CMV: Most men would be content with women at least acknowledging how atrocious dating has become for males, rather than gaslighting them and insisting it was invariably something they were doing wrong or that it was their “personality.”

grown_folks_talkin · 2023-05-03T14:29:40+00:00

Dating is such a gendered experience that this expectation is lofty. Even so, when I was in a dry spell in my 20s there were women who did empathize.

Their way of expressing it was to let you down gently or to try to set you up with a friend, usually somebody you weren’t attracted to.

This was when warmish bar approaches were more common. Gentle rejections did have the impact of not making one feel like crap morally for having desires.

I don’t think that would make most men content, only an LTR/STR would do that.

thisreallyisnotok · 2023-05-04T03:49:37+00:00

I’ve said it before but the only hope is something like a Netflix series showing that a perfectly normal guy who has good hygiene, is financially responsible and is not a predator can have a lot of struggle dating.

_hephaestus · 2023-05-03T14:28:27+00:00

If you complain about something with your friends and someone hits back with "well I have it worse" they're a shit friend and that's a local problem to be addressed. If you complain about anything to an open audience you're going to be bombarded with this for just about any kind of complaint regardless of how real it is.

I hate complaining about stuff because it rarely moves progress along and pity parties aren't fun. A few of my friends have brought it up and women have been understanding, a few who were actually surprised and had a perspective dating was all rosey for men with interesting women all over the apps as opposed to the generic office quote wasteland they are.

DeshaunWalt · 2023-05-03T12:03:18+00:00

Everytime l talk about male dating issues

Immediately am met/responded with "WhAt AbOuT WoMen"

But yea it generally is tough for guys out here, especially in your teenage years/early 20s when you haven't developed your personality and are filled with ranging hormones/Testosterones

Which is why l understand guys who check out of dating permanently even though l never did, the longest l checked out and focused on other things like self-improvement was only for a year

eveleaf · 2023-05-03T17:17:22+00:00

I absolutely DO sympathize with men who find it hard to find someone. Loneliness is awful and I don't wish that on anyone. I genuinely hope everyone here can find love and companionship, if they want that.

After this it gets weird, though. As a person who never wanted casual sex and accepts many other women are like her, do I feel terrible for men seeking it and getting frustrated that no one will swipe them on whatever app they use as Amazon-for-Hookups? Not...really? I don't want these men to be unhappy per se, but there's just not going to be a surplus of casual sex-loving girls around no matter what.

It seems unfortunately logical that if casual sex is a thing craved by most men, but enjoyed by significantly fewer women, that is going to naturally result in many men not getting what they desire. If that makes them unhappy I am sad to hear it, but not sad enough that I would encourage women to "fix the problem" by having sex they otherwise wouldn't want. I'm certainly unwilling to do that myself.

Blondefairy25 · 2023-05-03T14:57:32+00:00

Oh it’s Armageddon out there. I fully acknowledge that

AngeCruelle · 2023-05-03T15:35:59+00:00

This sub is weird about simultaneously claiming that men want our empathy while also claiming that men only interact with women for sex. Therefore the conclusion commonly drawn is "by empathy these men mean sex."

Disclaimer/edit: Their have been serious unmarked changes to the post and my comment addresses the previous version

M_LaSalle · 2023-05-03T13:16:42+00:00

I actually don't give a rat's ass whether or not any woman anywhere acknowledges my dating problems. I care about solving them. The acknowledgment or women is worthless. A woman asked to acknowledge the dating problems of men can reply, reasonably enough, that she has problems of her own.

Life is unfair. Deal.

Gravel_Roads · 2023-05-03T14:39:10+00:00

My CMV starts with "I'm a man who has literally never been concerned with this, and I don't know any men who even think about this shit". So I'd hazard it's not "most men" and more that it's "the sort of men I hang out with and talk to."

Every time a man complains about how horrific dating has become they get immediately attacked, shamed and ridiculed.

Well... they often get disagreed with, for sure! Because it's not a universal experience for men. Sensitive people tend to interpret all forms of disagreement as attack, though. And it's true that men who require half the population to validate their struggles with dating will probably interpret a lack of validation as an attack.

Women and simps rush in to tell them...

You mean... women and MEN? Why is it that men who claim to struggle are "Men" but men who don't struggle are "Simps"?

MistyMaisel · 2023-05-03T18:27:23+00:00

Putting it mildly,

Until men can acknowledge that access to casual sex from bad dick or neutral dick is not "options", it is impossible to have the kind of conversation and discussion that would repair the ruptured relationship between the genders. This is largely because women are not interested in casual sex. Most women want a good relationship with a good man.

This is why all if not most of our responses constitute a thousand different ways to say "bad dick or neutral dick is not options" or "have you considered being good dick? This is what generally is considered good dick. This is how not to be bad dick or neutral dick".

And when we say this, the problem is that generally (not all), but most men will quickly prove themselves to be "bad dick" or if they're actually sort of decent, "neutral dick" with their responses while being angry at you for pointing out that yes, in fact, they are their own worst enemy on this thing.

And instead of openly considering this very basic point, which is that bad and neutral dick is not a dish we find edible, they point out that men they dislike succeed. As if men are likely to be the best judges of what women think of as "good dick". As if it is entirely impossible for a man to pretend to be "good dick" and deceive us.

And then if you happen to ever get them to agree that yes, perhaps their idea of what makes a man attractive is largely irrelevant and not at all close to what women actually like and that yes, it is possible especially for quite young and innocent women to be taken advantage of and deceived, they move to:

Well, I know a guy who seems like he has a great personality and is good looking and he's struggling too! Let's assume they're right and this guy really does have the goods and this isn't their inability to judge, which is a big stretch, but we can do it: To which women can only say, "so what? There's more to dating than having the right goods. Having the right goods is step 1. It's not have the goods and then suddenly the stork brings you women. There's environmental factors for a start. There's values for a second. There's previous histories and future plans. There's a lot more to it than just be a good guy and I'm not your fucking dating coach with enough information to explain to you why every single guy with the goods doesn't have dames all over him".

We can't even have a conversation about how to help men in dating, because we have to start from the presumption, which is a totally fucking insane presumption, that the problem is women. Even tho when we listen to women complain, it is about men being liars, men not knowing what they want, and men acting like children. Which all sound like fair complaints to make compared to the complaints I hear from men which are: Women won't give me a chance, women's standards are ridiculous, and women are fucking the wrong men (not me). Which just sound like men who don't know what they want acting like children and lying to themselves.

And despite that, I have sympathy for these men because I do believe society and culture put a lot of them in difficult positions through choices of their own that they were young and foolish enough to make and lacked the parental supervision to keep them away from. And I'm happy to try to help all of them get back on a better path, but that path does not begin with, "but women".

Lookingforlove1997 · 2023-05-03T15:36:55+00:00

Most men would not be content with that. As plenty of women are already blunt and empathetic enough and men still hate them. Women should just be apathetic and focus on prioritizing their safety and futures.

The only thing that would genuinely satisfy the majority of men is if the majority of women's sexual Preferences aligned with mens desires. Meaning if women were equally and sincerely attracted to and pursuing men all along the looks spectrum. Anything short of that men will still be upset.

RahLyt · 2023-05-03T13:14:47+00:00

Honestly I wouldn't, just accept that people can't leave their own bubbles. This goes for men and women.

I couldn't for a long time and there's definitely things I'm pretty sure still go over my head. At some point just accept the fact they won't get it and enjoy your life.

I don't understand how some random women's opinion or acknowledgement will improve your life in any way.

It can be frustrating to have the other half of the world thinking we are privileged and we don't have to work hard to earn respect etc.

But the persistence of this topic makes me understand why some women think some men want pity sex.

Fun_Community_6833 · 2023-05-03T14:19:08+00:00

“Acknowledge me!!!” - Roman Reigns.

y2kjanelle · 2023-05-03T18:02:05+00:00

What would acknowledging this do? It seems to me like the men complaining want women to “humble” themselves and pity men to the point they start having sex and dating them. Don’t think we want to be coercing people to do that.

Everyone admits that dating is not great. That’s not controversial.

The reason I personally insist that it’s these mens personalities is because I’ve given men like them a “chance” just like they said and REPEATEDLY EXPERIENCED BAD TREATMENT from them. One talked the entire time about wanting to kill himself in the past because his ex was mean and dating sucks. Another one blew up my phone and when I politely declined he called me slurs. Another one insisted I broke his heart because I didn’t want a second date. Another guy held my car door closed until I kissed him even though I didn’t want to, said no multiple times and needed to leave to use the restroom because we were in a park with no bathrooms. Another guy spouted Redpill shit and talked crap about women the entire time and then randomly asked me to give him head. Another guy threw a remote at the wall because I didn’t immediately want to rip my clothes off and have sex with him.

dealing with these men was harmful and exhausting, ime, they have been honestly horrible people.

So what sane woman would want these men? They’re mean, emotionally immature, and don’t treat women well or respect women very much. It’s hurtful to date these men and due to the fact they refuse to work on themselves as people, women don’t want to be around them and rightfully so.

tofuwings · 2023-05-03T16:39:35+00:00

Your title says that you just want women to acknowledge it’s difficult for young men trying to date. Sure, men tell me that and I believe them. Lived experience and all that.

But then the twist is in the body of your post. You actually want women to “admit” to something. We have to tell you we are privileged.

Men have to take responsibility for poisoning the well and not getting the discussion you want. I mean look at the accusatory way you’ve worded your post. Read it again and ponder if you’d do jack shit for a person who spoke to you that way.

Also, I think the greater discussion is about wealth inequality, the atomization of society, how social media is turning people inept and anxious etc.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2023-05-03T14:09:05+00:00

Next to none*

on Tinder

(It’s always Tinder and OLD here)

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2023-05-03T14:39:44+00:00

Not really. I have always agreed that dating is hard for men yet RP/Black Pill are still not content with what I have to say in arguments lol.

mc0079 · 2023-05-03T15:12:08+00:00

You simply want your personal dating issues to be seen as societal. That means it's not your fault. it's societies.

Way easier to blame "society" then actually self reflect.

Just-a-Pea · 2023-05-03T19:52:37+00:00

What data is that? I suspect that when you say “women” you refer only to physically attractive women. But when you say men, you refer only to leas physically attractive men. Many women also get rejected/ignored due to poor personality or unattractive physique.

Purple317 · 2023-05-03T17:20:55+00:00

One thing I’ve noticed on this sub: men (generally) refuse to change their behaviors in any way in order to bring about the changes in gender dynamics they are looking for.

Men on here say it’s unfair that they have to be the one to initiate dates, to pay for first dates, and that they always feel pressure to appear masculine, confident, capable etc. That they feel they can’t ever be vulnerable with a woman, because she might get the “ick” and she has a string of orbiters waiting to take his place, etc.

The thing is…in order to make widespread changes in gender norms, men collectively have to be willing to say “fuck it” the way women have historically done. They have to say no, I’m not going to perform this outdated gender role anymore. I’m going to do X instead. But guys on here will say “well if I do that, I won’t get sex / a relationship!” Well, fortune favors the bold. If men (collectively) aren’t willing to risk anything to enact the societal changes they want, then nothing will change. Men weren’t thrilled about women leaving the kitchen, wearing pants, getting education and careers etc….but enough women said “fuck it, we’re doing it anyway” that men had to adapt.

JonMyMon · 2023-05-03T17:21:34+00:00

The problem is, when women hear men say that men have it harder, they get defensive cause they feel like you’re telling them that women don’t have it hard. It’s as understandable as it is frustrating.

VTHokie2020 · 2023-05-03T13:50:21+00:00

Sure, but it also helps to acknowledge the issues women face. Empathy goes both ways.

Also, 'ruptured relationship between genders' is extreme. This isn't some breaking political border conflict.

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-05-03T13:27:09+00:00

women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none

That’s the problem, this part isn’t true and mathematically can’t be when there are approximately the same number of men and women in the world. Most women do not actually wish to share men, most women’s options are absolutely limited, and most men do have some options.

I have sympathy for men struggling to date and do not think it’s always due to something they can easily control. But this type of rhetoric makes women lose sympathy because we don’t just have endless dating options and no struggles. Most men don’t show a lot of empathy for women who are unattractive and not getting dates.

AstronautLoveShack · 2023-05-03T14:34:58+00:00

No they wouldn’t. I’ve tried that before. The response is invariably something along the lines of “Then have sex with an incel, it won’t kill you.”

Honestly if they were lonely and wanted a girlfriend, I’d be even more sympathetic. But most of them don’t. They want to be Chad and have a harem.

badgersonice · 2023-05-03T13:46:16+00:00

Lol, no they absolutely wouldn’t be content.

I acknowledge it, especially with respect to online dating, and triply so for casual sex. There actually are a lot of decent men who just can’t seem to catch a break, or are stuck in a failure loop, or can’t get a bite from anyone and are flailing trying to figure out a way to succeed (and nothing seems like it will work).

But it doesn’t change anything. Does my acknowledging that men have a harder time finding what they want in dating make any difference whatsoever? Nope.

Do any men feel “content” if I acknowledge that yeah, sometimes it just sucks for them? Lol, nope. And I’m not going to lie to myself or flatter myself in thinking I did anything to “repair the ruptured relationship between the genders”. That ship sailed a long time before your modern dating complaints.

The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none.

You don’t need to exaggerate, though. “Nearly limitless” options only exist for a small group of women— they may be the only women you give a shit about, but they ain’t all women.

Edit: The thing that would do the most to repair gender relationships an immediate ban all dating apps and social media. Yes, including Reddit.

BigVulvaEnergy · 2023-05-03T16:20:44+00:00

You want women to acknowledge what exactly?

Women also face rejection, heartbreak, pain, loneliness, etc.

If you have a problem dating, it's YOUR problem. Something you're doing is repelling people. Period.

UpbeatInsurance5358 · 2023-05-03T13:10:34+00:00

Perhaps it's simply that what people are looking for are different things.

begayallday · 2023-05-03T20:21:01+00:00

Attractive women have limitless options. Unattractive women have a few bad options, at best. It’s difficult for me to have a lot of sympathy when I know firsthand that most men are limiting their options by being superficial.

lolthankstinder · 2023-05-03T14:32:14+00:00

Women genuinely don’t understand what men go through and place more importance on their own plights. For example, a woman may cite “safety” to justify profiling men as threats, stigmatizing men as criminals, and pathologizing male sexual desire. In reality this is just sexism. Furthermore, there is male hyperagency and female hypoagency bias. For many domains including dating, men are generally perceived as having more agency and are more often individualistically blamed. Finally, there is the “women are wonderful” effect which refers to the tendency to view women more positively than men and can lead to more favorable treatment of women in certain contexts as well as a lack of empathy or concern for men, and the belief that men are less deserving of support or attention in certain contexts.

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Early-Christmas-4742 · 2023-05-03T15:44:32+00:00

A lot of people are happy when people say none of their problems are their fault, that's not a reason to do it!

2023-05-03T21:23:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

OptimistInHell · 2023-05-04T19:22:43+00:00

Everyone ITT believes their lived experience actually amounts to some semblance of compelling data or meaningful experience in lieu of their poor comprehension abilities.

george__whorewell · 2023-05-04T19:34:43+00:00

Oftentimes (NOT ALWAYS), both are true; a lot of men struggle with dating, and very often personality is the problem.

Sinity · 2023-05-04T20:59:36+00:00

Yes, kinda. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

I do not think men should be entitled to sex, I do not think women should be “blamed” for men not having sex, I do not think anyone owes sex to anyone else, I do not think women are idiots who don’t know what’s good for them, I do not think anybody has the right to take it into their own hands to “correct” this unsettling trend singlehandedly.

But when you deny everything and abuse anyone who brings it up, you cede this issue to people who sometimes do think all of these things. And then you have no right to be surprised when all the most frequently offered answers are super toxic.

There is a very simple reply to the question which is better than anything feminists are now doing. It is the answer I gave to my patient Dan: “Yeah, things are unfair. I can’t do anything about it, but I’m sorry for your pain. Here is a list of resources that might be able to help you.”

There is also a more complicated reply, which I am not qualified to compose, but I think the gist of it would be something like:

Personal virtue is not very well correlated with ease of finding a soulmate. It may be only slightly correlated, uncorrelated, or even anti-correlated in different situations. Even smart people who want various virtues in a soulmate usually use them as a rule-out criterion, rather than a rule-in criterion – that is, given someone whom they are already attracted to, they will eliminate him if he does not have those virtues. The rule-in criterion that makes you attractive to people is mysterious and mostly orthogonal to virtue.

This is true both in men and women, but in different ways. Male attractiveness seems to depend on things like a kind of social skills which is not necessarily the same kind of social skills people who want to teach you social skills will teach, testosterone level, social status, and whatever you call the ability to just ask someone out, consequences be damned. These can be obtained in very many different ways that are partly within your control, but they are complicated and subtle and if you naively aim for cliched versions of the terms you will fail. There is a lot of good discussion about how to get these things. Here is a list of resources that might be able to help you.

Of course, then you’ve got to have your resource list. And – and this is the part of this post I think will be controversial (!), I think a lot of the appropriate material is concentrated in the manosphere, ie the people who do not hate your guts merely for acknowledging the existence of the issue. Yes, it is interspersed with poisonous beliefs about women being terrible, but if you have more than a quarter or so of a soul, it is pretty easy to filter those out and concentrate on the good ones.

Many feminists will say there are no good ones and that they are all exactly the same, but you should not believe them for approximately the same reason you should not believe anyone else who claims the outgroup is completely homogenous and uniformly evil.

NerdvenGeekburg · 2023-05-05T00:13:11+00:00

They know it's true. That's enough for me. 😂

RedditAlt999 · 2023-05-05T01:31:58+00:00

That would mean women would have to look into their own behavior, take accountability, and change. Most of them hate the notion of even considering that possibility.

Coolio_Street_Racer · 2023-05-03T16:04:58+00:00

Literally bruh just acknowledgement. I had to improve myself for 2 years physically, mentally, and finically to have the same pull as some broke average looking 20 something chick.

midwesternMD · 2023-05-03T22:17:48+00:00

Hard disagree.

Men that are unhappy with their dating outcomes might appreciate women acknowledging their plight. But after getting that validation, they will want a solution. At the very least, most men favor actionable solutions to their problems.

I see this all the time at work. I can take as much time as I like to gently tell a patient that their situation sucks and empathize with them, but their next question is invariably “how can I fix this?” And the honest answer is frequently “you can’t.” Nobody- men or women- takes kindly to learning that truth, regardless of whether I take the extra time and energy to try to empathize. I still take that step because it matters for various billing metrics, but simply acknowledging someone’s struggle is seldom enough.

Freethinker312 · 2023-05-03T12:32:30+00:00

The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none.

Options for what? Options to have sex? Options to have instable relationships with men who watched porn for years and expect their partner to do things with which she is not really comfortable? Options to risk spending their fertile years with men who in the end don't want to marry or don't want to have children?

I think the main protest of women here is not against men complaining about how hard dating is, but against these allegedly plenty of options that women would have according to part of men who are complaining about dating.

Finding someone with who is suitable to spend the rest of your life with, and to have children with, is difficult for a lot of people, men and women. Some have more luck with it than others.

A big problem in dating nowadays is that for a lot of men and women it is difficult to meet each other and get to know each other in real life, outside of bars/clubs. This is especially difficult for people who have no or a very small social circle around them.

Soloandthewookiee · 2023-05-03T13:35:00+00:00

The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none.

And as long as dudes online keep peddling this garbage, nobody is going to care about making them feel better.

KayRay1994 · 2023-05-03T14:48:40+00:00

here’s the thing though - many women have/do acknowledge men’s issues when it comes to dating - the reason why many men don’t see it is because they don’t like the answers/ solutions offered by women - ie. many women tell men to look inward, emotionally grow, solve their own problems and work on their personality (which should 100% be done), but many men reject it right off the bat and insist that nothing can be done.

That being said, I think women can do be a better job at sympathizing with the fact that such changes are difficult and can take time, but also many women are on edge because said men are often angry, defensive and reactionary to the point of both genders actively provoking each other.

But, women do have the power in this situation, id argue, since many men in this realm are frankly emotional reactionaries, they’ll never self reflect until they feel like it is safe to - so you can tell list off all the ways these guys are shooting themselves on the leg (which…. they totally are), but sympathy is important, and the reason why I think its important for women to do this is because these men primarily have their guard up when dealing with women, so while they’ll only listen to men for actual guidance or advice, most of the frustration said men have is driven by being defensive towards women - which is partly why they turn to horrible men for guidance, cause they feed these defensive tendencies.

From my view, if a woman can be more sympathy i to the causes of men’s issues and resist the urge to respond in defense, these men will be far more open to listening to men who don’t feed these reactionary urges.

Zombombaby · 2023-05-03T15:37:36+00:00

Life is hard for everyone and yet we're all supposed to just make it work. I'm sorry you're struggling and I'm sorry you're just starting to realize you're not special for it.

ElectricCollars · 2023-05-03T12:50:27+00:00

I personally understand that, but I argue with men who say they have no success because of ONE physical quality (likely being short), and that's the only reason women pass him up. It's not. It might be why you get swiped left on if you list your height, but mid-late 20s women are way less shallow than those men try to suggest. Some women will be shallow at any age. I get that.

But, when women here, like myself, say they're dating a short guy, they ALWAYS say he's the son of an inheritance who has a 6 pack, and the ability to swoon any girl. When I say that's not correct, they assume I'm ugly, which is also objectively incorrect. They don't want to face that their shitty personality is the driving force in creating their loneliness, and if they just got some actual confidence instead of fake projection-confidence, they might surprise themselves and land a date or two.

I'm just saying some men here try to discredit relationships that don't fit their excuse to stay single as an attempt to place blame elsewhere. I do agree that men have it way harder than women in just finding potential interests

Straight_Plenty6244 · 2023-05-03T14:21:43+00:00

We have quantity not quality. No end of porn sick men with no drive, sat in front of a screen neglecting their health. We can get dates, it’s a different set of problems finding someone with their shit together

ffandyy · 2023-05-03T14:09:16+00:00

Maybe if men on reddit weren’t constantly blaming women for their own struggles they might receive more sympathy.

wtknight · 2023-05-03T12:32:30+00:00

My wife would never acknowledge this, since she is from a country that most western men could travel to and find a female partner easily if they really put in the effort to do that. So I wouldn’t be content with her lying and telling me otherwise.

YuekiXC · 2023-05-03T20:29:15+00:00

Imagine wanting women to care about a man's problem. Bro, I'm in the same boat as you and I will never expect women to ever care about our issues, period. Too many biological and pyschological differences.

I heard this good quote that really helps explain this difference between men and women, "Men are born to die, woman are born to live."

Sure, it might be too much of a generalization, but it gets the point across nicely. How can a women, who was born to do something entirely else from a man, possibly empathize with our issues? Only someone like Jesus or God could do that.

januaryphilosopher · 2023-05-03T12:22:45+00:00

That's not going to happen because it isn't one-sided "atrocious". For someone to acknowledge your struggles you also need to not belittle theirs.

gofigure62 · 2023-05-03T18:12:21+00:00

Women do acknowledge that dating is difficult. Most people are aware that it's hard to find the right person these days.

However, with the internet, people are going to extend on that notion and share their own opinions. Some men are horrible people and their inability to date is because of their personality. Of course this doesn't apply to all men, but it is a reality for some men.

Some people are the reason why they're single. Sometimes people are single because they're just not compatible with the general population where they live. Some people are just surrounded by unsuitable options.

Most opinions regarding dating (even the unsavory opinions) are true. Everything can be true all at once when discussing an entire sex.

shine_light888 · 2023-05-03T22:49:42+00:00

Dating is atrocious for women too. What you guys don’t understand is if you come at women from the approach of wanting them as a person instead of a sex object, you’ll get better results.

We have options but most options are just out for one thing.. so that’s not really options as far as we are concerned.

The amount of men that are actually looking for commitment is about the same as your options to get laid.

Gilmoregirlin · 2023-05-03T13:36:57+00:00

This horse has been beaten to death ! Why is it a competition? Dating is a struggle for both men and women just in different ways. Women have access to sex NOT relationships. They are two totally different things.

Sobriebeans · 2023-05-03T21:40:17+00:00

Why don’t you have women in your real life offline to talk to and empathize with you? Or better yet male friends and family? Why is this the burden of anonymous women online.

JVonPolo · 2023-05-03T12:24:59+00:00

Women have it 10x worse when it comes to everything else but men have literally ZERO sympathy for women. So why would we care really? But in fact women still do care. They praise dadbods to make men feel better, men just degrade ugly women, women feel super guilty when they reject good men, men ignore or reject ugly but good women without feeling anything, women feel bad for lonely men, men mock lonely women etc etc.

Also men created these women-prey, men-predator, female promiscuity = evil concepts and they are responsible for sexual violence being extremely high. Of course as a result women are picky, scared of men and not very attracted to them.

Aromatic_Ad5473 · 2023-05-03T13:22:45+00:00

Why though? Why so you need a “poor baby that must be hard for you” when the reality is that it’s equally hard for women?

The data is NOT in. Women don’t have “nearly limitless options”

Men complain women don’t date short men but men don’t date fat women

Men complain women don’t want to date a guy without money but men don’t want to date a women who has kids or has had previous partners

Men complain that women don’t pay for their own meals and women complain that men expect to get laid because they bought her a burger

You’ll have a hard time getting women to acknowledge that men have an “atrocious” time dating because our definitions of atrocious are worlds apart.

reignoferror00 · 2023-05-03T22:03:18+00:00

I'm sure an acknowledgement would be that much of a positive.

Now, if they didn't usually frame woman's basic instinctual nature as by default "good" and men's as by default "bad" that would be something. If more women outright acknowledged their own shallowness (towards looks and otherwise) that would be a refreshing change.

A little less actions that lean strongly towards "plausible deniability" and more direct action would be a huge surprise.

2023-05-04T00:10:13+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Peacesquad · 2023-05-03T14:55:25+00:00

You have to remember women don’t have empathy for men and are biologically hardwired to be solipsistic, extract resources from men and give them to herself and her child. Don’t blame them

ChadChasingB · 2023-05-03T13:00:07+00:00

demonstrably false as even attractive men with loads of personality struggle

They don't. Attractive men do not struggle unless they're ND.

DiamondLilyD · 2023-05-03T14:07:26+00:00

how horrific dating has become

Please explain how dating has become 'horrific' for men?

operapeach · 2023-05-03T18:15:03+00:00

They would not be content with that

Men here genuinely and honestly believe that they have a harder time than gay people dating which is laughable

MyLastBestChance · 2023-05-03T12:22:35+00:00

Zero hedge is back again 🤣🤣🤣

AwesomeRocky-18- · 2023-05-03T21:13:36+00:00

That’s because women also face their own difficulties when dating that the men on here refuse to acknowledge. Your post is asking people to sympathize and acknowledge that victims of earthquakes have it worse than victims of hurricanes when both are tragedies.

cult_angel · 2023-05-03T22:25:52+00:00

Maybe because you lot act like it is the most oppressing experience to not have an upper hand in dating, as if it’s the worst thing one could ever go through, but it’s actually not that bad in comparison to other things happening in the world and many people feel like you guys would do better practicing gratitude than whining. No one likes a complainer, especially one that complains about things others find to be insignificant. Life is very difficult, there’s not a defect in anyone for struggling with it, but the best you can do is take it in stride and work with what you have, same as everyone else. So in a way it’s both the reality of your situation coupled with your personality, which makes it worse. Desire leads to suffering, you will forever be a slave to the wheel if you let external desire drive you.

nicoleberry16 · 2023-05-03T23:55:28+00:00

Dating isn't "AtRoCiOUs" for all guys. That's a generalized projection of experiences from unattractive men who are b i t t e r . And nobody's saying gaslighting men saying that it's personality. I feel like we have thoroughly dispelled that myth as a society.

tldr; Complaining about the rules of a game is pathetic when you aren't even qualified to play.

MrHustleTopG · 2023-05-03T19:08:22+00:00

We really doing this now? Calling everything gaslighting like we women or some shit? Women don’t get our side and ig we don’t get theirs but so what mang? Stop this moaning and crying and work on yourself don’t focus on bitches damn.

anonymous375555 · 2023-05-03T12:38:46+00:00

Yes , I acknowledge your suffering, dating is a horrible experience for men, but don’t worry it is just a matter of a couple of more years and all will end!

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gopher_glitz · 2023-05-03T13:26:20+00:00

When sisters, mothers and friends that are women complain that their 'great' brother/son/friend is really having a hard time due to the socioeconomic climate in dating, it very much, "I KNOW right!" People feel heard.

GlasgaAccentfurYanks · 2023-05-03T16:19:11+00:00

Well...

This is something that will never change as long as the ego exists.

It is unfortunately programming for survival misplaced, when "who has it worse" has kudos - a badge of war merit - who can justify their misery by external points of information - I think it is a good depletion of energy to even entertain "how bad it is for men" - Jesus Christ our culture is born from a living hell - imagine 100 years ago - too much thinking, analyzing - retreating. Let the Women have the complaint of the century, agree - who fucking cares should be the point. You are living a unique experience, until you can understand that this dreaded weight of some shameful impossible hill to overcome will be a bother at the door of every opportunity and hope.

bananachipking · 2023-05-03T16:23:48+00:00

Yes this is absolutely true

Ohyarlysmiles · 2023-05-03T16:43:13+00:00

I don't believe dating is horrific. I have a good time.

However every man has to put up with or tolerate or work around general female behavior, be it flakiness, caprice, etc.

I don't care if women acknowledge the male experience in dating. They're free to choose who they choose and behave however they like.

InLivingColor7 · 2023-05-03T17:17:25+00:00

Why do you care about womens acknowledgment?

grendalor · 2023-05-03T19:32:24+00:00

It's not a reasonable expectation. Men and women desire different things in this specific area (dating and mating), and so it isn't reasonable for men to expect sympathy from women for the fact that men aren't getting what they want, when their "want" is not considered a legitimate one by many women to begin with (either because it's "wanting out of their league" or "wanting casual sex which is always going to be harder to get" or something similar). The two sexes are really different about this, because the "wants" are often different when it comes to the kinds of things being discussed in this sub.

LowCreddit · 2023-05-03T19:40:31+00:00

It doesn't matter and wouldn't repair shit. You can only change the laws and incentive structures to fix the situation. Paraplegics don't want Get Well cards. They want their legs.

AlmostKindaGreat · 2023-05-03T20:52:24+00:00

I don't think it's possible to measure whether one subjective experience is "worse" than the other. With men and women we can't quantify their different problems with "pain points" or whatever and compare them.

That said, it seems clear to me that there is a huge problem for men dealing with a changing and vague concept of masculinity and unhelpful and contradictory mainstream advice that keeps us stuck and helpless.

So I disagree somewhat that we have to convince women that our problems are somehow proportionally worse.

What I do want is for women to acknowledge that there is a problem and men do not currently have the tools to solve them from mainstream sources. Only then can we cooperatively develop a solution that is win-win for men and women.

There are open minded women on this sub and I'm grateful for them. Out in the wild you get blank stares (at best) for suggesting men have problems at all.

EdwardTheeMasterful · 2023-05-03T23:51:49+00:00

That part about personality not mattering for attractive men is true. If the guy is attractive enough to the woman he can be misogynistic as all get out. The atomic black pill did some sort of project on this.

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