Average man could put more effort in his appearance and it wouldn't change a thing

Dialectic-Compiler · 2025-10-04T17:39:40+00:00

As men, since we don't have as many ways to disguise or downplay our physical features (and even fewer that are socially acceptable), the main thing we can do in this regard is avoid shooting ourselves in the foot. Stay in shape, keep clean and groomed and fix any glaring issues like bad skin or jacked-up teeth you have going on. Everything past that comes mostly down to putting yourself out there, learning to socialize well and hoping circumstances work out in your favor. Beyond that, you can only try to make peace with the hand that you've been dealt.

But let's be real. If you can't garner attraction in a plain t-shirt and jeans, with a simple haircut and an otherwise clean, well-groomed appearance, you are in the sort of rough spot that no effort in your style and appearance will ever fully compensate for.

AlmostKindaGreat · 2025-10-04T19:33:24+00:00

Men don't have many options and the ones they have usually aren't apparent. An average man sees a quality or two he likes in a woman and he gets excited and pursues her.

Women have more options than they know what to do with. They have to aggressively filter down to a manageable number. When an average women notices a deficiency in one of the categories you mentioned, she crosses him off the list in her mind. Dressed slovenly? Next. A little chunky? Next. Groomed poorly? Next. Bad haircut? Next.

Like you observe, guys with an exceptional characteristic that is highly desirable among women can get a pass in some cases. A 6'3" guy gets away with a lot compared to a 5'9" guy. But that's just the way it is.

Of course women aggressively filter on these immutable characteristics - height, face shape, etc. Let's say a man is filtered out by 50% of women based on his height. That sucks. But 50% of women are still in play. A guy of this height who is dressed sloppily will be filtered out by a woman in that remaining 50% and another guy of the same height who is dressed well will not.

That is a man's mission to be attractive to women. Get rid of all the obvious weaknesses and develop a few strengths. Women will filter you out for all kinds of things you can't change. Don't filter yourself out based on things you can change.

Livid-Log7463 · 2025-10-04T10:38:17+00:00

Women tend to have this misconception because they are able to fake most physical characteristics about themselves in order to gain access to men far out of their equivalence and assume the same must work for men.

IridikronsNo1Fan · 2025-10-04T08:34:27+00:00

The guys who got noticed were the ones whose head would stick out of a crowd of a seamless mass of people in the club and on the dance floor, they noticed the ones whose physiques eclipses that of other guys, even if they wore fucking jerseys, a back rotated baseball cap and cargo shorts.

So, working out at the gym? It seems to me that working out should count as "putting more effort into one's appearance".

I agree with the part about fashion though. I wear sweatpants and t-shirts almost exclusively and it has never been a problem for me.

Lonely_Cycle4757 · 2025-10-06T17:51:45+00:00

And even then, you STILL have to be reasonably attractive to score with a woman of your level. I was a 6/6/6 guy for many years, who was exceptionally built from many years of intense athletic participation and the work in the gym that went hand-in-hand with that.

I don't have any birth defects or horrible accidents that mar my appearance, but I'm simply a very average looking guy facially... and while I could attract girls who were 3s and 4s all day long, to attract any woman who was even of average looks was still a struggle, and to attract a woman who had put a level of effort into herself equal to what I had was pretty much impossible.

While I hold no ill will towards women for having the tastes that they have (lord knows if I had no standards I could have been super happy rolling around with 3s and 4s), it is hilarious for women to suggest that men do not do enough to gain their attention, when the men they give that attention to were generally born that way to at least some extent. Even if you have some genetic advantages, it only gets you women who have none of their own.

Putrid-Storage-9827 · 2025-10-04T08:34:50+00:00

I think dressing and grooming is more important for men as a perceived proxy for mental health and basic discipline. It's less about fashion, and more about coming across as having it together.

Not even (just) a dating thing, but a general social thing.

In this respect, I think not wearing the stained graphic tee and old sweatpants could move the needle on an unattractive man, possibly significantly - but still perhaps not enough to actually make him attractive. He may simply go from cave dwelling troll to I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen with him on the street if he appears to be a platonic friend or uncle.

Even if it doesn't necessarily result in a date for the very least attractive men, a 1 boosting himself to a 3, or a 2 boosting himself to a 4 is still a real change, even if not enough of one.

And you may be right that Chad can get away with being a slob, but I think that actually may make it more important for the unfortunate to at least appear respectable. To not be overtly disdained but grudgingly tolerated could make a massive difference to your quality of life at work or otherwise.

ReasonConfident4541 · 2025-10-05T00:27:58+00:00

Yea its crazy Unfortunately the fundamentals that women find attractive height, face, frame, bone structure etc can not be easily changed

CrwlingFrmThWreckage · 2025-10-05T08:14:25+00:00

Women are generally thinking in terms of relationships, not pickups. And their advice is for the guys who can’t get any dates, not for the average guy. So if you don’t wash your ass or your hair, don’t use deodorant, and wear a greasy food-stained t-shirt to a nightclub then work on your appearance. And if you’re looking for a relationship rather than a fuck then big muscles aren’t enough.

But if you’re a guy who just wants a fuck then be the physical stand out, especially with a bit of self-confidence. Women don’t generally like to admit they ever just look for a fuck - not as much as guys - so you won’t get advice on how to get that from them.

rejected-again · 2025-10-04T19:49:13+00:00

I don't know why so many guys think going to the gym will do anything. Unless you're always walking around with your shirt off, no one cares. and it matters less if that ripped body is holding up an ugly face.

CrwlingFrmThWreckage · 2025-10-05T02:17:41+00:00

What? ZZ Top were wrong??!!

Soft-Neat8117 · 2025-10-06T15:35:08+00:00

Exactly. An attractive man will still be attractive even if he's wearing a T-shirt and shorts.

An unattractive man will still be unattractive even if he wears a suit.

BobtheArcher2018 · 2025-10-04T15:05:45+00:00

This is an extreme take. In this one setting, the 'average' guy maxing his current appearance (grooming, dress but not working out, etc.) won't put him on the same level as naturally physically attractive guys. OK. Fair enough. Likely true.

But this is like the 4'8" albino bald guy saying that 'appearance is everything'. Yeah. From his perspective, the blackest of black pills is warranted. That does not mean this applies to the sexual marketplace in general.

toothed_vagina · 2025-10-05T04:10:59+00:00

This applies to women as well. There is only so much you can do to improve your appearance. Believing that you can become attractive if you put a lot of effort into your appearance is stupid. You can't change your height, you can't change your facial structure (even maxillofacial surgery can only alter the lower part of the mandible). People hate acknowledging that our looks are mostly out of our control. I wish they would stop lying. We would all benefit from it. Plenty of women put a lot of effort into hair, makeup, skincare, diet, exercise, but they are still unattractive and ignored by men, because what truly makes a person unattractive is not fixable through the gym or hard work.

GKilat · 2025-10-04T17:11:23+00:00

Selling meat to people looking for vegetable is not a good way to sell meat no matter how high quality it is. You sell meat to people seeking for meat. In the same way, impress people looking for certain traits in a man and have those traits. No matter how good you look, you will fail impressing people who doesn't like that certain look.

Accomplished_Scale10 · 2025-10-05T13:50:18+00:00

That’s because he would still see himself as the average man. The key is to improve and couple that with getting new positive feedback loops out in the world that replace the negative ones you’ve had engrained in you by the world your entire life. This whole process takes time. It’s like you’ve been driving the wrong way your whole life, and two decades later, you finally realize that you need to turn around.

All that subconscious self image stuff is real. The world is your mirror. You can’t improve yourself, but still hate what you see in the mirror (based on your resentment due to past experiences), and then expect that to change overnight.

My ugly ducklings out there know what I mean. When you make a massive shift, grow into your looks, etc. and the world starts treating you differently, you see that all this shit is fake and superficial. It takes time to wrap your head around that and get used to it. That’s the part ppl miss.

It’s like that quote from The Office. I think he said something like “Everything is sex. There is no product, just sex.”

Jake0024 · 2025-10-06T02:00:51+00:00

It's kind of funny you put all these years of observation in but never realized:

Women are attracted to physical features, not just clothes and style
Women might have different taste in men than you

ctrl_f_sauce · 2025-10-04T15:34:23+00:00

“Sharpness” is only ATTRACTIVE to women who value sharpness. Sharpness does remove some reflags for women who aren’t attracted to sharpness. If you become too sharp, you may broadcast new reflags, like vanity or try-hard.

If you’re a 7, you can be a 7 who appears homeless or like you have an enjoyable life. If you’re a 3, you will look like a 3 in a suit. If you’re a 9, you will look like a 9 in a smoking circle by the homeless shelter.

llamaface69420 · 2025-10-04T17:37:17+00:00

“Dressing up” and having style are 2 completely different things and I think a lot of men get hung up on that. They think they are looking good dressing up but actually look wack. And an “effortlessly cool” look isn’t effortless

Prize_Willow_5325 · 2025-10-04T10:02:33+00:00

If your an average man 5'6-5'11, working out to the point of noticeable abs, v-taper, and good vascularity will make you look better. Same for a hairstyle and type that fits your face, and other things. Heck I even have looked at male models videos and they recommend good tips like using an eyelash curler or a basic exfoliating routine all things that are pretty basic, also smell is a large one and well the cologne brand doesn't matter smelling nice does.

antariusz · 2025-10-04T16:40:57+00:00

I used prohormones (steroids) and was fairly consistent with my workout routine for a long period of time and it absolutely worked

When redpill says "work on your appearance" it means, get swoll bro

Muscles are not an immutable characteristic. They can can be improved upon, they are not something you are born with.

Valuable_Lab2977 · 2025-10-06T06:40:37+00:00

Average men have no shot in the western dating world because they cannot grow taller.

rando_dud · 2025-10-04T15:19:58+00:00

You mentioned the physique above all.. but the physique is mutable.

Most men can eat well and exercise regularly to improve their physique.

Most men stand to gain in attractiveness by maxing their fitness.

iamatwork24 · 2025-10-05T10:38:42+00:00

lol doesn’t change anything for the type of women who frequent nightclubs. Which I’m completely good on those types of women. They were fun when I went through that phase tho.

Holiday_Nebula5917 · 2025-10-11T13:52:18+00:00

100% You can maximize your looks but it's not gonna cut it. You can acquire wealth to buy sex/emotional simulation but not love.

AFuzzyMuffin · 2025-10-05T00:05:55+00:00

Bro I think most people realize that at this point. The bar is in hell all women want is a nice body at least to get in the door lmao why do we guys get upset over this?

Siukslinis_acc · 2025-10-05T06:00:14+00:00

Maybe for an aberage man the appearance is less of a problem? Maybe the problem lies more in how they move, how they talk, confidence, etc? And those things can be changed, but it is a long and hard process.

OMWSpuds · 2025-10-05T06:23:58+00:00

This is absolute crazy talk. You're saying the average guy, who is skinny-fat, soft-looking, chubby, or/if not straight up fat, who puts zero effort into grooming, skincare, will notice little to zero difference if he lifts, becomes fit, gets a cool hairstyle, clears up his skin and dresses better? Inb4 what about the face the face can also benefit tremendously from leaning out and clear skin, especially for men where lower bf and angularity suit even more than it does women.

There are things that matter equally if not more like charisma and social skills, but before we even get to that there's a ton of room for improvement for most men just on physical aesthetics alone.

Suspicious_Glove7365 · 2025-10-04T13:14:43+00:00

The sharply dressed men you describe don’t seem attractive at all in a bar or nightclub setting. Are we there for a business meeting or are we there to party? Some men hear “dress better” and “groom better” from women and they think it means they can’t be casual. It means they need to work harder to understand what style and what grooming works the best on them. And men are generally really bad at understanding that that is. It’s the same reason why women are better at taking photos than men.

Lemon_gecko · 2025-10-04T08:07:22+00:00

Not to start this again, but you've admitted a lot of times that you suck at picking up social queues and have no idea how women show interest even if it directed at you, so why should we trust your observations about others when you can't see everything and your conclusions could be based on whatever you want but not reality. I'm not trying to be bitter here but maybe you should spend your time working on yourself and social skills instead of creating post after post where you argue about something you don't know.

Outside_Memory5703 · 2025-10-04T12:56:23+00:00

Just because you aren’t the 1-5% doesn’t mean improvement has no effect

Otherwise, we wouldn’t care about glow-ups

The other half of “be attractive” is “don’t be unattractive”

xxTheMagicBulleT · 2025-10-05T07:08:59+00:00

Honestly very true. As a person that has worked as a bartender. In a busy night club for a bunch of years.

Women always want the men that they see other women struggle to catch.

When I make a lot of mix drinks a lot of alcohol and women like to flirt with me a lot. I always turn them down nicely. It just emboldened women to try harder in a lot of cases.

So dont matter what many men do if you to easy to catch women wil not see you worth the chase.

Many women rather be the 19 in a long line of women trying to get a guy that the guy keep rejecting or show no commitment in. Then settle for a dude that has all his attention for her alone.

In many way its true the opposite way. Men would rather want a girl thats not easy to get easy to sleep with cause it shows they value purity and value relationship much more.

Why in many ways the views are complete opposites of each other when it comes to value of long-term relationships.

But yea women are driven to chase when the challenge is not with the men it self but with the sisterhood. They want the brag of getting with the guy none of the other women could get with. Women value the sisterhood brag more then most men or love in this day and age.

Why yes in a lot of ways your looks and how you dress and stuff don't matter. If 1 or a few girls show interest in you and you reject them. It makes women wild and make other women wanna compete. Like your some shiny rare Pokémon they most have. That in a way show to them self and others that she is above other girls its some bragging right.

Much the same what men also have. Men and women are not really that different honestly in a ton of ways. Just one thing side has disgust for that behavior and finds it a poor quality for a long term relationship and the other does not care About it.

So one does hurt there relationship prospects in the future and the other does not.

But women like to give men shit for a lot of things that women do them self at mass too. Cause I have seen my fair share of debauchery but women are far more mask off about it and have no shame about doing so. Cause society is no longer shameful about being like that. Its more strict on the men then the women so makes women get away with more and makes also that women gonna be a lot more forward and mask off about it.

Probably is not most women but all the ones that go to clubs and bars. Would say 80%+ for sure competition among women for men is a whole lot higher then the seeking love or romance. Its more about trying to get what most of the sisterhood could not. Then looking for love or any romance. The amount of times nasty women try and offer me some sex behind the bar or in the toilet Is round out nasty. And often show how they not really worth any long-term relationship material. But for some reason having a strong sense of what you want and don't want and not waving from it makes many women try and compete even harder. Actually exhausting how backwards they often are.

The more you say no the more they desire you. The more you give them everything they want the more they are bored and the quicker they will discarded you. So in a lot of ways its shows its often much beter for the relationship if a women is the one more in love then the men. If you want the relationship to last long-term.

But damn I can make books of all the weird stories of women in clubs and bars and outside it. Especially the church girls that live a sheltered life and roach out in secret when they "sleep out a a frends house" and partying and doing all the things that there parents forbid them. One of those type girls was like my first real love. Ages ago.

selecadm · 2025-10-04T14:37:12+00:00

in HS female classmate offered to choose clothes for me so that I am not a virgin (her words). Effectively saying "change your style and women will fuck you". To be fair, that's on top of conventional attractiveness and 6'2" height.

idoze · 2025-10-04T12:14:56+00:00

You've got it backwards.

You're saying a 10/10 man doesn't have to put in any effort. That's fair.

A guy of average height who's overweight, dresses poorly and smells bad can 100% make some big improvements that will make them significantly more attractive. I've literally seen this with my own eyes and nose.

Also, for the Nth time, not all women circle the same men, especially in clubs. I doubt your story in its entirety, because I see women leaving clubs with all kinds of men, all the time. Either that or you're just very unobservant.

And I'm almost certain that - as with many of these posts - you have a warped idea of what an "average" man even is. Average men typically pair off with average women, as a walk down the street or in the park will tell you.

freekin-bats11 · 2025-10-04T13:19:34+00:00

I feel like personality and charm is missing from this analysis.....

Professional_Cold463 · 2025-10-04T08:21:59+00:00

This is called peacocking

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ThrowRAGlobeVase · 2025-10-04T21:16:11+00:00

I feel like it absolutely makes a difference, but I know the type you’re talking about.. it comes across as too try hard, and in a club or busy bar the things that tend to stand out are being a head taller than others etc.

I think the calculus is different in different settings.

Former-Community5818 · 2025-10-06T01:34:02+00:00

Because homies would be male bimbos, himbos. Its like they fail to understand that women arent as shallow and care about looks.

ResidentSorbet · 2025-10-06T16:55:57+00:00

tldr: go to the gym

No_Performance_7598 · 2025-10-06T21:53:51+00:00

I never really thought about it. I am a average man and I keep myself clean. I have to say though. I shave my head because I have tattoos there. I also have piercings so I definitely have to make sure I am clean

AwarenessFree4432 · 2025-10-09T00:40:13+00:00

When i was in my 20s i got pretty girls at clubs and through friends , i was a decent looking guy 5’10 but no brad pitt , i just simply would approach and talk , i honestly think men just dont approach women enough but now im in 30s and i really feeling the effects of being rejected by hot girls cus i work a minimum wage job . I still get girls but no 8s or 9s, all the good ones get wifed up in their 20s , when ur in ur 30s ur gna get the left overs the crazies , thats why i got a 25 yr old from over seas

ConstipatedAvocado · 2025-10-04T10:16:12+00:00

Nah.

Because being in shape correlates strongly with a solid personal sense of style and good hygiene. If someone is putting in effort in the gym, they're often more likely to put some effort into their appearance as well.

Also people need to realise that the autistic gym bro whose only appeal is the fact that he has muscular arms despite his pizza face and lack of social skills is largely an internet/reddit phenomenon.

I'm someone with an insane physique, the type that people sit up and notice or run up and ask me about. Whilst I invest heavily in clothes, on a night out, you wont find me dressed in anything elaborate as the less clothes I have on the more I get to actually show my physique. But good clothing, smell and hair are MASSIVELY important to any half decent looking woman you fraternise with (and OP it sounds like u dont fraternise with women at all). The only thing is that men with bad hygiene/dress sense arent even on the radar at all. Last year for my friends birthday, we went to high end London club, first time in years I've been in a venue which legit had more women than men...attractive women at that. But it was $2000 for a table to get in. You legit think the kind of guy who can pay $2k for a table is the guy who doesnt wear cologne to the club????

A lot of you dudes are legit losers, extrapolating out of the dive bars and local town shitholes you attend and thinking because Jeb gets by on his beer belly and boisterousness, it must mean women like that on the whole. Just LOL at thinking you're going to walk into any half decent establishment in NY/LA/Miami/Houston and not be judged by women for your clothing or your personal hygiene.

Pure-Ad-8175 · 2025-10-04T13:54:00+00:00

Men don't typically ask women for advice on how to be "the most noticed."

Men typically ask for advice on how to go from no options to any options. In those cases, changes to grooming can make a difference.

A great hair cut doesn't make a guy popular. But a shitty haircut can be a turnoff to the options an average guy could have.

HalfwaydonewithEarth · 2025-10-04T12:34:30+00:00

Those women go for the wrong traits. You have to go for the men that have no interest in dance clubs.

Bouldershoulders12 · 2025-10-04T20:57:17+00:00

To play devils advocate you’re only using the nightclub as an example. Only the top 5% will really stand out in those settings.

In regular social circles you can be top 20-33% and stand out. It’s about relativity . Putting effort into your apparences should be for you anyways

NewIndependence7446 · 2025-10-14T20:56:04+00:00

they'd just change the goalposts.

Whole_Truck_3324 · 2025-10-17T08:38:37+00:00

Not true, ALL of the men I’ve come across stink. Like odor that should not be present for at least 3 days. Burns my nostril hairs too often.

GrassStatusTouched · 2025-10-17T14:48:42+00:00

Limb lengthening surgery and tren are basic competence standards for men in 2025

Creepy_Laugh_4124 · 2025-10-25T10:44:44+00:00

Do yourself up but don't be a 'people-pleaser'.

xEyelessOnex · 2025-10-28T15:07:02+00:00

Not meaning to be a downer, but whatever happened to looking good for yourself? I used to get haircuts, had my teeth straightend and even went on a few crash diets. Women walked right past me and outright called me unattractive. It wasn't until I got married that they started flocking to me like pigs around swill. Since then I get haircuts to keep my hair in check, see a dentist as often as I can and am back to dieting and exercising for health reasons. I've even started buying clothes that make ME happy and that I feel good in. Screw looking good for anyone else.

67_SixSeven_67 · 2025-11-04T06:35:13+00:00

I disagree on the skincare, part. All else being equal, clear, homogenous, and smooth skin looks better on everyone, including men. I don't think it has anything to do with being "try hard" either because people won't notice it.

I also somewhat disagree on hair, it can affect your overall appearance depending on your craniofacial features. But of course, some craniofacial features(eye area, nose, chin) are not affected by hair. So a guy with droopy eyes, or a recessed chin, wouldn't have much to gain from hair styling.

Competitive_Swan_130 · 2025-10-04T08:08:41+00:00

Its so weird how you spend so much time people watching and creating grand narratives about peoples lives from the few minutes you watched these people.This is a trend here I've noticed and it's ridiculous on its face if you think about it. Even if you stared at them the entire time, its still not enough time to get the full picture that explains their relationships/dating trends.

Do people ever get annoyed at how much you stare at them and make up stories in your heads about what they are doing/talking about/thinking? Do they snap and say, can you tab me out man goddamn you keep staring and its time to go?

sablesalsa · 2025-10-04T09:37:37+00:00

Hard disagree. Some dudes out there genuinely do not give a fuck about their hygiene or how they look. That turns someone from "okay I could get to know you better" to a no instantly. You aren't touching me with dirty unkempt nails, you aren't kissing me if you refuse to touch lip balm, refusing to shave your head when you're losing your hair is not doing you favors, I'm not going to be seen dressed up with a man who won't put on anything other than sweatpants or basketball shorts.

Get a haircut, get a chain, maybe pierce an ear or get a tattoo (yeah I'm biased). Wear clothes that flatter your body and work well with each other. Put on some cologne, if you don't know about it get samples. Sephora and Ulta have colognes you can test (Dior Sauvage is popular, I like men's Gucci). Work out or do some sort of martial arts because it genuinely does make you feel good. Whether you believe me or not, you will be more attractive.

Edit: OP, in another post you also said self-improvement won't make you more attractive. So like... no growth or effort at all in anything?

addings0 · 2025-10-04T11:00:53+00:00

Appearance doesn't do much. Appearance that leads to social dominance ....

GraceOfTheNorth · 2025-10-04T17:47:40+00:00

This sounds like arguments for maintaining low standards.

Flightlessbirbz · 2025-10-04T19:00:45+00:00

I mean sure, some VS model could go to the club in a stained tshirt and sweats and still get more attention than the other women there too. But what women recognize is that it still makes a difference for the average woman, even if not for the top and bottom percentiles. But men seem to take a more “all or nothing” view of it and go with “nothing.”

ThatBitchA · 2025-10-04T15:24:06+00:00

Each bar has a different demographic.

If the bar you worked in allowed cargo shorts and jerseys, it sounds like a super causal place. So a "sharp dressed" man is going to stand out in a bad way.

Siukslinis_acc · 2025-10-04T15:50:12+00:00

Who would have thought that a person who stands out of the crowd gets the most attention? /s

wideHippedWeightLift · 2025-10-04T16:14:29+00:00

You say immutable traits and the one you mention seeing women respond to is physique.

Are you one of those "I just can't build muscle because of my genes so I'm never gonna seriously try!" folks?

Hot-Law2682 · 2025-10-04T13:09:55+00:00

Its not about competing with chad its about making yourself more attractive.

Dressing better and having clean skin does make you more attractive. Clean skin especially is a sign of physical health whereas having big pimples and acne is literally disgusting. Dressing well can help you fit into a niche dating market and just generally shows maturity.

But yes you won't be more attractive then chad. The good news is that women don't only date chad. Try to maximize your potential and dressing well and doing skincare is part of that.

gunmacc · 2025-10-04T16:11:55+00:00

Italians call this concept Sprezzatura. Learn it, master it.

Title	Average man could put more effort in his appearance and it wouldn't change a thing
Author	Crazy_Kray
Upvotes	461
Comments	617
Date	October 4, 2025 8:01 AM UTC (10 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1nxo4f1/average_man_could_put_more_effort_in_his/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/average-man-could-put-more-effort-in-his.1563418 https://theredarchive.com/post/1563418

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