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I do agree with this but I think characterising it as some kind of active force is inaccurate. Imo feminism is outdated as a de facto theory of gender relations and doesn’t account for the role of women as social agents even as female oppression still exists. The way society works is more complex that the patriarchy now, and even though you can make qualifications to get feminism there, I think it’s unhelpful for the basis of gender discourse to be the idea of the patriarchy because it conditions us to primarily see women as the victims and also to pit women and men against each other. On top of that I also think gender and sex are social constructs so I don’t find it helpful to base gender discourse on a theory of gender that encourages us to see a gender binary with two ends that work against each other

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Because where I stand, women have to work harder to be taken seriously in an educational setting

women don’t even have basic bodily autonomy in many places around the world and the law is incompetent at prosecuting rape cases and is often complicit in victim blaming.

the medical establishment dismisses and invalidates women’s pain

First off, I'm talking about the US. I honestly don't care about social issues in Libya or w/e.

These issues really aren't unique to women. And as far as bodily autonomy is concerned, men don't have any reproductive rights at all. We can be raped, the female rapist gets pregnant and there is no legal consideration for a man's consent or lack thereof if the female rapist gets pregnant. It doesn't even matter if the male victim was a minor, we're still fully liable for child support or for the rapist to claim the male victim raped them. Which without very hard evidence proving innocence, the male is by default guilty until proven innocent.

Even without abortion, women have 4-5 other means of birth control. I have other issues with Roe being overturned, but the idea women have no bodily autonomy is frankly absurd.

As far as education is concerned, it's a female led sector/industry. Men can't even be K-12 teacher without heavy discrimination and the default assumption that they're predatory pdf-file rapist, despite the fact that women lead all statistics on violence against infants and children or the fact women SA boys (men in general) at rates nearly equal to men against women/girls.

Female medical discrimination gets cited so often, when the fact of the matter is that 1.) Doctors and nurses tend to be assholes 2.) women's health and life expectancy have always been significantly higher than men's 3.) men are only taken more seriously by some doctors because in general men go way less often and usually when it's something life threatening or require urgent/emergency care.

The only group who can legitimately cry about medical discrimination is pregnant black women because their mortality rates during child birth is literally on the level of like Nigeria (and guess which gender predominately occupies roles handling pregnancies and birth? Hint, not men...)

I could answer your other "questions" but you can easily look these things up online.

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Yeah babe BECAUSE OF MEN. Women give a shit about men’s mental health because women HAVE to give a shit about men’s mental health because no one else does. When you see women online talking shit about men’s mental health it’s because men come to the WOMEN in their life for that shit because men aren’t capable of supporting them.

The reason people give a shit about women’s mental health is that since forever ago society has invalidated women’s concerns and seen them as crazy. Of course people are more aware of women’s mental health – they’ve been institutionalising women for centuries. The downside of that is that women’s pain or physical problems or genuine emotions are invalidated and dismissed as a kind of hysteria because people assume we have something wrong with us mentally.

The reason men’s mental health is so poorly looked after is because 1) the entire foundations of mental illness were always associated with female hysteria and 2) men have created and passed on this concept of masculinity that views needing help or support as a form of emasculating weakness.

Everyone who’s mentally ill gets fucked over by the government. But mentally ill women can seek support in female friends – they talk about it, or cuddle each other, or cheer each other up, or share stories about therapy, or commiserate, etc. When a woman feels lonely, she doesn’t generally use a man as her lifeline to mental health support, because the other women in her life will support her. When a man feels lonely, they can’t reach out to other men in an emotionally meaningful way (because that isn’t socially normalised behaviour for men) so they see women as their solution and get angry or depressed when a woman doesn’t want to take all of that on. The issue with men’s mental health is that men don’t seem to care about taking active steps towards solving mental health problems for other men. They seem to just weaponise it against women in conversations as if it’s our fault and not something that can be fixed.

[–]UniqueOctopus053 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Another example: in job searches, women’s appearances and likability still factor heavily. People will hire men for their competence and even make excuses for them being grumpy or rude because if they’re good at what they do it doesn’t matter. If women aren’t likeable and pleasant and nice to be around, people rail against them for being rude and unpleasant. A woman who acts the same as a man in a professional setting might be labelled an ice queen or a bitch whereas the man is called professional. Women’s looks also factor! If a woman is too ugly or doesn’t dress well enough or doesn’t wear enough makeup, people will lean towards hiring a more attractive candidate. If a woman is TOO attractive or her boobs are too big or she wears too much makeup, she’s trashy or unprofessional.

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That’s not the actual point. The point is that it’s a huge circle.

Women face Misogyny (which include murder, rape, etc.) -> women become Misandrist -> men face Misandry (which includes the same thing but not treated as seriously due to being… A man, constantly blamed as the root of all problems, and are constantly downplayed and expected to not be vulnerable) -> men are treated and viewed as monsters so they either off themselves or just become the monster and be a misogynist -> Women face Misogyny -> the Cycle continues.

Hell just the fact you’re so quick to Blame everything on men and refuse to acknowledge even part of accountability on Women proves this point.

Men are ALWAYS the monsters. Men are ALWAYS the perpetrator. And women had ZERO involvement in the declining health in men. Women are never even 1/4th of the problem. Not even the simplest fact that they are proudly flaunting harmful Misogynistic stereotypes as being “sick of men’s bullshit.” and then acts surprised when it leads to a halt in women’s rights.

God forbid a man asks the strong and capable women for help on bettering themselves and are only told to fuck off because “they are not rehabs for broken men”

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Systematic misandry absolutely does exist.

It's the reason why boys and men are being undervalued in school and given worse grades despite similar performance by female teachers specifically. This screws with boys grades, GPA, and their potential future restricting their job options. This was considered misogyny when done to girls.
It's the reason why violence on boys and men is acceptable. We grow up in a "never hit a woman even in self defence". While I agree to an EXTENT, women have created societal ways of thinking that it means "Free abuse on men". Every social media platform that deals with relationships its the woman assaulting the man and the man dealing with it. This is considered misogyny when done to women.
It's the reason why all notions to include male victims of r4p3 were initially blocked by women's orginizations, with the most notable individuals being Mary Koss, an academic award winning scholar who pushed notions that men can not be victims of r4p3 due to their "societal privileges" (Because apparently if your gender takes up majority of all the world's billionaires than you can't be drugged and taken advantage of). This is misogyny if done to women by men.
It's the reason why men kill themselves everyday due to being forced into bone-weary labor hours to cater to an unfaithful spouse (unfaithfulness in the relationship causes emotional, mental, and psychological trauma) and a child that is not his.
It's the reason why the sexual abuse of men is deemed acceptable on all platforms.
It's the reason why men get locked up simply for defending themselves against female aggressors with society catering to woman as "a victim of abuse".
It's the reason why mandatory military conscription is only for men. "Well it's because men start wars" but your excuse is that patriarchy is male benefit at women's expense, so why isn't there a military conscription for women?
It's the reason why the very JUDICIAL system treats men sub-human in comparison to women as perpetrators.
It's the reason why men in public settings get bashed for their responses to women's actions.
The very system that takes men to jail for "abuse" when the woman was the aggressor was set up by feminists (Ellen Pence), who pushed narratives that men can NOT be victims of abuse and women can NEVER be perpetrators.

[–]Old-Philosopher5587-2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Acrobatic_Relief_3912 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And what ? Misogyny actually harms women and girls. It results in rape ,violence, sexual harassment, stalking, abuse, and death. Honor killings, the impact of reproductive health in women’s reproductive health. Misogyny keeps women below men in society. It’s a systemic and societal problem.

Women writing to end all men is not the same as men actively doing harm to women and girls. Women rejecting men is not misandry. Women not having sex with you is not misandry.

Misogyny has negative impacts on women all over the world. Religion puts women below men , killing women who have sex before marriage, women being made to cover up going out in public , not being allowed to speak in public, not allowed to drive, having to get a males permission to go get health services. Can’t get a passport , cant drive a train, child marriage, cannot and not allowed to speak in public at all. Can’t show there face in public. It must be covered. Misogyny is saying women had to sleep around to get a promotion. I don’t see men being forced at as early as 6 to get married or not allowed to continue getting an education.

[–]MembershipFriendly561 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Systematic misandry absolutely does exist.

It's the reason why boys and men are being undervalued in school and given worse grades despite similar performance by female teachers specifically. This screws with boys grades, GPA, and their potential future restricting their job options. This was considered misogyny when done to girls.
It's the reason why violence on boys and men is acceptable. We grow up in a "never hit a woman even in self defence". While I agree to an EXTENT, women have created societal ways of thinking that it means "Free abuse on men". Every social media platform that deals with relationships its the woman assaulting the man and the man dealing with it. This is considered misogyny when done to women.
It's the reason why all notions to include male victims of r4p3 were initially blocked by women's orginizations, with the most notable individuals being Mary Koss, an academic award winning scholar who pushed notions that men can not be victims of r4p3 due to their "societal privileges" (Because apparently if your gender takes up majority of all the world's billionaires than you can't be drugged and taken advantage of). This is misogyny if done to women by men.
It's the reason why men kill themselves everyday due to being forced into bone-weary labor hours to cater to an unfaithful spouse (unfaithfulness in the relationship causes emotional, mental, and psychological trauma) and a child that is not his.
It's the reason why the sexual abuse of men is deemed acceptable on all platforms.
It's the reason why men get locked up simply for defending themselves against female aggressors with society catering to woman as "a victim of abuse".
It's the reason why mandatory military conscription is only for men. "Well it's because men start wars" but your excuse is that patriarchy is male benefit at women's expense, so why isn't there a military conscription for women?
It's the reason why the very JUDICIAL system treats men sub-human in comparison to women as perpetrators.
It's the reason why men in public settings get bashed for their responses to women's actions.
The very system that takes men to jail for "abuse" when the woman was the aggressor was set up by feminists (Ellen Pence), who pushed narratives that men can NOT be victims of abuse and women can NEVER be perpetrators.

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Every one of your comments is pure and unadulterated misandry. Which is frankly weird, because you claim to be a man. Can only imagine how bad you must have been bullied, that you outdo women when it comes to hating on men. Or you are just a woman pretending to be a man on here. You wouldn't be the first vagina owner who uses that tactic.

Anthony Bourdain committed suicide only a few hours after photos of his cheating girlfriend kissing another man were publishing in the press. Naturally you are too ignorant to know this or too much of a hypocrite to acknowledge the obvious connection.

Yes, Bourdain was a frequent drug user and yes, he had a tendency for depression, but if those things were going to kill him, they would have done so a long time ago. Something clearly pushed him over the edge that day and it's obvious to see what that was. He was madly in love with her, she cheated, he found out, he ended it...

I'm still waiting for the first

No, you aren't. You already got that one. You just refuse to acknowledge it, you silly goose, which is something else all together.

You are going to do the same thing with every other example that I provide you with. So, don't expect me to indulge you. You are not here for a debate.

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The problem is that you’re thinking about this in terms of blame. I’m not bringing up male violence against women because I want to prove to you that men are bad or evil – if I were, then I would understand why you would want to respond by defending that. I’m talking about it because I want to fix it and women can’t do that without the help of men. Because boys and men NEED other men to SHOW them and MODEL healthy ways of existing as a man so that they can feel comfortable doing the same. When they get social validation from men for being shitty to women, there’s nothing women can do about it. When they repress their own emotions and lash out later because men haven’t made a space for them to feel safe doing so, women can’t do anything about it. I’m not saying men are bad. I’m asking men to help each other.

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The problem is that you’re thinking about this in terms of blame.

Really, now. I can't imagine why. Maybe...

The fact is there is still a large number of men killing women and this shouldn’t be a thing

oh yeah, it was something you wrote, that's why!

I’m not bringing up male violence against women because I want to prove to you that men are bad or evil

I suspect you thought I was one of the weak minded simps on here who would read what you previously wrote and believe this backpedal?

I’m talking about it because I want to fix it and women can’t do that without the help of men.

Men aren't going to help you more than they already do (and that's a hell of a lot, mind you) when women cheer violence against men. Men aren't going to help you more than they already do when women do not hold each other accountable for what they do to men. Boys can be raped by women and punished by courts with being compelled to pay child support if she gets pregnant. No feminist group is protesting that. No feminists even discuss that.

Because boys and men NEED other men to SHOW them and MODEL healthy ways of existing as a man so that they can feel comfortable doing the same.

We're DOING THAT... and evolution is showing this is a losing strategy. The apes are kicking our asses daily in the dating scene. If Dark Triad men were unsuccessful then men would abandon it immediately.

Men like HealthyGamerGG are out there literally pissing into the wind with a fat assed firehose about positive masculinity.

When they get social validation from men for being shitty to women

Nut uh, that's a half-truth right there. Those miscreants are getting social validation from women, too.

there’s nothing women can do about it.

There's plenty you can do about it. One, hold women accountable when they're being crazy as fuck. Two, hold women accountable when they go fuck criminals and manipulate men (see: "female dating strategy", etc). Those are two ways women can help and where women are 100% absent.

When they repress their own emotions and lash out later because men haven’t made a space for them to feel safe doing so, women can’t do anything about it.

Go visit askmen and find out how many men get burned by women for not repressing their emotions. Women gaslight men all the time about this by falsely accusing them of "over-sharing" when they're not.

Pfft, this is where women say "b-b-but nothing you wrote makes sense!" I ain't here to put up with that. You won't address what women do wrong here because accountability is something you only want from men, not your side. I'm out before the personal attacks start flying.

[–]Economy-Cry-53441 point 9 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, some people make fun of the disabled and actively make their lives harder—but more people save them from natural disasters? Do you realize how absurd that line of thought is? Thank you for pointing out two facts: yes, people do protect each other from certain dangers, and yes, men dominate first response roles, so often men are the ones doing the saving. But that does not erase the reality that there is a group in our society being systematically targeted for violence, and the evidence suggests that these attacks are not slowing down—in fact, they’re increasing.

The majority of what you describe as “protecting women” falls under jobs that people are paid to do. I am obviously appreciative of that—I have never once heard someone say, “Wow, I am so ungrateful for the firefighters, police officers, veterans, soldiers, and advocates who keep me alive.” We literally have holidays, awards, and parades for them. And they are not just protecting women; they are protecting people from harm.

We cannot justify women being systematically targeted for violence by saying, “Well, people save them from fires.” Why are you defending murderers? This line of thought makes no sense. Yes, there is a group of men in society who target women and commit horrendous acts against a very large proportion of them because of their gender. That does not mean it is every single man. If you do not kill, rape, abuse, harass, violate, or catcall women, you are not who we are talking about. That’s like asking children to bear the brunt of preventing kidnappings instead of holding the kidnappers accountable.

Think about this: if a child is kidnapped, we all get an alert on our phones to keep a lookout. Kidnappings happen at such a disproportionate rate that society implemented policies requiring everyone to participate in preventing it—even if it is not their own child. I understand it is frustrating to feel misrepresented by society and to feel painted as a villain without recognition for not being one. But do you genuinely need validation for simply not harming women?

Do you think it is productive to tell people who have been left with no aid after being violently violated, “Well, men are out there protecting women from fires”? It is far more rational to ensure our social spaces are not perpetuating dehumanizing language and behavior toward women. Your line of thinking has no rational basis besides hate. If it were anything else, you would not be trying to swerve away from the real issue.

It is nowhere near all men committing harm, but nearly all women have been affected. If you do not believe that, your eyes and ears are closed. Yes, women lie, just like men do—but do you seriously think every single woman, across age, geography, race, and time period, is fabricating vivid stories about being violated? That would require all of us to be clinically insane.

Yes, women can also commit rape and other violent acts, and some are pedophiles—but men are statistically more likely to be assaulted by other men than falsely accused by women. How can you not see that this is a problem that affects both genders, yet women experience it at far higher rates? If we want solutions, men must be part of them—not all men, but enough that it is taken seriously. Ignoring men’s responsibility while women bear the brunt of gendered violence is not only irrational, it makes real solutions impossible.

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The musuo are one of few female-ruled societies left. They lived in literal mud huts until outsiders came and renovated their shit.

Imagine a group of people stronger than another group physically, by an accident of birth and through no virtue of their own, subjugating and controlling another group of people, and then after subjugating said group of people for thousands of years, turning around and boasting about how the subjugated group needs them. Totally doesn't sound like an abusive partner screeching about how their abused partner needs them because the abusive partner has done everything in their power to control the abused partner.

If that isn't asinine enough, imagine them using a sample size of one while ignoring the many tribal societies ran by men that continued to live in some variation mud huts into modern times.

Until firearms the tribes relied on men to fight them off.

Most of the time with animals, particularly in most areas in the US, you don't need a gun to fight them off. Not to mention evidence of women hunting and defending camps as necessary in tribal societies, and the fact that more dangerous animals such as tigers would easily over power a man without tools.

Do you really want to run the numbers on the gender disparity regarding who digs who out of a wreckage?

Do I really need to explain to you that just because group Y does most of X, that doesn't mean Y is needed for X? Not to mention, the fact that group Y does most of X doesn't mean that group Y doesn't cause more problems than they solve.

[–]BrainMarshal1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That wasn't the argument. The argument was:

We will pretend that women are incapable of building.

When men aren't in control and women are, men aren't controlling women. In that environment women were left to their own devices. They got as far as mud huts.

If that isn't asinine enough, imagine them using a sample size of one while ignoring the many tribal societies ran by men that continued to live in some variation mud huts into modern times.

Fair enough. We also have societies run by men that built skycrapers.

Most of the time with animals, particularly in most areas in the US, you don't need a gun to fight them off. Not to mention evidence of women hunting and defending camps as necessary in tribal societies, and the fact that more dangerous animals such as tigers would easily over power a man without tools.

But men did the heavy lifting in getting rid of tigers, not women. That's why men are so much BIGGER than women. Men were genetically selected for being bigger over the course of over a million years. Women outsourced the danger work to men, that's why.

Do I really need to explain to you that just because group Y does most of X, that doesn't mean Y is needed for X?

And we get to the crux of your illogic. We've already established what you get with a society that doesn't have men - mud huts.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20202 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's why men are so much BIGGER than women

Actually, sexual dimorphism in humans has decreased over time and humans are really kind of weak comparatively to a lot of animals. And again the fact that men may have done something historically does not mean that women would have just fallen apart in their absence. Although I know misogynists love to imagine that.

For your conclusion/other statements, I'm just going to repeat this to you.

Imagine a group of people stronger than another group physically, by an accident of birth and through no virtue of their own, subjugating and controlling another group of people, and then after subjugating said group of people for thousands of years, turning around and boasting about how the subjugated group needs them. Totally doesn't sound like an abusive partner screeching about how their abused partner needs them because the abusive partner has done everything in their power to control the abused partner.

Then trying to point to literally one society where women may not have been being subjugated and crowing about how that somehow gives us any indication of what the world would have looked like at large if men hadn't been controlling shitheads for thousands of years is just asinine. Definitely wreaks of misogyny.

It's also entirely possible that, regardless, living in mud huts while free may have been preferable all along.

[–]BrainMarshal1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, sexual dimorphism in humans has decreased over time and humans are really kind of weak comparatively to a lot of animals. And again the fact that men may have done something historically does not mean that women would have just fallen apart in their absence. Although I know misogynists love to imagine that.

This is some good fantasy writing, I'll give you that. So many decades of misandrist women saying they don't need men. The day you get your fantasy of a world without men is the day you learn the hard way just how stupid that narrative was.

Then trying to point to literally one society where women may not have been being subjugated and crowing about how that somehow gives us any indication of what the world would have looked like at large if men hadn't been controlling shitheads for thousands of years is just asinine. Definitely reeks of misogyny.

Then nature is misogynistic because this world used to be ruled by matriarchies... and now there are almost none. Lemme me conclude this farce of a discussion with the fact that male-dominated societies are also doomed in favor of more egalitarian ones. America is the world's strongest nation because women joined men in factories -

oh wait, you added this howler:

It's also entirely possible that, regardless, living in mud huts while free may have been preferable all along.

Men weren't free in those societies. They were called matriarchies for a reason. The whole motivation behind your rant was exposed right here: you want to go back to that. Figures. You scream misogyny when all you're doing is dog whistling for a return to misandry. I'm outta here, fuck this.

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Yes, violence is a problem.

Most of the victims of violence are men. Dismissing men as solely being perpetrator (when they're also mostly victims) is just fucked up.

Because men have to be taught to deal with things without resorting to violence!!!

Yeah I'm pretty sure most violence is predicted by socioeconomic factors. And you can't teach men to "deal with things without resorting to violence" because men are socialised to not share their thoughts and feelings and to not deal with their issues since early childhood.

And by the way men SHOULD have some kind of brotherhood butterfly feeling for other men.

Yeah, its not possible with the current way society deals with men. If men even try to group up to discuss issues they get villainized and demonised by women and men who want to please and placate women join in. It's just not likely to ever happen with gender dynamics being the way they are.

Maybe then yall would be less lonely instead of expecting women to pick up the slack

Nobody's expecting women to pick up the slack. You repeating dishonest shit doesn't make it true.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1) every demographic of people is a victim of violence. I’m not saying that men can’t be victims of violence. But we’re talking here about gendered violence. Men perpetrating violence against women is relevant. So is the reverse. General violence that men fall victim to is irrelevant. It would be idiotic to say that men can never be victims of violence. You’re missing the point when you use that as an objection because the point is about how violence involving men and women is gendered in a way that the majority of the time, men are the perpetrators. Gendered and intimate and sexual violence is not necessarily the same problem as violence in general. Hence the stuff about socioeconomic background.

2) you’re literally coming so close that it feels like you’re missing my point on purpose. ‘Men are socialised to not share their thoughts and feelings and to not deal with their issues since early childhood’ YES babe that’s what I’m saying 😭😭. That’s my whole point. You seem to be using it as some kind of trump card when I’m telling you that’s literally the issue. SO what can we do to fix it? I’m not saying you created the issue but at the end of the day it is MEN who are most able to help other men realise that it’s ok to be vulnerable. If you grow up with a dad that is comfortable being emotional! Or who tells you it’s ok to cry! Or if you see men out in the world expressing emotion and dealing with their issues! If we take body image as a comparable issue for women, I find midsize fashion creators incredibly healing to watch because they helped me realise it was ok to be comfortable and confident and attractive in my own body. I want men to have that too! But it requires you guys to take that step so that the next generation can see it and not internalise the same trauma you did.

3) women are not the ones judging men for expressing emotion. The women you are talking about who don’t like men to cry or whatever have internalised the traditional gender roles bullshit they’ve grown up with and are now (unfairly) pushing it back on you. Of course that’s bad. But the problem is not rooted in the female response. The problem is the way that men have created masculinity as something that doesn’t show weakness or express emotion. I’m not saying those women shouldn’t bear some accountability. But the root of the judgement comes from men and THAT is the problem – because if men were really ok with showing emotion it wouldn’t matter at all what women thought about it (as proven by literally every other issue in history).

4) I can name you at least six women in my life who have been made responsible for a man’s emotional wellbeing. And men will blame rising suicide rates and male loneliness on women – when really men should be meaningfully supporting each other’s emotional wellbeing like women do. You guys don’t cuddle each other or cry with each other or have long talks about your feelings. You just slap each other on the back and say something like ‘real shit’. Even my closest guy friend can’t talk about his issues as anything more than a joke – and I get it because I’m like that too. But the difference is I have friends that I can receive real love and affection and emotional support from if I really need it. And if he ever needed or wanted my support, I would be happy to help him! But it’s hard to be the only one supporting someone. You can’t pin everything on one person. Right now, men don’t have support networks. But guess who can change that?? Men! By showing up for each other and taking steps towards socially normalising that behaviour by instituting it gradually.

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Romantic involvement, the quality of the relationship or the positive sexually related experiences within a romantic relationship, all seem to promote lower rates of alienation and isolation, a better self-image, better future expectations, higher levels of self-esteem, and a greater level of commitment in later relationships (Ciairano et al., 2006; Viejo et al., 2015; Hensel et al., 2016).

Modeling analysis showed adolescent romantic relationships as a predictor of psychological well-being, having a positive link with positive interpersonal relationships and with life development (Gomez-Lopez et al., 2019)

Single individuals reported lower well-being than partnered individuals (Adamczyk et al., 2015)

Individuals in committed relationships experienced fewer mental health problems(Braithwaite et al., 2010)

Being in a dating relationship was associated with less alienation, more positive views of the self, and higher general expectations for success. Among sexually active youth, daters had lower levels of depression than non-daters (Ciairano et al., 2006)

Romantic involvement was associated to a positive quality of life, positive feelings of happiness, and reducing negative states such as anger and sadness (Gala & Kapadia, 2013)

Having a romantic relationship was associated significantly with well-being (Reifman & Dunkel-Schetter, 1990).

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[–]Enzi421 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm obviously not the person you replied to, but I have had similar experiences and can give some context.

Personally speaking, every feminist I have ever spoken to (some male but most female) have had at least some negative anti male beliefs. They can be the nicest and seemingly most reasonable people on the surface, but speak to them long enough and you'll see the inherent negativity towards male humans rear its ugly head.

And it isn't even as if they're purposely hiding it and waiting to "strike"; it's more akin to getting to know a homophobe or racist or anti-semite or some other type if bigot. They may seem perfectly fine upon early encounters but as time goes on, their nastier opinions start to make themselves known.

I believe the person you were talking to was recounting similar experiences. I have spoken with feminist identifying women who, although they did not hate men and even wanted good things for us, held the misandrist belief that we are an oppressor class who must be resisted and endlessly watched. They just practiced a "hate the sin not the sinner" type of mindset.

It was years ago now, but I actually had an oddly pleasant conversation on this sub with a feminist who actually took interest in men's issues and solving them...but could not wrap her head around why insulting and blaming literal children for women's issues was morally wrong because "there isn't any structural oppression or damage behind it".

It has all fed into my ironclad belief that there is no such thing as a "good" feminist from a male-centric perspective; every last one of them is an enemy of men and boys, even their own friends, family and children.

But that's a whole other topic, and I just wanted to give some perspective as to what the other person might have meant.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I understand why you would say this. But what I think you don’t understand is that when women say they hate men, they’re really referring to the constructs of masculinity and not actual individual men (even if various individual men have inspired this hatred).

A good analogy is a black person from 30 years ago who may have said they hate white people. Say they’ve grown up witnessing police brutality and getting slurs thrown at them by white people when they walk down the street. Is it any surprise that they hate white people? They might still have white friends – but they see them as an exception to the rule. They still love them, but for whatever reasons, their white friends have acted in such a way that proves to them they differ from ‘white people’ as a broader idea that represents the discrimination and oppression they have faced.

This is how women view men. We have to assume any man could hurt us because if we let our guard down too early we might be in danger. If we go on dates, we prepare for the possibility that we are meeting a dodgy guy who wants to rape and murder us because that’s how we stay safe! And we have grown up having that be present in every aspect of our lives. I understand it is frustrating to feel punished for the mistakes of others or feel like people think that what you are is bad. And I agree that this attitude isn’t sustainable and we should try to move past it! But I also think it’s understandable. It isn’t that women think they are superior. It’s that they hate what men represent to them. And the other side of that attitude is that there is work to be done by men to stop the things that inspire that hatred – when the constructs of masculinity (literally the idea of what a man is) cause men to repress their feelings and lash out at women, it is hardly surprising that women hate what men represent.

Another example if the one above wasn’t helpful: A poor person may hate rich people. Does any particular individual deserve to feel hostility because of their socioeconomic status? Obviously not. But the poor person’s hatred is also kind of valid – because it isn’t that they hate that person specifically, but that they hate what they represent. They might be perfectly good friends but whenever they start to talk about money the vibe gets weird. I have friends like this! But their feelings in themselves are justified so as long as we can show up for each other as friends and be comfortable with each other then I don’t mind too much.

[–]Enzi421 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So, two things. One, I'm going to use this comment to reply to both since you made two responses. Two, there isn't really a nice way to phrase what I'm going to say, so I will just settle with polite but cold.

While I understand what you've said here, nothing you wrote really disproves the point I made. If anything you have actually reinforced my outlook that there are no good feminists and every last one of you are the opposition, to be resisted at every corner.

All the points you made in the first comment are things I have heard in one form or another and they are not any more compelling than any of the other times I've heard it. For all the veneer of reasonableness, it still reeks of blaming men for women's animosity and demanding that we do the work in order to quell the hatred because we are "the transgressors".

Speaking of which...

This is a genuine question. Not rhetorical or even sarcastic. You don't have to answer it, but I'm truly curious:

Why do so many of you think that if you "sit down and explain" women's animosity towards men (or "men as a concept") that we will just nod along and accept that negativity and humble ourselves, just taking it on the chin?

I cannot tell you the literal hundreds of times I've had women (and men who have swallowed the Kool-aid and turned on their own gender) try to rationalize anti male beliefs with the idea that if we really considered it, we'd understand and accept it.

To me, that is the height of arrogance and delusion. I literally cannot imagine expecting someone to accept my dislike of their people because "I have a good enough reason".

So my question is, do you actually think that explaining misandry will push men to accept animosity towards us?

I can personally say that I have zero empathy or compassion for anyone who hates the group I am part of, regardless of their reasoning or sob story. You gave an example of a black person experiencing racism above? Well, let me give one of my own.

I happen to be black and I can tell you that I do not care what horrific experiences someone may have had with people of my race. I feel no qualms about hating them if they are racist towards me and my group. Blanket hatred of people bases upon their immutable characteristics should be met with harsh condemnation not empathy or compassion, and the social punishment should be even more severe if the bigot tries to use sympathy and compassion to get around it.

Finally onto the second comment:

I find it disturbing (to put it lightly) that your response tk a vague anecdote about insulting and casting blame on small boys was to try to rationalize it and try to shift the focus to how girls suffer...and then to further entrench it by talking about grown female teachers being terrorized by children who will grow to be evil patriarchal males if not nipped in the bud.

That whole thing just reinforced a belief I have that. I hadn't even mentioned--that unlike the most of manosphere feminists have zero problems targeting kids because they see them as just one more "division" of "the oppressor".

So once again I have zero faith in feminist goodwill. I think the best thing men can do is "circle the wagons" and focus only on our own concerns and let you people focus on yours, while ensuring we keep a reasonable degree of distance (whether literal or figurative depends on the situation) from anyone with feminist ideals.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m going to answer the second part of your response first because I think it’s more important. It’s not that I see young boys as evil or as part of the division! It’s that young boys become young men and then adult men. And if you don’t show children how to be healthy in childhood then they grow into unhealthy adults. If you don’t teach children how to deal with and combat a society that is going to make them into unhealthy adults, you are doing everyone a disservice.

It’s not that I see young boys as rapists in progress. It’s that I want them to grow into healthy, emotionally secure men. When I hear about a man committing an act of violence because he was radicalised by incel forums, that’s just as much of a tragedy for the person he could have been as it is for the person he harmed. That’s him consigning himself to a life of hatred and misery and imprisonment if he’s prosecuted. I don’t think young boys are fledgling monsters. I have two younger male cousins I love very much and their father is NOT a good role model. It’s not that I’m thinking about all the women they’ll harm (although I’m aware that my dad will have to talk to them about how to treat women and people in general given the example their parents have set and the stuff they could access online). It’s that I want to help them be safe and happy and well-adjusted. I want their parents to learn how to help the older one with his autism diagnosis. I want the younger one to have a safe space where he isn’t suppressing himself for the sake of everyone else’s needs.

What upset me so much about that teacher and her students wasn’t that the teacher was being harassed. It was the corruption of what should be childish innocence to the extent that 10 year old boys are exhibiting sexually aggressive behaviour. It’s the same thing I feel when I see a 10 year old girl call herself fat because I’m horrified that the horrors of the world are infiltrating the mind of someone so young.

To address the first point: it’s not that women think you will agree with their feelings about men. It’s that they are trying to explain it to you in order to get you to feel some kind of empathy or compassion. Frankly, the thing I hate the most is when people refuse to have empathy or compassion for people. Because by saying what you’ve said you’re essentially saying that once someone says something you deem offensive, they lose all humanity.

More importantly, it kind of ruins your point. How can you be angry that women hate men when you’ve just admitted that you have no empathy or compassion for anyone who hates the group you are part of? I can’t even tell you how much misogynistic abuse I’ve experienced in my life. If I didn’t have empathy and compassion and a commitment to fostering understanding, I would HATE men. I WOULD be one of those people you’re so disgusted by that can’t help but view all men as potential predators. You can’t say that you have no compassion or empathy for the suffering of women and then be angry that the women you’ve met have no compassion for the suffering of men. How does any of that help anyone?

I’m here having a dialogue with you about the animosity you feel towards women and not taking it personally because I understand that it comes from a personal history that I am not privy to AND because I want to understand what men think about women and why they think it so that I can have a greater insight into what is needed to help everyone move forwards together. Why can you not afford someone else the same privilege? Why are you so unable to look beyond yourself that when women discuss their experiences you take any signs of lingering resentment as personal and become unable to see them as human beings deserving of empathy and understanding? You’re entitled to your opinions, but don’t delude yourself that you’re somehow in the right, because your attitude isn’t helping anyone.

[–]Enzi421 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I had to think pretty hard before responding, since I feel like you raised some good points and clarified some things, even if I still don't agree.

First off, addressing the children aspect.

I am sorry for accusing you of condoning that kind of thinking now that you've clarified. I have been exposed to many examples of feminist-leaning women who blatantly see male children as miniature "patriarchs in waiting" and have targeted them with anything from open mistreatment and manipulation or have treated them well, but made it clear that they are doing it solely for the sake of the women they will encounter, not for the boys themselves.

Unfortunately, some of those have been the relatives of these children and there was one incident where I debated with a mother who openly--and yet guiltily which somehow made it more horrific to me--admitted to some pretty grotesque emotional manipulation of her son to keep him away from caring about men's issues, due to her thinking of it as her responsibility to other women.

All that is to say that I admit I have a bit of a hair-trigger reaction where that is concerned, and I saw you as rationalizing that kind of behavior. So again, I apologize. It is good that you are trying to make the lives of your cousins a bit easier where this is concerned, and it would be an understatement to say that I admire that.

[–]Enzi421 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Where I think we still disagree--and will likely continue to do so--is the part about hatred, empathy and "hearing out" people with animosity towards your group.

I don't like this particular saying because I think it's obnoxious, but I do think this is a genuine case of there are two types of people in the world. It isn't so much that we don't understand each other as much as we have a vastly different foundation of morality and how to treat people.

I do not see empathy and compassion as inherent rights, instead they are privileges. They are default certainly, but they are by no means absolute, and if someone does something to me or my loved ones or my group, they will lose it in an instant.

I will not tolerate any kind of blanket hatred towards me or those like me based on our immutable characteristics. I do not care about the quality of the sob story behind it or how "understandable" it is. I can agree that someone who was harmed by black men growing up may fear and even despise them in adulthood.

I understand it but I'm not going to just shrug and accept that their hatred has a "valid" source and move on. I will feel nothing but disgust towards them; their trauma and hardships trigger zero compassion or sympathetic response, because they are an enemy of me and those like me.

I truly have turned this over again and again in my mind as I considered how to break this down to you until I realized it's just a matter of having vastly different outlooks on life. I do not accept people who hate me or those like me. It's just as simple as that.

The best I can do is give an analogy-- Imagine a 1950s door-to-door salesman coming to your house and offering to sell you something. You don't want it, the salesman is creepy/annoying and you're trying to relax.

You go to close the door, but the salesman slides his foot into the doorframe so that you cannot shut it without crushing his foot, and you wouldn't just do something like that. The salesman then uses that hesitation to keep talking and slowly wears you down. Eventually in your predicament as a captive audience, you start to see the value in his product and before you know it, he has sold you a useless piece of junk.

That is how I see this idea of sitting down and "having empathy" for those who hate/resent my group. I have seen many men slowly but steadily turn into self-hating shells through internalizing misandrist logic--or rather I've had men like this tell me how they "stopped and listened to these women who hate men and heard their reasons" and that resulted in the pitiful state they wound up in.

Probably petty, but I did want to clarify something. I do not feel animosity towards "women". I feel deep hatred and disdain towards anyone who holds a male oppressor/female oppressed worldview. I actually despise men with these viewpoints more than female adherents, since I can understand a woman fighting for her gender's interests while a man joining in is a traitor to his own kind, and a living manifestation of one of the biggest issues men face.

What I do think is that men and women are akin to two separate countries who each want what to prosper and thrive, regardless of what they have to do to the other in order to bring about that prosperity. My solution to it (well, the very simplified version) is for men to restrict our charity and altruistic efforts to the women in our lives but to expend the majority of it to our gender as a whole, the way women have networked and expended effort to unite and aid their own gender across the world.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVEAnti-feminist egalitarian man [score hidden] 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jambi1913Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVEAnti-feminist egalitarian man [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Please point me to mainstream feminist sources that “rabidly advocate” that women are superior to men?

Every single source that points out how men are murderers, rapists, and violent, is inherently saying that in contrast women are superior to men since women are not murderers, rapists, and violent.

Note that these websites aren't saying that those individual specific men are terrible, but that men in general are terrible because men in general are murderers, rapists, and violent, nevermind the fact that the overwhelming majority of men are not murderers, rapists, or violent.

If someone slaps you, of course you don’t need to stand there and take it. Defending yourself is distinct from retaliation. You’re making a false equivalence.

Cool, so how should men defend themselves from feminism constantly attacking, denigrating, dehumanizing, and invalidating men?

[–]Jambi1913Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]UpstairsAd1235Purple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jambi19133 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze26M altruistic individualist [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Please point me to mainstream feminist sources that “rabidly advocate” that women are superior to men?

They do say that implicitly without directly phrasing it like that.

Feminists endlessly invent concepts/theories with no scientific basis to make it seem like women are superior to men. Just a list of examples:

× Men created this system (with the implication the system is bad, and the scientific impossibility of identifying one single point in time when a whole society was created) which implies men are more incompetent and badly intentioned than women

× If women were in power, we wouldn't have so much war and exploitation (even though the little data we have points to the opposite, and there is not enough data anyway to make any conclusion) suggesting women are morally superior.

× Violence is just patriarchal violence, suggesting men invented violence to dominate others which implies again that women are morally superior to men. Again also does not align with scientific findings

× Men are emotionally illiterate and women do most of the emotional labour, but also men are lazy and don't communicate openly because they don't want to do the work. Again extremely dubious scientifically and assumes men are more incompetent and immoral than women, while also assuming the way women see emotions is more correct.

× Toxic masculinity is something that men mostly cause to themselves, which again suggests we men are more incompetent and stupid than women.

[–]UniqueOctopus052 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

About the last point specifically: toxic masculinity IS something that men create for themselves. Masculinity in general is something men create for themselves. The idea that this makes men inferior to women is bizarre and I have no idea where you got that from. Because the fact of the matter is that a lot of female beauty standards are perpetuated and exaggerated by women! The fixation of beauty may have originated with men, but the extent to which women are insecure about the shape of their nose or jaw or eyebrows or waist has been spearheaded by women!

No one is saying men are inferior to women. What we are saying is that men should be aware of and question their constructs of masculinity the same way that women question the constructs of femininity. And that men should be actively working to prevent young boys from becoming violent or repressed or hateful or suicidal the same way that women work to prevent young girls from becoming anorexic or depressed or anything else.

[–]Maffioze1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

About the last point specifically: toxic masculinity IS something that men create for themselves. Masculinity in general is something men create for themselves.

How can you prove that they create it for themselves? Why should we believe only men create "masculinity" when women have disproportionate power over the socialisation of children? How can you argue that any individual creates it for themselves when their are countless pressures in the environment to push you into being certain way?

The idea that this makes men inferior to women is bizarre and I have no idea where you got that from. Because the fact of the matter is that a lot of female beauty standards are perpetuated and exaggerated by women!

Yeah but in that case it's called "internalised misogyny" which has a connotation of being a victim of your environment while toxic masculinity has a connotation of being victim of your own actions/beliefs. This discrepancy is why I think it suggests men are inferior.

And that men should be actively working to prevent young boys from becoming violent or repressed or hateful or suicidal the same way that women work to prevent young girls from becoming anorexic or depressed or anything else.

I mean even this says something, men have to prevent other men from harming others, while women just have to prevent other women from harming themselves.

Someone doing the questioning of constructs is given far more empathy when a woman is doing it than when a men is doing it and this is a problem.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I appreciate how well thought-out your response is and that you meaningfully engaged with what I said.

Men create masculinity for themselves because women can’t teach men what it means to be a man. Women tend to be the primary and sometimes sole emotional caregivers, which is a PROBLEM! Because yes, women can influence their children. But there are things and experiences they can’t understand or speak to – which could be complex or incredibly simple. Something as trivial as how to dress cool as a guy. Or something deeper like what sexual thoughts/experiences/actions are normal. And they will instinctively look to other men for this – because at a certain age they will start looking for role models and if their fathers aren’t emotionally involved they will look elsewhere.

I see my cousins do this to my dad and uncle and even professional football players because their dad is a piece of shit. The older one spouts conservative bullshit from his (male) economics teacher because he thinks he’s cool – and only my dad can convince him that it is bullshit (because he looks up to him as a man). One time he went on this whole streak of refusing to take his medication because someone had told him ashwagandha was better – he wouldn’t listen to his mum or my grandma, only my uncle! This isn’t always true, but in many cases it is, especially if they have already watched online shit talking about the differences between men and women (which nowadays everyone has because it’s everywhere).

No individual creates masculinity for themselves! Just like no woman creates (to use the previous example) toxic body standards. It is forced on and ingrained in people when they are too young to question it. But at a certain age, you become responsible for your actions and it becomes your responsibility to question the ideas you have unknowingly bought into. When a woman starts pushing toxic behaviours on young girls and inspires them to develop eating disorders, I want her to stop. I hope she recovers and sees the light, but it doesn’t excuse what she’s doing and I don’t believe she should be allows a platform. When a man harasses a woman because he’s insecure about his sexual experience, I want him to stop. I hope he heals, but I want him to stop. And if he commits a serious crime, I want him to be prosecuted for it because he has proven he is a danger to society.

I actually think you do kind of have a point about the terms ‘toxic masculinity’ and ‘internalised misogyny’. I think the term ‘internalised misogyny’ is somewhat justified because this behaviour tends to be rooted in a desire for male validation and male social standards, but I agree that sometimes a more active term might be used. I also think that a lot of ‘toxic masculinity’ is at least partially reducible to men having internalised the unrealistic standards/expectations/behaviours pushed on them within the cultural concept of masculinity.

I don’t think this suggests men are inferior. I think it’s because both terms have been invented by women, because women and queer people do most of the critical thinking at a high level about how gender functions in our society. ‘Internalised misogyny’ is more concerned with the inward state because when coming up with that term women are looking from the inside out. Whereas ‘toxic masculinity’ came from the way that people use stuff like ‘boys will be boys’ as an excuse for violence and sexual assault so it makes sense that it is a less sympathetic term. I agree that we should be more specific about terminology – but I also think that all this goes to show is that it’s important for men to be more actively involved in evaluating and critiquing the social construction of masculinity themselves. It’s not that feminists hate men or think they’re inferior – it’s that men aren’t participating (or haven’t historically participated) in the same kind of scholarly cultural critique of gender constructs.

And I think that women are mostly helping women stop harming themselves because men are more likely to lash out and hurt others (because they aren’t taught to process their emotions). And by the way, a lot of feminist discourse 10 years ago WAS about getting women to stop hurting others – getting women to stop bullying or being ‘mean girls’, etc. And then we realised it was more productive to help these girls see what was wrong in themselves than revile them for being ‘bad’. I would love for men to do the same thing. Obviously, rape is hard to come back from. But instead of acting like you don’t claim them and you’re not like them (which all the men I know do – they call them crazy or evil and insist that could never be them), think about WHY they were led down that route and what you can change about the way masculinity is passed down as men to fix and prevent that!

I think a lot of men think women think they’re inferior especially because women are always preaching to men about gender stuff and masculinity. It has nothing to do with inferiority. The fact of the matter is, women have been oppressed since the beginning of time and as a result, women have been thinking about how gender functions in society for a LOT longer than men have. It’s not that men are inferior. It’s just that there isn’t much of a precedent for men to evaluate masculinity on such a large scale and it’s hard to take that step when everyone around you thinks it’s stupid. I don’t think men are inferior! I’ve just been having variations on this conversation since I was 14 and so have most of the women I know, so it’s hard not to be jaded and cynical about it sometimes.

[–]Maffioze1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I appreciate how well thought-out your response is and that you meaningfully engaged with what I said.

Likewise, thank you for being civil and good faith.

But there are things and experiences they can’t understand or speak to – which could be complex or incredibly simple.

If I understand it correctly you're making the argument that women can't fully understand what is like to be male, so therefore they can't create "masculinity". I think this argument is partly valid, but it only proves that men play a role in creating masculinity, it doesn't prove they play the sole/main role nor that women play no role in it.

And in my personal opinion, the people who talk about masculinity the most have a flawed understanding of who actually socializes that in us. Women have a far bigger role to play in that than is usually given credit for, both when it comes to our mothers and our girlfriends/wives.

This misunderstanding makes sense to me, though. When you're from the outside looking in and observing men, they seem far more harsh towards each other than women are to them. But I think women lack the experience to understand the context in how men express love towards each other. It's extremely normal in male friend groups to make harsh jokes about each other, even about very serious things, for example someone being unemployed. The difference is that it is understood that this meant as a joke (sometimes to push someone to take action), with no influence on how your friend feels about your friendship. Men make friendships less easily than women, but once you're friends you have a relationship where the risk of judgement is fairly limited unless you start to do seriously cruel things. In contrast, when you talk to women as a man, they will usually not phrase the things they say in such harsh ways, but there will be a more serious level of judgement behind their words and body language when you don't reach what they think a man should be. And what they think a man should be is usually a man who overestimates his own agency, who doesn't complain, and who takes responsibility even when they are victims of something.

I think the term ‘internalised misogyny’ is somewhat justified because this behaviour tends to be rooted in a desire for male validation and male social standards, but I agree that sometimes a more active term might be used. I also think that a lot of ‘toxic masculinity’ is at least partially reducible to men having internalised the unrealistic standards/expectations/behaviours pushed on them within the cultural concept of masculinity.

What makes you think that men's behaviour isn't also partly rooted in female validation and female social standards?

I think the problem for me is that it is not just internalised. Because this "pushing" happens continuously and just deciding that you don't like it doesn't stop it from happening.

think it’s because both terms have been invented by women, because women and queer people do most of the critical thinking at a high level about how gender functions in our society.

I'm 100% in agreement with this. But I think you should think further about why that is. As a man who works as a social scientist, it's not just because we don't care, don't understand or are too lazy. It's because our voices are not welcome there in a myriad of ways. I don't feel safe at all to speak on these things publically because it can be a risk to my career. And this is not just me being selfish orcowardly, like many men, other people, including women, depend on my career for their wellbeing.

It’s not that feminists hate men or think they’re inferior – it’s that men aren’t participating (or haven’t historically participated) in the same kind of scholarly cultural critique of gender constructs.

I don't think they hate men (most don't at least) but I don't think what you said shows they don't see them as inferior. I believe people have a tendency to see themselves as superior and when they are in a group where this goes unchecked it build up over time.

I don’t think men are inferior! I’ve just been having variations on this conversation since I was 14 and so have most of the women I know, so it’s hard not to be jaded and cynical about it sometimes.

This is probably the most controversial thing I will say in this comment, but truthfully I feel cynical about this too but for different reasons. I'm cynical because our skepticism towards all of this is always framed as ignorance, misunderstanding or malice but I believe it's because

1)conversations about masculinity always have to be had on feminists terms, and they don't respond well to justified and well reasoned criticisms towards their worldview.

2) a lot of men don't trust feminists, but this is completely underdiscussed and if it is they are blamed for having distrust at all. But feminists do give men a hell lot of reasons to not trust them, and for all the claims that men don't understand feminism I think well intentioned feminists don't understand other feminists either.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

To address the last point first: I think a lot of people identify as feminists and take the surface-level lessons from it without fostering the understanding/compassionate spirit and the critical thinking required to integrate a feminist perspective into a more comprehensive worldview, especially regarding contemporary issues (because the social landscape has changed significantly in the last five years or so). But I don’t think this properly represents the feminist ethos. And I also think that a significant percentage of people that prescribe to any ideology (including anti-ideology ideologies) similarly misrepresent the belief system they claim, so it isn’t unique to feminism.

I’m going to respond to the rest of this in a numbered list for ease of formatting! Not supposed to sound aggressive or anything

1) That’s not exactly my point. What I’m really trying to say is that people (and especially children) learn what you SHOW them, not what you tell them. And they learn to conform to socially normalised behaviour, so it matters who has to power to control this social norms. To take the example of crying: a mother can tell her son as much as she wants that it’s ok for him to cry and feel his emotions. At a certain age he will go to school and discover that all the other boys in his class think crying is for sissies and that if her cries he will get made fun of. The lesson is clear. There is nothing any one woman can do (and very little that women in general can do) to actually change what this socially normalised behaviour is amongst men. But if he has a man in his life who is socially accepted (i.e. not the class weirdo or a homeless guy on the road) that SHOWS him that crying is normal and okay for men, he might feel less emotionally stifled in this sense. This is most powerful from someone like a father who is consistently there and is judged by the boy to be ‘like him’. The same is true for women. You can tell women their weight doesn’t matter all you want but if every fat girl we see is ugly and badly dressed and every skinny girl we see is living her best life, we’re going to come to a certain conclusion. It takes fat women going out into the world and being confident for girls to understand that gaining weight doesn’t have to be the end of their lives.

What I’m saying is that people are shaped by everyone. But a man’s understanding of how to be and act as a man ultimately comes from his observations of other men ‘like him’. That’s just how people work imo. My parents always told me not to swear, but once I hit 13 they started swearing all the time – and as a result, I probably swear more than they would have liked me to. It doesn’t matter what you tell your kids unless you can model that behaviour for them, and sometimes that can’t cross gender boundaries, especially when male and female environments are so socially different – of course a 13 year old boy wouldn’t want his mother’s social takes. She’s not a dude! I can tell you I certainly never once wanted my father’s social advice – most of it was just to ‘fight fire with fire’.

2) I actually do understand male social interaction and dynamics. And most of my female friendships aren’t dissimilar in how we rib or make fun of each other – but there is an added dimension to that where we know that we could seek emotional support from each other if needed. I don’t particularly think the unemployed jokes are that bad tbh. I understand that men aren’t used to female passive aggressiveness but when you’re truly friends with each other that’s not much of a concern. But yes, most women do have higher standards when it comes to who they are friends with.

This being said: I think female validation only plays a role in male social standards insofar as female validation is required for male validation. What I mean by this is: women desire male validation in and of itself. They want to be wanted and ‘objectively’ desirable by men because that is socially normalised for women. Men do not desire female validation in itself because their worth is determined by what women think of them. Men want to ‘be men’ – i.e. they want male validation that they have made it as the kind of men they want to be. A part of ‘being a man’ has always been the securing of the right kind of woman.

In the past, the ability to secure a woman was pretty much guaranteed by the other markers of manhood. Some degree of financial success, general fitness, a mortgage on a nice house, a promising career, etc. Except now women have rights and opinions, so men also have to make themselves ‘desirable’ to women – which of course women don’t bat an eyelid at because we’ve been doing that for men for centuries, except women don’t really need to ‘secure’ a man anymore, whereas it is still a very real part of male self-worth. Suddenly, women’s opinions are the barrier to them achieving their manhood, and they resent this deeply. Additionally, they are often only interested in a particular portion of women deemed ‘worthy’ enough – but those women clock that redpill has designated them high-value and they realise they don’t have to settle for just any guy because they’re holding out for the men that they know can offer them more and will approach them.

Ergo: men don’t really care about female validation. They want male validation and female validation is becoming a larger part of the process of getting this. But the fact that it is means that that is what they focus on and when they can’t secure a woman and thus achieve the male validation they desire, they blame it on women. Additionally, both men and women seek female validation if they fail to get male validation. Women take solace in the fact that other women think they’re pretty (as if to say, ‘see, [men], you should want me’). Men seek out women (as if to say, ‘see, [men], I can still get pussy even if you don’t accept me’). But both really want male validation – men don’t care about what unattractive women think about them because they don’t want them anyways. Because dating an ugly girl will get them ridiculed rather than accepted.

3) I agree that this pushing keeps happening and happening. But in order for it to abate, men have to start pushing back. Men have to show other men that it is okay to cry. Fathers have show sons how to handle their emotions healthily. Fathers have to learn themselves so that they can teach their sons. It’s hard to do. But it is only men that can truly fix this problem. Every fat and midsize fashion influencer out there is subject to a torrent of hate every single day. But I’m glad they do what they do. Because watching them find their confidence is what helped me find my confidence as a teenager. No one ever said it was easy! But it is important. And necessary.

[–]Maffioze1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

think a lot of people identify as feminists and take the surface-level lessons from it without fostering the understanding/compassionate spirit and the critical thinking required to integrate a feminist perspective into a more comprehensive worldview, especially regarding contemporary issues (because the social landscape has changed significantly in the last five years or so).

I'd find this argument acceptable if academic feminist and those feminists in lobby organisations didn't lack such understanding and compassion, but I think they do.

so it isn’t unique to feminism.

I agree with this though, it definitely isn't unique to feminism.

And they learn to conform to socially normalised behaviour, so it matters who has to power to control this social norms.

I don't see why I'd have to think that men have more power to control social norms than women do. You're right that socialisation doesn't just happen at home, but it's still the most significant component of it. And like, the core of your argument is something I think I even agree with, that technically having the power over something doesn't mean you can or will actually exercise that power for the benefit for your own gender. Where I take it further though is that this also applies to men in positions of power and not just to women.

There is something really odd to me to the way feminists cherrypick what they see as a relevant form of power and what they don't. As a scientist I'm wary of unfalsifiability and this is an example of it I believe. I'm under the impression that forms of power get elevated or dismissed by feminists depending on what they have already decided the conclusion should be, which is not an honest intellectual exercise.

I think it's also uncomfortable how close feminist ideas operate to the gender role that men are active and women are passive, even though they claim to fight those roles.

Ergo: men don’t really care about female validation.

Not meant disrespectfully but all of this seems unprovable speculation to me.

I agree that this pushing keeps happening and happening. But in order for it to abate, men have to start pushing back. Men have to show other men that it is okay to cry. Fathers have show sons how to handle their emotions healthily. Fathers have to learn themselves so that they can teach their sons. It’s hard to do. But it is only men that can truly fix this problem. Every fat and midsize fashion influencer out there is subject to a torrent of hate every single day. But I’m glad they do what they do. Because watching them find their confidence is what helped me find my confidence as a teenager. No one ever said it was easy! But it is important. And necessary.

But you don't do that by acting like its all internalized, because then you're just doing the same stoic thing again, pretending you're in control of it all.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think you’re misunderstanding my argument again! It’s not really about positions of power. What I’m saying is that men control what is socially normalised behaviour for men. Generally speaking. Obviously these gendered divisions in social behaviour vary with age and location and personality, but generally speaking there are socially normalised behaviours for women that are not socially normalised for men, and vice versa. And the way that behaviours become socially normalised is that socially integrated people start exhibiting them or observing them. It is socially normalised behaviour for women to go to the bathroom together because it is a thing that ‘normal’ women do sometimes. Getting multiple piercings was socially normalised for alternative people for years, but it didn’t become socially normalised for non-alt women until socially integrated women – or women that are recognised by the majority as an example of a ‘normal woman’ (e.g. straight women) started to participate. The fact that things get posted online now mean that something can be socially normalised a lot faster – e.g. 9/11 jokes.

Crying is not a socially normalised behaviour for men to exhibit unless it is under certain circumstances. But in order for it to become one, certain men have to cry and exhibit the behaviour of being comfortable crying. Which is a hard ask, obviously. But that is how something like that starts. But there are smaller social environments than society in general – e.g. if dads can cry in front of their sons at home, then their sons will learn that it’s ok (or at least that it isn’t weird/weak/wrong) to cry in this social environment (home), because as the adult male figure, a dad controls what is perceived as socially normalised behaviour within the social environment of the home. Like, my dad hates PDA so I don’t think I’ve ever seen my parents kiss – that isn’t socially normalised behaviour for parents to do, in my head. But socially normalised behaviour is a lot easier or quicker to change in a small or limited social environment – it takes a lot more time in society as a whole. But stuff like having men cry in films or videos or shit that a lot of people end up seeing would push this along – the same way that one person decided to dress up to see the Barbie movie on TikTok and over the course of three months it became socially normalised to see groups of people walking into cinemas dressed up to see whatever the current big movie was. Whereas prior to that you would have assumed they were freaks or into cosplay or whatever.

What I mean about male and female validation is that I think a lot of socially normalised behaviour for women has its roots in male validation. Like it’s socially normalised to wear heels. Why? Cause they make you look sexier (to men). Obviously this is not why everyone wears them now (because it has become socially normalised to dress up for other reasons). But it very much socially normalised behaviour for women to MAKE themselves desirable for men. No woman would really think to make fun of a girl for putting on makeup or dressing sexy or doing her hair. Female validation aligns with male validation, because you are validated and accepted as a woman by dressing up for men – this validation is not a permanent state of acceptance, but it’s like a reassurance that you are still accepted. But you also have more or less ability to deviate from socially normalised behaviour depending on how accepted you are – e.g. a pretty, skinny girl can dress up as a man as a joke, but a fat girl is aware that she does not have the same privilege, because she isn’t comfortable enough in her status of social integration. It’s social currency, basically.

The difference is that it is NOT socially normalised for men to show effort. The social ideal for a man is a naturally handsome guy who’s pretty easygoing and naturally athletic and naturally intelligent and who gets girls without having to try. If you are a man with enough things that earn you male validation, you have more social currency and can deviate from the norms a bit more – a handsome guy who’s 6’2”, rich, funny, athletic, and naturally charismatic can simp over a girl and he has enough ‘aura’ that this is ok. A guy who is aware he is very much not that is aware that if he were to simp over a girl, he would be branded pathetic. Male validation does NOT align with female validation here. The other difference is that although this is less so now, prioritising male validation over female validation has always been socially normalised behaviour for WOMEN. But prioritising FEMALE validation over male validation is NOT socially normalised behaviour for men – it is ridiculed. And men are unlikely to do this unless there is significant emotional investment in a particular woman. But obviously because certain men have more social currency, they may not mind being called ‘whipped’ because they have grown up being assured of their social acceptance/integration.

I think that makes more sense but lmk.

Also on a separate note I think the thing you said at the end is interesting – I’m not suggesting that people are still forcing this stuff on people. I’m saying exactly the opposite – the messages we receive are continuous and there are things we can do to change it. Obviously just because you decide it’s ok to cry doesn’t mean every other guy will think that’s ok. But if every guy that realised this decided they actually didn’t care (again I know this is a hard ask) and cried anyways, then it would become normal eventually. It’s like fat fashion influencers. It’s a socially normalised thing now. But I’m sure the first fat influencers to post themselves were fucking terrified, and for good reason! Because they probably got harassed like crazy. But I’m glad they did it anyways.

[–]UniqueOctopus051 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Also to add more onto this: I also think that when it comes to relationships, women get female validation for being loved. Like the thing that women LOVE to see and what will ensure female validation of your relationship is if a guy is actually in LOVE with you. So when looking for a relationship women focus on love and the markers of love – if they see wanting to buy them little gifts as a thing that expresses love, a woman might say she’s looking for a guy that wants to buy her little gifts. Love will get you more female validation of your relationship that a guy’s looks will – so looks are less of a dealbreaker if he’s in love with you. And at this point it’s not just about being accepted by other women – you’ve just developed an idea of what to aim for over time and internalised it. Women have very specific and individual ideas about the way their ideal man supports and complements them because what we talk about and notice in other women’s relationships with men is how he is just right for her.

Guys also want to be loved and obviously a lot of them have individualised ideas of what this means to them. But the stuff that is socially normalised to ACKNOWLEDGE is not so much the ‘I want to be loved’ stuff but the ‘I want her to be attractive stuff’. So looks are more of a dealbreaker. And for guys that are used to having to think about their social currency (e.g. because they grew up poor or ugly or skinny or fat or whatever) they are more aware of how dating an ugly girl could put their social integration status in peril.

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I'm going to copy/paste a response I made recently in a similar thread so sorry if it's a little different but it should still give you the sources you need:

I would strongly, strongly encourage you and everybody else here to actually do some research on MRAs and why they oppose feminism. For starters: MRAs were originally feminists and only became anti-feminist after feminists became anti-MRA. MRAs already tried to be feminists and feminists kicked them out of the movement because feminism is anti-equality.

MRAs do fight for equality for men, but they face opposition from feminists. For example, NCFM forced California to help male victims of DV. Feminists were the ones in charge of DV shelters that refused to help men and feminist organizations were against NCFM forcing California to help male victims. Feminists also fought against equal custody rights for fathers.

If anybody really wants to learn the history, Uneasy Males is a great book available free here that covers the history of MRAs up until 2000. And look at the documentary about MRAs that was made by a feminist. Cassie Jaye was a feminist who was trying to make an anti-MRA documentary but once she interviewed MRAs and feminists and researched both movements she quit feminism and supported MRAs. And here is the full speech from Warren Farrell in 2012 that was the target of a feminist protest that went viral. Watch that speech with an open mind and ask yourself where the supposed misogyny is, because feminists claim that speech is misogynistic and promotes rape culture.

Also remember that MRAs did advocate for women's issues because MRAs started as feminists. Warren Farrell lead marches on women's rights. Back then NOW wouldn't even let men join but they made an exception for Farrell and not only let him join but actually put him on their Board of Directors because of how much he had fought for women's rights. Karen DeCrow was the President of NOW. Naomi Penner, the co-founder and first VP of NCFM was originally a chapter president for NOW. The current treasurer of NCFM is also a former NOW chapter president. Did you know that the world's first battered women's shelter was started in 1971 by a woman who later became an MRA? The men's rights movement was started by men and women who had been leading the fight for women's rights. They started out as feminists and only became anti-feminist because other feminists kicked them out of the movement, fought against men's equality (especially on equal custody rights and support for male victims of rape/DV) and said that men don't have any issues so it's misogynistic to care about men.

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Yeah but misandry isn’t really the same thing as misogyny. Misandry is a surface level reaction of ‘hatred of men’. Misogyny is the hatred AND OPPRESSION of women. Because misandry is a reaction but misogyny is a function of a patriarchal social order.

The reason I say that they’re different is because misogyny is a lot more than just hatred of women. Whereas misandry isn’t really anything more than hatred of men. So most of the issues actually experienced by men are not because of misandry but because of the patriarchal social order and its oppressive constructs of masculinity.

E.g. the male suicide rate. It’s impacted by misandry, sure. But the real issue is that men don’t show up for each other in an emotionally significant way and society hasn’t set men up with support structures or taught them to deal with their emotions. But this is not perpetuated by misandrists – it’s perpetuated by men who think that real men don’t show weakness or cry or whatever.

It’s like women who have eating disorders. It has its roots in male fixation on a woman’s beauty as a signifier of her worth. But the main thing that drives it is other women’s normalisation of them and exaggerated fixation on every aspect of their appearance.

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“men who defend it are rare” but men who engage in it without realizing it arent, misogynistic implicit biases aren’t rare at all neither are a lot of misogynistic aspects of our culture, like electing the guy who said he grabs women by the genitals or the universality of our disproportionately misogynistic cuss words. i hear where you’re coming from on the idea that misandry is defended more than challenged and the opposite is true for misogyny, certainly there are more people/women who would defend “i hate men” more than there are people who say “i hate women”. but try telling the world to stop saying the word “bitch” or using “pussy” to mean coward and you will absolutely fuckin not receive universal acceptance of that lol ask the world to not vote for a misogynistic rapist and they’ll say you’re a misandrist for calling the misogynistic rapist a misogynistic rapist.

misogyny is not universally considered unacceptable because there is not a universal understanding of what misogyny is. in most cases there is explicit denial. and as someone else pointed out, misogyny is literally the norm and legally enforced in some countries, that’s not the case with misandry. there isn’t even a country where women hold the majority of political or economic power let alone have a monopoly on gendered hate

i’m totally down with criticizing misandry, i have a personal opinion you can guess on whether i think misogyny is generally worse, but i also do think we’re all ultimately better off not trying to say which one is worse until we can properly quantify and research it

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I’m so sorry what do you mean which gender gets hurt the most from the other gender’s hatred? Did you miss the part where most women have experienced some form of sexual violence? Like actually the majority of women have been sexually violated in some way. And you want to tell me men hurt more from thinking women hate them?

I’m not trying to say all or even most men are evil. What I am trying to say is that the problem is not that people are hurting your feelings. It’s that people aren’t teaching you the healthy ways to deal with your feelings being hurt. Having hurt feelings isn’t an excuse to lash out at people.

I’m not saying that it’s ok for people to hurt your feelings. But I am asking you to have any amount of understanding of someone else’s situation. And to recognise that regardless of who hurt them, your feelings are YOUR responsibility to deal with healthily. Because in life, feelings get hurt. If I got on the Internet and spread nasty shit about men every time someone hurt my feelings, if ever have time to have a fulfilling life. It is not anyone’s responsibility but yours to deal with your feelings. And I’m sorry if no one has taught you a healthy way to do that.

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Notice how the blue tribe has no gender, race, ethnicity, or sexuality? That’s the whole point. And you just ignore the fact that the Red tribe, unlike today never even considered talking because they would rather fight back. And the fighting goes on for so long that in reality, how it started doesn’t mated. The blue tribe that started it have been long dead and now it’s the red tribe going after the innocent next generation of blue tribe that remain innocent all because the red tribe believe they have to pay for the sins of their parents.

The only way to actually stop it is not by villainizing the opposing side or undermining the opposing side’s problems because of who started it or how long they suffered or who suffered worst. Intead leaving both tribes that do nothing but senseless violence and try to live at peace together.

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if thats how u view it, again misandry has like little cultural or systemic influence.

The justice system is more sexist than it is racist.

The education system is heavily tailored to what benefits girls at the expense of boys/men.

The taxation system essentially makes men subsidize women's quality of life.

The political system requires Men to earn their right to vote by giving up part of their bodily autonomy to the government while women are given that right for free.

Basically, men are second class citizens.

I could say a bunch of things about culture like the fact that men are more likely to be murdered than women, but I'm going to focus on 2 cultural things because without addressing them none of what I could say matters:

female in-group bias
the empathy gap.

If you address those two things in how you think about this, it's basically not a question that misandry is a very big deal.

[–]Aramarara1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The justice system is more sexist than it is racist.

literally how? other than the whole child custody shit, how is it more sexist than racists?

The education system is heavily tailored to what benefits girls at the expense of boys/men.

that is one massive victim complex personally Id say schools are more tailored to the most obedience than girls, and you know who is usually and societally expected to be obedient? women. And again I dont see how the school system "benefits" girls (or anyone) when it just trains them to seek approval rather than be independent lol.

The taxation system essentially makes men subsidize women's quality of life.

lol where did you get this information? from hoe_math? I literally have never seen an example of this irl or in any studies (if you see one then gimme the link to it). Like you do realize that alot of women live in poverty right? also like the disregard of female health and hygiene? [source]. Like theres so many women who cant even afford a basic menstrual pad, and while you can say "but most of it mentioned 3rd world countries!!", "1st world countries" like America are no exemptions [[source]²].(https://www.issa.com/articles/price-of-menstrual-products-increasing/) Also if your gonna say something dumb like women spend more money on useless shit, just so you know, men are more likely to spend their money on useless shit than women lol.

The political system requires Men to earn their right to vote by giving up part of their bodily autonomy to the government while women are given that right for free.

how delusional are you? in what universe do you live in? we literally live ina world where women are loosing their reproductive rights bit by bit, what did men have to even sacrifice? If your gonna make such a ridiculous claim atleast try to explain it. Like what the hell are they sacrificing? what do you mean by bodily autonomy? like do they have men have to become eunuchs in order to vote or something?

Basically, men are second class citizens.

pure delusional, you live in a fictional made up world thats shape by manosphere content rather than real life studies, while yes there are times that men are treated infairly, its usually the result of misogyny, like why do men get drafted but women dont? its because women are seen as weak. Why are men usually expected to be the breadwinner? Because women historically are seen to be incapable with exemption of child rearing. Why do women usually get lesser prison sentence? Its because its viewed that women are far more passive and weaker than men, thus resulting in womens horrid actions being taken not as seriously as men.

If viewing women as weak, incapable and dependent not misogyny, then you gotta be living in a different world broski.

Misogyny goes harms everyone regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, etc.

I could say a bunch of things about culture like the fact that men are more likely to be murdered than women

thats because women are viewed as spoils of war, theyre usually raped instead of being murdered. Which is no better than being murdered lol

also addresing your last two points, idk what you meant by in-group female bias, like how can you tell that most of your opinions arent just in-group male bias lol. Im not sure abt the empathy gap thingy, can you be a bit more clearer by what you meant?😅

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[–]KingGIGADuckkXVII1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That’s not remotely true. One could stand to write an entire dissertation on the current global political climate and how misogyny undergirds almost the entire ideology. It is a cavalcade of women-hating and/women objectifying men, including gay men, all men’s men obsessed with the metaphorical “daddy” and the “traditional household” which means—you guessed it—rule by a patriarch. In the US at least, Gamergate is the primordial goo that brought about the alt-right, which happens to be the alpha and omega of misogynistic internet-bred hate movements.

Has misandry increased? Yes, I agree. It likely has as a result of the internet propensity to generate low-level sensationalistic discourse that’s ultimately a collection of projections by the individuals who are engaged with each other.

But has it increased in such a way that it outpaces both the general volume of and the increase misogyny? At the very least as a factor relates to global cultural trends?

Absolutely not.

[–]musicissoulfood1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KingGIGADuckkXVII1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. Unfortunately for you, all there is in your comment is an opinion. it is an opinion based off of anecdotal evidence.

What I wrote is not just an opinion—for one, it’s observable from every angle but it has been documented and been theorized upon by social scientists and historians. It ceases being an opinion and becomes a theory backed by expertise and evidence.

You haven’t addressed anything specifically—maybe start with addressing how it’s an “opinion” hat Gamergate isn’t misogynistic? I believe that debacle includes all the receipts of the doxxing and demands for rape of female journalists. Steve Bannon is also on record acknowledging its connection to the popularity of Breitbart, the infamous alt-right website.

Come on, man—shitty hashtags are a dime a dozen. That’s an inevitability on the web. Aside from whether or not there’s satire or intentional hyperbole—I still find it disagreeable that that would be a hashtag but hurt people are all over the internet. We cannot discuss an occurrence that’s endemic to the internet experience as if it’s outstanding evidence no matter how much you dislike it. It doesn’t mean it’s risen to a cultural crisis of misandry because the material reality of the world reinforces the fact that patriarchy and misogyny is still very much in control. That’s not an opinion. Just because you’ve seen that hashtag doesn’t mean it’s risen to outlier status. Not when Roe v. Wade is being overturned or there’s a rapist leading the democratic world powers.

I beg you to see the philosophy that undergird “red pill” as destructive and misogynistic in itself. It is not about male self-improvement. It is about uniting around a fundamentally unhelpful causal misogyny to reinforcement male archetypes that were never even real. Rather than existing on the premise that suffering is universal to life, it blames pain on women and wants us to become stoic patriarchs—as if that didn’t set up for generational pain throughout most of history.

If we don’t start choosing to allow ourselves to understand our suffering and to understand the suffering of women we will never be able to rise into a place that honors common humanity thereby reducing misogyny and misandry.

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[–]KingGIGADuckkXVII1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No—because like the person I’ve had this discussion with above, you’re going to ignore the social l, historical, and political context in which these phenomena take place. I’m not going to read through a handful of cherry-picked examples of systemic oppression devoid of any meaningful context. As such, you’ll be throwing what I assume is “evidence” at me for its rhetorical rather than its substantive quality. No matter how many times I can return to you with, “women suffer X crimes y many more times” or “here I demonstrate how nearly all medical research has neglected women’s biology and psychology health since its inception” you will simply insist it’s not an example of a much broader and much more deeply impactful trend of misogyny.

For example:

Historical: the lion’s share of so-called western tradition is patriarchal, including but not limited to the I influence Christian religion or another good example is the actual letter of the law, where husbands were allowed to rape wives and those same wives needed their husband’s permission for a credit card. Yet, somehow, all of that context, in the rhetoric of the last discussion, is missing. Surely it is admissible for consideration when discussing a society that is looking back on that—AND STILL puts up numbers in terms of misogynistic crimes.

The refrain stands:

“Men are afraid of being laughed at, women are afraid of being murdered.”

Additionally, (and likely most important for your purposes) if you read my first comment, I agree it’s clear that misandry has risen as well, just not to the degree that it’s dethroned widespread and deeply impactful misogyny. Surely there will be more suffering. Not something I’ve denied. This is not a debate about the existence of misandry, it’s about whether or not it motivates the point of view asserted by the first poster I responded to.

But there are guys here who instead of pulling up their breeches and facing reality insist that the reason they are unhappy are women and Women’s power.

Last—there are surely systemic examples of harm inflicted on men, but red pill ideology seems incapable of apprehending they precede and envelop the conflict between men and women and therefore facilitate not only our collective pain but motivate men to insist that domination of women is a central part of the existence we’re entitled to.

At the very least, perhaps most casual understanding, y’all fail to understand you don’t get to be a trollish nihilist who voted against women’s rights and enjoy no social repercussions—and therein we get into the broader issue mentioned above, which is that “red pill” does not locate the problems within their broader context and/or history. It cherry picks to get men to buy into a highly seductive and profitable ideology.

Idk if you’re a red pill’er but neither of you have offered me a separate solution other than that.

[–]CampfireMemorial1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KingGIGADuckkXVII1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CampfireMemorial1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KingGIGADuckkXVII1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, I would never take a claim entirely on statistics. The truth can only be approached through a combination of qualitative and quantitative understanding. Statistics are insanely easy to twist. My dad always repeated the saying “the figures don’t lie, but liars sure can figure.”

They’re also easily misunderstood. For example:

Like, did you know women who own horses live longer than other women?

(No, horses are expensive. That means they can afford healthcare, and wealth usually means she has attained a number of other markers that insulates her factors that would limit her life expectancy.)

The most straight forward topic is sex crimes and violence against women, but it’s way more important to understand psychology, rhetoric, and history. I’d start with history texts, pair with feminist writers, and then go into the stats. There’s the history of the suffragists, Witches, Midwives, and Nurses, is a good one about those professions, one could check into how recently laws began to change to give women more autonomy (sadly it’s very recent), there are also writers who’ve touched on the Nazi attitude toward femininity and the relationship between authoritarianism and misogyny (though no one specifically comes to mind).

Medical research is an interesting topic. It’s like harm by omission of effort. It’s crazy how much isn’t known for sure about women’s bodies because their biology has been ignored. Like, general medical trials way overuse the so-called average male.

The best book I can recommend is probably The Will to Change by bell hooks. It doesn’t deal with any one of these things specifically but it dives into how patriarchal expectations cause us pain and push us into becoming emotionally underdeveloped and unable to form healthy relationships with women, which in turn causes a turn towards misogyny—which leave us vulnerable to bad ideas like “red pill.”

[–]CampfireMemorial1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KingGIGADuckkXVII1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We’ve touched on many across the oodles of word count I’ve left across this thread, starting with the original discussion I had with a previous discussion partner.

There is no handy fix-all. I’d point you back to bell hooks. As men, we have the power to betray common power structures and toxic expectations. She points out a lot of us are actually beholden to the sexual expectations of other men in order to prove manhood. She discusses how the pain of rejection can fester and become the basis for a misogynistic view in life. Most importantly she lays out the patriarchy—an engine of misogyny—and its effect on us and culture. It’s pretty straightforward: we heal ourselves and misogyny begins to recede.

I hope I don’t need to preface that with saying the ills of society can never be 100% healed. One last note—across all these conversations, I am often dumbfounded by the insistence of other men, mostly because I know almost all of us have been party to “locker room conversations.” I’ve seen misogyny in action, and I know 95% of us have based off of how many groups I’ve been a part of myself and how many men I’ve listened to and read. I could write books detailing all of it but if other men don’t want to see it then it’s a moot point. I ask myself all the time: is it because they don’t know misogyny when they see it? Are they already to blinded by negative thoughts about women? Is it resentment?

For my money it always comes down to the fact that seeing the truth would mean confronting their own pain and trying be vulnerable, accepting life for what comes. Men are deathly afraid of doing that. It’s far easier to be mad.

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[–]brittbandssup1 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay. Fair point made. Definitely i agree with you, there needs to be amends made to the way we define rape. And there should be so much more resources for men to feel comfortable and safe to talk about it.

However, those issues are not a result of misandry. Those are a result of the patriarchy.

Aswell. In your source it states that women are still more likely to experience sexual assault, and you haven't done your research either. Let me quote my source for you from the US dept of justice. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Let's assume there are undocumented cases perpetrated by women. There are also undocumented cases perpetrated by men. I doubt these cases would shift the data that we have to make the majority of perpetrators of women. If that happens one day, then i would have been proven wrong on the argument more women rape, however I wouldn't be wrong that misogyny causes more rapes then misandry does.

(Sorry about the font size changes. My point doesn't change)

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm glad that you brought this information up, because I've read this study into full detail.

This is not a result of the patriarchy, as patriarchy is defined as "Male benefit to women's expenses". (Side note: I know Patriarchy, much like Pennywise from "Welcome to Derry" is ambiguous and takes many forms, but we'll go off of this one for now.)

As we can see here there is nothing male-benefit to women's expense. In fact it was at deemed by feminist movement that it would "Be at women's expense to recognize male victims", as this was an ideology pushed by notable feminists such as Mary P. Koss. Mary P. Koss, an academic award winning scholar who is a Sexual Violence, and primary advisor to the Center of Disease Control's NISVS and Federal Bureau of Investigation and crucial part to the feminist movement pushed against all notions to accept male victims of r4p3 if the perpetrator was female, prior to 2013 (2013 when the FBI changed the definition to accept male victims). She beleived that "Because men have a social and physical dominance, it was impossible for women to rape men," and deemed it as "Unwanted Contact". She also stated that "A woman taking advantage of a man was wanted" (in the same way we beleive that patriarchy teaches men this. So we can see where men got their beliefs from.) Post 2013 when men could be accepted into the calculations of "victims of rape" she heavily excluded ways women could be seen as perpetrators, and pushed for the CDC's NISVS and FBI to make "Made-To-Penetrate" stats (the act of the man being coerced or forced against his will to penetrate) to be completely different from "rape" stats.

To deny and/or downplay the existence of male victims of female perpetrators. This is the result of misandry, which is stated as the dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men in similar retrospect to misogyny; the dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women when we denied and dismissed and downplayed women's sexual assault. If you have a dislike or contempt for men, you're gonna refuse to help them or extend any of your recourses. I know feminists claim that "misandry is a reaction to misogyny" and all that, however, this is a clear reaction to the retrospective of women.

Not the patriarchy, where men solely benefit.

"An estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male. (1) This US Dept. of Justice statistic does not report those who do not identify in these gender boxes.

"Rape according to the CDC and FBI is described as Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

You can't penetrate with a vagina, but you can penetrate with a penis. If you have a penis, biologically you are male. So if rape is described as "penetration" in which almost all the time you need a penis (unless you use a dildo, or your fingers, which is less likely to happen than riding the man), then it makes sense that 99% of all perpetrators of rape.. drum roll please male.. Even oral penetration (blowjobs) does not bring as much as sexual satisfaction like riding a man does (making him penetrate you). So it's possible that the 1% of "rape" that includes oral penetration was from women.

Hope I was detailed enough. Looking forward to your response (in good faith).

[–]brittbandssup1 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry for the late response. And the poorly structured response.

When i mean the patriarchy is the cause for these laws against men, i mean these ideas are heavily stemmed in the idea that men should be strong and that their the dominant gender, so rape towards them doesn't 'count.'

Misogyny and misandry although the same meaning in the opposite way, tend to translate different messaging. Misogynists tend to hate women in the way they'd want to harm women. Ie physically sexually emotionally. Misandrists tend to hate men in the way of critiquing them, ignoring them and admittingly yes being more hostile towards them in the form of public interactions. In most cases you'd find the vast majority of people who identify themselves to be misandrists tend to dislike men to the point of ignoring them all together- hence concepts like the 4B movement.

" If you have a dislike or contempt for men, you're gonna refuse to help them or extend any of your recourses"

". I know feminists claim that "misandry is a reaction to misogyny" "

"Not the patriarchy, where men solely benefit."

Statement one: I'd consider myself a misandrist. I hate men. However there are things I hate much more then men. Like rape. Actually, rape statistics and how often women get raped are one of the reasons I hate men. Thus it would be very hypocritical of myself to not support men when they get raped. And I'm sure most misandrists would agree. Hatred comes in different degrees.

Statement two: Yes. The majority of self identifying misandrists hate men because of misogyny. Are there exceptions? Obviously. But in every type of community or group there are exceptions and minoritys.

Statement 3: Now. The patriarchy men benefit off of in physical manifestations. However, societal gender norms as the result of the patriarchy make men feel pressured to be more dominant (I've said dominant so many times in this paragraph but you get my point).

Let's circle back to the main Argument which i think is what started this. Misogyny harms women more then Misandry harms men.

1 in 4 women VS 1 in 26 men.

Women still face discrimination in the workplace, the medical field, and still don't even have basic human rights in multiple countries across the world.

The struggled men face are caused by the system that they created.

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your structure is fine. Mine will be sloppy, I'm working today. I'm going to try and be detailed.

While it is common to beleive that "Patriarchy makes men appear as strong", feminism aids this idea by pushing the "Men bad women good narrative." It's called the "Women are Wonderful" trope. Patriarchy beleives that "Men must be strong so rape doesn't count", however feminism teaches (with the most notable individuals being Mary Koss and Ellen Pence and thousands of self-proclaimed feminists) beleives that because Patriarchy exist and women are supposed to be the "oppressed demographic," that rape doesn't count for men because "men are strong and evil." Which is based on their own biasness. It goes hand in hand. The issue is that feminists tend to refute that idea that they would think such a thing because it's makes them appear less morally superior.

2. Hatred isn't caused by one single part of the brain, but involves a network called the "hate circuit," activating areas like the insula, putamen, and medial frontal gyrus (frontal cortex), which prepare for action and process disgust/contempt, while also involving the amygdala (fear) and deactivating parts of the prefrontal cortex (reasoning) to fuel intense emotions, making it complex and linked to aggression. We were all born with this, that being said, it is impossible to push the narrative that misandry is a reaction to misogyny and misogyny came from the atmosphere. Misogyny itself had to be a reaction to a treatment from women themself. Misogyny and Misandry being the dislike and contempt to another, have similar meanings and are not mutually exclusive to just "violence and harm" and "reasonable critique." That is a fabricated ideology that feminists tend to downplay women's poor behaviors to men, and to me and I think anyone who can see past this knows this is what's called Moral Superiority. Feminism is the idea that women are human, and hatred is a very complex human emotion that everyone feels. It did not just spawn in women simply because they were victims, it was already there. It leads to physical and sexual contempt for others. That's simple cause and affects. I do not understand where women got the idea that "mens hatred breeds violence but womens hatred is regulated to only words." Thats not backed up by any form of science. Only thing I found was research conducted by feminist scholors in what appeared to just say "Men bad. Women innocent." Im sorry but they had no logical form of science behind their claims. To add to this, it is illogical to beleive that man evolved on earth with the ability and obligation to do wrong while evolved with zero negative emotion or feeling of hatred and could not act negativly unless acted upon.. That goes against biology, theology, psychology and all reasonable forms of sociology. So no, misandry will not just be confined to "reasonable critique for what men do." I'm sorry but that is an asinine claim that goes against psychology and other forms of neuroscienc and behavioral science. We can see this in women's behavioral patterns and the digital footprint on social media of both men and women's behaviors. We can see this in video evidence (which can be taken to court and used as evidence) that women beleive that physical and sexual assault against men is acceptable. This is why they beleive the "Never hit women no matter what but we can hit you whenever" idea, and sadly it's very popular. This goes beyond "Simple critique" or "hatred for rape and aggression" this is hatred of existence in the sane way it is misogyny for men to know they can assault women with no consequences. To your claim the "vast majority" of women who claim misandry were very happy to admit they've assaulted a man.

If you have a hatred for men, that's fine. Regulate it to simple hatred. The issue feminists have is recognizing the principles that "Women's hatred is just harmful words." Thats not where hatred ends, and to beleive that all living human beings who identify with being a woman are emotionally intelligent enough to regulate it to just harmful words is not a sensible and rational claim based on cognitive reality. Psychological research shows us that hatred influences our actions and ways of thinking by distorting perceptions, driving irrational actions (like revenge or avoidance), hindering rational thought, and becoming a powerful, consuming motivation, often leading to destructive choices in personal relationships, politics, and conflict. It shifts focus from objective facts to malicious intent, clouding judgment and making individuals seek harm or non-existence for the target, as seen in hate crimes or political polarization. (Psychology Today, American Psychological Association). If you have a female judge with a hatred for men based on her own personal experience, she will not just be confined to harmful words, she will issue harsher treatment to the men who appear before her in court, whether they are perpetrators or victims.
The minority of misandrist keep it to just harmful words. The majority of them use violence because it takes an immense amount maturity and self-regulation which very few people have.

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As far as patriarchy goes, the term used by feminists when describing patriarchy contradicts itself in many ways to the point that it is now a semantic shift. "Patriarchy causes men to kill women, patriarchy causes men to be victims of women and not seek help, patriarchy benefits men and women's expense, patriarchy harms men." It switches numerous times to fit whatever narrative the individual has in mind.
Misogyny harms women. Misandry harms men. The issues lie different ways. One of the main issues I have is that any actions done to women is seen as a hate crime while a woman doing to a man is not. So even women talking in public spaces about how they hate men and how they e assaulted men isn't even seen as "hatred". That's not because misandry doesn't cause harm its because they do not want to admit that it does. As I've stated before physical and sexual abuse towards men and boys is normalized to the points it's on TV and no one says a thing. Put women in that situation and you've got misogyny. It's the same thing, similar yet different effects.
I read your stats, thank you for the update. That was on Dec 17th 2025 update, mine was from 2022. Remember that men are significantly less likely to report their experiences compared to women and men lack resources like women. But im glad the numbers went down.
I'd say that this is an issue, yes. But not an oppression. Even white guys I know face that. Sometimes it gets physical.
While the some of the struggles that men face is caused by men, it is important to recognize women's contributions to this.

1 Male domestic violence shelters and any attempt to recognize male victims of female perpetrators was shot down by mainstream feminists who portrayed belligerence (aggressive and even warlike behavior). We've seen this for Erin Pizzey, Stanley Green, Earl Silverman, Suzanne K. Steinmetz.

2 "Dominant Aggressor" laws. The laws which came as a domestic violence protocol from the Duluth Module with the idea that "men are always the aggressor and women are always the victim and women can never be the aggressors as they are the oppressed demographic, so arrest men on site." This is where misandry comes in, the dislike and contempt for men, like I've stated doesn't stop at just words. It bleeds into beleifs, beleifs lead to actions. So while in the 1970s, where DV stats dates back to, showed that there were similar rates of violence, feminists said "nah, only women". Now we have Dominant Aggressor Laws like Police Penal Code 9.1-1300 which is explained to arrest the individual who appears to be more physically dominant to the arrestesting officer. So that may be a masculine lesbian, or more commonly, a man. Men have reported that despite being the victim to a domestic dispute, they have taken to jail. (Side note, as an Emergency Medical Technician, I work with law enforcement for public and domestic assault, this is usually how it goes.) As we can see this is far from how feminists describe the patriarchy.

Truthfulsophist · 2025-07-22T22:29:58+00:00

Whenever I say "Misandry is bad", misandrists come and say "Well, misandry hurts men's feelings, misogyny kills...

3 Gender specific rape laws, as stated before, specific to exclude ways women can be perpetrators as rape is defined as "penetration to vaginal or anus". Prior to 2013, all notions to accept male victims of female perpetrators was blocked by feminists with the most notable ones being Mary P. Koss. Numerous other countries with prominent women's orginizations adopted this beleif with India being the ones to heavily fight against gender neutral r4p3 laws. Israel has just changed theirs after 2 decades of women's orginizations being against these laws.

4 Child custody, while it's important to note that (whether we evolved from monkeys or God put us on earth, whatever you beleive) we adhere to gender roles, feminists and a plathora of women have shot down all notions of 50/50 split of custody. As Senate Bill 1796, legislation related to family law and child time-sharing awaits Family First Gov. Ron DeSantis’ signature, left-wing groups such as the progressive League of Women Voters and the National Organization of Women (NOW) continue to lobby against the measure on behalf of trial lawyers who stand to lose millions of dollars in billable hours if Gov. DeSantis signs this family-first bill into law.

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

While the some of the struggles that men face is caused by men, it is important to recognize women's contributions to this.
1 Male domestic violence shelters and any attempt to recognize male victims of female perpetrators was shot down by mainstream feminists who portrayed belligerence (aggressive and even warlike behavior). We've seen this for Erin Pizzey, Stanley Green, Earl Silverman, Suzanne K. Steinmetz.

2 "Dominant Aggressor" laws. The laws which came as a domestic violence protocol from the Duluth Module with the idea that "men are always the aggressor and women are always the victim and women can never be the aggressors as they are the oppressed demographic, so arrest men on site." This is where misandry comes in, the dislike and contempt for men, like I've stated doesn't stop at just words. It bleeds into beleifs, beleifs lead to actions. So while in the 1970s, where DV stats dates back to, showed that there were similar rates of violence, feminists said "nah, only women". Now we have Dominant Aggressor Laws like Police Penal Code 9.1-1300 which is explained to arrest the individual who appears to be more physically dominant to the arrestesting officer. So that may be a masculine lesbian, or more commonly, a man. Men have reported that despite being the victim to a domestic dispute, they have taken to jail. (Side note, as an Emergency Medical Technician, I work with law enforcement for public and domestic assault, this is usually how it goes.) As we can see this is far from how feminists describe the patriarchy.

3 Gender specific rape laws, as stated before, specific to exclude ways women can be perpetrators as rape is defined as "penetration to vaginal or anus". Prior to 2013, all notions to accept male victims of female perpetrators was blocked by feminists with the most notable ones being Mary P. Koss. Numerous other countries with prominent women's orginizations adopted this beleif with India being the ones to heavily fight against gender neutral r4p3 laws. Israel has just changed theirs after 2 decades of women's orginizations being against these laws.

4 Child custody, while it's important to note that (whether we evolved from monkeys or God put us on earth, whatever you beleive) we adhere to gender roles, feminists and a plathora of women have shot down all notions of 50/50 split of custody. As Senate Bill 1796, legislation related to family law and child time-sharing awaits Family First Gov. Ron DeSantis’ signature, left-wing groups such as the progressive League of Women Voters and the National Organization of Women (NOW) continue to lobby against the measure on behalf of trial lawyers who stand to lose millions of dollars in billable hours if Gov. DeSantis signs this family-first bill into law. Now I'm no republican.. but holy Jesus why was this an issue..

[–]brittbandssup1 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In rape statistics; According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Center of Disease Control's NISV,

"Rape criteria is based on whether the perpetrator completed the act of penetration or attempted penetration. (Keep in mind you need a penis to penetrate or something else stick like, which is highly unlikely for a female to do as 3rd party objects do not bring the woman sexual satisfaction like making the victim penetrate her does. 1 in 5 women have reported they've victims of penetration. 1 in 26 for men. However, 1 in 9 men have been made against their will to penetrate a woman.

"Underreporting: Male victims, in particular, are significantly less likely to report these crimes due to shame and fear, making official figures likely underestimates."

https://www.cdc.gov/intimate-partner-violence/about/intimate-partner-violence-sexual-violence-and-stalking-among-men.html

Now let's be less formal and use common sense, a man touches you and you punch him in the face, right? What happens if you punch a woman for assaulting you? You're going to jail, right? Meaning that she's gonna know she can do it again, right?

[–]brittbandssup1 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Clear-Search-83731 point 11 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Similar-Pear45851 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]brittbandssup1 point 7 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why aren't women in the trenches? Why aren't women in the mines? Why? Do you ever think to yourself that?

I assume not. To answer your question, statistically less women do manual jobs due to the existing stereotype that men are stronger then women, and the gender roles that are fed into children from a young age. (Little boys being gifted tool sets, etc)

Now how do men benefit off of misogyny?

-men tend to be treated more fairly and with care in the medical fields, adding onto that women are 14% less likely to be given cpr as to a man, as the vast majority of cpr demo mannequins are made without breasts.

-married men are more likely to get employed compared to married women, due to employers fears that women would get pregnant and take a leave.

-men also on average spend less then women. Women have to pay for sanitary products, and due to social pressures, spend on makeup, and beauty products, as in one survey 49% of employers stated a women's appearance would affect if they hired them.

Also the added obvious factor of men get the luxury of feeling safer then women walking streets. Less fear of being raped, being catcalled, harrassed at a pub.

[–]Fearfanfic1 point 11 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppyHaunted by ghosts of Dickmas Past ♀ [score hidden] 1 year ago (54 children) | Copy Link

[–]KhadgarIsaDreadlordPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Men's attitudes about and treatment of women has never had any significant correlation with how women feel about men

That's kind of a false equivilency tho. At no point in history did we have the internet where we can see millions of people going mask off on the most reprehensible shit imaginable. People were never that brave irl. Most of the shit people say in this very subreddit would earn social ostracization to this day.

There are studies that prove that social media has tangible effects on the psyche. It's pretty obvious that people form opinions and beliefs based on what they read on the internet.

I think seeing hatred towards your sex 24/7 and trends where thousands of women say that an apex predator is preferable company instead of you can, in fact mold your perception to resent women. It's common sense.

These are stimuli that never existed before and behavior people didn't express in public.

[–]AramararaBlue Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]KhadgarIsaDreadlord2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

and what do you count as misandry?

Hatred of men on the basis of their gender. That's what the term "misandry" means and that's what I'm counting as such.

like you do realize misogyny is still prevalent in "first world countries" right?

To some extent sure and it always will exist even if we start executing people for it. Similarly to other forms of discrimination you can't get rid of it, just reduce it to the point of powerlessness. Prevalent is an overstatement, being a misogynist brings immediate social (and legal) consequences therefore even if someone holds prejudice against women, they are unlikely to express it.

like the pay gap?

The wage gap conspiracy theory have been debunked by hundreds of economists years ago. You are free to read up on this conspiracy theory getting disected and destroyed at every point but the bottom line is that paying people less based on their sex is ILLEGAL.

You may as well use the flat earth theory as a talking point.

Here's an article that goes into details: https://share.google/Pf3gikfA5yacgwwos

how abt the double standards? (like how a woman who had sex is a hoe but when its a man it praised??) the pink tax??

Yeah how about them?

I personally look at fuckboys the exact same as sluts but I recognise that's not the common sentiment. The short awnser is that it's easy to be a slut, a fuckboy has to have the charisma, the looks and the status to attract the women he wants to sleep with. It's generally harder to attract a women and you have to stand out from the rest of their options Men are also the expected initiators so that probably also has something to do with it.

Idk how familiar you are with the gay community but male sluts aren't exactly looked at fondly there either.

The pink tax is another made up conspiracy theory that has been debunked basically the moment it was invented. Here you go:

https://share.google/pxN3f2Y2qoYAVBH4R

Ok, my turn:

How come women on average are sentenced more leniently than men who commit the same crimes?
How come openly expressing hate towards men doesn't result in the same social consequences as misogyny?
How come male victims of female-perpetrated violence (sexual or otherwise) are supressed and ridiculed to this day?
How come men don't have any reproductive rights after conception and women get to hold them financially liable for a decision they don't get to make (carrying the pregnancy to term)?
How come there are no shelters for male victims of domestic violence, and the one time a dude created one in Canada, he was bullied into suicide?
How come we have women-only spaces but the idea of men-only spaces is considered segregation?

I could do this all day, systematic misandry has deep roots.

Like theres so many example, of misogyny, if your gonna say something like how men being made fun of for showing their feelings as misandry, thats dumb asf, bcs think of it, why is it stigmatized for men to be vulnerable? Because being vulnerable is seen as feminine, if viewing femininity as something weak and undesirable not misogyngy, Id like to see what is YOUR DEFINITION of misogyny and misandry is.

That's a lot of assumtions. No, I wouldn't consider men's emotional unavailability as a result of misandry. Opening up is a surefire way to make a woman lose any sexual interest in you 9 times out of 10 tho. I think it's evolutionary, being vulnerable is not a desirable male trait for most women even if they claim otherwise. I doubt it comes from any concious thought or hate tho.

[–]Aramarara1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How come women on average are sentenced more leniently than men who commit the same crimes?

Thats because women are considered weak and less dangerous lol. Thats still misogyny dawg

How come openly expressing hate towards men doesn't result in the same social consequences as misogyny?

Its not lol, if you say you hate men irl ppl will look at you weird, some might even shame and argue with you, its not as societally acceptable as you think it is.

How come male victims of female-perpetrated violence (sexual or otherwise) are supressed and ridiculed to this day?

Benevolent sexism. This reinforces that women cant be perpetrators because theyre perceived as weak, plus the view that men are always strong and women are weak and unable to fight back. Misogyny can harm both sides lol.

How come men don't have any reproductive rights after conception and women get to hold them financially liable for a decision they don't get to make (carrying the pregnancy to term)?

wearing a condom couldve solved this problem lol, also poking a hole in a condom is considered as rape.[source] Ik its pretty hard to prove that it, but the same goes as stealthing lol.

How come there are no shelters for male victims of domestic violence, and the one time a dude created one in Canada, he was bullied into suicide?

because being a victim is viewed as weak, and being weak is usually viewed as feminine. Btw its alr explained at what I said on no.3

How come we have women-only spaces but the idea of men-only spaces is considered segregation?

Thats because historically "male-only spaces" is used to keep women away from opportunities from getting a professional career. When you say male-only spaces ppl think of the times where jobs are male only, if you clarify to them that its something like boy scouts, theyre usually fine with.

Women-only spaces are usually to avoid sexual harassment, so women can talk to eachother and feel safe, and alot more reasons! Womens spaces dont really take away any opportunities from men.

That's a lot of assumtions. No, I wouldn't consider men's emotional unavailability as a result of misandry. Opening up is a surefire way to make a woman lose any sexual interest in you 9 times out of 10 tho. I think it's evolutionary, being vulnerable is not a desirable male trait for most women even if they claim otherwise. I doubt it comes from any concious thought or hate tho.

Your using evolutionary verryyy... loosely here, most of the data (that I found) are pretty outdated, most of them being from the 2010s, which Im pretty sure we can agree that the 2010s and 2020s are verryyy... different. But I could see your point, alot of the fem centered romance I read usually feautures an aloof ml, I usually find it annoying since they usually suck at communication (I rlly, rlly hate the miscommunication trope). But the fact that its very common is kinda sad :(

[–]Crazy-Crazy-35931 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're just wrong that it's not socially accepted to hate men.

MenAreTrash and KillAllMen were huge hashtags which the social media platforms did nothing about. The gender reverse would never have been tolerated.

Even IRL, it is routinely acceptable for "normal women" to belittle and demean their male partners in conversations with other women, which I have very little doubt, most men would be saying to their friends, "dude ... if that's how you feel about your wife, why are you even married?" if they talked about their wives that way to each other.

Look up Joy Behar and Ann Navarro on the View yucking it up about how "men are useless ..." (no doubt surrounded in a dark studio by plenty of male cameramen, and grips, and technicians making their show run) ... do you honestly think the gender reverse of that attitude would be mainstream acceptable on network TV in the 2020s?

[–]Aramarara1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First of all, alot of those hashtags are wildly criticized, like it shows that "hatred" against men is not tolerated, even by the public.

Joy Behar and Ann Navarro on the View yucking it up

idk who those ppl are tbh, I tried searching the specific vid clip ur talking abt but I cant really find anything, mb reply to me with clip, for all I could know you could just be exaggerating it.

Even IRL, it is routinely acceptable for "normal women" to belittle and demean their male partners in conversations with other women, which I have very little doubt, most men would be saying to their friends, "dude ... if that's how you feel about your wife, why are you even married?" if they talked about their wives that way to each other.

its not really lol, when a woman complains abt their male partners, its usually bcs he's not doing anything to help (via; household chores, taking care of their children, etc.). getting upset ≠ belittling, lol. But its not like you can tell the difference, like even if a man complains abt their female partner, as long as it justified (like the prior examples), I personally wouldnt see a problem.

I think most these points that you bring are just anecdotal tbh, it just sounds like you had a breakup and now your just projecting it to all women lol (before you complain, yes ik thats just a silly assumption, Im just saying that most of these point are objective)

[–]Commercial_Border190Blue Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]KhadgarIsaDreadlordPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And what about the women who see hatred of their gender 24/7, have actual experiences being preyed upon, and then are often dismissed when they have a chance to bring awareness to the topic?

I feel very empathetic towards them. Especially becouse a lot of my boys suffered similar abuse. One of them have been drugged and raped by a woman, one had been charged at with a knife, almost all of them have been verbally abused or violated by one or more partners. Obviuously, since they are male victims with a female perpetrator nobody gave a fuck. There was no police report recorded and the ones that tried to open up about their problems have been ridiculed, shamed, even. So I'm pretty familliar with what it is like to be on the recieving end of this kind of abuse.

Yet it is still an extremely fringe (yet vocal) minority of women who actually hate men as a whole

That's what I thought too. Then I went to university on a female dominated major and that put it into perspective how common it is. Not aimed at me but I heard how they talk about men when they feel comfortable and no level of male locker room talk comes even close to that.

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Of course I sympathize. I know that a lot of women receive unfair treatment from many asshole men, as well as a number of drama queen women.

But I fail to see how this excuses them preemptively treating me the way MAGA bigots treat black people and muslims who haven't done a single thing to anybody.

As a queer man, I know that certain neighborhoods are populated by people who are more likely to cause me harm than, say, a random village in the middle of Switzerland. I'm not an idiot. Statistics don't lie. But does that give me the right to insult them before they've even uttered a word my way?

Yeah, some misogynistic men will never be happy with women no matter what they do. And I'm not afraid to call them out. Why is it suddenly different when it comes to women for whom not even the second coming of Jesus Christ himself would be good enough to deserve baseline human treatment?

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[–]Truthfulsophist[S] [score hidden] 1 year ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Please provide these examples of all these men who raped and killed and abused women, directly and exclusively because of some woman's "misandry"

Misandry makes men think that all women hate them. When they see that women wish for the suicidal rates to go up, and promote violence and abuse against men, and support single-motherhood, and support "daughter and abortion"... Of course they're gonna hate women, and based on misandrists' logic "when men hate, they kill". It's not even my logic, it's misandrists logic, "Misogyny kills women".

"Misandry" doesn't cause men to do any of those things. Men do those things because they want to and can

Of course it doesn't cause them DIRECTLY to kill, the same way misogyny doesn't cause women DIRECTLY to promote violence and abuse against men, but it's the starting point, it causes men to hate, and based on what misandrists say "when men hate, they kill."

[–]fiftypoundpuppyHaunted by ghosts of Dickmas Past ♀ [score hidden] 1 year ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Misandry makes men think that all women hate them. When they see that women wish for the suicidal rates to go up, and promote violence and abuse against men, and support single-motherhood, and support "daughter and abortion"... Of course they're gonna hate women, and based on misandrists' logic "when men hate, they kill". It's not even my logic, it's misandrists logic, "Misogyny kills women".

See though the funny thing is that women who say that actually can point to literal receipts of that pipeline

I asked you for yours and it seems like you came up empty

Of course it doesn't cause them DIRECTLY to kill,

... no, I assure you it does and has. Unless you were dropped here on earth yesterday I'm not sure why you think men's hatred of women has never directly resulted in them killing; abusing; or raping women

the same way misogyny doesn't cause women DIRECTLY to promote violence and abuse against men, but it's the starting point, it causes men to hate, and based on what misandrists say "when men hate, they kill."

Okay but there are actually multiple instances of the former

So I'm asking for your examples of the latter

Or else you're just proving them right

[–]Truthfulsophist[S] [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

See though the funny thing is that women who say that actually can point to literal receipts of that pipeline

I asked you for yours and it seems like you came up empty

Women can point out to men who kill women purely from misogynistic based? They kill because they hate women? They rape because they hate women? They abuse because they hate women? Or is it simply because they lack self-control? Because I don't think a misogynist will come up and say "Hmm, I hate women, I'mma rape some woman today", that's not how it happens. And you're MISSING the point, I'm saying that misandrists make MORE men hate women, they're making more misogynists who WILL kill, and rape, and abuse, I'm talking about the ENDING POINT.

no, I assure you it does and has. Unless you were dropped here on earth yesterday I'm not sure why you think men's hatred of women has never directly resulted in them killing; abusing; or raping women

I was talking about misandry here.

Okay but there are actually multiple instances of the former

So I'm asking for your examples of the latter

Or else you're just proving them right

You're missing the point AGAIN. I'm gonna ask you a question, does misandry make more men hate women?

[–]fiftypoundpuppyHaunted by ghosts of Dickmas Past ♀ [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women can point out to men who kill women purely from misogynistic based? They kill because they hate women? They rape because they hate women? They abuse because they hate women?

Yes

Or is it simply because they lack self-control?

... no, it's because they hate women

Because I don't think a misogynist will come up and say "Hmm, I hate women, I'mma rape some woman today", that's not how it happens.

No, they don't "come up and say" anything. You're right, that's not how that works. They hate women for whatever reasons and they are violent due to that hatred.

Feel free to see the Wiki for misogynistic terrorism, which are just the most well-known examples

Your entire argument is that "misandry" causes more men to "rape, abuse, and kill women"

It's fascinating how you're trying to pretend like misogyny has never caused any of these behaviors, only "misandry"

It would be nice if you could address my points now and stop wasting my time playing dumb

I was talking about misandry here.

Yes, you were trying falsely equivocate misandry causing men to harm women with misogyny harming women, while somehow trying to completely deny that misogyny has ever directly resulted in any direct harm to women

And you're MISSING the point, I'm saying that misandrists make MORE men hate women, they're making more misogynists who WILL kill, and rape, and abuse, I'm talking about the ENDING POINT.

I'm not "missing the point," I don't think your argument has one

Men are accountable for their actions. Period

[–]Major-Platypus2092No Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Truthfulsophist[S] [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think your view of men is pretty sexist. I don't get up in my feelings when I see a random internet woman rant about men. But I'm also not super insecure.

I feel like you've probably watched a lot of videos that tell you what women think of men instead of meeting and befriending women to see for yourself.

Regardless, please don't lump me in with your idea of men. I'm not going to turn into a misogynist if someone hurts my feelings. Jesus that's pathetic.

You should realize that people don't think the way you and I are thinking, I'm not a misogynist either, I was surrounded by good women my whole life, thankfully. Nothing should make someone a misandrist or a misogynist, if something did, then you're more emotional than you're rational, but when you expect ALL people to be as understanding and as rational as you, you're making a big mistake there.

"Misandry is making it worse for women" has big "why do you make me hit you" vibes.

Except what I said what I said is true, not right, there's a difference.

[–]Major-Platypus2092No Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]LaFrescaTrumpetaSelf Esteem Pill Woman (blue) [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

idk i think ima come to his defense on that particular point, i appreciate that people are trying to be vigilant about victim blaming concerns and i do think there’s a difference between someone who’s classically prejudiced and someone who’s reacting to experienced prejudice by inflicting prejudice. but there’s still something to be said for reactive prejudice being harmful and us having a duty to call a spade a spade bc of that reality. i’ve experienced misogyny and homophobia but i don’t think that entitles me to express prejudice against men or straight people, displacing that anger onto any individual of said demographics is just not a healthy way to express pain imo

also i think my flair is super relevant to much of what you said earlier that i agree with about insecurities making people vulnerable to prejudice. i do think you’ve got some above average internal skills that the average person doesn’t have, and i’d fully agree with the take that people shouldn’t let their insecurities open the door to prejudice, but given that reality, i do think we can help by not pouring gas on the fire with negative “all men” takes

[–]Main-Tiger8537Egalitarian Mens Rights Activist Man [score hidden] 1 year ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

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daniel bartlam

Zero evidence his mother abused him, much less due to "misandry"

fred west

Zero independent verification of his claims, and his youngest brother denied any abuse - much less due to "misandry"

jed allen

harold shipman

His mother didn't abuse him, much less due to "misandry"

joachim knychala

Okay so I'm sensing that all you did is browse the series "murderers and their mothers"; noted all the names; then came back and spammed them at me like I'd be so impressed that I wouldn't bother to verify that they are actually examples of what I specifically requested proof of that you specifically claimed

Which, for those of us playing along at home, was that men are abusing, raping, and killing women because their mothers abused them due to misandry

No I don't need for you to go back through the series and spam me more names that have nothing to do with what I asked for. Since you've proven yourself incapable of defending your point, I'm going to go ahead and take the W and call it a wrap

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It's kind of a loaded topic with a lot of fallacies.

"Misandry only hurts men's feelings"

Systematic misandry has lead to the death and prolonged suffering of countless men. When a man is assulted volently by a woman, he has almost nothing to turn to. There are no male shelters, individuals and law enforcement won't take them seriously or will straight up ridicule them. I could go into details further but the bottom line is that society doesn't care about men's suffering the same way it does for women. Men also lead in suicides by a large margin and I think most of those cases could have been prevented if they had access to the same resources and social safety nets we have for women.

But these are the less apparent issues. What creates more misogynists than anything is the constant spew of anti-male rhetoric from all media outlets. Somehow men are the exception from the taboo of attacking people based on their unmutable characteristics. On it's own it's not THAT bad, what sends people over the edge is the blatant hypocrisy and double standard of it. Seeing that women are protected while men get generalised based on the actions of criminals heavily fucks with people's sense of justice.

Misandry is so normalized in today's western society that a lot of feminists will deny it's existence or claim that it does exists but it is harmless. These statements in themselves prove how ignorant these people are to the harmful effects of their behavior.

"Misogynists kill women"

If I wanted to be as bad faith as this argument is I would point out that over half of female muder victims are killed by former or current intimate partners and say something along the lines of "stop having srx with misogynists then".

Instead I want to bring in a global statistic. 8 out of 10 murder victims are men. The reason you barely hear about this imbalance is that female victims recieve a better coverage and treated with a lot more severity. In reality, women are significantly less likely to be killed for any reason than men are. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to be adressed, what I mean is that the overrepresentation may skew the public perception on how often women are killed in the grand scheme of things.

Finally, to add another spicy fact to the pile: A lot of criminals draw the line at hurting women and children, even ones who have no problem violently attacking adult men. We don't know how much that contributes to the statistics or how much it reduces the number of potenntial female victims but we do know that the overwhelming majority of victims of violent crime are male.

To be crystal clear, I hold no resentment towards women for these reasons and I don't intend to unermine their problems either. Most women are awesome and treat men fairly. Misandrists can rot in hell tho, male or female I don't care.

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- Officers also do not take women seriously. (We need reform of the justice system.) (97% of all rapes go unconvicted, and those are the ones reported. Women also are not getting justice and often have their lives completely ruined. Yes, men experience this too, but nowhere near the rate women do.

-Women attempt suicide more than men. Men just use or have access to more violent means (guns).

- Women are also shamed and ridiculed for being assaulted. (Why were you wearing that?) (Congrats, somebody thinks you are attractive) (What did you do to put yourself in that situation?) (You deserved it)

- I have found women are much kinder to male victims than men are to all victims. (still does not excuse that there is a culture of shame over empathy on both sides. However, this is still a gendered issue that requires all of us to fix.

- Your facts ignore a very crucial context. Men are killed more often because of gang-related violence. Not blaming those victims at all, but it is not because people are going around hunting down people with dicks to kill them. When women get coverage, it is often more victim-blaming rather than blaming the perpetrator, so not all coverage is good coverage; it can just normalize what is happening. The reason why the murder of women is significant is that they are not being killed because they are a person (wrong place, wrong time or gang violence), they are being hunted or violently killed by the men they trust most in the world because of their gender. STILL: men need more attention in regards to the violence they face and need more support.

- Also, your point about some criminals drawing the line at killing women. Do you know that in times of conflict, one of the marketing strategies used to gain fighters is to say that they can do whatever they want to women. (sex slaves, child brides, femicide)

Your spicy fact: A lot of rapists (the majority are men) also draw the line at raping men? Idk why you are trying to compare this, like what? Like, yup, some murderers do not like killing women and children. Yeah, and other criminals jump at the chance to get hold of a woman and child. When men are killed, women and children (girls) are taken as sex slaves. Like what? I'm pretty sure it is like 70% of human trafficking victims are women and girls (that is obviously what is recorded), meaning there are probably more, and these girls and women completely lose their lives and are sold into some form of slavery.

Social safety nets women have access to are not as amazing as you think tbh. Yes, we have friends who understand our experiences and support us, but in terms of actual support from institutions is nowhere near effective in getting us any sort of justice or security. I could also throw the same argument back at you that women are largely disadvantaged when it comes to healthcare, job security, etc. Women's bodies were not considerably and effectively studied until the 2010s. And still to this day, it comes nowhere close to how much men are represented in research. which means women are receiving much worse health care and treatment. Women are 34% more likely to die when they have a male surgeon, yet female surgeons are underepresented.

I completely agree that misandry is not good, but it is nowhere near comparable to misogyny. Someone else made this point that men who are suicidal probably see those comments and want to die even more. No doubt, and that is absolutely horrible. But those same comments towards men have been so much more prominent towards women for decades, and still are to this day, not just on social media but in real life. think of the young girls who have grown up seeing that. Think of the girls seeing it right now. It is bad for both and all of us. It is not right at all. Please, tho, do not try to make the violence women experience smaller and less serious than it is to prop up your own. Until men’s rights to vote, be educated, work, receive equal medical care, have autonomy over their own bodies, and not be targeted with violence simply because of their gender (which I would never wish on anyone) are constantly under threat—until men have to constantly prove they are not sub-human or that they deserve basic human rights—there is simply no comparison. Most of the issues you bring up are because of other men and the patriarchy that so many men try to uphold. Yes, women are problematic and do bad things, but the rates are very different across the board.

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So…men kill, rape and abuse women because those women weren’t “nice” enough?

Nice "enough"? Misandrists are not nice AT ALL to men, they're intentionally and unapologetically rude to all men, how about being a decent human being? A human who thinks rationally, not emotionally. It's the same thing when it comes to misandry, "oh, men don't treat us 'nice enough', ok, let's raise the suicidal rates amongst men".

That leads us to “women had better be nice to men otherwise men will kill, rape and abuse them”

Yeah, we see that all the time here when some men threaten us with the dickpocalypse that will also happen because women aren’t “nice” enough to men. Usually includes some kind of suggestion that we can either voluntarily have sex with men we aren’t interested in or we can get repeatedly gang raped by incel marauders when society falls (again because we weren’t “nice” enough to men).

I'm not saying that, I'm saying misandry is provoking those traits in men, while you can simply defend your position and call for women's rights without being a provoking hater. Where will misandry lead you?

Sorry buddy, we aren’t going to pander to misogynistic predators hoping that they will decide that we’ve been nice enough…

Analogy: there's a very dangerous area in your city, area full of gang members who will harm anyone that passes by that area. A "brave" person comes and says "sorry buddy, I'm not going to pander to these gangs, hoping that they will decide that I'm not against them" and calls other people to pass by that area even tho they're outnumbered and much weaker, and their intention is NOT to fight those gangs away, their intention is just to "pay them back" and show them they're brave. We can both expect the results of this analogy. That's not how problems get solved.

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So stop complaining when women avoid men en masse (who per your example are analogous to gang members who will harm anyone who passes by). Stop expecting women to treat those animals as human beings deserving of respect and consideration.

Problem is, misandrists hate ALL men, even if they're not 'animals'. Is a man who hasn't done anything bad to a woman in his life not deserving of decent human treatment?

If a man can be “provoked” by some women’s verbal dislike, into abuse, rape and murder, lack of provocation wouldn’t have stopped him.

The verbal abuse is the starting point of misogyny, and the hate will escalate as the years pass by.

If men’s violence towards women is that close to the surface, they shouldn’t be allowed to walk among us. They definitely shouldn’t be allowed to be in positions of power, authority or responsibility because clearly they are barely human.

Most criminals are men, most men are NOT criminals.

Tell you what, perhaps women would be less likely to dislike men if they stopped abusing, raping, killing and subjugating women and children. Maybe start there.

Agreed, but you can't escalate and de-escalate misogyny at the same time.

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To be fair though, I think the general feeling is the idea that women hate what men represent. And like, this can be the case with men who hate women too. I’ve definitely met men that hate women and everything women stand for except they love their wife very much. I wouldn’t feel too good about the idea of a racist guy in a loving relationship with a black woman either tbh. So I get it. It probably isn’t much of a relief to hear that women resent men, but if you make a friend, she probably won’t resent YOU.

I think the impasse is that a lot of men are like, ‘stop hating men!’ and women are like, ‘change what men represent!’. And as a woman that sounds reasonable because asking people to stop raping you isn’t exactly a crazy request but as a man it just feels like you somehow have to prove that you’re different or better than other men. And it isn’t a crazy request to not have to feel that way either. Not that I think most women actually do feel that way – but that doesn’t matter so much if they’re saying and joking around that they do.

But imo most women are also thinking, well, when have men ever listened to us? They’re obviously not gonna change. So idk I understand what some of the guys on this sub are asking for and I personally am willing to give that to them. But at the same time I would also like to see that men want to help fix each other, you know? Because there are things men can do (that women can’t) and SHOULD do for themselves and each other to mitigate this epidemic of sexual violence. And to women, the principle of the thing feels a lot less important than the reality of what is actually happening to us every day.

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Yeah but women aren’t causing men to kill themselves 😭 people kill themselves because they haven’t been taught healthy ways of dealing with shit. More men killing themselves is not because women are being bitches. It’s because they haven’t been taught how to deal with the pressures of modern masculinity and existing in the world. And because men treat suffering as weakness and don’t actually put effort into helping each other heal.

When women go through a breakup or get depressed cause they’re single, her friends band around her and talk her through it, or eat ice cream with her all night, or cuddle and have a crying session, or take her out and find her someone to distract her. When shit happens to men, their friends slap them on the back and go, ‘that sucks, bro’. Yeah I wonder why men are killing themselves 😭 not a one of you can seek genuine love or comfort from each other platonically

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Well first feminism is anti draft, it wants to disestablish gender roles (like yall wanna be seen as an atm?), also alot of feminist speak up on male rape(following the #metoo movement as an example), like what has the "mens rights" movement done to destigmatize any male experience? I went to their subreddit and its just full of men complaining about women, they dont even do anything to make charities for male rape victims, male dm victims, etc.

While yes in its basic definition it means to give women the equal opportunities that men have, idk how that is women first, men last when throughout history women are usually confined in their homes and forced to give birth and raise babies whether they like it or not. Im pretty sure you wouldnt want to be confined as the provider role by society too, innit?

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What this comment misses is that we are all human beings living in the same world. It’s not about helping one gender at the cost of another. Also, it’s hard for feminism to reach men and even a lot of women because the legal and financial systems support other agendas and men value the opinions of men more than they do women.

But for example: feminism has brought the concept of ‘toxic masculinity’ into the cultural lexicon. This term has been twisted and misunderstood and manipulated by right wing media to cause outrage. But the root of this idea is in dismantling the constructs of masculinity – which are most toxic in their effects on young boys. Stuff like ‘men don’t cry’ or ‘men are big and strong’ or ‘showing weakness is for pussies’ or any kind of socially normalised behaviour that supports these ideas! The goal of this IS to help men. For men to support each other more meaningfully so they could feel less lonely. For men to be more comfortable expressing and working through emotion rather than lashing out physically. For men not to be shamed for being human beings with emotions. For men not to have all these ideas about the ideal masculine physique or career or behaviour pushed onto them.

It also helps women. Because if men were more comfortable and more able to seek support from each other they wouldn’t rely on women for it. Things happen now that are inconvenient or harmful to women that are supposed to help men – like when women stay with their boyfriends because they say they will kill themselves if they leave. NOBODY should be expected to be someone else’s suicide prevention – if men had more support, they would be less likely to kill or harm themselves. They would also be less likely to blame women for their mental health issues or make women responsible for supporting them emotionally. Because they would have more people able to help them in this way.

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For three generations, an increasing number of men said we wanted gender equality and for 60 years now feminists and women in general have made it very clear that you would never, ever, ever let men have gender equality.

What are men supposed to do? Just submit to your misandrist cult? Did you actually think that men would just be okay with "get rid of all double standards that benefit men but keep all double standards that benefit women"? If feminists didn't want guys like Andrew Tate then you shouldn't have fought so hard against the men who wanted equality. And even Tate's misogyny is less than the average feminist's misandry. Tate still thinks women should keep some of their traditional privileges, like being the more protected sex. While feminists want to get rid of all male privileges while keeping all of their traditional female privilege and adding more privilege on top of that.

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some men oppress some women, i don’t support saying “men oppress women” because that can be interpreted as “all men oppress all women.” i’ll stick to being specific, some men oppress some women, society in general values men and masculinity more than women and femininity, that includes values held by misogynistic women, that includes areas in my life where i may have implicit biases to overvalue men and masculinity that i want to check myself on.

ah yes thank you i left out the t in can’t lol whoops. i’m saying that if you take us back a thousand years and put women in men’s bodies and men in women’s bodies, i’d consider it a guarantee that the first group is going to oppress the second group. a lot of my take is informed by my background in psych and having 3 PhD psychs in my immediate family, everything suggests to me that men and women are far more similar psychologically than different, so that’s why i do not believe that women are immune to the things that make a person an oppressor. “hurt people hurt people,” ego injuries, insecure attachment styles, prejudice and hatred, i believe these are human vulnerabilities that neither gender has a monopoly on

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This is an idiotic take. Men are not a monolith and neither are women. White people pioneered slavery and colonialism and created many of the wounds of racism that are felt today. This doesn’t mean all white people or even most white people are evil racists. It just means that white people (being the ones who created and are largely in control of our society) have a significant part to play in dismantling that system.

It’s literally the same thing with men and women. You are not all men. You (hopefully) wouldn’t identify with a rapist down the street any more than I would identify with of those TikTok tradwives. Obviously you could call rapists evil – I don’t believe this is a particularly helpful or useful label to use but I think most people would agree that that is true. And yes, some men do shitty things to perpetuate the patriarchal system we are living under. But it’s not like any one man is responsible for the entire existence of female oppression. It’s not your FAULT – it’s just that the way our society is set up means that men are the ones positioned to be able to help dismantle the patriarchy. Acting in accordance with a pre-established system isn’t something people tend to think about and it doesn’t necessarily make you evil. But being aware of that system and actively resisting it is what you should be doing because it helps everyone.

And women get touchy about it because our lives are being threatened! Same as the white people example above – white people are the ones that are most effective in stopping racist shit because it’s generally white people perpetuating racial violence and injustice and they can reach spaces that poc can’t. And be mindful of their own behaviour.

And the patriarchy does hurt men too 😭 give me any instance of male oppression and I’ll tell you how the patriarchy has created it

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It gives off the vibes of "why do you make me so angry I have to hit you?"

It's more of a "talk shit get hit" message.

Part of living in society is exercising the restraint to not provoke other people needlessly. And that comes with the opposite expectation of others not to provoke you.

You're not outside of this dynamic, you're in it. Because you're an adult. And you don't live in a world without consequences. If you make enemies, those enemies are going to want to hurt you.

It's an A>B>C progression.

If you can't behave and get along with people, then you should at least get away from them.

If you don't treat people well and you don't give them space, I'm not going to act surprised when it blows up in your face.

You don't have a blank cheque to piss people off and insult to their faces without backlash. Your emotional expression will turn into physical altercations of some kind at some point.

Society is not your ex boyfriend. And it suffers you and everyone else only up to a point.

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I have not "twisted" anything. The reality is that men are not in fear of their lives from women to any great numbers. And men here who like to bring up this example as you are doing only for the purpose of finding something to attack women on because they are not interested in being bang maid breeders for men.

I have seen men who are mistreated by women. And it is indeed a sad situation. They have mental issues that keep them from leaving. Most of them like this man could leave. Unlike women who are often actually trapped and unable to defend themselves.

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Search results: Silverman had been going through a period of intense personal stress lately – his death came just one day after he packed up his recently sold home. Just last month, he’d closed the shelter because he could no longer afford to maintain it. He had said he was struggling to keep up with his heat and grocery bills.

In his dogged efforts to help men and to raise public awareness, Silverman worked to remove the stigma that can often prevent men from speaking out because of pride and fear and misunderstanding. Yet where Silverman came up short was in perpetuating the Men’s Rights movement’s fiction that there’s any gender equity as far as violence and victims. The Calgary Herald recalled, in its coverage of his death, Silverman’s oft-repeated insistence that “men are about as likely as women to say they have been the victims of domestic abuse.”

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oh gotcha no worries, ima be honest i have a similar experience but with seeing both genders not challenge sexism, but im the gender swapped version of you in terms of arguing with people of my gender against harmful toxic sexist shit they say, you sound like someone who’s convos i’d love to come across cuz i’m too tired to argue over the 19th n shit these days 😂😭 from one person to another i really appreciate you for that, and i’m sorry you have to see toxic misandry from women when you’re the type to go to bat for us against full blown misogynists. i really do think there are more women like me who cringe at that shit but they don’t tend to be terminally online like me lol but i do see hurt people hurting people on here every day, i try to remind myself that that’s what’s behind most of the misogyny/misandry/racism/homophobia etc i see

[–]Disastrous-Sound-694Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Vague claims about "misandrists" holding power or "society siding with women" don’t hold up without examples or evidence.

If men truly lacked power, they wouldn’t still dominate politics, businesses, tech, finance, media ownership, and military influence. And when a man and woman have a disagreement (especially in legal contexts like custody battles or workplace disputes) the outcomes are far more nuanced than “society sides with women.”

And who defines what's socially acceptable? That’s influenced by media, corporations, public sentiment, and yes (sometimes feminist movements.) But claiming women control morality is a stretch when women still face backlash just for speaking up, aging, or existing outside the male gaze.

So again... what power are you talking about? Moral influence? Economic? Political? Be more clear please.

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So, if you were reading the full response to the study I qouted, and not reacting off of emotion (I know that what you did, based on your response), I specifically stated that they are graded harsher and given less acceptable grades for "similar" and sometimes even "better" performance than girls. Meaning that even when they perform as good as the girls do, they were graded harsher. This shows in subjects like math and science. Boys and girls were asked to defend their answers, the girls were given better grades for simpler responses while boys were given harsher grades for similar responses. In similar retrospect to black students during integration, where black students were graded much harsher than white students despite similar performance.

If you read the second part instead of just responding out of emotions, you'd realize that I stated that boys were punished for protecting themselves from female students' aggression. Again, in similar retrospect to black students where they were often expelled for fighting back against female students.

That is not organized at all. The fact that you associate boys actions with being "unorganized" and girls actions with being "organized" shows that you are full of half-witted ideas.

https://www.frontiersin.org/news/2018/05/02/psychology-playful-boys-gender-differences-children-education/

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[–]Disastrous-Sound-694Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude, you're shifting the argument now. First, you said misandrists "maintain power by playing the victim," but now you're talking about individual well-being metrics among average men and women. Those are different conversations.

If you're saying most men are worse off materially or emotionally, I agree there's an important conversation to have about how men are struggling. But that doesn't prove that women (or misandrists, whatever that term means in your argument) hold institutional or systemic power.

You're right. Men make up the majority of the homeless population and prison population. But those aren't because women have power over men. They’re often symptoms of other systems (like class inequality, lack of mental health resources, toxic masculinity, or policies that harm both genders in different ways.)

Meanwhile, women still earn less on average, experience higher rates of domestic violence and sexual assault, are underrepresented.

So again, if you're talking about social power, be more specific please because “men are struggling” ≠ “women have power.”

[–]gslzhytvrq1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes it does. Unless you believe men are inherently inferior and lazy compared to women, then you must believe it's society that has led to men being much worse off than women. It has to be either one.

Misandry is prevalent and constant. Even the existence of the phrase toxic masculinity is misandry because if we were talking about women, we would call it internalized misogyny but because we demonize men first and ask questions later, we must blame them for their faults by default with hate speech like that term.

Women only earn less when they start having babies. Young women in their 20s outearn their male peers. Women do not experience higher rates of domestic violence and sexual assault unless you're a feminist sheep who believes the numbers from academia which has been infested by feminist ideology. Those studies have the same logic as police departments investigating themselves and finding no wrongdoing. No duh that the people invested in brainwashing society into believing women are forever perpetual victims would twist the numbers to make sure they are.

[–]Disastrous-Sound-6943 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Misandry isn't systemic just because you're uncomfortable with terms like "toxic masculinity." That phrase doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic, just that certain norms (like repressing emotion, or using violence to solve problems) are harmful to men and women. Calling that misandry is like saying calling out racism is anti-white.

As for your take on sexual violence and wage gaps. you’re just parroting talking points that have been debunked. The idea that young women outearn men is only true in a few urban areas and only temporarily. And your denial of the sexual violence statistics is on brand of you. You are a man after all. You're essentially saying, “I don’t believe the data unless it fits my narrative,” typical man.

You can care about men struggling without pretending that women are running the world. That’s the point I keep coming back to. What power do woman hold over men?

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You don’t get to oppress people and then demand gratitude when you finally loosen the leash.

No one demanded gratitude. Women were never going to give it, anyway. They’re too spiteful and petty to acknowledge or commend a noble act.

Men did the right thing, at no benefit and considerable detriment to themselves. Women would never have done the same, because women, unlike men, have no character. As evidenced by their current attitude toward men’s problems as being “not women’s problems to solve.”

Men have see that you are not their equal, in mind, body, or spirit. And now you will see things like Roe v Wade go bye-bye.

The 19th Amendment wasn’t a gift lol how ignorant are you? it was the result of relentless protesting by women. Did white men also "graciously" pass the 16th Amendment?

More men supported the 19th amendment than women. And even if they didn’t, it would not have passed without men drafting it and voting on it. You are simply wrong.

You want to call that “overcoming nothing”? Tell that to the women who were arrested, beaten, and publicly shamed for daring to ask for a voice. If that’s ignorance, it’s not mine.

Susan B Anthony was treated very nicely by the legal system, and was in fact going to be let off with a slap on the wrist because she was a woman, until she demanded to be punished just as harshly as a man would, in the name of equality.

Again, willful ignorance.

[–]Disastrous-Sound-6941 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ah, there it is the unmasked bitterness. You say men did the right thing “at no benefit to themselves,” yet you’re here seething that women weren’t grateful enough for it.

And calling women “spiteful and petty” while complaining they don’t care about your problems is rich. You can’t have it both ways dehumanize women, then whine that they’re not emotionally invested in your struggles.

You say men had to write and vote on the 19th Amendment. yes, obviously. That’s how a system designed by and for men works. When you monopolize the power, of course any change requires you to open the door. That doesn’t make you a hero it just proves how long you kept the door shut.

And your Susan B. Anthony take? Please. A woman being “treated nicely” by the legal system is the exception, not the rule. You conveniently ignore the beatings, imprisonment, and public humiliation other suffragists endured but I’m not surprised. You only acknowledge history when it flatters your narrative.

And if your idea of justice is Roe v. Wade being overturned just to punish women for not kissing the ring, then you’ve made your motives crystal clear. So thanks for confirming everything I already knew. (Also, roe v wade being overturned didn't stop abortion. Kinda like your lame trash eating law lol. It was never going to stop abortions. It just made it harder for woman to access them.)

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You are delusional. If you are a 20 year old man in the USA right now this very moment, you earn less than your female peers, you're less educated, you have a vastly inferior social network, you're more likely to be homeless or in prison, and you're less likely to eventually own a home. This all comes down to the issue that parents don't equip their boys with the tools to succeed like they do with girls. Most parents are massive misandrists that still operate by "boys are easier than girls" and neglect to raise them.

Stfu about third world countries. My pet peeve is when white women from LA on Twitter try to claim the oppression of women in the Middle East like stfu you don't know anything about oppression. Men get shot in the streets like dogs over there and the women can't even drive yet your main issue is men opening their legs too wide on the subway. You're on two different planets.

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Systematic misandry absolutely does exist.

It's the reason why boys and men are being undervalued in school and given worse grades despite similar performance by female teachers specifically. This screws with boys grades, GPA, and their potential future restricting their job options. This was considered misogyny when done to girls.
It's the reason why violence on boys and men is acceptable. We grow up in a "never hit a woman even in self defence". While I agree to an EXTENT, women have created societal ways of thinking that it means "Free abuse on men". Every social media platform that deals with relationships its the woman assaulting the man and the man dealing with it. This is considered misogyny when done to women.
It's the reason why all notions to include male victims of r4p3 were initially blocked by women's orginizations, with the most notable individuals being Mary Koss, an academic award winning scholar who pushed notions that men can not be victims of r4p3 due to their "societal privileges" (Because apparently if your gender takes up majority of all the world's billionaires than you can't be drugged and taken advantage of). This is misogyny if done to women by men.
It's the reason why men kill themselves everyday due to being forced into bone-weary labor hours to cater to an unfaithful spouse (unfaithfulness in the relationship causes emotional, mental, and psychological trauma) and a child that is not his.
It's the reason why the sexual abuse of men is deemed acceptable on all platforms.
It's the reason why men get locked up simply for defending themselves against female aggressors with society catering to woman as "a victim of abuse".
It's the reason why mandatory military conscription is only for men. "Well it's because men start wars" but your excuse is that patriarchy is male benefit at women's expense, so why isn't there a military conscription for women?
It's the reason why the very JUDICIAL system treats men sub-human in comparison to women as perpetrators.
It's the reason why men in public settings get bashed for their responses to women's actions.
The very system that takes men to jail for "abuse" when the woman was the aggressor was set up by feminists (Ellen Pence), who pushed narratives that men can NOT be victims of abuse and women can NEVER be perpetrators.

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Its not specific to a certain reddit sub, those are just screenshots of examples of posts on Instagram and tik tok. Please point me to where a man has said these sorts of things about women and got thousands of likes for it

"men suffer too" "not enough"

"600,000 men die from suicide a year, ok not enough"

"2 every minutes... oh no anyways"

"he was asking for it" "i hope he dies and she gets away with it" "As long as the victim is a man I am glad" (in response to a women setting a man on fire for making a misogynistic remark)

"A girl shoots her boyfriend 23 times in the chest for liking another girls instagram post" the comments: "He is lucky it wasn't 24!" " as she should" "understandable"

These are all from the links I posted. Even if the likes are inflated, there's still a lot of real people writing the comments.

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It starts through getting mistreated by women irl and then constant misandry online and then slowly these men start getting radicalized and then they join more extreme echo chambers and then their hate gets stronger and then it reaches a breaking point where they might or might not do some heinous shit out of resentment. All this to say I don’t think the heinous act in question is justified by any means, they should absolutely be punished for it no excuse whatsoever but I’m just saying it’s a long and complicated process how someone even gets to that point in the first place. No one ever just opens Reddit sees one generalization against men and goes bonkers. It’s a slow process and the people it affects the worst are the people who usually lost the genetic lottery not just in a social sense but also in a sense of predisposition to violence or impulsivity.

[–]TotalTravestyNo Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It starts through getting mistreated by women irl and then constant misandry online and then slowly these men start getting radicalized and then they join more extreme echo chambers and then their hate gets stronger and then it reaches a breaking point where they might or might not do some heinous shit out of resentment. All this to say I don’t think the heinous act in question is justified by any means, they should absolutely be punished for it no excuse whatsoever but I’m just saying it’s a long and complicated process how someone even gets to that point in the first place. No one ever just opens Reddit sees one generalization against men and goes bonkers. It’s a slow process and the people it affects the worst are the people who usually lost the genetic lottery not just in a social sense but also in a sense of predisposition to violence or impulsivity.

Yeah, you slipped in a fine appeal to common sense in the middle, but it doesn’t jibe with everything around it. There is no “but,” no explanation to murder, rape and abuse. There’s not an internet comment in the world that should compel someone to rape or kill, meaning that that trying to reconstruct the timeline of the poor widdle violent psychopath is pointless. To hell with him. And trying to lay blame on anyone other than the psychopath, whether directly or indirectly, is cowardice.

Especially since the majority of “misandry” examples out in the wild amount to little more than bickering, counter-trolling, or condemning the actions of a very specific type of man—to wit, the kind who kills, rapes, and abuses. Way to prove their point, rapists and murderers!

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I agree with you, but they’re not really trying to achieve anything. They’re lashing out because they’ve been severely abused and are in pain and terrified. Anger is almost always a cover for hurt or fear. And I would point out that it goes both ways; misogynist men repeatedly damage women and then those women share their experiences with others for safety and commiseration. Which helps create misandrists.

By the time you’re an adult female you’ll already have heard or witnessed dozens of stories of boys and adult men harassing various friends of yours. Even that is not an easy experience to move past, and then if you add to that almost all women experience at least sexual harassment if not outright assault… idk it’s just really not comparable. It’s like complaining about regular jail to a holocaust survivor. Like yeah jail sucks, nobody’s gonna argue that, but wouldn’t you feel kind of ridiculous?

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What, are you dense? You are literally living in modern society with an internet access. Everything around you is the source. Have you looked out of your ivory tower recently?

Well why not. I'll bite. Our modern sense of morality is the sum total of different ideas that originate from religion, ancient philosophy, innate human traits, biology, the evolution of social structures and ongoing social discourse.

Every single philosopher who laid down the foundarion of ethical reasoning in ancient Greece were men. ( Socrates, Artistotle, Plato)

Later on the thinkers who laid the ground work for our modern understanding of morality were also men. (David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Jeremy Bentham, John Mill).

If men weren't moral, their contribution to ethical discourse wouldn't value virtue, the reduction of suffering and protection of kin and similar ideas.

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That would imply men actually take what women say seriously.

Way too many men do take what women say very seriously. That is not a good thing or a bad thing in and of itself. But what's truly bad is that way too many men don't follow-up with the consequences towards those said women.

You chose the bear? No employment for you.

You're a woman and a superintendent in a school? Cool story, how many men work in that school? Less than 50% (routinely less than 20%)? Great, let's call the police, the State auditor, the media and let's also file a court complaint against you personally for instituting a climate of institutionalized misandry.

And on and on like this. If more men were to make sure to inflict personal and direct consequences upon misandrist women, then we'll see a lot less misandry. But then again,... that's hard. Whining on the Internet is easier.

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A performative hypothetical is the exact opposite of protecting yourself. It's feeding a cultural backlash that will certainly come back on women.

I can see it now... President J.D Vance signing the B.E.A.R Bill. Some kind of fucked up "Reproduction Equity" law or some other Handmaid's Tale style madness.

The hate starts in chatrooms and subreddits, then eventually the little 12 year olds who grow up reading the man-haters words they grow up into 18 year olds who vote for reactionaries, and then those 18 year olds grow up into junior congressmen and take this poison into law, into government.

Because instead of arming up, organizing and keeping your mouths shut, you just talked shit until you made too many enemies for you to handle.

This is not helping. I am telling you as a man. If you think they're actually worse than a bear, stop poking them. It's a goddamn psy-op to stop men and women from cooperating.

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Surveys which have asked women the question in the infamous bear meme---as opposed to street interviews on TikTok---have about 1/3 women older than age 30 "choosing the bear" and younger women (i.e. "Gen Z women") "choosing the bear" at slightly higher than a 50% rate.

That would suggest that the younger generation of women are either more fearful of men (or at least believe that the "right answer" is to say that they are fearful of men).

In other words, the women who are more socialized to be afraid, are indeed, more afraid, despite having grown up in a society in which there is less* to be afraid of ....

We see this in other areas as well. Most Millennial parents are far, far less likely to leave their children unsupervised at a playground or to let them walk about a neighborhood---even though crime was much higher in the 80s and 90s when they were children, and the same things were perceived as mostly safe.

We are much, much more cognizant of the dangers in the world than we were 30-40+ years ago, even though in many ways the world is less dangerous.

(*LESS not NOTHING ... )

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Hated men become misogynists.

Loved men become misogynists: no mother raises a son with the hopes that he'll hate women. Muhammed's mother likely didn't expect he'd go on to rape a child and grow a religion about locking women in the home and beating them for showing their hair. That same child and every other wife he had gave in to him and loved him. Virtually all of the male school shooters openly hated women, and plenty of them had loving female family members. No woman who is murdered by her male partner believed he was "one of the bad ones".

Phobia of men does turn normal men bad, sure, but lacking phobia of men makes you vulnerable to the men who are already bad, and men don't require misandry to turn bad.

At the end of the day, the change has to come from men. There is nothing women can do to control men's behaviour.

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[–]Makuta_Servaela2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It changes the rule from "all humans are bipedal," to "most humans are bipedal," doesn't it?

No, because the rule is "Humans are bipedal." Humans are a bipedal species. A disabled human who has lost his individual bipedalism does not change the fact that humans are overall a bipedal species.

That's the trouble with normative claims.

It isn't a trouble with normative claims, it's a trouble with the red herring of your pedanticism.

You are either honestly unable to understand how generalizations work- which I don't mean as an insult- in which case there is no point in having this conversation because we will just be talking past each other, or you are willfully pretending you don't know how generalizations work, in which case there is no point in having this conversation because you're being dishonest.

Either way, I will leave this one. See you around.

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Millions of muslim men that hate women...

I'm not engaging with Islamophobia. It's a weak-minded critique of a caricature of people you don't know and don't live around enough to hold your tongue when generalizing nation's worth of people.

Virtually all of the male school shooters openly hated women, and plenty of them had loving female family members.

Family abuse or neglect is probably the single greatest throughline in all school shooters. Just because you have female family doesn't mean they treat you well.

Dear god, woman. Listen to yourself. Do you think you're the only woman on this earth with a complex against men and is willing to make it known. There are little boys hearing some version of this same speech you've given me, and that is their experience of women.

There is no love in anything you've said. And there's lots of hate and resentment to go around from women.

Men with actual loving relationships don't shoot up schools.

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Misandry and misogyny are both equally bad. They both contribute to crimes against the opposite sex. Misogynist men rape and kill women. Misandrist women abuse and kill men. Its not a contest on who is worse. 40% of boys sexually abused are done so by women. 1 in 4 girls under 12 are sexually assaulted or abused....around 14%-20% of that by other women. 1 in 6 boys under 12 are sexually abused or assaulted...60% by men, 40% by women. These are true about adults as well. (1 in 6 men and 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted). Women are victims of domestic violence more by men, but men are more likely to be seriously injured or killed by women in DV cases. Men are more likely to be murdered or physically assaulted in general. Men are more likely to be raped in prison, women are more likely to be raped outside prison. Boys are more likely to be sexually assaulted in juvenile prisons. (Usually by women). Girls are more likely to be victims of sexual abuse and boys are more likely to be victims of physical abuse...both by men and women. Women physically abuse boys more than girls. Both sexes of all ages are equally as likely to be victims of verbal and emotional abuse. Boys are more likely to be sexually assaulted in school or church related activities. (Boy Scouts, Catholic Church). Girls are more likely to be sexually abused by family in the home. Anyway...there are bad women and bad men. There are men, boys, women and girls that are victims of crimes. Instead of making it a competition on who has it worse, we should be working together to prevent these things.

Sources include but are not limited to 1in6.org, RAINN.org, AfterSilence.org, MaleSurvivor.org.

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I can’t find ANY source that supports your assertion that men aren’t appropriately grateful more likely to be seriously injured or killed in a DV situation than women. All available data says exactly the opposite.

More than half of female homicide victims are killed by a current or former male intimate partner. One in three U.S. women experience physical violence, sexual violence, and/or stalking by a current or former intimate partner over the course of their lifetimes.

Intimate partner violence disproportionately affects women, leading to higher rates of serious injury and death compared to men.

Furthermore, IPV is a leading cause of injury among women, with a significant number experiencing physical injury and mental health issues as a result.

Females are five times more likely to be murdered by an intimate partner than males.

Approximately 45% of women who have experienced IPV in the past five years report physical injury, and IPV is associated with various injuries like fractures, traumatic brain injuries, and musculoskeletal injuries.

Homicide is a leading cause of death during pregnancy and postpartum for women, often stemming from IPV

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Ok, thank you for the clarification. Personally, I don’t believe this premise warrants serious analysis because it’s not a legitimate argument. I don’t consider misandry to be a real or substantive phenomenon. I think when people like me speak in deterministic terms about how awful men are, they’re usually expressing simplistic frustration rather than actual prejudice. I am a man myself after all. I think those who genuinely harbor prejudice against men are few, lack influence, aren’t particularly thoughtful, and may be doing it out of the same frustration misogynists feel from their perceived persecution. But misogynists cling to their sense of persecution and actively seek out any trace of anti-male sentiment online, so it's impossible to expect all anti-misogynists to behave acceptably enough for misogynists. Nor would it matter because misogyny long predates this silly notion of "misandry" and will sustain itself long after it.

I think conflating systemic, pervasive misogyny with the vague and ineffectual concept of "misandry" legitimizes this imagined persecution. It reinforces the delusion that misogynists are somehow victims. Breaking the cycle of abuse means rejecting their narrative and insisting on reality: men, as a class, have been privileged and society, slowly and imperfectly, is working toward greater gender equity.

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Male disposability, the empathy gap, emotional repression, pressure to be providers, these aren’t the results of feminism. They’re exactly what patriarchy looks like. A system that values men primarily for what they can produce, or endure. Not who they are. Feminists have been calling this out for decades.

You say, “no one gives a fuck about men.” That’s a serious problem. So why attack the one movement that actually critiques the societal structures that devalue everyone who doesn’t conform to traditional gender roles, including men?

Feminism doesn’t say “men are trash.” It says toxic gender norms are trash. It doesn’t say “women good, men bad.” It says power imbalances hurt everyone differently.

You can reject feminism all day, but the actual philosophy at its core is about equality. And if you’re pointing to male suffering as proof men are more oppressed, then again, you’re just proving that gender-based systems of power do exist. You’re just calling it something else.

So no, feminism isn’t the enemy. It’s the only social movement that’s even tried to address the full picture, including the ways patriarchy hurts men.

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Feminism and the "patriarchy" (what I call gender roles) influence these things but they are not the root cause. Male disposability is our biological instinct. Both men and women have a biological instinct to care for women more than men. If we lived in a just egalitarian society, we would take active measures to reduce our implicit bias against men like blatant favoritism towards them to counteract this bias.

Feminists are no different than those old school patriarchs. Feminists are primarily women. Women are biologically prone to value men primarily for what they can produce or endure because women can get pregnant and they want men who can protect them in their most vulnerability. This is your basic instinct and how women justify their hypergamy in dating standards.

Because feminism isn't about freeing men. Whatever benefit men get from feminism in the same form of trickle down economics is next to nothing compared to the harm feminism does to men in their patriarchy theory.

Feminism says men are trash. Look into patriarchy theory. Men are inherent oppressors therefore they are morally inferior to women.

You can say feminism is about equality all day long but that doesn't make it so.

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You’re masking a lot of personal resentment as “biology.” Claiming that male disposability is just instinct is a lazy way to avoid acknowledging how society chooses to treat men. If we just followed “instinct,” we'd still be living in caves.

You say feminism isn’t about freeing men. But it’s literally the only movement that has ever seriously questioned why boys are told not to cry, why men are expected to die in war, or why fatherhood isn’t valued equally in parenting.

Also, why should feminism be about helping men in the first place? Feminism exists to push women toward the same starting line men have always had. Men are already standing on the platform women are still trying to climb up to. If you think men need their own movement, cool. Go start one. Just don’t hijack the one focused on women.

And no, I’m not a feminist either. Feminism believes in equality between men and women. I don’t. I genuinely believe women are superior to men and I’m not sorry about it.

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[–]Maffioze26M altruistic individualist [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

For one, there are no studies that link misandry as a direct link to more female homicide and SA besides a few one off cases that aren’t enough to create a concrete link,

This proves the opposite of what you think it does. There is no strong empirical evidence that misogyny causes homicides either, as the personal characteristics of the perpetrator are usually a far superior predictor compared to something vague like "misogyny". Most men who kill women in the west are men with personality disorders, addiction problems and anger issues. They don't kill women because they hate women, they kill women because they happen to be straight while also having severe mental health issues and because they are physically stronger.

There is no scientific basis for this at all, but what academica and governments do is assuming that any time a woman is murdered by a man it must have been because of sexist motivations even though this is impossible to prove scientifically. They could just as easily do the same for a man murdered by a woman, but they don't do it because academia itself has a misandry problem in the social science departments.

It proves that misandry doesn't just "hurt feelings" but is a systemic thing. But you'd probably never want to believe it.

[–]frutigeraerolover [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze26M altruistic individualist [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But the thing is there are too many cases of incels or men who do just outright hate women or have a personal vendetta against them causing extreme harm in a way that just dosent compare to men.

This is mostly the result of social media outrage making you think like this.

Don't get me wrong, incels and the manosphere is very toxic and you're right to be concerned about it. But it doesn't really cause a significant amount of women to be murdered.

That doesn't mean they can't harm women, they can and do, but not by most of them doing extreme levels of violence.

But the same applies to misandrists. They might phrase their own beliefs in less unhinged ways but I believe the end result is just as toxic (and it has had more influence over the past few decades so it has actually done more material harm).

I’d be interested to see if their any cases of murder against a man solely because of him being a man, because I have definitely never seen it.

Idk about individual murder, but studies have shown that criminals care less about a male life than a female life, and that during genocides men are often targeted because they are seen as threats. But the reality is that no one is ever killed solely because of their gender, as there are always multiple causes/reasons and its impossible to isolate one.

[–]frutigeraerolover [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]KhadgarIsaDreadlordPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hate to break it to you but if you provoke aggression, you are the aggressor. Don't demonize entire groups of people if you don't want them to turn into fucking demons. It's common sense and causality.

And to be clear, I'm not justifying it, there is no justification to sex based hatred, just explaining the dynamic.

Ultimately misandry is just the other side of the coin for misogyny. Misandrists foundamentally promote the same ideology they claim hate. They call it a reaction to misogyny, in reality it's just selective discrimination just like misogyny. A sexist has no grounds for complaining about sexism aimed at them.

And I'm sure a lot of misandry roots back to personal trauma but I lose my empathy for that if your way of dealing with trauma is waging war on half the population, most of which are people who never hurt anyone.

And yes, the same goes for misogyny, sexists are trash.

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The starting point for your father was hostility. Whether it was the threat of it or the acting on it.

The starting point for men (boys really, cause kids read these posts) is not hostility.

It's confusion, it's fear, it's anxiety, it's sadness. These are not people in a position of power to hurt you, nor do they start out thinking about it.

But if you continue to push people into a cultural corner, they're gonna stop feeling bad about what you say and just treat you like an enemy. You cannot bully people into caring about your needs and respecting your position.

A lot of guys, are even starting or did start out from a position of being on women's side.

That's probably less of the case for the Gen Alphas, but for my generation? That's what we were raised on. We didn't have Andrew Tates, we had male feminists, that equality was a good thing was taken for granted.

But every time you make excuses for bigotry against young men, you put a knife through those ideals. I can't go to a young guy who feels like girls hate him and say honestly that they don't, that it's all in his head. And that's the problem.

You cannot fight the battles of the 1970s on the heads of children, men who are childless, wifeless, who are no one's patriarch and oppress nothing. Many of whom have nothing.

Edit: You feed the beast every time you try to kill it with more condemnation and judgment because that hostility of yours is its fuel.

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In rape statistics; According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Center of Disease Control's NISV,

"Rape criteria is based on whether the perpetrator completed the act of penetration or attempted penetration. (Keep in mind you need a penis to penetrate or something else stick like, which is highly unlikely for a female to do as 3rd party objects do not bring the woman sexual satisfaction like making the victim penetrate her does. 1 in 5 women have reported they've victims of penetration. 1 in 26 for men. However, 1 in 9 men have been made against their will to penetrate a woman.

"Underreporting: Male victims, in particular, are significantly less likely to report these crimes due to shame and fear, making official figures likely underestimates."

https://www.cdc.gov/intimate-partner-violence/about/intimate-partner-violence-sexual-violence-and-stalking-among-men.html

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Hey friend! So if misandry means that women say shit about men and misogyny means that men rape and kill women, misandry is not the problem! You can say misandry hurts men’s feelings. You can also say misogyny hurts women’s feelings. Both of these things are bad.

But let’s be clear. It is NOT women’s fault that they are being raped and killed by misogynistic men. Misandry is a response to misogyny and ONLY a response to misogyny – women say stuff like ‘I hate men’ BECAUSE they’re being assaulted by them. I’m sorry your feelings are hurt. But if a man hurts or assaults or murders a woman because his FEELINGS are hurt, that is HIS issue. We should not be focusing on telling people not to hurt his feelings. That’s life! We should be focusing on how to get men not to respond to that by committing disgusting and violent crimes. This was not the take you thought it was.

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[–]narkahticks1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Systemic power means institutions favoring a group over time. And historically, that’s men. Men held the vote first, owned property first, got access to education first, ran governments, ran corporations, made laws, and defined what “normal” looked like in society. That’s systemic power.

Yes, girls are currently outperforming boys in school. That’s a trend tied to changing gender dynamics and how schools treat discipline and emotional development, not to “privilege.” But guess who still dominates the highest paying and most powerful fields like engineering, tech, finance, and politics? Still men. Women may graduate more, but they’re funneled into lower paying jobs and face barriers to advancement.

The gender pay gap is real. Adjusted for job, hours, and experience, women still earn less. Men are promoted faster, even in women heavy fields.

Men get harsher sentences for the same crimes, true. But that’s not because women are “privileged.” It’s because the system sees women as less threatening, and men as more dangerous, violent, or disposable. That’s patriarchy hurting men. Also? The vast majority of sexual assault victims are women. And while male victims do exist and deserve to be heard, pretending women are “privileged” in rape law is nonsense. The underreporting of male sexual abuse has more to do with stigma, shame, and toxic gender norms than a vast legal conspiracy.

Family courts aren’t “pro-woman,” they’re “pro-primary caregiver.” And in most households, that’s still the mom. When men do fight for custody, they often win or get joint custody. The myth that “men never win” comes more from who chooses to fight than from actual rulings.

Saying “99% of male victims are erased” is a complete fabrication. Male victims of rape are acknowledged in both legal and public discourse more than ever. But again, stigma, not feminism, is the real enemy here. Feminists have been the loudest voices pushing for male survivors to be heard (see: #MenToo). The people who mocked male victims? That’s other men telling the victims that they should have enjoyed it or that they cannot be raped because they are men.

You’re confusing individual hardships men face (which are real) with “systemic misandry.” But those issues, like suicide, incarceration, or custody loss, are rooted in old school patriarchal norms that say men shouldn’t be vulnerable, emotional, or nurturing. Misogyny is systemic. Misandry is mostly online bitterness. One has centuries of institutional backing. The other is a few angry tweets and maybe a bad date.

[–]Financial_Window_9901 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Systemic power means institutions favoring a group over time.

Yes. And historically that's women.

Men held the vote first, owned property first, got access to education first,

Wrong on all counts. WOMEN had the vote first. Only RICH PEOPLE, the Musks and Bezos of their day, had the vote. Men, yes white men too, were not guaranteed the vote until 1965. Anyone who had the money could own property. Men and women both. Historically, its been majority men because men were the ones forced to work outside the home, forced to achieve above all else(or die). And ALL property, no matter when it was purchased, became the property of both wife and husband in marriage. We call it "marital property" now. Women were the ones who had access to education. Men had very little access. Only RICH PEOPLE of both sexes had access to anything above an 8th grade education. Among average people it was ONLY women who got to 8th grade.

made laws, and defined what “normal” looked like in society.

Carrying out the will of someone else is not holding power. When men were tasked with doing the day to day grunt work of establishing laws to meet the desires of their female masters, they had no more power than a financial advisor tasked with making the day to day decisions necessary to meet their client's goals. Women decided society. Women rule society and always have.

The gender pay gap is real. Adjusted for job, hours, and experience, women still earn less.

No. Adjusted for job, hours, and experience women make far more.

Yes, girls are currently outperforming boys in school. That’s a trend tied to changing gender dynamics and how schools treat discipline and emotional development, not to “privilege.”

That's been debunked. It's 100% privilege.

Women may graduate more, but they’re funneled into lower paying jobs and face barriers to advancement.

Again, debunked. Women are funneled to the higher paying jobs, and won't take them. It's not women who face barriers to advancement, its men. Women are given preferential treatment in hiring and advancement.

Family courts aren’t “pro-woman,” they’re “pro-primary caregiver.” And in most households, that’s still the mom. When men do fight for custody, they often win or get joint custody. The myth that “men never win” comes more from who chooses to fight than from actual rulings.

Also debunked. Men win ONLY when they have enough money to outlast the biased courts.

Saying “99% of male victims are erased” is a complete fabrication. Male victims of rape are acknowledged in both legal and public discourse more than ever.

Completely false. The definition REQUIRES that the victim must be penetrated by the perpetrator. Female rapists don't penetrate their male victims. Feminists have been the loudest voices SILENCING male victims. THEY ARE THE PEOPLE MOCKING MALE VICTIMS. It's not other men. Other men know all about being SAed and raped by women and not getting justice. Every man has experienced it.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343253834_The_Myth_of_Pervasive_Misogyny

[–]narkahticks1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Everything you just said isn’t just historically wrong, it’s a blatant, almost laughable attempt to rewrite reality to fit a victim narrative. You’re not uncovering some hidden truth; you’re flipping the script out of insecurity, not evidence.

“Women had the vote first.” Flat out false. In the U.S., only white, landowning men could vote at the founding. Over time, property restrictions were lifted, for men. Universal white male suffrage was largely in place by the 1850s. Women couldn’t legally vote until 1920 (there literally had to be an amendment made saying that they could) and even then, Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, and intimidation kept women from voting for decades longer. This isn’t a gray area. It’s documented U.S. history. Saying women had the vote first is not just wrong, it’s delusional.

“Men didn’t have systemic power, only rich people did.” That’s how systemic power works. Systems have gatekeepers. And those gatekeepers were overwhelmingly male in law, religion, military, finance, and education. Even if class played a role, the rules were written by and for men. Women weren’t rich. Poor men eventually got access. Women didn’t. Not to voting. Not to property. Not to higher education. Not to their own wages. Not even to custody of their own kids. You’re trying to erase patriarchy by pretending “rich vs poor” somehow overrides male vs female. It doesn’t. They intersect. But patriarchal systems always defaulted to giving men the first and final say.

“Women had more access to education.” Nope. Not even close. Most major universities didn’t accept women until the 20th century • Harvard: 1977 • Yale: 1969 • Columbia: 1983 • Oxford: 1920 Before that, women’s education was limited to finishing schools designed to make them better wives, not thinkers or leaders. Meanwhile, men were being trained to run empires, practice law, write constitutions, and lead religious institutions. And even among the working class? Men were sent to apprenticeships or trade schools. Girls were often pulled from school early to care for siblings or prepare for marriage. So no, women weren’t ahead. They were intentionally blocked.

“Men were just carrying out women’s will.” That’s not just laughable, it’s pathetically desperate. You’re describing a world where men created the laws, controlled the land, hoarded the wealth, ran the churches, dictated morality, owned their wives, beat them without consequence, and denied them basic personhood, and trying to spin that into women being in charge? That’s not an argument. That’s historical fan fiction for men who can’t stomach the truth. You’re grasping at this tired myth of the “neck that turns the head” because the reality is too inconvenient. Men weren’t powerless pawns. They were architects of oppression. They didn’t “carry out women’s will”, they built entire systems to silence, control, and contain them. Women couldn’t vote, couldn’t own property after marriage, couldn’t keep their earnings, couldn’t attend most universities, and had zero legal protection from rape or domestic violence, especially by their husbands. Influence isn’t power when you’re legally property. Being able to nag your husband over dinner isn’t the same as holding a seat in Parliament, writing laws, or commanding an army. This idea that men were just suffering under women’s rule is so deeply delusional it would be funny if it weren’t being used to justify actual misogyny and deny systemic oppression. You’re not exposing anything. You’re just flipping the script out of insecurity because equality feels threatening. Men didn’t “serve women.” They served themselves and wrote history to justify it. You’re just cosplaying as the underdog in a system that still bends in your favor.

“Women earn more than men when adjusted.” Again, false. Even when adjusted for hours worked, education, job type, and experience, studies still show a persistent pay gap: Pew Research (2023): Women earn 82 cents for every $1 earned by men. Economic Policy Institute (2022): Controlling for similar roles and qualifications, women still earn 6% to 10% less. For Black and Latina women, the gap is even worse—63 to 75 cents per dollar. Women are also concentrated in lower-paying fields not because they’re lazy, but because society pushes them there, and those fields are undervalued because women dominate them. Meanwhile, men are promoted faster, hired more in leadership, and face fewer interruptions due to caregiving expectations.

“Women are privileged in court.” You’re right that men receive harsher criminal sentences, but not because women are “privileged.” It’s because of how society views masculinity and femininity. The courts see men as more dangerous, more violent, and less deserving of mercy. That’s not misandry, it’s the patriarchy in action.

And in family court, the “bias” isn’t against men, it’s in favor of primary caregivers. That’s usually the mother, because men are still doing far less unpaid childcare. But when men do seek custody, they win it over 60% of the time in contested cases. In most cases who takes custody is decided among the parents themselves rather than the courts. Men file for custody less than 4 percent of the time. The idea that “men never win” is a myth perpetuated by guys who either didn’t fight or didn’t show up prepared. The court doesn’t hand out justice based on chromosomes, it follows patterns of caregiving and involvement. More often than that, that’s the mother.

“The rape definition erases male victims.” Wrong again. In 2012, the FBI’s definition of rape was changed to include all forms of sexual assault, regardless of gender or penetration. That happened because of feminist lobbying and pressure from victim advocacy groups. It’s not feminists mocking male victims. It’s other men. This patriarchic culture is what teaches men they can’t be raped, that it doesn’t “count” if a woman did it, or that they should feel “lucky.” That’s not coming from feminism, that’s coming from the same mindset stemming from patriarchy that you’re defending. Feminist movements have repeatedly advocated for male survivors to be included in the conversation. You’re blaming the only group that’s actually tried to expand the definition of justice.

Nothing you’ve said holds up. You’re taking individual examples of where men suffer (and yes, those issues are real) and pretending they represent a massive anti-male conspiracy. They don’t. They represent a broken system that dehumanizes everyone, and that system has overwhelmingly benefited men at the expense of women for centuries. Misandry exists, sure. But it doesn’t have legal, institutional, or historical power behind it. Misogyny does. That’s the difference between a rude comment and a rigged system.

[–]Financial_Window_9901 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Youre lost. You have ZERO historical basis for anything you're blatheting about.

Women had the vote first.” Flat out false. In the U.S., only white, landowning men could vote at the founding. Over time, property restrictions were lifted, for men. Universal white male suffrage was largely in place by the 1850s. Women couldn’t legally vote until 1920 (there literally had to be an amendment made saying that they could) and even then, Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, and intimidation kept women from voting for decades longer. This isn’t a gray area. It’s documented U.S. history. Saying women had the vote first is not just wrong, it’s delusional.

Again, Wrong. In the U.S. only extremely wealthy people could vote at the founding. This included both men and women. Universal white male suffrage has never existed in the U.S. There is no constitutional guarantee. The very first "not rich" white men who were granted the right to vote, but only at the state level, were former confederate soldiers who were enticed to sign up to fight to preserve slavery in part by the promise of a right to vote.

Youre right. This isnt a Grey area. It's documented history. Your gender studies teacher lied to you.

[–]narkahticks1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Everything you just said is not only wrong, it’s the kind of proudly uninformed drivel that happens when someone gets all their education from Reddit threads and YouTube grifters who think “gender studies” is some kind of threat to Western civilization.

Let’s start with the basics. At the founding of the U.S., voting was restricted to white, landowning men. Period. The idea that “rich women voted too” is pure fantasy. There are zero legal records supporting the claim that women, wealthy or not, had the franchise at that time. You might as well say unicorns had Senate seats. It’s that made up.

You’re right about one thing: voting rights weren’t universally guaranteed in the Constitution. They were granted and expanded state by state, and yes, tied to wealth at first. But here’s what you “forgot”: Poor white men gained the vote long before any woman. By the 1820s and 1830s, well before the Civil War, most states had eliminated property requirements for voting among white men. You don’t need a PhD to verify that. Just basic literacy and the ability to Google something besides conspiracy blogs.

And your little “Confederate soldiers were the first non-rich white voters” line? Laughable. That’s not just historically incorrect, it’s offensively stupid. The Confederacy didn’t even exist until the 1860s. White male suffrage expanded dramatically in the Jacksonian era (1820s-1830s), which is literally decades earlier. The fact that you’re confident while being that wrong is genuinely impressive.

And spare me the “gender studies teacher lied to you” nonsense. This isn’t feminist theory, it’s middle school-level American history. You don’t need to read bell hooks to know that women couldn’t vote, own property after marriage, attend most universities, or escape domestic abuse without legal punishment. That’s not progressive propaganda, that’s well documented law, policy, and court precedent.

The only one lying to you is your favorite YouTube guy in a truck ranting about “female privilege” while blaming women for problems caused by the same patriarchal system you’re desperate to defend.

So no, I’m not lost. You’re just wildly out of your depth, clutching fringe takes, and calling it history. Maybe step away from the manosphere echo chamber, touch a real book, and try again when you’re ready to have a grown up conversation.

[–]Financial_Window_9901 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

“Women had more access to education.” Nope. Not even close. Most major universities didn’t accept women until the 20th century • Harvard: 1977 • Yale: 1969 • Columbia: 1983 • Oxford: 1920 Before that, women’s education was limited to finishing schools designed to make them better wives, not thinkers or leaders. Meanwhile, men were being trained to run empires, practice law, write constitutions, and lead religious institutions. And even among the working class? Men were sent to apprenticeships or trade schools. Girls were often pulled from school early to care for siblings or prepare for marriage. So no, women weren’t ahead. They were intentionally blocked.

Again, you fail. You're taking an extremely small subset of the world's richest men and applying their experience and privilege, granted by their EXTREME WEALTH NOT THEIR GENDER, to average men. Only the extremely rich went to university. It was a world in which only the children of Bezos, Buffet, and the like went to higher education. Men were historically pulled from school by the end of fifth grade to go to work. Girls largely stayed. Girls were empirically farther ahead. Again, history is black and white on this

[–]narkahticks1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You’re clinging to this idea that only a “tiny elite of rich men” had privilege, like gender played no role and the rest of men were just helpless serfs beside the supposedly pampered women. That’s not just wrong, it’s historically illiterate and borderline embarrassing.

Yes, wealth mattered, but gender was foundational. The rules of the game were written by men, for men. And while elite men benefited most, all men benefited structurally from male only citizenship, male only voting, male only military status, male only property rights, and male dominated legal protections.

You keep acting like average men were powerless victims. But even “average” men could: • Own land • Vote (long before women of any class) • Serve in government • Beat their wives legally • Rape their wives legally • Keep wages their wives earned • Testify in court while their wives couldn’t • Control marital property • Inherit estates • Retain full legal custody of children in divorce

Women, even wealthy ones, had none of that. So spare me the “only the 1% had power” routine. You’re just trying to strip gender out of a system that was explicitly gendered by design.

Now let’s talk education, because your take there is laughably backwards. Yes, many working-class boys were pulled from school early to work, but so were girls. And unlike the boys, girls were rarely sent back. You want to know what happened to girls during that same period? They were often: • Denied access to secondary or higher education • Educated in domestic skills instead of math or science • Punished for being “too ambitious” • Forced into early marriage and childrearing • Legally excluded from most professions even with an education

And while you’re out here pretending girls “largely stayed in school,” coeducation was controversial well into the 1900s, and most universities either barred women outright or segregated them into separate, unequal programs. So no, girls were not “ahead.” They were deliberately sidelined. You’re mistaking modern statistics for historical facts. Yes, in recent decades, girls have outperformed boys in some areas of schooling, because feminism helped them gain access to the very systems they were once excluded from. That’s not evidence of historical female dominance, it’s proof they had to fight to even get in the door.

Bottom line? Your argument boils down to this weird “Bezos or bust” logic, like only billionaires had privilege, and every other man was just some helpless peasant crushed under the heel of an all powerful 5th grade girl. It’s absurd. The world wasn’t rigged by a tiny rich club. It was rigged by patriarchy, and all men, rich or poor, benefited from it in ways women simply couldn’t.

So yes, history is black and white on this, you just keep coloring outside the lines with crayons handed to you by failed YouTubers and ragebait podcasters. You’re not citing facts, you’re regurgitating recycled red pill nonsense dressed up as revisionist history.

Crack open an actual history book, not a manifesto disguised as a memoir by some guy who thinks feminism is the reason his ex blocked him in 2012. You’re not uncovering hidden truths. You’re parroting intellectual junk food spoon fed to bitter men looking for someone, anyone, to blame for their mediocrity.

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[–]narkahticks1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That’s just pure fiction. The FBI’s definition of rape was expanded in 2012 to explicitly include male victims. Before that, the definition was narrower and focused only on women. Feminists and survivor organizations fought to modernize it so that any non consensual penetration, regardless of gender, would be recognized as rape. That was a step forward for everyone, including male survivors.

So no, feminists didn’t “spend billions” to exclude men. That’s just a conspiracy theory. The only people still mocking male victims are the ones too busy blaming women to actually support survivors. You’re not helping men, you’re using them as a rhetorical shield to punch down on women.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/resource-pages/rape-addendum

“In 2013, the Summary UCR definition of rape was changed to “penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” The new definition updated the 80-year-old historical definition of rape which was “carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” Effectively, the revised definition expands rape to include both male and female victims and offenders, and reflects the various forms of sexual penetration understood to be rape, especially nonconsenting acts of sodomy, and sexual assaults with objects.”

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I don’t know where this stat comes from. But I would be inclined to agree that men who lack male role models in their lives tend to seek male role models elsewhere. And these men tend to lead them down darker paths. I would also say this is true for men with emotionally distant or uninvolved fathers. Or repressed or abusive fathers. Because they don’t have anyone to model for them a healthy way to be a man. I literally have 2 male cousins whose father is a distant and emotionally/verbally abusive piece of shit and I see how desperate they are for a male role model because they look to my dad and my uncle. And my dad knows this so he tries his best to have difficult conversations with them so he can teach them important things that they’re not going to learn from their dad because he doesn’t want them to try and find it online and get sucked in.

Mothers can’t understand everything just because they’re mothers. There are things a guy just doesn’t want to go to his mother for. I can guarantee you if I didn’t have a mother I definitely wouldn’t be talking to my father about body image or weight loss or romance books or fashion. I don’t know what the equivalent topics are for men but I’m sure they exist. A girl who grows up watching her mom criticise her appearance in the mirror all the time is going to internalise that because she instinctively looks to her mother as a female role model in certain areas. It doesn’t matter how comfortable her father is in his body because she doesn’t relate to that. A boy who never has man show him that it’s okay to cry is going to internalise the message that the rest of society sends (which is that it isn’t). It doesn’t matter how emotionally expressive or encouraging his mother is – it’s not enough to tell children things. You have to SHOW them.

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I’m just saying that the extension of that attitude applies to prison too. Like by deciding that some people are not worthy of your empathy and compassion you are effectively saying ‘these people are not like me’ and creating this illusion of separation. When in reality we are all just the same as each other and all of our issues are everyone’s issues. So extending your empathy and compassion to everyone – not that you have to do it all the time or never feel anger or hate or resentment, but being willing to extend everyone empathy as a fellow human being – is the first step in actually creating a better society.

Right now there are all these false divisions. Men don’t want to deal with ‘female problems’ so they wonder why they’re being taxed for tampons. Women don’t want to deal with ‘male problems’ so they say they don’t care about men’s mental health – which, to be clear, no one’s mental health is anyone individual’s RESPONSIBILITY, and men are more ABLE to effect meaningful change because people need a stable support network and shouldn’t have to rely on being able to seek out a romantic partner for emotional support. Rich people (or any people!) don’t want to pay taxes or set up social welfare to give poor or disabled or OLD or otherwise struggling people ‘handouts’ because it’s not their problem.

But everything is everyone’s problem because we all have to deal with the effects of them. Because people’s actions affect other people, however indirectly. Obviously there is a degree of autonomy everyone has and you shouldn’t be expected to put all of yourself or what you have towards others, but there’s a balance to strike. And by saying ‘these people don’t deserve my empathy’ you are basically committing to fucking over everyone who isn’t ’like you’ for your own gain.

Slavery ended because someone looked at black people and thought, ‘even though everyone tells me slaves are immoral, less evolved animals, I think these people are deserving of my empathy’. Obviously, someone can have human rights without your empathy, but empathy is what fundamentally motivates us to give them to people, and the more okay people are with compartmentalising the world into all these subcategories of people, the more comfortable they will get with doing vile things to them and stripping them of their rights for the sake of their own desires.

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Well yea 100%—but I’ll add that a lot that’s labeled misandry in internet spaces isn’t misandry.

This is the cold hard barrier we keep coming up against again and again.

For example, Anita Sarkeesian doesn’t produce misandrist work, not even a little bit. Yet there are still guys who will want to rip my head off (and will try to do so verbally) for even hinting at that.

It can create more problems to capitulate to someone who is absolutely wrong.

For my money, the truth lies in spaces that are totally disconnected from the web. It doesn’t matter what kind of forum it is. If it’s public then it’s generating an engine that elevates bad ideas to the top of discourse. It’s also much, much harder to “call someone in” on the internet, not just in terms of nuance but in terms of time-scale and controlled environment.

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I would also like to point out the systemic misandry that has taken shape over the years by highlighting relationships.

Men have been told repeatedly that it’s considered sexual assault if they do so much as go to the gym and look in a vague general direction as a woman in the gym, so men don’t want to make an approach anymore.

If they do get into a relationship, he has to consider that she could get bored and decide to cheat on him with any number of guys and be praised for it. While if he does that, it’s considered evil and he can never have a relationship ever again. Generally, cheating is wrong and it shouldn’t be done. But, you cannot praise one while punishing the other for doing the exact same thing. And if they don’t cheat, the guy has to worry about he filing sexual assault charges if she decides to change her mind about her consent after intimacy that she initially consented to.

If they somehow manage to get through all that and marry one another, the next challenge is the court system. Around 70-80% of all divorces are initiated by women with women being awarded child custody in 80% of cases, 97% of all alimony recipients being women, and the home property being awarded to women more frequently than men. So, men have to acknowledge the prospects of a woman who can take everything he owns, his whole family, and most of the money he makes all because of the court system that is rigged against him.

And if the couple tries to avoid divorce by going to couples therapy, that’s already been overtaken by misandrists who take the woman’s side of every argument that is presented. There is no neutral mediation in couples therapy when the whole game is to rig the sessions against the men in the relationships.

Every single avenue of opportunity for men and women to share some common ground has been systemically turned into a misandrist honeypot. Even talking about it is risky because it challenges the power these people have over everything. So, this leaves men with nowhere to seek commonality between themselves and the opposite sex and it manifests into them hating the people who benefit the most from this system (ie: women). If anyone is serious about wanting misogyny to go away, we have to balance society out. We cannot allow a rigged system to continue existing, something needs to change. The courts shouldn’t be stacked so heavily against men. Maybe there shouldn’t be no-fault divorce because maybe fault divorce is a more pragmatic approach to maintaining a coequal existence. Maybe we should believe in innocent until proven guilty applies to all people, regardless of whether they’re a man or a woman. We shouldn’t be so ready to accuse all men of sexual harassment over meaningless things. If we as a whole can do these things in society, maybe there would be a lot less misogyny for women to complain about because men would finally feel somewhat respected.

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[–]mozartrellasticks1 point 11 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh i know what trend u are talking about yeah those dudes didnt have their reps tarnished. It was just a stupid ass trend but it didnt do any damage to them. mean comments on the clock app does not equal systemic discrimination. "Your repugnant and dismissive attitude will only push more men away from your life because all they see when they get to know you is just another man-hating feminist." I dont care LMAO I dont care about pushing men away idgaf what retarded dudes think of me "It’s amazing to read your comment history and see you can’t even find one nice thing to say about men." Why do i owe them niceness? I dont owe them kindness if they act like crybaby manchildren. maybe if they listened to feminists i wouldnt be so mean to them. i dont have to say anything nice about dudes. ur just another reactionary with the same old right wing outrage bait politics. ur barely human to me. "So, go back to sipping box wine with your gaggle of girlfriends who only gossip about each other while saying “YASSS QWEEN!” Anytime you say something to put men down." Wow u have never spoken to a woman in ur life if u think thats all women do. no wonder why women hate u guys. ur misogyny comes out when ur pressed on stuff. go back to living in ur basement where ur mom is hoping to hear a gunshot from one day

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[–]Emergency_Might69951 point 9 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Economy-Cry-53441 point 9 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If the only thing stopping a man from raping, abusing, hating, or denying women basic human rights is every woman needing to act perfectly, kindly, or rationally, then he never respected women in the first place. He never saw them as human beings — only as conditions for his morality. If a handful of women expressing anger online — whether they’re venting, joking, rage-baiting, or even bots — can be used to “justify” a man’s violence or hatred, then he wasn’t corrupted by misandry; he was waiting for permission to reveal his cruelty.

Most women who are raped, groomed, assaulted, degraded, denied rights, or murdered do not seek physical revenge. These harms happen to the majority of women. If the rare reaction from some survivors is online anger — words, not actions — that response is understandable. But if a man sees those online posts and decides that’s his cue to commit violence, that man was never moral; he’s dangerous and belongs behind bars, not in debates about nuance. For centuries, women have been enslaved, denied autonomy, called inferior, and still today, many of us and our friends face harassment, assault, and dehumanization while being forced to defend our basic humanity. If you lived under that weight, don’t tell me you wouldn’t be furious. If you, your father, grandfather, sons, and every single guy you have ever interacted with had been raped, stalked, groomed, and denied access to basic things by women, you would be furious. That is my life and the lives of every woman I know, and it is so much worse across the world. But men have not, so why does that justify them blatantly saying they hate women online? Why do they get to kill us? Because that happens as well and has been happening in real life since recorded history. That anger is not the problem — the ongoing violence and lack of accountability are.

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[–]KhadgarIsaDreadlord1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Misandry creates MORE misogynists.

Comments

1 Male domestic violence shelters and any attempt to recognize male victims of female perpetrators was shot down by mainstream feminists who portrayed belligerence (aggressive and even warlike behavior). We've seen this for Erin Pizzey, Stanley Green, Earl Silverman, Suzanne K. Steinmetz.

1 Male domestic violence shelters and any attempt to recognize male victims of female perpetrators was shot down by mainstream feminists who portrayed belligerence (aggressive and even warlike behavior). We've seen this for Erin Pizzey, Stanley Green, Earl Silverman, Suzanne K. Steinmetz.

Misogyny creates misandry.

Title	Misandry creates MORE misogynists.
Author	Truthfulsophist
Upvotes	326
Comments	1284
Date	July 22, 2025 10:29 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1m6s93h/misandry_creates_more_misogynists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/misandry-creates-more-misogynists.1557826 https://theredarchive.com/post/1557826