I think the biggest problem in dating is that women are simply not honest about what they are attracted to, and despite the fact that men have learned this they are simply told: “so you’re going to tell an actual woman what she wants?” When men say never take dating advice from women.

NockerJoe · 2023-05-12T16:34:24+00:00

The problem is more that, to me, a lot of women make assumptions about the dynamic that they aren't aware of and they rarely acknowledge how far off the mark those assumptions can be. The advice women give works... provided the woman is already highly emotionally invested, is really physically attracted to you, and is putting in effort to make an actual relationship happen. Or at minimum there's a level of familiarity and rapport that you usually only get after knowing and being comfortable with someone for a while.

That shit doesn't really work if it's a first date and you two don't really know each other that well. Or if she's on a dating app and has like five other guys at a time who are also asking her out. Or if the physical chemistry isn't immediately there. Which is the overwhelming majority of cases.

When women give advice they imagine you're the dude they were basically throwing themselves at that was probably never into them. They aren't imagining that you're the dude they rejected like a month ago and forgot about or the dude you had an awkward first date about where things never really clicked. But those are the dudes that are way more likely to be asking for advice.

ShivasRightFoot · 2023-05-12T16:06:58+00:00

You may be interested in knowing that there is a large body of social science research that shows women are less willing to form strong opinions and engage in intellectual discussion than men. Particularly one study shows that women are significantly more likely to "not justify my political beliefs to someone who disagrees with me;" "often feel uncomfortable when people argue about politics;" and disagree that they "have no problem revealing my political beliefs, even to someone who would disagree with me."

Coffé, Hilde, and Catherine Bolzendahl. "Avoiding the subject? Gender gaps in interpersonal political conflict avoidance and its consequences for political engagement." British Politics 12 (2017): 135-156.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Descriptive-gender-gaps-in-political-conflict-avoidance-a-I-would-rather-not-justify_fig1_303835617

Here is another study that shows women are more likely to avoid expressing political opinions, even in anonymous telephone polls. This seems to definitively eliminate a theory that women do not express opinions due to physical intimidation.

Rae Atkeson, Lonna, and Ronald B. Rapoport. "The more things change the more they stay the same: Examining gender differences in political attitude expression, 1952–2000." Public opinion quarterly 67.4 (2003): 495-521.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3521691

A very recent one that shows "gender gaps are better understood as a product of men’s comparatively higher levels of enjoyment of arguments and disagreements."

Wolak, Jennifer. "Conflict avoidance and gender gaps in political engagement." Political behavior 44.1 (2022): 133-156.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-020-09614-5

Of course there are more that you can find cited in these papers, particularly the latest paper which can link you into the most recent research in the area.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2023-05-13T04:46:48+00:00

This phenomenon has absolutely ever to do with physical appearance and everything to do with behavior.

Then your viewpoint is wrong.

I was with you up until you said this.

Hear it learn it live it: women like handsome men.

There's nothing more complicated than that.

The reason they tolerate bad behavior from men is not because they like bad behavior. It's because whoever is treating them that way has redeeming qualities (handsome, tall, rich, etc.) and has options at the level of the woman.

If another guy at the same level of attractiveness came along with addition of being kind and everything, the woman would choose him.

Sometimes people confuse lifestyle choices with behavioral dynamics, i.e. the 'bad boy' drug dealer must treat the woman like shit. So these two guys would have to run in the same circles. Like, a dude in a suit who's nice to some street rat would likely get rebuffed. But two guys in the party/drug lifestyle of equal attractiveness...the guy who treats her kindly would win.

Women give great advice --- if you understand their perspective. They're always talking about a man who is physically attractive to them first and foremost.

bigpapirick · 2023-05-12T16:59:48+00:00

Yeah I’m not sure what to say other than the women I know friends, ex lovers, family, don’t give that vague level of nonsense advice. They are far more direct in what attraction is and means and how to balance that with being nice and sensitive.

depressed_apple20 · 2023-05-13T07:28:11+00:00

If what they said matched what they did, I would take what they say seriously.

Sadly, I can't trust what they say, because what I see they actually choose contradicts it.

HobbitShaker88 · 2023-05-12T17:15:40+00:00

This is the same for men too. Alot of times what men tell me they want, they dont or they dont certainly value it. I see alot of men on here say they just want a normal kind gal who doesnt need to be hot, like they are so virtuous, and yet men get those kind of women all the time and then take advantage of them/act like they can do better.

Also, many men I dated would say they valued certain traits but then would later complain I had those traits. One complained about a clingy ex, yet he complained to me I was too independent and bluntly admitted he wanted me to act more clingy. Another said he found people with no sense of humor boring but later complained about my goofiness. Another told me he was relieved to find a girl not so obsessed with drinking whose responsible but later complained when I didnt want to drink hard at 10pm on a Sunday when I get up at 7am the next day.

MiasmicSector · 2023-05-12T17:29:25+00:00

Women say and believe what they think will make them look good to gain the approval of others, then resent the world for their own choice to do so.

v1cgt · 2023-05-12T18:54:37+00:00

The problem is women over inflated ego and self worth.

1) Women think the false persona they put out when they wear makeup , waist trainers, push up bras ect, and filters on ig is the real them. Newsflash they ain't, lots of time ls it's complete different person.

2) women recieve ahit load of attention now online via ig, women can't tell the difference between relationships attraction and just a fuck attraction. 99.99% would smash any girl so men wanting to sleep with you is not a flex. In reality women come across maybe 5 guys that would take them serious in their life that are worth something if lucky. So the over inflated perception of choice.

3) women get pumped and dump by Chad's tyrones,Jose's, and Lee's and they think cause they slept with then that's what the quality for. They thinks that's the minimum bar. Which in reality they where just a fk.

4) more "experience" is unattractive to men especially if he is looking for serious candidate. So these women in there 30s after they had there fun and have shit load of miles now want the nice guy to pick her and take care of her. While thinking she is the one settling. This is a terrible deal for men.

5) so what are men doing in response? Checking out of society, doing the minimum. No longer a reason to put in effort if all I'm getting is a used up baggage heavy 304. Hence the situation we are in now.

Average women don't want average men cause they think they are better then them

HighlyFlashy · 2023-05-12T16:15:35+00:00

Part of me agrees. I feel like women aren’t completely honest about the importance of looks when it comes to dating men and it’s something that annoys me a lot. I think it’s because women are socialized to be kind and are therefore, afraid of hurting feelings. I was actually talking to my best friend about this yesterday and she told me that growing up, her mom would tell her to be nice to men and rather than rejecting them , give them a chance because “You could make them turn gay”. Fortunately my parents weren’t wacky enough to say some weird shit like that but I feel like I’ve always heard women around me telling other girls/women to just “give the guy a chance” even if they weren’t interested in him. So I think these sentiments we’ve heard from a young ago help women forego being honest about certain things. And I believe it’s a sub conscious level issue that most women aren’t even really aware of. I do think this is changing though thanks to feminism and more socioeconomic opportunities for women.

Part of me disagrees because women aren’t a monolith. Different women like different things and a lot of the advice given is usually just subjective. Some women do just want a sensitive and nice guy. And some women don’t.

Conscious_Ad_6572 · 2023-05-12T16:42:45+00:00

Taking advice on a woman will give you exact opposite result

Updawg145 · 2023-05-12T19:47:24+00:00

The reason for this is because women are more likely to be concerned with public judgment and scrutiny, which means they'll always give the "correct" answer to a question and not as often will they give their honest answer.

SlyStocks · 2023-05-13T02:07:42+00:00

I disagree. It is mostly about looks. A 6‘4“ guy with a dominant jawline, a sixpack, broad shoulders, straight white teeth, hunter eyes and great hair will get women just fine while being nice and sensitive.

Derlyfeguru · 2023-05-12T16:24:00+00:00

If you want to catch fish, ask the fisherman not the fish. Best dating advice i ever received

toasterchild · 2023-05-12T16:29:09+00:00

How do so many men grow up to be adults who need women to tell them everything to do? You know who is getting women? Men who aren't asking what the women want but instead are communicating what THEY want. A guy who knows what he wants and goes after it is attractive, someone who just tries to mold himself into what he thinks women want is unattractive. You think that you have this all figured out but you are still falling on the unattractive side.

ratsareniceanimals · 2023-05-12T19:23:43+00:00

The problem is survivorship bias - the most visible examples of relationships are the noisy, drama-filled relationships that blow up and fail.

Tons of nice, average middle-of-the-bell curve men and women get together, and live happily ever after VERY QUIETLY, mostly out of public view.

zaph239 · 2023-05-13T09:46:53+00:00

Women have two version of themselves, the version they would to be and the woman they actually are.

Women want to believe they are emotionally intelligent rational creatures, who make mature none shallow choices when it comes to men. That the repeated problems they face in their relationships is down to all men being toxic and therefore they bare no responsibility for their dating woes.

The reality of course is different, women are extremely shallow when it comes to dating and they are actively attracted to toxic traits in men. It is impossible for women to admit this because if they were honest with themselves, they would have to admit that the only ones to blame for their toxic love life is themselves.

anotherstarbuckeroos · 2023-05-12T19:30:20+00:00

Women don't seem to enjoy telling men what they should be doing... It's kind of similar to, "I don't want to tell you to take the trash out" or "I shouldn't have to remind you to put your dirty dishes in the dishwasher"

One of the key traits of attractiveness in men is their ability to problem solve. So if we take that away by laying out the steps for you, you still wouldn't be desirable.

Soloandthewookiee · 2023-05-12T16:58:28+00:00

I think the biggest problem is not that women give bad advice, but that the people receiving the advice don't actually listen to what is being said. You can see it every single day on this sub.

"Looks aren't everything."

"SO YOU'RE SAYING LOOKS DON'T MATTER"

"Plenty of short guys are able to get dates"

"OH YEAH SO MANY SUPERMODELS ARE DATING 5'0" DUDES"

"Women respond well to kind men"

"GREAT SO I JUST HAVE TO BE A BETA DOORMAT"

It's an obsession with turning everything up to 100 with no nuance. And it's not even just about dating. Look how many men here will argue that "body positivity is about letting people feel good about themselves regardless of weight and not treating fat people like shit just because you're not attracted to them" means "OH SO NOW WOMEN ARE SAYING MEN MUST BE ATTRACTED TO LAND WHALES."

lolmastr13 · 2023-05-12T17:57:20+00:00

Practically I don’t think that’s a big problem since we can learn by observing actions and other’s experiences.

honeycall · 2023-05-12T19:48:32+00:00

True

quadruplesquare · 2023-05-12T17:09:09+00:00

Do women lie and sugarcoat their preferences? All the time. Some of it is cluelessness, some of it politeness and lack of interest to engage with your dating struggles. Nobody owes anybody truth, especially when people interact with you in person. There isn’t a single person, besides maybe your parents, who is interested in giving you a refined and genuine perspective.

Dstar538888 · 2023-05-13T02:22:05+00:00

Why are you expecting women to sit there and spoon feed you about what to do?? Part of what makes men attractive is simply taking the initiative and being leaders… if I have to sit here and spoon feed you about how to do things step by step, that’s unattractive…

puddingbike · 2023-05-12T17:12:32+00:00

CMV Disagreement

I think the biggest problem in dating is that women are simply not honest about what they are attracted to

No, the biggest problem is that men believe it. Men also often aren't honest about what they're attracted to either. And, they're often not honest about their singularity of intention: that their main interest is sexual. This is a very much a two way street. It's not really the problem. The problem is that men believe the bullshit.

There aren't many men or women who are going through life as mostly honest people. Human society is deception at every turn. As you become an adult, this is something that you should figure out. With the Internet, there's becoming less excuse not to figure it out because there are lots of people explaining this stuff on sites like this.

As has been so often repeated about women on sites like this: "Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do." That's it right there. And, the same applies to men. You won't find that many men who'll just come out and say, "I want a tall redhead with a narrow waist and a fat ass who's still at an overall low body fat percentage who's agreeable and likes to get fucked doggy while I pull her hair and call her a whore. I don't much give a fuck about her politics or personality or anything else."

Men should be getting advice from women about their fashion, haircut, shoes, and how to improve their overall appearance. LISTEN to women about those topics!

Bekiala · 2023-05-12T16:19:54+00:00

I would think women are different in many ways and the same in many ways.

When I was young, there was no way I could have been honest about what I wanted as I didn't know myself. It was through dating and meeting different people with different views of relationships and life that I figured it out.

harmonica2 · 2023-05-13T03:51:43+00:00

I don't think it matters so much if women are not honest about what they want as long we know what they want. Women seem to want the bad boy evidence wise, so I guess that means guys should become the bad boy or at least try?

Anxious-Tailor-7182 · 2023-05-12T18:55:05+00:00

They aren't "dishonest". They just don't know it. Just like you. You might think that you attracted to that or that kind of women but your subconscious doesn't care. That's why caring about it is waste of time.

TermAggravating8043 · 2023-05-12T16:36:47+00:00

The advice WORKS assuming you have enough social skills and a bit of charisma and a bit of self respect for yourself, that AND an active social life.

I’ll admit I’ve stopped telling guys this because most of them don’t have these traits to begin with and think telling someone “their a sensitive guy” is actually going to work

Women DO want sensitive men, but not self-pitying whiners and lots of guys here don’t seem to know the difference

InjectAdrenochrome · 2023-05-12T20:16:27+00:00

Well a lot of this stuff men tell you women want in the redpill community is conjecture. They tell you women like dark triad traits so basically pretend to be a psychopath to pull girls. Idk, seems kind of dumb. Or that shit about how women just loooove douchebags and abusive guys. Terrible advice for a normal guy who isn't naturally a d-bag.

The only stuff I see that actually makes sense are those guys that break down the proportions and features of what makes an attractive face + body. Like if you have a good jawline, hairline, thick nice hair and defined eyebrows you are probably above average in looks. But that's because there is at least some measure of what is generally considered attractive.

Or that YouTuber, charisma on command has some good advice about how to be more charismatic. His advice is mostly general advice about how to get ahead with the principles of show, don't tell etc. For instance, if you actually speak another language, don't tell them you speak it, actually have an interaction with someone who speaks that language and start speaking it fluently in front of people who don't know that you can speak it. It makes for a surprise and is more impactful than just saying, "oh yeah I speak Spanish". This is heavily context dependent though. But that kind of interaction makes you more interesting and memorable.

I trust that kind of advice is much better than what a lot of redpill content creators tell you to do. Trying to be dark triad sounds dumb. Acting like you have abundance is also kind of dumb if you actually don't. You should probably try not to be an open book meeting new people so they don't know a huge amount about you at first. It's better to just not share information than get caught in a lie imo.

Dating advice in general is basically all context dependent and won't work in every single situation. So just focus on your physical appearance and go for objective advice on how to be more charismatic, watch charisma on command and find other neutral channels that give less biased advice about basic psychology.

RocinanteCoffee · 2023-05-13T02:26:06+00:00

The weird thing is though some don't even take advice from men who are successful in dating and instead take advice from people who never get laid and hate women.

neetykeeno · 2023-05-13T07:01:29+00:00

Yeah whatever. Most of you who feel like this your problem is autism and it isn't just women whose replies to you are not understood by you.

If a woman emphasizes niceness and sensitiveness to you she's probably noticed that you're not nice or sensitive and are being not nice and not sensitive in precisely the way they find unsexy. This is a form of communication that most people instinctively understand...you approach the tech studies teacher and ask how to sand your woodwork project....he tells you not to be afraid to sand hard....the next guy he tells that the sanding must be even...the next guy he tells to start slow and careful and check progress carefully. See how this works?

Ok_Tomorrow_3963 · 2023-05-13T23:11:45+00:00

women being honest about what they're attracted to would lead to most men losing respect for them, hence all the gaslighting

Safinated · 2023-05-12T17:11:40+00:00

Nope, it’s the logical result of thinking of people as commodities

“I have x and y and z, plus 2a and 5b. Why won’t you accept this payment; you said it was the price!”

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-05-12T19:20:22+00:00

Women do tend to sugar coat, but I also think men tend to not listen well and hear what they want to hear, unless spoken to very directly. And then conclude they were “lied to.” Or they’ll ask the wrong woman for the wrong kind of advice. Like your mother can help you with how to get into an LTR… she has no idea about how a guy can get hookups and no desire to talk about that to her son. The number of men I’ve seen basically blaming their moms for the fact they don’t get tons of pussy is insane. I cannot imagine thinking my dad was gonna teach me how to be more appealing to dudes for random hookups.lol Parents don’t even wanna think about their kids doing that shit, at any age. Most women in general are going to be thinking of quality of dating over quantity of women you can get with.

That being said, women’s advice isn’t enough since they can only give half the picture because they have never dated as men. You gotta listen to both and go by your own experiences too. I know I won’t solely listen to men or women for dating advice as a woman. Men can give insights from their side of things, but you can also tell something is missing because they haven’t dated as women.

richard_golbes · 2023-05-12T18:06:30+00:00

women just want a nice, sensitive guy.” Men have been told this from adolescence for decades, and when they grow up to learn that the complete opposite is true

How is the opposite true? Just because there is an implied "also attractive in other ways" doesn't mean that the other parts are false.

Why do you guys always have to be so extreme?

DerayRevan · 2023-05-12T16:33:15+00:00

Since women don't know what they want

Then we can all agree/conclude that taking dating advice from them is the worst/dumbest move you can make

And yet so many men are idiots and just immediately take it

bunbun6969 · 2023-05-12T19:51:13+00:00

I would say ‘nice and sensitive’ more refers to a person having empathy. Being able to open up to your partner about your thoughts and feelings is an important part of a relationship. Everyone deserves an emotionally mature partner.

moonglow89 · 2023-05-12T20:40:32+00:00

I agree to some level

I think it boils down to many people wanting to not appear shallow, but physical attraction plays into it a lot

Women especially are taught this when they realize that men quite often don’t listen or outright reject their opinions — yes, some have really high expectations, but the downside of being socialized as a woman is the belief that we’re all treasures who deserve the best (hint: not all of us do) — yet all the same, it’s only guys who are willing to overlook that hypocrisy and put up with it who put themselves in that situation

Can’t say I’m not out here preferring “Chads” over regular guys, but I am…I found one who wants a monogamous relationship — so lucky me, I guess — but I also work my butt off to look good and don’t want to let myself go and get fat just because I landed a guy

I demand a lot from myself, so I don’t think it’s hypocritical for me to go for someone I find more attractive or valuable or whatever the metric is

But the same applies to guys — plenty of average or below guys see me and my effort and feel like I should give them a chance and get fucking furious that my standards are higher than “literally just any guy” — so it’s not like my opinion will be something they want to hear

Legal equality does not equate to social respect…men still commonly have misogynistic attitudes and plenty will ask women what we want and then invalidate it (whether justifiably or not), so like…there’s really nothing to say if a guy isn’t willing to listen

Yes, some women don’t think contextually about men they’re not already interested in, but men also get really mad when every profile says they want a 6 foot guy who makes 6 figures…again, not saying it’s realistic, but women’s polarized responses are affected by men’s attitudes towards them

Det_Steve_Sloan · 2023-05-13T08:29:44+00:00

More black pilled bullshit. AGAIN with the 'murderers only get women' 'spergism. More absolutes, either you're a pussy doormat or a max security convict alpha asshole.

The majority of women like NEITHER and the majority are dating NEITHER. Get a fucking grip.

BigVulvaEnergy · 2023-05-12T17:25:50+00:00

We give helpful and honest advice.

You just don't like it or don't want to put in the effort.

So instead, we laugh about your toddler like behavior in your mismatched clothes, saying things that don't make sense, and failing to close the deal.

Keep ignoring. It makes for fun entertainment. Like this sub.

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2023-05-12T18:57:06+00:00

I think it's less that women aren't honest and more that women don't have a clear concise, developed set of qualities to point to in the same way men do

I remember when I was in my late teens (about a decade ago); I knew nothing about female masturbation or orgasms, all media pointed to male sexuality. Huge tits, playboy models, girl on girl shit. Wanking was normal and everyone knew that but no one ever spoke about female masturbation. Video games, if they ever featured sexuality, it was geared at men (and I played games), films, magazines, music videos, anime, TV shows, too.

And of course all that is the case when like 95% of media creators, directors and producers are men.

This isn't even considering the effects of centuries of religion (which is still present in many homes) and male political power.

I think some men are very unsynpathic to the effects female sexual repression and patriarchy can have on our sexuality.

Of course, women might figure it out eventually but then we're "past our prime" and our opinion "isn't valid".

Very young women are stuck between a rock and a hard place of what they truly want, independent of anyone else, and the overwhelming sociosexual norms they've learned through their lives, which force them to see everything through a male sexual perspective, first and foremost, including themsleves. It's confusing for themselves, nevermind for you.

**Edit; my comment gets downvoted with no response (which is against the rules of the sub) and the post gets filled with the affirming red pill "women bad/inferior/nasty/selfish" comments with little nuance. This sub is becoming an echo chamber, despite the name.

People really just like to confirm their own biases too much and we're overpopulated by the terminally online that get swept up in this detached, insulated mentality 🙄**

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Fit-Feature5657 · 2023-05-12T20:00:04+00:00

no its generational curses

jellybeanzandtings · 2023-05-12T23:50:03+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Willow-girl · 2023-05-13T03:02:47+00:00

The end result is always the same though - women simply do not give helpful or honest dating advice to men. It’s always to the tune of “women just want a nice, sensitive guy.”

I have never actually heard anyone say this. I think, almost universally, women will say they want a hawt guy, ideally with a pile of money, who also treats them like a queen.

harmonica2 · 2023-05-13T05:17:34+00:00

Well I notice that when men giving dating advice to women, they don't take it seriously either, so all is fair I guess?

randomguy5612 · 2023-05-13T08:05:21+00:00

Ok. So why would you discuss dating with women?

EcstaticAssignment · 2023-05-13T11:29:09+00:00

the complete opposite is true

I think this is quite the exaggeration lol. We can debate the exact calibration of "nice" vs. "bad boy" traits that you need, but if it was just about being a prick, the dating market as we see it wouldn't make any sense. Do you really think incels are just men who are too kind and noble to be mean to women, and that if they were just willing to shed their inner Ned Stark they'd be balling? If the variable was that linear, everyone with even a bit of moral looseness would do it.

they are understandably frustrated.

I think having frustrations is perfectly OK. I was going to say "if they're constructive", but frankly not all venting has to be constructive.

But when it veers into the territory of obvious hatred and frankly stupidity, it gets unsettling and dangerous. I'm not saying that your comments like "never take dating advice from women" fall into this camp because I'm assuming you recognize that broad generalizations like this are dumb and you're just speaking hyperbolically, but some people really seem to believe that.

medlabunicorn · 2023-05-13T23:05:39+00:00

shrug the guy I married is the guy I would advise other men to be. I don’t give advice on how to get lots of no-strings sex, because I’ve never been into no-strings sex.

Physical-Pie748 · 2023-05-13T23:32:41+00:00

people will never admit that tall men with high income have an advantage in dating, and that even preselction matters, or that even race or skin colour matters (and there are more than enough studies showing that, but most people dont really care about studies and statistic, they will say you overcomplicate dating....sure....). they will shame you and say that its because of your personality or because of your hygiene why you cant get dates on dating apps. thats why i rarely talk about dating, its pointless. Honestly.

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