, but none of them apply to a newborn unless it's a true medical emergency. Routine infant circumcision is 19th century quackery disguised as medicine.

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[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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You are defensive because you do not want to accept that a great deal of sexual function was taken from you when you could not defend yourself. It is understandable, and it's good to hear that despite your contentment that you won't be doing it to your children. However, it is absurd to say that you prefer something that is in every way objectively harmful.

I am also circumcised, it's a constant source of anger and frustration. My intention isn't to educate you so that you will be as angry or frustrated as I am, my intent is to make sure people understand the harm it causes so they do not do it to their children. I'm not trying to say you are inferior because you're cut, but it is the undeniable truth that do to no fault of your own you have been deprived of a great deal of sexual function.

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It is not a disease prone tissue, those are lies told to morally justify the practice in secular societies. The original reason circumcision was performed in the west was because it was believed to prevent boys from masturbating and committing acts of adultery.

Men have evolved with a foreskin for a reason. If it was disease prone we would not have evolved with it. It does not make you prone to infection, otherwise European men would be plagued with UTIs.

Educate yourself. The excuses you make to justify male genital mutilation is the same used to justify female genital mutilation.

1: Women prefer intact penises. And elsewhere you can find men do as well! Source: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better. Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/epdf http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place. http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection: http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the heck doesn't clean their penis? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit: http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death): http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning: Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

32: CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

[–]Ryareb4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GeorgeMichealScott-12 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Oberyn_Reed55 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1: Women prefer intact penises. And elsewhere you can find men do as well! Source: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better. Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/epdf http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place. http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection: http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the heck doesn't clean their penis? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit: http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death): http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning: Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

32: CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

[–]eXwNightmare25 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]captain_craptain5 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cutting your finger nails?!?! You are kidding me...

Foreskins don't grow back.

Finger nails are heavily made of Keratin, a hard substance also found in hair. When the glans is unprotected it hardens up, dries out and keratinizes. So the only similarity is that a mutilated penis had a glans closer to a finger nail than the soft supple skin that it should be.

That had to be the dumbest comparison I've ever heard. Male genital mutilation is catastrophic.

You lose 50,000 nerves, stretchy skin, mechanical gliding motion to facilitate Sex and masturbation, about an index card sized amount of skin. You make the child more prone to infections, loss of penis, loss of life. Just stop trying to defend this monstrous shit, it is indefensible.

Dick cheese? What are you fucking 10 years old? Do you not shower every day? Were you not aware that all mammals make smegma, including that girl you want to go down on but never will?

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[–]general6661 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Somebody is acting dumb, you clearly said "I couldn't care less what parents do", that is in no way close to "I think parents should do what they feel best when it comes to MGM".

Circumcision might not have a lot of problems to it aside loss of sensitivity and some other stuff, but it still doesn't mean it should be done because there is absolutely no reason to cut off the foreskin except in some very rare cases.

Also, we are not exactly talking about whether it is better to have foreskin or not, but rather whether it is fair that the foreskin is cut off when one is not in the state to consent for it or not. In my opinion it is better to wait until the kid grows up and let him consider whether he wants circumcision or not.

To get back to your comment I am obviously referring to your previous claim that you couldn't care less about what parents do (with absolutely no mention of what you couldn't care less about that parents do), which as i also mentioned is contradictory to the fact that you say that you would care if it was about cutting off a limb instead of the foreskin.

To borrow back my words, "think it through before you write or say anything."

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I was calling a pinky toe a flap of skin to draw attention to how fucking ignorant it is to call a foreskin a flap of skin when it ends up being about the size of an index card that gets cut and then torn from the penis.

And the definition fits, it is some very serious and irreversible damage. It fundamentally changes your sex organ in a negative way.

I'm glad you can anecdotally point out a few ignorant women who like mutilated penises, good for you. Maybe if they don't like how your ears look then you can cut those of for her too. Do you honestly think the uniformed preference of even a single woman is enough reason to cut up baby dicks? That is one of the most shallow and petty reasons to try to justify this crap. It's pathetic that anyone even tries to use it as a justification anymore. That'd be like saying, "I know a few guys who like big fake tits. We should be allowed to give infant girls DD implants shortly after they're born."

[–]Trewdub1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]nagballs0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, I'll give you that much. It has sources. I just don't think starting out with veiled insults and negative connotations is constructive, and the whole vibe of the page is accusatory (in my opinion). I read through it, and there are a few points that had merit, but almost everything can be refuted by "teach your kid to wash his dick" and "let them decide when they're older".

Especially their take on allegation 13, to give an example. That it is a parents "moral and legal right" to circumcise, if they believe it is in the kids' best interest. What is a good comparison for you, here? Say I don't want my kids to have hair on their head. I can't really be bothered to teach them proper hair hygiene, so I'm just gonna lazer it all off. Hey, some people think it looks better. It's just a few follicles, it's not like i'm lopping the whole head off. It's my right as a parent.

Or maybe I don't want my daughter to develop breast cancer, so I just remove all the breast tissue at birth. It's just a little bit of tissue, I'm not scooping out the whole chest cavity. It's a preventative surgery, I just think it will be best for my child.

I'm circumcised, if that means anything to you. I'm not unsatisfied with my sex life, or my penis. I also don't think calling it mutilation, or barbaric, is a stretch.

The fact of the matter is that circumcision became a widespread phenomenon to curb masturbation among males, and that's gross. If you read that, he also advocated for putting drops of acid on the clitoris of young girls for the same reason. If that had caught on instead of circumcision, would you be opposed to it? Or would you post a link to a site calling people that were against it a cult?

[–]Trewdub1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, sure, the author may have a serious bias against anti-circumcision. But let's pretend that, for the sake of argument, the author hates people who don't circumcise. His biases don't matter at all if he uses sources and puts to rest any myths about circumcision. If it's a debunking, it's a debunking.
But sure, I'll agree that the article is peppered with an otherwise negative view of those who are against circumcision.

Actually a lot didn't have anything to do with hygiene. Some did, but a lot didn't; they just took arguments from your side and tries to debunk them. Which has merit?

Okay, again, cutting off breasts is incomparable to circumcision. These "well would you cut off your child's leg?" arguments are so disingenuous.

I mean, just because the guy who tries to popularize circumcision wanted to curb masturbation doesn't discount circumcision itself.

Look man, don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to parents who don't circumcise. I just don't buy into the whole "circumcision is evil! Down with circumcision!!" hype.

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You have a fold of skin that's not self cleaning like a vagina, it's pretty fucking obvious how it can be unclean.

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Thank you for saying it and no, you're not the only one. I just had a "conversation" with a mom about this on facebook where I said I am genuinely glad I got circumcised because of cosmetic reasons, I feel like an uncircumcised dick looks weird and I like mine. Of course that turned into what people are accusing you now of being "okay with female circumcision" like it's the same thing...IT'S NOT THE SAME THING STOP SAYING IT IS! And for people saying you lose sensitivity by circumcising, I can tell you for a fact that if it were any more sensitive down there I would just be fucking and masturbating all day. I have 0 complaints with how good sex feels and I do it quite a bit. And none of my partners have complained about it so I don't know why people get so up in arms about it. We've been doing it for awhile and noone I know is upset that they were circumcised. But I've always said and will say whenever it's my opinion is that IT'S JUST MY OPINION! I will have a serious discussion about it with my partner if we have a son and I'm open to any and all information. I've seen the horrible pictures of "circumcisions gone wrong" 1st time moms always put on facebook just like I've seen pictures of planned parenthood cutting up babies in late-term abortions. What's true and what's not? I've never heard of a circumcision that's gone badly. But I'm with you man, probably every week or 2 I have the thought where I am glad I got circumcised and I think it looks a lot better this way. Bring on the downvotes.

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What is even the message of this comic?

It mentions women's reproductive rights and access to abortion and seemingly compares this with circumcision. The Republican congress wants to make abortion illegal, make it so women don't have a choice to pursue abortion. The analogous situation for circumcision would be if some political party decided to push for mandatory circumcision or to make circumcision illegal - to remove the element of choice.

Maybe it is arguing that men somehow don't have a choice whether or not to be circumcised. The way this comic is drawn - with only the mother and a female healthcare provider present - suggests that this circumcision decision is made only by women. But that makes no sense whatsoever - it's not just the mother that makes the decision, this is a choice made by the father as well as any other important family members. The healthcare provider may present information but it's not his or her role to make strong arguments towards a final decision unless there is a strong medical reason, and making strong arguments only means stressing what could go wrong.

What is the argument of this comic? Is it saying that because infant boys don't get a choice whether or not they get circumcised, that adult women shouldn't get a choice whether or not to abort a pregnancy? Is it that congresspeople should push to make male circumcision illegal, much like female circumcision already is? What is this comic trying to say?

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it doesn't criticize anything, it just shows that circumcision is a decision made for another person

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It's sometimes unclear to individual feminists just how antagonistic they are as a collective, especially towards men's rights groups. Feminism has promoted their causes for ~150 years with one of the central themes being that men are the enemy/oppressors/rapists/status-holders/gatekeepers.

Feminist rhetoric is constantly used to invalidate men's positions. Disagree with a feminist position? "Misogyny." Try to clarify that you're not a misogynist? "Privilege blind." Attempt to explain away any remaining ambiguity in your position? "Mansplaining" Become upset after being repeatedly shut down for superficial reasons? "Fragile masculinity." Denounce feminists for repeatedly shutting down positions like yours? "Straw-feminism." Reject the "straw-feminist" argument, and denounce feminism for allowing the inmates to run the asylum? "Misogyny!!"

Give up on arguing based on merit alone, qualify yourself as a female and point out the hypocrisy of assuming that your opinion was gendered?

"...Internalized misogyny."

Men's rights activists are pussycats in comparison to feminists. At least they don't play these stupid mind games all the damned time.

[+]SweelFor points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

What do you guys like about this comic ? How is it relevant to mens right ?

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Videos in this thread: Watch Playlist ▶

VIDEO	COMMENT
The Consequences can be worse for Boy than for Girl	+9 - There are different forms of FGM, some much worse, some comparable, some not as bad. All forms are illegal in the west. Not to mention male circumsicision is done by people with at least some semblance of medical training, and in generally clean en...
The Newsroom - America is not the greatest country in the world $1 d language)	+4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk
Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital	+1 - Here is a good video to watch for anyone reading this thread who wants to know the facts.

I'm a bot working hard to help Redditors find related videos to watch. I'll keep this updated as long as I can.

Play All | Info | Get me on Chrome / Firefox

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How about people actually use this thing called the internet to look up information about circumcision before making easily refutable claims about the procedure. As a medical student, it is important that people come up with these types of decisions for procedures on their own, and not from what they here from friends, an article online, or something on the news. Be independent, and actually use that thing located in your skull to make a logical decision based on the benefits and risks of the procedure. https://www.uptodate.com/contents/circumcision-in-baby-boys-beyond-the-basics Also, from the American Academy of Pediatrics: "the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks; furthermore, the benefits of newborn male circumcision justify access to this procedure for families who choose it. Specific benefits from male circumcision were identified for the prevention of urinary tract infections, acquisition of HIV, transmission of some sexually transmitted infections, and penile cancer. Male circumcision does not appear to adversely affect penile sexual function/sensitivity or sexual satisfaction”

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Not circumcising your children when they're born at least gives them a choice. Later in life they are free to make that choice regarding their genitals if they choose to do so. Having that choice in what they do with their body is the theme of the comic posted.

People are very much allowed to be proud and happy with their bodies, but the reason many people get upset at this is simply that parents are making a permanent decision on their children's behalf that is entirely unnecessary.

All that being said, there are people who like to interject themselves into other people's business. This is a sensitive topic for a lot of people because they see it as injustice for a defenseless party (infants). Ultimately it's something that is only the business of parents and other people shouldn't expect to sway or influence their decisions and choices regarding their children.

Sorry for the wall of text. I'm glad people like you and I can be happy with our superficial appearances.

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I didn't make a claim on numbers. There are comparable forms of MGM/FGM. That's not disputable.

And the ethical issues are identical. It's a question of bodily autonomy. Invasiveness is a medical question, not ethical. A single intrusion upon the person is a violation. The question it all boils down to is "Does a parent have the right to perform cosmetic surgery upon an infant that reduces or removes healthy body tissue?"

MGM also has its roots in controlling male sexuality. It was originally proposed as a solution to male masturbation (Kellog). And today, there are in fact people who argue either

it helps the man last longer, which is to say they cut his body so he can better satisfy a woman
women, generally, prefer circumcised pensis, which is to say they cut his body to suit the preference of any/all women

And again, as there are different types of FGM and MGM, the health issues may or may not be comparable depending on region. It's no more fair to compare infibulation to removal of the foreskin than it is to compare ritual bloodletting of the clitorus to removal of the foreskin.

[–]ulrikft1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't make a claim on numbers. There are comparable forms of MGM/FGM. That's not disputable.

There are situations where torture and surgery are comparable too. That does not mean that comparing the two on that basis alone is worthwhile. The most prevalent forms of FGM are far more invasive, medically problematic and socially disruptive than the most prevalent forms of MGM. If you wanted to discuss the hypothetical relationship between very rare forms of MGM and the most prevalent forms of FGM, go ahead, but find someone else to discuss that with. The reality of the situation is something else. Please refrain from purely hypothetical examples that have no bearing on real life.

And the ethical issues are identical. It's a question of bodily autonomy. Invasiveness is a medical question, not ethical. A single intrusion upon the person is a violation. The question it all boils down to is "Does a parent have the right to perform cosmetic surgery upon an infant that reduces or removes healthy body tissue?"

Your argument "A single intrusion upon the person is a violation" - in its extreme form - defends the position: "amputating both legs on your child is the same as doing cosmetic surgery on their earlobe". I'm sure you realize that such a position is rather untenable? You seem to have some weird notion that you can discuss ethical issues isolated and in a vacuum. The medical sides of the issue of course impacts the ethical evaluation of it (see for instance my example in this paragraph).

MGM also has its roots in controlling male sexuality. It was originally proposed as a solution to male masturbation (Kellog).

I believe jews, muslims and quite a few other groups may dispute that interpretation of the history of MGM globally.

And again, as there are different types of FGM and MGM, the health issues may or may not be comparable depending on region.

The vast majority of FGM is not comparable to the vast majority of MGM. That is the reality of the situation - as you very well know.

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It isn't barbaric, and its stupid to say it doesn't have any benefits. You are speaking with your heart and not your head. Your sarcasm makes no sense because I never really said it was a problem in the first place. Its simply reduces the rate of urinary tact infections. Circumcised penis is less likely to face that health risk. Not saying if you are uncircumcised you will face these problems, you most likely won't. However, you put yourself at a higher risk. If American women don't have a problem with it, then why do you? Do you fancy American men but the lack of foreskin turns you off? I don't understand why you are so obsessed with the penis of another man.

ZERO BENEFITS HE SAYS...

"Circumcision prevents penile cancer. The incidence of penile cancer is about 1 in 100,000 in the US. By one estimate, the lifetime risk for an uncircumcised man in the US is 1 in 600. The 5 year survival rate is about 65%. Penile cancer is almost never seen in circumcised men; such a case is unusual enough to be written up as a case report in a medical journal. In third world countries where hygiene is poorer and circumcision is less common, penile cancer causes up to 10% or 20% of cancers in men."

Source: http://www.circinfo.net/cancer_of_the_penis.html

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Title	"My Body My Choice"
Author	GOD_not_G_D
Upvotes	4488
Comments	1093
Date	March 11, 2017 2:15 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5ystxs/my_body_my_choice/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-body-my-choice.929467 https://theredarchive.com/post/929467

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