No "issues" presented by TRP are solvable without also compromising the idea that women deserve equal rights to men.

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2022-07-22T17:22:39+00:00

A lot of the time they suggest MGTOWing, that's not bad and doesn't infringe on women's rights.

wtknight · 2022-07-22T17:14:12+00:00

Simply speaking, a world where women are structurally barred from meaningfully participating without being married is the only thing that would solve the "problem" of women having sexual agency.

This isn't true. The market could be made equal if men gave up having casual sex and collectively decided to only have sex monogamously. Average women's rights wouldn't be compromised, then. They just wouldn't be able to have sex with the men who they are most attracted to because these men would already be in relationships with more attractive women and would therefore refuse to have sex with the less attractive women.

In essence, the "sexual market" would be destroyed because men would choose not to participate in it and therefore only a monogamous relationship market would exist.

WOPR-1983 · 2022-07-22T18:01:04+00:00

~~R: Of course not, we merely want acknowledgement that it is a problem.~~

R: This isn't about changing women. It's about informing men so they can make better choices.

The "back to the kitchen" Trad Con subgroup of Red Pill is giving Red Pill an over-all bad name.

I'm a RedPill and MGTOW and am 100% on board with women being strong and independent and having careers and not depending on men.

I'm not compatible with women who are 100% independent from men, and have no idea why any man would want or need a "committed long term relationship" with such a person. Just do fun things together. No need for traditional contracts, marriage, common law, etc.

EmptyVisage · 2022-07-22T18:15:30+00:00

Simply speaking, a world where women are structurally barred from meaningfully participating without being married is the only thing that would solve the "problem" of women having sexual agency.

That is deranged. There are so many stages between doing nothing and proposing totalitarian government policy. I don't actually agree with TRP but it is a social movement with social solutions. Large amounts of sexual behaviour and attraction seem to be influenced by culture. A simple solution would be to push for social change. Change people's belief systems and over time things will become less dire.

thedeadpill · 2022-07-23T03:42:43+00:00

As others have said, I don't think it's about acknowledgments or societal solutions.

It's about men making informed choices about marriage and commitment in general. The Laws™ dictate that you can (and likely will) lose half your stuff without recourse and that you don't have any reproductive rights beyond using birth control, and that you could be the victim of paternity fraud (with variable recourse based on jurisdiction), and men are still being shown the same shit from 30 years ago in the mainstream: That women are on the back foot and need state/legal help to be on even footing with a man, that women are the victims always, and that men should not be helped under any circumstances.

I'm not a redpill adherent, but I think that they have some important notes about society. If you are in jeopardy and are a man, no one is coming to help you. No one will even notice. Should you participate fully in that society? Well, probably not, unless you're exceedingly generous or well-off.

This is the thing you all appear to dance around. TRP is inherently misogynistic because it is incompatible to accept that sexual agency in women is a problem without also accepting its implied solution: that women ought to be a second class to men.

I would say that this is the diametrically opposite conclusion to have. TRP acknowledges that women have agency, attempts to predict the likely outcomes, and then advocates you behave in a manner that is personally beneficial. If nothing else, I think TRP is predicated on the idea that women are not controlled by society at all, and that you must take their (predictable) agency as a given in order to maximize outcomes for yourself.

I would not say that TRP concerns itself with 'oughts'. It looks at what it can predict (some of which is incredibly unreliable), and then advocates decisions based on those predictions.

catchtowards12345 · 2022-07-22T17:04:54+00:00

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PMmeareasontolive · 2022-07-22T20:34:32+00:00

You are confusing RP with traditional conservatism. RP doesn't advocate lessening anyone's freedom of choice. It attempts to describe the world as it is, and then suggests how you might interact with it given that information. What to expect and what not to expect. That's it.

catchtowards12345 · 2022-07-22T18:23:29+00:00

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parahacker · 2022-07-22T21:29:47+00:00

Boss, you haven't thought this one through. Acknowledgement is its own reward. Or rather, has knock-on effects that don't require some kind of draconian top-down order imposed on society to fix.

I mean, you really haven't put any fucking thought into it. Take the case of just dating, asking for dates, etc. - all that initiating shit that men generally loathe but women generally refuse to do. What if, crazy thought - what if that kind of activity was respected because the challenges were, ahem, acknowledged? And I don't mean the occasional pithy 'yeah sucks bro'. But widely acknowledged as a thing that is terrible to have to do and honor should be accorded those who do it.

I mean that would solve at least 30% or so of the shit men here are complaining about right out of the gate. And that's just dipping my toe in, pretty sure I could build a strong case for how acknowledging the difficulties men are facing and the contributions they bring, and giving men less shit about it all when there's fuckups etc., would pretty much fix anything legitimately needing fixed in this nightmare difficulty dating pool people are dealing with, men and women both.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's fuckin' stupid to think that simple acknowledgement - if it's consistent and genuine - wouldn't be enough to sort most of this shit out. And quite frankly, it's not 'hidden misogyny' to say so, it's more hidden misandry to spew out the shite you wrote OP.

_krab · 2022-07-23T04:24:34+00:00

I don't get how you got from "genetic incels are a real thing" to "women should lose the right to open a bank account or be legally employed"

l1vefrom215 · 2022-07-22T19:13:48+00:00

As some have already stated TRP is about understanding the true nature of sexual marketplace, the various sexual strategies of men and women, and using this knowledge to your advantage for success. Most RPers have no problem with hypergamy itself. The logic is you’re not going to change social and biological sexual behavior, all you can do is understand it.

I’ve never heard of any RPer talk about taking rights away from women.

catchtowards12345 · 2022-07-22T17:04:20+00:00

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flakybottom · 2022-07-22T17:17:58+00:00

Not RP, actually blackpilled, but I don't want to take away women's sexual agency. I want them to have responsibility along with that agency. Can't blame everything on men anymore when you are the one making the choices.

Traditional_Job2467 · 2022-07-23T03:55:10+00:00

Projection much how little rights that men have as yet women in 1st world can get away with taking everything from a man and even false accusations that everyone will blindly believe

AidsVictim · 2022-07-22T21:54:26+00:00

The "sexual market" and the desires of people there in are a product of a complex society where people are socialized under the most sophisticated and effective systems of psychological modification known to history. This argument that womens sexual-social desires are a) natural b) sacrosanct assumes a lot from a liberal end of history viewpoint i.e. that we have arrived at the best, most desirable, and "natural" endpoint of a developed society and that the desires of the individual for the best "product" supersede the good of society. Any other way of organizing society or values are a regression into barbarism and "incorrect" deviation from "nature".

Of course some elements of desire probably really are "natural" (i.e taller men are more attractive or whatever) but the hyper fixation on them where women would rather be alone than compromise on points of attraction strongly suggest elements of socialization affecting sexualization in a negative way for many men (and arguably for the women).

If a man becomes hyper fixated on breast size after consuming lots of porn, to the point he can longer find small breasted women attractive and would rather simply be alone or enter into socially unstable polygamous relationships than date small breasted women is that a good outcome for himself or society? What inherently about this process is so fundamental to him as an individual that we just shrug our shoulders and say nothing can be done regardless of how widespread this social-sexual malformation becomes?

Simply speaking, a world where women are structurally barred from meaningfully participating without being married is the only thing that would solve the "problem" of women having sexual agency.

And honestly I do not blame you. Avoiding having to accept that a whole class of people needs to be subjugated is good. But instead of accepting it, I would say you ought to reconsider the ideology that implies it as a solution.

This viewpoint is a false dichotomy, there are certainly more choices than forcing women to become second class citizens. You can provide strong economic incentives for people to marry (i.e. entry into colleges, professional corporate or government jobs, housing subsidies etc) or re socialize younger generations through cultural re organization oriented at monogamous romantic or family formation while ostracizing singles to name two avenues.

Laytheblameonluck · 2022-07-22T20:29:29+00:00

TRP codifies the idea that the "sexual marketplace" is fairest when women have fewer rights.

It certainly does not, it codifies that there are competing sexual strategies.

Simply speaking, a world where women are structurally barred from meaningfully participating without being married is the only thing that would solve the "problem" of women having sexual agency

Nope. TRP is about using women's sexual agency.

You need to do more reading on TRP.

See the Iron rules:

https://medium.com/@redpillnorman/the-iron-rules-of-tomassi-3e01b8c31d64

WilliamWyattD · 2022-07-22T18:50:15+00:00

The OP raises a legitimate concern, but goes way too far. He is making the classic mistake of modeling dynamics that exist on continuua. For example, a reduction of the female sexual leverage advantage would not necessarily mean an elimination. Similarly, a reinvigoration of the widespread monogamy paradigm would not necessarily mean returning monogamy to its peak levels. Rights themselves are on a continuum when you get right down to it, and there is room to maneuver that does not constitute putting males or females in chains.

In addition to the above, the OP rules out new paradigms and solutions that address male concerns about the SMP. We don't actually know how innately sexually selective and hypergamous women are on a genetic basis, and particularly how that natural selectivity manifests in a world where there is less need for male provisioning and protection, and where reproduction is easily controlled. We also don't know how amenable female sexual selectivity and hypergamy to various kinds and levels of socialization, many forms of which might not be considered coercive. Indeed, it might be argued that today's culture is artificially amplifying female selectivity and hypergamy beyond base biological levels.

So no, you cannot just assume various prescriptions from the descriptive phase of problem analysis, and thus determine that nothing good can be done, thus there is no point in even looking at and acknowledging potential issues.

Illustrious_Wish_383 · 2022-07-22T21:10:49+00:00

A sex positive society is a good thing but we shouldn't shame or ridicule sexually unsuccessful people, either. Additionally, the Just World Fallacy applied to dating needs to die in a fire.

Aluminiah · 2022-07-23T04:03:19+00:00

You claimed:

No "issues" presented by TRP are solvable without also compromising the idea that women deserve equal rights to men.

If you want to argue against the more sexist/extreme views of TRP I'm certainly not going to stand in your way. There are some horrible views out there that need to be picked apart.

But you have stated that there are no issues that are solvable. Nothing that can be done. No good points.

Quit acting like a more nuanced take is somehow impossible.

HolyPenguine · 2022-07-22T17:50:50+00:00

Society can just be a bit more balanced in its attitudes. It can start with spending more tax money on men's issues and less on women's. The effect of that alone would shift the dating market.

catchtowards12345 · 2022-07-22T17:57:04+00:00

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ahillbilly97 · 2022-07-22T19:18:23+00:00

What Red P bs have you read?

You’re mixing red pill with incel and MGTOW.

Real red pill is just a acknowledging the reality you live in (like you mentioned) and calibrating yourself to succeed in it.

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2022-07-22T23:24:56+00:00

Thank you for finally making this post because this is what I've been thinking the entire time I've been on this Reddit.

It seems like ALOT OF MEN here want to play Ring Around the Rosie and not really get down to core wants of society,
They are happier the more oppressed women are cause they inherently have more control . At least you are honest.

BothWaysItGoes · 2022-07-23T02:54:41+00:00

Thank you for this post. It really shows that many “progressive” people are just conservatives in denial who are afraid of their beliefs. If you think that a certain state of society would require total subjugation, it’s you who are the problem, it’s you who are backward. The only reason you don’t believe in reality it’s because you think that such reality could only be managed by subjugation of women, which is nuts and you are afraid of it. You are nuts and you should feel bad.

tired_hillbilly · 2022-07-22T18:25:26+00:00

Yes and no. Women would have fewer rights than now, but not fewer rights than men.

I don't think either sex should slut around. And I'm not saying it should be illegal, more like heavily culturally shamed.

HumanSockPuppet · 2022-07-22T23:37:47+00:00

The only right that is relevant in the sexual marketplace, regardless of sex, is the right to participate (or not). The right of free association.

Both men and women are free of obligations. Any contract they enter into is entirely voluntary.

Rexagon_2017 · 2022-07-23T02:41:27+00:00

Okay, I'm not answering the issue at hand because there's something else lurking in this post that irks me a hell of a lot. Specifically, the idea that "traditional" customs like marriage were created to oppress women - a claim both TRP and Feminists implicitly agree on.

Simply speaking, a world where women are structurally barred from meaningfully participating without being married is the only thing that would solve the "problem" of women having sexual agency.

Traditional marriage existed in a world where incurable STDs could cause you to literally go insane and die, Abortion was extremely difficult to do safely because of poor medicine, and contraception was not widely available - though it did exist.

For all intents and purposes, having sex meant a high risk of pregnancy for the vast majority of women. Hence marriage being seen as a normal part of a woman's life. Traditionalists were not all misogynists, many of the norms they upheld made sense in the context in which they lived\*.

The last part is why women's education, employment, and voting all seem to occur in earnest after the advances of the 19th century. Many of these ideas simply weren't practical for lower class women until that point. But upper-class women? Upper class women held power, got educated, married for love, and generally exercised much more agency than either RP or Feminism gives them credit for.

My point here is that the Europe and America of the 1700's through to the late 19th century was a lot like modern Africa, and in many ways it was worse. The same factors that contribute to Africa's male centric culture were in play in both Europe and America during that period. I know a lot of people don't like to acknowledge this, but parts of Africa are still very traditionalist for these same reasons.

\*Excluding forced marriages, child brides, and other fucking disgusting evils that were sometimes culturally approved of.

hoxt333 · 2022-07-23T03:21:42+00:00

Finally someone who realises it.

trele_morele · 2022-07-23T06:56:01+00:00

Equal rights are granted in the social/legal sphere.

In the dating/sexual marketplace, it's every man and woman for themselves. There are no equal rights on this plane. The premise is confusing

RoboAvocado · 2022-07-23T13:14:36+00:00

Nah, I think we should do more investigation about genetic modification thanks to it.

Netheral · 2022-07-23T17:24:36+00:00

R: Of course not, we merely want acknowledgement that it is a problem.

Herein lies the issue though, I think it's obvious to any observer like myself that acknowledgement does not create any sort of satisfaction.

This is not true. Receiving empathy can definitely create satisfaction.

ChudBuck · 2022-07-25T07:08:42+00:00

What do you mean by equal rights? Because eveytime you feminists go on about equal rights, it seems to be moreso about free goodies and entitlements rather than the rights you already had.

empresa_josefina · 2022-07-22T18:03:20+00:00

I disagree on a few fronts.

Acknowledge a problem and not having a tractable solution doesn’t invalidate the problem. Income inequality is a good example, no easy solution without massive redistribution, yet we can all agree the problem exists.
You suggest any interference with women’s would render women second-class citizens to men. However many solutions harm men too, specifically Chads. Enforced monogamy, for example, would force men who would otherwise rather have five women on rotation to get married. The tension in this case is between the sexual haves and have-nots, not purely between men and women.
Redpill being structurally misogynistic because the implied solution harms women. By that logic, #metoo is inherently misandrist because its implied solution harms men like Harvey Weinstein from being able to peddle movie roles for sexual favors.

I want to be clear because PPD women get triggered by what they think is rape apologia. As a society we have decided that certain sexual relations are problematic even if both sides consent. One obvious case sex with a minor. Another is sex with a power dynamic, for example with your professor, boss, influential industry figure, etc. If we only took consensual cases of bosses sleeping with their female underlings, we can make a case for restricting that choice. Female economic empowerment alone won’t eliminate this dynamic, so we can’t be completely libertarian about men’s sexual choice without ending up with sex-for-favors relationships in our institutions.

Unless you are willing to make the value judgment that the agency of women matters more than the agency of men - itself a violation of equal rights between genders - you can’t really take a completely libertarian stance when it comes to women’s sexual choices.

Edited for length but ended up being long

Spinning4plates · 2022-07-22T21:13:28+00:00

Lol you're looking at this like a woman (I know you're not one). I'm gonna be sexist in this comment can't be assed to be nuanced. Generally speaking women look at the world through the lens of "should".

You either should or shouldn't do that cause it's wrong, it's common sense. Female morality is generally deontological. The thing is in the realm of should, an observation isn't just an observation it's a confession. It's why women will never admit to something when they believe they know where the argument will go after the confession.

To give you an example my last post is about women who aren't into bi-phobic men. Some version of this question has been asked her to women dozens of times. Whenever women are asked and they don't realise that OP is trying to equivocate their preference for non bi sexual men to men's preference for not ran through women, they answer honestly and defend their preference.

Whenever the OP states his intentions, practically no women admit to being sexually repulsed by bi guys.

Viewing the world this way is why you take issue with TRP's viewpoint. You're hearing "things should go back to how they were when we were depressed" because that's the logical next step from admitting that any of TRP's views about women have a firm basis in reality.

Thing is it isn't though, that's not even what TRPers are saying. TRPers have simply observed that birth control and sexual liberation are a massive experiment that can go wrong in quite a number of ways and there are indicators of that being the case BUT it's great for men who take advantage of it and here's how to become those men.

Additionally, and this last bit is a rant but STOP CONFUSING REDPILLERS AND BLACKPILLERS! BLAKCPILLERS ARE THE ONES WHO WANT A RETURN TO THE OLD TRAD WAYS Ugh.

Eastuss · 2022-07-22T18:37:20+00:00

I agree completely that the only solutions we have are to strip women of their rights.

However that doesn't stem from misogyny.

You see, most red pillers have been raised by blue pillers who told them that "men had to change", that "men have to drop gender roles and not be assholes, not to run after women". Then they grow up to be teenagers and they notice that nothing works because they're the only one to play by the new blue pilled rules that are fair to women. But women aren't playing by the new rules, they still go by their incentives and they fully expect maximum gender roles from men while pushing the idea their gender roles are optional.

This is women's fault. Women wanted to change things, they wanted to have all the options men had, but they in turn didn't change and didn't give men the options that they always had. It changes the game in a state where women have all the options and can choose to take men's options, while men are forced to share their options with women and have no other alternative.

Having women acknowledge the issue exist can be the start of an awareness raise that leads to women changing. I don't personally believe women can change up the standards they expect men to change, but it's already an improvement to have them acknowledge things.

ZodiacBrave98 · 2022-07-22T20:00:46+00:00

'Red Pill' does not lead where you claim. Red Pill bills itself as a way of giving women what they want, not forcing them. Hypergamy can be hacked, it says, not chained.

Your claim is more Black pill adjacent.

There is no alt 'mainstream' view that wants what you claim. Even racist alt righters want women to keep their rights.

AyWhatITIS · 2022-07-22T18:22:26+00:00

The whole idea of TRP is to show an ugly truth and you could make the argument that human nature is fundamentally rotten as we are, at the end of the day, just animals. That being said I do feel as though when a man discovers the red pill he gets really angry, as I did. Now things have calmed down a bit and you realize that we can't go backwards. You can't make birth control illegal you can't repeal the 19th amendment, and so on. For the blue pillers out there, don't confuse the red pill with tradional conservatives. I think what we can do isn't enforced monogamy or denying women civil rights. We need to have fairness de facto under the law in family court. Alimony should be illegal and is a violation of the 13th amendment. We need juries for family court hearings and divorce hearings. Child support shouldn't be 55% garnishment at max 20%. Infidelity should be relevant legally in divorce hearings, we need to stop the narratives that Masculinity is inherently bad.

42% of children are born to single mother households

The average school shooter is a young male, who uses psychotropic medication, and comes from a fatherless home, and we fail to see the connections to these things surrounding Masculinity. Men are told since their children that being a boy is bad. 80% of teachers are female and most of the "ADHD" is in young boys who are then given amphetamine (Adderall) which impairs their dopamenergic singaling.

Little boys are different than little girls. Little boys want to play in the mud and run around, and because little girls are better at sitting still for 8 hours than them, we force feed them stimulants and wonder why over 70% of opioid deaths are male and why men commit suite 3 to 5 times more than women, meanwhile there are no men's shelters and no only male spaces anymore, (because women have to invade every last male space) and we wonder why we have such a sick society.

The state incentivises divorce, because the laws were written by divorce lawyer special interest groups to cause the most fighting amongst couples so they could get the most money. The state also takes 6% off the top all alimony and child support payments,

anjovis150 · 2022-07-22T17:52:46+00:00

Ultimately TRP is a giant cope to avoid dealing the realities of relationships and attracting mates. Pointless rationalization that will never actually satisfy anyone. The sooner people let go of thinking about the unfairness of reality the sooner they can actually get the things they want.

And of course sometimes people fail. Let's not forget that through history a large number of men have failed to reproduce and that's going to be the case moving forward. Biological reality does not care about equality or fairness.

BlueClamp · 2022-07-22T22:45:52+00:00

This is the most deranged thing I’ve ever read here. And that’s saying something.

TRP codifies the idea that the “sexual marketplace” is fairest when women have fewer rights.

Since codified is a fancy way to say written down, I want a source. I’m betting you can’t link to anything that says those words.

TRP just explains how women actually work and offers suggestions on how to get the sex or relationships you want by cutting through all the gaslighting and lies society tries to program men with. It doesn’t offer any systemic solutions. Because short of a totalitarian hellscape there aren’t any.

Mpc289 · 2022-07-22T23:06:56+00:00

Somehow no one ever talks about how you could achieve the same result by taking away men’s rights instead - so men have to marry for survival. Lol the women who are only attracted to chads are the problem, not the men who are hogging all the women

doggiedoc2004 · 2022-07-22T23:43:54+00:00

First off, I do not agree with your statement that it’s is a problem that women given agency are the sexual selectors. This is biology and hypergamy. So no. I do not acknowledge that it is a problem lower and mid “value” men are having trouble in the dating market or that it is our fault. We are using the new tools available to us to follow our biological imperative to mate with the highest value partner we can find.

Females are the choosers in most species. If anything, our ability to choose has been stymied for millennia as we have been treated as chattel for trade/alliances and forced to be with men we didn’t want because that was the only way we could exist safely.

So given our freedom, we should be exceptionally choosy. Biology demands it. Evolution demands it. More so than even what is going on now. We are a soft society. It would probably be best that the bottom quartile of both genders don’t reproduce.

If society goes to shit, really goes to shit, we will once again be chattel, traded for our ability to reproduce and give pleasure to men.

If men want something to blame for the current state of affairs, look first to the government that shipped all the good paying blue collar jobs over seas, corporations that keeps us fat, lazy and compliant with porn, video games,social media and shitty food so they have a massive unskilled and unmotivated workforce to fill all the shitty jobs. Those of us solidly in the upper class/professional managerial class are not having nearly the same issues with sex/dating and marriage as the general hoi palloi.

Men need to play the game as the pieces lay. You had control for most of our existence. We have a little control now. Make yourself as high value as you can if you want to be on the playing field.

everythingelseisfull · 2022-07-23T09:56:08+00:00

I can't think of many things that get talked about more than sex. These conversations have a major impact on the way that women choose sex partners. At a minimum, the messages women hear should not be above criticism. I can't understand why more of us, both men and women, can't see a problem with the endless affirmation women hear.

Yuo_cna_Raed_Tihs · 2022-07-23T10:49:53+00:00

acknowledgement does not create any sort of satisfaction

Disagree. I imagine it's quite satisfactory for someone to be told that the "problems" they're experiencing aren't in their heads and aren't their fault, especially after they've been gaslit for so long that all they need to do is shower or whatever

ZealousidealAd7191 · 2022-07-22T18:22:37+00:00

I don’t necessarily think the issue is that women need fewer rights in order for things to be fair. I think its 2 things

That women have managed to secure more rights/privileges while dodging the accountability that goes along with those rights and privileges.
I feel like one of the things feminism was really good at was framing social dynamics in terms of power and then convincing everyone that women have little or no power.

By doing this we’ve been trained to ignore women’s own unique and innate power (a power that only they have access to by the way) and give them more avenues in which to have traditionally masculine forms of power.

So they have woman power + man power - accountability. Whereas men have solely man power as well as accountability + women’s accountability

High_Pains_of_WTX · 2022-07-23T00:24:14+00:00

You are correct.

-TRP is intellectually dishonest, deals with all women (and most men) in bad faith, and is only interested in complaining about what they think is "fair."

-Their solutions perpetuate toxic masculinity by not acknowledging the emotional problems most of them need help with, due to being raised in a culture of toxic masculinity.

-The movement is susceptible to men with untreated Antisocial/Narcississtic/Borderline Personality Disorders (Cluster B PD's) who gain validation from naive and unhappy men that listen to their rhetoric.

-TRP (and the Manosphere at large) has a fundamental lack of knowledge on the sexuality spectrum or kink (outside of D/s, M/s), so many of these individuals are probably unaware that they might actually be asexual, demisexual/demiromantic which is why they are struggling to build romantic relationships.

They can only come out of the fog that this shit puts them in when they finally decide they want to. Making it more frustrating to talk to them. The manosphere is mind poison akin to a religion. A great smell test for this is to ask: who was the bad guy at the end of 500 Days of Summer: Summer or Tom? If they think it was Summer, well, you found yourself a live one.

LowCreddit · 2022-07-22T20:26:00+00:00

TRP codifies the idea that the "sexual marketplace" is fairest when women have fewer rights.

No it doesn't. You might have a point for the relationship marketplace, but TRP is the only one saying that rights, money, and niceness have nothing to do with SMV.

I think a lot (though not all) RPers find it too uncomfortable to admit that their idea of a fair society is one where women could not open bank account on their own, or have gainful employment, or maybe even vote.

You have read the Handmaid's Tale too much and TRP too little.

TRP is inherently misogynistic because it is incompatible to accept that sexual agency in women is a problem without also accepting its implied solution: that women ought to be a second class to men.

Sexual agency isn't the problem. Women's rights ~~are~~aren't the problem. The problem is that government programs, laws, and courts shovel so much money at women today that they see no point in being married. That is the only problem and it is already in the middle of fixing itself. Women's halo effect peaked in the 90's and is on it's way to going back into the negatives at an accelerating pace.

NotARussianBot1984 · 2022-07-22T21:01:45+00:00

Easy solution give free usa visas to all hot women. Bam no human rights violated or taken away.

bsmith440 · 2022-07-22T21:09:08+00:00

I think RPers want the culture norms of putting woman on a pedestal to stop. This culture tells woman that their mate should accept them no matter their choices or abilities. They tell every girl they are special and deserve Prince charming even when she is trashy tubby Tammy.

That is bad for both sexs but arguably worst for men who do not fair well being alone. Woman can die alone and be happy but they would be happier with a mate.

gorilla_blanco · 2022-07-23T04:40:06+00:00

It’s amazing…. #menaintshit but if we walk away from our posts and the world collapses it’s our fault…. Maybe we should have valued us more….

sarkington · 2022-07-22T18:01:34+00:00

Red pill does not concern itself with politics or laws so I fail to see how rights are relevant either

Gari_305 · 2022-07-22T18:52:58+00:00

Simply speaking, a world where women are structurally barred from meaningfully participating without being married is the only thing that would solve the "problem" of women having sexual agency.

Long post which basically means the 80/20 rule exists but it is unsustainable for society to continue thus women are rightly scared that they'll be forced to be with someone they're not attracted to for the betterment of said society.

This is why women will get mad and men will be somewhat content should society (read government) steps in and redistributes attraction.

Also we're seeing this playout somewhat via the abortion ban in which by default women will lose their SMV due to becoming single mothers in which the average male has a slight chance in getting some if he wanted it badly enough.

Welcome to the redpill

Barely-moral · 2022-07-23T01:36:22+00:00

The solution, as always, lies in technology. No need to turn half of the population into slaves with no rights if you can build slaves with no rights.

Just a matter of time before technology advances to the point we can replace women with technology.

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ruboyuri · 2022-07-22T20:05:00+00:00

I don’t recall red pill saying anything about “rights” and the sexual marketplace.

Karmanger · 2022-07-22T21:22:32+00:00

Arranged marriages…. Solves the issue, and keeps women as first class citizens.

You’re welcome.

RRBeachFG2 · 2022-07-22T21:28:05+00:00

So much slippery slope I’m snowboarding over here.

Catherine772023 · 2022-07-22T23:21:22+00:00

I actually do think there’s a fairer solution: get hotter to attract women

Kidkicker88 · 2022-07-23T00:44:17+00:00

All you talk about are what you believe they want and “implied meanings”

Sounds schizophrenic as

returning_op2 · 2022-07-23T01:07:45+00:00

The implied solution would be correct, if we wanted to "save" society or if we were in anyway invested in it, profiting from it flourishing. Not only is that not correct - I couldn't care less, the kicker is, I don't believe the old ways was a good deal for men to begin with. Why would I want back to a time where accidentally impregnating a girl means I have to marry her and spend my whole life working as a corporate drone to come back to a wife who hates having to be with me and kids that are taught by her to hate me? Is that what you think is my solution? Am I implying that?

Your idea about my implied solution is my personal hell. That's how wrong you are.

I use some tips to get affection because the game is rigged against me as long as I'm not in top 10%. That's really it, and there is nothing more.

neolib-cowboy · 2022-07-23T01:46:29+00:00

B: So what? Are women supposed to be forced to be attracted to men they're not attracted to? Are women supposed to be legally compelled to date men? Are women supposed to be obligated to agree to sex when they don't want to?

R: Of course not, we merely want acknowledgement that it is a problem.

It seems to me the solution is for women to change their standards, that the solution is a change in social norms, not a change in the individual rights of people.

Acknowledgment of the issue is an important first step of solving any issue, but mandating people do something is never popular. So how did social norms change? The state did not mandate that people change the way they behaved and acted. It was an organic process.

Fit-Faithlessness149 · 2022-07-23T02:38:57+00:00

It seems most red pill men are conservatives and probably vote Republican. I can't think of a better method to strip rights away from women than voting Republican.

MetaCognitio · 2022-07-23T03:04:16+00:00

Another solution would be men stop almost exclusively shouldering the responsibility of initiating and pursuing.

Having to do the work and deal with rejection takes your expectations down a few pegs and normalizes your self perception around what your actual SMV is.

Most guys know they likely can’t get that 10/10 because the rejection has forced them to evaluate themselves more accurately. As a result they have to bring some of their expectations down and find value in other things.

What do you hear often when women are asked what they rate themselves? “I’m a 10”. I remember seeing part of a show on attraction where people were put in a room and asked to pair up based on how attractive they saw themselves to be. One pretty large woman was shocked that the type of guys she might spend the night with, actually wouldn’t pair up with her.

The issue with the sexual market is partly that men are in a position where they give up their worth too easily, through pursuing and feeling like they are “getting lucky” if causal sex is offered. (You notice how women never ‘get lucky’ ?).

This results in women not valuing what men have to offer and “SMV inflation” happening happening while the women are younger. Once they get older and most of the men they desire are taken (they get married, or date younger), their market value corrects itself. So they either settle or lament not being able to find the type of guys they once did, “where are all the good men”. But those never took them seriously or the woman that could have married them passed them up for more fun.

What these “redpill” ideas do is make men aware of these dynamics and hopefully navigate them successfully. Even better they should identify women who aren’t playing this game. I think there are redpill cultists who see life in black and white and think every single woman is on the CC till they are too old (they aren’t).

Nobody wants to be settled for or feel like they are their partners last choice for safety.

For the record, I think men would behave identically if women were the pursuers and were giving up their bodies and money to pursue men (an inversion of the current dating landscape). It’s just human nature to be greedy.

Aluminiah · 2022-07-23T03:26:21+00:00

If all people ask for is acknowledgement of their issues, then why not give them that?

If people want to advance some implied political position, then either directly ask them questions about it, or ignore them. Either way they will be forced to stake out an actual real position, that can be attacked/argued over.

If there is some aspect of reality that BPs/women will refuse to acknowledge then its not really suprising that men see that refusal as insanity (refusing to acknowledge reality) and will instead seek out people to listen to that do acknowledge reality even if some of their views are kinda fucked up, like a lot of the RP community, because hell atleast these people are acknowledging reality.

Just because you acknowledge that there are aspects of the dating sphere that suck for men, doesn't mean you're endorsing a return to strict patriarchy or something.

Flintblood · 2022-07-23T05:52:52+00:00

Kyonkanno · 2022-07-23T17:16:06+00:00

I think there are many misconceptions in your post. TRP it's just a set of strategies (mostly for men) based on observation of the interactions between men and women wherein the sexual marketplace heavily favors women.

Note that NONE of these strategies deal with political stuff, therefore, not advocating for the removal of rights of women. TRP dwels in human nature. It tells a story about how were still heavily influenced by our instincts of reproduction, It teaches men that women are not some divine mythical creature to which we need to devote all our energies to please.

TRP doesn't encourage women to change, it teaches men the realities of the sexual marketplace and how to "best" perform in it, depending on what your goals are.

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2022-07-25T20:54:48+00:00

The red pill has been taken over by tradcons who want to revert society to a more traditional Era, the problem with this is society and women of today are progressive and do not want to return to traditionalism under any circumstance. There's nothing wrong with being conservative or traditional but you have to realize that you are in the minority in society. A better solution for these men is to date and marry women from more conservative societies instead if trying to impose their worldview on women who obviously see things differently.

Fat_Papaya · 2022-07-22T17:42:08+00:00

I don't really think of myself as RP as I don't read into their beliefs and such. However, this concept of denying women their ability to sustain themselves or participate in any meaningful way if they are unmarried. Has a certain appeal to me I suppose (I wouldn't support it anyways, don't attack me haha), the benefits that I would receive would be that dating would become much easier, it would still be quite difficult, as women would still get to choose their partner, so I'm still having to compete in a system that is very much like what we have now.

It would also make more and more women relationship minded at younger ages, I like this as I don't actually want to date around or any of those things but would rather just have a single partner for life. So this hypothetical world would make this process easier at younger ages, for example, if I had a partner we would be far more likely to enjoy each other's youths rather than spend it with other people, or in my case alone haha. We can develop memories in that time that I'd never be able to have now, especially as I have already missed most of the time I had to be able to do this, which does hurt me a bit.

On top of this, I feel like it would change cultural norms in such a way where people are more focused on developing stronger and healthier relationships. I think this would be nice as I feel like it would make women more active in relationships and more men may actually experience true love rather than simply being tolerated.

KingKlob · 2022-07-23T01:03:19+00:00

Just like the left want white men to acknowledge privilege, that is all me personally am asking for, women to realize and acknowledge they are privileged more than men are in the areas in which they are, such as dating and almost any social interaction, divorce, etc. Every person in the western world has some form of privilege in one way or another and every person has a disadvantage in one way or another.

Vtridolla · 2022-07-22T17:52:49+00:00

Fucking YIKES.

Women are up look how they got us talking we down exponentially…

ScarAdvanced9562 · 2022-07-22T17:16:48+00:00

You’re making an affirmative claim, so I’m assuming this is supposed to be a CMV.

Your logic is shit. Feminists say that there are too many men in high power positions, the president, the majority of congress, majority of billionaires, CEOs, etc. (turns out men are pretty cool). By your logic, feminists who complain about this want men to have fewer rights?

Do feminists want men to be forced to be less successful? Do feminists want men to do stuff they don’t want to do? Do feminists think women are obligated to success?

This even works on a macro scale with the wage gap.

Unless you agree with these statements, your logic is shit because it can’t be applied everywhere.

BadSpanglish2 · 2022-07-22T19:00:31+00:00

I don't think this is wholly true. Some of those in TRP who want to try and change the current sexual marketplace (rather than game the current system), advocate 'solutions' which do not create more inequality between sexes but rather correct for a perceived advantage which women have. These advantages stem from a traditional view of women and their abilities.

Examples of 'solutions' which do not make women less equal nor do they somehow reduce women's humanity, include:

Legal paternal surrender
Equalizing the law around termination or abandonment, to allow for the father to reject inconvenient parenthood in a similar fashion to women. This would mostly be prior to birth, analogous to abortion [commonly known as the financial abortion] and should only be an option if the corresponding rights are available to women - i.e. safe and legal abortion. In those places where you can abandon you child at a fire station or similar, it could be extended to post natal - although not if you wanted to do the next solution...

Massively reduced taxation, government and public services
On the understanding that women benefit most from government spending; from gendered services or funding gendered organizations, to greater pension burden (living longer and having smaller private pensions from earning less), subsidizing of higher education (higher numbers of women in attendance than men), even to lower tax receipts for women - women benefit from government spending more than men. The only area I can think of where men are a greater burden is crime and justice.

Given the unfairness in women benefitting from government spending more than men, reducing spending overall would improve true equality. Both men and women would then be more reliant on their own hard work, social connections and efforts to succeed.

johnnyferrera · 2022-07-22T19:23:22+00:00

That's all true and makes perfect sense. In a world without laws, women still have their pussy power and men have their physical strength. In such a world, women would need to trade access to sex for protection for them and their families. Not perfect, but it'd be fair.

In the world we live however, women still get to use their pussy power to make men do things they want but the reverse isn't true - men can't just threaten physical violence to get women to fuck. Couple this we the fact that the laws that make it illegal to threaten violence are enforced by governments that are funded by tax dollars of which men are net payers and women are net receivers.

You can see how this doesn't sit well with men who see women enjoying all the biological benefits of being a women (inherently attractive to the opposite sex) + the legal benefits of being a man while those men can't really enjoy women's biological benefits.

I'm not saying we should go back but I understand the sentiment.

wtknight · 2022-07-22T21:36:52+00:00

[permanently deleted]

HazyMemory7 · 2022-07-23T03:32:01+00:00

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what redpill is. TRP does not seek to solve problems. It does not advocate for fairness. It identifies behavioral trends and emphasizes accepting reality and adjusting accordingly.

This "men want to dictate who women can date!" is a laughable notion that no "pill" is advocating for. No blue, not black, not red. It exists solely to paint men as evil and detract from the discussion.

abagus101 · 2022-07-23T04:19:45+00:00

If unlimited rights with no liability, civic responsibility, or cultural cohesion leads to demographic collapse and the suicide of our civilization then I think a reasonable argument can be made to restrict rights on those grounds.

It doesn't even need to be anything that intensely radical, the vast majority of modern gender relations issues can be traced back to women entering the workforce en masse, and also society shaming motherhood as inferior to careerism.

Swapsta · 2022-07-23T05:15:35+00:00

TRP codifies the idea that the "sexual marketplace" is fairest when women have fewer rights.

First and foremost keep in mind that TRP is sexual strategy for men.

TRP says that the current smv hierarchy means only the top% of men get the most sex without "buying" it(prostitutes/beta buxx).

TRP then gives methods to improve/gain advantages to be the top%. They also show women's hypergamous nature and the resulting notion of 80/20 and AFBB.

Naturally this is or may seem unfair to men who aren't top% and in any case of (sometimes systematic) unfairness the solution is to use the government to add laws to solve shit. This is where the removal of women's rights comes in from irritated men but is not advocated by TRP since it's

1) a fantasy pretty much 2) Less viable than simply self improvement.

Alot of this notion also comes from a sense of revenge as women(through laws like maternity leave, general cultural shift, affirmative action and generally painting themselves in an oppressed light, "regulated" the advantages men had, some men seek to do the same.

lovestocomment · 2022-07-23T05:34:18+00:00

At no point in mainstream red pill, you see men and women say that sexual market place is fair when women have less rights... I've been engaging with red pillers for years and never heard that. Also, why do people in this subreddit paint this false picture of what the sexual market place is? It's literally not just about sex or controlling women. It's about the dating and relationship dynamics between men and women, with the focus on considering what they both value in each other.

The point of the "Market place" is to highlight what men and women value in each other. Separate the needs from the wants for both sexes, while teaching each other about male and female nature. So they can make informed decisions on how to pick partners.

Here's an example, a woman might want man that is emotional. Not understanding how men process emotions and how she will eventually start to see that man. The Market place allows for her to understand the pros and cons from that trait she is looking for.

To be frank, I think all the other stuff is nonsense. I just wanted to address the sexual market place thing and that's it.

RedPill115 · 2022-07-23T05:56:25+00:00

Is this system working well for men or women?

There's a book called "The Paradox of Choice"

The book analyses the behavior of different types of people (in particular, maximizers and satisficers) facing the rich choice. This book demonstrates to us how the dramatic explosion in choice—from the mundane to the profound challenges of balancing career, family, and individual needs—has paradoxically become a problem instead of a solution and how our obsession with choice encourages us to seek that which makes us feel worse.

Seems like eventually all women with options choose to be "secondary" to a guy because it's easier, less risky, and more enjoyable. I'm not wasting time on the exaggerations in the post above, but take a look at feminist icon sheryl sandberg - like every "feminist" woman I've known she quit her facebook position to go be "secondary" to some uber-rish chad ceo guy once she had a chance to do it.

The whole recasting exaggerated historical stuff is because they don't want to admit they aren't making women happy with what they're pushing. Gotta create a fake history of horribleness in order to pretend that they're better off. "Women's place is in the cube farm".

Ou-tis · 2022-07-23T13:58:42+00:00

Yes,since men are the ones who build and mantain things. Try to live one day without men enforcing laws and rights.

SpecialSpnk · 2022-07-23T14:10:52+00:00

It’s not that I don’t advocate for sexual agency and choice, Quite the opposite. I have a major issue with modern feminism which is trying to essentially take away consequences for women. They want to behave like men and be treated as such when that is not how all this works.

AreOut · 2022-07-22T17:29:08+00:00

what rights is TRP exactly denying to women? It's about how to navigate the marketplace and use female nature to your own benefit (whatever it is), if nothing else then not get manipulated.

Notimecelduv · 2022-07-22T18:20:18+00:00

Did you genuinely think TRP is trying to pass laws that will infringe upon women's rights? I diagnose you with too much Internet.

2022-07-22T21:02:18+00:00

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WillyDonDilly69 · 2022-07-22T22:55:56+00:00

No TRP doesn't suggest make women have less rights, it suggests that women should the same rights as men. But what they want from women in terms of what they are attracted to is to have realistic expectations or to work themselves up for what they desire not just expect to put some make up and be done. If you just say women should not be judged on what they attracts them you should not judge men that expect porn level performance and body types in a relationship from their women

SteveSan82 · 2022-07-22T23:04:07+00:00

You seem to be mixing up TRP with feminism. TRP says nothing about forcing women to do anything.

jrihard8989 · 2022-07-23T01:10:27+00:00

No one deserves anything

Scribbles_ · 2022-07-23T02:26:11+00:00

Womens unchecked hypergamy is a disaster.

Men seem to have this ideal that we sacrifice the good of the individual for the betterment of society.

Women lack this. They are fully and wholly narcissistic and self absorbed and would never, ever expect themselves, nor ask any woman to sacrifice her self interests for the betterment of society.

Why do you think feminism is all about expanding the privileges of women with ZERO talk of the accompanying responsibilities that come with those rights?

Aluminiah · 2022-07-23T04:37:54+00:00

Cute analogy, way to paint the other side as monsters.

But a more accurate analogy is that there's a settlement of ogres, some of whom are talking about a lack of water. Some of those Ogres have said that building a dam would solve the water supply issues.

Your claim is that any ogre that talks about or acknowledges the lack of water is by implications advocating for the construction of the dam. Which isn't true.

beleidigtewurst · 2022-07-23T13:28:49+00:00

Oh, another day, another nonsense about TRP, color me surprised

The Red Pill is about realizing that men are, in fact AT THE BOTTOM of our social pyramide (en mass) and a handful of assholes like Trudau also being on top, doesn't change it for MAJORITY OF MEN. (the apex fallacy)

Nor does any of those handful guys on top give a flying fuck about other men.

And honestly I do not blame you.

If you'd stop making shit up about TPU it would suffice.

I think a lot (though not all) RPers find it too uncomfortable to admit that their idea of a fair society is one where women could not open bank account on their own

I could imagine you imagining that, but that is one sickening strawman. Oh, and with the vibes of the liberazi rewritten history too.

Title	No "issues" presented by TRP are solvable without also compromising the idea that women deserve equal rights to men.
Author	Scribbles_
Upvotes	210
Comments	889
Date	July 22, 2022 5:01 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/w5flv3/no_issues_presented_by_trp_are_solvable_without/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/no-issues-presented-by-trp-are-solvable-without.1125268 https://theredarchive.com/post/1125268

Comments

Oh, another day, another nonsense about TRP, color me surprised