Getting Muscular Is A Terrible Return On Investment When It Comes To Dating

TomBerwick1984 · 2022-07-15T08:15:48+00:00

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GYN-k4H-Q3z-75B · 2022-07-15T08:35:58+00:00

There is something between soy boy and viking vs average fat slob, and the ROI on converging on both overall life styles is decent. You don't have to go all the way. You don't have to be super ripped, but you can be toned and actually wear clothes that fit and be healthy. That is what you should strive for.

Being either ripped or a soy boy as a personality doesn't work. You still have to be a person.

TermAggravating8043 · 2022-07-15T08:46:46+00:00

Muscles look good, no denying that.

But When redpillers advice guys to go to the gym/work out, it’s not just to improve their body, it’s to improve their confidence. Confidence is what we all want, that’s why even the more feminine looking guys have gfs too, their confident about how they look and own their flaws, a confident individual is sexy

DLifts777 · 2022-07-15T13:47:52+00:00

Only guys who have put 20 lbs of muscle on should be giving answers in this thread. If you're a twink you shouldn't be commenting on things you haven't experienced. It's like some fat neckbeard talking about climbing Everest, has 0 credibility. I can absolutely assure everyone, after going from 6ft3 190lbs to 230lbs ripped, the attention has sky rocketed and I can basically get most girls I want even the one's who 'don't like muscles'.

As for women.. 'watch what they do, not what they say'.

NFthrowaway8302021 · 2022-07-15T07:42:38+00:00

I will heavily disagree based on personal experience and that of my gym friends. Muscles go a long way in the dating game.

HazyMemory7 · 2022-07-15T09:30:25+00:00

I talk to a lot of men who go to my gym who say that getting muscles didnt help them get girls at all

That's because:

So many men go to the gym these days. Getting women is difficult and very competitive. Lifting doesn't make you stand out.
Going to the gym wont magically give you social skills or change your facial aesthetics (though reducing body fat can reveal them)

In and of itself lifting is still helpful advice. Generally speaking, the most attractive physique to women is a guy with a significant but not bodybuilder level amount of muscle mass, at ~10-15% body fat. Also helps during sex, most girls want to be dominated.

Lifting weights is just one piece of the puzzle.

trololol_daman · 2022-07-15T10:31:55+00:00

Your forgetting the fact that the E-boy persona tends to be a niche for young girls mostly highschool girls and secondly not many men have what it takes to pull off the e-boy look. Most average men will see a great benefit from getting muscular.

techr0nin · 2022-07-15T12:04:05+00:00

I would say that in terms of attraction, your face and height are the most important, and muscles is one tier down. So yes, the eboy approach works great if you have a pretty boy face and is 6ft+. That said I think eboys are the most appealing for girls in their teens, at most their early 20s. Pretty boys can also age badly once you get into the late 20s or 30s unless you have a particularly strong and masculine facial structure to begin with (ex. Leonardo DiCaprio).

Muscles on the other hand is always a net positive, unless you push into the extreme roided-up territory. However I do think it is overrated in the manosphere, and in fact the biggest benefit of working out is in lowering your bodyfat, which in turn can drastically alter how a man’s face look. Muscles help, but the marginal utility diminishes quickly.

OkConcentrateNow · 2022-07-15T08:59:03+00:00

Your argument goes out of the window when women say that they like tall men because they feel safe and feminine with them. So clearly, they do care about it.

Well developed muscles somewhat offset lack of height. If you are 5'7" and dainty then you are fucked. If you are 5'7" and built like a tank who can whoop an average 6'2" ass then you are much better placed in the hierarchy. I have a buddy who's around 5'8" and 90-95 kg, all muscle, trains martial arts. His self confidence and swagger is legendary.

Finally, guys may get into weight training because of women but you don't haul your ass to gym year after year, watch your diet, deal with injuries, work your ass off to near the point of passing out just to get women. After a few if evolves into something much more personal, it becomes a matter of taking your body to the level it is capable of, to work towards goals that matter to you.

poppy_blu · 2022-07-15T12:45:03+00:00

This why we have a society full of people at the prime of their lives who are obese.

Whatever happen to working out and staying in shape because it’s healthy, makes you feel good, and cuts your risk for preventable disease significantly?

gofigure62 · 2022-07-15T11:06:35+00:00

I'm a fitness nut. I love working out and eating well. I typically don't like my fellow male fitness nuts.

I dedicate a significant amount of time to fitness usually over 3 hours a day, but I still have a life. I still spend time with my friends and family. I still have interests and hobbies outside of the gym.

Gym males, on average, do not have a life or interests outside of the gym. They're annoying, boring, and vapid people. And they usually dress like shit, so despite having perfect bodies, they never have any style or personality to make it interesting.i HATE the tank top, and sweatpants tucked into socks thing that so many men seem to do where I live.

I definitely have a preference for men with asthetics. But they're rare to come by. Especially as I get older. Not too many men in their 30s rocking a "look".

It's really hard to have a "type" when it comes to men since most of them simply don't do much to make themselves look good. Most men don't have any fashion sense and don't care to do anything with themselves.

bitchesandincelshit · 2022-07-15T10:44:56+00:00

I think it depends on woman’s taste and there is more variability of taste for this trait. Personally for me it’s not a MUST, but I do prefer masculine men. Muscles are hot imo. A lot of women drool for marvel actors for being buff, and a lot of women love guys like Timothy Chalamet. Personally I think marvel men (muscular but not body-builder muscular) are the classic standard of beauty and will always attract many women.

bison5595 · 2022-07-15T10:57:42+00:00

Any guy who says they got muscles but didn’t get any girls had nothing else going for them and had unrealistic expectations. Just because you get ripped doesn’t mean girls are just going to open their legs for you. Having a great physique will make it easier to get and hold her attention longer, but you still need proper game. Attracting women is a skill game and getting a six pack is just a part of it.

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2022-07-15T07:49:21+00:00

I think what men and women find attractive is very similar; youth, health, fitness, thick head of hair, bright eyes, nice smile/teeth, good fashion sense. Look at anime. The male and female characters look very similar, yet this wasn't always the case.... The male ones used to be buff and hypermasculine, it was actually the female market that stamped out this trend, search "Bishonen Jump Syndrome".

Gari_305 · 2022-07-15T11:41:17+00:00

Here's are a series of studies u/BlackGriffin_1 I suggest you check out prior to making the statement

Based on a 2017 study from the article below

Psychologists have confirmed something most women deep down know regarding male physical attractiveness: strong men are, by far, preferred to weaker looking men.

The study was based on interviews with 160 women. The female participants had to rate the physical individual attractiveness of men from two categories: a group composed of 130 psychology students and one composed of 60 gym-going university students who worked out a few times per week.

Aaron Sell, a psychology lecturer at School of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Griffith University, Australia and his co-author, Aaron Lukaszewski, an evolutionary psychologist at California State University at Fullerton measured the males’ strength via weightlifting machines, grip strength tests and other methods.

Based on a 2007 study from the article below

Their study, published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, suggests muscles in men are akin to elaborate tail feathers in male peacocks: They attract females looking for a virile mate.

“Women are predisposed to prefer muscularity in men,” said study author David Frederick of UCLA.

Actual 2019 study

Bodily attractiveness is an important component of mate value. Musculature—a crucial component of men’s bodily attractiveness—provides women with probabilistic information regarding a potential mate’s quality.

Also mentioned in the Abstract

Women’s reported preferences provided only partial support for our hypotheses that women will prefer muscles that most reliably differentiate between potential mates to be larger;

What was found in the conclusion

Although far from conclusive, these mixed findings suggest that somewhat different information may be extracted from different muscles groups by attractiveness assessment adaptations. Strong biceps, for example, might reliably indicate fighting or hunting ability, whereas strong abdominal muscles are more indicative of health or diet.

In short based on these studies is why you have certain cases as in found in this viral video

Also I could add my own personal experience but I don't want to be accused of bias which is why I'm providing you objective information.

In short, hit the gym it'll do you good u/BlackGriffin_1

KayRay1994 · 2022-07-15T12:39:07+00:00

A lot of factors come into play - gaining muscle alone didn’t help me, but it certainly was huge from a personal growth perspective - develop a sense of style, grooming, social comfort and i can’t stress this enough - have a fun, warm personality - the issue with a lot of people who lift (and this is coming from someone who lifts religiously) is that their whole personality is (insert boring, not social hobby here) + lifting, i’ve been there - that’s a dead end

The gym alone won’t do shit, and most red pill and alpha male content creators are grifters who want you to come back to them - go to the gym, lift - cause you’ll love the results and you’ll love the confidence it brings you, but don’t do it for the sole purpose of expecting women to instantly be interested in you - that’s a recipe for disappointment

RedditorSafeSpace · 2022-07-15T13:09:56+00:00

Being fit is never a bad return of investment. False premise

JaracRassen77 · 2022-07-15T08:21:42+00:00

Disagree. I get way more interest now than when I did when I was a twig. It's one of the few things us men can do to improve our attractiveness to women. I'm not uber-ripped, but lean with toned muscles, which works well with my physique.

Chaos-Knight · 2022-07-15T08:59:38+00:00

Just a suggestion worth throwing in here: Not all women are looking for the same type of man. Appealing to a nieche is a thing. But for appealing to a broader audience I think adequate muscles will help you out, but they will by no means carry you to the end on their own.

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2022-07-15T09:36:54+00:00

these pretty eboy looking men still generally have some muscles so you can tell they work out. how well do you think a chubby or scrawny one would do?

Coolio_Street_Racer · 2022-07-15T13:59:03+00:00

As someone who is fat and now leaner but still a ways to go. OP is right that being lean matters more than muscle. It's not about the muscle as much as the chiseled facial features you get from being lean. But having muscle also does help alot.

Salkinov · 2022-07-15T09:10:41+00:00

Getting into bodybuilding was one of the best choices i could made in the last years. First of all muscle will make you look better. Almost all women like some muscles. As long as you stay away from steroids you will most likely not get too big. Best thing about it is the increased confidence though.

-CuriousPanda- · 2022-07-15T12:15:51+00:00

It’s not the muscles - at least not directly. You’re correct that men will notice the muscles more, but that’s the point: being more noticed and respected by other men raises one’s social status and that increase in status is absolutely noticed and appreciated by women. Men set up social hierarchies and women select mates from the top of that hierarchy. But sure, a social and well connected skinny fat dude will usually get laid more than an angry loner gym rat. But if everything else is equal, physical fitness is definitely an advantage.

2022-07-15T13:39:16+00:00

your goal is to be at a low body fat percentage. big muscles are just an extra

Rhythm_Flunky · 2022-07-15T13:53:23+00:00

Weight training, exercising and being fit has several other benefits than merely looking attractive though.

It builds confidence. It’s a healthy hobby and lifestyle based on achievement and incremental progress.

BlackGriffin_1 · 2022-07-15T08:11:29+00:00

I am likely older than you by a fair deal. But I still date plenty of women in their mid 20s. I really don't think this description of man is a thing. Obviously everyone has their type. Really I don't even see anyone like this man when I am out and about. Where are you getting your information from? A young woman on the apps is your target audience for this.

AcanthocephalaNew947 · 2022-07-15T13:40:39+00:00

I’ve said this before.

A big issue a lot of men have is they’re worried about impressing other men not women.

I don’t think I’ve ever met a woman who likes roided out muscles. I’m sure they exist, I just don’t think it’s the norm. I think if a woman does like muscles, she’s going to like more of the slim fit look.

Another thing Men seem to think woman’s attraction works like theirs. Butterface is a male phenomenon. Bad face hot body Id still smash. Women aren’t lusting after bodies that damn hard, you can have a Chris evans body, if your face is ass you’re not league jumping

stlmick · 2022-07-15T08:39:26+00:00

Taking care of yourself is attractive to women. There is definitely a point where adding additional muscle won't make much difference or even be less attractive. Being overweight isn't a death sentence to dating, but if you can't control your eating, what other areas do you not have in order?

OkSun3059 · 2022-07-15T14:15:27+00:00

Attraction is a complicated topic, since it’s entirely dependent on the person. And can also be heavily skewed by lies/ bandwagons.

I know tons of girls that prefer lanky tall dudes, because they themselves are lanky or out of shape, and get self conscious around fit dudes.

And vise versa, I know tons of fit girls that meme on my tall and lanky friends for being 130-170 at 6’.

Also to add:

If your having trouble picking up xyz, and your a subjectively attractive person(especially a lean, in shape man), you might just be autistic and that’s on you.

Getting fit won’t make you attractive to everyone, but when the average American man is pushing almost 200, with a 40 inch waist, and can’t even deadlift there body weight, then anything is a huge improvement to that.

coastFI_chaser · 2022-07-16T02:26:08+00:00

For younger women 100% being masculine without any boyishness is not attractive.

lectrohS_naisA · 2022-07-15T10:18:52+00:00

If you want to have casual sex, muscles are kinda important. My work friend has a great body. Big muscles + six pack and his diet is strict. He has a topless photo on Tinder with his muscles on the beach and it's the one all the girls comment on.

I believe you need to look good like this for lots of casual sex.

I don't believe you have to look as good for a long term relationship, as that can grow from facial attraction + a good personality. As I see plenty of fat ass dudes getting into relationships.

Optickone · 2022-07-15T11:47:48+00:00

In real life.

You know, the thing the exists OUTSIDE of the internet. Real women, particularly those older than 16 years old. DO NOT go for that absolutely hilarious "eboy" persona that you have linked.

Women who say "muscles don't matter", will also say things like "I don't like guys that live in the gym or take steroids", "I just like guys that are toned, don't take it too seriously....guys like Chris Hemsworth".

This is a movie star by the way that is built like a viking god (literally) and has millions to spend on trainers, drugs and nutrition.

Hollywood and media have absolutely warped their mind about what it would actually take the average male to look in peak condition.

"I don't like muscles" to them actually means, I don't like prime Ronnie Coleman on 100 different steroids' with veins bulging out of his veins. They have absolutely ZERO idea about how how much work it would take to achieve what they would consider a "toned" physique.

beleidigtewurst · 2022-07-15T11:23:30+00:00

When it comes to attention especially online it seems that the men who get the most attention from women are men who have the eboy persona

Then get that eboy persona and leave us alone.

"Return on investment" Jesus Christ, we are talking about GETTING FIT. If you are not interested in GETTING FIT, don't GET FIT. Jeez.

A lot red pillers seem to think that men that have a more masculine

Ew. It's not only that masculine trains make men more attractive, but that we even have time to research, exactly when that attraction is stronger. From Nature magazine:

Women’s preferences for men’s facial masculinity are strongest under favorable ecological conditions

inglorious_king · 2022-07-15T12:34:12+00:00

Look, being attractive it's not about having huge muscles, fast cars, or a huge bank account, but these traits certainly help a lot. Just having muscles, or money won't attract females, instead, they're merely a conversation starter, a spark - if you know what I mean. But if you're a boring loser that puts every second chick he meets on a pedestal, women won't feel attracted to you. You need a bit of game.

Your post makes me believe that you're actually very lazy and you're trying to find excuses that working out and taking care of your body is very bad for yourself. Which is a worm mindset. All those people that you enumerated have game, muscles, and some money - and they are preaching game over everything else. They are also preaching to stop pursuing women and start pursuing your goals.

Your first step towards attracting women is your general fitness. You don't need to look like an ox, you just need to have a harmonious body.

The next step is game - you have to start picking up conversations with random women - and no - don't do this online, this should be done IRL. After that, take care of your finances, a good submissive woman will help you a lot in achieving your goal. She will support you and be on your side regardless of what you do, she won't start asking random questions about you like where are you going or what are you doing or who are you meeting if you randomly leave the house. It's enough for her that you have something important to be done. Create some tension in the relationship, and leave a place for some mystery. For example, if you are some geeky web developer don't tell her some of your BS coding adventure, explaining that you solved a code problem like you're some coding Rambo, no, it's pathetic and boring.

Tell her that you're solving problems and providing value to people. Take random trips in the evenings telling her that you have something to solve - even if you just go for a walk. She will feel that drama and tension and she will start feeling excited when she gets to spend time with you. Make her understand that you have a lot of options, but it's your choice to stay with her because you want to do so, even if this is not true. Believe me, if you keep creating a little bit of mystery and controlled drama in your relationship she will want to have you multiple times a day. She will turn on whenever you're looking at her. You have to turn yourself into the gatekeeper of sex don't give her control over you.

Remember if you are a loser and you also have muscles - congrats now you're a fit loser. If you are fit and you have game, an interesting Instagram profile, and interesting life - congrats you're a chad.

Another thing - stop pursuing women. Pursue real-life skills - start training in a combat sport, go out with your crew and hustle, go clubbing, go with your crew at the shooting range, and do interesting stuff. You should be the prize, not some random chick you just met and you're head to toes over her. Make her work for your attention. Believe me, you have between your legs the best weapon of mass control in the world if you know how to use it.

When I started kickboxing my life changed for the better - believe me, after 6 months of combat sports, and after sparring a few times, you'll start getting a huge boost of confidence, and you'll become extra attractive. Being a dork with muscles won't give you women.

Stop looking for excuses! Looking forward to reading about your future victories!

szclimber · 2022-07-15T13:57:40+00:00

No. In general, more muscle and less fat is a good thing. It will improve your chances of success.

g0juice · 2022-07-15T14:14:07+00:00

Absolutely not. I pulled so much ass with nothing but looks because I was jacked when younger. Zero game involved and it was stupid easy. I’m also not ugly so that helped. Lol

Horrible advise.

TomBerwick1984 · 2022-07-15T14:31:53+00:00

Women like men of all 'types'. There are women who like androgynous men (e-boys), women who like athletically built men, women who like bodybuilders, etc. There isn't one universally appealing body type.

I've been on bodybuilding forums, and the consensus seems to be that women generally do not find the competitive-bodybuilder sized body attractive, but they do find a muscular body attractive. Also, a lot of people who train can become obsessed and neglect their social life. Going to the gym and not socializing is bad for dating life. Women won't drop at your feet, but you will be rated as more physically attractive by women (provided they get an opportunity to see you with your shirt off). It takes about 3 years of a good diet and program to develop a body that a woman will see as 'hot'.

These 2 studies provide some supporting evidence:

First study: Men rated larger muscles as more attractive than women rated them. However, women did rate larger muscles as attractive.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1474704919852918

"Additional analyses showed that tallness and leanness were also favoured, and, along with estimates of physical strength, accounted for 80% of men's bodily attractiveness*. Contrary to popular theories of men's physical attractiveness, there was no evidence of a nonlinear effect;* the strongest men were the most attractive in all samples*."*

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29237852/

Besides improving attractiveness, doing resistance training is good for overall health.

drok007 · 2022-07-15T15:42:33+00:00

Going to the gym wasn't about looks, it was about masculinity. You are still stuck on the looks stupidity.

NewWayNow · 2022-07-15T15:58:59+00:00

If you're short or average, you gotta hit the gym.

If you're tall, not as much. You get way more leeway.

LotBuilder · 2022-07-15T16:37:31+00:00

I would say diminishing returns after a certain point but certainly not terrible returns. Once you hit 10% body fat with some muscular definition and a V taper you are fine. Think of swimmer or water polo player. There are some girls that like gorillas, I am a gorilla, but most girls are not super attracted to that. They all like feeling safe or even untouchable but that doesn’t mean their preferred aesthetic is a muscle head. There are certainly women who like skinny musicians with painted nails but that’s also kind of an outlier.

Aggravating-Glass350 · 2022-07-15T17:17:56+00:00

A skinny twig with a Glock 9mm can protect you more than a 6ft2 230 pound athlete lol, women y'all act like straps don't exist

GingerBraum · 2022-07-15T22:09:54+00:00

Women, generally speaking, are more attracted to a muscular physique, but a muscular physique is not a replacement for a personality. A body like Brad Pitt's in Troy won't do you any good if talking to you is like wrestling with wet cement.

Going to the gym can help with the opposite sex. Just don't be delusional about what it'll bring.

vtribal · 2022-07-15T07:59:33+00:00

The goal is to get toned and be lean but with muscle, not super bulky. Something like Michael B Jordan’s physique.

Slight_Fig5187 · 2022-07-15T11:52:49+00:00

I think between a muscled gym man and a fem boy there's a wide array of body types which are perfectly fine and probably more successful with women. Those are the two extremes of a spectrum.

wtknight · 2022-07-15T12:14:18+00:00

Visible muscles is a good thing, so I think that some lifting helps. Women like seeing the muscles when a guy takes his shirt off. So I disagree to a certain extent.

On the other hand, making one’s muscles too large is probably a waste of time, I agree. Just being fit enough for that instant attraction effect is what is important. After that, a guy is better off working on his confidence, conversation skills, and developing hobbies that might interest women.

Lyndell · 2022-07-15T12:16:55+00:00

I don’t think it’s eboys, has much as they have a big personality. Personality is always key and if you’re a stereotype it’s easier to make a personality for you in their heads and then find you more attractive. As someone who went from 6’4” 150 to 210 I can tell you, there has been a measurable difference in the attention I get. If you can pull off a stereotype do it, personality will take you far. If not muscles are a good choice.

heartheartdoki96 · 2022-07-15T13:31:56+00:00

t also seems that the reason women married these men in the past is because they had no other choice too, not because they wanted too.

Oh my God, you get it! Lol I totally agree

talk to a lot of men who go to my gym who say that getting muscles didnt help them get girls at all if anything it made it more difficult because all the women they talk too think they are going to hurt them in someway.

I think an even bigger reason is that not many chick's wants a dude who prioritizes hours at the gym per day. Because mosr gym rats spend literally 1-2hours multiple times a week. That's a ton of time, and it's gonna leech over into home life. Like when I was dating and I saw a dude was a gym buff, I would do the math and be like "okay so he probably eats a super strict set of food, I'll have to spend hours listening to lifting podcasts and hearing him talk about macros and shit"

But some women will date those dudes and do like those guys. Not all people like the same shit.

But I agree, a ton of women love more feminine or androgynous men. I'm a fan of rbe Seth Rogen body type

urukgay2022 · 2022-07-15T13:39:20+00:00

I see a lot of red pillers (people like Hazama, Fresh and Fit, and even Playing With FIre) always talk about if you want to get girls then you need to work on your fitness and go to the gym.

Thanks for proving you do not know at least 2 of them.

Getting muscular is not for women, it is for status among men, which in turn imply women but not directly.

Perfect_Sir4820 · 2022-07-15T13:44:35+00:00

When it comes to attention especially online

Sorry but your whole argument falls apart here. People's behavior in real life vs online is very different and you're making assumptions on one based purely on the other.

Certainly there are diminishing returns when a man goes past a certain level of muscle bulk but he will absolutely have an easier time dating with defined muscles and body-fat of 15% or so.

Ohmaygahh · 2022-07-15T14:02:54+00:00

eboy persona

What the fuck is that, Xerxes from the movie 300?

penis_loverrr · 2022-07-15T14:30:55+00:00

Depends on what your goal is If you have that chunky body builder/powerlifter look it's not really attractive. But if you go for hamza body which is very aesthetic and quiet appealing you would get alot more attention. Plus the Testosterone boost from working out really helps your skin and face look lean.

Your_Couzen · 2022-07-15T14:42:27+00:00

You have too much mass. When all these people say go the gym they don’t say build muscle they say to lose fat. Woman like lean bodies not muscular. You invested too much time getting buff you look like your slow and lack endurance and you look like you still eat a lot

2022-07-15T14:59:13+00:00

Nope. Muscles work.

You don't need to roid yourself up. Ottermode is enough.

iLiveInAHologram94 · 2022-07-15T15:03:00+00:00

I personally like guys with a muscular or stocky build. And prefer masculinity. But I don't mind some femininity just not too much.

AquaChip · 2022-07-15T15:04:21+00:00

I love men with muscles. Moderate muscles. So I wouldn’t exactly call gaining muscles useless for dating. You won’t get women falling all over your like you’re a rock star if that’s what you mean. You need to go in with moderate expectations, yes female attention will increase but maybe not as much as most men think.

Evo_Psych · 2022-07-15T15:21:38+00:00

I'm going to the gym for myself. And an athletic, not body builder body, is ranked most attractive over and over. Pretty clear if you follow the science. I'm a massive fan if evo psych.

I do think merely being slim I did quite well tho as well. But I know I feel better mentally and more confident now that I'm exercising a lot.

I'm not huge by any means not am interested aiming for that. But after being scrawny my whole life I ended up a little chubby during covid.

I'm losing that now. And whether that impresses anyone with a shirt off or not my confidence improved and my mental health has soared.

I'm not nearly super fit or at my goal. But it's been better than any anti depressant or other change in life.

I credit the gym with helping me quit drinking too. So all around very positive.

SavageAnalFissure · 2022-07-15T15:24:31+00:00

Yeah… I’m sorry nobody goes hey I think I’m going to dress up as a strange hell raiser looking twink creature for the ladies…

USSTrapLife · 2022-07-15T15:25:21+00:00

Uh eboy?? Im sorry thats nonsense. Thats some subjective statement. Maybe thats what youre into but not even remotely the truth

gym_brah81 · 2022-07-15T16:05:44+00:00

I've thought about this, but I realized that even if this is as true as my mind brought up/this post, it'd still be worth it to be able to have a better looking, leaner face. (Also health, but doesn't pertain to dating as much)

RobDog101 · 2022-07-15T16:18:22+00:00

Pretty much every guy in the fitness community knows there’s a lot of truth in this, as there are multiple jokes and memes about guys who start to work out hoping to attract female attention and then finding it’s only men who notice and complement them on their gains. But lifting for women isn’t the best motivation for a lot of reasons. Nobody who’s serious about fitness does it just to get laid/get dates.

Anyway this isn’t universal either. Many women do of course appreciate fit, muscular men. And many who say they don’t are actually just insecure and have to be the more attractive ones in the relationship so that they have more control.

calfshrug · 2022-07-15T16:24:01+00:00

The guy on pic related looks like a girl. That’s not what women are into, usually. That guy is either a Peter Pan, still in puberty and will change a lot in dimorphism, or he’s gay.

I agree that being freaky jacked isn’t a good thing for getting women, but if you’re already good looking facially, it is a force multiplier to be muscular.

iamsojellyofu · 2022-07-15T16:31:58+00:00

For some people, it gives them a boost when it comes to attracting someone. I agree that relying on just your physical attributes is a horrible mentality but it is better to be single but slightly attractive than to be single and not-so-attractive.

CJs_goldfish · 2022-07-15T16:31:58+00:00

Muscles are alright, better than being unhealthy, but they don’t replace a personality.

betabucks666 · 2022-07-15T16:38:04+00:00

girls like the swimmer lean type. i personally like non roided lean amateur bodybuilding type for myself.

however with this advice for the average people they usually don't even look like they lift after a year or two. if you look at a lifelong natural lifter like eric bugenhagen you get an idea what is around the maximum attainable physique. 99% guys aren't going to get there so may as well try to get as jacked as possible regardless if it's for yourself or for getting girls.

athlete2biz · 2022-07-15T16:41:37+00:00

tell me you are out of shape without telling me you are out of shape.

dude its not just about the muscles. It makes your body function better, it makes you more mentally sharp, it produces serotonin, it just makes you feel good and confident. it helps you eat better too.

its also not just about woman, men respect you more when you are bigger.

once you have a certain amount of muscle its easy to maintain it.

you dont need to just lift weights, go run hills or do some cardio if you dont want to be too muscular.

another caveat: the eboy persona works when your like 19. once your in your mid 20s on its better to be a bigger more masculine man.

Rushbyb · 2022-07-15T16:41:40+00:00

this post is beta.

I don't lift weights to get girls but 100 percent it helps. If you lift weights to look good 100 percent you ain;'t lifting what i can.

TodTheRod01 · 2022-07-15T16:52:30+00:00

Getting muscular is pretty vague.

I look at myron from FnF...he is fit...but i would never call him jacked he's on the skinny side.

Being fit or at least not fat...is the main message. But ive never heard red pillers say you gotta get yoked/jacked af...its usually be fit or dont be fat

But ya getting dieseled like a bodybuilder/powerlifter is gonna work in that a small group of women is going to REALLY LOVE your look...most wont.

All this will also help with self confidence and body image issues...as well as learning and showing you have self discipline

VasiliyZaitzev · 2022-07-15T16:52:48+00:00

First, you don't lift for girls; you lift for YOU.

Second, there is a residual return with girls - who gets more pussy (all things being equal), a fat guy or a guy who is in shape?

The truth is, for many guys it will take 1-2 years of lifting before they "look" like they lift.

SoftAd6291 · 2022-07-15T16:59:33+00:00

As a young woman who knows girls in their 20s and also teenagers bc of my younger sister. I’ll tell you that the ones that like these eboy skinny guys are usually teenagers, that’s why these guys are famous on tik tok which is a platform mainly used by teenagers.

I was also into very skinny skater looking boys until I got older, and now I prefer a more “manly” man, aka bigger arms, hands, defined jaw.

Smitten_Squire · 2022-07-15T17:24:54+00:00

Ur acting as if you lift a few days a week naturally that you will look like a massive bodybuilder. Lol it doesn't work like that. For most people who lift you can't even tell they lift, they just look a little more healthier and fit. Which is good

swaggyquack · 2022-07-15T17:28:54+00:00

DUDE the internet is not real life lmaoooo. Sure some girls fall head over heels for the gay eboy aesthetic, but go around real life and you will find that most women are most attracted to a guy who is athletic, low body fat, with a little bit of muscle.

Your anecdotal evidence does not match up to mine, since I started hitting the gym (which also boosted my confidence) I have had a significant increase in the amount of women willing to throw themselves at me, and sure I never really had a problem before because I was 'cute' enough, but now I get way more attention because I look sexier and thats just how it goes IRL.

sl3epsfortheweak · 2022-07-15T17:29:01+00:00

The e boys and muscular guys you're mentioning still have traits in common

Smithersink · 2022-07-15T18:10:08+00:00

This exactly. Men fail to understand that a large part of what attracts women is confidence. The main reason muscles help with attracting women is that you’ll get more attention and encouragement from other men, which will make you feel more confident. If you don’t have other friends who work out and still don’t have any social skills, muscles mean shit to women. Personally, I think the best thing you can do to be more attractive to women is to talk to women and understand them. That doesn’t mean only surround yourself with women and act just like them, but it also doesn’t mean constantly asserting your dominance as an alpha male and trying to pickup women using red pill tactics. It’s a balancing act.

AidsVictim · 2022-07-15T18:49:09+00:00

It depends a lot on your circumstances.

Average men who are highly social get a decent boost from it. Fat men get a large boost from it in general. Skinny guys some. None of it will make up for being facially attractive (or ugly) though.

A lot also depends on your social and/or location circumstances. On average masculinity/muscularity is more attractive to rural women (to the point of being a requirement for some of them) while urban women tend to be more split. Metal fan girls will probably prefer more muscles than kpop fans and so on.

As usual men that are more introverted and have smaller (male dominated) social circles benefit much less (a lot of gym rats) than extroverted popular guys, facially attractive men benefit more than ugly ones, tall ones more than short ones etc.

It's definitely not a silver bullet but that doesn't mean it can't work for a fair amount of men - mostly not the ones struggling though unless it happens to be the main thing holding them back (i.e. fat guys).

Al_Harith_Arethas · 2022-07-15T23:17:36+00:00

I went from turbo skeleton 125 lb at 5'11" to 175 lb after two years of weight lifting. When I was super skinny I still got girls, but it was always girls who knew me who I can interact with, them actually looking at my face and personality. Once I got bigger I had girls actively staring at me in public and approaching me. Bars and clubs became easy and online dating was like night and day with a couple pics of me at the beach.

Most importantly, my confidence shot through the roof. I wasn't ashamed of my body anymore and just the thought that I can defend myself against other people made me feel like an actual man and not a manchild. Everybody shows me more respect as well, both men and women.

Your "girls like skinny eboy" because of tik tok likes or whatever is so delusional. All of that nonsense has no correlation to how women act when you're in front of them in flesh and blood

Cool_Suit_7100 · 2022-07-15T09:05:58+00:00

Surprised how many male people disagree with you. I'm a women and I agree 100%

kjk67895 · 2022-07-15T13:47:59+00:00

The only thing that matters in the dating game is your face and height, whatever you do that can improve that will help you. Most women I know do not at all care about muscles.

Early_Ad_7425 · 2022-07-15T08:48:51+00:00

Literally ewww

CptKillsteal · 2022-07-15T13:18:13+00:00

You are completely missing the point with your eboy statement. It's not about how they look it's about everything about their internet persona, influence and the connections they have. If they had the same appearance and were a nobody they would get vastly different results.

Frosty_League · 2022-07-16T01:53:25+00:00

I’m starting to sense there’s an agenda with all the posts about how “muscles don’t make dating better”

Why are you discouraging men from being fit? You realize men work out not just to get big but to help with self confidence? (Overcoming something difficult, endorphins, Look good, feel good etc)

warramite · 2022-07-15T11:18:07+00:00

"This is Height doesn't matter" type of energy. Pure delusion, most women don't fantasize about a guy who uses nail polish. Women want a guy who is factually exceptional or who she believes is

Adding muscles onto a set of your unique traits results in a massive boost in SEXUAL desirability

Face>=Height>Body... Stability not a necessary factor in SMV only matters in RMV

odd_cloud · 2022-07-15T12:12:24+00:00

I think when women say muscles and going to gym are not that important, they underestimate the amount of efforts men need to build a somewhat fit body.

AndrewPotato34 · 2022-07-15T12:23:04+00:00

Doing the gym is very hard and exausting and as you say not much rewarding that's why even though a lot of men go to the gym nowadaya and equal or even more ammount of them will quit the gym after a year and a half especially after seeing no improvements with dating and women = not even a single compliment from an attractive or semi-attractive women means you failed.

I went to the gym and i felt i was gonna die = the exerices are brutal and people were mean and rugged looking almost lumberjacks with no intellect. Not to mention it's very difficult to prepare your meals when you're alone and you have no kitchen appliances (could be my one enemy but there it is i can't afford it i work minimum wage) and then you have to buy a lot of clothes for the gym, towels and accessories it's like a full lifestyle revamp and it's too much for some people ffs.

I tried to keep a positive outlook but it's just to hard especially if you start going when you're older like me 31 y/o i wish i could swap bodies with an already buffed guy instead of dying in a fucking gym trying to lift weights for 3 years....

Liberated_Asexual · 2022-07-15T14:29:42+00:00

Cues of upper body strength account for most of the variance in men's bodily attractiveness

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2017.1819

The rated strength of a male body accounts for a full 70% of the variance in attractiveness. Additional variance (up to 80%) can be explained by adding the premium women put on height and subtracting the penalty put on additional body mass unrelated to physical strength.

When science counters LGBTQIA2 grooming/indoctrination.

giftedguy4978 · 2022-07-15T14:38:14+00:00

Face and height is and has always been everything

AelfredRex · 2022-07-15T11:25:15+00:00

What do you expect shallow men like that to say? Go read a book? Work on your garden? Try writing a novel? "Just lift, bro" is all they got. Sign of a weak mind.

lostwanderer28 · 2022-07-15T10:36:30+00:00

However I dont think this is the case, due to the fact we will in a mostly civilized society with a police force

And yet, 1 out 4 women or so get raped.

acmemetalworks · 2022-07-15T12:00:02+00:00

You don't think the ability to protect is going to matter in the present civilized, police state? You think evolution has already worked that quickly as to remove that instinctual desire for women? Funny height requirements are still a thing on women's dating profiles.

And yes, younger women, teens - early twenties have been notied as having an adversity to excessively macho men, as can be see in the typical teen heartthrob's and effeminate long hair and make-up of some rock stars. You're talking about girls, women are a different thing.

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fruitbum · 2022-07-15T08:27:45+00:00

Hey bud how’s it going

fruitbum · 2022-07-15T08:29:07+00:00

Become a jacked e-boy that’s the real cheat code

caption291 · 2022-07-15T08:36:02+00:00

However I dont think this is the case, due to the fact we will in a mostly civilized society with a police force.

Care to elaborate what the underlying logic behind that statement is?

masterlaster1199 · 2022-07-15T09:47:56+00:00

There is nothing wrong with building muscle.

However, most guys opt for steroids and going for medium reps, basically training for maximum hypertrophy. Big muscles are a turn-off for women. It's actually more appealing for gay men.

Women prefer the 'working body' type of aesthetic, basically body forged from high reps and compound exercises. Muscle size-wise, they only are willing to tolerate at most Jean Claude Van Damme during his Mr Belgium debut - just a bit buff, but mostly agile and athletic due to his involvement as well in karate and ballet.

Also, Bruce Lee. If you wanna know an actual muscular person who is a rampant adultering womanizer, you got one right here. Girls were often fond of him 'looking like a teenager' while in his 30s and being so strong and powerful while being small.

BlackGriffin_1 · 2022-07-15T09:54:40+00:00

[permanently deleted]

throwaway264757 · 2022-07-15T09:57:11+00:00

A pretty face, exactly like your pic, but on a muscular body is the most elite & desirable thing.

_Benny_Lava · 2022-07-15T13:37:20+00:00

You don't do it for the girls...you do it for yourself!

shzam5890 · 2022-07-15T14:21:36+00:00

I'm a fit girl, and my preference is a tall, fit guy. Once a guy is not soft and has some definition I do not need him to be more muscular. I think, in fact, there is probably a point where a guy is too jacked and it is unattractive to me. I don't like the giant, veiny look. I'd rather a guy that looks like he goes hiking on the weekends and can go on a run with me, with some masculine definition.

rhumel · 2022-07-15T14:36:19+00:00

It works but I don’t think is the more efficient way: if you put the same time into reading books you will end up being a more interesting person and that also is a plus in dating. I would argue a more effective one even.

Looks get you through the door, while personality gets you to bed.

If someone is 100% focused on dating and having sex (which I would not recommend, just aim for what you like and what makes you better, regardless of what women think, they will be attracted to you just for improving all by and for yourself) you should focus on your looks until you get to the “yeah I will give him a try” threshold and then focus on your mind, including knowledge and social skills.

Focusing solely on looks is a very weak mindset that sees women’s intentions through the lens of that particular man mindset: he wants pure looks so he thinks women are also pure looks.

Even if you’re not aiming to a short or ltr and you just want ONS, your chances will be far greater if you learn how to speak to women than if you just show them your abs.

Time is limited and you can’t go for the body of a god while also having the mind of one: you must pick, and the best ratio in my head is = acceptable body + very sharp mind.

ahandtoyourdarknessx · 2022-07-15T15:22:55+00:00

Red pill is right in fundamental theory but not on practical application. In fact, most red pill advice leads to negative outcomes.

I think it’s all about a shift in mindset, as men we try to make ourselves attractive to as many different types of women as we can because that is how we are attracted to women, but women don’t work that way.

I’ve found now that I’m older that the best approach is to find quantity within seeking quality. The fantasy of having casual sex with every women you pass that you find attractive is an impossibility.

What you have to do is find your niche where you’re appreciated and work through all the women there. Women can have 100+ partners because guys are indiscriminate with who they sleep with.

Women are a lot more covert in their sexuality. So if you go to the gym and get strong the girls you are with will like that in private, they’re going to love the strength and the aesthetics and all that, but they’re not going to be attracted to it as a stand alone feature.

So really whether you go to the gym or don’t go to the gym doesn’t matter, it’s far better to know which girls you appeal to the most

Mrs_Drgree · 2022-07-15T16:15:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ChickenInPlaid2201 · 2022-07-15T16:40:29+00:00

Let's say you're getting fit for a physically demanding job, is that at least socially acceptable?

XVMECHA · 2022-07-15T16:53:38+00:00

Not about big muscles, it's about being athletic and healthy. Being 10-15% bodyfat is key for endocrine health

Short-Fingers · 2022-07-15T16:58:54+00:00

People are forgetting how weight lifting makes you feel. You don’t really get confidence till a few weeks or month in when you start seeing results. It’s the endorphins your body produces that make you feel good and the increase in testosterone and mentally knowing you did something good for yourself today even though it wasn’t easy or that you stuck with your routine. It also helps you just work out stress physically, like taking your mental stress and turning it into physical stress. An extreme unrelated example of that is when people cut themselves. I never understood it till I looked up why, and most do it because they are going through so much mental anguish that they cut themselves and they have a physical manifestation of that stress and it helps them mentally. It’s really sad but that’s an extreme example of what weight lifting can do for you mentally.

Needless to say, if you are feeling good and accomplished from sticking to your weight lifting you will naturally build confidence. You can’t lose by lifting weights.

jymssg · 2022-07-15T17:21:44+00:00

Sounds like an excuse to not hit the gym.

BumblingBeta · 2022-07-15T18:33:48+00:00

I've said the same thing before, but all I get told is "sounds like you want an excuse to be lazy and not put in the work".

It is worth it for those with the genetics to put on muscle quickly and with the right muscle insertions. For men with average genetics, not so sure.

stickbreak_arrowmake · 2022-07-15T18:44:29+00:00

Some women want dudes who are jacked. Some women want dudes who are thin. Some women want dudes who have dad bods. Sex drives in all humans are different and want different things to feed the beast.

It doesnt matter. Just try to have the healthiest version of whatever your body type is and don't act like a creep. You got an ugly face and weak chin? Own that shit, and don't let it make you mean or sad.

Women are not this riduclously complicated y'all. 9/10 if women avoid you it's because of whatever is happening between your ears.

jasmine_tea_ · 2022-07-15T21:21:02+00:00

You're absolutely correct. I prefer men who are skinny but who look healthy.

Drifts80 · 2022-07-15T22:59:09+00:00

Use your body to your advantage. Most guys have larger shoulders and pecs but have a gut. The right T-shirt will hide the gut as if there’s nothing there. But I disagree with you as when I got in the best shape of my life a few years back, my pussy level rose drastically.

purplish_possum · 2022-07-16T01:59:32+00:00

more difficult because all the women they talk too think they are going to hurt them in someway

This OP is a total work of fiction. The last thing women want is a harmless guy. Strong, athletically built guys who are at least a little bit dangerous are the most attractive.

SUBLlMlTY · 2022-07-16T04:56:49+00:00

that's neon something. he's very.... appealing

MOProG2 · 2022-07-16T06:26:14+00:00

In relation to the "police man" comment: That's why women fantasize about men in uniform. It is very masculine to protect and provide. It's the reason the millionaires wife will bang the bodyguard or the gardener doing manual labor. There something very instinctual about men who are physically fit. Plus the psychological benefits of being in shape brings out the confidence necessary to talk to women. Not sure I've ever met a shy person in great shape. Every athlete I've ever met was appeared very extroverted or at the very least not afraid or intimidated by women.

Getting muscular is a fantastic way to get popular with women. For one it is appealing to the eyes for ladies and it is self confidence boost (ie you have a trait that separates you from others and accomplishments create confidence). Not to mention the testosterone and hormones going through you also make you "smell" more attractive (feremones and what not).

If you want to be sexually appealing you need to appeal to a women's sexual instincts which are all about survival

Ohms2North · 2022-07-16T07:03:32+00:00

Girls like soyboys. Women like men

Peacesquad · 2022-07-18T14:52:42+00:00

I think every guy should hit the gym. My chest is starting to sag and my shoulders could be more defined. It doesn’t hurt at all.

lolman453 · 2022-07-27T08:51:58+00:00

This can only be said by someone who isn't jacked. Recently I went on a religiouus trip to a place where there are a lot of young girls and I had a girl shove her number down my throat after touching my arms, also one girl came up to me and told me that I looked very "sympathetic". Also multiple girls wanted to perform "6 pack checks" on me lmao. It is literally a night and day difference.

Bill_Rau · 2022-08-06T07:18:17+00:00

I think there’s a bridge that is seldom discussed which is getting more muscles is a bridge for many people to gain confidence/presence.

Those eager to change their appearance dramatically aren’t usually content with their appearance to begin with. Once they get going and grow noticeably more muscular, their internal belief that they are significantly more attractive has a skyrocketing effect on their confidence.

So yes, (IMO) gaining muscle makes you more attractive, but it’s mostly because YOU think you’re more attractive. And as RuPaul likes to say "If you can't love yourself, how in the hell you gonna love somebody else?”

PS I’m 43 so I would be remiss if I didn’t say that when you hit no certain age some degree of fitness makes a huge difference in your quality of life. I spend a sizable portion of time at the gym because I found it necessary in order to have the kind of energy and mobility that I wanted for my day-to-day life. I’m tall and naturally a bit stiff, so this is all relative, and your milage may vary.

Title	Getting Muscular Is A Terrible Return On Investment When It Comes To Dating
Author	BlackGriffin_1
Upvotes	19
Comments	575
Date	July 15, 2022 7:38 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/vzism0/getting_muscular_is_a_terrible_return_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/getting-muscular-is-a-terrible-return-on.1123730 https://theredarchive.com/post/1123730

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