Do men enjoy being desired more?

Mark_Freed · 2021-08-27T12:46:07+00:00

I used to believe that quote by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, A man's desire is for the woman, but the woman's desire is rarely other than for the...

[–]sootlordRedPillCombustion 145 points146 points147 points 4 years ago (121 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mark_Freed[S] 36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Yeah happened the same with my fiance. She wasn't really good looking when we started dating, she was quite chubby and had no sense of fashion haha, but she sent me a friend request in Facebook, I accepted, and next time I logued she had liked exactly 29 picks from my page... All except the ones I was with some girl friends or female relatives hahaha.

Since the first time we met she made crystal clear she was very attracted to me and was on board with whatever I wanted to pursue with her. Initially I proposed a no strings attached situation, which she agree to... Until the next time we saw each other and she stated that she hated the idea of me sleeping with other women and she wanted to be exclusive. So I proposed an exclusive FWB situation. Months later she changed the arrangment and started to push for a relationship...

And well, here we are years later and in our way to get married. She won me over, absolutely.

Also, FYI she started to put a lot of effort in her appearance after we became formal and made a 180° change, in her words, "so we could be even" /looksmatched". She went from a 6-7 to a solid 8 in no time, so I have now a woman that loves me who knows I loved her way before she became a bombshell. I can't ask for more.

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[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I am happy she put in that effort for you and herself, it would have helped her self esteem by tons.

She did it for me, though it didn't change my perception of her in the slightest. I was already on board when she started to make some real changes, but tbh it changed a lot her self steem and the sex improved drastically haha. I agree with the sentiment that women need to feel sexy to be sexy, absolutely.

So you agree with the idea that men enjoy being desired more than women?

Yes I do 100%, and specially for sexy times. I've been with lots of women, some very good looking, some average looking and some of them like "meh" (from the distance at least). The thing is that when I get to know some of them their vibe towards me make me change my perception of them. I love to see the bright in their eyes when they smile at me for example, that's a huge turn on. The way they flirt with me, when they touch me, when they get closer or lean towards to force a kiss while pretending they don't realize what they are doing haha, when they say I'm "soooo funny". I know I'm not dude hahaha, but being appreciated like that, knowing they enjoy my company and the time we spent together it's an instant boner.

In retrospective, I've had more satisfying relationships with average looking women than good looking ones. And the sex, oh man, the sex is always better, more wild and freaky. I can feel their lust for me, but that's rarely the case with very good looking women.

I think us guys are used to not being appreciated just for who we are actually. This includes the sex because, well, sex is pretty much the only form of true acceptange all individuals can offer to others apart from love, so it's really refreshing when it happens.

IMO this is the reasson why guys seek casual sex. It's not because they want to treat women like objects or all that nonsense, but because casual sex is just sex, you don't need to do anything more than be just you. You and the other person, that's all. Men just want some woman to accept them, that's why they worry so much about NSA sex.

[–]Mark_Freed[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Woah man, what you said makes a lot of sense. I never understood the whole narrative of using women as objects. I have plenty of sex toys with exotic internal that I can use if I just wanted an object. Sex is qualitatively different from masturbation.

When someone agrees to sleep with you, its the ultimate validation just like how it is a painful rejection when a girl rejects your advances, you feel like something is wrong with you.

I personally find it hard to untangle emotional and physical intimacy so I don't understand casual sex all that well but your explanation makes a lot of sense. I find that more than desire, when I open up to this girl and I find that she accepts me even after I tell her my controversial ideas.... that is when I feel more attracted to her. Since she accepts me for who I am, I don't need to put up a facade.

But sadly these things fade with time, when you are in your honeymoon phase we can accept each other for who we are but I am worried about the long term sustainability of this sort of relationship. Do you still love your fiance the same years later? Has the love grown stronger? As you know each so well now aren't you comfortable with each other?

I think there are two types of love - passionate love and understanding love. The former takes you over quickly and consumes you. It burns bright and usually dies within a few years. In such love there is a lot of flirting, uncertainty, mystery, desire, and risk taken to maintain the chemistry. With this love, they can have hot sex, etc.

Understanding love takes years to build as humans slowly open up and expose their dirty flaws. They find their partner's heart is vast enough to accept them, they feel secure. Trust takes time and effort to build. This love is comfortable, it feels calm. This is the love seen in successful long-term relationships.

Some people manage both but it seems like in his case it might be understanding love that is left. What do you think? do you think you have both, is it fair to distinguish between these two kinds of love?

[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 [score hidden] 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Do you still love your fiance the same years later?

Well, I didn't LOVE her when we started dating actually, I just wanted to bang her like pretty much all other women that came previous to her, if that makes sense. I love her now, despite the honeymoon phase banished years ago.

Has the love grown stronger?

No, I feel the same love for her I felt yesterday, and the day before, and the week before that day. And I will love her tomorrow the same way, even if we broke up or, God forbid, she pases away. For me love is love. Even if she fucks up big time I would still love her. I will kick her to the curb, of course, but she'll be present in my mind like the love of my life til the day I die.

As you know each so well now aren't you comfortable with each other?

Why wouldn't? I mean, it supposes you should be more confortable around your partner the more time you spend together right?

She's more confortable around me than I am, that's for sure. She has the benefit now of making a scene about me wasting my money on stupid things, chosing what should I dress for an event, making a fus about me hanging out with X buds I know are shitheads or skiping sex most nights "because reassons", all benefits no other woman in my life has had before. If we weren't confourtable enough with each other I would kick her ass out for doing the 10% I allow her to do now. She gets with more than any other girl, and that's because I'm building a life with her.

What do you think? do you think you have both, is it fair to distinguish between these two kinds of love?

I have both, yes. It started as a sexual thing and evolved into love, like it should be.

Is it fair to distinguish between the two? Yeah it's fair.

Is it easy? That's a whole different question, but I think redpill offer some good advices on this aspect, and btw I'm not redpill at all.

If we agree that, at least for men, in order to develop love it needs to be respect and admiration first, and that invariably respect and admiration traduces in lust and attraction, then I agree with the terpers when they say if a woman is not attracted to you then she won't respect you and, even less likely, "grow to love you".

In the modern dating market love almost invariably follows a progression, and attraction is the main trigger. It used to be different back in the old days where sex was out of the equation and marriage was more like a trascendent spiritual institution. Today marriage is a common agreement and because we live in a hiper-sexualized culture sex has become the main source of intimacy and bonding.

Sex is the ultimate form of validation from women, what "the ring" is for women coming from a man. Indeed, sex and the ring used to be the currency both sexes traded with actually so there you have haha, now that we have eliminated all forms of tabues around sex and women are giving away their currency freely...

Well, it's logical that some men are saying "hey, why with him and not me? He didn't offered anything to you in exchange, why do I have to pay for that?"

It's not a "why is he better than me" thing but more like a "am I THAT bad that I don't deserve you?". For men, this trade down come off not as a blow to our ego, but a direct insult, you know what I mean? It's the opposite of a man proposing with gold rings with diamonds on it to all women except the mother of their children. I believe no woman would feel flattered by this and would probably find this as the ultimate form of insult right?

So I agree with terpers. If she doesn't want to fuck your brains out without any form of commitment on the table she will likely never love you no matter how much commitment you offer to her.

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You are looking at it wrong. In fact, this approach is what gives women power over you. To be truly independent, you make your own calculus based on your own desires.

Women have more sexual leverage because they are willing to walk away more often. But that is because to many of them, if they have to choose between being single or going with their equal in the male gender hierarchy, they'd rather be alone.

But for a man, if you truly would be happier as a 5 pairing with a female 4 rather than being alone, then pair with the 4. Refusing to because women won't do the same is giving women power over you. Plus, you'll never get anywhere near the kind of male solidarity on this to 'teach women a lesson'. We all are what we are.

[As a side note, it should be noted that assortative mating still remains predominant, i.e. there isn't usually that much of a difference between couples in raw appearance, class, etc. However, the trends do not seem good. Furthermore, assortative mating does not rule out hypergamy, it just means that hypergamy will target smaller gradations.]

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[–]WilliamWyattD 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Heh, if you legitimately prefer going alone to what the market is offering you, all gender politics aside, then all the power to you. That is a rational decision.

Furthermore, that type of decision is a legitimate and enduring male market signal that women will be forced to adapt to in some way if enough men signal it. As we agree, you will never get male solidarity based on gender politics. But if it gets to the point where enough men, making apolitical decision like you, decide to walk away then that will impact the market in some way. Remember, at least for now, it isn't as women do not care about most men. It's WHEN and HOW they care. Most women do pair up, but they often pair up later with a man they are not sexually over the moon for, but who offers stability and companionship. If enough of these men are no longer available when women want them, that will have an impact. What kind of impact? I can't say.

[Of course it's also possible that less and less women who cannot land a sexually desirable male will chose to pair up later in life as women continue to be more financially independent more averse to having children.]

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It is important to note that while female desire does seem to be more polarized than male, it is still not entirely binary. There are gradations to female desire. And male sex drive can also be unlocked by a new and/or hotter partner. But you are right that there is a fundamental asymmetry here between the genders.

You are right that at least in today's world, it probably is best if men and women are knowledgeable about these things when choosing partners. That said, given the reality of female sexual selectivity, certain guys also need to be aware of how unlikely it is that they can spark the kind of raw desire they dream of in any woman. Perhaps it is our views on sex, including the kind of sex and desire we want and its centrality to life, that are out of step with reality. It is hard to say.

Female sexual selectivity and hypergamy are indeed being artificially inflated by our current culture. But even if we could somehow fix that, the biological baseline isn't necessarily conducive to the average guy getting a woman that will look at him with pure lust in her eyes. Maybe most guys were never meant to get that and we need to structure our expectations around sex accordingly.

[–]Mark_Freed1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]WilliamWyattD2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, the wider the ability to compare the harder it is for women to be attracted to men. The same is true for men, but not nearly to the same extent. And of course there are different levels of intimacy behind such comparisons, which also affects matters. That said, it doesn't take that large of a social circle, even with limited opportunity for carnal knowledge, for women's sexual selectivity and hypergamy to kick in pretty seriously. So even by say the standards of 18th Century Colonial America or in England itself, it's far from clear how much raw desire the average wife had for her husband, particularly after 3 or 4 years.

Certainly there are a lot more stories about wives refusing sex than husbands, perpetual late night headaches, and such. Of course, there were men who refused their wives, too. But I think it went one way far more than the other.

[–]Mark_Freed1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually the idea of men having sex as a necessity, being hedonistic, ravenous, horny, and the crude gender is a recent social flip. In fact men used to be the rational, artistic, enlightened, spirit gender where sex was just a means to the end.

In the 17th century it was understood that women were as horny as men. In fact there was this idea that a women introduced to sex by a man will struggle to control herself.

While now we think men desire multiple partners to spread his seed, back then the short refractory period meant that they believed women could be serviced by multiple men.

So by the 18th century the idea emerged of physically weak, morally strong women. Men, as the stronger sex, were thought to be intelligent, courageous, and determined. Women, on the other hand, were more governed by their emotions, and their virtues were expected to be chastity, modesty, compassion, and piety. Men were thought to be more aggressive; women more passive. Men were prone to violence, obstinacy, and selfishness, while women's sins were viewed as the result of their tendency to be ruled by their bodies and their emotions, notably lust, excessive passion, nagging, and laziness.

In the 19th century women were idealized as mothers and housewives, women were expected to give up their career for the morally more important job of raising kids.

[–]WilliamWyattD2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, it is interesting how these narratives were created and then why they changed. I am no expert, but if you deconstruct the narratives on female sexuality, they tend to have a functional value. They seem like a kind of propaganda that even those that spread them did not fully believe.

Also, if you read between the lines, there's doubt as to the extent that they really believed that the typical woman, even one who had had sex, really had more raw lust than men. Remember, many of the men spreading these ideas visited brothels frequently and there were never any brothels FOR women. What you really see behind this ancient meme of uncontrollable female lust has mostly to do with 'uncontrollable'. There is the idea that when a woman is erotically obsessed with a man, she is less likely to repress it for abstract philosophical reasons or due to the consequences. And there may be some truth to that.

Also, there is a conflation of raw sexual lust and a more holistic idea or erotic fixation. I don't think even the ancients meant that once 'awakened' a woman will just crave orgasm and actual sex. It has more to do with that perennial female hatred of boredom, and the excitement and drama of the entire erotic relationship.

[–]Mark_Freed1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]WilliamWyattD2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Disentangling culture and biology is always very difficult. I appreciate your caution in this respect. It is important to consider both angles.

Heterosexual prostitution for women is indeed a fascinating issue. Aside from birth control issues, there do seem to be some biologically-based impulses that run counter to such prostitution. However, these evolved instincts do not seem so strong that they cannot be overcome by culture given the right circumstances.

Obviously, the existence of birth control is a major factor; though, in theory, even before birth control there would have been no requirement for male sexual services to women to include vaginal intercourse. Another factor is that women do seem to, in general, require more of an emotional connection. But this does seem to be one of those biological instincts that, while generally true, is very variable in any given woman, and is culturally malleable.

Another instinct that runs against such prostitution is woman's need to respect a man on more than a physical level to be fully sexually aroused--or at the least to not actively disrespect him on such a level. But again, what traits women will assess in terms of deciding whether a guy has sufficient status can vary culturally to some extent. The phenomenon of male strippers is revealing here (pun intended!).

Even 10 years or so ago, women had trouble getting really aroused by male strippers. One can attribute it to a general suppression of female sexuality, but I do not think this was central to the dynamic at the time. Rather, there was something inherently low status and weak about a man performing this way for women that was very hard for the female audience to get past. But recently being hot, including a gym-sculptured physique, has become inherently high status in and of itself for women. Somehow, the male stripper has gone from powerless to powerful, and that was what was needed to unlock female lust.

As for the hostess bars in Japan, they are an interesting phenomenon. But for all the symmetry with female prostitution for men, the asymmetries are also extensive. Few women in Japan straight up meet a male prostitute regularly for pure sex.

At any rate, it is interesting how cultural narratives about female sexuality have changed over the years. I believe that it has long been understood that relatively unrestrained female sexuality is less compatible with the wide spread enforced monogamy paradigm than male sexuality, for a variety of reasons. So while ancient thinkers did not necessarily fully understand female sexuality, even when being candid, the bulk of their pronouncements on it were functional propaganda with an aim to preventing female sexuality from undermining monogamy.

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In terms of books, I have read a lot when it comes to my other interests such as geopolitics and history. But when it comes to gender studies, I mostly rely on the internet for reading and Youtube for video/audio. Real academic conferences on Youtube, or interviews with the authors of academic books, are great for getting most of the info. you can get out of a book, but in a distilled fashion. Usually fine for the amateur.

The thing to ultimately remember--and IMO this was the Achilles heel of feminist thought--is that you cannot really decide on gender balance/roles outside of the context of a functioning culture. Gender is just too central, and as we have noted, most biological impulses are culturally mediated. So I'm sure there are a variety of gender balance solutions that don't run too counter to biology and science that could work. But you have to nest your ultimate gender solutions within a culture that also functions.

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I have lived in China for the last 8 years, and getting English books is tough. About 3 years ago I went on a kindle binge and read a lot for 18 months (like 80+ books). But since then I've been off books and using the internet more, similar to how I investigate human sexuality.

As for geopolitics, I tend to hate international relations theory. Or at least too much of it. I prefer to read books by the principal actors or by more practical theorists. I liked Kissinger's 'On China'. Zbigniew Brzezinski's 'Strategic Vision' was good. HR McMaster's 'Battlegrounds' is good too. Those are three different US national security advisors. Theory wise, John Mearsheimer's 'tragedy of Great Power Politics' and 'The Great Delusion'' are sort of required reading. I have issues with neo-realism, but one has to understand it. And Mearsheimer is the ultimate undergrad professor--he's very easy to understand. Frankly, any Mearsheimer video covering either book will do as well since he lectures so well to the amateur.

[–]Mark_Freed1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks I appreciate it, I'm interested in understand China's wolf warrior diplomacy, the future of hongkong, string of pearls, etc. It's likely China takes on a larger influence internationally over time, their Han Chinese culture is very distinct from western culture and not always in better ways. Maybe because I grew up in a liberal place, I’d still prefer feminism over the Chinese culture of face, supressing dissent, nepotism, materialism, etc.

Since you are in China you don't have to say anything that would put you at risk but how accurate do you think the numbers are, the ones published? Do you see a demographic collapse there, will the 3 child policy help? Are you optimistic about the future of Chinese economy? Will the real estate bubble pop? Will china be able to compete with USA in terms of useful patents?

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As a woman it’s more than an annoying or inconvenience to have random men approaching you and making sexual comments towards you since you were 12 years old. Being catcalled out of a car when walking home from school or from work is intimidating and scary. Being trapped in a Starbucks until your male friend, uncle or Dad comes to walk you out because there’s a creepy man outside that won’t let you pass. Having a boss or colleague asking you to sit on their lap, lift up your skirt, being touched or grabbed without your consent, having a man stare at your boobs the entire time you are speaking. Looking in the mirror before you leave the house particularly if you are along to make sure what you have on won’t attract too much attention. Being afraid to smile or even look up because you know if you do men will interpret otherwise. Yep just some minor inconveniences .

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Yes the alternative is being alone, well knowingly that even with effort you only get humilating rejections. Working on your appearances and flirting skills just to see that it changes nothing, then getting told that you just suck and have to stop whining. Setting up dates and dates after nummerous one sided conversations just to get flaked, scamed or played by a women who will set up a situation to dump you making you the villian. Then you are again alone in your room and only to read and hear how difficult women's lives are with no mentioning of men dating struggles. Then again you hear only what YOU HAVE TO DO. Also trying to smile at women just to attain a look of utter disgust. Having to explain yourself to the gym staff because apparantly you stared at some random chick.

But hey. The two times i had to walk 10 minutes alone at night without any fear are totally worth it!

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I think this is just a matter of never walking a mile in a woman’s shoes or wanting what you do not have because the grass is always greener until it’s not. Obviously I cannot make you understand the abject fear a woman has when she receives this kind of attention, because as a man the strength that you have from a physical standpoint, the body that you are in, just means that you would never have that risk, or understand that fear. By virtue of the way that you look, no one would ever treat you in that manner. You simply cannot understand. Women have low self esteem, attractive women have some of the lowest self esteem of them all. Why? Because looks fade. When people overly focus on your looks, so do you. You want to make sure you live up to that standard. My parents had me in beauty pageants as kids and it royalty’s screwed me up. So here’s the thing I CAN empathize with men who are lonely and have faced rejection, and who are not desired etc. But men do not empathize with women like me or most women or any woman that is attractive. In fact most men are angry and hateful towards me. Another thing that I got was not just hit on but berated both online in dating and in person when I rejected men. “You stupid B why won’t you date me you think you are too good for me,.” So that’s the thing you want empathy you also have to give empathy. EVERYBODY is fighting their own battle. Just because you look good not he outside does not mean you are happy.

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No worries I don’t think you are being dismissive. I think it’s just a miscommunication. What I meant to say is that a lot of attractive people are very insecure about their looks. That’s not to say that unattractive people are not also insecure about their looks, they are, but people presume they are. It’s like that’s a given, if you are unattractive or even average looking its’ “normal” to have low or lower self esteem. But if you are a very attractive individual it’s presumed not only that you have very high self esteem but an awesome life. I often tell the story of when in my mid 20s after a horrendous break up I was seeing a counselor and I was seeing a counselor and over the course of maybe six months I had at least five different people that I recall 3 men 2 women say something similar to the effect of “why was I there I was too beautiful to have any problems.” So first I want to dispel the myth that attractive people have perfect lives. Second, yes beauty pageants make it worse but even without them attractive children particular girls are praised for their looks at a very young age and they learn it’s their worth. Whereas say maybe another girl who was smart in school or good at sports would be praised for that. It’s one of the main reasons why I became a lawyer. I wanted people to know I was something more. Personally I have never seen an unattractive baby, but yes I have seen unattractive kids.

[–]ohheyhi991 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Mark_Freed[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Totally agree with you on all points, especially the looks fade part. I feel men especially overestimate how important looks are. 1 you can work on looks a lot, 2 pregnancy, age, more younger prettier girls means you really can’t expect your partner to stay competitive in that department 3 when I love someone subjective beauty takes over and she is the most beautiful person to me. So at least during the honeymoon phase objective looks didn’t matter.

I think there are lots of men who will emphathize once they understand. One thing that helped me was black pill. When you read their ideas about how important looks are for a man, you get a taste of the life a women experiences. In black pill they talk about distance between eyes, Tilt of eyes, jawline, Norwood levels of baldness, etc. It makes men self conscious about their looks, they never worried that much about these things.

[–]Master-Edward-3 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Well maybe It’s likely human nature to never be happy in spite of the powers one possessed and privileges. This also sounds just like the rich man saying well being a millionaire isn’t all rainbows ya know 🌈. “Sometimes people only want to be friends to ask for a loan or gifts.

I might risk being robbed by degenerate thugs. Sometimes I do not know which luxury vehicle I want drive and I get carpal tunnel syndrome from counting all my money so yeah..A poor man like you could never understand the trials of the rich.”🤑

Women being the rich with attention, validation, social inclusion,social assistance, help, above their league sex partners and more.

Men being the poor with always nothing 9 of ten times and surely having to work to near death if not death for everything pleasant under the sun.

Men are no strangers to danger. Women can be dangerous and cunning. They often recruit other men to do their dirty work like robbing men that have been lured by a woman bait or honeypot I believe it’s called.

If women are that petrified of men than they are speeding down the highway then they ought to take measures to protect themselves to the point they are reasonably confident they’d do in an attacker.

If men had to step into a silver back enclosure to change their whatever they’d take precautions to protect themselves and still understand that it is a much better fulfilling life to be a human male than a silverback male. Women have all sorts of self defense mechanisms and training at their disposal.

And women are not afraid of all men just the ones they think are unattractive which they call creeps. A creepy acting Christian Grey look alike in real life isn’t creepy even or scary all of a sudden and is a New York Times bestseller among what audience?

I hear that fearful excuse all the time. As though one in two men are itching to serve a felony sentence over some woman.

I’ve also seen how women treat men and they don’t always act fearful until the man retaliates from something shitty that they were doing. Like screaming, spitting in his face over not getting her way or slapping him. Who is likely to splash hot drinks or drinks in a males face for something he said that wasn’t acceptable?

Women like that want to abuse men and get away with it then scream if there was a sign he might’ve raised his hand or got too angry.

Nobody said women do not get problems but I’d always prefer a daughter over a son if bringing a child in this fucked world. The female child likely has a smoother path ahead in the road of life than the male child.

I even would feel guilty bringing a boy into this world when it’s gynocentric and male hating because men are the expendable gender that will be treated like 💩 unless he makes something of himself beneficial to others in society or to a woman that they both can utilize from the worker bee men while women are valued for existing.

Just look at all the social media likes and comments attractive women get just for being goofy https://youtu.be/YCHahKQBC2E compared to attractive men counterparts https://youtu.be/_bRqOt_3qbQ just for posting daily life. How’s that for self esteem? Because it sure doesn’t seem like the women have it in low quantity. Just compare those two videos. And the male version is much longer and much older with more negative reviews and less 👍🏾 likes.

But as stated earlier this is basically the rich six figure man claiming he’s equally challenged and oppressed as minimum wage man metaphor.

[–]Gilmoregirlin 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Master-Edward-31 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Gilmoregirlin1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well I am not going to acknowledge that and neither will most women because it’s simply not true. I will acknowledge that it is equally difficult for both men and women, just in different ways. And I do not understand why men are constantly making it a competition as if they are trying to win some prize of being the one he has it worst? Men do have a harder time getting causal sex, because women don’t want casual sex as much as men do. Men have a harder time making friends with women because 90% of the time they are looking for more than friendship. I think men have it slightly harder when making friends with other men because in general men don’t bond with each other well. But as we get older making new friends is hard for women too, it’s just hard to meet people you have to really work at it. Despite what men say, and want to fantasize about women don’t really want friends with benefits like men do so yes it comes down to men want that more than women. Do men have a harder time finding relationships? I don’t know about that. If you truly wanted to get married tomorrow I think you could find a woman to marry.

No one is gaslighting you. I think what it boils down to is that men and women want something different. Men are out there primary looking for sex, causal sex and friends with benefits Or at least willing to accept those if offered. They may be okay if these lead to relationships but that’s not their primary goal. Women are looking for relationships. So there are not as many women looking for what you want.

“Women look for love and find sex”. This is their frustration in dating.

”Men look for sex and find love.” And this is theirs.

[–]Master-Edward-31 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The privileged of course cannot acknowledge their privilege I’ve noticed anyhow. The C.E.O of a company never likes to hear how much more he gets than his lower workers for less strenuous work.

You and most women then would be just like that in essence. Claiming being the C.E.O and entry level minimum wage workers has it equally tough. Women themselves always like to be portrayed as the underdogs or disadvantaged in all things even when that simply is not true.

Men do look for romance as well and relationships and marriage and you’ll find that it’s always the women that are first to back out of all those due to having always had more options than men.

Women have a simpler time getting into relationships because they can dump the boyfriend and know they’ll find another in a couple weeks while for the boyfriend who knows if it’s a couple months to a couple years. Women know these things yet don’t care for hearing it because they don’t want to know they are not oppressed in some way.

If you look at how different it is to even become attractive as a male and female respectively. It’s far more tough to look great as a man than a woman. That in and of itself is a sign that it’s significantly more challenging to acquire a mate for anything if you were born a male vs born female.

Which reminds me that perhaps in would be in your benefit to check out a brief documentary video about Nora Vincent a woman that went undercover as a man and finally understood how much drastically awful of a position it is to be in to court women and she was a woman disguised as a man to attract women. Let’s simply say she was quite relieved and glad to return to being a woman afterwards.

[–]Gilmoregirlin1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Answer me this? Why is it so important to you to have women concede that a man’s struggles are greater than a woman’s in dating? What would you gain from that? Nothing will change. Women are not going to suddenly start dating men they are not attracted to? I acknowledge your struggles. What are you gaining from constantly forcing this argument? What do you get from being the greater victim here? I don’t think and CEO would say that they are comparing their struggles to that of a minimum wage worker, But I also don’t think anyone would say that by virtue of being wealthy or high in power that CEO does not have struggles of his or her own. Being rich and powerful does not render one happy, plenty of rich and powerful people are miserable and we see plenty end their lives, nor does being poor render one unhappy. I grew up very poor and my family was quite happy. People that seek to have their struggles placed in some sort of hierarchy don’t make sense to me, why are you doing that? What do you hope to achieve? If you were suddenly a woman tomorrow, you would have plenty of struggles trust me, they would just be different than the ones you face now, and even presuming that you would have it easier in dating, you would have it harder in other areas of your life.

Some people are born with privilege I agree with you. A white male walks into the room to interview for a position in a room full of other white men, he is 10 steps ahead of the black female coming behind him. That does not mean that he is not qualified or that she is not either, it just means his privilege gets him a bit ahead. A child is born into a wealthy or upper middle class family, they have a lot easier of a time becoming a CEO of a company. Or someone like me is born into a poor family and works my butt off from minimum wage worker to lawyer and making a lot more money than I ever dreamed of.

There is so much on this page about how tough men have it in dating, and about how women need to empathize. We do, most of us anyways. We have brothers and cousins and friends and colleagues. We understand. Likewise our brothers, cousins, friends and colleagues understand our struggles too. But we don’t battle over who has it worse, I mean what’s the point? Empathy is not women changing who they date, women lowering their standards, etc. Empathy is I understand its’ hard for you all too, you will meet someone, hang in there.

[–]Master-Edward-31 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why is it so important to you to have women concede that a man’s struggles are greater than a woman’s in dating?

For one no more lies and gaslighting attempts. We’d likely all get further in discussion or debate if this was basically acknowledged as fact and moved on. I mean most men would agree that being a female parent is worse than being a male parent with the pregnancy and labor. So in this aspect of life where courtship is concerned why must women claim they are again on par with men or worse off?

I mean for the record..There have been a few women I’ve seen in debate on other sites like girls ask guys or guys ask girls whatever it’s called, that have admitted that they know it’s worse for men and do feel sorry for men but they were in the minority of course just like I’ve seen a few white knights admit that they falsely felt women have it worse. Just so they look cooler or “attractive” for agreeing with the lies most women believed.

Unless they were tall and or rich as NBA all stars 🌟 they ought to have known they were lying 🤥 through their teeth being men themselves only to look ok to women.

What would you gain from that?

As stated above some sort of closure. Of course women will only want to date the ten men on Earth that they weirdly only find attractive and think that they suffer from some external force because of their own excessive pickiness so long as they’ve got freedom of expression to. But this lie that women suffer as much as men or more just because they are paranoid that one in two men is incorrectly probably a rapist serial killer is asinine.

Or that women do not like casual sex or sex at all in spite of the same women turning around to contradictorily state that women do want sex and are equally horny as men which also is not scientifically acceptable as truth.

To a point it seems that women are only focused on equality in specific ways with men even at the cost of the logic that would otherwise make it make sense.

Also it’s not about saying the ceo or the privileged white male does not have their own challenges it’s that they do not compare (pun intended) to the struggles of the worse off. It’s also not about gaining a treasure or reward or charity.

Just an understanding that the downtrodden are not imagining they do have it worse and are not crazy for saying these facts of life which would be gaslighting. Yes if I was a woman tomorrow I’d have the issues that a woman faces and yes I know women have their own struggles.

Just I’d hope to retain the rationality of mind enough to realize that my new challenges no longer compare to my male counterpart. That I have society behind me and being single or the frustrated virgin is by choice now than by force until a partner decides they’d engage with me as I was being a man. (hypothetically speaking of course)

[–]Goodthingstartssmall 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Guess what? I have been dumped too. I have been rejected, I have had my heart broken. I have been set up, been lied to, been flaked on, thought that men cared about me and was just being used for sex. If you think that just because a woman is attractive she also does not get hurt or that her life is perfect you have zero clue.

Maybe 1/20 of what your (below-)average joe has and still you had several romantic experiences and options in one year than these guys get in a decade WHILE being mostly in the easier passive role. Fun Fact: NO life is perfect i never claimed it. There is only good and better or bad and worse.

Two times? Alone at night? I guess you don’t live in a city. I have walked two times alone at night in the past two days.

I studied in quite lively cities. Two times where it was more or less unavoidable. Walking past a group of thugs as a man is equally dangerous. Of course i tried to live my student life as much as i can but i managed transports or used my own car.

And btw. for the guy you described it is entirely an annoyance with the only drawback i can theoretically imagine is that an insulted women could accuse him of something.

[–]Gilmoregirlin 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Goodthingstartssmall 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

WOMEN DO NOT WANT QUANTITY WE WANT QUALITY. Having the ability to sleep with a ton of men or date them is not attractive or fun if 95% of them are undesirable and we don’t want the ability to sleep with random people we want relationships.

Most men actually also want relationships with roughly equal partners. But they don't have options. They have to crawl through every single bit. They don't even have the luxury to be concerned about quality in the first place.

Think of it like this, you have 95 women that all weigh 300 pounds and look like the most unattractive person you can think of, does that make you happy?

If i would be 300 pounds myself fucking yes. But if you overboil it with the most unnattractive people to be thought of while definetly most attention women have are from just normal to decent men this says a lot.

[–]Gilmoregirlin1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have come to the conclusion that most men on this thread have a very skewed experience and warped perception fo actual reality. They seem to be particularly socially awkward, and stunted and their experiences do not come close to mimicking the experiences of actual average men. They of course consider themselves the average man because they don’t know any different and the men they associate themselves with: mostly on reddit are similar so they begin to think that. Likewise I suspect they have little to no female interaction, and by that I mean, no female friends, sisters, cousins colleagues, classmates that they hang out with on the regular and know very well and that much of their information comes from this thread, reddit or the internet. What I read is that many of you are undesirable because of low self esteem, poor approach, bad attitudes, and just overall lack of experience with the female species, and I don’t mean in dating. No these men are not just average men that are approaching and hitting on women, they are men that could be their Fathers or Grandfathers, men that have not showered in months, that don’t have jobs at all, that are felons, look these are extremes. And even if they are not extremes they are still not men she wants to date. In the words one great song “It’s like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife?”

[–]Goodthingstartssmall4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Maybe you should change your own view on what is the "average experience". You as a woman always had socially better experience just by being a woman and hence you consider your experience and the few men around you as "average". The stating that most men are invisible isn't created out of thin air. And many redditors are having experience with the female gender but this exactly is what brought them here.

Ok now to boil down it to two alternatives before we leave the actual context or else you just start saying "you are not average then!".

Having to work for any scrap of attention and if you getting it, it's mostly people you are not really attracted to anyway and...
Having actual options for most of them you are also not really attracted to and hence complaining about it.

Pick your poison. Only one of them is even recognized by society.

[–]ohheyhi99No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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I think I can a bit. I am now a woman over 40 but in my 20s and for most of my 30s I was I suppose a pretty attractive woman. The type that would get catcalled on the regular and followed around by men. It started when I was in junior high. I hated it, I was embarrassed, I was afraid, I would constantly double check what I was wearing to make sure it was not too revealing. I am a lawyer and no matter what I wore I would get hit on and have men say things that were inappropriate to me in professional settings. I could not even order food without the person taking my order hitting on me. Men would say to me when you are "older" and men stop doing this you will miss it so appreciate it now. Let me tell you, I do not miss it at all, not in the least bit not even maybe. I love being able to go to the grocery store alone, to walk down the street without being bothered,

[–]ohheyhi99No Pill Man 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ohheyhi99No Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The drawbacks to being a Chad that I’ve heard are:

Some men who aren’t as attractive as he is will avoid hanging out with him or befriending him because they don’t want his presence to render them invisible to their girlfriends or other women
Making platonic female friends can be hard
Some Chads become cynical after being hit on or propositioned by other men’s girlfriends or wives, occasionally even within the same friend circle
Some women will date him as a trophy without liking him that much
Some women will hide red flags from him to reel him in
Less privacy because women are constantly hitting on him, even while he’s with others
Harassment and unwanted groping
Some partners feel insecure
Some women assume he’s a player

These things suck, but I think most men would prefer them over the downsides of being below average.

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[–]Crusty_Jizzsock 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I was Chad in my early 20s but not anymore since I gained weight. The difference between being an average guy and Chad is this. Back when I was Chad, I actively avoided women in the work place and other environments where I didn't want women's attention. It was a common enough thing where after awhile some women would just get weird. Women always shoot their shot for guys they find very attractive, if not explicitly then some very obvious hinting trying to get you to make a move. Women are much more sexually aggressive than men are when it comes to someone they find very attractive. I've even had issues with some married women. One woman I worked with even tried to cheat on her husband with me, very much out nowhere. Average looking guys can't relate to this kind of attention all. Women are not sexually aggressive with average looking guys. I know this because since I gained weight this doesn't happen anymore. I'd have to think back years. Once a guy achieves a certain amount of attractiveness, women become just as thirsty as men.

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They don’t do as many hookups as men would like though (otherwise hookers wouldn’t be a thing).

Yes, they do, it's just only with a small handful of men.

However there is social standing to be gained by women saying they don’t like hookups but engaging in them privately.

I hope this subsides over time. Women should be able to say they do it without worrying about reputation.

Not gonna happen.

That will never change for many reasons. Men do not want to LTR women who do hookups for whatever their said reasons are that's for one. And two, you explained why it will never be accepted and still ruin women reputations because women gain social standing by saying they don't like hookups so if they talk bad about it while still doing it they are still fueling the bad image it gives which still leads to it not being accepted in society so in a way they are only fucking their own selves over.

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Everytime that I (F) have expressed desire to a long-term boyfriend, they ignore it and don't return the expression. The opposite is true when I've dated women, who show gratitude and excitement when I give compliments, physical touch, gifts, stares, etc. Just my observation.

I'm sure men like it, but they don't seem to understand how to maintain it in a mutual way. I'm not going to keep telling you how sexy I find you if you just say 'thanks' and never tell it to me unless we're in a sexual context. I'm going to stop initiating touch if I'm the one who initiates it 100% of the time when it's not for sex. I love to buy my SO's little gifts, dinners, or favors that have meaning but I can't keep doing it if my bf takes those for granted, of if he always feels like the appropriate response is giving my the gift of his penis.

I think a lot of men want this kind of desire badly, but once it's given to them I notice a pattern where they are unable/unwilling to reciprocate (or at the least, show gratitude) then once I lose the passion to keep expressing these things they say the spark is missing. Well, yea.

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Nope lol. Unfortunately I tend to end up falling for men with little value. My last LTR or two years was 20 years older than me, overweight, balding, two annoying children, lives on a balcony, no car so I would drive everywhere, and acted like my above comment as far as affection. I liked him because of his positive viewpoints on life and his eccentricity as well as insanely good sexual compatibility, but grew resentful over time because he could never provide anything for anyone but himself and I was tired of giving and giving with no future in sight.

On dating apps I match with 99% of the men I swipe right on. I know I’m a catch just numbers wise, but there’s something about the typical hot, successful, young guys that makes me feel complacent. I like weird people I guess, but I need a weird person who also can provide at least 50-50 and have a family with me. After I broke up with the above guy I was so unhealthily hung up on him that when we still commuted to work together, I’d “accidentally” leave my dating apps open where he would see all the hot dudes I was messaging. I desperately wanted him to understand how out of his league I was the whole time, but he won in the end because he just didn’t play that game in the first place. That’s why I was attracted to him in some part.

I went on a date with the CEO of a tech company you would know a few months ago, he was average looking and worth 450 million. It was the most boring conversation I’ve ever had on a date and was clear we were incompatible. But I’m not an idiot, I had to try for a second date, and got ghosted for the first and only time.

So that would be an example of pursuing above my SMV as you said, yet I believe authenticity wins out in the end and if someone is really seeking something authentic they will find it and not end up in an unhappy relationship just because the guy checks off boxes to attain a high SMV. That’s how I feel about that.

[–]sltkr 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Mark_Freed[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Very interesting story, do you think you have self esteem issues? We accept the love we deserve kind of scenario going on? Because it sounds hard to believe you found that guy attractive…

I’ll be happy if you say you are mentally well balanced. A friend told me she is opposed to a large age difference between partners, her argument was that it was only people who have trauma, mental issues of some degree who go for such pairings, so the guy in this case was taking advantage of the younger girl.

I didn’t agree with my friend because I believe adults of any age can have healthy relationships but now that I met you here, I wanted to know your thoughts. Is this a pattern that keeps repeating for you? Does the decades of experience and maturity cause it hard for there to be 50 50, or equality, is there a natural power dynamic which is not good for either of you?

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Lots of men let themselves go, and get straight up bummy once theyre comfortable.

I have a relative who is always bummy, never cleans (as in leaves dirty dishes laying on the floor type of behavior) and he has no issue meeting women.

Im a virgin, have my own place, own car, etc. I can clean and all of that and I have some mental issues. I understand depression but I push past all this darkness to get dishes clean do laundry etc.

He has dogs, they can shit on the fucking floor and ill say "are you going to clean that up?" he goes "mehhhh..... muh.... my girlfriend will do it when she gets home..."

Like if I make a slight mess I clean it immediately.

Ive brought him up on reddit and women DEFEND him saying he must have an amazing personality, he gets girls and sex!

He has no hobbies besides video games, refuses to work, his girlfriends somehow always work. If I hang out with him, he constantly has his phone blowing up with girls calling him and texting him. He is so lazy he wont even shower. He never brushes his teeth, and is praised by women, they tell him they love him.

He doesnt even have to try.

so what exactly is going on there?

[–]Mark_Freed1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]EmptyApartmint1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I honestly don't think you're being completely transparent in your story... But, I'll bite.

Your uncle is a complete bum and no self respecting woman, who has options, would be with someone who has THAT little to offer. He looks like shit, doesn't work, doesn't clean, etc? If he's with someone who puts up with that, than she is severely insecure and clearly does not think she can do better. There are a lot of scenarios in which the guy looks like shit and provides very little, and has a woman, but there HAS to be something tying them together- like children or a legacy, etc. Usually men can get away with some things- but if he brings NOTHING to the table- I don't see why a woman wouldn't cheat... Which is the point of this topic.

Your uncle's wife might be cheating on him- but he's so self absorbed and lazy that he probably wouldn't even think of suspecting it- or caring, unless it was brought to his attention. I really doubt that your uncle (if he exists) has "no problem meeting ladies". There are a lot of trashy individuals who will put up or admire shitty qualities- maybe he's attracting lot lizards? Do YOU want to attract women who would be attracted to men like your uncle?

You should stop having things with the objective being to meet women. That radiates desperation and overt peacocking, have and do shit you like for yourself- women will fall into place. Assuming you're not making up the story about your uncle, if he's physically good looking enuogh- and has "game", he may very well be getting his phone blown up by insecure, stupid women. But there's no way in hell that most women would be attracted to a gross looking scumbag.

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He insisted he could support the family on his low wage job in a high cost city but he couldn’t. When I brought up the idea of a career change or move he always shot it down immediately keeping us stuck. So I took a job working nights in a care home to help keep a roof over our heads. He took that opportunity to bring other women into our bed with our kid sleeping in the next room. I didn’t know this at the time but knew something felt off and I didn’t really trust him anymore. I was absolutely exhausted. He pestered me for sex but never tried to actually attract me. When I would give in (just to get some peace from the sulking and door-slamming) I felt like a meatsleeve he was masturbating into. He did not care that I wasn’t into it. He didnt try. Because in his mind he was entitled to it. So yeah. Pretty much all that.

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[–]Mark_Freed0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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If you keep hearing that women don’t take responsibility I’d say you are spending too much time in the manosphere and not enough in the real world. In life women are taking responsibility all over the place. They work hard, raise kids, care for elderly parents…often alone. I am not special in taking responsibility for my mistakes! I’m average.

The age of consent issue is not something I have any insight into and I know it’s complicated. I absolutely raise my eyebrows at large age gaps and try to very gently point out why they are almost always a really bad idea for young women but young women rarely listen. I have a 29 year old relative in a relationship with a 60 year old 🤮 it’s not a sugar situation either. I’ve tried so hard to tell her but she’s convinced they are some sort of special case. She’s going to find out the hard way.

[–]Mark_Freed2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh yeah I hear this stuff mostly in the online world, in the real world I see both genders take responsibilities, people are quite traditional in my part of the world.

The liberal, progressive youth from my generation are scared of responsibilities, of kids, taking up ownership and working on solutions. I keep hearing them blame externalities - I am depressed, my parents raised me poorly, capitalism is evil and the job market is too hard, I can go on and on. I am sure there is a lot of truth to their claims but it is not useful to just blame all your problems on reasons outside your control.

The liberal, progressive youth from my generation are scared of responsibilities, of kids, taking up ownership, and working on solutions. I keep hearing them blame externalities - I am depressed, my parents raised me poorly, capitalism is evil and the job market is too hard, I can go on and on. I am sure there is a lot of truth to their claims but it is not useful to just blame all your problems on reasons outside your control.

I was drawn to the manosphere because I saw this happening around me and wanted answers and explanations. I am educated, liberal and quite modern in my country so the percentage of people "infected" with this idea of nilhism, moral relativism, existential crisis, external locus of control is small as a percentage of the total population but quite high among people who are woke feminists. More women are feminists so I do see this behavior prevalent among women.

I think it also has to do with gender roles, while women are more likely to be objectified, men are likely to be subjectified. Men are not allowed to complain, they should suck it up, face the harsh reality. More men feel like they are protagonists of their life with agency and are active, taking responsibility, their well-being is taken as an end in itself by others. Women are acted on, are passive/receptive, have less freedom, are wanted, protected, and found useful/valued by others intrinsically (objectified).

Ahh ok, the consent issue is quite complicated, in a few decades maybe we will have more informed discussions around it happen. It is a very relevant question since it forces us to ask how much capacity do adults have to make decisions they can take ownership of, the more freedom of choice we give people, the more we hold them accountable for the outcomes of those decisions.

[–]AnnVealsMayonegg2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Very interesting take. I guess I was equating “taking responsibility” with actions but you’re right - attitude is a part of it and most people these days do have an attitude of not taking accountability even when we act responsibly. I find accountability beautiful because it’s a form of personal power. I wallowed in a state of victimhood for a long time and found others really perpetuated it. I went to therapy to heal but all we did was rehash my hurt feels over and over. There was never any talk of how I could protect myself from making the same mistake again. There was never any examination of the ways I contributed to my own suffering by ignoring my gut feelings. Not that I believe in victim-blaming but I do believe in giving people tools for growth. Owning up my mistakes feels….empowering (it’s a mushy word - sorry). If I can recognize my weaknesses and distorted thinking I can change them. I’m not doomed to a life of heartbreak like I thought. Taking ownership makes me feel like a whole autonomous person of will and agency and not just a sad scorned little wife. Victim state is just shackles and chains. I’ve served my time in them and I’m done now. No more.

The age of consent is grossly low in my country but I was 20 when we met so I definitely wasn’t groomed by a pedophile. I think it’s crazy that you can get married and make an entire person years before you can even vote. I’d love to see the AOC raised to at least 18 but I don’t see it happening. Our prefrontal cortex isn’t even fully developed until 25-27!

[–]Mark_Freed2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I totally agree with you, when we hold people accountable we acknowledge their free will, we respect their agency. You are in control of your life, you are allowed to make decisions and we respect that. This is how the justice system works too, we don't hold kids and mentally ill people responsible. We hold adults who are strong, independent humans responsible for their actions. Empowering is the perfect word!

But like everything else we need balance, we need to acknowledge there are aspects outside our control and learn to live with it, or try to change it slowly in the long term. Also sometimes, in particular contexts, right after getting robbed or assaulted it is insensitive to force them to take accountability for the role they played in making themselves a target. Maybe he wore expensive clothes and walked in a dangerous part of town. He got mugged because he took risks, but we should empathize and help him in the moment and maybe later once we all calm down do a post mortem analysis on what happened, how to move forward from it and make sure that does not happen again. That is how real growth happens.

Otherwise people keep making the same mistakes, keep suffering and ask others not to judge them based on their past. That is just crazy. I get really triggered when I think about how we are competing based on who is more "oppressed", making being a victim a core part of your identity is not healthy at all. I am glad you managed to get out of that.

Yeah, I need to do more reading about that. If our brains really don't develop until 25-27 then we may need to prevent adults below that age from entering into contracts, entering the army, driving, drinking, smoking, getting plastic surgery, etc. These are really hard decisions, just like picking a partner which you can go to jail for, die, get wounded, suffer from addiction, go into debt. In fact with a partner the consequences are usually not as bad. With improved life span it should be possible that more of us study up to 27 and then work. Most work will eventually be automated.

The thing is the economy needs the labour so it is unlikely this happens soon. But I think I'd be in favor of more research into this. Just like we have brain death for death instead of heart stopping, brain awakening for birth instead of the baby leaving the womb or conception. We need age of consent to be tied to medical research on brain development.

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Stop pushing for sex. Because when you do she wants sex less and its a vicious cycle. Stop getting upset or pouting or arguing your case or whatever it is you do when she says no.
Be happy, relaxed, appreciative and fun whenever you around her. Don’t be in a pissy mood because no sex. Mood is infectious, you want to model the mood you want her to have. Do fun things together. Make her associate you with only good vibes, feeling good/relaxed/happy.
Eliminate all obstacles to sex. This includes having no free time together, house is too messy/stressful with chores piling up, tired all the time because of shitty lifestyle, etc. Hire a sitter/cleaner if possible, let her have free time, alone time, just time in general to unwind and not be a mom.
Do this for a few months so she does not think “he is only being nice for sex.” AFTER she is in a good, relaxed mood and the kids away from the house, go for sex. If she says no, DO NOT GET ANGRY. Laugh about it and offer to do something else fun with her instead. If she starfishes or has lazy sex DO NOT COMPLAIN. Be really appreciative - this will make her want sex more or at least not want it less. Positive feedback, always.
Try to get her interested in her own sexuality. Awkward process, very few smooth ways to do this so its best to just be up front, pick a good time (no kids around) and say “why dont you check out some smut or porn? Might give you some ideas or make you feel more into it”. Make sure she doesnt feel like you are going to get mad later if sex doesnt come out of it. Erotica can be really helpful for mommed out, stressed women to start their engine.
If you really did your best to be best husband possible and not be angry/butthurt and gave her lots of fun and freedom, she will most likely have tried to meet you halfway and have at least some sex with you. If she didnt, dont waste your time on marriage counseling sex therapy or whatever. Just go straight to divorce or cheating. But hopefully it wont have come to that.

I know a lot of what I wrote is counter intuitive and emotionally, very difficult. You are probably resentful of her deep down and thats hard to overcome. You may feel like a chump because you are doing so much for her while she won’t fuck you. I completely understand, but it’s just one of those situations where you have to be the first person to set his needs aside and give freely, and hope that later she catches up to you spiritually.

The typical redditor “justice and anger, fuck them if they don’t shape up” mindset will not help you here. Do not listen to most people here — they will give you “advice” based on whatever makes them, the audience, feel emotionally satisfied like if they were watching it on TV. Not what will actually help you.

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I agree from a purely individualist point of view. But we are not individuals, we are actually carriers of immortal genetic material. For most of us what we do in our short lives do not matter, we are in charge of maintaining society, providing some service someone else would have done around as well. Capitalism has made us replaceable and more of us are realizing there is little meaning in most careers. Money is just means to an end.

Having kids, raising them well, molding the future generation of humans is a monumental task which everyone seems to be ignoring. If everyone smart understands the tradeoffs and makes the rational choice here, consider the quality of humans who will have kids and be parents, what kind of parents will they be, what kind of kids will be stewards of the earth in a few generations.

We need the best humans among us choosing to have kids, the smartest, kindest people. We need to respect and reward the people who choose to have kids. Without all this, only the few people brainwashed by tradition and religion will have kids and we will suffer the consequences.

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[–]D4sthian1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, i really haven’t seen a single woman here engaging with faith in any kind of discussion in all the time i’ve been here.

I’m not treating ALL women as monoliths. I do treat ppd women as monoliths since as i already said before, they never engage in faith, but for a gender agenda against men.

I know that there are good women out there, two of my best friends are proof of that. It’s not that the majority of females are like them, though so it’s not disingenuous at all to treat the ones you don’t know like a monolith, until they prove otherwise. Don’t women think all men are X and Y and treat us like that until we prove them otherwise? Why is this worse than what they do?

Yeah, men and women can work together, once females start treating men with respect and once men stop putting up with female bullshit.

We don’t owe society absolutely nothing, so we don’t need to swallow all that bullshit for the betterment of the society.

Let it burn to the ground, we don’t have to put up with their entitlement, shallowness and shitty behavior.

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But when it comes to sex it changes. i.e. She's told me multiple times, If I can't get off I don't see the point in doing anything for you.

I have a pretty low sex drive, so I understand not always wanting sex when your partner wants it. It's not I don't desire it, but if you're not in a specific mood or for example is upset about work or something sex could seem a bit like work. But at the same time, it's normal for a spouse to care about the happiness and wellbeing of the other. The point of doing something for you is to make you happy, there doesn't always to be anything in it for her. It's a selfish way of thinking on her part, and I'm not sure if she's aware of the selfish nature of it since as women we are bombarded with messages of "never have sex if you don't want to", which is there for protecting young women but your circumstance is a bit different.

Another thing is that it's one thing to think "oh I'm not in the mood for sex right now, I feel kind bad and don't want to do that right now, it feels like work". It's another thing to say that to you, since it's clear that it will make you feel exactly how you feel right now, which is hurt. Like you can think your wife's body isn't the best after she gives birth, but you don't say that because you don't want to hurt someone's self esteem.

I'm concerned that she doesn't appear to care about your feelings or wellbeing.

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But when it comes to sex it changes. i.e. She's told me multiple times, If I can't get off I don't see the point in doing anything for you. Mind you any time we actually do have sex she always cums first. A lot of times she cums twice.

I've asked about why she doesn't seem to want to have sex more often. She blows it off and says it's because we've got things to do or she's busy. Or we're in a rut, it's just how things are. Do I really don't know why we don't have sex more other than she doesn't desire to have sex with me anymore.

You need to have a "we need to talk" moment with her on this. You need to tell her that feeling sexually desired is extremely important to you, and if she no longer feels that then we need marriage counseling. However, realistically, you need to prepare for the strong possibility of a divorce. Your wife might still love you, but it seems pretty clear she's not attracted to you anymore.

MAYBE you can ask for an open marriage and see if you can find sex with someone who actually desires you, but realistically that almost always ends in divorce anyway.

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There's nothing wrong with leaving, don't fall for sunk cost fallacy. I think people are quick to say leave because they recognize a situation as irreconcilable. In the past, people encouraged staying in unhealthy relationships because its marriage and that's what you do. That mindset inevitably leads to deadbedrooms and other issues. You've communicated your feelings multiple times and she's waived you off without a valid explanation, that is unacceptable to me. She isn't even trying to communicate or resolve the problem, which is the bare minimum. Which means she doesn't give af how you feel, and once your partner stops caring, its time to go.

When my past relationships went through a dry spell, I went to my gf and communicated my feelings openly and honestly. Because she cared about me, my feelings, and the relationship, she wanted to do whatever it took to make me happy. We were both busy at the time and hardly had time to meet but she agreed to rearrange her schedule for sexy time. Better, instead of the 3 times a week I wanted, she asked for 4. We came to a compromise by rearranging our schedules and making time for each other.

Your wife is unwilling to do even that apparently. If I were in your position, I would end it, because she shows an obvious lack of interest. Even if thats not the case, incompatible sex drives is more than enough reason to end it.

However, I don't know the full story, I'm just going off what you've said. Maybe you're right and its not that big a deal. Either way, good luck.

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This is the problem. They will have a heart to heart conversation, he's going to tear himself up, she's going to cry, he will feel sad, she will feel pitty for him, they will understand each other better and they will come up stronger as a couple...

But she won't feel like fucking him anyways. May be she will pitty-fuck him a few times here and there but 1) It won't last long until she reverts back and 2) I'm pretty sure the guy doesn't want a pitty fuck, he wants her wife to desire him

And I understand her, trust me I really do, she's NOT ATTRACTED to her husband. What can she do?

Hell, imagine if she had a dick, she wouldn't even be capable of a pitty fuck neither, she would go soft every time they try to have sex.

Have you seen how insulting is for women when their men can't get hard?

Imagine if women where more like dudes down there. Super sad.

I agree with terpers here. Attraction can't be negotiated. It's there or it's not.

My advice is work out, change your looker, get a nice aircut, grow a beard, have some tatts, whatever you like, and then you do you.

Try that for 6 months and if it doesn't work lawyer up.

That's in my opinion the best advice a man can get, from the redpil, another man or anyone.

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So women enjoy that desire imbalance where she is desired more than she desires him.

It's not that they enjoy a desire imbalance. All relationship pursuits are done for one's own desires, not the desires of others. Women who want a man to notice them don't give a fuck about him or what he wants as long as he wants them.

Hmm, that is gonna be hard with the whole hypergamy idea that RP tells. If a women pairs with a man who is better than her, she is likely to love and desire him more than he does her.

Possibly. The alternative take is that a woman would only value the man in this sense for the validation that he brings in wanting and being with her. An attractive and successful man wanting a woman translates to "Wow, I must be highly valuable if a man of his caliber wants me and that makes me feel good."

Girls have high standards and lots of requirements how important do you think this desire to be desired more is for most women?

Considering that most of women's sexuality is reactive, I'd say that it's pretty important, if I'm understanding the question correctly.

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In my case I have noticed that when women desire me they tend to distance themselves as soon as they figure out that I am unattainable. They start acting cold, distant, aloof, and emotionally shut off, whereas before they were more warm and welcoming.

Do I enjoy being desired? Maybe when I was younger, probably. But now I just don't care. Don't get me wrong. I am much more desired by women now that I am older and more settled and organized than I ever was in my 20's.

Being desired places a sort of performance anxiety on a man as well. We feel we are on her spotlight and feel as if we must tread carefully in order to not to disappoint her. Maybe that played into my decision to go MGTOW from a very early age, who knows. But at least for me, being desired was never something I welcomed or enjoyed because as a teen I disliked the female gaze. I don't know why but women desiring me has just never felt right, something feels wrong about it and I could never figure it out and now I am at a point in my life where it doesn't matter anymore and I just don't care either.

So do men in general like being desired? I bet some do, especially the Assertively Effeminate ones. Those who are macho in their effeminacy. Meaning those type of guys who believe that they are the prize and that the woman's job is to sweep them off their feet and rather than being passive about it like a truly effeminate man they are assertive and even aggressive about it like a little macho who feels he deserves his due admiration from women. This sort of guy disgusts me to no end by the way. They are bold and proud to boast about their parasitical mindset.

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hierarchy of priorities of a woman

1) been desired by attractive men (maybe.. not sure but maybe she can desire them back)

2)been desired by average men (quantity over quality ,she wont feel anything if one stop desirng her because they are powerful as a group )

3)desired by unattractive men (no value in that outside money or some sort of assistance (school ,job emotional tampon)

women want to be desired they want to hold the power , subconsciously women could desire an attractive or ever average man but her ego is too big to do something about it , i know a woman who blow up good future relationship because" he's not very much into me" wtf that mean , iwas like well you can make him like you by showing him that you care about him and use your personality , and she get offended , it was like how dare you ask me to do the bare minimum you fucking idiot!!

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When a woman shows too much interest or eagerness for a man

I think the turn-off happens when these men don't really believe they have value. When I used to struggle with self-esteem issues it used to be more of a turn-off when a girl showed that she liked me. While now when I have self-confidence and believe that I am worth the love, I interpret her interest as her having good taste.

It also seems to be signal high value when you are playing hard to get, we want what we can't have and value seems to be linked closely to scarcity. Whenever I show too much affection in a relationship it does scare the girl away and I think I come across as desperate? So often I need to hold back and slowly show how much interest I have.

So this dynamic exists for both genders but men are forgiven more easily for chasing and women find it harder to chase? maybe it is social? maybe partly biological?

I don't see how a man would interpret a women's desire as a "desire for him to desire her and pursue her". I guess I notice men become complacent and stop "chasing" after they are comfortable in a relationship, but the women's desire won't motivate him to pursue her. If anything the loss of interest might be due to complacency? taking her for granted? gaining confidence through her and believing he can do better?

In my personal life, I only know of girls breaking things off with the guy. I don't have any experiences to draw from regarding that loss of interest men feel. Maybe someone else can enlighten us if this happens and why.

“I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.” - Groucho Marx

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Very accurate. I work in an office space where 5 young girls have a crush on me. Out of them, 3 have a serious crush on me. Out of the 3, one girl is infatuated with me like crazy infatuated. She might be the second ugliest out of the 5 and the remaining 3 are above average attractive. 1 is very attractive but she hides from me a lot even though I catch her staring all the fucking time. My point is the 2nd ugliest, shes rly not but just has a big nose, is who im targeting because the types of things she does is so flattering and cute.

for ex: the first few days, whenever i walk by her desk she would jumo out of her desk and follow me around from behind or walk fast in front of me and watch me from a hiding place. I happened to switch my desk to another spot and as soon as she saw that, she keeps walking by once every 30 minutes and stares at me as she walks by or visits her friend who sits near me way too often. Of course, if were in the same room or elevator together she goes bat shit. Its so cute and its endearing. It makes me want her more than the other girls. There is 1 other girl that started doing the same shit, but this girl is in the lead. Your hypothesis is correct OP.

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I used to think it was based on biological sexuality. Men seem to value more intrinsic qualities in women that they are born with, things that are closely tied to the women's identity - her physical appearance, her empathy, etc.

While women like men when they show commitment by being generous, putting the effort, time, resources into the relationship. It is a real measure of how much he cares about her. Desire is a type of caring, it is definitely related.

Women are turned on to see the guy they like, find attractive desires them so strongly that he can barely control himself. Men expected and still enjoy to an extent the demure, innocent girl. That trope is still popular. All of this is why I used to like the quote.

But like you said times have changed, culture has changed, gender roles are much looser and women are also expected to an extent to initiate, show interest. It can't just be men chasing the girl.

So I am sure this quote matter less to people who are progressives. hmmm but I am not sure, the whole wanting to be desired seems to be a primal thing governed by biology more than culure.

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Superficial or shallow means judging someone on traits that don’t really matter. I think a good example would be horoscopes or star signs, most rational people agree that it’s pseudoscience so they would say a person judging them desirable based on that is being superficial.

But looks are a good predictor of health, diet, exercise, lifestyle, stress, genes. Your kids will get those looks, easier to get jobs, lower jail sentences, halo effect. It naturally causes you to forgive their faults, you feel primal desire.

The blue pill idea that personality is important and looks isn’t is so dumb and laughable, you can work on your personality but it’s also determined by your childhood, genes etc. in the same way you can improve your looks to a large degree.

Please reconsider your beliefs. Looks matter and it’s sane to take that into consideration when desiring someone, I’d even argue it’s not a choice.

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[–]XASTA123 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]AdmiralDickoverPurple Pill Man 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

but if a woman “gives it up too easily”, they don’t respect her because she’s a whore.

This is largely a myth perpetuated by women-written dating advice columns.

I'm not saying there aren't men who think like this but...

Men will almost never directly call a woman a whore to her face after they've slept together for the first time. The assumption, "Oh he thinks you're a whore because you gave it up too easily" is almost always insinuated by the woman. Honestly I can kinda understand why it became such a popular saying because it's a comforting, one-size-fits-all assumption that ignores the millions of possible reasons a man could've dumped you, the most common being:

He was always only interested in sex. He put you in the "casual sex" category from the start. There was nothing you could've done. Its not like he was interested in a relationship, then changed his mind because you had sex. He left in spite of the sex, not because of it.
Something you said or did on the first date put yourself outside the "relationship" category and into the "casual sex" category. He faked being interested in a relationship in the hopes you'd have sex with him.
You were not very good in bed.
You're just not that attractive.
Post nut clarity.

None of the above reasons are justifications or excuses. Many of them are shitty in their own right and a lot of them can be solved by simply waiting a while to have sex, assuming you are interested in a relationship and not a casual sex partner.

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Title	Do men enjoy being desired more?
Author	Mark_Freed
Upvotes	101
Comments	564
Date	August 27, 2021 12:46 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/pcmmis/do_men_enjoy_being_desired_more/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-men-enjoy-being-desired-more.1065437 https://theredarchive.com/post/1065437

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