“Don’t bother a woman at [location]. She’s just there to [do activity].”

Steakman1 · 2024-01-21T21:50:10+00:00

When there’s people that are going to say to not approach a woman at x location, and to not use apps, then you are left with 2 choices. You can either listen to those people and never approach a woman in your entire life, and be single forever. Or the other option is to ignore all that and just do what you have to do. Until women decide that they are going to be the ones to initiate/approach men, then they’re goinng to have to accept that they will sometimes get approached by men when they aren’t open to being approached.

purplish_possum · 2024-01-21T23:33:12+00:00

Translation = if you're NOT attractive don't bother women. However, if you're hot have at it.

YveisGrey · 2024-01-22T01:52:32+00:00

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with approaching women in a bar to be honest. Or a party or any type of social event I feel like people who say that are just being a little asinine, most women are not gonna care that much if a guy approaches them in a bar.

but I do kind of agree with the other public spaces because they’re not really inherently meant for socializing. The worst is when it’s a space of necessity where it’s not super easy to leave like in line at the grocery store or the DMV or on public transportation like these are places women have to go that aren’t social so it’s best not to bother them there.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-01-21T20:45:18+00:00

you cant pick up women unless you're willing to risk pushing or violating their boundaries. stop worrying about these shit tests and approach women

basedmama21 · 2024-01-21T21:36:22+00:00

Being bothered initially is fine as long as you go away promptly when we reject you. I had some fantastic dates and relationships from men who were brave enough to approach and shoot their shot. Of course, more were unlucky than successful but that’s just life.

Head-Language-2977 · 2024-01-22T01:08:26+00:00

Just because a woman rejects you doesn’t mean the approach was inappropriate. No matter how attractive a man is, he’ll be rejected more than he’ll get phone numbers.

I believe the only time women are heavy handed with their rejection is when the man is far below their league. If a man is realistic with his market value, and knows how to take a hint if she’s not interested, he should have nothing to worry about.

treadmarks · 2024-01-21T21:05:04+00:00

My man, I'm gonna blow your mind here: you are "bothered" by approaching women just as much or more than they are. Afterall, you're the one here posting a thread about it.

And the reason it bothers you and them has nothing to do with all these lame excuses and lies women are telling you.

If the women you wanted to approach found you attractive, you would have definite signals and you wouldn't feel bothered by it. And neither would they. You're inflating an issue that only exists because you want to approach women who do not find you attractive.

So here's my advice: stop bothering yourself and only think about approaching women if they're giving you some major flirty energy. Just don't expect them to approach you, that's way too much equality.

Secret_Sorbet_9674 · 2024-01-21T22:23:37+00:00

I agree the TikTok shaming bullshit is too much, but honestly it is weird to hassle strange women on the street or in a shop or whatever. Not to state the obvious, but they don't know you. >Historically speaking, the normal thing was to be introduced to a woman by a friend or acquaintance, ditto for friends. Obviously, there have always been some situations where men would approach random women but tbh it's always been considered a little predatory and a lot of women never liked it. Although I can understand why men think technology has made it "unnaturally" difficult.

Womens' aversion to it does seem a little bizarre given the popularity of dating apps, but women still feel like it's more threatening and that explains how they react.

Safinated · 2024-01-21T20:43:46+00:00

“Don’t bother people, unless you’re prepared to deal with the consequences”

How about that ?

CompetitiveFortune55 · 2024-01-22T07:06:48+00:00

The answer to this is that generalizations are wrong and unhelpful. If you are able to gauge the interest level of a woman off of a single human interaction (that isn't immediately "can I have your number") you can absolutely approach them. (One exception being if they are at work) Hello, how are you today? Is a perfectly fine thing to a stranger, but maybe not immediately addressing their appearance and your interest in dating them.

Women don't just walk around openly giving men their phone numbers and chatting up whoever approaches them, they actually walk around with a heightened sense of awareness and caution to ward off the predatory and creepy, and those who don't know how to take no for an answer.

learn2earn89 · 2024-01-21T21:24:46+00:00

Approach wherever you want, just doesn’t expect them to say yes to your advances.

thatguywhosadick · 2024-01-21T21:14:38+00:00

I’ve never heard that said about the bar, that’s one of the places where it’s still considered socially acceptable to approach and chat with strangers. Provided you’re not actively interrupting someone clearly engaging in another interaction, and you know to bail if the person isn’t reciprocating your interest.

EsotericRonin · 2024-01-22T09:58:37+00:00

Men getting it wrong again. Women don't give a fuck if you approach them if they're not the middle of doing something. Women give a fuck when you keep pressing their line after its clear they're NOT INTERESTED.

captainhowdy82 · 2024-01-22T15:28:19+00:00

You can ask, but if she isn’t receptive, then you need to immediately leave her alone. And don’t whine if she’s not into it. Just move on.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-01-21T22:43:44+00:00

Normally I say something like “well yes you actually can bother all of those women, you just have to be willing to accept rejection, the worst that can happen is someone gets annoyed which is not the end of the world.”

But I’m so tired of this same post stated different ways, so yeah, if you feel this way, don’t bother women. You’re not going to approach them anyway because you don’t want to risk rejection, which is human and understandable, but don’t try to make it the fault of some women on the internet who don’t control what other people choose to do. Men on here never care what women like or don’t like men doing until it comes to this topic.

richard_golbes · 2024-01-21T20:31:40+00:00

Why is this a problem, though? Most people don't want to be bothered by people selling something when they are out in public trying to get stuff done or socializing with their actual friends/family.

TermAggravating8043 · 2024-01-21T21:08:02+00:00

It’s really not that hard, you should really only approach strangers in social environments where it is appropriate to do so.

Weddings, parties, family events, work events, community events, church events, bars and clubs. Places where it’s appropriate to up to a stranger and say “hi, I’m so n so,”. Yeah if course most people are there with their own groups of friends but this is why you bring your groups of friends and try to merge them

motion_lotion · 2024-01-22T04:18:03+00:00

I don't fucking care. If a woman is interesting and looks open (not wearing headphones, working out on her own, looks annoyed, etc) sometimes I'll talk to her. Like at the gym, I'll go up and strike a convo. I can tell immediately if she isn't feeling it, will back off and make a note that she is not interested in me. But I've met plenty of women at gyms, grocery shopping, etc other places I'm "not supposed to approach" women. But the fact is, as guys, we're expected to make the move. If you followed all the bullshit people say on here and other sites, we'd only meet women on dating apps.

You should be able to tell if she wants to be left alone. And if you start talking and she clearly isn't interested, back off. Otherwise, it's not the end of the world and I've had decent success with this. If I listened to stupid rules like this from people online, I wouldn't have met 3-4 of the most amazing women in my life -- including the gal I'm dating now, along with an ex who I consider a great friend but we have no sexual chemistry. I think it comes down to don't be creepy. I'm well dressed, respectful, hair neat, 6'3 but non-threatening body language, and as soon as I get signs she wants to be left alone, I'm out. Always respect this. Know when to fuck off.

Mental-iron-847 · 2024-01-21T20:37:13+00:00

Be attractive, don't be unattractive.

Hard_Corsair · 2024-01-21T21:49:39+00:00

reading the room can be difficult

Dating isn't supposed to be easy.

Mayfloweronthewall · 2024-01-21T21:15:24+00:00

I’ve been cold approached once by a man aged 35-45 while I was taking a walk through a park in between uni classes. Very abruptly asked for my number. It was an insanely awkward experience, I refused instantly. If it had been a guy my age who had tried to make some decent small talk before asking I might have given him my Instagram. I would say it depends on different factors.

Edit: the men are downvoting me 🙄 angry I’m not jumping at the chance to be with somebody’s grandpa?

fakingandnotmakingit · 2024-01-21T22:36:26+00:00

There are no rules if you are socially calibrated

There are a thousand rules if you're socially awkward

MidoriEgg · 2024-01-21T20:35:20+00:00

People across the world (especially on the internet) come up with all sorts of rules about how people should live their life, from how hard you should work (You need the hustle everyday/If you put too much effort into your office job you’re a boot-licker) what you should eat (You need to eat vegan, no paleo, no fast intermittently, actually, any type of diet is fat phobic), how you should look (put effort in/too much makeup is anti femenist), what your values should be, what media you should consume, how you should consume said media.

While some things are obviously wrong (like lying/cheating/crimes) when it comes to how you want to live your life and interact with others, no matter what you do there will always be someone who thinks your wrong or ‘problematic’. Decide for yourself what you think is right. There is always a risk of negative reaction when approaching a stranger, but if the potential reward is worth to you and you aren’t going to get pissy if they turn you down go for it.

throughalfanoir · 2024-01-21T21:14:14+00:00

context, context, context

what is the location? what is the activity? how is her overall vibe? (as in, someone clearly busy with something might appreciate being approached a lot less than someone who us just waiting for time to pass) is she with other people? when you approach, does she react openly or visibly annoyed? etc etc. "don't bother women in public" is a blanket statement with zero nuance. but also, as others have already said, when you approach someone, be ready to deal with the consequences - there is a higher chance that they don't want anyone approaching than if you were looking at a dating app profile yes, but still

Literal_Jesus_ · 2024-01-23T00:00:35+00:00

A clear way to tell someone isn't trying to be bothered is to just look and see if they're open to interaction. Someone wearing headphones probably doesn't want to chat, someone scrolling on their phone probably doesn't want to chat, someone wearing sunglasses inside probably doesn't want to chat. If you were staring at someone and y'all made eye contact and they immediately looked away or made a face at you they don't want to chat. If you've thrown a compliment out and they're ignoring you they don't want to chat.

If you're going to disregard the social cues and approach anyway she might be rude. The same way you'd probably be rude if a Jehovah's witness made you take off your headphones to talk about Jesus. It's not that deep, if you approach dating the way people approach sales rejection is part of the game. If you're someone who is cold approaching and is absolutely married to the idea of meeting women this way, you're going to get more nos than yes's. As someone on the receiving end of a lot of cold approaches just be aware that it rarely if ever works (I've never gotten a date from a cold approach) I don't know of any friends who've gotten dates this way either. I know one man that has had success with cold approaches and that was just because he got really comfortable reading the room and hearing no.

Approach/do whatever but honestly unless you're in a bar/club/party/ a place where strangers normally socialize, you're fighting an uphill battle.

AceOfSpadesGymBro3 · 2024-01-22T00:04:08+00:00

And here my wife was telling a story about her girlfriend who desperately wanted to be approached and talk to at a bar and nobody went to talk to her all night.

SecondEldenLord · 2024-01-21T20:34:12+00:00

Exactly. Nowadays unless you are a hot dude, you cannot bother any woman ever. If you do, oh boy, expect to be accused of x,y and z.

gntlbastard · 2024-01-21T23:41:48+00:00

I say that men en masse give women what they want. Leave them alone. See one at the bar, take your drink and move away.

lilcrashmat · 2024-01-22T13:17:24+00:00

Yeah it says don't bother women not don't talk to them :)

Mundane_Gate_7391 · 2024-01-22T17:04:37+00:00

I actually did a 360 on this.

I was very 'men should shoot their shot and just walk away of they're rejected'.

Then I spent some time in the states and the balkans and holy shit.

I'm not the most attractive woman in the world but the amount of approaches and cat calling was absolutely insufferable. It made me not want to go to certain places, it was awkward, embarrassing and exhausting.

In the UK I get left alone in the street, but if I want to go on the pulI know I can do to a club/pub and just get approached in those spaces.

I'm glad it's frowned upon where I live, it makes going into town so much more enjoyable.

Sadsad0088 · 2024-01-22T04:57:45+00:00

These rules apply to the people who listen.

Original-Vanilla-222 · 2024-01-21T22:08:37+00:00

Don't bother women unless you're hot, it's not that complicated.

MiddleZealousideal89 · 2024-01-21T22:50:38+00:00

You can approach people wherever you want, just don't be surprised that not every person likes being approached.

itm4l2000 · 2024-01-22T08:17:08+00:00

Unless she is consistently in your line of sight, if she gradually gets closer to you over a period of time in a social setting, don't approach women.

Women want to be desired by men they find attractive and they make it easier for men who make them feel desired.to approach.

theReaders · 2024-01-21T21:23:51+00:00

Why is this an issue? If a woman wants to make herself available to be asked out she can. Why do you feel entitled to a chance?

indigo_pirate · 2024-01-21T23:16:35+00:00

As long as you’re not being aggressive or rude then I think you are within your rights to say hi to whatever woman you want to in public.

And you should look for indicators of interest before flirting more obviously or asking for a number/social/date.

If you follow those guides you are perfectly fine. Ignore online chatter and judgements

RacistsCallMeRacist · 2024-01-22T23:41:37+00:00

If they find you attractive, they'll make it easy to approach.If you're getting no such signals, well, that says something about you, doesn't it?

MattPayneWrestler · 2024-01-22T05:23:40+00:00

Yeah, so don’t bother women ever, and never date and stay forever alone. Meanwhile guys who don’t give a damn if they bother women will approach, meet women and have a fun life. Thats just how it is. Bad guy wins in real life. As long as its still legal for men to talk to women, just bother them, who gives a fk

PjeseQ · 2024-01-22T08:58:23+00:00

Don't bother unless you are 6 ft, 6 figures, 6pack. Isn't it obvious after all the social experiments out there? Mediocre is the new ugly thanks to OLD.

Hulkbuster0114 · 2024-01-21T23:20:35+00:00

Push their boundaries, it isn't illegal. If their boundary is to not get approached by anyone ANYWHERE, and they get mad at you for not reading their mind than fuck those people.

SteveSan82 · 2024-01-22T00:55:15+00:00

Bullshit. I approach women at all of these places and especially approach women who smile at me. Most of the time they are happy I approached even if they reject me. It makes them feel like they are beautiful.

Very few times has a woman ignored me or told me to go away.

Hefty-Lobster-5513 · 2024-01-22T01:40:26+00:00

We live in the most antisocial generation ever and a lot of the women on TikTok suffer from some form of social anxiety that’s undiagnosed, so they naturally chicken out and get anxious when people approach. Reality is that these women are a minority and most people don’t mind being approached by someone with good intentions.

McTitty3000 · 2024-01-22T00:41:07+00:00

That's why you don't listen to feminists in terms of approaching real women, all my serious relationships have been "cold approaching"

ArtifactFan65 · 2024-01-22T00:50:53+00:00

Just be Prince Charming and every woman will want you to approach her

Dr_Click_Click_Boom · 2024-01-22T03:55:19+00:00

Women will typically let you know, by their body language, whether or not they're open to the idea of being approached. A cursory Google or YouTube search of "signs she's intetested" should give you an indication of what that body language entails.

I'm at a bar right now typing a response on reddit but through my peripheral vision I can still scan the room. Women are no different. If she's out in public [doing x] she still had enough peripheral vision to observe her surroundings.

If she's focused like a laser beam on her crossword puzzle she's doing that on purpose to let folks know she doesn't want to be bothered. If she looks up from her crossword puzzle, makes eye contact with you, smiles then lowers her eyes back to her crossword puzzle she doesn't object to being approached.

This is neither rocket surgery nor brain science.

TheLonerCoder · 2024-01-22T04:20:36+00:00

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't lol. And it's even worse since most guys get absolutely nothing on dating apps. Approach IRL = risk being seen as a harassing creep. Approach online = you compete with hundreds of men.

honeycall · 2024-01-22T10:54:21+00:00

People are too sensitive these days

ICU8a8 · 2024-01-21T21:11:59+00:00

Each one should contain the following addendum “, unless you are hot.”

WYenginerdWY · 2024-01-22T05:41:44+00:00

Why is so hard for men to just leave us the fuck alone? If we want to date, we'll be on an app. Find us there and stop forcing stupid and pointless interactions with us because you're horny.

Nellylocheadbean · 2024-01-21T22:20:47+00:00

You’re overthinking it, if you see a woman who is attractive just approach her. That would be the masculine & confident thing to do. Everything in life is a risk.

Have you tried approaching women in the last 6 months to come to this conclusion or did you get this from online? It seems like the men that approach women the least have the most to complain about it.

DeepHouseDJ007 · 2024-01-22T02:25:46+00:00

I’ve met women in gyms, libraries, grocery stores, bars, clubs, hotels, and a bunch of other random places. I’ve had sex in the back of a college library at 11am, a random person’s garden outside a club at 4am, a hotel after meeting a woman at the cocktail lounge thirty minutes before, and other random encounters in different places.

I’ve approached some of those women myself and in some other instances they approached me. But whenever I approached them it was always because there were signals of interest, if attraction, or at the very least signals that indicated that the girl was open to being approached, having a conversation and getting a feel for who I am and what I’m about. When I get those signals from a woman I find attractive, it doesn’t matter where I am- I’m going to approach, even if I’m at the gym, the library or the grocery store.

And without those signals I’m leaving her alone, even if we’re at a party or a club and everyone is drunk. The language of seduction is mostly non verbal, and the signals are subtle: a look, a smile, the warm, playful energy that she directs towards you when you talk to her, the general vibe of the interaction, usually a combination of all those things.

And the problem is that I see a lot of men who don’t have the social skills and the experience to read those signals of interest and signals of lack of interest and they approach women and keep trying to flirt long after she gave signals of lack of interest. Or they assume that women being polite and making small talk is an indication of interest and they keep pressing when other guys can see that she’s not interested from across the room just by looking at her body language yet the guy talking to her is oblivious.

I see it happen ALL THE TIME, so I’m not surprised that women would rather not be approached at all by guys who aren’t good at flirting and reading the subtle signals that women use to express attraction, interest, lack of interest, boredom, etc..

Mahlah_Maldau · 2024-01-22T04:38:52+00:00

Yeah, I have bothered at all these places and have got numbers so it really only means that only attractive guys can do that.

xxTheMagicBulleT · 2024-01-22T05:59:05+00:00

Jup actually. Why the culture swap is going on for more women approaching. Cause for a lot of men it feels impossible to do anything with those rules in place so many just stop trying. And just forcing on their own thing. Adding with how common whipping out a camera and tick-tock shaming men also is becoming.

Just an action reaction. And for many men confessing love is nearly impossible. And when it's done it's done more not personally to limit the chance of being shamed. Like an online screenshot of text is way less bad than being filmed and shamed on Ticktock.

Many people want love but the rules that are placed make it very very hard to even know what is allowed and what is not soo people stop trying its to damn easy to get in trouble for doing something mundane. And a women getting a type of feeling. You have no control over. Then being a bad guy. Cause she got a feeling about it.

Makes bad guys also seem more and more cause the guy guys stopped trying. Cause they listened what women said and yelled what they want.

But bad boys/men dont really care about the rules as much.

And sadly those are the men that do crazy shit like slapping women when they get rejection or acting more violent.

All it really does is pull back the more good nature men.

Does not do much to stop the bed men. So you just feel more alone and feel like there more bad people around.

But choices are made. And every year it gets pushed even a bit more to the left and a bit more. And every interaction must have a few rules added to them.

Not weird why society seems more divided and more loneliness then ever. And people pulling back from social interactions. With the hard-core word policing And people feeling they cant be them self with out offended someone with just the most mundane things like glancing at someone as you walk past. What is all over tick tock. Men walking past a women and glancing and putting them on blast over the internet.

The more mundane the things you punish are the more likely people just not gonna make any effort to be social. Or say there feeling.

And that sadly makes a lot of good men and women feeling completely ignored.

But its almost the only social acceptable thing to do so its not weird people are doing it to not get in trouble

Muscletov · 2024-01-22T11:14:25+00:00

Dating apps and social media are slowly established as the only acceptable venues to contact women in romantic contexts.

It's not a crazy conspiracy, but a natural result of feminist fearmongering and younger generations' general preference for online interaction, especially since the COVID lockdowns.

And why would women have it any other way? They can now select from a much greater choice of men and ruthlessly filter out the undesirables from the safety of their home.

leNomadeNoir · 2024-01-22T12:07:41+00:00

Don't listen women. That all i can say

Organic_Pollution_97 · 2024-01-22T04:37:53+00:00

Most women enjoy being hit on, the only ones who complain about being hit on are ugly fat harpies who are jealous.

Hit on age appropriate women all you want. No one cares.

Even if some people did care, there's no other way to have some succes with women you actually want.

SeveralLiterature980 · 2024-01-22T08:30:39+00:00

Yeah it's like women are super risk averse and are out of their element when giving advice on how to do something bold.

Sabrepill · 2024-01-22T23:52:51+00:00

You can bother anyone, anywhere, any time, if you are willing to deal with the potential consequences. If the risk/reward is worth it to you then stop listening to virtue signaling muppets on Reddit and do whatever u want in life.

Date an 18 year old when you’re over 50 Approach a woman at the gym who has headphones on Fart in an elevator Drive over the speed limit

You can Live your life however the fuck you want within reason

AnalyzeData · 2024-01-22T01:55:51+00:00

Why care about weaponized consent? Women never want to be approached by ugly guys only chads. You can either be a misogynist who completely avoids women or you can work on your body at the gym and not care about consent. If she likes you she won't put up barriers.

AceOfSpadesGymBro3 · 2024-01-22T03:00:44+00:00

You are violating rules number 1 and number 2.

The rules are: 1. Who cares what's she's thinking

And

You are the most important person in the relationship

Authentic2017 · 2024-01-22T11:22:33+00:00

It’s not bothering anyone to talk to a stranger in public. To be in public without headphones is giving non verbal consent to being spoken to. Now to talk to her after she says to go away is a different story. Even if she freaks out most people aren’t retarded and so bystanders will just look at her as a nutcase as long as you keep your cool.

safestuff987 · 2024-01-22T21:33:00+00:00

Things to keep in mind about the women pushing these ideas:

They just want men they find undesirable to stop approaching them
They're probably not the kind of women you want to be approaching anyway
They do not speak for all women

When I was single, I just ignored these so-called rules and approached women anyway. As long as you keep time/place in mind, there's nothing inherently wrong or problematic with simply approaching a woman as long as you leave her alone if she says she's not interested. By time/place, I mean that approaching women in bars/clubs is a much better idea than approaching her when she's alone on an empty street at night.

horn1k · 2024-01-21T23:15:22+00:00

Rules you talking about are for fools, if you take it seriously then you doing women's job of filtering trash.

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2024-01-21T23:08:32+00:00

I agree with women here. I say the same thing about myself regarding women. Don’t hit on me or signal to me at a bar, or restaurant, or coffee shop, or airport, anywhere. I’m not out to be bothered.

2024-01-21T23:12:20+00:00

I couldn’t care less about approaching women.

Agile_Celebration492 · 2024-01-23T06:29:50+00:00

Yeah you right 🤷 but at the same time it's just one of those things that you gotta accept and play the hand youre dealt.

Women have been entitled and pampered creatures since the dawn of mankind and will continue to be as long as we are recognizably human. Yet the population continues to grow which should tell you it's definitely possible to deal with.

mybotisonfire · 2024-01-23T06:31:56+00:00

"Don't bother a woman at the abortion clinic...

silver_letter_opener · 2024-01-23T07:24:21+00:00

look, talking to people in general seems harder in comparison to how my mom described her youth, but even with that, i think there are ways to talk to people you don't know while being respectful.

bar indoors? sure. outside of a bar? seems very odd. library? sure. shopping? ehh, i mean, go for it if you want? talking to a woman who smiled at you depends entirely on the situation. on the street? depends on time of day/how hurried she seems, but you can try it.

look, nobody's going to report you to the police for trying to talk, so just do it. out of these options, bar/library seems best to me. way more casual and better conversation opportunities it seems. get turned down? oh well. i know rejection sucks, but that's life. not every woman will turn you down.

also, if you go in expecting rejection, i feel like that might not help either. anyways, just my thoughts.

jpla86 · 2024-01-23T14:21:01+00:00

I rarely acknowledge their existence. So I don't really talk or interact with women.

misterpho207 · 2024-01-23T19:03:49+00:00

This is one of those things where I say stop listening to strangers on reddit and live the life you want. I've done cold approaches, very awkwardly so. Sometimes I would get rejected. Other times I would get numbers. Nothing ever worked out, but no one also shunned me or rejected me harshly because I at least put in the effort to look presentable and don't try to get something out of them other than just a quick conversation+phone number. There is nothing wrong with wanting to talk to girls you find attractive, and if you want to just follow by every arbitrary rules to avoid offending anyone, you are just living life to please other people. that's a sad life

Title	“Don’t bother a woman at [location]. She’s just there to [do activity].”
Author	HardTimes4Vampires
Upvotes	148
Comments	490
Date	January 21, 2024 3:43 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/19c64r5/dont_bother_a_woman_at_location_shes_just_there/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/dont-bother-a-woman-at-location-shes-just-there-to.1243495 https://theredarchive.com/post/1243495

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