I implied social media extends what was already been used by people. The same game you apply through a swipe and not goin through a party. You still choose the people you find attractive and you still try to get with them.

Women still marry the beta for what he can provide and it is still for some men the only way to get a woman. Losers that never got laid or married existed just the same, you just didn't know about them because they did not go on social media to complain about it. People quietly accepted them and that's it.

Human nature has not been changed by OLD but by the resurface of birth control and sexual freedom. Which was already happening when the parents of some posters here were young. It's been almost 70 years in the West since people were not marrying at 20 and we're virgins.

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Having a higher pool does not mean you actually get a higher number of dates.

Never said it did, but higher dating pool is still a higher dating pool if it wasn't relevant you wouldn't have needed to mention it either:

You had to actually go and ask people out instead of having access of unlimited amount. Few resources and less access to people

There is no change is you can't actually get more woman that going to a party

The change isn't that you don't get more women than if you went to party, the change is that you can get women without actually having to physically go to a party.

You keep saying dating hasn't change since the core concept hasn't changed even though a bunch of other things have, Here's an analogy:

If a man wants to be a pilot in the air force he has to go through flight training and that is true whether it's 1940 or 2021. But the criteria to become a pilot in 2021 is vastly different than it was in 1940, why? Because planes changed. They go nearly twice as high, 3 to 4 times as far, almost 5 times, which means pilots need to be trained differently.

A pilot that pays attention and picks up things well is the one that is going to do well regardless of the plane or era, but that doesn't mean that things haven't changed. A person in 1940 couldn't just jump in and successfully fly a modern plane just because they were good at flying planes in the 40s.

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My last spam of the day, maybe :)

It's often brought up that women underrate men's looks.

As someone who thinks the men or at least men here try to 1:1 conflate how women perceive/experience visceral attraction with how men perceive/experience it, I struggle with the conceptions of "looks" around these parts.

I can't stress it enough that women do not know how to "objectively rate" "looks. Hell, based on the replies in my last OP, I'm not convinced men are any good at coalescing around it either.

Women's ratings are "yay/yah" "nah/eh" "ewwww," more or less.

And so when women are asked to "rate a man's looks" it's not ever going to be satisfying for men, who created this whole "Hot Bitch 1-10" scale, to hear.

Women are going to ask themselves:

Are we "rating" a man who has optimized (TRP would say 'looks-maxxed") his raw looks via fitness and/or grooming and/or styling?
Are we "rating" a man who has effectively comported in a way that exudes “presence" or a behavioral seduction in his photos and IRL?

Essentially a woman might rate the following first photo a 4 and the second set of photos a 9 and it’s the same damn guy on the same damn week.

Would Shia LaBeouf choose this photo to place on his Tinder profile or these photos?

A woman might rate the following first photo a 3 and the second photo a 7/8, and again, it's the same guy on the same damn week.

Would Jay Z choose this photo for his Tinder profile or this photo?

"Mood" matters for women. This is why women consume erotica more than men and why the porn women tend to like involves more mood-setting and realistic storyboarding. Essentially women prefer an HBO-level produced show with sex scenes and that's her porn lol.

I don't have the images on hand because it seems OkCupid deleted the original "women rate 80% of men below average" post from their blog, but perhaps the men's photos were simply "blah" and presence-less. And women rate blah as "not sexually attractive."

And so, this is why OLD is a set-up for the midrange-looks guy who doesn't know how to looks-max and convey presence via photos (or IRL).

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. It has nothing to do with taking good photos

Eh. My partner only had one photo of himself on tinder. He had his hood up, he looked kinda overweight and a bit meh. I swiped on him because he looked like a metalhead and I liked his profile. When I met him for the first time I was astonished to discover he was slim, dimpled, with an amazing cheeky grin and beautiful eyes. He's gorgeous 🤷 and I can take photos of him that capture that but he is incapable of doing it himself. And he was doing alright for himself on tinder but I can't help but think he would have been doing significantly better if his photo had portrayed him more accurately.

or women have very specific individual preferences

I actually think this is probably more true, much as men on here seem to hate and reject the idea. While there are some guys that might fit more of those individual preferences than others, there generally is a very varied range in what different women find attractive.

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Before my husband and I started dating, when I was just hardcore crushing on him, I used to Facebook stalk him (as one does) and there was a photo of him I was obsessed with. One of our mutual friends was a photographer and used to take her camera to parties and take random candid pics of people. She got this photo of him talking to another friend and there wasn't anything special about the photo, clearly neither guy in it knew it was being taken, but they are both laughing hard as something with their eyes closed. My husband's holding a drink and you can see his hand gripping the glass (he has incredibly sexy hands) and his head is tilted back as he laughs. It's SUCH a handsome picture of him, to this day I'm still obsessed with it.

The other day he got a haircut after work and texted me a selfie. It was a buzz cut. A fresh buzzcut really does it for me and I have been known to climb this man like a tree when he gets home with one. But in this selfie he looked like a potato. He took it from that underneath angle that men always inexplicably take selfies from, he's NOT EVEN ACCENTUATING THE HAIRCUT WHICH WAS THE POINT OF THE PICTURE, and he took it in the car in dim light and is making a weird face.

Same guy, two photos. If I were on a dating site and saw the first photo i would have swiped right (or whichever direction means you like them lol). If I saw the second picture I'd think he was ugly. And the first picture is how I see him irl, it's not like there were any "tricks" making him look more attractive. The second picture made him look less attractive than he actually is.

I got into a really baffling argument here the other day where someone said that if women come across unflattering photos on dating apps they need to "compensate" for it by attempting to objectively rate the man's attractiveness by looking past the bad angles/lighting/presentation. Apparently the onus is on women to make these "objective" evaluations and not on the men to present himself better. That's not how literally anything else in life works. If I send a resume on red construction paper with pink Comic Sans font and littered with typos it's not on the potential employer to look past that. Presentation matters!

And I would say if they can't figure it out they should recruit female friends to help them take/select photos for their profiles (a strategy several of my male friends have used successfully) but of course I'm sure they don't have female friends because something something emotional tampon.

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All the blithering in the world about Chad and his premium DNA isn't going to help you.

However, women overrate themselves and believe they can get men, who they have no chance with.

If you really believe that, what is the problem? Whether they can get Chad or not isn't your business because sexually unsuccessful men aren't a viable alternative for Chad either way

And fun fact in pink pill form. Since men made "aiming low for easy sex" a thing, it is very true that the woman an incel is looking down on CAN fuck primitive Chads and YES she probably gets more out of that one evening than months with a man who hates himself and hates women.

I didn't make the rules. You have to many avenues as a man to get everything you want for me to value your outrage. Demonize our sexuality all you like. Its your gender that maintains the dynamics you're not enjoying.

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Update on the chick who didn't want to drop her new FWB's while dating someone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/ns6s61/update_girl_told_me_about_her_fwb_on_our_first/h0l24xf?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

I agree with his assessment, she's either invested more into the FWB than she's leading on or she doesn't see potential from the dates. IME, she's almost always into the FWB's more than she'll let on. In fact, the "date's" could just be a way to get the FWB jealous so he can commit.

"I had something like this and it literally killed me on the inside. It’s very hard to see someone you like knowing they are fucking someone else or multiple people. I had to completely cut contact to heal myself."

Who's that cutting onion's ? It's frightening how emotionally abusive modern women have become. They recklessly use their advantages with no abandon harming innocent men in the process. This sort of thing happens more often than rape but is never talked about since men are the victims.

Chad chaser's, stay in your own lane. If he doesn't commit, accept a soft harem situation or crawl into a deep dark cavern and steer clear of innocent young men.

"You shall not pass!"

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The anon guy she’s sleeping with is the one also carrying on a sexual relationship with a girl who is over invested, but you’re not calling him out. It takes two to tango.

Where did it say he's dating other women?

I think she’s grody too, but did you just compare a guy who is at-most confused/turned off to rape victims?

The guy who said this

"I had something like this and it literally killed me on the inside. It’s very hard to see someone you like knowing they are fucking someone else or multiple people. I had to completely cut contact to heal myself."
and its not like for like but both are victims to different degrees. On experiences primarily physical abuse while the other suffered emotionally.

Women need to be protected as the threat of rape is real but men also need to be protected from the emotional abuses of hypergamous women who employ the dual mating strategy.

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I can't give you a number as to what constitutes a high n count because it's fluid.

As long as "the n count that constitutes slut" is a # men in general or even individual man can't decide on, then I'm not sure why you expect women to care.

Furthermore, as I've been saying, the reason it's "fluid" and "can't be decided upon" is because up until the Sexual Revolution of the 60s, "n count" wasn't a "thing."

It was "virgin" or "ruined woman."

Where "ruined' meant "wahhhh I wasn't the first to defile her noooo fairrrrr wahhhh."

This whole "n count" thing is a giant c*** (rhymes with mope) for virgin obsession.

(SN: Was watching season 2 of Outlander which is set in 1700s Paris/Versailles. One of the society women is raped. The male main character advises his wife not to alert the magistrates or authorities because if anyone finds out she was raped it means she's no longer "an unpenetrated woman" which means her "society" marriage prospects are out the window.)

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Mainstream = utterable in the mainstream sources.

The ones I've seen complain about equally educated men, since women are more likely to go to college

MARRIAGE DECLINE BLAMED ON LACK OF 'ECONOMICALLY ATTRACTIVE' MEN

Are There Not Enough Men Worth Marrying?

Taking an economic approach, the authors argue that there's a fundamental mismatch between what available men in the United States have to offer and what available women in the United States are willing to accept. Maybe, they propose, women aren't getting married because the highly desirable men are taken.

Broke men are hurting American women’s marriage prospects

LACK OF ‘ECONOMICALLY-ATTRACTIVE’ MEN TO BLAME FOR DECLINE IN MARRIAGE RATES, STUDY SUGGESTS

Fewer People Are Getting Married. The Reason Why Is Stunning, According to Science

Most American women hope to marry but current shortages of marriageable men -- men with a stable job and a good income -- make this increasingly difficult, especially in the current gig economy of unstable low-paying service jobs.

complaints about women preferring taller men or having unrealistic physical standards = mIsoGyNiStIc ObjEcTiFiCaTiOn their body their choice

only applies to women becsuse reasona

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There are plenty of right wing/conservative publications such as daily mail, globe and mail, fox, nypost and many others. They might not be most but they're pretty numerous.

And why not? They don't lose their massive readerships in the way they would if they said "preferring female virgins ok" regardless of complaints in the comment section

Because like any product it attracts a specific audience which isn't the majority of the population even if it looks like it. The Independent, for example, is a very popular liberal publication. Last year it had around 19.3 million readers. Now keep in mind that there are 360 million native english speakers and 1.3 billion speakers including non-native ones. The portion of the population that reads it is negligible. The same can be said about other publications and I'd imagine that there's an overlap between all those. In other words, if an opinion is popular in one publication it doesn't mean that it's held or accepted by mosg of the population. Mainstream media isn't that mainstream.

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If we are going the "what do animals do" route then you run into problem of defining pedophilia in animals and comparing it to humans. We have clearly defined sexual maturity in animals but in human societies we shift it to the Age of Consent discussion which is obviously absent in animals, and so in humans sexual maturity =/= age of consent and subsequently different definitions of pedophilia. If we say that gays are ok because there are examples of homosexual animals then you have to somehow justify not comparing animals that reached sexual maturity and started mating to similar behavior in humans.

I'm not advocating normalizing pedophilia, but you have to be very careful when using animals as a way to support your arguments instead of just picking the facts that support your views and ignoring the rest.

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The urban culture OP got me thinking.

The guys here would benefit from these two series I used to watch as a kid:

Martin: The show aired on Fox but can be streamed on BET+. Martin Lawrence is a 5’7 comedic actor of mid range looks. The show centers around his character’s romantic relationship and his friends and his job as a local radio station host. Martin’s character on the show attracts women and friends by “style/grooming maxxing” and “jester maxxing” aka he dresses well smells good hair is always lined up and makes the homies and his gf laugh with his quick wit. I have to say he didn’t really “fitness-max” which feels accurate to how I remember dudes looking. Normal dudes didn’t used to “lift” like that back then. I would throw that into the routine now. Martin’s character did have some status as he was a local DJ/host so all those things help.
ComicView: This was a stand up comedian series that aired on BET prime time and featured people like Martin Lawrence, Chris Tucker, Steve Harvey, Mo’Nique, Lunell, DL Hughley, Sheryl Underwood, Patrice O Neal, Bernie Mac, etc all before they got more mainstream famous. I personally hate stand up in person because I hate when people bomb. I loved this show because they only ever aired the people who didn’t bomb. Anyway this show used to have me cracking up in my room as a kid. And quite frankly I can tell most of “The Red Pill” doctrine was some non-black unfun dude happening upon black comedians and having his mind blown. I think it’s only streaming on some random service called Sling but I’m sure segments exist on YouTube. Check them out!

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I just downvoted your comment.

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Define not appropriate?

It's a wide range of scenarios, but each individual woman decides when it is or is not "appropriate."

And why can't you just flirt with them when appropriate lmfao

Because there are no times when that is the case. When you are not wanted they make it clear that it is not OK to flirt with them. You'd have to be autistic to not be able to understand how that isn't obvious.

I do feel empathetic towards consistently getting rejected, but you have to realize, I'm an attractive man and even i got rejected often when i was single. It's a fact of life of being a man.

You only got rejected? You have it easy, try getting accused of being creepy. Not even in a criminal way, just rumors going around in your social group.

It would be nice if expressing romantic interest in a woman didn't risk seriously harming a man's life, but that's the world we live in.

Deal with it or shut up

Sure, bro. Do you tell rape victims the same thing?

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When you are not wanted they make it clear that it is not OK to flirt with them

I'm sorry. But if you're clearly not wanted, you shouldn't flirt with them. However, everyone is wanted by SOMEBODY. Maybe not even at first. But even the ugliest mfers i know have had gfs. Ugly gfs, but that's OK, that's their level. But an ugly man should not go for a hot girl... And probably average girls are pushing it. Again, probably a harsh truth, but the truth nonetheless.

try getting accused of being creepy.

If you weren't behaving improperly then that's a false accusation and i have sympathy for it.

would be nice if expressing romantic interest in a woman didn't risk seriously harming a man's life

I'm not sure how expressing interest harms a mans life unless again it's something like CEO proposition the Secretary.

And lol. Mfw u compare being told "no" to forcible rape. Come on.

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No, literally the representation of pornography in literature and how it was used - as art, as recruitment tools during war (the French Revolution, in particular), as social commentary, as satire. The way you can watch women’s rights gaining traction even in this sort of literature (Moll Flanders was pretty unique at the time for giving its protagonist a happy ending, for example)

It’s as also interesting putting some things in context, and stripped some of the prudish ideas I had about past eras. The Victorian era was rife with child brothels and opium dens, for example. The Marquis de Sade and Fanny Hill put to rest any thoughts of kinks being a modern phenomenon

It basically de-mystified sex for me in a lot of ways, and allowed me to appreciate how every civilization on earth has used pornography. Sex is a base impulse that unites us all, and it’s been an enduring theme in literature, art, theater, basically everything since the dawn of time

It’s part of why I’m so intensely critical of people who are sex negative. You don’t need to be a furry-embracing sex positive stereotype wearing assless chaps, but you can’t shame a genuine human - I’d even argue animalistic - desire out of people

It’s also why I have zero respect for incels. I understand why they’re frustrated and angry, but I don’t understand being ok with that. How do you just give up and stop trying/bask in your anger?

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Dunno about PMS, but I get irritable during the first day of my period. I think the reason for that is mental exhaustion from constant pain.

On the first day for about 5-6 hours my intestines feel like they are twisting/cramping (something like when you have diarrhea or food poisoning) and you sit on the toilet for more than 10 minutes till you empty your bowels, the intestine also goes "hey you ate a pea? Be ready in about 1-2 minutes to sit in the toiled clutching your belly for 10 minutes", the stomach goes "to puke or not to puke, that is the question", the body goes "oh, it's +25 celcius? Nah, you're gonna shiver".

I think boys should be taught about periods and what women go through during them during sex ed (or if it's like it was in my school: boys went to one classroom and girls to another. The girls were told about periods (was too late for me as I already had them at the time) and boys were told about something else (I assume something to do with their puberty body changes as I haven't asked them what was talked there). And girls should be taught about random boners the boys get, or whatever boys equivalent for a period (a thing that the other sex doesn't experience and would make fun of you for having it) would be.

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This is why we don't have female presidents. Women get irrationally crazy once a month.

Lol, even if that was a thing for any woman having a period, you know menopause exists, right?

There’s plenty of reasons people didn’t want Hillary, but anybody who didn’t want her as President because of “women and periods hurr durr” is too stupid for words. She hasn’t had a period in two decades, dudes. The men on here won’t shut up about women’s “youthful fertility” blah blah… and well, I assumed that meant they knew about the fact that periods stop happening at menopause, but maybe I was mistaken.

Haha, the “woman shouldn’t be President because periods” thing is just so fucking dumb on so many levels. But especially because a whole bunch of the women who would run for President aren’t having periods.

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Remeber when we were kids and love wasnt a cold, rational transaction? When you were a special person and nobody could take that away from you?

...not really? Sure my parents loved me unconditionally because I was THEIR kid, but it's not like people just love random kids and think they're special. I was never led to believe I was special in any way other than "You are my kid and I love you because you're special to ME." Certainly other kids didn't think I was special and deserving of love and friendship just for existing; kids are pretty brutal and tribal. In fact my lifelong best friend became my best friend because she stuck up for me when literally every other kid at daycare was bullying me.

I'm friends with tons of noncomformist people. You've just got to find your tribe. Lots of weirdos out there in weirdo social circles.

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I can’t say I agree. Even when it was “shamed” when she didn’t keep it orderly and to taste, American culture at large didn’t regale housewives with true achievement.

Even the ads were catered to what the man wanted (“Steve loves to come home to a cooked meal provided by Betty in the latest Woolworth’s fashions!”) and some shallow FSM nonsense (“Get the latest Dyson vacuum cleaner - you don’t want to be the only wife in the cul de sac without one!”) that the greater society didn’t acknowledge or respect and that women with any passions or interests outside of “FSM, babies, and trophy wife” never gave a fuck about anyway.

So no. Shaming is not going to heighten that station.

And don’t even get me started on working class wives/mothers. Even more tireless and thankless and none of the trite comforts to match.

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interesting. you must’ve dealt with some pretty nice kids. 2-4 year olds tend to be incredibly difficult to work with, not because feeding them and changing diapers is hard; but dealing with the tantrums and communicating when they’re not able to understand you and aren’t fully speaking yet is what’s difficult, and then having to deal with that x5.

it’s mentally tiring, and physically too if the kids are active or if you have to cook full meals for them or if you have to help potty train them. i’ve dealt with kids who just don’t stop moving all damn day, not even the tv or an ipad can distract them enough to sit still for 10 minutes. kids who throw tantrums over literally any little thing. kids who cry for 5 hours at a time (i’m not kidding). kids who wake up 5 different times in the middle of the night. this isn’t even including the stuff i’ve had to do for special needs kids. the more kids there are, the more work it is.

i’ve had to handle an infant and two small toddlers at once, twins, special needs kids, some older children, infants, and even an entire litter of children. all by myself. can’t say it’s always been easy. some kids are easier than others to deal with.

i think it’s different when you’re dealing with kids you don’t have a familial bond with too. it’s also different when you’re not having to deal with like 6-10 kids, alone, as a teenager. 1 or 2 kids who sit in front of the tv and don’t bother you for much as long as they have snacks, i can see why you’d say that’s easy. add in more variables + not getting to give them back, and i don’t think it’s as easy as you make it seem.

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That’s moving goal posts

... I'm talking about whether you see someone or not. Not whether you see the back of his head for half a second.

Not really, every room is a new batch of people

What club has many rooms? Every club I've been to has a huge room and the toilets. Across many countries.

This is my whole point. The guys not doing it are the ones complaining, like the nerdy dude in that Sex In The 90s episode

But that wasn't my point. My point is how much more profound the effect in the SMP is with OLD/social media . In the club era the man that didn't hit on the chicks (most men) could still meet women from work, from friends, from school etc. Women that had little or no access to that market. Now thats much harder for him. Also, even if the women were hanging out in these places , the bar he had to surpass was much lower simply due to the difference in scale. This also means that these places were more of an option for the average man too.

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m talking about whether you see someone or not. Not whether you see the back of his head for a half second

We can both agree that not seeing the back of someone’s head for a half second doesn’t count

But I really don’t think you understand the dynamics of how those places worked - they were literally a meat market. You walked around for hours, sizing up the merchandise and deciding which prime rump you wanted to take home

In all fairness, those places are wildly out of fashion (even before COVID) so I can’t really expect any of the younger crew here to understand how they very dramatically differed from the current clubs

What club has many rooms?

Many of the mega clubs that were at their peak in that era. I mentioned The Tunnel before, they had multiple rooms with multiple DJs going every night

Again, this is a different type of club than the ones that are “in” now. The entire clubbing culture was different, more predatory, and 100% about hooking up

My point is how much more profound the effect in the SMP is with OLD/social media

Again, I’m going to disagree. Every trend affects the SMP, obviously - but in the analog technology era, those mega clubs were it. That was OLD, and the culture of those clubs is very similar to the culture of OLD. The effect was very similar

Did you see the clip I linked? You don’t have to watch it all, but that was how people met. You couldn’t really get away from club culture back then

And much like the loser in the OLD game, there were losers in the mega club era. Their complaints and gripes are identical

[–]EusticeSymington1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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so I can’t really expect any of the younger crew here to understand how they very dramatically differed from the current clubs

I feel you are just talking about regular clubs and are being dramatic about it.

Many of the mega clubs that were at their peak in that era.

Well,I don't know much about clubs in the US. Anyway, let's assume what you are saying is true and you did see thousands of men. How many times was a woman approached in a night? I somehow doubt it was anywhere near the hundreds of messages she receives now every day.

The effect was very similar

Yes, like I said, the dynamic is similar.... only cranked up to 11.While before the "losers" were the absolute bottom tier men, now it's 80% of them. Like we don't even have to speculate, sexlessness has tripled since the introduction for social media and OLD and it's still accelerating.

[–]peteypete782 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I feel you are just talking about regular clubs and are being dramatic about it

No, I’m talking about that late 90s/very early 00s “meat market” mega club

you did see thousands of men

In all fairness, even I admit that “thousands” reaching your consciousness isn’t likely. A couple/few hundred is more likely in those places

How many times was a woman approached in a night?

Depends on a lot of stuff, but a lot. I’d hazard five times to a dozen times, not including the zillions of men who just tried to dance up on her

I somehow doubt it was anywhere near the hundreds of messages she receives now

Well, in all fairness, how many of those messages are actually genuine and created for her vs how many are cut-and-pastes/cheesy pre-manufactured jokes/dick pics/pickup lines for sex?

Once you peel away the spam, there really aren’t that many genuine approaches (from what my girl friends tell me)

the dynamic is similar

Yeah, we agree on that. That was my point

sexlessness

You know my feeling on that - the definition of “sexless” has changed. I have yet to see that there is any concrete evidence of virginity numbers changing

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Depends on a lot of stuff, but a lot. I’d hazard five times to a dozen times, not including the zillions of men who just tried to dance up on her

And even hambeasts get more messages on OLD every day and they don't even have to leave the toilet seat.

Well, in all fairness, how many of those messages are actually genuine and created for her vs how many are cut-and-pastes/cheesy pre-manufactured jokes/dick pics/pickup lines for sex?

These are genuine messages. If she replies, they'll reply back.

You know my feeling on that - the definition of “sexless” has changed.

Even if for some reason you don't think not getting laid once within a year isn't a big deal, it has still tripled since the introduction of OLD/social media. It's a good measure of how profound the effect of these things was for the SMP.

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

even hambeasts get more messages on OLD every day

Yeah, I’m not arguing with the constant access. I’m actually now wondering about the average hours of access to approaches - I wonder if they’re roughly the same

Like, if she’s only in the club for 5 hours a week, how does that compare on an hourly basis to OLD approaches

These are genuine messages

That’s definitely not true - most women (even young women) have been approached by scammers, spambots, men who may as well be spammers, etc

I’d say “all women” but there are probably a few who haven’t

it has still tripled since the introduction of OLD/social media

Younger millennials and Gen Z are more conservative about sex. You can’t blame it all on OLD when it’s a cultural shift. My fellow slutty young Gen X/older millennial cohorts are raising prudes, somehow

Anyhow, I still say that’s a damn dry spell. Exacerbated by constant internet access/screen obsession moreso than OLD - all socializing is down because of it, it’s not unique to the SMP

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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On the contrary, I think men who are not sexual losers are defining themselves as such because the the definition of “incel” and “sexless” has become so broad that it encompasses dry spells that are normal for every sexually mature adult

Perhaps to you. Maybe your definition of sexless is less than one sexual event every 5 years?

I think you will find a consensus that having sex less than once a year for an Adult is sexual loser status. This might not be true for you and your circle, but it would be for mine yet I see many men who fit the bill.

They aren’t unique, they’re damn common and everyone goes through them. There is no reason for “sexless” and “incel” to include people who fall into these groups

One memory that stands out to me was brunch with some girlfriends back when I was 23-24. We were talking about this one girls dry-spell and her friends were joking that she really needed to get fucked because she was being a bitch all night, she agreed. They couldn't believe it had been almost 3 months since her last fuck.

I laughed and was like "wow that's so sad" meanwhile I'm thinking what would these women think of me? A lot of guys go a year easily and these chicks think 2-3 months is bad. I've had this same experience since then, many young women don't understand what a true dry spell is, it was eye opening at the time because it really hit home how easy sex is for women.

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In my 15 plus years in the workforce from fast food to office white collar, one of the funniest things to me is when dudes find out certain Female coworkers fuck around at work, either literally on site or with the supervisor/boss etc.

The reason why I say this is, IME there are guys who have a stereotype of who that girl is, and when they find out it’s the girl who they put on some massive pedestal it’s shocking to them. It’s like a kid finding out Santa Claus isn’t real. You KNOW the girls I’m talking about, the kinda shy quirky one who they think is some “nice” girl. “Heather is fucking the boss? No way she would NEVER do that”

To quote Kyle from South Park, “YOU DONT EVEN KNOW HEATHER” lol. All YOU KNOW about Heather is the 4 mins a day at the water cooler you spend discussing random pop culture and her always saying “I’m not really seeing anyone right now hehe”. Meanwhile in reality Heather is getting her back blown out by your supervisor to get the weekends off 🤣

[–]ToughAnswers2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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I need some help from my fellow Americans here. /u/TheJim666 seems to have a very ill informed view of American culture and insists that I don’t know what I’m talking about despite being born and raised here.

His contention is that welfare, alimony and child support and lack of financial abortion have a significant impact on the dating market in the west, including America.

While it’s true that the introduction of these things 60 years ago provided a way for women to leave a bad marriage or make ends meet without a husband, American society has adapted and taking these things away now will not result in restoring the 1950s.

Do you think that:

welfare today provides a safety net that makes poor women choose it over dating betas/marriage? (Despite it being temporary, limited and requiring you to have a job and for most people only bringing in a couple hundred dollars a month max)
alimony and child support somehow makes women not want to date betas (I wasn’t really following this one myself - I think he’s saying that the more support a woman has the less likely she is to commit to a beta vs staying single but IDK)
financial abortion would make women stop having premarital sex and marry betas (cause financial abortion would I guess make all the birth control disappear too)

Seems like he is saying that the shit can be put back in the horse and I’m saying it’s too late for that. But he doesn’t ever consider what I’m saying or that I might know more about my own culture than him and just calls me stupid all the time.

So please; Americans only, please weigh in.

[–]angels-fan5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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you can be charged with fraud and taken to court

I defended a couple who were charged with welfare fraud when they failed to report they'd temporarily moved 20 miles across county lines. They had been living in a tent next to the river. The wife's uncle in the county next door had surgery they stayed at his place for three weeks to help him. For that, they got charged with felony welfare fraud. Took me almost six months to get the DA to dismiss the case (they still had to deal with administrative sanctions from the welfare office). Both husband and wife had been model welfare recipients. They had successfully participated in job training programs and worked every job they'd been referred to. They'd lost their prior obs and the house they owned in the 2008 recession. They couldn't take care of their children so they voluntarily placed them with relatives in the Bay Area. Despite the way the DA treated them, a year after their case resolved they were the only people to come forward to testify against a guy who set another homeless person on fire.

[–]Willow-girl3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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SSI pays about $750 a month and recipients are also eligible for all of the usual alphabet-agency benefits. SSDI pays more but you have to have worked for awhile to qualify. Another advantage to SSDI is that you can work and earn quite a bit without losing your benefits, as long as you don't go over the limits and trigger a reevaluation and/or reduction to your check. My third husband drew about $1,200 on SSDI and could earn up to $800 a month without any problems. (This was 20 years ago and the numbers have probably changed since.) SSI doesn't allow you to earn much, like less than $100 before it starts chipping away at your bennies. IME most people on SSI don't bother working unless it's for cash.

Ha,,,,American farmers couldn't operate without a combination of immigrants workers (some legal, some not) and guys drawing SSDI who are available to work for a few months at planting and harvest but have their SSDI checks to fall back on the rest of the year. It's a match made in Heaven!

[–]poppy_blu2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Willow-girl1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And you think $750 a month is enough to support yourself and a child?

Millions of people do it. I saw some stats awhile back (wish I'd bookmarked them) regarding the percentage of households in which a child's SSI check is the family's only income. Where I'm from, entire families cling like barnacles to one member's disability check. And people work out crazy bargains ... like I knew a woman who lost custody of her kid, and her aunt became the kid's foster parent. Then the woman went to live with her aunt, and the aunt had her babysitting her own kid as well as the aunt's kids ... and was paying her out of the money she got from being a foster parent. SMH.

Also you have to keep in mind that when you're drawing benefits, you have your days free to do other things to improve your situation. The Goodwill Outlet here is full of people who are there pretty much every day from open to close. They're buying anything of value and 'flipping' it. You can bet most of those folks are drawing bennies of one sort or another. You don't even have to be double-dipping (earning unreported income) ... there are lots of things you can do to improve your situation without breaking the rules. For instance, grow a big garden and you can eat like a king, even preserve some of the harvest for winter.

Also, your check stretches further without the cost of working. You're not commuting to work; you're not buying as much gas or racking up miles on a vehicle. And old beater car will run forever if you're only putting a couple of thousand miles on it a year. And if you're not working, you don't need "town clothes" or the expensive kind of shoes that will let you be on your feet all day without suffering. If you're female, you don't need as much styling product, makeup, getting your hair cut and/or nails done as often. All of those things cost money that you don't need to spend if you're just chillin' at home.

Incidentally, economics have been stroking their chins over all of the women who have left the workforce during the pandemic and don't seem to be in a hurry to return. I suspect a lot of families have figured out the 'cost of working' was actually higher than they had calculated, and they're really no worse off having one parent staying home with the kids rather than paying for daycare, etc.

[–]poppy_blu2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Willow-girl1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The vast majority of women who chose (key word) to leave the workforce during the pandemic were not women living off minimum wage.

Source? I Googled "demographics of women who left the workforce during the pandemic" but didn't turn up much (at least not initially). Did find one NYT article that said 400,000 of the 2.5 million who lost or left their jobs were childcare workers ... so, about 1 in 5. Those are not high-paying jobs. From the same article: "Non-college educated women and women of color have been disproportionately affected. Another report, published in the fall by the Brookings Institution, showed that nearly half of all working women have low-paying jobs. Those jobs are more likely to be held by Black or Latina women, and they are in sectors, such as dining and travel, that are among the least likely to return soon to a degree of normalcy." Source And this report indicates 1 in 3 mothers is contemplating scaling back her career or dropping out altogether in the wake of the pandemic.

I'm guessing that going forward, the "dropouts" will fall mostly into two categories at opposite ends of the spectrum: women so poor that the new child tax credit will nearly equal their wages less the cost of working; and financially secure married women who enjoyed being SAHMs for the duration of the pandemic, wish to continue and can afford to do so.

Media accounts generally focus on women who have been obliged to quit their jobs to take care of kids while schools are closed (etc.) but I have a sneaking suspicion that many families realized that Mom's net income was actually pretty small after the cost of working is factored in and the household runs much smoother with her at home. These are things they probably never would have discovered had the pandemic not sidelined so many women for so long, but now that the cat's out of the bag, so to speak, I think they're going to be a big game-changer going forward.

It’s making me question how many poor people you do actually know.

Umm, nearly everyone in my family and personal life? The only UMC people I associate with are my cleaning clients, although several speak frankly to me about their lives and struggles. A housecleaner, like a bartender or hairdresser, doubles as an ad hoc therapist, lol. I also have one who likes to follow me around while I'm working and ask questions about my personal life. I think they're curious about "how the other half lives," lol.

[–]poppy_blu1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Willow-girl1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You’re conflating between women who voluntarily left their jobs and women who were forced into unemployment.

I think there may be some overlap between the groups. For instance, when schools closed, some women quit working to take care of their kids. Were they "forced" to do so? Maybe daycare was available, but the cost would have meant they were working to pay their babysitter. So technically they had options ... but not really. OTOH, maybe another woman really wanted to cut back her hours or switch to being a SAHM, and the pandemic provided her with a convenient excuse. I don't think things are as cut-and-dried as the media makes them out to be.

You may be right, but you’re not showing any data that clarifies that.

Well, the situation is still unfolding, and some of what I've posted is indeed speculation ... hunches, if you will. I manage my retirement portfolio so I'm constantly trying to guess what's going to happen next and the opportunities that will result. Currently I think economists are underestimating the number of women who plan to stay out of the workforce, and they don't realize how many more will defect when the CTC checks start going out. In addition, there will be some women who won't be able to quit their jobs outright, but will opt to work fewer hours, or will call off more often because they can afford to lose a day's pay here and there, and they know their odds of being fired for it are lower in a tight job market. I suspect this is going to create considerable havoc for businesses in certain sectors (restaurants, hospitality, retail, nursing homes, etc.). But we will have to wait and see how this all plays out!

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lmfaooooo, he’s still on this?

is he even american?

welfare today provides a safety net that makes poor women choose it over dating betas/marriage? (Despite it being temporary, limited and requiring you to have a job and for most people only bringing in a couple hundred dollars a month max)

um, no. anyone who understands how that system works knows that it’s literally designed to be worse than a minimum wage job. why would women choose to live in the worst possible conditions over getting married, unless they were already incredibly poor.

why the fuck would i choose that over having a stable family environment where my children are raised with their father in the home and their parents being married?

does he think every woman would rather be poor? lmfaooooo

alimony and child support somehow makes women not want to date betas (I wasn’t really following this one myself - I think he’s saying that the more support a woman has the less likely she is to commit to a beta vs staying single but IDK)

i don’t even understand what this is supposed to mean or what a “beta” is in this context.

neither of these things even crossed my mind when i was dating, especially because i don’t expect to ever have to seriously concern myself with either alimony or child support.

financial abortion would make women stop having premarital sex and marry betas (cause financial abortion would I guess make all the birth control disappear too)

lmfao no. why would it make women stop having sex of birth control is still available and plan b is still an option?

wtf even is “financial abortion?”

Seems like he is saying that the shit can be put back in the horse and I’m saying it’s too late for that. But he doesn’t ever consider what I’m saying or that I might know more about my own culture than him and just calls me stupid all the time.

he does that to everyone, this man literally told me i was wrong about my understanding of my own sexuality and what i’m attracted to lmfaooooo

he’s possibly the most egotistical redditor i’ve ever encountered.

[–]angels-fan3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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But poor women don’t really have the option to hook up with beta bucks. Their dating pool is other poor men. Getting married is not a panacea to getting out of poverty.

It can be if you play it right. Ever heard the old saying, "Two can live almost as cheaply as one"? A couple with even modest earnings that combines their resources and puts off childbearing for awhile can do well. But that's not the way it usually goes, is it? Sigh

The thing is, when a family gets two or three generations deep in poverty combined with reliance on government programs, there is a kind of ... learned helplessness? ... that sets in. There is no longer even the question of trying to get ahead or make a better life independent of the system. People just lose the knack for hustling, I guess. I've seen it time and again and it's sort of sad, especially when you see it in young people who have their whole lives ahead of them. I'm not throwing shade though because when I was growing up, having a baby and going on welfare was viewed as a perfectly acceptable life path. Probably the only thing that stopped me from going down that road myself was the fact I don't like children and didn't want to be saddled with one, lol.

I went to work and even did the corporate thing for awhile and did pretty well, but I guess at the end of the day, I decided I was happier just being white trash, lol. But I'm glad I got out there for awhile; I got to go places and see things like NYC and Crow Fair that I wouldn't have experienced otherwise. I'm glad I had those experiences and have some money in an IRA for my retirement. But I'm also glad I don't have to do that anymore, and can just live in an old trailer, drive my beater truck and enjoy my garden and cows. I haven't worked a full-time job since the ACA made it possible for me to have health insurance without having to work for it. Had a few scary moments in the last administration when it looked like it might be repealed and I'd have to buckle down again but thankfully that didn't come to pass.

But anyway! (It's hot outside and I'm procrastinating going back to work in my garden, lol.)

His contention is that if you took away public assistance, poor women would be rushing to get married for money instead

I don't think this is so farfetched as this is exactly the way things went historically, before the advent of welfare. Prior to 1960, fewer than 5% of births were to single mothers, and that was before the advent of the Pill and legal abortion. Of course now we do have those things, so it's possible that instead of shotgun weddings, women would have more abortions, be more careful about birth control or more babies would end up being put up for adoption.

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Again, it's not a threat if the women are interested and consent to the activity.

You're just trying to obviate any responsibility women might have for extreme and potentially risky sex acts, and shift it all to men. Typical.

This narrative that only men are interested in engaging in violent sex, and thus alone bear the burden of being dangerous, even though, as research shows, women are twice as likely than men to be interested in violent, degrading sex. If such sex was nothing but an unwanted scourge to women, then why are they so interested in watching and engaging in it? Do they bear no responsibility for their own sex lives?

That men are the penetrators is mere biology, but the nature and appeal of degrading sex is shared by both genders. Penetration alone is not responsibility, unless it's forcible, non-consensual rape. Which it isn't in porn or bdsm/kinky sex.

Women are allowed to have sexual freedom and the commensurate responsibility. It's okay, it's the 21st century. Leave your Victorian sexual mores in the past, where they belong.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NeuroplasticSurgery1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

women don't want

And the point of this thread is that more and more women do want it. Or are at least interested in exploring it.

But your argument thus far has been that, because men are the penetrators, they alone are the reason for the existence of violent and degrading sex. That's just false, and you've been shown plenty of data to that effect.

Sex (and not rape obvs) is a mutual activity. More and more women post sexual liberation are interested in and desire degrading sex. Thus women share responsibility for it's existence and growing popularity. Very simple argument to follow.

But you've been trying to shift the blame for the popularity of sex that's performatively degrading to women solely onto men. Totally disingenuous. A not insignificant percentage of women want to experience it. Because women's sexuality can be just as depraved, dangerous, and taboo as men's. No matter who is doing the penetrating.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NeuroplasticSurgery1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women can't enjoy sex their partner doesn't want or like.

Is this some undiscovered law of nature? I'm interested to hear your reasoning and evidence. As will Stockholm, so you can collect your Nobel.

Only men are capable of rape or sexual assault. What delightful, benign creatures women must be in your world.

Oh wait, except more than 2/3 of male rape victims reported female perpetrators.

“But among men reporting other forms of sexual victimization, 68.6% reported female perpetrators,” the paper reports, while among men reporting being made to penetrate, “the form of nonconsensual sex that men are much more likely to experience in their lifetime ... 79.2% of victimized men reported female perpetrators.”

No one is arguing that women are more likely to rape men than the reverse. But you, in black and white fashion, twist this into "only men are capable of sexual malfeasance", and portray women as guiltless and pure beings, not capable of any wrongdoing or harm whatsoever.

Thankfully, there is plenty of data to the contrary to debunk your simple view of sexuality.

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You have no clue about anyone's positions.

you can very clearly see a person’s circumstances, in terms of what they have to work with physically.

i can see when a man is ugly, and can tell if he’s uglier than the dude next to him.

Even a dude with Down's syndrome can find it easier to marry if he has the right support system than someone who's possibly normal but otherwise socially isolated.

they keyword is can, but what are the chances of that actually happening?

obviously, a person who is socially isolated will not find success in dating; but if they’re otherwise normal, then they don’t have a valid excuse as to why they can’t. the person with down’s does. the advice for the isolated dude would just be “go outside” and he’d be more likely to find success than if you gave the same advice to the dude with down’s.

a person with a disability has a huge disadvantage compared to the average person, even if they have support. more people will discount them for having a disability than people would discount the other person for being socially isolated or inept.

although, i would guess that a person who is socially isolated is socially inept and has serious mental health issues; and that‘s what’s really stopping them from seeing success in dating. still, they have better circumstances than the dude with down’s because (in many cases) you can solve mental health issues and learn social cues, a person with down’s can’t learn not to be disabled.

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of course your woes don’t exist to women, they don’t have to deal with them or care. the same way men tell us we don’t have dating woes or problems because having a vagina is living life on easy mode.

True.. but my problem isn’t that women don’t have sympathy because I know they’re incapable of that.. my problem is that women wanna convince us that our woes don’t exist or shouldn’t matter to us..

y’all do this too, especially in this sub.

i find it hypocritical to complain women wanna convince men their dating woes don’t exist, while also telling women their dating woes don’t exist lmfao

and mainstream media is mostly controlled by men; so if you want widespread sympathy and change for men, it may be a good idea to start by getting your fellow men to care enough to advocate for each other as a collective.

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for people who want marriage, though, of course it affects dating.

So, most people.

the market is already free, it’s just not fair. you believe these things would make it fair, but free markets are not meant to be fair.

No, I mean it would make it free. I never said anything about fairness. All these things are direct governmental market interventions and are, by definition, making the market not free.

and none of those things shield women from the consequences of reckless dating. many still end up alone and bitter or in undesirable situations

.... They literally do.Just because it still leaves the possibility of failure it doesn't mean it doesn't shield you.

t’s just not as drastic of a consequence as bitter men want it to be.

You mean as drastic of a consequence it would be in a free market

[–]rft243 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

idk if i’d say most people still want to get married, but i digress.

more importantly, people younger than 27 (and some older people too) are not typically dating with marriage in mind; so it’s not like these things have that much of an effect on dating, unless you’re part of the datingoverthirty crowd.

free market, noun

an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

there are literally no legalities stopping men from competing for the women they want except their own circumstances and what those women find attractive. the government isn’t deciding what is and isn’t attractive to them, the women are.

the “prices” (as in, smv/rmv) are determined by the individuals who make up said market, not the government.

i’m not saying marriage and what comes with it doesn’t affect what makes someone a more desirable partner, just that it doesn’t have as much of an affect on it as you’re making it seem.

[–]TheJim661 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

more importantly, people younger than 27 (and some older people too) are not typically dating with marriage in mind; so it’s not like these things have that much of an effect on dating,

Even without marriage, not legalizing financial abortion and the removal of the financial incentive heavily influence the dating market. Wasn't one of the biggest changes to the SMP the female birth control pill? In a n actually free market women would prioritize relationships and stability more , which favors more men.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority, and from all forms of economic >privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities.[1] Proponents of the concept of free market contrast it with a regulated market in which a government intervenes in supply and demand through various methods such as tariffs used to restrict trade and to protect the local economy.

For example , imagine two companies operating on the same market. The government institutes a law that makes it so that one company has to pay all the salaries of the other company's employees. That's not a free market.

the “prices” (as in, smv/rmv) are determined by the individuals who make up said market, not the government.

But they are very much influenced by the government. For example with unfair divorce laws an unstable man would have higher RMV than he would have with fair divorce laws because the price of divorce would be steeper.

[–]rft242 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Even without marriage, not legalizing financial abortion and the removal of the financial incentive heavily influence the dating market. Wasn't one of the biggest changes to the SMP the female birth control pill? In a n actually free market women would prioritize relationships and stability more , which favors more men.

of course the birth control pill changed things, because women can have sex with who they want without having to worry about a high risk of pregnancy.

what really changed things was women being legally allowed to gain the same financial independence a man could. even without birth control, women no longer needing a man to survive would still have made a profound impact.

and i don’t see how more women not prioritizing relationships or marriage means the market isn’t free? the government isn’t enforcing this.

For example , imagine two companies operating on the same market. The government institutes a law that makes it so that one company has to pay all the salaries of the other company's employees. That's not a free market.

yeah, but that’s still not the government placing regulations on dating. that’s marriage and divorce.

that’s why i said dating is a free market. there are no legalities concerning dating. you keep bringing up marriage, i was talking about dating.

But they are very much influenced by the government. For example with unfair divorce laws an unstable man would have higher RMV than he would have with fair divorce laws because the price of divorce would be steeper.

if they’re in the market for marriage specifically, yeah; but like i said, dating itself (not relationships, not people courting with marriage in mind; i’m talking about dating) doesn’t have much, if any, government involvement.

like i said, most young people aren’t marriage minded, and i think most people aren’t looking to marry every single person they date; so it is pretty much a free market. the government is not stopping men from competing for the women they want.

and this example doesn’t make much sense because that man would have low rmv whether or not divorce laws changed.

[–]TheJim661 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

women can have sex with who they want without having to worry about a high risk of pregnancy.

Condoms were a thing even then. Anyway, here you go. Legalizing financial abortion would mean women would have to worry more about getting pregnant since they would be forced to have an abortion.

See how all these changes while in the surface had nothing to do with dating, changed dating completely?

what really changed things was women being legally allowed to gain the same financial independence a man could.

Again, here you go. Removing welfare, gender quotas and alimony would push women to put more importance in money .

and i don’t see how more women not prioritizing relationships or marriage means the market isn’t free? yeah, but that’s still not the government placing regulations on dating. that’s marriage and divorce.

First of all, not everything I said was about marriage. Secondly, marriage and divorce ARE part of the dating market. They are all part of the SMP. Marriage influences dating and dating influences marriage.

I can assure the unstable guy has zero problem finding relationships

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You still clean offices and work at Sonic?

No, I found better work eventually and I'm very grateful for that. My point is that I'm not above doing what I need to do to get by and I don't consider working fast food beneath me if that's the only work I can find. I'd go back to work at Sonic tomorrow if I had to.

You mooted the idea of people with education/experience going to work at McDonald's like it's some ridiculous injustice and I just don't agree. If the only job willing to hire you is McDonald's then your options are to take the job at McDonald's or go without. What do you expect anyone to do about that?

Do you think there is a better path for students/young professionals to gain experience or is our current system fine?

I don't really understand the question. What would a "better path" be? No one's ever going to create cushy white collar jobs out of the ether for no reason. If you don't have the skills employers are looking for then you've got to up your skill set or adjust your expectations. Good jobs will always be competitive.

If anything I think it's too easy to get into college and the value of a college education has been diluted to the point of near meaninglessness. That's a huge problem in my opinion.

This is reddit. I know for a fact most women aren’t advocating for the bootstrap.

Idk about most women but I advocate work ethic and not thinking you're entitled to anything just because you went to college.

To bring it back around to the subject at hand, dating isn't charity, and there's no such thing as deserve.

[–]rft242 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sounds like the “ugliest man” you’ve ever seen took that McDonald’s job. How about people with education and experience. Send them off to McDonald’s too?

if those people can’t manage to get more than the mcdonald’s job, then it looks like their options are take the mcdonald’s job or get nothing. if they continue to refuse the mcdonald’s job, their complaining isn’t magically going to open up a space for them in a corporate company. they’re going to be left unemployed.

that’s just reality.

We had a sensible dating market, but muh freedom, muh independence happened.

so you want women to settle for you, be with you by force, and have to pretend to love you and be attracted to you? you want women to be with you by force?

i just don’t get it. on one hand, we’re terrible for settling for men who aren’t conventionally attractive in every way because there’s no way we’ll truly respect them. on the other hand, we’re terrible for not settling for men we don’t want and refusing to be with them by force.

which one is it??? i’m gonna need men to pick a damn struggle, because women are damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

it sounds like what you want is communism. unfortunately for you, most of the western world doesn’t work like that.

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Ehh maybe if you're white. Of course this sub about dating ignores race even though it's one of the biggest factors.

not necessarily. personality factors in too.

my closest guy friend is a black guy who’s 5’4, i’d say he’s a 6-8 in the face (i’m accounting for personal preference there, imo it’s a 7). he’s done very well with women, even since high school.

excitable, adventurous, extroverted personality. a risk taker if i ever knew one. he’s the kind of person who actually enjoys going out of his way to have full-blown conversations with complete strangers. he’s charming, charismatic, and romantic. he knows how to woo women and he’s chivalrous, all of which gives him an advantage as well.

he’s not the only guy i know who’s around that height and does well with women, white or not.

I agree here it's ridiculous. What matters is if you're taller than the average woman.

yes.

even then, there are plenty of women shorter than average and there are those of them who don’t care if a guy isn’t 6’ tall. the easier solution is to just go for them.

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And who the hell would take care of these kids and provide for them if their mother popped them right after high school?

I had a pregnancy scare when I was 17-ish. I knew well, that if I was pregnant and decided to keep it, I'd put this child on my mother's shoulders. She wouldn't be okay with me stopping my education in order to work. Fortunately, it was just a hormonal disbalance and a faulty test, not real pregnancy.

Moreover, raising kids doesn't end when they go to school, they still need parents and one still has to spend a lot of time on them. I know women who got pregnant soon after school/during their graduation year, almost all of them are stuck in the village I come from without much chances to get away. It's far easier to get proper education and work experience without kids and have kids afterwards, not the other around.

Personally I'd never date an older guy, so the father of these theoretical children would be as young as me. A couple without education or proper work - sure we'd fit to be parents! Also I was 16 when I finished high school. It's just too early to have kids even if you want them and I'm not even sure about it.

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The reason men care about “n count” is an instinctual “grosss/ewww/ego thing” that is due to an evolutionary “paternity insecurity” as a result of “paternity uncertainty

It's funny how society finds it perfectly acceptable for women to pursue their evolved preferences but mercilessly shames men who pursue their evolved preferences. It's almost like modern society is a sick sham to prop up women and bring down men on every possible point, no matter how small or large, really makes you think...

...especially considering that the societal preference toward women is presumably evolutionarily based on the fact that women are needed to bear children, but they aren't even doing that at a replacement level anymore!

Making this historically unprecedented coddling of women a gigantic WASTE

Women in the aggregate are just like individual women "gotta treat em lean to keep em keen" lmao

Or like cats

[–]GridReXX3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don’t think it’s that concerted. It’s more women don’t care that men value “virgins” and have never truly cared about that outside of society telling her it’s a “thing.” And because women are the romantic and sexual intimacy bottlenecks we have more leverage here.

Men’s leverage is their physical strength. Aka they can use the threat of violence or actual violence to discipline women who didn’t subjugate themselves to men. By doing this men could also ensure women prioritized the home and “chastity” instead of career which means women relying on men economically and politically (not giving women rights to ownership or for autonomous licenses etc). Anyway doing this is how men shifted the leverage.

If men banned together to subjugate women again like Handmaid’s Tale or 1812 or something you’ll have the world you want.

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That’s not my experience. Anyone who has dated knows there are people you feel the spark with and people youve dated who you don’t as much. A Chad or Stacy or Dilbert or Maggie who have dated and end up with someone they feel that spark with will always feel that spark if it’s based on mutual “lust/compatibility/respect/admiration” — the bolded is the “spark.”

I think the guys here or the guys who many women find unattractive delude themselves into thinking a woman who has never had sex will automatically feel a spark with him. Or maybe he KNOWS that isn’t true but it’s an ego thing for him to say “well at least she hasn’t fucked anyone else so even if she isn’t bonded with me (aka attracted to me or affectionate toward me in any real way) I can say she’s a male ego trophy piece”

Attractive guys who care about “n count” don’t pretend it’s because of “pair bonding.”

Pair bonding obsession is a cXpe.

So I can’t say I agree with your take based on my own observations and experiences.

(Also “pair bonding” is not why lesbians don’t like to date bi women. They don’t like dating bi women because they fear bi women will eventually choose the “status quo” ease of a straight life and leave her for a man. Lol don’t project “pair bonding” conceptions of the manosphere onto lesbians.)

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When I was a child I felt as if my home was a safe island in a stormy sea of hopeless domestic violence.

Have met this phrase today in the discussion of domestic violence in Russia. And it's really close to how I feel about my childhood. My mother is a very loving and caring person, she gave me a really safe and sheltered childhood, I cherish it deeply.

But my case is an exception, most my friends had far worse experience. I remember I was visiting my friend when her parents started arguing and insulting each other and her father started throwing things at his wife. Her older sister eventually took her away because the father started being violent towards her too. I've seen bruises from beating on my other friend - her father whipped her with a belt for a bad mark. Several classmates were beaten up regularly, one had a broken arm - his father pushed him down the stairs. My close friend's brother cut his veins and she was giving him the first help, not their parents, who was the reason for his suicidal ideas in the first place. My other friend has overcontrolling father - you couldn't call or visit her and she could go out only when he was away. He also was physically abusive towards the whole family.

That's just depressing.

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The problem with trying to objectively rate attractiveness is that the only meaningful way to gauge it is by how in demand your are with your target demographic. And so by definition average women will always rate higher than average men, which is why comparing sexes' attractiveness is pretty meaningless, and why looksmatch is a non-concept.

People can come to a kind of statistical consensus on generally attractive features, but even at the higher echelons there is bound to be disagreement between almost any two people on whether, say, certain celebrities are attractive, even though being attractive is literally their job.

Also note how far more even mid-tier female celebrities will be considered hot by a majority of men, whereas the threshold for pure physical attractiveness for male celebrities is far higher.

At the same time, women are far more likely to connect a given male celebrity's attractiveness to a role they play, mirroring how female attraction works at lower levels as well, and thus giving a kind of back door for men to become sexually appealing.

[–]TheBookOfSeil2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The problem with trying to objectively rate attractiveness is that the only meaningful way to gauge it is by how in demand your are with your target demographic.

Not really. You can get a sense for features that would be seen as "attractive" and which would be seen as "average" or "not as appealing." Attractiveness is determined by compounding features. The problem with trying to objectively rate attractiveness is that people are unable to separate their preferences and biases from what they're judging. I have an eye for aesthetics so I just see what is attractive/what looks good and what isn't attractive/doesn't look good, though it's hard to judge atypical or foreign/"unique" features objectively since there's few if any precedents or points of reference.

"And so by definition average women will always rate higher than average men."

I disagree. That isn't the reason why average women rate higher than average men. Average women rate higher than average men because women were previously selected throughout history on the basis of their physical features, so in this case, sexual selection functions more like selective breeding. If certain features are being selected for, the offspring will physically reflect those features. It's only been until recently that the tables have greatly turned and now women are selecting from men who haven't undergone selective screening in their genetic lineage.

"which is why comparing sexes' attractiveness is pretty meaningless, and why looksmatch is a non-concept."

That's not true either. You definitely can match up similar features between sexes, if you can find them. If there's a disparity between the appearance of sexes, it will just be more difficult to find them. Humans don't have that big of a disparity than, say, peacocks do, so it wouldn't be likely that you would be able to find a looksmatch in a species with a physical appearance disparity like theirs.

Overall, it sounds like you're trying to compare the ways that men and women interpret attraction, which are both different, and nobody has said that they were the same. Men judging women cannot be compared to women judging men since they are both looking for different features, and thus, will have a different opinion of what is "attractive" relative to the preferences of their sex.

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I think your/her intent or involvement is what matters here. If she's wanting to build toward a future together, then she pays 50% of everything. If she's not wanting to build a future together, then she should still pay 50% of everything. I don't understand the logic that if they're romantically involved then she pays the utilities and that's it but will pay rent if they're not, because if they get married in the long run while she was only paying utilities, she can still show that she contributed money toward the house and potentially be declared as an asset that she's entitled to if they divorce while he was paying it off from his own pocket.

Either way, a woman in that situation shouldn't be living rent free. Being a live-in GF doesn't excuse any woman from not contributing toward the bills in an "equal partnership."

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He doesn’t like her that much.

I mean they're exes who just got back together, so obviously they have a history that didn't end well. I'm just confused on where this logic of "if he really liked her, he wouldn't make her pay" comes from, and where her involvement/participation in this situation starts. Sounds very similar to dinner date dynamics.

He wants a roommate. It’s a sweet deal for him. Clearly it isn’t for her because she knows better than any of us here how he is and how their relationship is. If she felt it was sweet deal for her, she would be living with him now and this post wouldn’t be up. They are not aligned on many things.

Same could be said for her. She wants a potential long-term investment payout if things don't work out and she doesn't like him that much either. It would be a sweet deal for her, as divorce often is for women, so she's got little to lose if he yields to her demands, and maybe he sees that too.

Point still is that shes trying to make things good for her at his expense and he doesn't sound like he has enough incentive or benefit to do that, because otherwise it would be a sweet deal for him and they'd be living together right now and this post wouldn't be up.

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You know more women who cheat than I do.

I'm sure we both know plenty who branch swing.

But yep if he wants a roommate she can behave as a roommate.

Cohabitation before marriage is dating your roommate.

This isn’t about feminism.

Lol ok. It certainly is the result of feminism. Strong independent women can pay their own bills.

If I charged a dude I was fucking to pay down my mortgage in addition to him paying half the utilities and all other bills, he would be correct in assuming I didn’t value him that much as a romantic partner, but def as a tenant !

Lol you'd let a man live in your house for free? I guess if Chad was fucking you enough.

Only way he should feel comfortable with that deal is if he knew we were combining finances and assets in our future.

Yeah he should be comfortable combining financial assets with someone who won't pull her own weight lol

But then again, unlike you all I don’t cohabitate with romantic partners frivolously. If we’re moving in together, we have longterm future plans together.

I have literally never lived with a women that wasn't family because I'm not a retard who hates himself (I mean I am, but not that badly).

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Buying a home is a form of investment and its relatively low risk. Paying a portion of someone's monthly payment for access to their asset is not an investment "style" lol...that's looking for a freebie. Take a look at what I wrote and try to think critically about it before you answer.

He purchased a 220K asset with 20K collateral. She wants equity in this asset by paying a portion of his monthly payment. Think about that, access to a six figure asset with zero risk. Just to get a one year lease for a place requires a small security deposit but she wants instant equity to his house.

BTW monthly mortgage payments don't go directly to principal. Like I said, the interest is front-loaded and you also have things like insurance, HOA, and property taxes.

It's clear your out of your element here which is fine, take the L and move on

[–]GridReXX1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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If you mean “taxes and insurance” then sure she can pay that halfsies. That’s expenses. Smurf literally said she wouldn’t pay rent, but she splits taxes, insurance, and utilities 50/50 with her boyfriend because it’s a house he inherited.

“Rent” means something to most people. It implies a profit or a gain. I pay my landlord “rent.” I am not simply paying for expenses, I am paying a mark up so that they profit off of me living here.

To tell someone you love or lust or are fucking that they can live with you as long as they pay you rent, is inherently fucked up for most ppl who understand basic human interaction.

So him saying “rent” signals to everyone and her that “he plans to profit off of this arrangement.”

If it’s just expenses and bills being split 50/50, I have no issue with that. I said that wayyy up thread.

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Utilities are bills? She would financially contribute to offset the increased bills due to her contributing to increased usage of resources (food, electricity, water) and increased wear and tear of the property (by paying part of the repair bills).

You won't be paying additional mortage due to her living there. Mortage bills are on your own neck for the choice that you made when you were alone (in the eyes of the law). Should she also be paying towards your student loans? If she wants to contribute to those things on her own free will (or if you ask her and she agrees on her own will), that's great. If you are demanding her to pay for those things she has the right to demand to having some legal rights to the thing she is paying for.

If you demand rent from her it's no longer a romantic relationship. It's a tenant and landlord relationship (and majority of the time sex is not part of the relationship).

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I was telling u/TheBookOfSeil about one of my bf’s best friends - a gay guy who presents as straight (doesn’t care about fashion or grooming, loves football and beer and everything traditionally masculine. Owns a pizza place, so fairly successful). For all intents and purposes, dude is straight, except for the fact that he likes to have guys touch his junk instead of women

But the guy attracts women like no one’s business. He’s not even particularly good looking, definitely not a gym goer with a good body (he’s skinny). I think it’s the fact that he doesn’t give a shit about picking up anyone when he goes out, so he’s just a good time guy - loves to dance, will drag people onto the dance floor, buying rounds of shots for people, etc

Girls FLOCK to him, thinking he’s a charismatic straight guy. And they get territorial over him, it’s wild to watch. They all want to hook up

The more I’m thinking about it, the more I’m thinking that being a gay guy has perfected his abundance mentality/charisma game. He genuinely doesn’t GAF about the girls, doesn’t care if he makes an ass of himself by being too drunk, doesn’t care about coming across the wrong way. He just wants to have fun, buy rounds, and keep the party going

Be like the surprise gay guy, dudes. Somehow, he figured out how to get girls to throw themselves at him - by not caring at all

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It’s not demented, look at it from our perspective - we’re sexual prey from the time we’re little (I was 8 the first time I noticed being ogled by a grown man, and my dad nearly killed him)

Men use every trick in the book to get some action, from sweet talk to lying to straight up slipping stuff into our drinks. And that’s before we get into the men who just take what they want - be it copping a feel to straight up rape - without waiting for permission

By the time we graduate Jr High, girls know we need to have our defenses up around boys at all times. It’s neither good nor bad, it just is what it is

So when we meet someone who doesn’t seem to care, who doesn’t seem to have ulterior motives, it’s refreshing. It’s attractive that we can drop our defenses and just be ourselves, especially when he’s fun and charismatic. It’s something we rarely get to do around men

EDIT - also “not giving a shit” is a bad way to put it. You can very clearly give a shit about people, and not give a shit about getting your dick touched

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It could just be having fun.

My female friends and I had the best time of our lives being dragged to gay male clubs by our gay male friends all throughout our 20s.

It was just dancing and shots and fun and awesome music and more dancing. It’s exactly what women do when they go to regular clubs and men complain “why is she just dancing in a circle with her friendsssss how is that fun???” Because it is. It’s carefree fun.

I recall watching the Studio 54 documentary. Basically the owners of Studio 54 replicated black gay clubs of NYC. What was happening was the models and socialites were choosing to go to gay black clubs to have fun and dance and listen to fun vibey music. The “hot girls of NYC” flocked to gay clubs precisely for the reasons I explain above. Studio 54 owners wanted those girls at their club so they created Studio 54 to be identical in bombast and vibes as the black gay clubs the models were going to. In fact they made most of their staff gay men probably to put the hot girls at ease. It worked like a charm. It’s also a little bit of typical American appropriation where black underbelly folks do something cool and then rich enterprising white guys (I think they were Jewish tbh) catch on and sell the “cool” to mainstream which makes way more money.

The point is women enjoy having carefree fun with men. It becomes less “carefree” when he tries to stick it in or behave as though he wants to stick it in.

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Of course it is. They are businesses first and foremost and people need to understand that their primary goal is to make money, not to help you date successfully. And the most lucrative way to profit is to take advantage of men and their thirst. They know what they are doing.

I would tell average guys, sure put up a profile but don’t spend that much time on it and focus on other ways to meet women. It’s like fishing — drop up your bait in the water and go do other things and come back and see if you get any bites but don’t expect miracles.

And most of all don’t take it to heart if women aren’t responding. It’s just the nature of the beast. Just like when you’re job searching. Many places you send resumes to will not hire you but that doesn’t mean you’re not qualified.

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I think online, at least on this side, it's just easier to tell them to go fuck themselves. Why should we as women feel bad for people who support really misogynistic ideas about women and put us down? Why should I care about the despair of the same people who trivialize everything there is about being a woman? In real life and when speaking to men away from their internet tribes, they seem way more normal and easy to empathize with. Those are my limits so that's what I do

But I feel very strongly about this. This culture of disrespecting women yet still expecting us to give a fuck and prioritize male issues is absolutely deluded.

What I WOULD be happy to do however is listen to more normal male groups tackling talks about dating but idk if there are any. I recently discovered /r/bropill and they seem really nice. I'd listen to men like this talk abiut their struggles and be supportive

But Mr. "Women are children and over inflate their value"? I lol at their dry peens and butthurt daily.

And I see your point but lol they don't care about women who have these difficulties. They say such women don't exist right before they reach out to femcels for free therapy and female attention

[–]Sad_Top17432 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think online, at least on this side, it's just easier to tell them to go fuck themselves. Why should we as women feel bad for people who support really misogynistic ideas about women and put us down? Why should I care about the despair of the same people who trivialize everything there is about being a woman? In real life and when speaking to men away from their internet tribes, they seem way more normal and easy to empathize with. Those are my limits so that's what I do

There are more blue-pilled men who suffer the same but don't share the same views though.

I would put you in the stubborn category, you seem to understand there is a problem but you are not accepting complaints because of the messenger rather than the message.

I understand that but I don't get the women who are opposing the message itself, there is just so much evidence that it's true.

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I constantly get gaslighted about it, but, I find vast majority of women more attractive in their "hanging out at home" style more than "going out on the town" style.

Definitely can agree there. I think women might disagree because they need to feel good about themselves by dressing up and getting validation in order for it to be true. If they don't feel good about themselves, they won't believe anyone who says otherwise, which is kinda sad.

Never known why. But I've had GFs come over that I was excited to see and am literally disappointed seeing them show up with big earrings and heels on.

I guess some guys are just turned off by the bimbo look. Guys who are too caught up in modern living or might have been brought up around that are probably more likely to find it appealing. I was raised in a small town in the 90s with my rather conservative grandparents so flashy things don't appeal to me than much. I prefer a more toned down and natural look.

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Lies told in order to advance the female imperative:

Women dont want to be bothered when theyre just going about their day/women dont like sexual come ons/women dont want dick pics/women dont want to be hit on at work (and things of this nature)

Purpose of the lie: The more men believe these as cold hard black and white fact, the less men will engage in these behaviors, which makes things less annoying for women.

Truth: Although the success rate on these are low, they do have the potential to work, and do actually work in reality sometimes.

When a woman says no, it always means no

Purpose of the lie: The more men believe these as cold hard black and white fact, the less men will engage in being persistent when a woman says no.

Truth: Some women do mean yes when they say no. Sometimes they want you to try harder and convince them. (Sometimes theyll get upset if you dont!) Sometimes they want you to be so overcome with lust that you just "take her". (ie. "Ravagement" fantasies)

Women dont date mysoginists/women only date guys who are respectful/TRP and pickup dont work (and other things like this)

Purpose of the lie: The more men believe these as cold hard black and white fact, the less men will engage in behaviors they dont like (see a pattern here yet?), as the sucess rate of these tactics are low, and youll probably bother 100+ odd women before it works.

Truth: They do work sometimes, although as mentioned numerous times before, youll bother far more women than the times youll be successful.

The more men that do these things, the more women will be annoyed and suffer, and so many lie to most suit the female imperative.

Personally, I think the truth should be told for truth's sake, in all facets of life, and the chips should fall where they may.

"B-b-b-b-but everyone with half a brain who isnt autistic with downsyndrome living in their mom's basement subsisting on hot pockets and tendies, sitting in a sweaty disgusting chair with piss bottles laying all around their room and a crusty old cumsock laying underneath their bed already knows all of this is just a polite fiction to help maintain social order!", you may think.

If its so apparent to everyone then there should be no problem in talking about it. No one would get mad if I said 2 + 2 = 4 or the sky is blue.

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Well, I've replaced booze with ice cream, so I'm not appreciably healthier there LOL I'm not joking when I say I'm pushing 50 with a BMI under 25, but just barely, and for a long time I took in about half my calories in booze. Not great for the gainz, but gainz did come.

Sobriety is absolutely fucking with me right now. If I was still drinking, I would have been going out most nights. I have a career to save, frankly, and I'm connecting a whole lot of dots, so my example is a poor one.

I love the stop drinking subreddit. It's great to interact with other people who are willing to say "You know, I'm pretty sure that my brain has been deformed enough by alcohol, that at very least the drinks are taking a lot of drinks. Perhaps I shouldn't take the first."

It's not about guilt or shame or anything like that. Fuck AA and fuck anyone who pretends that heavy drink is a moral failing in any way, shape, or form. There is honest debate on what came first, bread or beer. Human history has been driven by booze to a surprising and often horrifying degree, at least if you know anything about Nixon.

[–]angels-fan3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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At 21 Youre an adult and responsible for your own choices. It’s not my concern what you do.

Now If I had a 21 yo daughter or family member, I would caution her to think about it before settling down with an older man:

differences in experiences and where you are in life could become challenging. People may not understand you as a a couple and while that’s not your problem they can cause you stress and strain
make sure you’ve through about whether you’re sacrificing those years where you could be learning about yourself, getting an education, and building your own path to actually be a better partner and mother; don’t be rushed into something you’re not ready for because your partner is in a different place in life
make sure you vet. We’ve all seen older men with younger women fetishes who trade up each time their SO approaches 30. Don’t give up your youth for a man who will trade you in for a younger model in a few years.

To be fair, these are things I’d say in some variation even if her partner was the same age.

As far as it being predatory, a man can be predatory no matter what age he’s dating (as can women). If she underage, it shouldn’t be allowed. If she’s of age, as I said, she’s free to do what she wants.

And yes at 20, the thought of sleeping with a man my fathers age was nauseating. As would the though of sleeping with a man in his late 60s be for me now. Sure there are outliers but for the most part I’m not turned on by men significantly older or younger than me.

Does that answer your question?

PS - my prediction is that my list will trigger quite a few men here. Particularly the part about enjoying your youth, as quite a few men here make a big stink about this as contributing to women’s “degeneracy” and their being fewer young virgins left for them. The irony is that these attitudes out them as the exact type of older man who we do find creepy and exploitative. Meaning not all men who date younger women are predatory. Ones who complain about women being allowed to be free in her 20s and not be married off as a teen to an older man and now she’s “soiled” are exactly the ones we tell women to run from.

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Ok sorry when you said “which I believe they are” I thought you were referring to older men manipulating young women, not women being smart.

I think you guys way overstate this complaint about women in stem.

promoting stem to women and offering scholarships is no different than promoting nursing to men and offering scholarships, and there is a big push in the nursing field to do that. For fields are dealing with a chronic shortage of qualified people and both are going to be critical in the future. They’re trying to build a pipeline of talent among the younger generations and it’s a lot harder to do that if 50% of the population doesn’t consider your field as an option.

My husband is an engineer. He says that he does see an effort to recruit more women but he’s not bothered by it. He’s never heard anyone say that women are being “kept out” of stem. If anything, it’s kids from poor backgrounds who are missing out on these opportunities because their schools can’t or don’t invest in it. One of the things he does in his mentoring work is try to find opportunities for these kids to get exposure to stem careers though other channels. Like he’s brought kids into his work and had them do career days with the engineers.

My son is in a stem pre magnet program and he’ll have an option to apply to the program When he gets to high school next year. It’s virtually all boys and they do try to recruit girls but again they’re not bothered by it either way — if women want to join, great, if they don’t great.

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Yeah, when things are blatantly unfair and sexist, I'll get offended at that.

Feminists get offended that they aren't given special privileges.

Big difference.

We aren't talking about scholarships. We're talking about programs that introduce and entice young people into fields that are under represented for that gender.

You seem hell bent on denying that schools have multiple programs aimed at introducing young girls to stem with no equivalent for young boys.

Yes, young boys can do some work and probably find a course that is free and probably do some more work to find a free ride. But girls are offered this already packaged up because I guess the sexists believe that girls are too stupid or lazy to do the work that the boys have to do to find the coder camps?

Again, I have more faith in girls than the woke crowd does. I believe young girls could do exactly the same work to find a camp and find a ride that the boys need to do without needing to cater to them. It's just infantilizing to women to think they need the school administration to make it overly easy, otherwise girls won't bother.

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Two age gap relationships and the dynamics therein:

my parents-25 year age gap, but my mother was 30 when she met my father. My mom was a full fledged woman with a career and had lived independently for many years. Their relationship and marriage was a meeting of minds, with equal respect, love, and consideration for each other.

Erin H.-childhood friend that physically developed VERY quickly. In Junior year (17 y.o.-legal in our state) she got a 26 year old boyfriend (yes, we all thought he was a creep) and that man leeched the youth/joy/vitality from her. He was an acquaintance of her older brother plus no parental supervision is how they met. Anyway I ran into her a few years ago (we would have been in our early 30's) and she was so haggard. The creep had long abandoned her with 3 kids, she then developed a nebulous autoimmune disorder, put on about 80 lbs, was functionally bald, and was just pure distilled bitterness in human form. I don't know what went on in their relationship (she conveniently dropped out of school shortly after hooking up with him and then I left for college) but her facebook posts to this day are just long meandering screeds about evil men, abusers, rapists, the ineffective justice system and the broken child support system. Did the 26 year old manipulate her and ruin her life? I'd say so; she may have looked 18+ but mentally/emotionally she was a 17 year old girl.

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The “manipulation” angle is stupid imo. Most age gap relationships don’t work out due to differences in lifestyles, interests and relationship timelines.

Also in my anecdotal experience older men aren’t interested in marriage-worthy LTRs with younger women. I had an FWB who was 10+ yrs older than me when I was in my early 20s. There was never any notion of seriousness on either side. We had fun sex for a few months then went our separate ways. He actually came up on my Instagram a year ago and it turns out he was now engaged to a woman his own age.

Similarly I have a friend who’s been dating a single dad 15yrs her senior for the past four years. They don’t live together and she has zero intention of ever moving in with her marrying him (and he feels the same). It’s unlikely either of them would have found a similar “exclusive but casual” type relationship if they were dating people their own age.

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So, looking back through this sub again, there’s virtually zero point of having this sub.

There’s no debate that ends with people changing their minds. The idea of love is what differs between the two groups. Then on RP you have skinny fat twenty year olds that are bitter that Rachel from band class didn’t give them a handjob after school in ninth grade.

BP has male feminists that have to win relationships by transaction (money, etc) and then preach that their way is the route to go forward on, rather than working on themselves. Also seems a large portion of the women here are bitter that they had a bad childhood, college girls that saw TRP in an article and came to type angry at them for virtue signaling points on the internet, and the third group is older women close to menopause bitter that their life was wasted by a man that used RP concepts.

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This is why women are able to be attracted to actors in movies but find them unattractive outside of the context of the show or movie they were in.

It could be that people get to know the character the actor plays through watching the movie/series and they don't know the personality of the actor unless they follow the actors personal life. It's the separation of actor and character. It can also be that an actor plays a character that has an attractive personality, but IRL the actor is an arse, so the character could still be seen as attractive, but the actor IRL - not. Personality can give you bonus attractivness points, that bump you into the "attractive" category (which you might not reach by looks alone).

A bit of an example: the 10th Doctor (from Doctor Who) and Crowley (from Good Omens) are attractive, Kilgrave (from Jessica Jones) is not. The three characters are played by David Tennant. I don't know anything about David Tennant's personal life, so outside the context of the shows he's in a "neutral eh" category.

[–]TheBookOfSeil2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It could be that people get to know the character the actor plays through watching the movie/series and they don't know the personality of the actor unless they follow the actors personal life

Yes, that's the point, but they also create other fantasies in their mind to fill in the blanks as far as what he's like in a relationship, or in bed, or meeting with her family and friends, etc. They don't even know the personality of the actor unless they know them personally. Actors and celebrities are fully aware that their public image is almost as important as their acting skills, or whatever it is that they do.

It can also be that the actor plays a character that has an attractive personality

Yes, what they consider to be attractive. That's also the point. They don't like the person themselves but the character they're portraying. That said, men can fake a personality that is attractive to women based on that fact and still be successful. Men don't even have to "be themselves." All they have to do is be an actor and play a role that women are attracted to.

I think what holds most of the less successful guys back is also ironically seen as a positive character trait, which is honesty. They don't want to feel like they're tricking someone into liking them by acting like someone else.

What I'm saying is that all men basically need to do is present as a character from a fictional movie or story and women's brains will do the rest.

[–]Siukslinis_acc1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What I'm saying is that all men basically need to do is present as a character from a fictional movie or story and women's brains will do the rest.

It depends if your goals are short term or long term. For short term stuff it might be ok, but for long term it's not. I think it's a constant mental strain to "keep up the act"/the fear of being found out and is a source of stress that is not good in the long run. I think the constant need to keep up appearance/act is one of the reason for mental problems of celebrities.

Having other people fill in the blanks is not that good as they can form false expectations and you would have aditional stress to fulfill their imaginary expectations (that are based on fantasy/imagination and not reality) else you'd get reprimanded.

For LTRs it's better to be honest and find a person who likes you the way you are.

It's like no stress getting dates, but having stress of keeping the appearance up during the relationship (acting) VS stress finding a date, but having no stress during the relationship as the person likes the real you (honesty).

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You don’t have to care. Just like I don’t have to care about your opinion.

Luckily humans are individuals who have the ability to form their own opinions and preferences. If an individual man find my sexual history unappealing to him, cool. That’s his right. We don’t have to get together. I will move on to man who doesn’t have issues with my sexual history.

If I find that I’ve crossed a threshold where a decent amount of men have issues with my sexual history, well then I have to accept that and realize I’ve narrowed my pool. But that’s what it is.

I can’t imagine anything less important to me than the fact that a guy on Reddit believes that women should be forced to abstain from sex before marriage. Again, we are just incompatible and don’t need to date.

I imagine you’re suggesting that if enough men felt this way, it might lead to the laws changing such that it would be enforced on women.

Nah. The majority of men in America today love that unlike their grandfathers they don’t have to be forced to get married just to get laid.

And should there ever be a groundswell of fundamentalists trying for that, I’d do what I do whenever I am an concerned citizen — oppose it through the normal channels of our democracy.

And if our precious American democracy is overthrown for whatever reason, I can assure you the last thing on my mind will be what do dudes think of my n count.

Hope this helps.

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the thing is that each individual woman doesn't have sex while thinking about how a random man she never met is going to feel. men dont either.

I don't think that's an honest interpretation of hypergamy.

in all areas of life, humans are individualistic and selfish.

Complete disagree men instituted monogamy altruistically for the good of the whole.

sex and relationships arent and will never be an exception.

Again, just dishonest framing here. It doesn't mean you won't like the guy you're with.

even in the times where women's rights where limited that you idolise, sex and relationships were entirely selfish pursuits.

I disagree entirely. The family unit existed to have kids and live as well as they could with the mother and the father playing their individually important rolesin the kids lives.

It may not be the ideal but it is what works best for everyone.

I don't idolize those times. But today is shit too in an arguably worse way and is only getting worse. The thing was back when women claimed to have it bad men listened and changed things.

When men try to ask women for the same courtesy they are laughed at and told that everything and everyone is selfish so they should just get theirs.

Do you see how that's disrespectful of the concessions men have made that gave you the freedoms you enjoy?

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in all areas of life, humans are individualistic and selfish.

Maybe you'll actually like your match, seems like you're trying to say that you need to be selfish in order to satisfy your sexuality but I'm arguing that a person might not need to. You know there were arranged marriages between attractive people right?

Hottest weren't exceptions, they had arranged marriages, a woman picked for him by the family etc.

I strongly disagree with you that any of that was altruistically engineered. monogamy wasn't invented, it was the evolutionary solution to child bearing and paternal certainty. the world didnt go from "huge orgy" to civilised monogamy bc "men" collectively agreed to that

The men in power got together and implemented it even though it was counter to their prospects. With the power they could have had harems. You see this happening right now in other places.

How can you deny that men in power weren't undermining their own interests with monogamy.

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well it is time to take the real red pill and understand that society never has in the past and never will have your back.

I'm not behaving as anything, its literally your words. you want men and women to make sexual choices for the greater good of society so in other words you want men and women to make sexual choices while thinking about the interest of random men and women they'll never meet.

society is civilised yes, but that isn't to have my back personally. it is because an eye for an eye eventually leads to extinction. if you murder me in a lawless society, my family will then murder you and yours will murder mine etc until nobody is left. it's again, not intentionally engineered, but an evolutionary solution. just like nobody sat down and thought "uhm monogamy sounds hot" and made it happen.

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I guess they call these trigger warnings, so y'all might want to be careful with this.

In retrospect, that line grandpa used on me, he used on all the boys.

I knew to fear him and considered killing him when I was young enough to get away with it. I was a crack shot with the family .22 by the time I was 7. Put a .22 through a burly man's eyeball, and it will make some new channels in his brain tissue.

This was the first time I was in his bedroom with him alone. My mother was a horrible person, but at least she protected me from the active pedophile in my family. By this time, though, I was a teenager and could have easily defended myself, so I was more curious about what he was up to than anything else.

He pulled his 30-06 from beneath his bed, bragged up how it could take down any game on the continent, and said he would will it to me. I was really confused at the time. I am (sadly) not a hunter. Why would he give such a splendid gun to me? Shit, my little cousin 5 years younger than me had already shot half a dozen antelope.

In retrospect, it was just a line. I bet he pulled that routine on all the boys, and let me be super, super clear about something: For a disgusting old pedophile, he was very charming. I bet that was a well worn line for him, because I'm guessing it worked pretty well.

Two major takeaways:

PPD (and the manosphere) routinely underplays male sexual predation. At the same time, calling push/pull, game, dread, spinning plates, calling all that predation erodes the meaning of real predation, vs. just playing the game that has been being played as long as we've been sexually reproducing critters.

Almost more importantly, I feel like I am in the vanguard of healthy het men who have been trained to despise their own sexuality because the exploits of disgusting men like my grandfather have shone a light on the really horrible parts of male sexuality.

Many of us are pretty horrified by it all, to the point of not banging bitches who are like, would you please relax and bang me?

No, PPD is not my diary, but I've been breathing this stuff since the '70's, and I've seen some crazy shit.

For instance, this grandpa....the one who raped 2 of his 4 sons, some grandsons, and quite a few pretty boys in Burma back in WWII....is the father of the one who wrecked that freight train I talked about yesterday.

I haven't even started in on the fact that my mother pimped folks out, quite literally. I know quite a few dudes in Tampa got a mother/daughter threesome, because my mother was in the car waiting for them to finish, so they could go get more coke.

[–]rft245 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

i’m sorry you had to experience that.

that being said, of course the manosphere underplays male sexual predation (and all male predation, really). they don’t typically experience it the way women do; plus acknowledging the disgusting side of male sexuality and the severity of it ruins the “men are wonderful, women bad” narrative, so they have to downplay it to stay consistent.

men are just as allergic to accountability as women are, especially manospherian men.

people call those tactics predatory because they kinda are. it’s not so much the tactics, but why these men are using these tactics and how the person on the other end is affected by them.

it’s obviously not the level of predatory that a sexual abuser is, since it’s psychological. that doesn’t mean it can’t be, or isn’t still, predatory on some level. intentionally screening for people who will accept mistreatment from you in any way, who will accept being treated like they’re below you, seems predatory to me; whether it’s for sexual gratification, psychological/emotional fulfillment, or something else.

no matter who is doing it or why they’re doing it; if the end goal is to exploit someone for personal gain, then i think that’s predatory.

for example: wouldn’t you say a woman using tactics to get men to accept mistreatment from her so she can exploit them for financial gain is predatory? isn’t this the reason everyone harps on fds so much?

predation doesn’t only have to include sexual predators is all i’m saying.

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I think that’s part of why a bunch of them are so obsessed with women being “submissive”. They have their own intense interests and hobbies and don’t want to ever try anything new outside of their comfort zone. They want the woman to drop her interests (or have no interests of her own in the first place) so she can watch him do his hobbies while telling him how smart and impressive he is doing them. That’s the ideal for some of the more vocal guys here.

That desire is also part of why they keep preaching the nonsense idea that women don’t have any interests. It’s not that women don’t have interests, it’s that these particular guys don’t want a woman to have interests of her own. They want her to take on his interests and conform to his lifestyle; her hobbies and lifestyle are beneath his interest. But proves she’s “genuinely attracted” to him if she wipes her own personality to please him. A lot of their weirdness is a bizarre desire for validation.

Note: this is not how normal men think. Just some of the weirdos on this sub making these claims.

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You’re literally proving mine and Smurf’s point. If you don’t understand why having common interests in interpersonal relationships is important that’s a you problem. This is basic shit any non-autismo person understands just from like…making friends.

If you want specific examples, my husband and I like camping and doing general outdoorsy stuff together. My last ex and I were both into lifting/nutrition/general fitness related things. Pretty much all the men I’ve dated and I have had the same tastes in movies, books, tv shows, etc.

Honestly have you ever been in a serious relationship? Do you think couples who’ve been together for decades don’t have anything in common except for having sex with each other? This is such an alien view of human relationships it’s honestly mind boggling that anyone can hold this opinion

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I can’t believe this needs explaining, but maybe you just aren’t passionate about any of your interests... I’ll give a sample of a “common interest” I have with my partner: We really like to go on outdoor adventures together. For example, we take the kayaks and find an island on the map to explore. If it’s private enough we set out a picnic blanket and have sex in the open air. Or we go hiking with our dogs and find a nice spot to set up camp or go skinny dipping in the river if it’s warm enough.

Sure, we could do many of our hobbies alone or with someone else, and we have individual interests that we do, but having at least some shared interests mean we actually want to spend time together! Because we like to spend time together, being stuck together all year for covid wasn’t even an issue for us. We played video games and board games together, went kayaking a lot, worked on our garden, talked about books we read (we like many of the same books and love to discuss them), etc.

What do you do with your manboy companion that’s impossible to do with someone else?

Many things we do together give us romantic feelings, which result in great sex after. I don’t want to spend quality romantic time with anyone else, because I’m in a monogamous relationship. I want at least a few things I can do with my SO to spend quality time together, because that is one of my love languages.

[–]geyges1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Novadina3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If my guy suddenly didn’t want to do anything with me except have sex, yes I would have to leave him. I’m with him because we agreed to be partners, if he didn’t want to be my partner anymore and just wanted sex and literally didn’t want anything else to do with me, I would know he didn’t love me anymore! Why on earth would I stay with someone who didn’t love me, didn’t want to do anything with me, and who I didn’t even have anything to talk about with (talking about things like books we both read is also another “common interest” we have)? I spend many hours a day with my partner, it can’t all be spent having sex. Not to mention I wouldn’t even want sex if I lost all the quality time with him.

How much does it matter what exactly you do, as long as you do it together?

You originally said no shared interests would be needed except sex. And in your hypothetical you said he would stop doing all the things we do together. So I’m confused about what exactly you think he would do “together” with me here... If he only wanted to do his other interests and suddenly didn’t share any with me than that would be things like working on his car, which I have no interest in doing together with him (and I don’t think he wants me to, either, I would probably just be in the way!).

My god I would go nuts if I had to have spent the last 15 years just working on his car with him and watching him play shooter video games instead of doing all the great stuff we actually did together that we both really enjoy.

[–]geyges1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Novadina2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, I got my husband into kayaking, so of course if there is a base commonality then hobbies can be shared with the other. My husband was already into the outdoors, I didn’t turn a guy who hated nature into a nature lover. I have dated people before who were not into the outdoors at all and it just doesn’t work for me. They want to live and play in the city, I want to live more remote and play in the forest or ocean, they want to go to bars for fun on the weekends, I want to go camping. I bring them camping and they whine and complain the whole time about bugs or dirt, so I can’t even enjoy it properly.

I dated a guy who we had nothing in common with except the sex was good - I lasted 6 months before that was old. We had nothing to talk about, how could I actually live with him and spend even more time with him? My husband and I like to talk about the same things, like science we read about, politics, books we read. The guy who didn’t share any of these basic interests was too boring to be with when we weren’t having sex.

I really need a partner who has some fundamental things in common with me.

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Actually research shows that long-lasting content couples have more similarities and commonalities than not.

The whole “opposites attract” thing is very surface. “He’s short and she’s tall!” or “she likes poetry and he likes comics!” doesn’t qualify as “polar opposites.” Dig deeper into the myriad facets and you’ll find that if that couple “gets along swimmingly” it’s because they’re aligned on more things (interests and/or purviews and/or values and/or etc) than not.

edit: Furthermore being able to bond and wax poetic over shared worldviews and values is a shared interest. I’m realizing many guys here are conflating “interests” with “hobbies”/“activities.” “She loves PC gaming and I love PC gaming” isn’t the only example of a “common interest.”

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Yes. The few I do know who struggle/did struggle tend to be siblings or something - not people I personally have relationships with. And there is always a reason why they struggle, even if they haven’t realized it yet

I’m an extroverted person who enjoys an active social life. It’s a ‘birds of a feather’ thing - the people I’m comfortable around (and who are comfortable around me) are generally cut from the same cloth. We’re all social, so meeting people isn’t an issue

Even the people I do know who struggle do so in a way that is different from what the guys on PPD complain about. Like my sister, who is a BPD nightmare ... like all BPD girls, she has no problem attracting men, she has a hard time keeping the good ones around. But there’s always a new one in the wings, so she just moves it along

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A sub where:

men are experts on everything women think feel and do
men who’ve never had sex or dated are experts in any and every sex dating and relationships topic
people who’ve never married are experts in marriage
people who’ve never had children are experts in child raising
people who’ve never been to America (but watch a lot of friends) are experts on America
people who’ve never known a person who wasn’t white are experts on the “black community.”

Talking out of ones ass seems to be the preferred form of communication for young people here.

The older people here have experienced it all — dating, sex, falling in love, falling out it love, getting married, getting divorced, making it work after the passion leaves, becoming a parent — you name it. That social media exists does not erase actual lived expericne.

I mean I’d ask you to tell me why you think we’re wrong and what your experience dating as 20 something is today but would you?

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Your dating sphere is still generally the region where you live.

Women's dating sphere went from the men that hanged out in the same places she does and actually had the courage and willingness to approach her, to most of the men in the city. This is obviously a huge difference. A man might be top dog in his favorite bar but he probably isn't the top dog in the whole city.This is obviously, a huge difference . Especially taking the hypergamous nature of women into account.

most people still meet other ways than OLD.

Like I already mentioned, the effect OLD and social media had on the SMP remains. It's also doubtful whether there are more people meeting offline among young people.

Your argument is like the employer who doesn’t want online job searching to exist because potential employees will see more choices and might chose to work for another company that’s better.

Yes exactly. You see how thats bad for the employer right?

[–]poppy_blu1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheJim663 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Data shows no more than 40% of couples met online

In general, not just young people.

If it’s bad for the employer, the employer needs to become more attractive to attract the best candidates. This is running a business in a free market.

Which means that things are worse for the average (employer) man.Also,in the employers case the demand is much larger than the supply which kinda saves his situation.It's a simple concept I don't know why you have trouble with this ( ok, I do know but let's pretend I don't 😂)

Just like dating in a free market.

But dating isn't a free market. It's heavily regulated market. Remove welfare, unfair divorce and child support laws, gender quotas,alimony, legalize financial abortion etc. Etc. And then we'll have a free market.

See, I'm a capitalist. You are a communist LMAO

[–]poppy_blu2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheJim663 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again, it’s the job of the people running the business to figure out how to be successful and make a profit.

Sure, hence TRP. However only an idiot wouldn't see how the whole situation is bad for the average man. Adapting to a reality doesn't mean that you are blind to it.

It has an impact on tradcels who want to the gubment to make women fuck them, but for everyone else, no impact what so ever.

Meanwhile the things I mentioned are direct interventions to the market from the government. The irony is beautiful.

mean I’d ask you to elaborate on what welfare, abortion and divorce laws have to do with you asking a girl out

These things remove part of a big appeal of men to women (money), part of the risk with dating more unstable (and thus more attractive) men and as a whole deincentivise the prioritization of relationships which is how most men get women.

I shouldn't have to explain how legalizing financial abortions would change the SMP right? Did the invention of female birth control affect the SMP?

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[–]poppy_blu1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Welfare:

in the US, welfare is limited, temporary and requires you to have a job. Average monthly collection is worth less 400 a month. Even in the most rural parts of the US you can’t begin to live on that.
less than 20% of HH receive some assistance. 100% of them are poor. Middle class people In america do not get public assistance. We are not Europe.
so, if you’re suggesting that fewer women in America will date because they can collect welfare, you’re dead wrong. Cause guess what? Poor people in America still date. A lot.

Alimony and child support:

this may come as a shock to you, but you’re only eligible for both of these things if you marry and divorce. 🤯
in fewer than 10 of divorces in the Us does a judge order alimony.
dating in the US does not require one to be married first. 🤯
so how does alimony and child support encourage women not to date men? I need some clarification on your take here. It’s not making much sense to me.

financial abortion

in the US, less than half of custodial parents get their full CS owed on time.
as many a 1/3 of US children whose parents aren’t married have zero contact with their biological father and get no support.
meaning financial abortion is already a thing here.
so again I need some clarification on how lack of financial abortion encourages women not to date men.
and again, if you’re using birth control, you can prevent unplanned pregnancies. Not rocket science.

Any other Americans out there who want to weight in here please do — if you can stop laughing that is.

[–]TheJim661 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

in the US, welfare is limited, temporary and requires you to have a job.

It still serves as a safety net and still takes away from the BB strategy.

so, if you’re suggesting that fewer women in America will date because they can collect welfare, you’re dead wrong.

They are less likely to choose the beta over the alpha because of it. I'm not saying the enter the nunnery .

this may come as a shock to you, but you’re only eligible for both of these things if you marry and divorce

Alimony, yes. Child support, no. How could you say such an "intelligent" thing? You think if I knock up a chick I'm in the clear if i don't marry her?

in fewer than 10 of divorces in the Us does a judge order alimony.

Alimony is just one factor. Divorce still penalizes the man and rewards the woman with the splitting of assets and child support.

dating in the US does not require one to be married first. 🤯

Marriage and the SMP are extremely interconnected. Not only is a very large part of dating done with the end goal of getting married, it also defines which people will be taken out of the general SMP and when. Do you also think that the introduction of no fault divorce had no effect on the SMP?

in the US, less than half of custodial parents get their full CS owed on time

Which is illegal.

as many a 1/3 of US children whose parents aren’t married have zero contact with their biological father and get no support.

Also illegal.

I understand that this might not be an issue for hoodrats but it's an issue for most men. Most men don't want to be fugitives from the police.

meaning financial abortion is already a thing here.

You did not just say that...

so again I need some clarification on how lack of financial abortion encourages women not to date men.

and again, if you’re using birth control, you can prevent unplanned pregnancies. Not rocket science.

And if you can have a financial abortion you can prevent paying for unwanted pregnancies. Great for men but forces women to be more careful about who they fuck with and would push them to put more emphasis on stability and relationships.

Any other Americans out there who want to weight in here please do — if you can stop laughing that is.

I don't know if they laughed but I certainly did 😂😂

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There is a 36 hour delay fetching comments.

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Nobody will give a clear answer as to why they were told looks don’t matter

The why doesn't matter and its not that people were told looks litterally dont matter at all. Its more that they were told women cared about personality more than looks.

nobody wants to improve themselves and take their share of the blame in their issues.

Most of the traits that women use to asses a mans attractiveness are things he has little to no control over such as height, facial structure, collarbone width, voice depth, dick size, hairlines ect.

Their solution is “big government gives me a gf” or sexual enslavement.

My solution is more investment in genetic engineering and cosmetic surgery so we can precisely control every important aspect of our and our offsprings physical appearance so that every man is more or less equally conventionally attractive.

[–]GridReXX0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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I never said it matters more than looks?

I also don’t see women here say that. It’s starting to feel like a strawman.

What I see women here say is that if a man has at least midrange pre-maxxed ~~looks~~ “born this way physical qualities,” he can improve his SMV by looks/style/grooming-maxxing and by improving his behavioral seductiveness aka his “masculine wiles.”

(And Bandit, as I said before, his “looks” isn’t just his height and face. It’s the combo of his physical frame and natural distribution of fat/musculature. It’s his “collar bone” and shoulder width. It’s his hair and his “voice”‘as well. Looks is a proxy for “born this way”. Someone like Dave Becks made up for his horrid voice by being cute and athletic. I make up for certain unfavorable traits with others. And what I didn’t make up for naturally I max to the max.)

Every other guy here who says he struggles with women also says, after some probing, “I’m shy and/or high-inhib and/or introverted with isolated interests and/or am mildly autistic and/or I’m not white but prefer white women.”

I’m sorry Bandit. “Looks” aren’t the primary reason he’s struggling. It’s something else. Too many “Average Joes” in real life are having gfs and hookups. It’s the non-normie factor that’s truly a handicap for these guys.

Only guys I’ll say it’s his looks for sure that the are the primary reason he’s losing the way he is are 2/10s who are 5’3 and living in a country where the male average height is 5’9.

[–]Bandit1741 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I never said it matters more than looks?

I know, I just mean in general I have heard it before that relative to men women were supposedly less shallow and valued personality more than looks.

(And Bandit, as I said before, his “looks” isn’t just his height and face. It’s the combo of his physical frame and natural distribution of fat/musculature. It’s his “collar bone” and shoulder width. It’s his hair and his “voice”‘as well.

ok, we agree on that then.

Someone like Dave Becks made up for his horrid voice by being cute and athletic. I make up for certain unfavorable traits with others. And what I didn’t make up for naturally I max to the max.)

Calling him just cute and athletic is underselling it imo. He's 6ft naturally broad shoulders and a face of a model. Most guys with voices even remotely similar to his wont come close to compensating.

It seems like the beauty and personality standards for being attractive are a lot more narrow/rigid for men than for women so its a lot harder/rarer for men to be naturally attractive and to be able to compensate for flaws they possess.

Every other guy here who says he struggles with women also says, after some probing, “I’m shy and/or high-inhib and/or introverted with isolated interests I’m sorry Bandit. “Looks” aren’t the primary reason he’s struggling. It’s something else.

Shy/inhibited is definitely a factor but I would argue that not being conventionally attractive leads to being shy/inhibited and without being genuinely confident in how you look its incredibly difficult to develop/convincingly pull off the seductively charming demeanor you described.

If a magic genie appeared before each incel and gave them the option to either increase their looks to be a 7/10 or to remove their shyness/introvertedness I think most would experience a greater improvement in their options from choosing the looks option.

[–]GridReXX2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Calling him just cute and athletic is underselling it imo. He's 6ft naturally broad shoulders and a face of a model. Most guys with voices even remotely similar to his wont come close to compensating.

It seems like the beauty and personality standards for being attractive are a lot more narrow/rigid for men than for women so its a lot harder/rarer for men to be naturally attractive and to be able to compensate for flaws they possess.

I chose an example of a man with a feminine and weak voice. Celebrities are great examples because you know who I'm talking about. I'm not going to link a pic or video of a friend just to prove a point. Unfortunately, people on this sub will dismiss any celebrity example because "celebrity" despite knowing exactly what the real comparison is. It's very boring. I'm sorry.

If a magic genie appeared before each incel and gave them the option to either increase their looks to be a 7/10 or to remove their shyness/introvertedness I think most would experience a greater improvement in their options from choosing the looks option.

So you're saying every man who is complaining on this sub about being introverted or aspie or shy or high-inhib or anti-social is a 6 or lower in raw pre-maxxed physical attributes?

Furthermore, I have never claimed that a man who is below a 5 in raw pre-maxxed physical attributes will be able to have a clear path forward for increasing his SMV.

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[–]TakeThePinkPill1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Male sexlessness is only going to get worse and by their own hand. Women want sex and are still present but can see the absolute catastrophe that is a bunch of able bodied people taking bad advice and avoiding self care trying to hoist themselves into vaginas. No. I don't care if women share men, stay sexless til the end of time, or try women.

It's better than rewarding low effort. I'd be in support of healthier talks and dating for both sides. I forever reject low value men of the manosphere getting a crumb of pussy until they get individually get their shit together.

I really hate this drive to make weaker guys even worse by filling their head up with low value ideals. "I have to be a self sufficient adult? Women's standards are TOO HIGH!"

Like stfu and move, we wanna see your friend with the job, a smile, and a good attitude with women.

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The comments are filled with pure delusion, women cannot even survive to the natural term of their lives without men, actually they wouldn’t live beyond a week or 2 without men around. Now before some smart ass says but men cant reproduce without women, yes and neither can women without the other, but we are talking about survival not reproduction, keep that important distinction in mind.

All the essential infrastructure like sewage, power, oil drilling, mining, water, logistics chain trucking, etc is basically all men, the very minuscule amount of women if any are in administrative or office jobs there, which are not even required. This is what makes sure the world runs, not those office jobs in management, tech or HR. Even if those places went away civilisation would be doing fine, but take away the essential infrastructure and you are done. All the work that keeps civilisation functional is done by men.

If thanos snapped his fingers and made all men just vanish your power plants would stop, no power means no heat, cooking, gas or water because they are driven by power. There would be no food because women don’t grow or farm any and neither do they drive trucks or take part in the logistics chain. Only these few reasons will cause society to collapse and women cannot even run the infrastructure let alone any break downs, disasters or repairs that spring up, women just don’t have the actual physical upper body and grip strength to do it.

Since civilised areas are functionally handicapped and you can get no food, water or resources from them, you basicallyhave to move into the wild and there is were women are truly fucked. See bears grylls the island episode where they took these strong independent women💪🏼💁🏻‍♀️💅🏻 that need no man and put them on an island. They would be dead within a few days if the team didn’t intervene and evacuate them.

Men have civilised and made the world so safe to the point where women are delusional enough to think you don’t need men. Women feel so entitled to their way of life that they think this is the bare minimum, on top of this they lay physical standards that eliminate 99% of men directly with just primary filters without getting to know if they would be good partners. Men literally carry women and ensure their existence and women still think they are above men.

I actually agree with gist of this comment.

Here’s where OP loses me:

Since when are all of the code monkey and office jockey men on this sub suddenly “of one accord” with blue collar men?

I also find it interesting he uses the contributions of the blue collar male worker in an attempt to say, “and this is why women need to date men romantically” (the OP is about dating standards). But I’m confused as to why he’s using them to make his point. Every blue collar average joe I know has a wife and kids or a gf and kids or a baby mama or a gf. Those men are dating and procreating. So technically they are being “rewarded” for their manly contributions or whatever. Women are dating and mating with those dudes just fine.

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if it’s so easy for men, why don’t more of them choose these careers?

you’re also ignoring that there is a psychological and emotional toll these jobs take on people. it’s not as much physical labor, but it is still labor.

do you think dealing with the most disadvantaged individuals in our society and figuring out where to home them, where and how to get them resources they need, how to make sure they can be functioning members of society, working through whatever it is that’s stopping them is easy? dealing with individuals that nobody, not even their own families, want to deal with is easy? dealing with individuals who have experienced extremely traumatic events and trying to heal them is easy?

and this doesn’t even include healthcare, which is a dominated by women; even on a global scale. imagine if women stopped working in healthcare, who would take care of you in hospitals and clinics? men? there’s not anywhere near enough of them to go around.

if it’s so easy, why don’t you and more men do it? why aren’t there more males in healthcare and humanities?

[–]Special-Armadillo-992 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men don't do these jobs because of social stigma and there being more female applicants.

A teacher for example out of all the applicants 90% would be women (totally made up just spitballing) women like easy jobs and line up for them but there's not enough room for men because there's a limited amount of positions.

All men would do easy work but since all women ONLY do easy work there's simply not enough positions to go around, so since men are willing to do harder work, they end up doing that.

If women applied for difficult jobs as much as men more men would be doing the easy shit.

There'd be less patients to take care of in the hospital by half as well. Men used to learn via apprenticeship and that's simply apprentice under experienced officials but there's jobs men do that must women literally aren't physically capable of.

And we're not even going into interests here. More women are interested in the subject of humanities and Healthcare than are men but that's not evidence that it is difficult for men.

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[–]thelajestic7 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I disagree with his whole premise.

Firstly he claims that every single worker in these fields is a man and women literally only do the desk job aspect, which is patently false.

Secondly.. if all men suddenly died, there would be half the amount of people on the planet therefore plenty women around to do those jobs. There might be some teething issues and infrastructure issues at first while people got trained up but it would be workable. As evidenced during ww1 and 2 when the bulk of the male workforce went away to fight and so women joined the workforce and did these jobs. In many places in the world women are actually banned from doing jobs that they'd be perfectly capable of doing - if men all suddenly vanished then there'd be no obstacles. Suddenly there'd be no men around to harass women in male-dominated workforces, so women who were previously put off joining them now could do so.

And sure, we'd all die off due to not being able to birth any more people, but it certainly wouldn't be the doom and gloom that comment suggests.

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I literally can't find stats for it. I've done some rough calculations for WW2 based on how many men serving died and what % that was of population etc which suggests around 47% or so of men served (not sure how accurate it is though sorry, it's surprisingly difficult to find actual stats on this!), but this will be a higher percentage of the workforce because obviously population will count people too young, old or infirm to serve or work - therefore it would be a majority of the workforce.

This is for the UK though, I can't imagine it would be that high for US but I don't know, and I don't know if US had the same dynamic of lots of women joining the workforce.

And I don’t think the reason women don’t choose to be plumbers or garbage men is harassment, they just think it’s icky. And that’s ok lol

Yeah, I absolutely don't think it's the only reason. Plenty men also don't want to be plumbers or garbage collectors because they find it gross or whatever and that also applies to women. However I know women who have left certain fields because the guys they worked with were total dicks. And some people will say that they're just being too sensitive but depending on the job, your coworkers not respecting you can kill you. And when you've got women in the army being raped and killed by their colleagues, what incentive is there for women to go into those fields? Because if it comes to a war and people have to die, then those shitbags should be the first ones thrown down for cannon fodder and the rest of us should leave them to it.

Women do currently work in waste collection and as plumbers etc, just in smaller numbers which are growing. The fewer barriers there are to women doing these jobs (and you see it all the time on this sub with men being completely dismissive of women, saying they're too weak and shouldn't do those jobs etc. If people on this sub say it then you can be damn sure there are hiring managers with the same attitude) the more women will start doing them.

[–]MasterTeacher1232 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]thelajestic1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah in America I don’t think 47% of the working age male population went to WW1 or WW2. I don’t have the exact numbers but That’s kind off absurd, maybe 10% actually left. So I don’t think one could say “well men left during WW2 and society didn’t collapse” as an example. The vast majority of men were still here doing what they always do.

I don't live in the US, I live in the UK. Which is why I used that as an example. Since it worked well here though I see no reason to assume it wouldn't be the same there.

I also think it’s important to say actual barriers like you legally can’t do this and someone being mean is completely different.

If that someone "being mean" is the person doing the hiring, then you aren't going to get hired at all. Pretty effective barrier. And being raped, assaulted, harassed - all fairly effective barriers to most people.

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[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So you agree that men don’t need women at all, and sex isn’t important then? Please tell that to Incels and all the men in this sub proclaiming that it’s torture that they can’t get casual sex with a flick of their thumbs.

I always feel like the men insisting so strongly that “men do everything” just want women to apologize for existing, and want to take credit for the actions of other men simply for having a penis too. I can take credit for their actions too: look at me, humans built society and I’m human too, therefore you should appreciate me!!

I get that some guys want women to be like “oh yes, wow, men are so amazing and do everything, thank you so much, manly man”… while you insult us and tell us we as women are basically worthless to the human race and have never contributed anything beyond having a cunt.

I certainly disagree with that view. The fact that some men expect appreciation for the actions of other men, while also failing to appreciate women in any way really just doesn’t impress me at all. It’s just digging for undeserved validation. I’ll save my praise for the specific people who have done things worthy of praise, not for random men begging for validation based on the actions of others.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women only make no contribution to essential work of you ignore women’s contributions and pretend that fucking and giving birth is all any woman has ever done. How about teaching? Nursing? Administrative work? Police and emergency dispatch? Being doctors/medics/midwives/healers? Clothing production? Human socialization and community building (since solitary confinement is considered actual torture, perhaps you could consider women’s community building a little more essential than just a fun thing)? And more historically: Food preparation and preservation, running and maintaining farms while the husband was out raping and pillaging around in some dumb war, fabric and clothing production, preservation and passing along of culture. These are the typical majority female contributions— not even including the many many many women who contributed in traditionally masculine ways.

You don’t get that it’s insulting to erase all of women’s work and accomplishments for all of history to insist that women’s’ sole value to humanity is just one body part, and that women have contributed nothing beyond that? Or that nothing women do is essential, so their entire existence is superfluous and provides nothing more than mere frivolous entertainment to men?

And then, after erasing everything women have done, demanding women “recognize” (and let’s be honest here, you mean praise) men for everything?

I can’t help you if you can’t see that it is absurd to expect Men in general to be granted recognition for the specific actions of some men, but then to deny recognition to women for anything other than being sexual holes (which men regard as “used up” if they are used by too many men) incubators (which men do not respect women for, since it is a basic biological process and could be done by a woman in a coma).

And likewise, if all men in general deserve recognition for being plumbers and policemen and construction workers, then men equally all deserve shame for war and murder and rape.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I never said women do nothing of importance. You're strawmanning.

Not a strawman at all. This is a direct quote from you:

If women disappeared worst case scenario would be no more babies.

So yes, you did specifically claim women do nothing essential besides babies.

Women go to war rape and murder too. Suggesting that's a man thing is ridiculous.

Interesting how you’re glad to give women credit for the bad, but not for the good they’ve done. Lol, so incredibly typical. And I’m sure you still don’t see this as insulting.

So yeah, no, women should not provide men not doing these vital tasks with free vicarious validation just because men have the same genitals as the specific men doing important jobs. Men who are not essential worker themselves deserve as much recognition as women… or less, since at least most women have babies which you at least deign to consider useful. Men are free to continue patting themselves on the back for work other men do, of course: I can’t stop you.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So yes, you did specifically claim women do nothing essential besides babies.

Nope that doesn't compute. Men can do all the things women can EXCEPT have babies. This doesn't mean they do nothing of value, just that all the things they do are easily replicated by men.

So yeah, no, women should not provide men not doing these vital tasks with free vicarious validation just because men have the same genitals as the specific men doing important jobs.

I never said they should I said they should acknowledge men do most of the vital work not congratulate every man they see for it.

Men who are not essential worker themselves deserve as much recognition as women…

K.

or less, since at least most women have babies which you at least deign to consider useful. Men are free to continue patting themselves on the back for work other men do, of course: I can’t stop you.

It seems you just don't like to read

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men can do all the things women can EXCEPT have babies. This doesn't mean they do nothing of value, just that all the things they do are easily replicated by men.

And specifically which jobs have never had any women doing them? Because if one woman did the job, then it’s pretty evident that women are not incapable of doing it if men were absent.

If you want women to recognize men for the jobs that only men are biologically capable of, then please tell me which those are, specifically. Because if the only role you’ll be willing to recognize women for are the ones they are uniquely biologically capable of, then it’s only fair to recognize men for the tasks they alone are biologically capable of. And that seems to already be satisfied: men and women both readily acknowledge that men produce sperm, which is also necessary for the production of babies. So why are you complaining about recognition?

I said they should acknowledge men do most of the vital work

Even as you continue to acknowledge none of the vital work women have done.

For example, here’s one of the few tasks you might possibly be willing to acknowledge women do: childcare. You do not seem to believe this work is essential to basic survival, but think about it a little more carefully. If women vanished tomorrow, how many men do you think would be able to work their important manly man jobs if their kids weren’t being watched by someone? Women’s childcare labor has always freed up men to be able to do other work. Women are stay at home parents, nursery workers, nurses and teachers. If women weren’t around to be those things, then men would either have to pick up the slack and do those jobs, or they’d have to leave their kids alone all day. Huge numbers of men would need to drop their jobs and care for all the kids in society, or many little kids would die. Because seriously, babies and little kids cannot be left alone and unsupervised for hours and hours safely.

I predict that a lot of fathers would stay home from work instead of leaving their babies and little kids home alone all day. Without women to do the childcare, huge numbers of men wouldn’t be able to work their essential, and apparently men-only, jobs you’re focused on.

And if this isn’t for a pat on the back (which again, I’m quite sure it is, since you’re so incredibly reluctant to acknowledge anything positive about women on the flip side), then what is the benefit of this “recognition” you crave from women? In normal life, recognition is a form of praise. You want women to “recognize” men for doing specific jobs: what does “recognition” look like to you?

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The point I'm making isn't that there are jobs women cannot do, although there are physical jobs women would find harder and maybe even impossible. The point is that men do the difficult but necessary jobs and women do not.

These jobs are harder and have a steeper learning curve than the jobs performed by the majority of women.

If men disappeared the tiny fraction of women who work in fields like plumbing construction electrician etc would not be able to teach other women those jobs fast enough to keep the lights on, the toilets flushing and houses in working order.

The world would go to shit literally incredibly quickly.

If women disappeared this would not be an issue. Men make up the majority of long haul truckers as well, which is not an easy job, driving that size of machine safely takes practice and skill.

So the food deliveries etc would not happen. You'd have to get everything locally from farmers who again are majority men, so that wouldn't work either.

So women would likely starve in their dark shit smelling homes.

None of these things would be an issue for men since they already do all of these jobs.

The jobs women do are not vital to civilizations existence.

Recognition could be as simple as literally just admitting men are right. The opposite of what you're doing right now. You're writhing and contorting instead of just admitting men do the vital jobs.

Childcare is easy. School is basically daycare and teaching isn't a hard job, it can be stressful but it's not physically taxing in the slightest.

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And your full explanation here is just confirmation of what I said before: you genuinely do not recognize or respect women’s contributions, and believe nothing women have ever done is essential to humanity. You believe men could easily replace women, and that women have no unique abilities or contributions to societ beyond being incubators. In your view, women have never done anything beyond easy lazy irrelevant fun-time stuff. Never anything important.

And anything even remotely valuable that’s associated with women, you dismiss as trivial. That you think teaching requires no skill, or that nursing is apparently something you can learn in a day is just mind-boggling to me, but I guess it’s pretty bog-standard old misogyny: men are important, and women are just dumb baby-making machines. Thanks for reminding me.

The jobs women do are not vital to civilizations existence.

You continue to fail to recognize most of women’s work through history: farming (women also worked farms, although you seem to imagine a farmer’s wife’s job was just to sit around and eat bon-bons), food preservation and clothing manufacturing, in particular. I know it makes you feel good to imagine women owe men a great debt of gratitude and yet are ungrateful children… and yet here you are being incredibly dismissive and ungrateful to women. Why do you demand recognition when it is too difficult to do it?

Recognition could be as simple as literally just admitting men are right. The opposite of what you're doing right now. You're writhing and contorting instead of just admitting men do the vital jobs.

Men do a lot of vital jobs, and women also do many. I can easily tell you that a majority of fire fighters, police officers, military personnel, construction workers, and infrastructure maintainers are male. But that is very different statement from the value statement you want to hear: that men are more important and more valuable than women, and that women have contributed nothing to humanity, and have no place except being sexual receptacles and man-factories.

It is exactly this is exactly what I thought you wanted: praise. As you said earlier, you want women to “have some fucking gratitude”, lol. You want women to praise men for being born men, because of the work of some of them did, but meanwhile deny women any credit for any of their contributions to society, as if all of society was built entirely without women’s effort. You simply want women to grovel in the dirt telling men how important they are, while telling women they are basically cute housepets made for men’s enjoyment. And I’m not sorry to say I won’t do this: I have basic human dignity, so I’m not going to tell you what you want so desperately to hear.

One thing is certainly clear: one thing women priovided to men for far too long was baseless ego stroking even as they simultaneously get shit on for doing work that men demand of them.

So I will agree with you on one point: the feminine work that men want women to do is apparently of very low value to men. Since men do not recognize it or appreciate it, it is clearly not worth doing. If recognition is only owed to important work, then it is clear that women have been wasting time doing such useless, unrecognized things.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You want women to praise men for being born men,

Please point out where I said this. I specifically said all that recognizing needed to entail was admitting that men work MORE of the jobs that are vital to maintaining civilization.

How you can read that statement and your take away is that I want women to praise men is just preposterous. Makes zero logical sense probably because it's based on how you feel and not on reality.

because of the work of some of them did,

I'm not telling you to go to every man and thank them for being vital to civilization, I want women to appreciate that the reason civilization exists is because men somewhere are working hard to maintain it and have some gratitude instead of behaving like spoiled children who take everything for granted.

but meanwhile deny women any credit for any of their contributions to society,

I didn't deny women anything. I never said women didn't do important stuff i said men do more of the important stuff.

You seem to think that unless I say women and men contribute just as much to society as each other I want you to worship men and I think women are meaningless.

That makes zero sense.

as if all of society was built entirely without women’s effort.

Never said that.

You simply want women to grovel in the dirt telling men how important they are,

Only if you consider saying "men work MORE of the jobs that are vital to civilization" groveling in the dirt.

while telling women they are basically cute housepets made for men’s enjoyment.

This is getting so far into your own emotional interpretation and not related to anything I said.

And I’m not sorry to say I won’t do this: I have basic human dignity, so I’m not going to tell you what you want so desperately to hear.

Who said I was desperate? Women can keep behaving like spoiled children, apparently that's their version of "human dignity"

One thing is certainly clear: one thing women priovided to men for far too long was baseless ego stroking even as they simultaneously get shit on for doing work that men demand of them.

Or, women used to be appreciative of men's work and somewhere along the way they lost the ability or desire to be appreciative.

So I will agree with you on one point: the feminine work that men want women to do is apparently of very low value to men. Since men do not recognize it or appreciate it, it is clearly not worth doing.

So your criteria for what is worth doing is based entirely on what men think is good? Do you not have any of your own ideas on what is good?

If recognition is only owed to important work, then it is clear that women have been wasting time doing such useless, unrecognized things.

Sure if you believe the only recognition that matters is from men, and what women think matters is irrelevant.

I personally think men and women differ on what they find important in many respects and one opinion isn't necessarily more right than the other unless we're talking specifics. For example, men not caring about fashion doesn't mean fashion is not important to women.

Men working the jobs that keep society going is not a subjective statement though so there can be no argument that what men find is important is irrelevant in that regard unless you think society is unimportant

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Please point out where I said this. I specifically said all that recognizing needed to entail was admitting that men work MORE of the jobs that are vital to maintaining civilization.

Here’s a direct quote from you:

If men disappeared the entire structure of society would collapse… If women disappeared worst case scenario would be no more babies… Have some fucking gratitude.

Sound like you want women to say “thank you so much for doing everything while we did nothing useful but make more men”. The word gratitude means “to give thanks for”.

You want women to give thanks to men for something without praising (ie saying something positive about) them? That’s nonsensical.

Who said I was desperate?

You keep demanding it, and are getting pissy that I’m not telling you what you want to hear. I already told you that I acknowledge that men are the majority of workers in a number of fields: that is an objective fact, and recognition. What you want, and are so desperate to get, is women’s praise.

What you want women to say isn't “yes, men do important jobs”, but rather “yes, men do much more important jobs than women all across the board, and we women should be more grateful for all you did for us, because women are lazy and only do stupid easy jobs that don’t matter. We’re sorry we are so terrible to you men, because you are right that men alone are responsible for civilization, and we women are unimportant mooches”.

Something like that. I’m not interested in lying to you to give you what you want. And yes, it would be a lie because I don’t agree with your belief that men alone are vital to civilization and women are superfluous. To believe that, you have to either ignore everything women have ever done, or redefine the word “civilization” to mean just “stuff men do without women”.

Women can keep behaving like spoiled children,

There it is again. You really cannot find it in you to respect or value women or women’s contributions. If women don’t say “men are more important, thank you so much for doing everything for us since we are so incapable”, then you call us children. But, if they do say it, then it’s agreeing with your view that… women are basically helpless useless babies who need benevolent men to take care of them. Either we agree with you that women are incapable children who need men to take care of them, or we disagree with you… and that means we’re nothing more than children. It’s a trap either way.

It’s almost like you believe women aren’t capable of anything useful, and anything women do will confirm it. Since that is the game you want to play, it’s not worth women participating. You can call us children if you want, and it doesn’t change any of the facts about how women have contributed through the ages.

But if you believe men do everything, and women are like children, then by all means, seek your recognition from other men, because women’s opinions shouldn’t matter. I don’t demand the gratitude of children I don’t know, even though adults do basically everything. It’s rather immature (and petty and cruel) to demand recognition from the children you think can’t do anything important, and lecture them on how unimportant you think they are.

Sure if you believe the only recognition that matters is from men, and what women think matters is irrelevant.

If women don’t matter to civilization, then neither does women’s recognition. Seek your praise from the capable people who matter, not the lowly child-birthing units. I don’t even know why you want the praise of people you don’t appreciate, view as incapable, and see as the equivalent of children.

For example, men not caring about fashion doesn't mean fashion is not important to women.

When I mentioned clothing, I wasn’t taking about fashion. I meant the production of cloth and clothing, both of which were vital technologies needed for humans to survive outside of the tropics. Every culture you recognize as civilized required cloth for a variety of uses. You are not naked most of the time because clothing is important. And it was an extremely female dominated industry for centuries. Did you know, for example, that sails men used for traveling via sail boats (used for war, trade, and diplomacy) were also almost entirely manufactured by women for much of history? No, of course you didn’t, because you incorrectly believe that women are nothing more than useless baby making machines who do nothing more than non-vital things like consume fashion and have never done anything that actually benefits civilization.

Men working the jobs that keep society going is not a subjective statement though

It is subjective when you systematically define jobs that matter as only jobs building infrastructure, serving the public defense (something that, if men disappeared, would also be much much easier to do as a job, by the way) or running factory farms while systematically dismissing human nurturing, health, and childcare roles. I don’t know why you think, for example, how society is “kept going” without childcare, but maybe you think you can just throw children in a giant bucket without any childcare or supervision, and they’ll somehow magically grow up to be functional citizens continue your civilization. Well, I guess just the male children, in your case, since the female ones will contribute nothing to the keeping society going.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When I said have some gratitude I was more speaking to you personally because you seem to want to downplay how much men do. If you weren't so insistent that women are just as vital I wouldn't have phrased it that way.

Either we agree with you that women are incapable children who need men to take care of them,

Another strawman. I never said women weren't capable of doing the important jobs, I said they DON'T. That's their choice. Currently men are more important to keeping civilization going, women could choose to join in and do the hard and dirty jobs, they just don't seem to want to.

And it was an extremely female dominated industry for centuries.

Because it's easier than the work men were doing at the time.

Did you know, for example, that sails men used for traveling via sail boats (used for war, trade, and diplomacy) were also almost entirely manufactured by women for much of history?

Yes I've heard that before.

No, of course you didn’t, because you incorrectly believe that women are nothing more than useless baby making machines who do nothing more than non-vital things like consume fashion and have never done anything that actually benefits civilization.

You're too emotional about this topic to have any sort of rational discussion.

systematically dismissing human nurturing, health, and childcare roles.

Because those roles are either less important to society as a whole or not as female dominated as the infrastructure jobs are dominated by men.

There's plenty of men in the Healthcare field so it's not logical to give women most of the credit for that.

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When I said have some gratitude I was more speaking to you personally

Um, no you weren’t. It was in reply to another commenter? And why should she or anyone else show some “fucking gratitude” to men in general?

Because it's easier than the work men were doing at the time.

So what? Whether a job is physically demanding has nothing to do with whether it is vital to civilization. It’s like you think using your muscles is what makes something important. Making cloth and clothing were important to civilization , even though it didn’t require women to be capable of lifting hundreds of pounds.

And if muscles were the most important thing for civilization, why don’t you show some ducking gratitude to oxen and horses? They pulled way more weight than any man ever did, and it was incredibly vital to civilization for centuries.

You're too emotional about this topic to have any sort of rational discussion.

Says the man who made a petulant demand for gratitude and calls women children if they don’t agree with you. Your argument from the start has been that you want women to say empty words to satisfy your emotions. There is no other purpose behind wanting women to “recognize” that men supposedly do everything except to stroke insecure men’s egos. The men who actually do the work already know their own personal value, and certainly don’t insist women offer up “fucking gratitude” to men in general for their own work. They’re usually pretty proud of going well above and beyond what most men do. Because again, “men” do not deserve gratitude, as you insisted, and it is childish to demand such “recognition” for your own ego.

You think I’m being emotional because you are feeling feelings. Sure, I’m using emotional language here, but I’m certainly not upset to see you keep shifting your argument to try to prove men are more important than women.

It’s also always funny to me when obviously agitated men on this sub start trying to shame women for “being emotional” when they’re unable to get what they want. They’re never quite self-aware enough to recognize when they’re projecting their own frustration (an emotion, if you weren’t clear).

There's plenty of men in the Healthcare field so it's not logical to give women most of the credit for that.

Why do you still insist on giving “credit” to men or women in general based on the sexes of the people doing the job, rather than giving credit to the actual people doing the job? Women don’t deserve “credit” for being the majority of nurses or for being a sizeable fraction of doctors… nurses deserve credit for being nurses and doctors deserve credit for being doctors. Women don’t deserve credit for nurses being predominantly women, and you don’t owe women gratitude for most nurses being women.

Because again, your whole position is really just a weird demand for credit for work other people have done based solely on having one incidental characteristic in common with them. Men don’t deserve credit for developing the polio vaccine; Salk does.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't when it's not in a convo about which gender would be worse off if the other half disappeared. You're acting like this convo started because I just had a bone to pick.

It’s literally a conversation started by a woman agreeing with the gist of a comment that’s basically what you want women to agree with:

“Men have civilised and made the world so safe to the point where women are delusional enough to think you don’t need men.”

“ All the essential infrastructure like sewage, power, oil drilling, mining, water, logistics chain trucking, etc is basically all men, the very minuscule amount of women if any are in administrative or office jobs there, which are not even required.”

“ women cannot even survive to the natural term of their lives without men, actually they wouldn’t live beyond a week or 2 without men around.”

So yeah, you already got what you wanted from a woman, but it’s not enough… yeah, you got a bone to pick.

I mean, I agree with the fact that men do the majority for a lot of the jobs critical to the immediate day to day functioning of society… but I don’t seen any reason to show them gratitude like you seem to expect, or why you think it should be specifically women who need to show gratitude (but not other men who also don’t “keep civilization going”), or why you are so determined to shit on everything women contribute (claiming women’s only contribution is “making babies”, or that childcare and nursing are easy so they aren’t important, and that really men do some health care anyways, so women’s contributions don’t really count there either).

As I said earlier, I do not object to recognizing that men are a majority of all sorts of important positions… but that wasn’t enough for you. You continued still to demand that women as a collective are acting like children if they don’t give some kind of thanks to men as a collective for this work. And why? What possible thing would that affect?

The only possible benefit of women showing gratitude to men for the work of some men… would be to soothe the feelings of insecure men. It has never been about facts: it was always about requiring women to give all men a gold star of appreciation… while also making sure women knew you sure as hell don’t appreciate them back.

That women do not deserve appreciation or recognition in any way at all is 100% the message you communicated for me. And of course, it’s your right to view women this way, and I have no interest in petulantly demanding better. But I disagree with how you view women, and it’s certainly depressing to me to see how some men view women.

Literally just saying men work the jobs that would be more vital in a world where the opposite sex dissappeared.

No, you literally said “If women disappeared worst case scenario would be no more babies… Have some fucking gratitude.”

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. This was never about facts or about caring whether some woman needed to learn how to feel gratitude (for men specifically, apparently)— it was always about women appreciating men in general from the start. Your earliest reference gratitude wasn’t in response to a woman saying anything denying men do important jobs. It was when you said “some recognition would be nice” in response to someone said this:

It's not like men do it out of goodness of their hearts, these are jobs they get paid for, so why do they expect to be worshipped for it lol

… as statement tacitly acknowledging men do these jobs. Then when another commenter replied with this:

Except as Grid pointed out blue collar workers have no problem getting women. Neither do white collar workers with useful jobs (I.e doctors)… It’s always office worker men with jobs that are pretty irrelevant to society that complain about this shit

… you spontaneously brought up the idea that it is women, specifically, who need to acknowledge men’s contributions:

I don't mean getting women when I say recognition I mean women actually acknowledging men's contributions

So no, you weren’t scolding her for denying any facts when you brought up ghe idea that women need to show men gratitude, because she hadn’t said anything denying that men work these jobs. She in fact directly acknowledged that men do these jobs in her comment when she talked about how blue collar and white collar workers with useful jobs aren’t the ones making demands for “recognition”.

Look at what is actually written. You demanded gratitude for men from women, not from people in general, and not to the specific people doing important jobs, in response to a woman who had so far said nothing like “men didn't do the majority of vital tasks”.

You’re twisting around a lot to deny what you actually said, because the actual progression of this conversation was you demanding women give men gratitude in response to people denying that the men who actually do these jobs don’t need or want blanket praise for men, as if all men did everything and no women did anything.

So again, why do you think it is specifically women who should show gratitude to the men who actually do these jobs? And why do you insist on disrespecting women so aggressively (like by claiming women are nothing more than baby makers) when demanding this gratitude?

It’s not because you like facts, because you are way too worked up about the idea that somewhere, a woman might not “recognize” men enough for your tastes. I think it’s because you want women to stroke men in general’s egos, regardless of whether that individual man contributed anything vital to civilization. As I said before, what you want is for women to say “thank you men for doing everything for us women— we’re sorry we’re so weak and helpless, but we women NEED men because men are all so wonderful”.

It is childish to demand gratitude like this, but especially so if you personally are just as non-vital to civilization as you believe women are.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

that’s factually not when you demanded women should show gratitude to men.

Again, she was lying and saying women and men worked equally vital jobs then she asked me what I wanted from women and I said to show some gratitude by acknowledging men do work more of the vital jobs.

That is a completely logical back and forth but you decided I meant that every woman should just go to the nearest man and thank them. A complete perversion of what I actually said and why I said it.

You didn't see anything. You felt you had an emotional response and decided that I intended for you to have that response and that your response was my goal. Completely senseless.

you said more than enough for me to get the gist.

Most people by gist mean summary but you mean you think you understand what I really meant even though I tried to correct you several times.

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again, she was lying and saying women and men worked equally vital jobs

No, at that point she hadn’t said anything yet. She said that after you said women should show men gratitude.

You made this comment:

I don't mean getting women when I say recognition I mean women actually acknowledging men's contributions

before anyone in that thread said anything about women’s contributions. Nobody had yet claimed women “equally work vital jobs”. It’s one of your first comments in the thread.

You demanded women owe men recognition multiple times before any claims about women’s contributions at all. So no, you did not demand recognition in response to any claims of women’s work, because nobody had said anything about women’s work yet. You demanded recognition, from women specifically, in response to a woman questioning why and exactly what kind of silly “acknowledgment” you were demanding women in general give to men in general.

Read from the start of the thread. You are not correct about what you responded to, or what made you demand women as a group “acknowledge” men as a group.

you decided I meant that every woman should just go to the nearest man and thank them.

I did not “decide” this. You repeatedly expressed that “women” should acknowledge “men” for doing these jobs, and repeatedly dismissed any notion that most men don’t do those jobs as irrelevant.

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men actually do the vast majority of vital jobs.

The correct statement for what you meant, then, is that the majority of vital jobs are done by people who are men. Men also do loads of non-vital jobs, just like women. It is clear, though, that you expected women specifically to thank men for doing vital jobs. And you said it a lot of times, so there’s no confusion: you repeatedly said women (but not men doing non-vital jobs) owe men gratitude.

And when people asked you what that’s supposed to look like, you just doubled down on repeating yourself and scolding everyone for not reading your mind. You had every opportunite to clarify what “gratitude” means, and why you wanted it to come only from women.

I never said every man has a vital job YOU supplied that meaning all on your own

No, because you were the one insisting that women owe men gratitude for doing the majority of jobs. You framed your whole discussion as women vs men.

I don't really care in what order what occurred.

You suddenly don’t care because the actual conversation on the page contradicted the new narrative you were trying to build, where you claim you only really demanded gratitude in response to a woman claiming women equally did vital work, which you disagree with (in part, because you do not see recognize women’s work as important either historically or today.)

[–]Special-Armadillo-991 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, because you were the one insisting that women owe men gratitude for doing the majority of jobs. You framed your whole discussion as women vs men.

And in that discussion men deserve more credit than do women. There's no need to specifying that not every man does a job that's vital.

You suddenly don’t care because the actual conversation on the page contradicted the new narrative you were trying to build,

I don't believe you that it does but i don't care to go through every one of the 50+ comments to prove you wrong.

where you claim you only really demanded gratitude in response to a woman claiming women equally did vital work, which you disagree with

Because it's not true.

(in part, because you do not see recognize women’s work as important either historically or today.)

Again, you're supplying your own emotional reactions. This is why I don't care to prove you wrong, you'll just try to tell me what I meant because it's what you feel I meant.

The correct statement for what you meant, then, is that the majority of vital jobs are done by people who are men.

Easier way to say that is men do most of the vital jobs.

Men also do loads of non-vital jobs, just like women.

Sure but I'm referring to the whole not the individual

t is clear, though, that you expected women specifically to thank men for doing vital jobs.

No it's not clear because that's not what I expected and when asked what that would look like I specifically said it could be as simple as admitting men do more of the vital jobs. That society would collapse if men disappeared.

I said that. In a response to being asked what gratitude would look like.

So you're feelings about what I meant aren't relevant.

And you said it a lot of times, so there’s no confusion: you repeatedly said women (but not men doing non-vital jobs) owe men gratitude.

I didn't repeatedly say that.

[–]badgersonice1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

men deserve more credit than do women. There's no need to specifying that not every man does a job that's vital.

Again, why do men deserve credit? MEN didn’t do those jobs, men who did those jobs did those jobs. It is not reasonable to demand women recognize men for the work of only some men.

Sure but I'm referring to the whole not the individual

Yes! I know! You are referring to men as a whole, and you want women as a whole to recognize men as a whole for the contributions of some men. Men do not deserve credit for the good actions of some men any more than they deserve blame for the harmful actions of some men.

it could be as simple as admitting men do more of the vital jobs. That society would collapse if men disappeared.

Yes. And that is what is ridiculous. It is ridiculous to demand women specifically to acknowledge men as a whole. And as I’ve asked before, why is it that you want this? is it because you feel women don’t give men anything in general enough respect for the things some men have done?

This is why is sounds like what you want is women to appreciate the male sex for being born the right sex.

I didn't repeatedly say that.

You didn’t repeatedly ask for recognition, acknowledgement, gratitude, etc? The thread is still up, man. Nobody here disputed the work that men do, so again, what exactly is it you are fishing for and, more importantly, do you understand why you are fishing for it?

Because, for example I have already acknowledged that many of the jobs done mostly by men (but not by all men) are vital, but you seem deeply unsatisfied by that response. Clearly mere acknowledgment isn’t sufficient for what you want. You want more than that, and I suspect I know what and why.

But you’ve just been saying “that’s not what I really mean” for a while, so I don’t get why this is so important to you.

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Theres the descriptive claims and the prescriptive claims. There is also a huge layer of satire and hyperbole on top of typical incel discourse (which I am making a distinction between incel and blackpill, not every blackpiller is an incel) that is used for comedic effect, but there are autists who take it at face value.

On a descriptive level incel discourse operates with a base worldview very similar to redpill. The difference is mostly in which perspective it is being looked at from. The same way a factory owner and a worker may have a capitalist worldview, their life experiences are going to be different, especially when you compare that to the homeless person, which would be analogous to the incel.

I think blackpill positions are heavily strawmanned as well as people tend to take on the delusional extremist positions as an easy win.

The same way a manospherian may dismiss all of feminism, including legitimate points, because of the wackos crying about manspreading and the like.

Now, you can disagree with the prescriptive claims, aka "Lay down and rot", but that doesnt negate the descriptive claims that are often backed up by scientific data.

Most people, if being intellectually honest, know that looks do effect dating, and even many facets outside of it. But there are also many who heavily downplay it and even deny it in real life. There is also a talk to be had about the scale at which it matters.

The descriptive steelman claims of the blackpill attempt to quantify how much looks matter, in which ways they do, and which qualities weigh most heavily in the SMV calculation (and to a lesser extent other qualities of SMV outside of). The same way two people may agree racism exists to some extent, but disagree heavily on the scale of it.

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I don’t see physically attractive men who are high inhib socially awkward introverts “slaying” anywhere.

Introversion, low sociability, and high-inhibition are the #1 differentiators between men who run through lots of women and men who don’t.

Extro men have the most sex and opportunities with women. The shy cute model is going to get less pussy than his “fly boy agent” who’s maybe less “gorgeous” but is more bombastic, outgoing, social, stylish, and swaggy. Aka he approaches wayyy more women.

I just don’t think we agree that Black Pillers and incels are struggling the way they do expressly because of how they look.

Hell I’ve seen some of them and they aren’t unattractive!

If his looksmatch normie equivalent is getting women and he isn’t... it’s not the looks. It’s the lack of normieness and the defeatist attitude.

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Everything and anything puts you at an disadvantage for someone who doesn’t like it.

I’m a black woman. If I were a male “black piller” I would have read the OKC stats about black women being comparatively less desired than other women and drank myself to an early grave I guess lol

But I didn’t do that because that’s dumb asf and so silly to base your life off of marginal differentials expressed on a population level.

Black pillers will read some “study” that says men who had wide forearms attracted 55% of women in the sample and men who had less wide forearms attracted 49% of women in the study, and decide that having less wide forearms means you’ll never attract a woman as easy as the other guy so why bother. It’s such a loser mindset I can’t even take it seriously.

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Of course but so what? I have a big nose, bags under my eyes that would require surgery to fix, my lips are too big for a man (women would kill for them), and dimples which are cute on a kid but not on an adult. I'm sure I've painted a horrible picture and I'm not that BAD but its nothing to write home about. No chick turns her head when I walk into a party. Thats ok. You figure out how to work around it.

Yes you can be so bad you give up I'm sure but thats going to be only a small % of people, and even then, I've seen some horribly ugly people happily married it seems. Men and women.

Black pill is data that says basically "On a 1 to 10 your a 4".

Ok?

So figure out what you can do to get better, and if you can't like height, figure out what you can do to compensate.

Short guys are still getting laid despite what reddit incels think.

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How is $65/day for food nuts? That’s $16.25 per person, or $5.41 per meal. With absolutely zero snacks (which we all know are necessary with little kids). That’s actually not horrible - so probably closer to $3 or $4 per meal per person + snacks

I'm basing that off my own cost, which comes out to total, $10/day or so. Even based on estimated USDA cost, for high cost groceries, it comes out to 1350/month, which is just a shade over $10/day, for a family of 4, and that is for like, everything.

Realistically, the 2 big issues are childcare is painfully expensive, and...... a family of 4 earning 400k can easily make do with a home that isn't $2 million. The $1 million range is more than fine if anything I've seen in Seattle is an indication (and seriously, there's some excellent stuff even in the 750k range. Homes that are in decent condition, decent size, and central location near solid schools). If that hypothetical family decided to live in a home that is half the price of the one they used, their expenses would be roughly half, which would save them roughly 55k/year. It might be a bit tight with daycare/preschool, but those conditions are also temporary, and that cost is a combined 64k, as listed. So..... just those two things would save this hypothetical family 110k in costs.

The food one isn't THAT bad, since I outlined a dead-easy way to save over 50k, and at least with childcare, that cost is only until they are school-aged. Not ideal, but workable.

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, I’m not saying it’s not high cost. But it’s not “eating out at every single meal with wine and cocktails” high, they’re clearly cooking at home

But I agree that childcare is the issue. My friend with twins is paying almost $3K per month for daycare - care for infants is out of control expensive, but she’s the breadwinner (and he’s the type of dad who refuses to even bathe the kids, so yeah)

I think it depends on where they are - $2 million in San Fran/Silicon Valley really isn’t out of control at all. The median home cost in my town is just under $1 million, but you’re factoring in at least a 90 minute commute to NYC (on the train - 2+ hours in the car/traffic). I agree that home costs could be contained, but you have to be aware that there are trade offs to getting less expensive housing

There’s also the fact that a lot of families make an intentional decision to be house poor for 5 or so years in order to have a nicer house as the kids grow up. But that brings us full circle to “if they’re spending $65 a day on food, are they really house poor?”

[–]WestsideMoonWalker1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think it depends on where they are - $2 million in San Fran/Silicon Valley really isn’t out of control at all.

Potentially, but like, cursory look at SF shows some decent inventory in or under $1m and that's in city. There are trade-offs for less expensive housing for sure, but pretty much anything over 750k, even in a large city (sans maybe NYC, but even NYC seems to have some stuff that's under a million that's fine) probably gets you something that's good enough. Maybe not exceptional, but fine. The $2 million house thing is the main reason I blasted that budget they gave as out of touch especially, since like.... $2m is above the median home price even in the community where I went to high school in, which is one of the most expensive areas of LA.

Realistically the stuff with childcare is absolutely nuts though. If we contained those costs, I bet people would be way less reluctant about starting a family.

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I don't actually disagree with that. I'm just saying that a $1m house is probably "good enough" for the vast majority of people unless they are specifically trying to live in one of the handful of most expensive neighborhoods, in the most expensive cities. I'd argue that for instance, a family earning 400k is probably actually living out of their means by living in an area like Medina in the Seattle area, or La Canada, Malibu, or Palos Verdes in the LA area (again, since those are the cities I am actually familiar with), but those areas are also exceptionally expensive even compared to the rest of their otherwise expensive geographical areas, and there's plenty of areas in those cities which are "cheaper" where there would still be good schools and a fine commute. In NYC or SF, I bet it's a harder needle to thread, but it's still doable.

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That is cool. I've heard the USDA is about to launch a big initiative to serve black farmers in an effort to make up for its decades of discrimination. (Which is part of the problem with government programs, but that's another story.) Hopefully some of this money will find its way into urban agriculture -- for instance, hydroponics operations which are capital-intensive in terms of start-up but can be long-term sustainable and profitable. There are of course less formal initiatives, like the Georgia Street cooperative in Detroit (though sadly I just checked their website and they appear to be inactive now). I've donated compost from my sanctuary farm to some similar projects here (Grow Pittsburgh and also an effort to start a raised-bed garden at a women's shelter in the city.)

I don't know how realistic some of these efforts are ... a battered woman trying to reestablish her life probably has bigger fish to fry than growing some carrots, lol. Still, it may plant a seed ... (literally and figuratively). One disincentive is that food is one of the easier things for poor people to obtain, thanks to SNAP, WIC, food banks, etc. Rich people feel good about donating food, vs. a carton of Marlboro Lights or a six-pack, lol. Also, the government subsidizes the production of highly-processed foods (another problem, but I digress) which makes them cheap and readily available (although not the best things to eat in terms of nutrition, obviously). The ready availability of enough food to fill one's belly (albeit not the kind that lends itself to proper nourishment) probably makes growing food a lower priority for most poor people who have to carefully allocate their time and resources in order to survive. That's a pity because there is so much to be gained -- healthy exercise, the satisfaction of the harvest, food security.

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Full fucking stop. No, wait, incoming rant alert.

Even if you're being taxed at 50% in California you can live well off 200k a year. I mean, unless you're trying to fight a cash bidwar over a house at the top of a hill in San Francis- wwaaaaaaaaaah I want my hilltop house in San Francisco oh boo hoo now I feel like a Jew being persecuted by Nazis waaaaaaaah waaaaa

Whoops, I digress!

I remember when my wife and I first met, we were combined making like under 40K. I remember saying if only we had like 10-20K more we'd be able to thrive. Well the year we got married I got that banking sector tech job that put us over 60K and my wife started home staging and put us over 100K then HUD got us a 2B2BA starter home. Everything took off because the mortgage and insurance etc was CHEAPER than our former rent and then we went well over 400k by the time Obama got elected. Bad tax planning had us shelling out ~55% of what we earned but we were still well past "oh man we're living good". By then we'd already lived three years in our starter home and had fixed it up to sell. We moved to the rural foothill edge of Sacramento/El Dorado County (now un/officially a suburb) and got a nice plot of land out of the deal.

Over a decade later you can still get a lower-end house out there on 400K a year and 50% taxes if you saved for a while and bid with cold cash and a competitive offer letter that's targeted at the owners. (It's a good idea to obtain some intel for that. We maintain stake in our former insurance business and we are starting to hear stories as of 2020 about buyers hiring PIs to learn about the seller to know what to say to them. You'll see this trend in the news in about a year I think.)

Now when it comes to NYC I have just a little more patience with the 400K crowd and their fear of taxes. Properties in NYC are like San Francisco and can be insanely expensive. But for them I still suggest... maybe move out of NYC? Then again commuting in is absolute hell. Maybe apply your skills to seek a home business or something you can do remotely and make commuting an option? When my wife and I earned shit for income that's what we did. I transitioned out of working for the man to co-owning a business with my wife. Because when you're earning 400K a year and keeping only 200K you have a shitload of money to kickstart shit like buying and selling en masse on ebay or Amazon and then transitioning to other higher-value businesses that generate residual income...

See what I'm getting at? And this is what we did when we had shit income. We're not geniuses, man. We just had a plan that's all. My point is these fuckers making 400K a year should by the very magnitude of their incomes already have proven to be smart enough to do better than 400K if 400K isn't enough for them.

They should be making plans instead of planning to whine and cry and cut their taxes. Taxes isn't what's killing them. Failing to grow their income and spending too much money on luxury goods is what's doing them in. And I don't mean iPhones or Starbucks, I do insurance I see these fuckers registering new Lexuses and now new Teslas every year. Those Teslas run over 80K apiece. Then some are using bitcoin and bitcoin has its own odious tax rates unless they're failing to report bitcoin sales in which case Uncle Sam will want a word with them...

ah, I'm digressing endlessly. I see so much from these 400K+ crowd that it's almost impossible to stop venting about their stupidity and excess and even less possible to justify their whining about taxes. This post is aalready surpassing Anna Karenina and I haven't even gotten started about these idiots.

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Also People always ask Are you ok with a partner having friends of the opposite sex? Well in a vacuum ok but it depends… did they have a previous sexual relationship? Because that changes everything and people can act like nah but it’s true lol.

For example I have 2 female friends, one I’ve known for 13 years another for 7. Those are my homegirls and the only women ive ever been friends with. But we have NEVER had a sexual relationship. It’s not like one is my ex Gf who I dated for 8 years and another is someone i hooked up with and was a FWB. If that was the case my girlfriend wouldn’t be cool with that, and I can’t blame her because I have the same thoughts. You can’t be buddy buddy with any ex boyfriend or guy you hooked up with. Those people have to be cut out of your life.

I made a comment last month about Ex’s where I said I’m not friends with any of them. That doesn’t mean I hate them, it’s just we ain’t friends, we don’t communicate, there’s no reason to. The only reason I would ever talk to an ex is if we had a child in common and we had to do the co parent thing. But that’s also one of the reasons I could never seriously date(long term)a single mom because her Ex is always gonna have to be around.

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I usually plan meals out on Friday evening or Saturday and put in a grocery order to pick up on Sunday. I try to get everything for the week in that one grocery order.

I usually try to schedule my grocery pickup for early evening (4-5pm) so I can spend the evening unpacking groceries and doing any prep for the week that can be done in advance. I find that after doing all of that I'm not really in the mood to cook, so dinner on Sunday is usually something low effort -- leftovers from the previous week, frozen pizza, etc.

We also get a box from Imperfect Foods every other week and those come on Wednesdays. So I will usually plan the following week's meals around what came in the Imperfect box that week.

I started doing this because I found myself extremely annoyed/mentally exhausted by the daily "what's for dinner" conversation after work. If I plan it all out ahead of time and do some of the prep ahead of time then I can just get home and get to work on dinner. I enjoy cooking a lot more since I started doing things this way.

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A lot of these loner guys just need a starter GF to get the ball rolling lol. She don’t got to be no dime. It’s like the workforce, you’re first job was probably something crappy like McDonald’s or sweeping floors but it taught you the basics of having a job. Showing up on time, finishing tasks, working in a group without mommy and daddy.

Just having a chick lick your balls everyday, cook for you, and generally hold you down does wonders for a mans confidence even if she isn’t a stunner. Then you move on to the better looking girls. It’s like a video game where you unlock the next level.

It’s interesting because I remember there was this young chick on dating advice who said she felt like a practice GF her whole life. She said her BFs were always like inexperienced or shy. At first they would be humble and kiss her ass but after getting pussy they would start to get arrogant and eventually upgrade

[–]Bandit1744 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So in theory I do agree that having practice flings to gain experience, improve confidence and catch up to where everyone else is at would be beneficial for inexperienced guys. Lots of inexperienced guys want an equally inexperienced partner and care a lot about n-count but your suggestion of gaining practice is probably more realistic of an option for them.

The issue is the type of guys who are inexperienced/lonely are unlikely to feel comfortable or be convincing at using less desirable women for practice and the types of guys who are comfortable and proficent at it are unlikely to be inexperienced in the first place.

I honestly don't consider myself a nice or compassionate person overall, but even I don't think I would feel comfortable just using a less attractive girl as a practice gf. Maybe if I knew she was a cunt it would be easier but even then I'm probably not skilled enough of an actor to be convincing at faking interest. I think my emotions are pretty easily read in person.

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OK follow on as im hoping to gain some insight:

Has anyone ever gotten through to someone who has such a different opinion on what love should be based on past traumas? im speaking about about a previous gf/bf that you had major sparks for and spent a long time with but ended up causing someone trauma and now they cant equate love with anything but their previous relationship?

For further clarification:

she ended things with me because after 1.5 years (3 dating, 8 exclusive but not telling anyone due to work and the rest open and official) she felt that she never felt butterflies with me like she did with her ex BF of 6 years who seriously hurt her

He cheated for 2 years, no intimacy, alcoholic, she thought he was the one (marriage etc eventually she was afraid to bump into him and his new gf etc, had a breakdown when she did etc) and therefore she doesnt love me or see a future

a big red flag that i see now is: She had 0 friends in her new city and about 6 months in asked me my thoughts on using tinder to find friends - she found one and made it clear it was just friends but still my insecurities are showing through now (throughout the relationship she told me if she was meeting him or whatnot and i did not deny her any of this etc)

She said that she cant waste anymore time trying with someone she isnt sure about or take the risk with me because she would be wasting time(i.e. would prefer to regret forever by ending now than by trying and regretting it later)

While we are currently not in contact (my choice, i dont want to hurt myself being her friend to see her move on) i do miss this person a lot and wish to communicate to her that a lack sparks/butterflies is because we had moved into a more comfortable routine that couldnt be broken due to the pandemic and that there was so much more to experience.

Now im sitting here in a different country learning that things are opening up and all the things we wanted to do together can never be done.

If anyone has any thoughts please let me know. happy to talk in DMs too.....

[–]GridReXX3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Isaleem1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hey thanks

Honestly its very hard hearing that after 1.5 years together, and i honestly dont know what she wants anymore...sorry i just havent spoken to anyone about this. Im not sure i can make a post on here just yet but will try.

She pushed for exclusivity, she pushed to make it official and hide it from colleagues and then she pushed to make it open when asked. we talked about the future and moving in together and she brought things up over xmas that she wasnt sure about us because it was all so different to her last relationship, she even said its because things are so calm she just expects me to cheat on her or break up when the pandemic opens up and we have our hobbies again.

I just feel used and even possibly feel like i was long term rebound (things ended badly in her last relationship in september 2019) and now my insecurities from previous relationships (i was cheated on) and knowing that she asked to use tinder to find friends (i did trust her here) and then finding out the next day she went out with the guy she met from there really hurt, and naturally i enquired with our mutual friends and this got back to her. hell i had already talked about proposing to her

She reached out to our friends to say she really does care and misses me but i cant help but think that actions speak louder than words and she would have called by now (1 month and counting)

I cant do this again, i made such an effort to not be emotionally distant, to open up and to take care of her and the moment i had 1 bad day (failed an interview) she bailed because when i mentioned moving to a different country she couldnt give me an instant yes and so she compared things to her ex once again

I honestly thought she was over him (there was 1 moment where i had to step in and take her away from the city they both lived in as she was having a break down) and she even wrote me a letter on my birthday last month saying she appreciates all that ive done and now she feels fine.

I left the country to be away from things for a while but i cant shake the feeling that im the only one without the entire picture and just wish to have another conversation with my partner not this new woman who has removed me from her life.

ahh shit, sorry i need to vent, i need to cry but i cant, i need to hear her stupid accent and hold her and say its ok that im not your ex and that its ok to be scared but its not ok to give up or think the grass is greener just because we were comfortable. GAH!

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Found an interesting comment:

Another one of those. I been thinking, rather mulling over, what would I do with my disposable income if I didn't have kids.

So last night was one of the long ones so I pulled my mobile excel and did some math. After all is said and done between my wife and myself we have around 4 to 6k£ disposable income per month after mortgage, utilities, bills, phones, cars, commuting expenses etc. Aka pure disposable.

I knew them kids are rather expensive but never really put keyboard to excel to actually get the real numbers.

So I started wondering what would we do with that amount of money. We spent 14 days in the Maldives on our honeymoon and that costs barely 10k... We could be doing that with saving just 2 months...

Travelling? Michelin star restaurants, gadgets everything we could literally afford almost anything... Well no private jets and all that, but within reason we could live quite well.

Would that be such a bad life? And for those of you saying but you will grow old and lonely... Well we all are lonely even with my kids I wouldn't want to burden them and live with them. So ultimately I would be on my own with my wife... And on death again we day alone we don't take anybody with us in death...

I know it's a silly mental exercise... But what would you do if you didn't have the financial burden imposed by your kids?

I think if my mother hadn't had me, she could have retired early and travel everywhere she wanted. She most likely wouldn't have done it though, she'd have spent this money on her relatives, so...with me she at least has someone who actually plans to pay her back.

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But nothing can compete with the law that Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas signed last month. Not only does it ban abortion after a fetal heartbeat is detected — which can occur as early as six weeks, before many women realize they are pregnant — but it effectively deputizes the entire world’s population to enforce the ban, authorizing “any person” to sue anyone who performs or facilitates an abortion outside that time frame.

The defendants could include not only the doctor doing the procedure but also a doctor who made the referral, the clinic’s landlord and the volunteer escort who shields patients entering the building. All would be subject to a $10,000 fine plus the plaintiff’s court costs for each successful lawsuit. At the same time, the law strips the state itself of enforcement power. The purpose of that novel provision is to prevent abortion providers from going to court, because there is no entity they can sue.

Really interesting gambit in Texas. It seems to me that if this weirdo "deputizing" scheme fails in court, then nobody in Texas will have standing to stop abortions. They probably wrote in some safety clause that re-empowers the State if their deputizing scheme fails, though. Also hard to see how this deputizing scheme doesn't have a major Establishment problem.

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Its trite to say, but its so much more than a courier game. I'm hopped up on cold meds so I'm having difficulty expressing myself, but thrill of the gameplay is terraforming a post apocalyptical hellscape into something slightly less awful. When you start the game you have nothing but your body, your boots, a psychic baby companion, and some packages to deliver. The world outside is awful, beautiful, lonely, breathtaking, and terrifying.

So you're first task is delivering a package across a mountain and through a valley. Seems easy enough; but how do you scale the mountain? how do you descend safely and keep the packages intact? how do you avoid the zombie ghost valley? What do you do when you accidently walking into zombie ghost valley? How do you avoid the randomly generated deathrain? etc. Along the way you get tools like ladders, ropes, motorcycles, trucks, zip lines, etc. You can builds roads, bridges, and safe houses, etc. But each new perk has a draw back or a cost to use it (i.e. you can cut across the landscape with a motorcycle, but you can't take it across the river; you can use a truck to carry XXL packages to your location, but the truck will degrade in deathrain and you still have to traverse zombie valley with that shit on your back to get to the front door).

There's some standard combat game play, so FPS game play, but it all pales in comparison to just.. the sense of accomplishment you feel when you build an entire road system through zombie ghost valleys, terrorist camps, raging rivers, deathrain storms, etc. knowing that other players will use your road system, knowing that all future delivers will be 1000% easier because of your road system. The joy you feel when you're tasked with delivering a package through a valley littered with terrorist camps and zombie ghosts but seeing that someone else built a zipline system for you to use.

Throw in some Kojima humor/story telling/mood setting and its a really compelling game. It's hard to describe tho, you just have to abandon traditional ideas of game play.

I think its totally work checking out. I have yet to come across a person that has regretting playing the game.

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If his fat doesn’t detract from his overall masculine frame (wider shoulders, strong back, V torso but perhaps a beer gut, overall square look as opposed to round look) he’s still going to be attractive in a masculine way to a lot of women.

Two things:

1) This only works for a small minority of guys. I was one of them. When I was bigger people assumed I was stronger than I actually was. I got offered bouncer jobs by club managers without even applying. I got mistaken for professional football players. Regardless being fat did negatively impact my ability to get and keep women.

2) Being fat negatively impacts guys' health more. By the time I was in my early 40s I had diabetes. By the time I was in my early 50s I had heart issues too. Being sick is a major turn-off for most women. My ex-wife asked for a divorce the same day I got my heart diagnosis.

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Actually designers finally have in recent years started to listen to their female customers and putting pockets in clothes. Everything I’ve bought from pants to dresses to yoga pants in the last 2 years have had pockets.

The main reason major designers made the change is the Amazon’s of the world disrupting their markets by providing women access to B C and D list designers that were selling women what they wanted and sales were way down. Suddenly the crusty old white male shareholders in the board room stopped complaining about that hundredth of a cent extra per unit to sew in pockets cutting into their profits.

This is when I adore the power of capitalism. Not just because I get pockets but because I love it when the little guy entrepreneur opens up a can of whoop ass on the corporate bureaucrats who feel entitled to their consumers money.

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I’d be wondering why I waited 6 extra years to lose it

Seriously, though, I don’t think the answer is one or the other - sex can be nothing but selfish pleasure. Sex can also be an amazingly emotional and intimate experience that deepens your relationship and takes it to a different level. Both phenomenons can even happen with the same partner

By the same token, there is no guarantee that relationship sex will be good. And there’s no guarantee that STR sex will be bad (to quote a therapist I once had, there’s nothing like emotional intimacy to bring out your crazy. And nothing like anonymity to bring out your kinks)

I would do the same thing I did the first time around - do what feels right in the moment. Prioritizing myself, my safety, and my pleasure (but bc this is a Pill sub, this needs to be said - not at my partner’s expense)

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Ergo attraction is necessary for a satisfying relationship.

Attraction comes in many forms, though. I'm specifically referencing physical attraction, and why most people seem to idealize physical attraction over everything else. It's basically a prerequisite for most people to want to be in a relationship with someone, even if it is just our brains telling us to want to reproduce with them for that reason alone. What I'm asking is where people make the connection between what I just said and being in a happy and satisfying relationship, and why people seem to connect "physically attractive" with "good relationship partner." A lot of the women that I've found myself attracted to have been more so because I spoke to them. It's also happened that I've become less attracted to attractive women after speaking to them because they were "ugly on the inside."

[–]death_by_1000_cats3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm specifically referencing physical attraction, and why most people seem to idealize physical attraction over everything else.

I'm specifically talking about physical attraction too, I thought that was obvious. Physical attraction is a necessary component of enjoyable sex for the vast majority of people.

It's basically a prerequisite for most people to want to be in a relationship with someone, even if it is just our brains telling us to want to reproduce with them for that reason alone.

I'm not sure why you're handwaving this away like it isn't a huge deal. At the end of the day sex and relationships are about reproduction. Physical attraction provides us with important genetic information about a person and our compatibility with them.

I'm not saying you should have a relationship/marry/have kids with someone based only on physical attraction and nothing else, but it's a huge piece of the puzzle.

What I'm asking is where people make the connection between what I just said and being in a happy and satisfying relationship and why people seem to connect "physically attractive" with "good relationship partner."

I already explained it. Physical attraction is necessary for an enjoyable sex life, and an enjoyable sex life is necessary for satisfying relationship for most people. So by the transitive property, physical/sexual attraction is necessary for a satisfying relationship.

Necessary isn't the same thing as sufficient though, which seems to be what's confusing you?

I'd say most happy/satisfying LTRs boil down to three essential components: sexual/physical attraction and compatibility (do you enjoy fucking and sharing physical intimacy with them), emotional/intellectual compatibility (do you enjoy talking to them), and lifestyle compatibility (do you enjoy doing the day-to-day mundane stuff with them and do you have shared values, tastes, goals, habits, etc.) There are various other X factors but I'd say those three sum up the majority of what makes a satisfying relationship for most people, and most people are going to be unsatisfied if one of those major components is missing, no matter how good the other two might be.

A lot of the women that I've found myself attracted to have been more so because I spoke to them. It's also happened that I've become less attracted to attractive women after speaking to them because they were "ugly on the inside."

Yes most people have experienced this. Looks aren't the only component of sexual attraction, especially for women. And physical attraction alone isn't always enough to overcome other non physical turnoffs.

[–]nemporisso0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Probably spirituality and religiosity. Most of us are attracted to/infatuated with people in a way that defies logic and meaning to some degree.

Eh, no, I think this explanation falls into the grey area of attraction and relationships. Most people's attraction stems from their brain programming and they have difficulty identifying what it is that they're attracted to about someone's appearance. I personally am attracted to features like plump lips and pronounced cheek bones, so anyone who looks similar to Michelle Trachtenberg is going to get my attention.

The "meant to be" stuff sounds like corny Lifetime television or rom-com trope garbage and definitely isn't found in the majority of actual people's lives. At least, I'm pretty sure it's not. It's all the former and people just want the "meant to be/made for each other" stuff to be true because that's the only way it makes sense to them.

I personally have a difficult time conceptualizing how other people view attraction because most of it seems very shallow and superficial, and here I am finding myself attracted to a range of women for different reasons.

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I simply replied to what a guy defined as “slutty.” Their definition not mine per se.

Which is exactly why I said I don’t care how men here define sluts.

I had a feeling their/your version of slut was “10 before 30” and not “every person within a 200 mile radius.”

And yes, which is why my focus is on how she comports and presents and not her sexual intimacy which is none of my concern of my adult child.

I still don’t think we truly align because deep down you care about her vagina and I don’t. I care about her vaginal health of course. But no I don’t lay awake at night thinking about if my daughter is a “slut.” That’s a male thing. You guys lay awake at night thinking about your gf’s “ex boyfriends’ dicks” whereas I literally have never spent a second thinking about who my boo dated before me. Reminds me of TI accompanying his 18 yo daughter to her OBGYN visit and instead of asking the doctor if her health is good and her cycle is normal, he asks to check if her hymen is broken. It’s shit like that I find “weird” and “disgusting” about some fathers/men.

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Yeah I’m old but I have a lot of friends coworkers and neighbors with kids in their 20s. Seems like most of them have been in or are in relationships. I don’t know why you guys act like this is such a rare thing anymore.

Yeah exactly, those are easier to get for average men.

And please stop referring to the DM as one where people ONLY have CS or ONLY have relationships. Most people do some combination of both. All causal sex means is that you weren’t in a committed relationship at the time. Lots of times CS turns into a relationship.

I'm not disagreeing, the quote was from another women on here.

So you don't believe this is true?

If average men want sex they need to work on getting girlfriends as women don’t want to have casual sex with them.

You believe all men get casual sex at equal rates?

[–]poppy_blu2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Sad_Top17431 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Where did that come from?

you said dis

The way you guys talk about “casual sex” as if it’s some secretive billionaires club on jeff Epstein’s island that people are killing to get into is beyond me.

I notice many of your arguments are false dilemma's or straw-men.

You believe all men get casual sex at equal rates?

This is the opposite of your take. I don't believe either are true but rather somewhere in the middle (duh) but this needed to be said due to that false dilemma you created.

It’s easier to have regular sex in a relationship, that’s not debatable. My point was that most people aren’t exclusively doing one or the other. Most people don’t even give it that much thought, they just date and go with it.

Of course, but a relationship is not casual anymore. Most people don't give thoughts into things, sure but that doesn't mean we shouldn't.

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anytime i’ve had a discussion or argument about abortion, my argument centers more around disadvantaged women (which, can include rape victims; but isn’t specific towards them) and situations in which the pregnancy puts mother and/or the fetus’ life at serious risk.

why does every pro-lifer default to “abortion is murder?” and “abortion is selfish?”

ironically enough, this tends come from the very people who hate paying for social programs that help the children who are a result of unwanted pregnancies and unfit parents. the people who have the mentality of “i’ve got mine, fuck you.” the people who usually don’t like government being involved in anything, except when it comes to forcing people to live in accordance to what they deem to be “right;” but i digress...

anyway, your comment made me think of a post i saw yesterday that i thought gave a great perspective on this that i’d never even considered; so i’m just gonna leave this here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/jp6s6a/we_must_do_a_better_job_speaking_about_abortion/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

i hadn’t even considered that these laws could force women who are carrying dead fetuses and babies to have to carry them to term and risk sepsis.

this is why people talk about the exceptions, because the exceptions are actually the people who need it the most. you get rid of it for everybody, and they’re left totally screwed.

[–]geyges🐇 -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

ironically enough, this tends come from the very people who hate paying for social programs that help the children who are a result of unwanted pregnancies and unfit parents.

Nothing ironic about that. If you dislike one form of irresponsibility, you dislike all forms. And btw your disingenuity here is showing in the fact that you're not arguing for the opposite, are you? Your argument is not "kill it before it becomes a financial burden". You argument is "kill it if mother wants it killed for any reason whatever".

i hadn’t even considered that these laws could force women who are carrying dead fetuses

No they couldn't, because they don't. You're basing this entirely on some anecdotal story about a Catholic hospital.

this is why people talk about the exceptions, because the exceptions are actually the people who need it the most.

They're not the people that use it the most. What proportion of cases would fit medical or rape/incest exception? Likely less than 10%.

I think there's a lot of honest, good arguments that support abortion, but I never hear them from choicers. Mental gymnastics really turn me off, they get into these just completely retarded made-up notions of parasitism, personhood, clumps of cells and so on. Just fucking admit you're killing a human being, and then give me a good reason for why you're doing it. We kill people all the time, it shouldn't be this difficult.

[–]rft24aspiring tradwife [score hidden] 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Nothing ironic about that. If you dislike one form of irresponsibility, you dislike all forms. And btw your disingenuity here is showing in the fact that you're not arguing for the opposite, are you? Your argument is not "kill it before it becomes a financial burden". You argument is "kill it if mother wants it killed for any reason whatever".

it’s ironic because they seemingly care about these fetuses lives soooooo much... until they’re born. once they’re born, they dgaf about them and complain about having to pay taxes for them. if you don’t like having to pay taxes for programs that support them, why would you support more of them being born?

it’s not consistent. pro-lifers don’t gaf about responsibility, that’s not why they’re pro-life; they care that “ abortion is murder” and is “a sin” and “the baby has a soul” or whatever. they put emphasis on how much they supposedly care about these babies.

it’s clear that many just want women to have to face “punishments” for having the audacity to have and enjoy sex.

No they couldn't, because they don't. You're basing this entirely on some anecdotal story about a Catholic hospital.

did you even read the post? it wasn’t about a catholic hospital lmfaooooo.

how do you know they couldn’t?

They're not the people that use it the most. What proportion of cases would fit medical or rape/incest exception? Likely less than 10%.

so what? i didn’t only include rape as the exception, there are other reasons a person could have to abort that are just as valid.

I think there's a lot of honest, good arguments that support abortion, but I never hear them from choicers. Mental gymnastics really turn me off, they get into these just completely retarded made-up notions of parasitism, personhood, clumps of cells and so on. Just fucking admit you're killing a human being, and then give me a good reason for why you're doing it. We kill people all the time, it shouldn't be this difficult. actually, my argument is “abort before the pregnancy kills you and/or the fetus/baby.”

anybody that supports abortion to any degree is basically still supporting abortion, even if they’re not explicitly pro-choice.

and no, people don’t have to “admit” anything or agree with you. i’m lost as to why people on ppd are calling others disingenuous for having the audacity to disagree with them lmfaooooo

[–]geyges🐇 [score hidden] 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

it’s clear that many just want women to have to face “punishments” for having the audacity to have and enjoy sex.

This is kind of the gist of the entire argument here.

Enjoying sex doesn't mean getting pregnant, its quite obvious that's related to a notion of responsibility, but I won't go into it.

There's an issue about whether or not we care about human life, and what human life means to us. Concerns about this are usually dismissed anyway and instead presented as man's need to control female body, which is bizarre since... shouldn't women care about human life too? And if human life does mean something, shouldn't we also take great care not to destroy it for our own personal pleasure or convenience?

The other part here is a liberal attitude toward sex, so let me present an alternative, conservative, and also traditional viewpoint:

Sex is an inherently risky activity, that always carries the risk of pregnancy and/or STD.
Sex usually exists in the context of relationship of some sort. If that relationship is more casual or short term, the risk rises. Single motherhood, potential for physical injuries, abusive or emotionally damaging behavior and so on.

It's odd to say that sex appears to be the only inherently risky activity on planet earth that we can't possibly hold women accountable or punish them for if they're acting irresponsibly.

[–]rft24aspiring tradwife [score hidden] 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

nobody’s saying you can’t hold them accountable; just that their punishment shouldn’t have to be an unwanted child who’s probably gonna have a shitty life full of people who never wanted him in the first place. that’s punishing the innocent child more than it is the woman, it’s just not fair to the child. pro-choicers actually consider whether or not the child will have a half-decent quality of life.

i know many people on a variety of birth controls that still ended up getting pregnant. what then? because they were being responsible and it still happened. now they must face the consequence of having the audacity to enjoy sex? i just find this notion ridiculous.

women do care about human life, they just care more about their own lives. makes sense, no? do men not care about their own lives more than they do others’?

[–]geyges1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

nobody’s saying you can’t hold them accountable

Curious how you think accountability would look like here.

i know many people on a variety of birth controls that still ended up getting pregnant. what then?

Did you miss the part about inherent risk? You have to accept responsibility for sex each time, the pill doesn't give you free pass or absolves you from responsibility.

Even so, most couples have absolutely no issue not getting pregnant until they're ready.

they just care more about their own lives. makes sense, no?

depends, no? Many mothers and fathers would willingly sacrifice their lives for their offspring. But that's not that interesting compared to legal and societal standards of when we value human life and when we don't. Although I don't want to get bogged down in that.

[–]rft241 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Curious how you think accountability would look like here.

i don’t know what it would look like because i don’t believe they need to be held accountable.

Did you miss the part about inherent risk? You have to accept responsibility for sex each time, the pill doesn't give you free pass or absolves you from responsibility.

i didn’t.

i think abortion could still be considered taking responsibility, since the women who abort are actively doing something about the situation. they’ve concluded they cannot offer a child a decent life and are unwilling to go through the process of pregnancy and childbirth, so they’re exercising their options and deciding to legally abort. i think they’d be irresponsible for bringing a child into an unsatisfactory situation, where the parents are unfit to raise a child and/or the child is unwanted.

just differing opinions ig.

Even so, most couples have absolutely no issue not getting pregnant until they're ready.

how would you know? it’s not like women are publicly advertising their abortions. your own mother could’ve had an abortion someday, and you’d never know unless she told you.

depends, no? Many mothers and fathers would willingly sacrifice their lives for their offspring. But that's not that interesting compared to legal and societal standards of when we value human life and when we don't. Although I don't want to get bogged down in that.

yeah, sacrifice their lives for existing offspring. i don’t think most people are going to feel as strongly about a > 3mo old fetus as they do a whole baby or child that they’ve grown an emotional attachment to for like several months.

[–]geyges1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rft241 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's very generous of you to ascribe that level of consideration. What if I told you many simply concluded that its inconvenient at this particular point in their life. I doubt it changes anything for you.

i may not agree with it, but it’s not my womb. what they’re doing is legal, so they have every right to do that if that’s what they feel they need to do. what another woman does with her womb is none of my business.

maybe, what do you think? You think every woman has an abortion at some point?

no, obviously not every woman. i’m just saying there’s no way for you to know who has and who hasn’t. women aren’t just going to offer up this information to you.

women have told me of their abortions or of others who have had abortions (or who almost aborted), and i would’ve never thought these individuals would’ve even considered it; all ranging from very young girls to uber-religious women to young women and girls who were coerced into abortions.

i wouldn’t have known and wouldn’t have thought these women ever had abortions if someone didn’t tell me.

Right now we're giving women arbitrary power of decide what is and isn't a human being as long as its been inside them for under 3 months.

oh well, it is what it is.

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[–]cloudydays84No Pill Man 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Abortion is murder" is mostly coming from the religious pro-life side, not the general movement itself.

And "what about rape" is an argument used specifically for that sect of the pro-life movement(which is a pretty significant part of it). And there are other arguments that pro-choice people use, you know like bodily autonomy.

It's also a trivial point to argue against because the women don't seem to care if its murder or would be murder anyway

Right... but pro-lifers do, that's kind of the problem. It's not a trivial point if their argument against abortion is based on the fact that it's murder but then say "well in this specific instance, murder would be okay, even though the fetus is still innocent, because we deem it to be so" which sounds like hypocrisy.

If pro-lifers want to stop hearing that argument, they can start saying "abortion is murder and should be illegal, including for rape". Which is a hotter take but one that is actually consistent with their rationale.

because their own lives and wellbeing should be more important than their unborn child's, which is also the highlight of the argument. It's all about themselves.

If you want women to be honest that they want abortion to be legal for convenience's sake (which i know plenty who do, once again bodily autonomy), a good deal of pro-lifers should start being honest about the fact that they don't give a shit about the mother or the fetus, as well.

[–]TheBookOfSeilSentient penis with arms and legs -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

And there are other arguments that pro-choice people use, you know like bodily autonomy.

Bodily autonomy doesn't give women a right to an abortion. It just means that the government can't prevent them from getting one. In the event that nobody provided abortions to women, nobody would have to.

Right... but pro-lifers do, that's kind of the problem. It's not a trivial point if their argument against abortion is based on the fact that it's murder but then say "well in this specific instance, murder would be okay, even though the fetus is still innocent, because we deem it to be so" which sounds like hypocrisy.

That's mostly because pro-choicers accuse them of being insensitive monsters for "forcing women to carry a rape to term," so they really can't win, which is the point of the shaming strategy. If they don't allow an exception, they're terrible people, and if they do, then they're hypocrites and not consistent.

If you want women to be honest that they want abortion to be legal for convenience's sake (which i know plenty who do, once again bodily autonomy), a good deal of pro-lifers should start being honest about the fact that they don't give a shit about the mother or the fetus, as well.

That's where you would be wrong. In this case the fetus is more important because they're the innocent party. The mother would be at fault so there's not much room for sympathy there. Pro-lifers are only trying to protect them from being killed by their mother. That's "caring about them." As far as being taken care of after birth, that's the parent's job, not pro-lifers, although there are a lot of pro-lifers who volunteer to be foster parents.

[–]cloudydays84No Pill Man 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Bodily autonomy doesn't give women a right to an abortion. It just means that the government can't prevent them from getting one. In the event that nobody provided abortions to women, nobody would have to.

This very much reads like a pro-choice argument... like a lot.

If they don't allow an exception, they're terrible people, and if they do, then they're hypocrites and not consistent.

Then that's a choice they need to make. What's worse for them, being perceived as terrible for their choices/beliefs (i.e like how they treat those who are pro-choice as murderers) or being perceived as hypocrites (which if they turn their backs on their beliefs they by definition are)?

Women that have gotten abortions in the past have already run the gauntlet of social shaming (and in some places are still running it) and still managed to advocate for themselves. If pro-lifers can't do the same then it probably means they don't care about their position enough or they're in it for the wrong reasons.

Pro-lifers are only trying to protect them from being killed by their mother. That's "caring about them."

Fair enough but then they can't make an exception for rape without being considered hypocrites. If they do then their argument is atleast semi-bullshit and everyone can see it. Like I said if they want to avoid being hypocrites then their mantra should be:

"Abortion is murder, and therefore should be illegal, including when it's rape"

If they can't handle the social shame (or cognitive dissonance) that comes with saying that then I guess they didn't really think their position through which is why they're in a lose-lose situation.

[–]death_by_1000_cats2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have always said this. If you truly, honestly believe in your heart of hearts that abortion is murder then you wouldn't make an exception for rape. It makes no sense to say that abortion is murder and then concede that it's okay to murder a baby if its father was a rapist.

The only exception that kind of makes sense from the religious pro life side is if the mother's life is in danger from a tubal pregnancy or something. A situation where the fetus isn't viable and letting it grow could potentially kill the mother too.

If you make an exception for rape because "the mother didn't choose to be in that situation" then it's clearly not about saving an innocent baby's life, it's about holding the woman accountable for irresponsible sex. Which is fine, but then don't tell me it's about saving babies.

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[–]NarniaFox 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Because it's not non-existent and it's the one of the worst things that can happen to a woman.

You can call it however you want, thankfully most people get that the right to exercise their body autonomy isn't just convenience. Of if it is - so are most of our rights and medical services. The statistics shows that abortion ban doesn't really increase the rates of giving birth, it increases women's mortality and rates of infanticide.

I'm strongly pro-choice and oppose changes that pro-life movement want to make in Russia like taking abortions out of universal medical care. Not because I want to have some free abortions, but because I know that it would affect the most vulnerable population that just wouldn't be able to find money to get an abortion. Also because I think that being have to keep an unwanted pregnancy is torturing and inhumane.

[–]TheBookOfSeilSentient penis with arms and legs -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Because it's not non-existent

What's non-existent? The literal thing in the womb? Cool. Guess abortions aren't even needed then.

and it's the one of the worst things that can happen to a woman.

That doesn't address the fact that it is a minority occurrence, and a pretty rare reason/cause for pregnancy.

You can call it however you want, thankfully most people get that the right to exercise their body autonomy isn't just convenience.

It is, in this specific context, though.

Of if it is - so are most of our rights and medical services

Yes but nearly all of those don't result in a human death that wasn't the patient.

The statistics shows that abortion ban doesn't really increase the rates of giving birth, it increases women's mortality and rates of infanticide.

Sounds like a problem with women, though.

I'm strongly pro-choice and oppose changes that pro-life movement want to make in Russia like taking abortions out of universal medical care.

That's cool but most of my issue in this comment involves women scapegoating rape victims for their convenience abortions, which are the majority of abortions, not rape or medical emergencies, and not either of those combined.

Not because I want to have some free abortions, but because I know that it would affect the most vulnerable population that just wouldn't be able to find money to get an abortion.

That's a separate issue.

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Salt update:

Im over the moon. After having that bad experience last time with the girl who stood me up, this was so so worth it. The girl was amazingly hot. Hottest girl ive been with. Her body was fantastic. Breasts on the smaller size but everything else was perfect. She mustve been about 5 feet and 110 pounds. Slim thicc as fuck. She was so soft and smooth too. Middle eastern.

We were supposed to meet at 7pm, but she didnt show till like 815. The whole time im thinking she is gunna stand me up and starting to get upset. She told me she was getting food, and she was, she showed me snaps to prove it, but still, 7pm means 7pm.

Anyways, she walks in the door, and let her put her stuff down then go straight for it like I usually do. I tell her to take off her clothes and she lays on the bed in just her panties and rolls over so I can see her ass. It was stunning. I go in and give it a nice kiss on the cheek 🤣. (Does that make me a simp for literally kissing a girl's ass?)

Anyways, not to get too into the nitty gritty, but amazing time. Makes all the frustration worth it.

Oh yeah, she insisted on leaving me her leftovers from the resturant too 🤣. So I got a free meal out of it too

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The problem is the industry will just pass the cost onto the consumer, and leisure activities will be even more out of reach of the average person.

Plenty of people in the hospitality and dining industry don't want things to change, because they know they're making far more than they would otherwise. Of course the majority struggle to get by, but, as much as it sucks to say, most of the positions in that industry are not meant to be careers. Mostly seasonal and entry level work for kids and early 20s students.

If you're 35+ and still grinding by on tips as a waitress or bartender (and not one of the say 5% who actually are making a decent living on it) then I don't really have much sympathy for you. The move is to save enough when young to invest in your education, or use what you learn to start your own business.

[–]SmurfESmurferson8 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NeuroplasticSurgery2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, I've worked my share of shitty restaurant jobs. It definitely sucked to see $2.13/hr on my paycheck every month. But, then again, there were busy nights that made it worth it, which is why I stuck around. But I never had any illusions I could sustain that lifestyle past college.

Restaurants could make it work, but not without trade-offs. And that trade-off would be fewer servers and a higher barrier to entry into the industry, as veterans would force out inexperienced kids looking to get a toe into the workforce.

And, just from my experience, plenty of servers and bartenders are happy the way it is now. They don't mind the roller-coaster wage trends, or the freedom to pick up and leave a job at a dry spot and immediately get a better gig at the place down the street. A lot of this would be gone if restaurants started paying higher wages, not to mention a decreasing customer pool due to higher prices.

Of course every location will see different effects. Tourist trap type places will always be busy, but a small town restaurant may not be able to make it work in the face of such legislation passing. And I'm not saying that some positive reforms definitely should take place.

[–]SmurfESmurferson2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NeuroplasticSurgery2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, the average restaurant's profit margin is 3-5%. Some obviously fare far better than others, depending on location. But most barely skate by.

If you have say 15-20 employees, and suddenly have to double their hourly wage to the minimum, it's not hard to see you have two tough choices: lay people off or raise your prices significantly. And even then, the way the math works out, you probably still are going to end up under water.

We all live in bubbles. If I'm not mistaken you live in a rather wealthy region of the country. Things may be different up there, but, for most non-chain food service outlets, the situation is already pretty dire the way it stands now. The status quo allows these businesses to stay open, while the culture provides a way for their staff to have a chance at making a decent wage via tips.

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[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The point is that tips are not some sacred server-only pay. They have to turn around and tip out other people

Which should not be their responsibility at all, regardless of what the business owner would do. It also undermines this idea that servers love working for tips, because while everyone loves being paid in cash, it’s not considered their pay alone - they’re expected to share with people earning far more than them

The restaurant owner benefits from being able to pay below minimum wage - because customers assume the tip is going to the server - while the reality of a collaborative restaurant means that tips are communal

And that’s all before we get into the shared tips bullshit the industry is moving towards. I personally know of multiple managers earning a good salary who nonetheless count themselves in the tip bucket and pocket cash - until this shit is regulated, shady people are going to be shady

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Well I guess I have a gf now, she met my fam today. I admit I'm not madly in love with her or crazy about her yet, but it has great potential.

I whined about probably breaking it off with her in one of these past threads b/c I couldn't get her off. At least not like I wanted. We've since fixed that, for the most part.

Basically I found out if she's sober, I give her the lesbian sex for foreplay. Finger the hell out of her, but way harder than I actually felt comfortable doing. Never had to be that rough with one before, but it works on her. Feels like I'm digging into her clit, and trying to push her micro dick up into her body. Guys, I don't really recommend trying that unless literally nothing else works.

The other way is to just get her high on weed/Delta8. She hasn't smoked in years, and only ever did it a couple times. For people in illegal weed states, most states still allow, "Delta 8" products that you can just buy in a CBD store, or tobacco store.

Delta 8 really is like, "Weed lite/Diet Weed." It gives the cannabis giddy/giggly, without so much, "trippy" aspect to it, for lack of a better word. Why I think it's relevant to bring up here is that I believe it to help most women achieve orgasm. I think one 25mg gummy is a good starting dose to get this.

TL;DR: Was bitching about sex with a girl who couldn't give me my male ego boost female O's... But figured out her, "combo" and that I don't even need it if I voluntary drug her first, on a specific awful, evil substance, according to most politicians. Not doctors oddly.

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Salt update:

(Long post incoming)

So I told the girl I salted the other day that I salted her. This is the first time ive ever done that. But she seemed cool and I was attracted to her enough that I would try to rope her in for the long term. I basically told her straight up, im not going to be your sugar daddy. I told her id be okay with meeting up still, but that I lied and I wouldnt give her an allowance at all. Reminder: This girl is the hottest girl ive ever been with. Her body is insane. Her ass would make any guy's mouth water. The sex was fantastic, and not just because of how she looked. I have no business even being in the same vicinity as her looks wise 🤣.

All things considered she took it pretty well. She was dejected and told me she felt used, but she didnt lash out. I asked her if she knew why I did it. She responded "Because you needed a fuck and I was stupid enough to fall for it?". I almost said "Yes." 🤣

A couple of the screenshots I grabbed (shoulda got more)

http://imgur.com/gallery/7MSmh1R

Now for the good part.

I stand firm on not being her sugar daddy. But the whole time im gassing her up with things like "You seem like an amazing girl, youre so much more than just sex to me, I really do want to be with you, I just cant be your sugar daddy". I ask her if she wants to meet tonight and she declines. I ask her how upset she is, and she says I made her cry and leave her house to go to a bar and start drinking. She tells me about how she needs a sugar daddy to support her through college and I took advantage of her blah blah blah. I ask her if we are done, she says "definitely".

I keep holding my ground. I do apologize to her, but I dont offer to rectify it. We get to the point where we are saying our goodbyes. I tell her "ill keep you added though incase you change your mind."

Silence for a few minutes.

She messages me back. "You were really craving me tonight, werent you?"

I said "A little bit".

Long story short she talks about how amazing the sex we had was last time and that type of thing and then says she wants to meet up again tonight. She even says "if you fuck me like you did last time I might just forgive you".

So I say alright and book a hotel.

I just get the cheapest one on orbitz. It ends up being really ghetto. Like, rooms accessable from the parking lot type.

She came to the hotel and I was outside waiting for her already then she went up to the second floor with me and we smoked a joint. We had a little small talk. She asked me "what I really do". And I told her id tell her after.

So we go in the room. She asks me what my real name is and I deflect it. She goes and takes a shower. Then she comes out and we fuck for like 30 mins. Totally amazing. She took another shower after and came out and was like "How mad would you be if I told you I had to go soon?"

I was like, how soon? She said "like now". I was like "id be pretty mad". Then she started talking about how she has to do school stuff (she talked about this earlier before I told her the truth) blah blah blah, so I told her she can go if we talk for a few mins first.

So I told her to get on the bed and she was looking and me like "ok, what?". I was like, so.. can we meet again? She said "we already talked about it" in a coy way. So I pressed her on it and she started talking about how she really needs a sugardaddy to support her, blah blah blah, same story as last time. I cut her off after a few words and was like "Okay, no need to tell me, thats fine".

And she was like "really, thats fine?" And im like "yup." So she gets up and starts putting her clothes on after a long silence. I just ignore her and go on my phone, and then shes like "If you want to see me again, thats up to you". So I said "oh. Now I dont want to anymore" playfully and laugh.

It went back and forth like that for a little while. I told her she could get a sugardaddy if she wants, if I can get a sugar mama. Cat and mouse a few times till im just like "okay, we will keep talking, how about that. Just talk and see what happens".

small silence

I ask her if she wants to know my name. She says yes. I tell her to give me a kiss goodbye first. She does. I tell her my real name.

She says "Oh thats sexy", then makes a joke about my name I cant reveal without doxxing myself 🤣.

She still doesnt truly know anything else about me.

We say our goodbyes and she walks out the door.

So anyways. I feel like there is a strong possibility of converting this into a plate. Maybe even something more. Id be down for it, im just going to keep my cool. I havent texted her since she left. I think ill go a day or two without messaging her to let her sit on it for a while and build tension, unless she messages me first.

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Weekly Community Chat Megathread

Comments

FAQ

Am I banned from the Reddit?

I don't believe my comment deserved a downvote. Can you un-downvote it?

How can I prevent this from happening in the future?

Title	Weekly Community Chat Megathread
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	5
Comments	4289
Date	May 31, 2021 8:00 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/npbyrx/weekly_community_chat_megathread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/weekly-community-chat-megathread.773847 https://theredarchive.com/post/773847