What argument here has changed your mind?

Exciting_East7365 · 2021-06-16T11:21:26+00:00

It seems like the men and women on here hardly concede any arguments. Have there been any posts or discussions that have changed your view at all? I'll...

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I guess I don't think there's anything wrong with disliking the fact that people treat you badly even if you'd do the same thing in their shoes.

Say you were a factory worker who hates the way your boss overworks you, gives you no healthcare, and makes you work in dangerous conditions. But let's say you'd act the same way towards workers if you were a rich factory owner - because doing all those things means more money for you. I still think the factory worker can still be angry at his boss. In fact, this is probably the ONLY way that the workers can change their working conditions.

Or if you were a rich landowner in the 1700s and all your friends were using slaves. Maybe you'd have slaves, too. I think it's fine for slaves to hate their slaveowner, even if slaves would act exactly the same way as their slaveowner does if they were in his shoes.

Sometimes it's okay to be angry at unfair conditions - even if you'd act the same way in their shoes. If you somehow become "okay" with the unfairness towards you, then you also lose any hope of changing the system.

"You'd do the same thing in their shoes" is not a complete argument. It's half an argument masquerading as a complete argument.

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I think you're not looking at the right issue, since you're framing it as "men are angry that they can't all get the 10/10 hot girl". The thing that guys get mad about on the PPD isn't that they don't all get the hottest girls. It's the inequality that exists between men and women who are basically at the same "level". Which is why guys mention the OKCupid study about women finding 80% of men below average, while men think that only 50% of women are below average. Or if you make a fake Tinder profile of equally good-looking men and women, then women get far more attention.

I suppose that's not the complete issue, of course, since guys on PPD also get mad about Chads getting lots of attention (e.g. all the Chadfishing experiments with hot guys and dumpster-fire bios that make them look like crap). Or the number of times they mention serial killers getting female groupies. And all the soul-crushing rejections that below-average guys have to endure.

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Arguments and comments like yours have really changed my mind. I used to think males were just like me, other than the dangly bits. That they probably were just misunderstood, that the vast majority of them were kind people who were set in boxes by societal expectations.

I now and also to a certain extent back then understand males for what they are. They absolutely, if they could, would love to oppress women. They look back on the past as "why don't I have a bangmaid?!" instead of thinking, I'm happy that changed. They only value women for sex and they do not think of women as actual people with an inner monologue and thoughts of their own. They don't consider that in our heads WE are the MC. They think us expressing unhappiness or not being pleasing enough is a fault.

I'm actually OK with whatever it is you think about women and about experiences you've never had, because I realize you are a human being and probably prone to navel gazing as most humans are. I'm just shocked at the amount of vitriol and outright actual hatred (not lol and eww) but actual groups of males coming together and instead of going their own way, lamenting how much they would love to physically hurt women, take away their civil rights, put them in rape pens etc.

In other words, males are depraved.

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I think the government taxing productive citizens in order to fund welfare entitlements for less productive citizens is theft. Yes there is the military, courts etc, you know that is not what I am talking about. There are very many social programs, funded through taxes, which have the stated purpose to redistribute wealth, and reduce inequality. That is, it is stated openly that certain citizens will be paying in and others will be recipients. This is different from the military or the police which are just essential services that everybody benefits from equally, and which we had before there even was an income tax. I know you perceive this distinction as well as I, you can stop playing dumb.

The reduction of inequality is treated as an absolute good in most or all western nations. It's discussed as just something that we should aim for purely for it;s own sake, and such discussion is actionable in government policy. If economic inequality is ipso facto an evil, you can't really argue it's some kind of crazy stretch that the stark inquality on the sexual market should be seen in the same light.

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Economic equality involves people as well. When you take money from somebody, you are taking the fruits of their labour, that is their time, which is their life. You're a welder making 100k a year, busting ass, the government takes money from you to give to somebody who works way less hard, or not at all, this is theft. It means that for some portion of your working time, you are in fact working for somebody else. There is a difference here, it just is not a significant one, it is entirely cosmetic. The difference is that economic value is fungible, each dollar is the same as every other dollar, and it's divisible. This allows for a degree of separation. We can take x% of your income, throw it into a giant communal pot, and then some it goes to pays for roads, some it goes to pay for the army, some for the courts, and then some of it gets given to people who are poorer than you because inequality is mean. The thing is, who knows where any particular dollar goes? That doesn't actually change the moral dynamic of what is going on, it just adds a layer of ambiguity which makes it easier to stomach. The government could just assign you a poor person and make you legally liable for their food and rent, so for part of your work week you are basically a slave for somebody else. That would be exactly the same system, just with the ambiguity removed, people would feel a lot more strongly about that.

Sexual redistribution doesn't allow for any ambiguity, there has to be a one on one interaction. We can't tax away some percentage of your sexual opportunity, collect it into a communal fund and then dole it out to the sexually poor. That is the only difference, like I said, this is purely a cosmetic difference. The fundamental moral dynamics of the proposal are identical in the case of economic or sexual redistribution. Finally, I would like to place a reminder here that I am not in favour of sexual redistribution, but then I am not in favour of economic redistribution either. My point is that in an environment where economic redistribution is taken as axiomatically good, I can completely see why there are people arguing that tolerance for the massive inequalities in the sexual marketpalce is hypocritical.

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I thought originally that women's feelings towards "alpha" men were basically how men felt towards the average woman. I get now that lust and attraction as a sensation are greatly diminished for women. It's not really that they desire top tier men but that their lack of desire for any men by default lets them appraise partners objectively and not be influenced by carnal or emotional impulses.

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[–]NarniaFox 90 points91 points92 points 5 years ago (144 children) | Copy Link

I can't point out a certain argument or post, but I've changed my beliefs and attitudes to certain things.

I've become more aware about men's issues. They have terrible rates of suicide, alcoholism, drug usages, crime committing and homelessness. And I do think that these stats show some systemic issue, we're doing something wrong and large numbers of men suffer from it. Male gender role and conditioning them to play it harm both genders.

I've become more accepting towards the ideas of paper abortions and DNA testing. The first has its own issues and it should be thoroughly discussed and the second could potentially bring benefits to a whole society. I see nothing wrong in having a DNA list of all citizens, so we could not only establish correct fatherhood most of the time, but also look for donors, criminals, relatives etc.

[–]iamthemovie1992 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]AntWillFortune15Treacherous Snake 💜 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aldabruzzo -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

No, "I want a DNA test" is not saying either of those things. Of course, a woman will see it that way, because she demands to be viewed as above reproach even when she's not.

The reason women get so pissed about this is because they know they've done something wrong. If she has done nothing wrong, she has nothing to worry about. If she has nothing to hide, then there's no reason to get angry, because it's all going to come out as she thinks it will. Plus, she should be happy to put my mind at ease.

If she won't agree to this, she doesn't love me and doesn't care about me and wants to use me and lie to me and get away with it. So that sword cuts both ways.

Why do women think they should get everything in relationships; and men should get nothing? Why do you think men should compromise on everything, and women should take everything they want with no compromise?

[–] AntWillFortune15 Treacherous Snake 💜 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–] Aldabruzzo 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–] AntWillFortune15 Treacherous Snake 💜 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–] Aldabruzzo 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

No, I don't need to reread it. I understand - men get nothing, women get everything, and then get to punish men for wanting something.

She's pissed because she might have done something wrong.

OK, she thinks I'm accusing her of cheating. OK. If she resists, then I am totally justified in concluding that it is because she doesn't love me and doesn't care about me and just wants to use me. She feels bad. I feel bad. Mutual distrust. Mutually assured destruction.

Why is it OK for her to have feelings about it, but it's not OK for me to have feelings about it?

He can have a DNA test and I wouldn’t even threaten him with a divorce for getting it. He wouldn’t know I’m divorcing him until after the fact. He can have his piece of mind and I’ll have mine after I divorce his ass. And lol bye?

Like I said...

Wow, you're just as unloving and cold and uncaring as you've just accused me of being.

I stand by that 100%.

[–] AntWillFortune15 Treacherous Snake 💜 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Except you do. Because you keep saying as if I think that men shouldn’t have DNA tests. I literally never said that. So you do need to reread.

No one said the woman should resist giving you a DNA test. I explicitly said that they should be allowed to have the test. If she does resist completely then yes she has something to hide but don’t act that they’re crazy or are trying to use you for simply being taken aback and hurt that you accused them of cheating.

Ultimately you should have the test but women are not obligated to stay with you after it comes back that you are the father. You don’t trust them. There’s no relationship. Are you going to DNA test every child? Is she supposed to suck it up and take it?

How am I cold again? Because I’d want a divorce after? Why would I stay with a man like that?

[–] Aldabruzzo 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (19 children) | Copy Link

No one said the woman should resist giving you a DNA test. I explicitly said that they should be allowed to have the test.

Just the woman protesting or saying "you think I'm cheating" IS resistance. She shouldn't say ANYTHING.

You don’t trust them. There’s no relationship.

Indeed. Because of her protestations and resistance, it's clear to me that she does not love me, does not care about me, and just wants to use me and lie to me and get away with it.

There's no relationship here because she resists giving me something I need for my own peace of mind.

Are you going to DNA test every child? Is she supposed to suck it up and take it?

Yes, and yes. If I have to suck up paying for it and supporting the children, then I have a right to know that the children I'm supporting are mine. And I have a right to know it by any means I deem necessary and proper. You take my shilling, you dance to my tune.

How am I cold again?

By protesting, resisting, and divorce raping, you're proving you don't love him, don't care about him, and just want to use him and lie to him.

Why would I stay with a man like that?

Not my problem, really. Just goes to show what women really think of their husbands.

[–] AntWillFortune15 Treacherous Snake 💜 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Lol that is completely nuts...

Acknowledging that you think she is cheating is not resisting. That’s how you feel, why can’t you just be a man and say that? Resisting would be saying “no” to having a DNA test. And she also doesn’t need to say it but that would be how she feels. You think she shouldn’t feel that way?

No...there’s no relationship because you’re accusing her of cheating on you. It’s clear that you do not love or trust her and will demand a DNA test for every child you have with her. That’s not a relationship I would want to be in. I keep fucking saying they should have the DNA test but you keep moving the goalpost on what you think “resisting” is.

Omg...you can have that but women do not have to continue a relationship with you. Just admit you don’t trust women, you’re too busy doing mental gymnastics.

How am I protesting when I literally said they could have the DNA test? You’re just making stuff up and putting words in my mouth. How is feeling hurt that he’s accusing me of cheating means that I don’t care about him and want to use him? Seems like you have some unresolved issues are projecting...HARD.

And lol I’m cold because I no longer want to be in a relationship with a man that will accuse me of cheating on him? I also never said anything about divorce raping. Quit your fear mongering. There is no reason the relationship can’t just end amicably.

You’re just making up reasons to be upset at this point.

[–] Aldabruzzo -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago * (17 children) | Copy Link

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[–] wtknight Blue-ish Married Passport Bro ♂︎ [ M ] 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] Alt_Er_Midlertidig Red Pill Woman-KAM -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] Aldabruzzo 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] Alt_Er_Midlertidig Red Pill Woman-KAM -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] Aldabruzzo 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not sure what the problem is here?

I said at least 10 times what the problem is.

By protesting, resisting, and divorce raping, you're proving you don't love him, don't care about him, and just want to use him and lie to him.

you're proving you don't love him, don't care about him, and just want to use him and lie to him.

you're proving you don't love him, don't care about him, and just want to use him and lie to him.

I wrote it 3 times so you can see what the problem is. Got it now?

No one accused her of cheating. He says he wants the test to make sure the child is his, particularly since if it is his he's on the hook for 18 years of child support.

Yes, she's entitled to leave. Thereby proving she doesn't love or care about him, and just wants to use him and lie to him.

THAT is what you REFUSE to acknowledge.

You can have the last word. I don't want to "debate" this anymore. I am right, you are wrong, and you'll never convince me of your point of view. I've already considered your point of view, it is wrong, it is self centered, it is gynocentric and doesn't take what the man wants into consideration at all. Hence, it is wrong.

Have at it.

[–] Alt_Er_Midlertidig Red Pill Woman-KAM -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you're proving you don't love him, don't care about him, and just want to use him and lie to him.

No, you just don't want someone who thinks you are cheating on them. I can't love someone who thinks I'm cheating, I can't trust someone who thinks I'm a cheater and I most certainly won't care about someone who thinks that way about me.

He says he wants the test to make sure the child is his, particularly since if it is his he's on the hook for 18 years of child support.

The only way the child isn't his, is if she cheated. Ergo, she is being accused of cheating.

Why would you even be with someone you suspect is/might be cheating on you? Just dump them and find someone more closely aligned to your expectation of monogamy.

I don't want to "debate" this anymore. I am right, you are wrong, and you'll never convince me of your point of view.

Tell me you're male without saying you're a male. lol

[–] SpecificEntry 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This doesn't explain why you want secrecy lol

> The reason women get so pissed about this is because they know they've done something wrong. If she has done nothing wrong, she has nothing to worry about. If she has nothing to hide, then there's no reason to get angry, because it's all going to come out as she thinks it will. Plus, she should be happy to put my mind at ease.

If you truly believe this then wouldn't you want the DNA test to be know? After you'd be able to tell from her reaction that she did something wrong. So why the secrecy?

I think you're aware that even the woman with nothing to hide would be unhappy at the implication that you think she cheated.

> If she won't agree to this, she doesn't love me and doesn't care about me and wants to use me and lie to me and get away with it. So that sword cuts both ways.

All the more reason that it shouldn't be hidden, so that you can determine if she loves you based on her reaction.

> Why do women think they should get everything in relationships; and men should get nothing? Why do you think men should compromise on everything, and women should take everything they want with no compromise?
The compromise would be mandated DNA tests with both parent's knowledge. You're the one who won't compromise and seem to want everything your own way.

[–]SamGlass 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–] wtknight Blue-ish Married Passport Bro ♂︎ [ M ] 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rouxgaroux00 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DespondentColors1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

No. It’s her child. Just man up and admit you don’t trust her. It’s not the states job to intervene in your domestic dramas.

[–]Aldabruzzo 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Yes. She claims I'm the father. So she claims it's my child too. If I am the father, I have as much right to determine that child's parenting and future as she does, if not more (because it's my goddamn money on the line).

I have a right to make sure that's the case before I get my checkbook out. Since I'm being called on to pay, I get to know whatever the fuck I want to know, and to find it out by any means necessary, including subversion, subterfuge, and fraud if I deem it necessary.

It's really funny how women demand the state's intervention in and regulation of EVERY GODDAMN THING women want; but when men want or need something you all scream about "domestic drama" and "civil liberties" and "people's rights" and "slippery slopes" and "right to privacy" and "we can't have that kind of oppressive state action". Lulz.

[–]DespondentColors7 points 5 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Then request a dna test. There’s no reason to keep that a secret. How do you deny a mother access to her child’s medical records. I don’t even think that’s ethical or legal. Just say you want to mistrust her without any consequences to the relationship. I again wonder what the state interest is in helping you do that.

[–]Aldabruzzo 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You don't deny her access. She'll find out... just not until the test is done and results are in.

Ooh, now we're all concerned about "state interest". Funny how when women want or need something, the state MUST provide it. But when something serves men's interests, men must prove the state has an interest in assisting men to secure it. Just admit you hate men and want to advantage women and sandbag men. You want to help women at men's expense.

Let's assume we must prove state interest. OK - the state has an interest in making sure the RIGHT man is paying support and in doing substantial justice. If we must have men paying, the RIGHT man must be made to pay. The state has an interest in getting this right from the beginning. A mandatory DNA test bears a close relationship to an important governmental interest, that being making sure that children are being supported and that children know their biological paternity.

[–] SylvestorTalone 3 points 4 points 5 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DespondentColors4 points 5 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I already said you should be able to get the testing without the mothers approval. I just didn’t know the reason for or how it would work keeping it secret from the mom. Unless you have part custody and take the child when it’s your time. You should be able to do that I guess.

[–]Sid_Insidious 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ManzBearzPigzIzRealz 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DespondentColors3 points 5 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I’m only talking about the aspect of not telling her. Him being able to get the test is fine.

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[–] DreamsOfWishes 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm asking for one thing and you're asking to give them everything.

Yes.

What's wrong with the government requiring a private test before requiring child support?

Well, for one, I thought we wanted to help all fathers not just from monetary involvement but also from emotional investment and the devestation of finding out that your child isn't yours.

So mandatory testing when we sign the birth certificate.

But apparantly we are only going to increase the amount of testing during a divorce. You are aware that if you don't allow child support at that time, you also cut off the rights of that father and those rights will be going to the bio-dad? There are plenty of dads that divorce cheaters that know the risk but don't want to know after they're already emotionally invested in the child. And if you test THEN, you are gonna cut off THEIR choice.

I think you are a bit too focussed on your own fears and are not looking at the results ON MEN that your suggestion has.

[–]NarniaFox 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–] mementoEstis 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (5 children) | Copy Link

That’s not really a fair argument, because it assumes there is no middle ground.

No one is suggesting that people should consider behaviors that you have a reasonable belief won’t lead to injury, such as eating at a restaurant, as “risky”.

If we are going to be specific, off the top of my head are three big cases:

Choosing to engage in full contact sports, gun sports, and other reckless physical pursuits that dramatically increase your chances of a long lasting physical injury.

I’ll admit I fall under this category, I have hobbies athletic and recreational that I should have to carry insurance for.

Companies that hire employees for jobs that have a chance of serious injury, such as construction, should be required to carry and pay for insurance for their employees. The taxpayer shouldn’t have to subsidize a company’s choices in terms of enforcing adequate safety when performing a risky job. The company should have to bare the costs associated with paying for the long term injuries their employment causes, incentivizing them to be safe.

And the big one, obesity. Obesity is controllable, and a personal failure. I have no desire to pay for the health complications of people who choose to consume far more alcohol and food then their body can process.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] mementoEstis 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Because I don't view the concept of rights remotely the way you do.

Rights are things we may do without being opposed. The constitution lists our inalienable rights as "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness". You have a right to exist without some one trying to destroy you, a right to be free from undue hinderance in your business, and a right to do things that make you happy that don't impose upon the happiness of others.

The core concept is that you should be free to try to make a good life for yourself. The deal you strike with society is that you fundamentally agree to sacrifice portions of your freedom (choosing to follow the law, and to abide by the common rules of your neighbors) in exchange for greater access to opportunity.

However, all rights afforded by this bargain are opportunities, not provisions.

You do not have the right to others being responsible for your choices, you do not have the right to other's labor or other's care. You do not have the right to offload the burden of your choices on your neighbors.

In property law this is called a "nuisance", you can't do something with your property that imposes an unfair cost on your neighbors ability to comfortably enjoy their property.

To the concept of rights, claiming healthcare as a "right" when you engage in preventable behavior is saying "I don't want to be responsible for this choice, but I want the tax burden of my peers and the labor burden placed upon healthcare professionals increased to offset MY choices".

It's fundamentally selfish, greedy, and narcissistic. It says you really don't care what cost others have to bare for your choices and you are happy to make choices without any consideration to the suffering of others.

None of us are perfect, but we should have to fairly accept that if we engage in a cost, we should be responsible for it's payment and not a stranger we can thrust it upon. I am perfectly ok with public money being used to pay for the upkeep of random acts of life we can't control for. I would proudly pay every dime necessary to pay for those who receive a traumatic brain injury from a car accident they didn't cause, or from slipping on ice on a cold winters morning, or from slipping on a flight of stairs.

But I also choose to engage in behavior I willingly accept increases my injury risks and potential healthcare costs, and should be responsible for the insurance necessary to cover that risk. If I tear a muscle in jiujitsu or I trip with my shotgun and need a hole patched up in my leg, I should have before engaging in those pursuits have paid for the chance that might occur, and you should in no way be burdened by me.

Rights are our shield against others imposing against us, and robbing us of our choice, our dignity and what we have built.

Rights are not our privileges to have others carry us like a princeling on a palanquin because we chose not to care about our own behavior.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] mementoEstis 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And I believe in paying for the others listed, but not the alcoholic.

I also view your definition of "universal human rights" as a culturally couched artifact, and one neither universal or fully human. Many peoples and groups have very different definitions of rights, I listed and explained my own and the one from those in my community, and you barreled on with claiming the one from your culture is "the" correct version.

Your imposition of a European stance on how people should live and what should be considered a right might be the most European thing of all. Not everyone wants to live that way or according to those rules, and while you can fairly argue the merits of different systems, you can't assert something like "Plus, access to medicine is a part of universal human rights." in good faith, because it's saying your cultural way of doing things is de facto correct and everyone else should bow down.

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[–]Infammo2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

I've become more aware about men's issues. They have terrible rates of suicide, alcoholism, drug usages, crime committing and homelessness. And I do think that these stats show some systemic issue, we're doing something wrong and large numbers of men suffer from it. Male gender role and conditioning them to play it harm both genders.

I think this is more of an "evolution working as intended" sort of thing rather than social conditioning. There always has been and always will be an enormous amount of male losers.

[–]SadismxNo Pill 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Infammo2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

As long as people want things there are going to be those who fail at attaining them and are miserable as a result. Regardless of whether you want to blame it on capitalism or whatever, people will always always have socially preferable standards based on a some metric, be it intelligence, sociability, looks, wealth etc... and men are going to disproportionately fail much more than women due to them having greater variability. We were born to be separated into wheat and chaff. From the Judicial system to the dating market, screening out male undesirables is a reoccurring pattern across society.

[–]SadismxNo Pill 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AtaCome7821"Miraculous! Simply the best!" 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Infammo2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, society would call them evil. There's no motivation to protect the reputations or explain the reasoning for men who wash out or fall behind. Quite the opposite in fact.

[–]AtaCome7821"Miraculous! Simply the best!" 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I said that to point out how retarded your objectivist argument is. Of course there's none and that's the point. What's evil is purely subjective, in nature, there's only winners and losers, no what's fair and what's not, so if those men at the bottom get smart and find other ways to compete, then no one can say, "that's Evil" because it wouldn't really matter since it's just "Nature".

There are many things that are "Only Natural", but things are done about them, policies are made and steps are taken to help those who suffer because of those things and people don't just say " Oh that's only natural" because if they did, then I could ask why the fuck do we live in a society then? Why aren't women raped and why aren't there any slaves? Since it's only survival of the fittest, why is conflict and violence wrong?

I'm libertarian but even I hate this stupid argument, of course something should be done for those who are unfortunate in society, otherwise we can't justify being a Society in the first fucking place.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] AtaCome7821 "Miraculous! Simply the best!" 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not talking about safety nets, I'm talking about removing the stupid laws that prevent the vast majority of men from competing fairly, we can start with affirmative action and quotas, either get rid of the current grading systems used by the majority of the free world and while we're at it overhaul the entire education system.

Most normal everyday men have accepted that they aren't going to get laid, they know they aren't going to live exciting lives, but despite all that they work for themselves, they don't mind paying for prostitutes once in a while, so IMO, a lot of men's problems are purely economic and can be solved if society removes all of those unnecessary barriers to these men getting opportunities they deserve. One dude even said to me "Bro if I can get a decent paying job I'm golden, I'll get to help my parents out, pay for a hotel and some hookers once a while and go on backpack trips for vacation, so I don't really give AF if people think I'm a loser." That dude is now working as an electrician, makes a decent living and did everything he said he'd do, despite failing in Grade 12 and having to retake his final exams, despite all of the B.S and depression that he's had to endure, he made it, but he's fortunate, many dudes aren't like him and will simply accept their fates. But we all know nobody's gonna do anything about it since no one gives a fuck about men's issues.

[–]mementoEstis 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–] Sadismx No Pill 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago * (0 children) | Copy Link

During the Middle Ages most of the morality is based around religion, duty and a willingness to die for your king. They didn’t really have an infrastructure that would maintain the lives of a bunch of worthless people, I’m sure there were village idiots, but more often than not people would blame the king if poverty became widespread(taxes) not each other. I don’t think people were really lazy in the way we think of it, life was too hard to allow it. I think the only time there would have been losers is in court, maybe guys who ended up marrying some random girl rather than advancing their position or something. I wouldn’t compare this to losers from modern times though, it reminds me of NBA superstars talking shit to their teammates because they can’t spend as much money as they can.

Now when it comes to Rome I would agree with you, but I also think that Rome was as close to capitalism as they could at the time. The main thing holding them back was that people were more aware that money doesn’t really hold any value when shit hits the fan

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD11 points 5 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

The promiscuous women I know have a lot of abandonment and codependency issues which they try to canalize by using sex for self validation. One of them told me a while ago "people told me being promiscuous was supposed to be fun" and we talked about her using sex to fill the void.

I guess its like using drugs or alcohol to suppress your feelings.

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[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 5 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

The naturalness of a behavior doesn't really justify it. We don't condone violence or rape, for example. They are part of the "reality" and "evolution" you speak of too. I understand that some moral obligations are greater than others. For instance, I agree with the notion that we shouldn't take away women's sexual or reproductive rights even if it led to a greater overall happiness among society as a whole. But the current situation isn't something that is desirable either. As I see it, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I just don't see how that can't of alienation (however unintended it might be) is going to be a positive for us a society. People (both men and women) in Japan (which seems to be in an advanced stage of a malignancy that we're in) are unhappy. It seems that limiting people's freedom might be correlated with long-term happiness.

On an additional note, "There is no fairness in dating." is what makes a lot of men want to opt out. You wouldn't want to keep playing on a slot machine once you realized that it was rigged against you.

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[–]miketrance 12 points13 points14 points 5 years ago [recovered] (132 children) | Copy Link

Men aren’t thirstier than women though and a whole lot of women who thought this are now in their mid 30’s finding this out. Then their only recourse is radical feminism and where have all the good men gone articles.

There are certain age groups that women do better but it is a small window of time that quickly vanished. This whole “women have the upper hand” thing is a smoke screen and we are seeing more and more how untrue it is as the world becomes full of thirty and 40 something year old bitter single women.

It only SEEMS that women are in higher demand when they are young because they have at least two generations of men seeking their attention possibly three. Men their own age, men one generation older and a select few men of two generations older than them. So basic supply and demand dictates a mismatched supply means exaggerated demand but this demand is only exaggerated because once most of these women age out of the desired range very few men are interested.

[–]GridReXXredder than dudes (lady mod) 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PeskyHijinks 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SamGlass 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm so glad you're acknowledging the multiple generations. It was so annoying and confusing as a child, then as an adolescent, then as an adult, for males outside of my generation to be trying to engage in coitus with me. Super distracting, distressing, and discouraging. When I think of how much incels get mad at women I'm confused as to why they arent more mad at their male elders who try to dip into their mate-pool. Like, I'd have been far more receptive toward boys/men my own age over the course of my life were it not for the vehicular stalking and other scary shit performed by older men (thus eliciting off-puttishness and hyper-vigilance in my behavior). Started when I was 9/10.

It's true I get far less overt attention as a 30yo than I did as a 13yo. But in my view my age weeds out the weirdos. I prefer a man who gravitates toward maturity and stability over those men who want to boink children and young adults. I don't feel desperate, I feel relieved lol. If a woman or man feels desperate at 30+ they prob felt that way 30- too.

[–]WillFred213 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SamGlass 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Due to evolution?

Women aren't generally at liberty to go exclusively for who they're attracted to. Males (among primates at least, including humans; in some other species it's not so) engage in mate-guarding to stop females from pursuing those they find attractive. Older males mate-guard younger females and prevent them from pursuing the younger males. That's why when old fuddyduddy fuckface is at work, the self-possessed female is fucking around with the poolboy. It's an old trope for a reason.

It's also generally understood that one of the main purposes of warfare is the killing off younger males - older males in leadership roles arrange for these bloodbaths not only for purposes of securing material resources for themselves and their kin but also for purposes of securing greater access to / limiting competition for... reproductive resources (coochie).

[–]WillFred213 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD16 points 5 years ago [recovered] (111 children) | Copy Link

Im 37 snd im not lacking options 🤷‍♀️

My mom is 62 and even she isnt lacking options.

Maybe you arent interested in older women but in my experience, most dont care

[–]Aldabruzzo 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD3 points 5 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

You would be amazed by the amount of lonely men her age and older.

Because of the business we used to have, our main clients were retired American and Canadian single men living in Mexico. I know many women in their 50s and 60s who have married some of them, my mom was asked out looking for a relationship many times but she never wanted to.

[–]Aldabruzzo 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD4 points 5 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Good point, I keep forgetting that men have to lie for sex.

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD6 points 5 years ago [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

Where do you get that i tell myself im as desired as a 27 year old?

[–]miketrance 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD11 points 5 years ago [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

Where did I admit im a couple steps down from your equivalent man on the desirability scale?

Dude you are all over the place. You should monetize your mind reading abilities.

Im sorry to ruin your fantasy of women over 30 being alone and sad but that's just not my case. I dont "need" a partner so I will never settle for someone I dont like or who I just like enough just to have someone besides me.

[–]miketrance 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

Lol I love that rationalization at the end. It’s much easier to pretend it’s your choice I know, and admitting the truth wouldn’t change your reality anyways. Let’s analyze this shall we?

You’ll “never settle” for someone who’s just okay, fair enough. Ask yourself why those are the only men you have left to choose from? It’s because the men you wouldn’t have to settle for are dating the 27 year old you. That’s why you can’t find a suitable partner, because partners you find suitable date younger women.

Buried in all that “you go girl” self talk is you admitting I’m correct. You’re betraying yourself and agreeing with me if anyone’s able to stop and actually think about what you’re saying they can see it clear as day. No mind reading required, your own speech is giving you away.

There are only two possibilities for why you “refuse to settle” either 1. You feel that no one is good enough for you in which case you’re a terrible partner and a rampant narcissist and that’s the real reason you’re alone or 2. The people who you feel ARE good enough for you aren’t interested. This is the actual truth because the men you want can date you but 10 years younger.

[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD9 points 5 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

You make a lot of assumptions buddy. Why does it bother you so much that there are women over 30 who dont need to settle?

There are only two possibilities for why you “refuse to settle” either 1. You feel that no one is good enough for you in which case you’re a terrible partner and a rampant narcissist and that’s the real reason you’re alone or 2. The people who you feel ARE good enough for you aren’t interested. This is the actual truth because the men you want can date you but 10 years younger.

Dating isn't a priority for me. I dont like kids so Im in no rush to find someone to reproduce. Im very happy with my life as it is so settling for someone would make it less enjoyable, why would I do that?

Besides, your original comment said:

Men aren’t thirstier than women though and a whole lot of women who thought this are now in their mid 30’s finding this out. Then their only recourse is radical feminism and where have all the good men gone articles.

It only SEEMS that women are in higher demand when they are young because they have at least two generations of men seeking their attention possibly three. Men their own age, men one generation older and a select few men of two generations older than them.

And now you are moving the goal post to: Yeah you have options but not the ones you want.

Women will have more options than men all of our lives. Deal with it.

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[–] Mrs_Drgree A Single Mother [ M ] 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–] miketrance -3 points -2 points -1 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

“Why does it bother you so much that there are women over 30 who don’t need to settle”. It doesn’t, you’re not in my dating pool I am married and if I wasn’t I could date someone who has everything you have but is at least 10 years younger.

“I don’t like kids so I am not in a rush to reproduce”. Like you even can at this point. Without some serious medical intervention your chances of becoming a first time mother at 37 are pretty slim.

“Women have more options than men do all our lives deal with it”. You’re delusional and rationalizing that your forced spinsterhood is a choice. It isn’t but the good news is some lonely cats will be able to find a home. I’m married to the mother of my children and have been going on 14 years now, if that doesn’t work out I constantly get hit on by pretty younger women who don’t have a chip on their shoulders. I couldn’t care less what you do.

Also it’s not at all moving the goalposts to you have options but not the ones you want. That has always been my argument. As women get older the pool of men shrink substantially that are willing to seriously consider them as a mate. You admit as much when you say you’re not willing to settle. If you were as desired as you think you are you wouldn’t have to settle

[–] SamGlass 4 points 5 points 6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"becoming a first time mother at 37 are pretty slim."

Well she suggested that she doesn't want to. But I wanted to point out that whether or not odds are slim really can't be known unless you know the woman you're speaking to. The women in my family don't hit menopause until late 60s, and multiple women in my family bore offspring at 40. And not just any offspring, thriving ones who are healthy, play sports, and perform impressively academically. So I think I, personally, can look forward to prolonged fertility thanks to my genetics.

And I'm not sure how rare this is. I know women outside my family as well who bore offspring at 40 and 40+. The safest reproductive age for human females is 25, but it's definitely not the only. Men go for 16 year olds and 50 year olds despite both those ages being less ideal for reproduction. They don't think very deeply about it most just follow their danglies! Hehe

[–] PollyRiki 3 points 4 points 5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Telling me I don't have to reply in a debate group is blatantly dishonest. First off you're on my comment string. I didn't invite you here, so if anyone is needlessly commenting it's you not me. Second, this is a debate group and the entire purpose of this group is to engage in conversation. Lastly, why would I care, the reality of the situation is good for me.

It seems like you have yourself a pretty nasty case of projection. It seems like you don't care for the fact that I accurately pointed out the reality of your situation. It's too bad that you didn't listen to someone like me before it was too late for you. Like I previously said, at least this reality is good for some lonely cats out there. If you're not going to be a big girl and try to gaslight me instead I consider this conversation over. Either get yourself a genuine argument or leave me alone because this has now left productive conversation with your unsubstantiated accusations.

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD3 points 5 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Im currently seeing someone that im completely smitten with.

Theres at least 4 other guys that I know would date me in a sec. None of them is creepy. One of them I would consider if I wasnt seeing someone else, the others I dont like for different reasons.

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[–]miketrance 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TakeThePinkPillThePinkPill.co 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Then their only recourse is radical feminism and where have all the good men gone articles.

Snarky but no. Actually, we're in a time where there is some kind of paradigm shift. I can feel this myself and I'm not in my thirties. So can my friends. With more time online exposing what it is like to be with thoughtless partners and the abuse, quite a few women are being completely turned off by the opposite sex. We don't want this of course and women are trying to date but there is a resurgence and backlash against the kind of feminism that tells you having sex is super empowering. It is only empowering for women who KNOW THEMSELVES WELL and are completely fine with extracting sex for fun. Its not for women who are just trying to find love and trying to make men happy with their demands of no commitment and instant sex.

Men are absolutely thirstier by every metric. It is the basis these male spaces are built on. Dissatisfaction, loneliness, depression, lack of validation for SEXUAL acceptance from women.

You trying to put women down and acting like growing older just like you do, like its not the natural course of humanity is just pink pill. It is just one of the extremely unpleasant realities that come with sharing a planet with your gender. We are talking about male sexual thirst. It is just as real as any other call to nature.

you don't need to be embarrassed about it since society has long accepted this about men, for better or for worse.

Radfems growing seem to be just a side effect of paying attention to the bullshit and making some new decisions.

Where have all the good men articles seem like something older women have always shared. When you look at old publications even back to our grandmothers and great grandmothers time, you will see the common enlightment of "these men aint shit" naturally occurring in each generation.

But women still believe in good men existing. Just not as many as we were told. Its not something for you to mock. If anything, I've seen men lately discuss feeling shame and hurt that some women don't seem to like men very much anymore. Women expect better from men. That's where that comes from.

Not being old and unattractive to you and therefore suddenly invalid.

Wake up. You're not helping men.

[–]WillFred213 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]miketrance 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men are absolutely thirstier by every metric. It is the basis these male spaces are built on. Dissatisfaction, loneliness, depression, lack of validation for SEXUAL acceptance from women

They aren't, not at all. Women are just sexually thirsty for fewer men than men are for women. They aren't less thirsty though. I'm also not "putting women down" at all I'm just pointing out reality. You don't like it, too bad.

I'm not at all embarrassed because I have nothing to be embarrassed about. I don't at all chase women yet still have a line of women behind me ready and waiting. Your entire comment is nonsense and arguing against points I didn't make. As far as the where has all the good men gone articles always existing I'm going to call bullshit on that.

I'm sorry that you're old and bitter, you should have not jumped in with both feet in radical feminism. Why are there so many older, single and bitter women thinking they have legitimate dating advice to the younger generation? If people were smart they would listen to someone like myself who was actually successful in the dating marketplace instead of someone like yourself who wasn't.

Also you can expect whatever you want from whoever you want, the point is you're not getting it because the men who meet those expectations can date you but younger and prettier.

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And yet, these assumptions give rise to the models, on which real-world applications are derived. You can even claim the model works, so long as the assumptions are relatively accurate. Most underlying assumptions of the stable marriage algorithm are actually reasonable and could be extrapolated to the vast majority of people.

Your idea that theories, models and algorithms are invalid in reality are false. It’s not entirely accurate, but more precise than any other estimations.

How do you think they determine air resistance and trajectory? You start out with a sphere, get an initial computation, then iterate from there till you achieve a satisfactory answer. Extrapolate that to a human sized figure, scale down the experiments, rely on software and fluid dynamics. Add them together to give a comprehensive picture. Most times, your preliminary analysis through simple assumptions provide a sufficiently close answer. How do you design a building? You assume the columns, beams and slabs, initial sizes and then iterate off there.

Edit: Tell me you are not a STEM student without telling me you are not a STEM student. You strike me as a high-school kid studying Arts and Humanities, making assumptions so far off baseline. I’d hazard a guess you think the Sciences and Maths taught in school are unimportant and inapplicable in reality.

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[–]shadowcandee 15 points16 points17 points 5 years ago* (45 children) | Copy Link

I’ve learnt that America has a very strange culture regarding women “shit testing” men, I didn’t know what that term meant, til I read stuff here, had to ask, and I find it so different to how vulnerable and kind I’ve seen women treat their men or anyone they’re trying to date over here, as they genuinely want a connection and hate games or they themselves, are the ones being played by men. I obviously don’t know every woman in my own country to know if they shit test or not but anyone I’ve asked is completely clueless about it here.. This realisation has made me sympathise with men more as I was a bit naive, thinking men are mostly the “players” or manipulators

There’s actually an article here from another Australian who was completely clueless to this terminology and was just trying to have a convo with this guy and he simply accused her of shit testing him.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/dec/13/online-dating-wandering-into-the-manosphere

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They are more grounded. At this point 90% of my friends are from Europe, not the US. US culture is kind of harsh in a way that I think messes with your head. You’re encouraged, as a woman, to have fun, be independent, go out, be silly, be promiscuous if you want, enjoy your single years...but then once you hit the wall around 28-32, people say “well you should have done xyz...” and very few people outside of religious communities are encouraging young people to focus on being ready to get married or have kids. It’s a lot of “you’re young! Have fun!” So I really feel for people. It’s not easy.

I got married and had my kid fairly young (married at 23, kid at 25). There are pluses and minuses but I think I like how I did things. My American friends are still in Wooo! Girl mode and idk how to wake them up. We’ve become more distant.

I’ll also what others have said about social safety nets and family friendly policies. The US is lagging.

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[–] shadowcandee 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, I guess it’s just my nature. I know what it feels like to be put down lots so I try my best to be nice to others and lift them up. I think many of us are nice here tbh, from what I’ve seen, I mean I’m sure we’ve got some bad eggs as every culture does, I’ve definitely met a few, but I think generally, we seek real connection and hate immature games. I’ve never really seen a girl play games with a guy, they’re always the one wondering if the guy is playing games with them.

Right that makes sense I guess, it really makes me wonder.. I think perhaps some girls are insecure of attaching themselves to someone so to try protect themselves they shit test. I mean surely that’s why? I don’t know.. If they do it unintentionally, it definitely sounds like a defence mechanism. The way I’ve heard men talk about it tho, makes it seem like these women do know what they are doing and they are like manipulative evil bitches who judge men unfairly and what not.

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD25 points 5 years ago [recovered] (33 children) | Copy Link

Im way more sympathetic towards men issues now. I never thought men put so much of their self worth on being desired/ sex intimacy. I also learned that TRP is more right than wrong in women nature (thers still some stuff i dont agree with but now i lean red way more than i used to)

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD15 points 5 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Im from Mexico and men here express their emotions even less than in other cultures. Also, most men are cheaters and dont care about their kids so I grew up thinking men basically had no feelings like women do.

Before coming to PPD, I never thought it was that important for men to feel desired nor that their self worth was so attached to it. It has been an eye opener to learn and understand this.

[–]Best_Mord_Brazil 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD13 points 5 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah its pretty bad. Most women here are raised to take care of their husbands and deal with the cheating (Ive heard many women say "sure he sleeps with other women but im THE WIFE" plenty of times) so I dont think theres going to be a change of culture at least in my lifetime.

About half of the men Ive dated are foreigners (American, Canadian, German and British) and theres a huge difference between them and Mexican men regarding how they see relationships.

[–]FreierSteinkopf1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]EleanorAbernathyPhD19 points 5 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I do not believe that AWALT is valid for everything. Sure for some things, but not for every aspect of being a woman.

I do not agree with the angry men that has taken over the RP label. Just like I dont agree with the women who throw tantrums in the name of feminism, I think many men justify their misoginy in the name of RP.

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i didn’t realize height was such a big deal until i started frequenting this sub lmfao, never once in my life did i consider that a man’s height mattered.

i also didn’t believe in the concept of af/bb at one point. i do believe it happens now, but i certainly don’t see it happening to the degree the men here act like it does (at least, not in my generation).

one thing i can think of off the top of my head: i realized, after reading about the madonna-whore complex and spending time here, that men care a lot more about a woman’s sexual past than i thought. i came to the conclusion that you would be hard-pressed to find a man who doesn’t have a madonna-whore complex to some degree, even the liberal guys. the liberal guys are just more open minded and have a much higher tolerance for “slutty behavior,” but even they have a line set somewhere that makes the difference between a madonna and a whore.

i knew men cared about sexual pasts to some degree, because i grew up about surrounded by men and have had many male friends throughout my life; and it’s not like i never noticed how they’d talk about their girlfriends vs their hookups or how they’d talk about groupies/bitches/“sluts”vs how they’d talk about “good girls.” they just didn’t say it with the same kind of vitriol the dudes here do lol, and i’m sure they were censoring themselves since they were usually in mixed company.

i think the men here have “red pilled” me; meaning, they’ve made me realize a lot of things about men that i didn’t think about before. my opinion of men as a collective was super positive before i started frequenting this sub.

[–]frankypoist 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Same all around. I'm a guy, and my opinion of men dropped from this sub. The objective debate style of PPD had me hoping men would objectively throw n count out with the bathwater of neurotic tradition (religion). Instead they've doubled down, considering it a future cheating or DNA risk - which I suppose makes sense, but doesn't consider other factors. I've come to realize I'm a whack job among men; I encourage women to "have fun"; I care 0 about my wife's past, except good stories and hot goss. I thought I was "enlightened", that all objective men would come to this point (read the book "Sex at Dawn") - but I'm reading enlightened men here, and it's not so. Now I know I'm just weird.

As for women, I've come to see them as absolutely merciless. Combine this sub with FDS, and they veritably hate men. Disgusted by them. Want their money and Chad genes. Step up, grow a pair, ew gross, etc. The war of genders (which is a biological cat and mouse, again "Sex at Dawn") is more real than I thought. Men are thirsty with one goal; women hate that goal, so snub men, angering them into creating subs like this.

I don't know the solution. My best attempt: men, meditate daily. Bring down that thirst a notch, focus on yourselves for your sake, not to get pussy. Women: grow a heart. The usual dynamic is to reject men mercilessly. It exacerbates the response (thirst and rage). I feel like a well-rehearsed, warm and gentle (but firm) rejection could go a long way. Take these men under your wing and teach them what's not ok, and how to help themselves.

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I feel like it's just endless posts about women all being young hot babes who hate good guys and I just can't relate to it as a mid 30s woman who is married and never had casual sex in my life. On this sub, I'm constantly told I don't exist or I'm some kind of anomaly. Reddit is just like a different universe of people compared to my life and the people in it. I've mentioned topics from reddit subs like this to my husband and occasionally his friends or people I know well at work, and everyone's just like "oh come on, that's just like a small group of weirdos who'd think that" and I'm like no guys, this is like what young men are buying into these days and it's a LOT of people, things are really changing. They're like nahhhh you're just finding weirdos in these dark corners. They won't believe me

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Men care about virginity/n count more than I though.

I still don't buy this one. Religious men, I can see that. Truly conservative men, I can see that.

But from my experience offline, I just witness all these rules fly out the window once a guy thinks he has a chance with a beautiful woman he wants to acquire. You will never see anything as contorted as a male who has concluded he MUST have that woman.

It is usually more a matter of discretion. She can't make him look bad.

and once they acquire, some of them want to do whole makeovers and shit tests so they are not at risk of losing her. Its usually guys who can't pull hotter girls that use this n-count talk .. until they get a chance. As the bestie of guy friends, the third wheel, the supporter and spectator, heard it all the time. ALL cap in this sub

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men who get lots of interest are definitely turned off by women being upfront.

That's because guys who get a lot of interest are hot, and hot guys have lots of women to choose from. The ones that hit on them tend to be girls that aren't in their league looks wise. It's not the act itself that puts them off, it's the women that are doing it.

Women expect to be approached, so they don't need to, for the most part, but let's say Becky is a 6. Lots of guys ranging between 1s and 6s approach her frequently, so she doesn't feel the need to approach them, they'll come to her.

Now there's a guy who's a 9 (We'll call him Chad for meme purposes) who only seems to approach girls who are 8s and above. Becky's only chance to make something happen with Chad is to approach him herself, because he sure as shit isn't going to approach her.

What she doesn't realise is every other single average Becky tries the same thing. He doesn't want them because he can get 8s or more if he puts in a little work. So he sees all these average and below average women trying their luck with him as a burden (like women do with the majority of men that approach them).

So yeah, guys who are hot enough to regularly be approached by women don't like it, because it's girls who aren't up to his standards that are doing it.

I think these guys are the only ones who can empathize with women when they complain that nearly everyone who approaches them are gross/unattractive and that being approached isn't a compliment.

To people who get approached a lot, being approached is only a compliment if you fancy the person back. To people that don't, any approach is a compliment.

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I guess all you can do is ask yourself why would anyone take the time to speak on this as a consistently as I do?

You can also ask yourself what seems true? Does it seem true that all women are living like celebs? When you see men talk badly about women on subs like Where Are All The Good Men, what do the women look like when they are bullying them? When you look at the dating stats and review response rates and consequential marriage rates, does it look like a level playing field? Think stats. Does it make sense that the entire chart representing women show everyone at the peak?

Just question your beliefs and really think for a second. Look at the women around the world. If you genuinely believe all women are treated equal, maybe you relate to all the people who ignore male issues more than you know. I do this every single day, even after Reddit deplatformed us and I talk to these women. I engage with them in real life. The caricature put forth about how all women live come from unreliable narrators who don't see unattractive women as people. They tell you very loudly themselves.

And by the way, women don't even need to be unattractive to confirm some of the things I've been saying. It is just a fact that if men don't like what you are, some of them will just treat you very badly. As a woman, merely being the wrong size or the wrong race will expose you to a bit of what I'm saying.

Just think about it.

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Women WANT men.

No, women want stats. Women want status. Women want top selection, with a backup option and the option to climb higher if the opportunity comes along.

Male rage specifically has to do with being betrayed, because they've been lied to. I was not really "RP aware" until about 9 months ago, and it was interesting how many "hey, I noticed that a long time ago, this is obvious" moments I had.

Women and society (which is really just collective women) tell men wrong and damaging things about what it means to be a man, and what traits are valuable to women. If you spent 15 years growing up (say 15-30) and you found out that you'd been lied to by all the people claiming to help you, you'd be enraged too. I was lucky that I just think most people are blissfully unaware of most things in their life, so I had no reason to trust them about women either.

but there is a reason SO much of the discussions women are having include detecting and avoiding the shit strategies pumped out by the Red Pill.

Being intellectually aware of something rarely prevents your subconscious from falling victim to it. It's likely some of these discussions help against the 'lesser' RPers, but if you're spun up away from the rage and you're intelligent enough to actually understand the lessons (and you aren't just genetically unlucky and ugly), than women's discussions aren't really relevant. Women, far more than men, will have a conversation full of pleasantries and turn around and do the exact opposite, which is why men get fucked asking for their advice.

They are repulsed by Red Pill BS

Not really. There are elements that aren't as healthy, but the core of RP is something even liberal woke'sters want.

Maximize your physique. Hit the gym. Most HB women spend an hour in the gym 3-6 times per week. Women don't realize men have to work much harder for the ideal body that women prefer (+muscles but not body builder), but it is what it is. Eating healthy is also something men are generally behind on.
Develop a healthy social life that isn't women dependent. Women want to be invited to do things, not be the focus of things.
Develop confidence. If your money, social life, and grooming is on point, you're actually ahead of the pack. You can't advertise this if you're not confident of it, and women are shoppers, so have the confidence to advertise.
Don't overvalue women, being needy creates repulsion and overvaluing women encourages a lack of respect due to misvalued time.
Set boundaries. Women actually like having a space where they have expectations they can meet, and having no boundaries creates expectation issues. A woman who wants to invest in you the way you want to be invested in will respect your boundaries.

I think that you'd likely agree that these things aren't generally repulsive RP BS, and they're all fairly centric to RP ideals. The rage stage can be a lot to handle, but if men are expected to "deal with the evolution of the dating market", than women are to be expected to deal with the consequences of collectively lying to men. Women as a whole should expect to deal with the outcomes of male rage as a whole if they choose to say "get over it" until it hits critical mass, which historically has happened many times.

Why lie, indeed.

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I realised that the manosphere argument that women basically want to freeload off of a man's labour, while doing the 'easy' job of staying at home looking after kids, is basically class based.

As a middle class woman, I can't imagine anyone choosing staying at home to deal with the tedium of household labour and childcare, over having the independence and stimulation of working outside of the home. However, when I think of work, my class based lens has me imagining a meaningful career, with civilized co-workers.

From the perspective of a working class or lower middle class man, who may be working a tedious, physically demanding job with a bully of a boss, the idea of staying home with children might seem positively delightful in comaprison.

I realised that when we argue about who has it better, we're often comparing apples with oranges. I only ever get in these arguments with anonymous strangers on the internet, and never in real life, because the men I interact with in real life, are generally middle class as well, and therefore share the same perspective as me.

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I think that as men we should court the women we want to be with. I believe the root cause of this is the removal(or attempts to remove) traditional gender roles(based on biology) that have been in place for thousands of years of society, I think it's a reaction to the liberalist propaganda that women and men aren't different and that gender roles are just arbitrary social constructs. I think that young men are just confused and angry about all the liberal propaganda. Most men want to lead, I mean you can't be a leader and be respected as that if you don't have the power and responsibility, it makes no sense and contrary to popular belief, women respond better to men whom they believe to be above them in the pecking order and tend to have more respect for those men. Believe it or not young men are highly susceptible to social conditioning, more so IMO than women.

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Title	What argument here has changed your mind?
Author	Exciting_East7365
Upvotes	164
Comments	841
Date	June 16, 2021 11:21 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/o12jmp/what_argument_here_has_changed_your_mind/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-argument-here-has-changed-your-mind.784335 https://theredarchive.com/post/784335

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