You're focused on the wrong qualities that are triggering her lust: He's more attractive than you because he's more masculine, not because he's an asshole.

AdmirableSelection81 · 2024-02-21T20:06:19+00:00

I will have to use virginity statistics as a proxy for the harder-to-measure romancelessness statistics, but these are bad enough. In high school each extra IQ point above average increases chances of male virginity by about 3%. 35% of MIT grad students have never had sex, compared to only 20% of average nineteen year old men. Compared with virgins, men with more sexual experience are likely to drink more alcohol, attend church less, and have a criminal history. A Dr. Beaver (nominative determinism again!) was able to predict number of sexual partners pretty well using a scale with such delightful items as “have you been in a gang”, “have you used a weapon in a fight”, et cetera. An analysis of the psychometric Big Five consistently find that high levels of disagreeableness predict high sexual success in both men and women.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

kalecikkarasi · 2024-02-21T22:04:09+00:00

Wait! I thought the Western culture canceled masculinity.

Jokes aside, I'm very much with you OP. I think most women, unless they're young and/or looking for hookups, prefer affable AND confident men. But life is life, and there are personality disorders, traumas, daddy issues, attachment types, substance abuse, etc. Some people genuinely love being with assholes. Yesterday I read a comment that said "My type is drug dealer" in r/askwomen (nsfw) sub. Sometimes negative traits like recklessness, narcissism, overprotectiveness, overconfidence, and arrogance get attention too (regardless of gender I guess).

TRTGymBro · 2024-02-21T21:01:59+00:00

Women want someone who is confident and makes them feel safe and secure. When guys figure out that their fears, phobias and neuroses are the antithesis of confident and strong, maybe a lightbulb will go off.

Until then, yea, it will be the selfish assholes who win because they are going after what they want and they are not affected by external noise. This is a true phenomenon. If a decent guy is too afraid to approach a woman and make a move, she would rather end up with a jerk, who is not afraid to make a move and lead confidently. Sad but true.

tired_hillbilly · 2024-02-21T21:23:34+00:00

The asshole has more opportunity to present as bold, assured, and uninhibited.

Soul_vaccine · 2024-02-21T21:56:31+00:00

The problem is many were raised to believe being masculine=being an asshole. Or you that being masculine is actually unattractive.

k0unitX · 2024-02-21T23:09:12+00:00

If you remove all other factors - say you have identical twins and one is more assholish than the other, which one will generally get more girls?

Personally, I've found that the worse I treat women, the more receptive they are to me. /shrug

Suspicious_Glove7365 · 2024-02-21T19:59:13+00:00

Yeah, the narrative that women are attracted to assholes BECAUSE they’re assholes is a weird projection. It also implies that attractive people are largely assholes and everyone else are saints. If being an asshole was the magic solution to finding a relationship, all men everywhere would just default to that. But SURPRISE…most women don’t like being treated like trash?

Sad_Top1743 · 2024-02-21T20:49:17+00:00

I’ve known way too many unmasculine hot dudes who run through women.

Nobody cares if after she gets to know him she’s less attracted, they were already fucking lol

Ass-a-holic · 2024-02-22T07:19:26+00:00

The real question is…who cares? Why are we spending so much time analyzing what the modern western female wants or finds attractive anymore??

The females I see in my day to day are tatted up, rude, and mostly overweight…not much to offer.

Icy-Sprinkles-638 · 2024-02-21T19:57:34+00:00

The problem is that society has decided to define basic masculine traits as "toxic" - i.e. asshole - traits. So you're both right.

Egoistchan · 2024-02-21T19:52:12+00:00

Attractive and socially adapted men get women? THIS IS UNCONSCIONABLE.

Also women should settle for balloon animal shaped virgins and freaks otherwise they're dating above their league and my feelings will be hurt :'(

yehboyjj · 2024-02-21T22:53:17+00:00

It’s not about masculinity or being an asshole. Plenty of women like feminine men (like the whole softboy-trend recently) and nice guys (not “nice guys” who are only nice to get sex but real decent men).

It’s about confidence, acting normal (even around attractive women), being sociable, taking care of yourself (looks and smells), not caring too much about women/sex/relationships and last but not least just trial and error (lots of trial and error).

neinhaltchad · 2024-02-21T21:02:01+00:00

I like the part where you ignore that “behaviorally masculine” is now labeled as asshole / toxic right off the bat.

There are terms like “mansplaining”, “male gaze” and “entitlement” that implicitly or explicitly shame any manner of masculine behavior so long as it’s convenient.

Chance_Journalist_34 · 2024-02-22T09:29:24+00:00

Whilst i agree with your point, you seem to be forgetting that most women simply dont find most men physically attractive. This has become amplified with younger women. Now perhaps youre right and if a man is behaviourally masculine then she may increase her attraction for him.

You are also glossing over what actually constitutes masculine behaviour. I would put it to you that asshole behaviour most of the time can be the very same masculine behaviour. Being able to tell a woman to get lost or get out and playing the very same manipulation games (shit tests) that women play on men in my eyes is asshole ungentlemanly behaviour, especially if it is a lady you actually like. Yet this is exactly the kind of treatment that many women specifically say they respect. So they respect being disrespected?

Freevoulous · 2024-02-22T14:12:30+00:00

Excellent post OP.

The only addition I would suggest is that plenty of the Good Masculine traits and Bad Masculine traits are THE SAME traits, simply seen from an opposite perspective.

For example: If a Nice Guy is pestering a girl, and a Masculine Man tells him to fuck off and sweeps her of her feet, then the Masculine Man is seen as an Asshole by the Nice Guy, and a Hero by the Girl.

Or: A Masculine Man who responds to a woman's advances is seen as Good Man by her. If he rejects her, he is an Asshole. Even if his Acceptance/rejection came from the same identical principles, it makes him Good and Bad respectively.

A lot of so called Assholes fall under Robin Hood Paradox: these are men who act Bad in order to do something Good. Probably the most stereotypical example would be a thug of a guy who steals money and spends them on his GF and family.

Crimson-Pilled · 2024-02-21T20:11:44+00:00

For the woman whose goal is to feel lusty über alles, she will settle (at least for a short spell) for the "behaviorally masculine decently good looking guy of questionable/poor character" if the one of good character is no where to be found.

So the Good Alpha has to wait until she thinks he meets her high standards, while the Bad Alpha gets immediate, uncommital sex based on her pure desire. This is Af;bb in a pretty dress. Men and women have different definitions for what is masculine, and unfortunately, women prefer the Bad Boy - a powerful man that is as irresponsible as herself.

Silver_Past2313 · 2024-02-21T20:42:37+00:00

People like physically attractive people what's new

Relative_Bee8356 · 2024-02-21T20:40:07+00:00

It's that the alleged "asshole" is presenting as bold, assured, sociable, playful, outgoing, non-neurotic, and uninhibited. A.k.a. he is presenting as attractively masculine. It's not that he's "mean" or a "bully" or "disrespectful unprovoked to people." It's that he's the bolded things.

I actually 100% agree with you but my one quibble is that this behavior is not masculine. There's nothing inherently masculine about any of it and women with these traits do great too.

DumbWordsmith · 2024-02-21T22:18:01+00:00

I agree with the message, but I'm pretty sure the "behaviorally masculine decently good looking guy of bad character" is the guy that most women are carnally attracted to. This is evident in the books that women read. Even in more mainstream works, the anti-hero is often very popular among women (and men, who want to be him).

However, if woman is of decent intelligence, she'll pursue (or respond to the advances of) the "behaviorally masculine decently good looking guy of good character" instead. She's well aware that there are potential consequences (both social and physical) to tying herself to a loose cannon, regardless of the excitement. She can control herself, and she has her priorities in order.

If she's a bit less intelligent, she may try to lock down the guy with bad character a few times before realizing that she's better off with the good version in the long run — and she may cheat on him with the bad version. She's smart enough to know that the good version of the masculine man is better for her overall, but she might not be able to control herself as much.

If she's flat-out unintelligent (or just jacked up), she'll crave the bad version for her entire life and wonder why her world is always a hot mess.

And, of course, what you said in your second point is true as well.

IMO aiming to be an outright asshole is idiotic. Over time, nobody of decent character wants to be around a certified asshole. People want to be around genuine people who make them feel good.

KayRay1994 · 2024-02-21T21:23:12+00:00

mind you, the people throwing the term “asshole” are often grasping at the only identifiable trait they have; their agreeableness. It’s really a “i’m better than him, why don’t you pick me?” trait, though because these men are lacking in any masculine traits, sociability, fun, edge or confidence, they cling on their agreeableness, make it an identity and make it a moral appeal, ie. “i’m nice therefore i’m a good man, and he’s not nice like i am therefore he is an asshole”

it also removes blame and responsibility from the person, in where if the other man (the asshole) is morally beneath you, that means you’re right and everyone else is wrong.

Aaa9538 · 2024-02-21T22:35:21+00:00

Women switch their rules based on their attractiveness level.

peteypete78 · 2024-02-21T20:48:13+00:00

It's that the alleged "asshole" is presenting as bold, assured, sociable, playful, outgoing, non-neurotic, and uninhibited. A.k.a. he is presenting as attractively masculine. It's not that he's "mean" or a "bully" or "disrespectful unprovoked to people." It's that he's the bolded things.

You're just wrong.

These men are bullies, they're rude and narcissistic, but as they are tall and good looking and have that swagger women line up.

EmbarrassedClient283 · 2024-02-21T20:22:33+00:00

Sounds about right

Hard_Corsair · 2024-02-21T22:19:48+00:00

It's simply a flipped causality: successful assholes aren't successful because they're assholes, they're assholes because they can get away with it and still be successful.

UVIV · 2024-02-22T01:51:25+00:00

I think most people are neurotic. Why do you assume that women enjoy non-neurotic men?

Anxiety is a daily thing. The people with less anxiety don't mean they perform well. On the contrary, it's the people with high neuroticism that perform well.

I'm pretty sure many of the "top" examples you mentioned have more or less anxiety going on in their lives as well.

EricSec · 2024-02-22T03:07:36+00:00

Agreed. Whenever a girl says that she like "bad boys", the guy tends to be really attractive. She really just likes attractive men, and the bad boy was the only one available.

For the record, a lot of men do this too. They say that they are only attracted to "crazy girls", but you often find out that the crazy girl was just the only attractive girl who would date them.

Ayaka_Simp_ · 2024-02-22T03:56:04+00:00

The problem is: women don't know the difference between being an asshole and being "masculine."

odd_cloud · 2024-02-22T13:47:27+00:00

I guess an interesting sub-topic would be to discuss if those attractive traits are encouraged or rewarded.

I think, these common understanding is that a boy will grow up having those traits. So, parents and education professionals want to indoctrinate all the “good” qualities. So what often happens is that a boy with high neuroticism and agreeableness becomes even more neurotic and agreeable. No one cares to cultivate those attractive qualities. Moreover, they are excluded from mainstream discourse, and we have to find them explicitly stated in a 100k Reddit sub.

Another thing is that those attractive traits do not help with success in today’s world. Your typical office environment is not a place where you earn success by being assertive and disagreeable. One exception is being ceo, but there may be only that much ceos.

So I guess that boys are raised to be successful in the current world, which decreases their attractive traits.

favabeansandwine · 2024-02-22T16:38:23+00:00

Soft, simping, supplicating "nice guys" are wimpy and they feel threatened in the presence of real masculinity, so they just call the guy an asshole. They are also parroting what women say about the same men.

Her: He's an asshole! (because he won't do what she wants and can't be manipulated.)

Brad: Yeah, he's an asshole! (because he intimidates poor Brad and gets all the girls)

Also Brad: I'll never be an asshole and be super nice to you and never say no to you!

Her: Brad, you'll make a great girlfriend for someone who is not me someday.

I've been "the guy" in the room, and I've watched the less confident men wear their angst like a flashing neon sign. You can't even try and include them in the humor of it all, they just wither.

Women don't even need their intuition for this. It's obvious.

ArtifactFan65 · 2024-02-21T21:22:38+00:00

Nah you get free bonus points for being an asshole because toxicity and violence stir up excitement in women and they get addicted to the drama. The only other way to stir up similar emotions is to be hot, funny and charismatic. Despite what the people here say I see a lot of unattractive assholes succeed with women.

It's also much more difficult to display your dominance when you are respectful to everyone, unless people are picking fights with you all the time.

Suzcval · 2024-02-21T21:47:07+00:00

A lot of redditors automatically nominate anyone who isn't a nerdy loser as an asshole, because the implication that it's their own chosen behavior that's causing their lack of success as opposed to the fact they have stereotypically male-dominated interests, work in male-dominated STEM fields, and don't have any 3rd places they want to go to to actually meet women can be pretty unpalatable.

JohnGoodman_69 · 2024-02-21T20:42:15+00:00

The guy who is behaviorally masculine is more likely to get the gal. The guy who has good looks is more likely to get the gal. The guy who is behaviorally masculine and has good looks is more likely than all of the other guys to get the gal.

Half truthes on some of this. The difference between the guy who is "behaviorally masculine" vs "The are PLENTY of behaviorally un-masculine and behaviorally unattractive men who are absolute assholes who ARE NOT getting the gals." is their physical attraction. The behaviors themself are largely the same, but not judged the same because one man is more attractive vs the other. Same reason why the same behaviors are considered sexual harassment from regular guy A and friendly banter from attractive guy B.

KorinTowerFreeloader · 2024-02-22T08:47:45+00:00

Let's be real. Most of us experienced first-hand that being nice gets you nowhere, whereas treating women like dirt is considered exciting and actually works. Same looks, same everything, same person, different results.

SupposedlySapiens · 2024-02-21T20:25:59+00:00

It continually blows my mind how many guys don’t seem to understand what you posted. Women are generally attracted to masculine men. Some masculine men are assholes. But it’s the masculinity that is making them attractive, not the asshole behavior.

And guess what? More often than not, the woman either realizes she picked an asshole and leaves him, or they stay together in a toxic relationship and pop out a bunch of babies and spend their days drinking and fighting and living in near-poverty in some trashy exurb. I legit don’t understand why so many guys on here seem to want that life.

vinceoffershlomi · 2024-02-21T23:31:53+00:00

The fact is attractive Men do not have to endure the borderline abuse that women often put their partners through when they're unsatisfied, leading to these women seeing the men as assholes.

So people, both men and women, come to the erroneous conclusion that women like assholes, when in actuality women like attractive men.

The lengths that people go through fail to acknowledge the importance of genetic looks in life's success is mind-boggling.

optimuscrymez · 2024-02-22T02:21:51+00:00

More Just worldly nonsense from a just worldy OP.

Nope.

Masculine/not-masculine behavior has 0 to do with attraction.

Her mood/variance + his physical attractiveness = EVERYTHING.

Stop spreading the personality myth. It's harmful.

SlyStocks · 2024-02-22T12:41:23+00:00

I don’t think behaviour or personality is important at all. Looks come far above all else.

Soul_vaccine · 2024-02-21T21:36:05+00:00

I think these discussions would be better if we agreed that “assholes” are just guys who aren’t afraid to approach women with romantic or sexual intent, in spite of the societal programming we get about how that’s vulgar, scary, or somehow wrong. Furthermore “nice guys” are just good guys who never learned to make romantic or sexual advances. Basically the guys who listened to all that societal programming.

Assholes are not “assholes” per se and nice guys aren’t sneaky creeps who demand sex in turn for being nice.

They’re rather, bold men disregarding the above messages or good dudes who are afraid to make anyone uncomfortable with their sexuality.

It’s good to be bold but not toooooo bold. And it’s good to care about not making people uncomfortable but not to the point that you just give up on dating.

TLDR: We gotta make different terms.

LillthOfBabylon · 2024-02-21T20:53:46+00:00

I always said that a lot the mannerism of “nice guys” are stereotypically feminine: whiny, finger pointing, jealous, entitled, all the traits you see from bratty little girls. Also, only being able to describe someone as nice is extremely boring. Forget attractiveness, that makes for a boring friend.

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Aaa9538 · 2024-02-21T22:39:15+00:00

Whether you are nice or an asshole , she will find a way to be with you or at least give a chance if she attracted, if she isn't either way it means you're way below average

SIeight_of_Hand · 2024-02-21T20:11:04+00:00

So, what is stopping men from becoming more masculine? It’s codependency, the need to please other people.

Even when you make an absolute solid point, the codependent guy takes it and puts it all out trough his codependent behaviors.

Mothers aren’t always correct when raising kids, they use lazy parenting strategies to get the kids to do what they want them to do, via threatening to leave, withholding affection, venting about father and emotional inconsistency and so on.

Later the in school the same methods apply here that tap into his fear of abandonment, and the girls also touch into his fear of abandonment.

And the best part is, his problems might be politically incorrect, so nobody actually is going to work things trough with him.

One way is absolving a heavy workouts that stresses out the body, and these things have like a shooting effect for the mind.

Another way is start being the judge of his own actions and life and desensitize against shame and guilt manipulation tactics from others.

AntiHypergamist · 2024-02-21T21:31:32+00:00

good looking = masculine

qwertyuduyu321 · 2024-02-21T21:56:10+00:00

He's more attractive than you because he's more masculine, not because he's an asshole.

Yeah, not really.

https://youtu.be/j1xJDAGl1bg?si=77T2RqfKvxR3MMUP

buckeyetree · 2024-02-21T22:29:49+00:00

Oh yeah me just over here lusting over Joe Biden

Competitive-Ask4393 · 2024-02-22T05:58:09+00:00

: It's that the alleged "asshole" is presenting as bold, assured, sociable, playful, outgoing, non-neurotic, and uninhibited. A.k.a. he is presenting as attractively masculine

Yes these are more or less the social traits women are drawn to but you're missing the major fact criminals, murderers and people with severe mood disorders reproduce at higher rates than anyone else in the male population. Why is that?

Women are hormonally drawn to assholes / violent figures. That's why serial killers are idolized by women (letters to serial killers, countless stories of women being turned on by the dahmer series) or the whole Jeremy Meeks event years back, he was idolized for his looks 100% but the amount of women who were fetishising his criminal past.

It's a mixture between masculine + good looks + psychopathic traits.

caption291 · 2024-02-22T07:52:32+00:00

Think of the guys in your communities or networks who are most like JFK Jr. Or the Hemsworth brothers. Or Chris Long. Or Denzel Washington. Or Ryan Gosling. Heck, or Joe Biden.

You chose people who made careers out of trying to impress others and caring about appearance/image. I don't think our ideas of "masculinity" are the same.

They don't know how to be Ryan Gosling. Or Denzel.

Maybe they know how to emulate the behavior of people like that...it's just that when they do it, it's interpreted very differently by people like you.

gopher_glitz · 2024-02-22T08:52:19+00:00

Enter Justin Biber, Timberlake, Prince, Harry Styles, leonardo dicaprio, timothée chalamet, pop etc

Safinated · 2024-02-21T20:26:46+00:00

They do this is portray women as immoral and therefore inferior

Preme2 · 2024-02-21T20:29:38+00:00

I don’t think anybody cares that the more attractive man gets the more attractive women. It’s that the more attractive guy is getting the more attractive women AND the mediocre women.

Chad is getting Stacy, Becky, Becky, Becky, and Becky. Sharing and participating in willful ignorance to get the delusion going.

IndependentMaster702 · 2024-02-22T04:29:53+00:00

Imagine unironically believing that Joe Biden, compulsive liar politician is of good character. You don’t know a single one of those people listed personally to say that. However there is one thing in common ($$$) 2. Using masculine/feminine terminology is pretty useless in this conversation. None of the things you listed really apply, just overall (arguably) good traits. 3. Girls date assholes because that’s what comes to them. They take what they can get the same way guys do.

No_Cardiologist_797 · 2024-02-22T04:47:13+00:00

Which behaviours are you classifying as masculine?

HardTimes4Vampires · 2024-02-22T16:57:07+00:00

studies have shown women are less intelligent than men, lack introspection, logical reasoning (need to look no further than pinkpill feminism where 95% is just manosphere jargon copy-pasted)

naturally women prefer dumb bravado aka “confident” men because a they internalize social structures without questioning them and fight for a position in the hierarchy unlike a introspective guy who questions the “game” itself.

peabutnutter17 · 2024-02-22T20:33:24+00:00

über alles

Can't tell if this is a dog whistle or is actually a common phrase used in English

daddysgotanew · 2024-02-23T00:22:14+00:00

Today I learned that Chris Hemsworth, Ryan Gosling and Denzel Washington are just “decent” looking men.

Have fun with the cats ladies. It’s gonna be a long ride to old age 🤣🤣

Cactus2711 · 2024-02-21T22:05:30+00:00

Asshole means always put yourself above her. Men who do this keep her attracted because she understands that your smv is higher than hers

moosemc · 2024-02-21T21:28:04+00:00

I, also, write too much, when I really mean to say, just be a super-duper butch top.

SignifyingNothing5 · 2024-02-22T00:32:10+00:00

What is your point in posting this, OP? I think you have a point, though suggesting that most men don't know how to be Ryan Gosling or Denzel Washington prompts me to note that Ryan and Denzel couldn't quite be themselves if they looked like Michael Cera or Kevin Hart. They'd have to be a good nebbish or a good clown, or a bad Ryzel.

So it has to be more to your comment than stating that good looking men with any prosocial aptitude at all play life on easy mode so get over it and make me laugh. Right?

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Planthoe30 · 2024-02-22T10:11:15+00:00

I only clicked because I wanted to know why there was a picture of someone’s abs next to the post. I’m not even interested in the abs I just wanted to know why someone was trying to show off in a debate sub.

purplish_possum · 2024-02-22T15:12:31+00:00

The two golden rules for guys:

1) Don't be a pussy;

2) Be hot.

New_Engineering3987 · 2024-02-22T16:18:31+00:00

Advice my bro gave to me when I was 17. “If you don’t feel like a complete asshole then you aren’t being enough of an asshole”. Eventually I started doing all the shit your told not to do, being extremely forward, slapping asses without permission etc and my pull rate went through the roof

Proudvow · 2024-02-22T18:53:48+00:00

And many men when trying to be the bolded, over-index on being a jerk because it's the only way they know how to present as bold, assured, sociable, playful, outgoing, non-neurotic, and uninhibited.

It's effectively just semantics then. Being outwardly scumbaggy is the simplest method of expressing masculinity, and a guy who is not naturally masculine or even particularly socially adept is gonna be stuck with the simple stuff. So he's not really focusing on the wrong thing in this regard.

Dramatic-Ad7687 · 2024-02-23T14:34:18+00:00

I don’t want a relationship based on lust. I want a traditional family with a woman I can love forever and have a bunch of kids we raise to be good stewards of the world.

Spyro7x3 · 2024-02-23T17:48:24+00:00

Yes but women also get confused here. A lot of what they call asshole nature of conservatives is actually just masculinity which is why there are countless videos of feminist women titled (why I’m dating a conservative)

Title	You're focused on the wrong qualities that are triggering her lust: He's more attractive than you because he's more masculine, not because he's an asshole.
Author	GridReXX
Upvotes	111
Comments	571
Date	February 21, 2024 7:41 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1awl9cq/youre_focused_on_the_wrong_qualities_that_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/youre-focused-on-the-wrong-qualities-that-are.1246035 https://theredarchive.com/post/1246035

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