~ archived since 2018 ~

Single Men vs Single Women

November 21, 2022
101 upvotes

As a regular visitor and commenter in this sub it’s easy to see some key issues that get discussed here.

Usually, the comments made here do not translate well into real life; however there is one topic that I have seen talked about on Reddit and regular mainstream news.

The dangers of being single.

It’s interesting how this topic changes in intensity depending on gender. How the media talks about single men and single women is very different.

Let’s look at “involuntarily” single women:

  • Will be alone at the end of their life.
  • Possibly financially unstable.
  • Still able to have sex, not able to get commitment.
  • may blame themselves for their situation.
  • May convince others to not seek relationships with such urgency

Now for involuntary single men:

  • Angry and volatile at their situation.
  • May contribute to hostile movements either online or in person.
  • Blames others for their situation and feels like they are in a loosing battle.
  • General worry that these men need to get into relationships before they reach the end of their ropes.

Why is it that single men seem to treat being single as a justification for violence? Even here, it’s often said that “unwanted men will eventually say they’ve had enough”. There is a threat that’s hanging over the heads of women and wanted men, that doesn’t happen when the discussion is focused on single women.

The hatred that single men may embody for themselves and the world around them is now an issue women have been asked to consider.

Single men have weaponized their relationship status: made it a movement and a battle cry: so I ask, what can be done?

One of the main issues I see is men discussing not having access to the women they want. The women they want are used up. The women they want don’t want them.

Honestly, what can we even do to fix that?

Why are involuntarily single women not expressing the same violent behaviors, especially when they have much more to lose, much more quickly than the single man?

There are invisible women out here that halve never been given attention. Some have never even had someone only want them for access to sex. Their chance at motherhood and family has passed them, or will soon pass them by, and they are sad, depressed, despondent even, but not livid.

Whats going wrong here?

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[–]NOTSM 152 points153 points  (112 children) | Copy Link

Involuntary single men are considerably more violent than their female counterparts. The same is true for voluntarily single men, men in relationships and any other demographics you can think of

Men are just straight up more violent than women

[–]WideAwake550 39 points40 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

At least you acknowledged that it's not an "incel boogeyman" thing like everyone else does.

In all my 30 years living in a major city in the South, I never met an actual incel in my life.

[–]ffandyy 26 points27 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

You probably wouldn’t notice on if you had, they do all their work online.

[–]WideAwake550 6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I'm not ruling that out but I also know tons of people. Literally hundreds of people/followers on my IG/Facebook pages mainly within the same area.

I put incels in the same category as the Alt Right in terms of presence.

[–]ffandyy 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

As would most people, a vocal minority. Still have the potential to do damage though.

[–]WideAwake550 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Sure but compared to who?

Why worry specifically about incels committing the occasional mass shooting as opposed to mass shootings in general?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2022/07/04/us-mass-shootings-hover-near-record-breaking-levels/?sh=4f7860415f62

It's not like the U.S. is devoid of shootings/killings and incels are somehow overrepresented in this regard?

[–]ffandyy 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Why not worry about both?

[–]WideAwake550 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You basically made my case for me and don't even realize it.

I'm saying we should just say that America has a mass shooting problem in general and trying to condense it to certain groups is a red herring.

In one week in May of 2022, we had a White supremacist in Buffalo, a deranged teenager in Texas, and an old Taiwanese man in the OC commit mass shootings. There's no need to try to pin it on certain groups

[–]M_LaSalle 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Apparently incels are becoming a bit like Goldstein. No one has seen him lately, but we are told by the Party that he is to be blamed for everything

[–]ffandyy -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That might be a slight exaggeration

[–]flow3rpowrBlue Pill Woman -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn women are mega based

[–]Peacesquad -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Obviously

[–]Due-Lie-8710 65 points66 points  (138 children) | Copy Link

Society places of alot of a man worth on how much money they and how much sex they have, if they don't succeed in both they are both shunned and socially isolated

[–]localmicrodosechamp 3 points4 points  (60 children) | Copy Link

so men should listen to feminists who say this is "toxic masculinity" and not a real thing men should aspire to.

[–]hopeidontforget2021 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Aside from feminists well versed in literature and theory majority of women in society will engage in reaffirming 'toxic masculinity'.

[–]Angelio72 -1 points0 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

But females who say this are way to bad at looking at themselves. They say toxic masculinity then 3 smirnoff ice they hang around gang members . They talk about beauty standards yet there 3 last sexual partners has been big black men

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Exactly... but feminist should aswell change their behaviors and give less benefit to strong and successful men than to weak and unsuccessful men, otherwise it brings nothing

[–]localmicrodosechamp 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

women don't exist to reward men into good behavior

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Not at all, and they actually never did.

But how do you want men to behave in ways which will play against their odds in dating? What will they gain from it

I am telling you this as a very progressive guy, feminist, who realized late that many close women who were vocals against toxic masculinity still preferred toxic men in their bed.

[–]insertcredit2Purple Pill Man - Married - INTP -1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that toxic masculinity is often code for what you have to do to be successful. Working long hours, taking risks, being competitive etc.

It's a prisoners dilemma that if you don't want to work hard then someone will and you'll be left behind and they'll have lots of success. The feminist argument suddenly ends up with calling men who aren't successful losers and don't deserve a girlfriend or they suggest communism to stop the drive to have higher status than the next guy.

[–]ppdbanker 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the issue here is that men react violently to that shunning while women aren't reacting dangerously when shunned for being ugly or not having men.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

its not that they arent reacting violent , some are, and some have other ways of causing harm to a guy

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 19 points20 points  (73 children) | Copy Link

It’s similar with women though. Despite attempts to change it, women still get judged through a lens of what kind of man they can attract and keep.

[–]Peacesquad 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s been like this since the beginning of time and it will never ever change. Period

[–]Due-Lie-8710 33 points34 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

I don't think that's true , women aren't judged by what kind of men they attract , they are judged on appearance but in a way its still more socially accepted for women to fail in this account

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 15 points16 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Actually no. Women are judged by the type of man they can get. It’s more prevalent when a man looses success: a woman is often chastised for not choosing better. If she gets cheated on she should have seen it. While on its face, women are sympathized with, what’s more important is what is said and done when that woman is not in the room. When a husband cheats, it’s common for someone to be asked “well why did he feel the need to cheat?” “What weren’t you giving him?”

[–]Due-Lie-8710 8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I've are talking about single men and women thou

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, and single women often get judged by the type of men they can attract. But I’m also trying to figure out how it can be fixed if men are the ones causing the violence: should women just be made too afraid to say no?

[–]Due-Lie-8710 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it matters who cause the violence, there are men who are violent and aren't single and they still attract women

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes but those men are not writing manifestos and getting praise on dark sides of the internet.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know majority of the incels actually are non violent they also don't condone violence , there is also the fact that that while single women as a group aren't violent I disagree with the notion that some individual women are not violent or destructive they absolutely are they just don't do as much damage as men due to a lot of factors

[–]anonymousUser1SHIFT 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

To fix your "violence" problem I would argue more social support and support networks, as well as, better inclusion and empathy from women.

One of the biggest things that I see on forms like these is that lots of women are constantly talking down and telling men to fix them selfs. "Men are attacking men, that sound like something men need to fix" is a common saying I see here.

This is an inherent issue that we need to address. There were women who were advocating for Wade vs Roe to be overturned, and way more men who where against it being overturned that for it. However I constantly see women, especially here, always playing the "men wanted abortion rights overturned".

Just like womens fight to vote, there were both men and women on both sides of the fight, thus this is not just a "man" problem.

So let's get into it. Lets start with abuse. Men are not just abused by men. it's just men tend to be more physically with their abuse however emotional abuse is just as damaging.

Men are actually very commonly abused by women, with the reported domestic abuse rates being 40% male to 60% female. Moreover there is a secondary problem where way way to many people are conditioned to believe that a woman hitting a guy is not abuse because "he is a big strong man and she is a tinny weak women". Just look at AH vs Dep trial and how no one believed Dep until a televised trial.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all this to bash women men also abuse men, however, I find female abuse against men it very much not recognized or dealt with. (The USA doesn't even recognize males as being able to be a domestic abuse victim. The first women that was convinced of domestic abuse in England was in 2018.).

Now how does abuse play into it, well quite frankly it's been shown abused people tend to abuse others.

Just look at the older male population, their are a good number of older males that have anger and drinking issue that them selfs were subjected to physical and even sexual abuse in their early stages of life.

I know that's a hard pill to swallow because everyone wants to villanafy people who hurt them, and the easiest way to do that is by believing that they are intentionally abusive because they are bad people. Unfortunately the majority or abusers are not actually aware that they are abusive.

One of the most important things that comes out if this is the support and empathy that comes from women, not because men don't have support or empathy for other men, but because women are half the population and biological attraction drives change (women wouldn't use all this makeup, push-up bras, active wear, etc if it didn't help them find a partner).

Lets take for example male rape victim. All rape fucking sucks and shouldn't happen. However its has some unexpected nock on effect for men. A number of studies have shown that largely women lose attraction with men that have had a sexual encounter with another male, regardless of consent or not, so a man can never share his traumatic experience until late into the relationship. This could lead into him ending up just rejecting apart of himself.

[–]Da_Famous_Anus 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No. Appearance is what matters.

[–]ChefPsychological302 4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Very True, l have never seen Society go rough on women because of this

[–]Dafiro93 -2 points-1 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Depends on society, I guess. I grew in an Asian household and the amount of pressure that women are under to be a certain weight is enormous. My teenage cousins who were not toothpick thin were sometimes given weight loss drinks like slimfast instead of dinner. Heck even I was told to lose weight around Christmas last year because I was 175 lbs at 5'10.

[–]Peacesquad -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s why asian countries have low obesity rates. They don’t have body positivity like fat ass America

[–]ChefPsychological302 -1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Well sure l guess it can depend on the Society, But in most parts of Western and Eastern Societies Men are pressures more to reach this expectations

[–]Dafiro93 -1 points0 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit. I live in the US and I can say most people here are not under any pressure to reach this expectation. If they were, people wouldn't be fucking 300 lbs and content lmao. It's not even just women in the US but also men. So many guys that would rather play video games instead of regularly exercising. Where is all this pressure when people literally eat fast food all the time? I mean I hear about women with eating disorders due to weight, but men don't mind eating Taco Bell and Mountain Dew that it's become a meme hahah.

[–]Peacesquad 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

False

[–]Dafiro93 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

What's false?

[–]Peacesquad 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Most men are under pressure to perform tremendously. And yes 75% and growing of Americans are obese 40% women 35% men, I don’t know if they’ve updated the census though yet

[–]Peacesquad -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Burden of performance it’s called

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Don't incels believe women only go for high value men though, and partly for social status?

[–]Due-Lie-8710 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What does that have to do with the value of a woman

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You're saying women aren't judged on the type of men they date. I'm saying it's common intelligence philosophy to believe women date for social cache. Why would a woman date for social cache if she wasn't judged on who she dated? There just wouldn't be the social mechanism to make that happen at the gendered level.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

judgement is different from value, men are judged for sexual competence, thats not the only way they are valued thou, or thats not even how they are valued

[–]Gilmoregirlin 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Appearance, are they feminine enough , whether they chose to work or be a more traditionally wife, whether they chose to have kids or not, whether their job is traditionally masculine, what is wrong with them that they are not married, whether they dress too sexy, if they are fat or skinny, their age too young or too old, whether they have sex too soon or not soon enough, shall I go on? Women are judged very harshly by society but because it's been this way for so long most women are used to it. It has not been this way in the same vein for men for so long and so I think many are in denial that it's their own faults that they cannot get in relationships, the first step of grief is denial. So they look for something or someone else to blame and yes of course they become angry and bitter but they are products of their own though process. If you feel that your predicament is truly outside of your control then you will become angry and bitter. When you accept responsibility at least you have the chance to change it.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i disagree with this, men are also judge harshly by society, infact i would argue violence in men has gone way down, i dont think they are in denial because the majority of men arent angry and bitter about being single, some are and sometimes its out of their control , i can agree that some of them should take some responsibility but i think other factors play a big role for men like mainly economic factors and appearance and education, environment , mental issues , its not just because they arent trying hard enough unless you believe the same applies to women , for every woman who complains about being ghosted or just being used as a hook up, or complaining about how men dont want to commit to them or only see them as the fun girl, or because they are fat or rich , because they are more educated , because they are ugly , have high body count or their job , do you think its their choice and its because they refuse to take responsibility , because if yes then i would concede that men arent accepting responsibility for their failure in entering relationships

[–]Lanzienator 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think that's true , women aren't judged by what kind of men they attract , they are judged on appearance but in a way its still more socially accepted for women to fail in this account

What??? Women are taught from childhood that our worth comes from our ability to land a man. If we can't, we're shrews, spinsters, pathetic lonely cat ladies.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

yes land a man, not what kind of man they attract , the ability to do it comes from appearance

[–]Lanzienator -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I framed it that way because the main post itself is about "involuntary single women" but ok sure..... you think a woman's social capital is determined by her ability to be able to attract one single man in the world, ANY man, and any qualities that particular man might have are irrelevant? That doesn't make sense.

Of course there's a hierarchy of social capital based on the "quality" (big scare quotes on that) of man a woman can attract. Historically, amongst upper class whites at especially, attracting an upper class man to marry, reproduce with and reinforce entrenched social hierarchies was like, literally your only job.

Like, in this regard red pillers aren't completely wrong when it comes to recognizing how our society it set up to serve the interests of rich men.

[–]Peacesquad -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes they are

[–]RocinanteCoffee 12 points13 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

Yeah exactly. There is no equivalent "insult" for men to "crazy cat lady". Single men older in age are called things like 'seasoned bachelors'. Women are called "old maids". One is obviously far more flattering a description than the other.

[–]AutomaticMeaning3844 14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, men of all ages are called incel virgin losers.

[–]cromulent_weasel 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Single men older in age are called things like 'seasoned bachelors'.

Or 'creepy old guy'.

[–]RocinanteCoffee 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They're only called creepy old guys if they are hitting on children or not respecting people's time and personal space.

[–]Luciansleep5’6 pretty boy 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

“Milf”

[–]RocinanteCoffee 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Milfs are usually a lot younger and are not single.

[–]Luciansleep5’6 pretty boy 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

They are literally around 40-50

[–]RocinanteCoffee 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The crazy cat lady/old maid tropes are usually retirement age (65-75+) and don't have children or spouses like many called 'MILF' do.

[–]Werewolf1810 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Both the “seasoned bachelor” and milf labels usually refer to people in the 35-55ish age groups. Both men and women above that age are very rarely seen in any kind of romantic light by anyone, except for extremely exceptional cases (William Shatner, Christie Brinkley, etc)

[–]Luciansleep5’6 pretty boy 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Weirdly enough I see some men and women calling older women milfs that don’t even have children.

Also most people are not judging elderly people.

[–]Diddy_1978 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nope. 30ish, apparently

[–]Peacesquad 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A man has to earn bachelor status though. Being single at 42 and working at a car wash doesn’t make you a bachelor

[–]Ass-a-holic -1 points0 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Yeah there is, incel

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

seasoned bachelors

As if this isn't just media-friendly code for "sad old bastard".

It's as much a euphemism as "tired and emotional", which is just a fancy way of saying "absolutely wasted and causing a scene".

[–]AutomaticMeaning3844 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, they're judged on an easier metric. Unfortunately in modern times, women are seen as "making it" dating wise if they date and sleep around a lot. Women brag about all the dates and attention and men they sleep with with each other and the woman who is holding out for a boyfriend is seen as lower status than the women dating around.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Definitely not seen as lower status. That’s misrepresentation spread to make feminist look debased. Really it’s about women making their own choices.

Trust me, women aren’t shaming other women for holding out. Some are telling them to manage expectations and realize that Prince Charming may not be perfect.

[–]trail22 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you think men care about what type of men the platonic women in their life can get ?

[–]Diddy_1978 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean… unless you go around parading your lack of sex, nobody knows. And I have never seen anyone ‘shunned’ for not having a gf or for earning less, except in very posh circles. Working class are doing just fine, from a romantic/ sexual point of view.

[–][deleted]  (39 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted]  (21 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why are you guys not getting together and start building support networks for each other? Why do you expect women to solve that?

All the stuff your talking about like shelters etc was fought for and organised by years of struggle in the feminist movement. It’s the result of women organising shit with each other to support each other. I don’t see men doing that.

[–]Holden_Frame 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why are you guys not getting together and start building support networks for each other?

Because women have spent the past few decades dismantling those "oppressive dens of patriarchy" and continue to do so.

[–]CentralAdmin 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whenever the MRAs gather they get the fire alarm pulled on them. People who wanted to view The Red Pill documentary were threatened by angry feminists to such an extent they needed to increase security for the audience.

OP missed the part where women's violence is excused a lot more. There were even popular hashtags on twitter like KillAllMen that would have been treated as hate speech had the genders been swapped.

But the most hypocritical thing women can ask is "why aren't you men doing anything about it?"

They forget that without men's buy-in they would have gotten nothing. No rights. No equal pay. No end to gender roles for women. Take note, men have fewer rights than women in the US and a woman can even rape a minor, get pregnant and be awarded child support that her victim must pay. This is how much more seriously we take women's choices that it can ruin the lives of men and boys. Women also require men to adhere to their gender roles to be seen as attractive while men dare not expect women adhere to any in return.

So it is rich coming from women that men must do more to address the issues when women could weigh in to support them. Women are happy to be in a position of neutral passivity or being on the receiving end of benefits due to progress men enabled them to have. They will not take the initiative even though men need them to because no one will listen to men.

The world cares more about what women have to say now. Women also don't like the idea of men getting together to solve their issues because they fear losing the privilege they have. And since they have the government, media and academia in their corner, women have far more power than they realise. Or they know and just don't care.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it's as black and white as that at all. There's so much more support for men in certain areas e.g. suicide support and loneliness support. Round here all the tool shed type schemes are men only so they can discuss mental health, but there's no tool shed provision for women.

Men get SO much praise in the media. Men get congratulated for looking after their own kids, or not leaving their wife who has cancer, or any other doing the bare minimum type stuff.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

There's so much more support for men in certain areas e.g. suicide support and loneliness support. Round here all the tool shed type schemes are men only so they can discuss mental health

Sure, but that's one of very few provisions just for men, and it's also very regional, not everyone has access to them. They're a great thing, I'm sure, I'd encourage more of that, but I don't think it's nearly as universal as resources for women.

but there's no tool shed provision for women.

But they have women's-only things too. Gender-segregated gym and swimming facilities, women's only groups (Brownies, Guides, Women's Institute, to name a few off the top of my head), women's shelters, and so on.

Men get SO much praise in the media. Men get congratulated for looking after their own kids, or not leaving their wife who has cancer, or any other doing the bare minimum type stuff.

That's not the impression I get as a man. I see news articles decrying the lack of "good men", I see news articles discussing how every man is a threat, how we must "do something" to protect women, I see news articles demanding more support for women...

One example I particularly like to reference is The Guardian, who aren't shy about bashing incels and talking about horrible and dangerous they are. Then, within weeks of a violent incident, they published a glowing, sympathetic article about femcels, about how their loneliness is so tragic, how some of them hadn't had sex in months, how they couldn't find the right man. They even took a few digs at male incels along the way, just to really put the boot in.

Same problem, same loneliness, same psychological detriments, but women get "oh, isn't it sad, men should be better and solve this terrible plight of lonely women" and men get "fuck 'em all, lock 'em up, can't possibly have anything to do with societal effects, they're just evil cunts".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So it seems we are both from the UK. The resources I'm talking about are very commonplace across the UK, obviously I don't know what's going on in your specific area mind.

I think mentioning Guides is a bit of a strange comparison since Scouts exist. And Women's Institute was originally a side along organisation to a labour union which later was about organising women's labour. It's certainly a strong network which benefits women, and I would argue society, but I think the best comparison would be working men's clubs. So those organisations have exist and do exist for men.

How you see it as a man and how I see it as a woman will simply be different I think. We could both trade articles demeaning our own gender or overly criticising the other's. I actually read that article and what I was struck by was how rare it felt for women's loneliness to even be discussed at all, without it being in the context of not sneering at her for not marrying the first man who showed an interest.

I think as well a key difference is the manosphere is NOT a solidarity movement. Enjoy the decline etc. I really think a lot of men need more support, but I think that the sorts of other support networks you're talking about like shelters arose from women's movement which built them. I think a men's movement is needed but that's different to TRP etc. It needs to be about men creating solidarity with one another, rather than a shared ideology of hatred.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think mentioning Guides is a bit of a strange comparison since Scouts exist.

Yeah, except as far as I'm aware, girls can join the Scouts, but boys can't join the Guides. What was wrong with each having their own organisation/group? Why did the boy's version have to become open to both genders? Or, perhaps if I were to phrase that in a more progressive fashion, why didn't the girl's version open to boys?

I actually read that article and what I was struck by was how rare it felt for women's loneliness to even be discussed at all, without it being in the context of not sneering at her for not marrying the first man who showed an interest.

I'll be honest, at this point I'm not sure which I find worse for men; being ignored entirely, or being spoken about all the time but in a negative context.

I don't think either is healthy, but in hindsight I think suffering in silence without people taking a handful of violent, mentally unwell men as a demonstrative example of the rest of us who struggle might've been preferable.

I think a men's movement is needed but that's different to TRP etc. It needs to be about men creating solidarity with one another

But attempts to do that (particularly in the US, which is often where these discussions inevitably end up focussing, I'm not as sure about the UK) seem to either get little traction or, worse, face opposition from feminist organisations asking why we think we need help/resources and why we're taking the focus away from them.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Please tell me which feminist organisations have a problem with men organising in solidarity with each other?

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TRP documentary would be an example. We can't be having people showing solidarity with men, no, not even a fellow feminist, that's just not on, we'll just shout and threaten until it gets cancelled.

[–]Angelio72 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Jordan Peterson got labelled as nazi simply because his audience was mostly male..

[–]Anti_ThingChristpilled 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Perhaps many of those people simply don't talk much about their issues in person. I, for one, prefer not to burden my friends & family too much with talk of how lonely, ashamed, & sexually frustrated I am, so I prefer to talk about it anonymously online.

[–]bloodthirsty_emu 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm the same. While I want to share / vent sometimes and get support from my friends, and they are pretty understanding, I worry / hold back because I fear it's boring or too negative. Plus, in the limited time with friends at my age, I want to enjoy the time too rather than focus only on the shit / non-existent aspect of my life.

[–]DissentientUnplugged 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s easier for women to form social circles and get support. A woman can post about having a bad day on social media and get flooded with support. A man will be told to man up and get over things.

It's kind of true, but mostly applies to interactions with complete strangers. Yes, a woman can post a sob story and get a bunch of updoots on reddit or likes on twitter from people she's never interacted with. I don't think it's particularly valuable or meaningful.

If you become a part of smaller online communities where regulars talk to each other daily, you can be a man, talk about your issues and get support. The internet is a huge place and it's not that hard to find a place that has a few hundred or thousand people like you.

[–]CimZim38F 15 years as FWB 🏆 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

A man will be told to man up and get over things.

If he's constantly posting woe is me stuff and never taking any advice or assistance given to him, yes. Otherwise I've never seen a man on social media have people tell him to "just man up".

Not saying it can't happen, but I've yet to ever see it, whereas I see posts everyday on Facebook from men who are fighting cancer, got divorced, were cheated on, lost their job, have a broken down car, broke up with SO, or had a shit day at work. None of the comments ever say to "man up". They're either neutral "that sucks, sorry man" comments or actual advice and offers to help in some way.

[–]Holden_Frame -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

now do women.

[–]CimZim38F 15 years as FWB 🏆 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Regarding what?

[–]Holden_Frame 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Let's not be obtuse.

If an average woman posts a complaint about literally anything there will be a string of her fellow "Kweens" and simps in her comments practically offering to come over and rub her feet.

A woman can just post "I'm bored" and watch the "Oh no what's wrong?!" posts pour in.

[–]CimZim38F 15 years as FWB 🏆 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If that's what you've seen, then sounds valid. I don't have many female friends, even on Facebook, but weirdly the ones I do have don't tend to post anything but good stuff. I'd thought it was their way of portraying a happier than average life.

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

This gets repeated by red pill a LOT but is it proven that it's easier for women to form social circles and get support? Why is it "less work" for women? Where are the statistics backing this up?

It seems like this is a common viewpoint on reddit when complaining women have it better. A lot of young women ALSO grow up in broken families and have no real goals in life.

A woman can post about having a bad day on social media and get flooded with support.

Not really, that women will get judged for oversharing or attention seeking if her audience is full of mostly acquaintances and not close friends. I judge other women for oversharing and they probably will judge me for oversharing, especially if I just met them and we aren't close.

I don't think it's that different between women and men, and if it is, shouldn't redpillers be proving how much easier women have it instead of just asserting it?

[–]Holden_Frame -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Not really, that women will get judged for oversharing or attention seeking if her audience is full of mostly acquaintances and not close friends.

lmao what??? I've literally never see this. not one time.

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

lol, are you a woman?

do guys think female social groups are judgment free therapy sessions? I love the girlfriends I'm close to sure, but I'm not deluded that our gender's friendships are magical somehow. women are fallible, average human beings and we can be mean, kind, rude, judgy, supportive to each other. and that's fine.

female friendships used to be portrayed as catty and backstabby in pop culture, but now we've gone a full 180 when men on reddit want to complain how easy women have it.

[–]Holden_Frame -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You're barking up the wrong tree.

I was raised by nothing but women, and almost all of my friends are women.

Again, this is written like it was the 1970's. This is the era of body positivity, don't slut shame, boss bitches, girl bosses, girl power, lean in, etc.

Sure, women can be catty and back stab each other, I've seen it many times, but by and large, their nights out and wine sessions are often giant circle jerks of them gassing each other up, and often shitting on whatever men they happened to be pissed at that day.

And for damn sure women gas each other up no social media to seemingly limitless proportions.

You have to basically be Amber Heard to not have an army of women telling you how great you are (and even she still has a sizable portion of women that deify her)

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It is real sweet that you think women are always amazing friends to each other, but that's hardly the case everywhere. Gassing each other up and feminine cultural norms aren't always indicative of "ride or die" friendships. sometimes it's just "how we talk." Straight guys don't always get it.

I hardly want to bring up Amber on PPD, but since you did, I'll bite. Depp has a history of assault, violence, sexism, racism, transphobia, property destruction, drug abuse, lying about charity, and he supported a pedophile grooming his own 15 year old daughter. People not caring about his proven flagrant lies about media hoaxes and fake finger injuries, while nitpicking every detail of Amber's, have some serious double standards they should address.

Seeing how the reddit hivemind reacted to the trial was pretty yikes for me, especially since I actually watched the trial not just the tiktoks. crazy to see redditors being all for "body language analysis" on women's "microexpressions" and not giving a fuck about a rich white guy beats up a crew member, sympathizes with pedos and gives insane interviews about unaddressed anger issues. really shows what kind of crowd this place attracts, but whatever.

[–]Holden_Frame 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Gassing each other up and feminine cultural norms aren't always indicative of "ride or die" friendships. sometimes it's just "how we talk." Straight guys don't always get it.

I was told women "support each other" and that's why their suicide rates are so much lower and why they are happier being single.

Now I'm being told it's all an act and they are actually vicious backstabbers.

Damn. What to believe?

My own eyes and ears, or somebody on reddit telling me it's all a facade.

I hardly want to bring up Amber on PPD, but since you did, I'll bite. Depp has a history of assault, violence, sexism, racism, transphobia ... bla bla bla

Yep. Amber apologist talking points along with meaningless SJW buzzwords like "transphobia" and "grooming"

I guess the whole "imperfect victim" narrative only applies to women.

I guess we're just ignoring Amber's history of violence, abuse, lying, and ... you know ... her actual recorded statements because ... Johnny used incorrect pronouns.

Seeing how the reddit hivemind reacted to the trial was pretty yikes for me, especially since I actually watched the trial not just the tiktoks.

And hearing Amber's own words and recordings way before the trial was pretty "yikes" for me as somebody who has dealt with multiple women like this (one of which put me in the hospital) who thrive on and create drama wherever they can.

I mean, when she's on tape saying "I won't let you leave" and "I can't promise I won't get violent" and somebody is still sitting here trying to contort ways in which she wasn't at least as much of an abuser and manipulator, is really disturbing and shows just how far gone down the "women good men bad" rabbit hole some have gone.

And I'm not somebody who just followed it for the "Celebrity Drama" it was on my radar WAY before the trial was even a possibility

https://www.dougstanhope.com/journal/2016/5/29/words-fail-me

[–]flow3rpowrBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is an oversimplification. Maybe popular women can post about having a bad day and get flooded with support.

[–]InteriorInsights99 35 points36 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ive heard the following hundreds of times…

-‘he doesn’t earn enough so he must be lazy/lacks ambition.’

-‘there’s obviously something wrong with him.’

-‘he’s single because he can’t offer anything/he doesn’t know how to talk to women/he’s bad in bed’ ( it’s always one of these!).

Concerning single women:

-‘she just hasn’t met the right person yet.´

-‘most men are a waste of space/lack money/are poor/lazy/unambitious so she’s obviously having a tough time finding someone.´

When men are single it’s their fault. When women are single it’s because men aren’t good enough!!

[–]JoeRMD77 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

True.

Some 38-year-old woman was on here the other day talking about getting a sperm donor... Like, you couldn't find a good man in all that time? At some point, people gotta' look inwards. The "right" guy's never coming or he would've already.

I'm a 40-year-old man and if I said "I haven't found a good woman yet", people would laugh at me. Especially considering there's a lot of good women just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

[–]DerekMorganBAUMrs. Degree's Side Piece 36 points37 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s how they’re treated…duh

Single women still EASILY have dates and sex so they’re not “really” single a man they can fuck or go out with is a click away

Single men are LONELY. Unless they’re fucking their ex or have flings or whatever (which is infinitely harder for men to get) they don’t have SHIT going on.

It’s a completely different level of isolation so ofc they’ll lash out

Plus they tend to get mocked and ostracized and they want to feel alive and go out with a bang/swinging

Regardless it is what it is that’s what testosterone can do to you

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 18 points19 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Why do people make generalizations and demonize men for the actions of an astronomically small percentage of men? There are nearly 4 billion males in the world. How many of them are involuntarily single men who commit acts of violence? Ironically the demonization of men for the actions of the few is one of the reasons the manosphere has exploded and why so many men are drawn to the alt right.

Do you realize the these men you describe make up like 0.00000001% of men, and are mentally deranged psychopaths? Most "incels" are just normal every day guys with jobs, hobbies, friends ect...This is like me pointing to Casey Anthony or the OF model Courtney Tailor who killed her boyfriend or Amber Turd and asking why do women commit violence.

People like this will ALWAYS exist. The best you can do is report any suspicion of violence to the police. Women could also stop using incel and virgin as catch-all insults against men that disagrees with them, that would help, for starters. Can't claim to care about mental health and then shame men for lack of sexual experience. Pick one.

In my time on reddit I also find the notion that involuntarily single women blame themselves for being single to be pretty silly.

[–]cromulent_weasel 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you realize the these men you describe make up like 0.00000001% of men, and are mentally deranged psychopaths?

I think the numbers are much higher than that. If you have a traumatic childhood, a Y chromosome and the MA08 gene, then you're quite likely to be violently anti-social. Roughly 5% of men meet that criteria. It's not 'all men' but it's way more than '0.00000001% of men' too.

So 95% of men are unfairly demonised because people can't tell just by looking at us that we're not one of the bad eggs.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My number is more of a jest, the point is to illustrate that the men that OP is describing make up a very, very small percentage of men. A predisposition to antisocial personality disorder, and actually developing into a mentally disturbed individual that commits acts of mass violence, are two entirely different things.

And anyway, clinically, psychopathy is considered to be a severe form of antisocial personality disorder. A certain percentage of men having antisocial personality disorder isn't some gotcha.

Most of the sources i'm seeing put the estimate of male psychopathy at about ~1% in the US. this source says 1.2% Of that 1.2%, not all are necessarily violent. Some psychopaths are able to integrate into society and follow the law for logical reasons (to avoid consequences)

Once again. This narrative people keep pushing to demonize all men for the actions of a very small number, is radicalizing young men and pushing them towards the alt right.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

In my time on reddit I also find the notion that involuntarily single women blame themselves for being single to be pretty silly.

Well, that can't be right, I mean I've never...

Where have all the good men gone?

Ah. Right. Yes. Carry on.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not entirely sure what you're saying but generally the women that can't get the men they want to commit to them are pretty often bitter, entitled, and misandrist, opting to blame men instead of doing self reflection. That's basically why spaces like fds exist.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I was just trying to be funny. The point I was making was (in agreement with your closing sentence) that there certainly are women who are unhappy and/or bitter and blame it on men "not being good enough".

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to sound like platitudes, but feminism and sexual emancipation are used as arguments to normalize hook up culture. Of course, acting out one's sexual desires is the right thing to do, but for a large proportion of people who are not socialized and liberalized like a Western European, it is difficult to adapt. I am a Turkish woman born in Europe. I feel lost. One has become disposable. People are constantly judged by unrealistic ideals of beauty from social media. Massive porn use dulls, normal things no longer stimulate. And honestly, the men on platforms the self-declared feminists are the very ones who seek open relationships, hook ups, or F+ and think that's the premise of being a tolerant and open person. I live in Germany and it seems like everyone is looking for something casual, you're labeled as bourgeois if you don't want it. But as a less social person, how am I supposed to get to know men?

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (52 children) | Copy Link

I think we need to bring up the internet in this topic.

The radicalization of boys and men online is not just a rumor. It’s real, it happens. The secret service now profiles people who self identify as incels and commit violent crimes. They’ve released a document which is now available online.

https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2022/03/secret-services-latest-research-highlights-mass-violence-motived-misogyny

Edit: The onus of addressing the serious rise of incel violence is not on the backs of young women trying to figure out their own lives. It is an issue that needs to be addressed by law enforcement, mental health professionals, and the judicial system.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 28 points29 points  (43 children) | Copy Link

serious rise of incel violence

The hyperbole is off the charts. More people get gunned down in Chicago alone in one weekend than by every incel killer combined.

[–]KekeSmall 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even if you want to go down that route, it’s the MALES in Chicago that’s giving it that unsavory reputation, not the females.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well that just sounds like Chicago ought to do something about that.

A murder is too much. Jake Davison murdered five people, with a gun, in an area with very little gun violence. That is a material increase of murder.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 18 points19 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying murder is good. But incels are not a national emergency, and treating every guy who's sad and alone like he's the next Elliot Rodger isn't helping anyone.

[–]UrbantexasguyChad's better looking older brother 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, and on top of that, the homicide rate in the U.S, is well below what it as in the 90's, and the overall violent crime rate is way down. It last peaked around 1993 or so....

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/myths-and-realities-understanding-recent-trends-violent-crime

[–]JalenHurtsMVP2022 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No one cares till white people in nice areas get effected. Those people in the nice areas actually vote which is the only reason politicians care enough to appease these people. They could give less or a fuck about inner cities because they get nothing out of it at all. Same how the “opiod crisis” only became a thing when rich whites started to OD. Funny how the rhetoric changes when certain groups are effected

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

In April 1999, just 23 years ago the US was shocked by the Columbine High School massacre. It was considered a new type of violence, something American society hadn’t really seen before.

Since then, more than 320,000 students have experienced gun violence at school.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/local/school-shootings-database/

Right now, more than 53 people have died and hundreds have been injured related to the rise of incel violence.

https://www.mccaininstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/incel-and-misogynist-violent-extremism-read-ahead-materials-august-2.pdf

It’s dangerous to dismiss it as hyperbole information.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

First of all don't conflate all mass shootings with incels. But even counting all mass shootings, it pales in comparison to the violence nobody pays any attention to in the inner city. There's like ~11,000 fatal shootings every year. Incel violence is completely dwarfed by every other kind.

Way more women get killed by the abusive dirtbags they date than the sad virgins they don't.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Spot on. One of the biggest social myths out there.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

u/tired_hillbilly I never conflated all mass shootings with incel violence. Please point to the part of my post where I did that.

I have also not discussed the violence in inner city Chicago. My post are in response to OP’s post, which isn’t discussing inner city violence….does that make sense? Apologies for the confusion.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You replied to me, not the OP. Sorry if that was just a misunderstanding.

But you're the one who brought up Columbine and school shootings.

In April 1999, just 23 years ago the US was shocked by the Columbine High School massacre. It was considered a new type of violence, something American society hadn’t really seen before.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I’m not conflating all mass shootings with incel violence any more than your post conflates inner city violence in Chicago with incel violence on the basis of scale.

I’m citing that incel violence is a new type of violence in the same vein as high school shootings were merely 23 years ago…and as high school violence has steadily risen, we need to seriously look at the rise of incel violence as well.

If the secret service considers it dire enough to profile and track, it’s pretty serious.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Except school shootings weren't new at Columbine. There was a shooting at a school in Olean NY, 3 dead, 11 hurt in 1974.

If you wanna include colleges, Charles Whitman shot 47 people at the University of Texas in 1966.

If the secret service considers it dire enough to profile and track, it’s pretty serious.

This is an argument from authority. Do you really believe the government is infallible? That they can't have screwed up priorities?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok.

[–]localmicrodosechamp -3 points-2 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

that cannot possibly be true.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 9 points10 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

As of September, 448 people had been murdered in Chicago in 2022. Whereas how many of incels killed? Adding up the list on wikipedia on the "incel" page, I get 40 since 2009. So while it may not be the case that every weekend is that bad in Chicago, the point remains. 13 years of incel killings in the entire world don't even equal 10% of the killings in Chicago alone in just 9 months. Incels are not a national emergency.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 5 points6 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

I believe the "official" count worldwide is something like 45 (or 60, some will say, but that includes two incidents which were deemed by authorities to not be motivated by incel ideology). But your point stands.

I said something similar in another comment about more people being killed by toasters, which was a total stab in the dark, but true: turned out 300 people per year die from toasters in the US alone. Not a million miles away from your choice of statistic, in terms of raw numbers.

[–]localmicrodosechamp -2 points-1 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

how does it stand if 45 people aren't murdered in chicago every weekend?

he just lied and you fell for it.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 1 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

As opposed to the claim above that it's some kind of immediate international terrorism crisis? Pretty sure he's closer.

Still considerably wide of the claim that it's more murders in a weekend in Chicago, that I'll admit, but still a chasm of a difference between 45 deaths in 13 years worldwide versus 448 in one year in one city.

[–]localmicrodosechamp 1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

yeah i mean the point of terrorism is that it terrifies the populace.

gangs aren't driving their car into a crowd shouting "death to stacey".

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 2 points3 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Neither did any of the recorded killers in these situations, as far as I'm aware.

[–]localmicrodosechamp 0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

what?

are you just denying facts now or are you uniformed yet loud?

[–]localmicrodosechamp 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

so you were wrong.

[–]flow3rpowrBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ummm this doesn't disprove anything tho?

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It disproves the idea that incels are some great scourge plaguing the nation and the world. Nobody pays attention to the constant bloodbath that is Chicago, but the handful of deaths over +10 years is an emergency? Chicago's not even the only city like that. Atlanta is just as bad. So is Detroit.

I'm not saying any murders are acceptable, but the ones getting all the social attention are a drop in the bucket. And what's more, a lot of the attention seems tailor made to exacerbate the problem. If you're sad and alone, are you going to feel good about people comparing you to Elliot Rodger? Or is it just going to make you feel even worse?

[–]localmicrodosechamp -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

because gang violence is usually mutual to some degree and a guy running his van into a crowd yelling "death to chad and stacey" is targeting civilians.

thats almost the point of terrorism.

[–]Green-Quantity10321 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I loled

[–]localmicrodosechamp -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It is extremely serious.

Most mass shooters can be traced back to the online male supremacy movement.

[–]hopeidontforget2021 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dude what? Majority of mass shootings are gang related. Like 90%+..

[–]localmicrodosechamp 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

the ones not shooting at other gangs but unarmed civilians are men who have been radicalized by the male supremacy movement.

[–]Angelio72 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A big part why idiots like Andrew Tate have become so popular is because of white toxic feminism aswel. Why dont you see this in south america ? Because the left wing women there haven't embraced toxic feminism to as many western left wing women has done.

If you ask me a typical swedish feminist from my generation I would say Zara Larson , she tweets about toxic masculinity 3 Smirnoff ice later she hangs around gang members . That kind of behaviours is not every western feminist but it's still a big procent and ofc that will create a ripple effect.

How many big white feminist do you see talk about beuty standards but if you would bring up that here last 3 boyfriend has been big black men she calls you an incel. This non rational thinking have created a breeding ground for non logical thinkers on the male side like that moron Andrew Tate

[–]Purple317 30 points31 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

OP, I think you really hit the nail on the head with this part:

The hatred that single men may embody for themselves and the world around them is now an issue women have been asked to consider.

There is something I’ve noticed on this sub that sort of ties in with this. The men on here (not all of them) who seem to harbor the most disdain / vitriol for women in general are also the same men who expect higher levels of empathy and cooperation from women as a whole. They will go on and on about how women are shallow, vain, illogical, etc…and then get angry when women don’t respond with the endless compassion or understanding they feel they are owed.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Societally, it's logical that crime would increase in a society when there are large amounts of young, disenfranchised men. Just by virtue of people feeling like they have nothing to lose and feeling like society doesn't care about them. Those disenfranchised men may not necessarily even struggle with women.

That's something different than the acts of mass violence from incels OP seems to be alluding to.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

also the same men who expect higher levels of empathy and cooperation from women as a whole

Well, yeah, that's logical, isn't it? Someone who feels they've been exposed to insanity-inducing amounts of loneliness, disrespect, abuse, ignorance, invalidation, and pain, who is emotionally unhinged as a result, wants someone to actually finally listen? That's exactly the sort of person who's going to be crying out to be heard and understood.

Do you think they like feeling that way? That they like being so cripplingly isolated and distrusted that it causes them to be so angry? No, it sucks, it's soul-sucking, it's draining, it hurts, they'd much rather just be happy and normal like everybody else, but get told they "don't deserve it", that they're "not entitled", that nobody's obligated to feel anything for them, that their problems aren't real, or that it's their fault, that "if they weren't so unpleasant they'd have a girlfriend".

You'd be pretty pissed off too, if that was the response to your cries for help.

[–]Purple317 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you misunderstood what I meant (I probably didn’t articulate myself well enough.)

It’s not simply lonely men wanting their struggles to be heard / validated. It’s perfectly understandable to want this.

I’m specifically talking about a sub-set of lonely men who simultaneously dislike women, but also tend to expect unwavering empathy and support from them. And then they get more angry when the women they’ve called whores / bitches don’t provide nurturing or emotional support or validate them in some way.

Or they expect women as a whole to change their goals / preferences for the good of society, without expecting men to do this. Think about the whole Chad / Stacy / Becky narrative. Now I don’t believe any of this, but according to the narrative, Chad can get Stacy with a modicum of effort. But Stacy will expect effort and commitment, so sometimes it’s easier to go after Becky. And this in turn “ruins” Becky for the normal guys who are actually in her league, because now Becky thinks she deserves a Chad. These guys spew a lot of vitriol for Becky who won’t date her “looksmatch,” but they don’t harbor any ill will toward Chad at all. Chad’s just doing what Chad’s gonna do. They want Becky to change her preferences but none of these guys are angry at Chad for not going after his “looksmatch” of Stacy and upsetting the dating market.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But you've made the fatal mistake of ignoring how they got there.

They weren't just born hating "Stacy and Chad". They formed that opinion and worldview based on what they saw, how they felt, how they were treated. They became bitter, they weren't intrinsically hateful.

Take the women on here, right? Very often there are stories of how User X was leered at by an old man as a child, User Y got fondled by a guy on the bus, User Z got... well, you get the idea. Many of these women take these stories and use them to justify their hatred and disrespect for men.

Now, do I blame them for being upset about how they felt treated? Do I think they're wrong for having negative and angry thoughts about the unpleasantness they were subjected to? No. I would expect those things to feel pretty nasty, if it's true that they grew up with endless lists of experiences of harassment and sexual predation. Of course I'd expect them to be wary, to be defensive, to have formed coping mechanisms.

I don't think it's OK to act out like that, for either gender, but I understand how it can come to be, and I get that when people grow up experiencing terrible things, abuse, neglect, assault, it has lasting impacts on them.

That's what many of these men experience. No, it doesn't justify violence, but it's absolutely crucial to understanding how to resolve and prevent this. When people keep tossing them aside, isolating them, making them feel worthless, making them feel like a burden, or intrusive, or disgusting, or creepy, that adds up. They have nobody to talk to, they have nobody to trust, they have nobody to love or feel loved by. So they bottle it up. Eventually the bottle explodes. That didn't have to happen. If somebody had paid them some attention and helped them through the loneliness, they wouldn't have exploded, they wouldn't have become what you all fear.

[–]RealAmericanWeasel 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know. I’m a guy but when someone is upset, I feel bad for them. Usually people aren’t angry for no reason. Often, it isn’t their fault either. Whomever they’re lashing out against doesn’t make a difference to me (even if it’s me), I just feel bad that they’ve had bad breaks in life.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

are also the same men who expect higher levels of empathy and cooperation from women as a whole. They will go on and on about how women are shallow, vain, illogical, etc…and then get angry when women don’t respond with the endless compassion or understanding they feel they are owed.

It's a form of gaslighting, but in this format it just looks illogical.

[–]draiki13 7 points8 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

We don't take care of each other only on a personal level but also on a societal level.

If there's any danger, I'm expected to sacrifice myself. At the very least I'm expected to pay for social services that disproportionately benefit reckless women.

Would be nice if women carry some societal responsiblity as well. Not only for my personal gain but theirs as well.

For one personalities like Andrew Tate probably wouldn't be as popular, if there weren't hordes of lonely men.

[–]Purple317 14 points15 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

At the very least I'm expected to pay for social services that disproportionately benefit reckless women.

To me, this is a bizarre talking point. I’m a woman who has never been on welfare. (Unless you count the 2 months of unemployment I collected for the first time in my life after being laid off this summer.) As a W2 wage earner I’m paying for those social services as well. And I’ve always worked full-time to support my family. But I have zero bitterness towards other women (or men) who need assistance. Some may need help because of their own poor choices and some may need help because of circumstances they couldn’t have foreseen. Regardless, I don’t feel they “owe” me anything. I just feel gratitude that I’m not in their position.

Would be nice if women carry some societal responsiblity as well. Not only for my personal gain but theirs as well.

Most modern women work outside the home and do the majority of the childcare / household tasks. What societal responsibilities are lacking? What additional responsibilities do you think we need to take on?

For one personalities like Andrew Tate probably wouldn't be as popular, if there weren't hordes of lonely men.

Andrew Tate is a grifter selling an image. And I think his popularity is proof that it’s not loneliness per se that is making men angry. If all y’all really want is a good woman to pair up with, why is a known womanizer your idol? Why not look up to someone who has been happily married for decades?

[–]middleoftheroad133 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for this. There’s this very prevalent idea among the men here that they have responsibilities but women have none . It’s the basis of a lot of resentment but I can’t seem to figure out where it comes from. Vast majority of adult women work, pay taxes, and take care of children. What are we not being responsible for exactly?

[–]groovygirl858 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great response. I completely agree.

Just wanted to second that it is a bizarre talking point. It's the same as people complaining that their taxes go towards schools or roads even when they don't have children or drive vehicles. I get a little voter guide in my mailbox every election that states in fine print on the bottom how much taxpayer money was spent to print it. Do all the people who aren't registered to vote in my state have a valid complaint that their taxes paid for that even though they aren't going to use it? It's just a ridiculous take.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Nothing he said is inaccurate. Women are not required to register for the draft and put their lives on the line for their country if necessary like ukranian men have been forced to do.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

And men don’t have to risk their lives in childbirth, so what’s the point? No one should be forced to fight in a war, an issue the feminist anti war movement actually fights for

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

And men don’t have to risk their lives in childbirth, so what’s the point?

That's a biological function, not a societal requirement.

And I agree that nobody should be forced to fight in war, but really, the only time feminism even mentions the draft is when people call them out on this double standard. They don't actually care all that much about men unilaterally having to register for the draft, if at all. It's a virtue signal.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Society literally ceases to exist if their is no childbirth and women are forced to birth children everyday because in most part of this world they have no choice over their reproduction.

And secondly you should learn about the first and second feminist wave that both were very heavily entangled with the First World War anti war movement and the anti war movement to against the war in Vietnam.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

And secondly you should learn about the first and second feminist wave that both were very heavily entangled with the First World War anti war movement and the anti war movement to against the war in Vietnam.

What feminism was intended to be and what modern day feminism is, are two very, very different things. Modern day feminism is a female superiority movement. First wave feminism is not representative of what feminism has become.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

You understand that there is no such thing as a general feminism? there is various different theories in feminism. There is socialist feminism, radical feminism, queer feminism, liberal feminism and so on. What you think modern feminism is, is nothing but a bastardised version of most feminist theories of liberation. It’s one that was watered down completely in order to serve capitalist interest. If you would understand what feminism is really about you would love the version that you call “modern feminism” haha

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They are all elitist to varying degrees, some more than others. Liberal feminism being the worst of the bunch.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Andrew Tate is a grifter selling an image. And I think his popularity is proof that it’s not loneliness per se that is making men angry. If all y’all really want is a good woman to pair up with, why is a known womanizer your idol? Why not look up to someone who has been happily married for decades?

Because men like that know what these lonely men hear, they know what they're told, what they feel, they acknowledge that, they claim to understand it, and they offer (what appear to be) solutions.

What's that married man going to say?

"Oh, it's OK son, you'll get there, just keep smiling, do right by women, they'll come around".

Because it worked for him, and he has no idea how these disenfranchised lonely men suffer. He can't relate. He can't offer them anything because he has what he wanted and it was likely easier for him. If he's been married for decades, he's from an era that no longer exists.

[–]HolyPenguine -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

  1. If the comparison is men vs women, you can't just choose it to be men vs you. The relevant analysis is at the group level.
  2. The reason you're happy to give up some money is because it affects you less. For men, the money he earns is part of his identity and status.
  3. The equivalent would be for society to tax women to pay for prostitutes. That would be using your own money to reduce your status. If that happened you'd feel it.

[–]flow3rpowrBlue Pill Woman 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Imagine being mad about welfare assistance towards people who need it. Wtf...

[–]draiki13 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're misinterpreting me.

I'm mad precisely because of that. Pleads for help from lonely men are being dismissed after society has disarmed them. Especially in favor of women.

With this I'm not saying we should go back. Merely that women should make a step towards these men.

Because you see, it's very difficult to feel loneliness while simultaneously paying for welfare of women who cannot make it on their own.

There would be much less of that, if the women actually addressed this.

[–]_revelationary 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the truest thing I’ve read here in weeks. They’re the same people. I’ve had interactions with at least 3 of them in the past couple weeks.

[–]Angelio72 -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think this huge rise of toxic white feminism we have seen the last 15 years played a huge part in this anger . Why dont you see alot of this anger at women in south America? Its because the dating market are more traditional so way less sexless men but it's also because the left wing women there haven't embraced this idiotic kind of toxic feminism .

[–]sinistralia 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

South American countries have a ton of femicide, so I would argue that 1. you’re wrong about Latin American men not hating women, and 2. feminism in Latin America should be far more aggressive, socially and physically.

[–]Anykindofland 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why are involuntarily single women not expressing the same violent behaviors, especially when they have much more to lose, much more quickly than the single man?

Because they are not truly single. Their standards are just so insanely high that nothing can satisfy them. They could easily find someone if they left their ivory towers for a single moment.

I don't know why people even try to compare single women to single men since their whole situation is so vastly different. The burden of performance lies solely on the shoulders of men. They have to be handsome, tall, funny, charming and everything in between while women have to be there. Women even acknowledge this yet clearly state that they will not move from this passive position of power.

That wouldn't even be the problem if men didn't face a huge backlash for simply trying. They are forced to shoot their shot and get called creepy for it. They are the ones who have to initiate everything and get ridiculed when they fail (How often have you seen the “Thats a lot of words to say you never touched a women” line during an argument even if sex was a completely unrelated topic?). They are the ones who face constant rejection for stuff like being to small yet have to accept that not being attracted to obese women is a hate crime.

[–][deleted]  (21 children) | Copy Link

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[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. Healthy single men and healthy single women live the same lives. The only difference is women that don’t want to be used solely for sex are not shooting up barbershops because someone rejected them.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The social safety nets that exist for women are more extensive.

Society does not care about men to anywhere near the same extent.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I do think that a flaw of the circumstances women used to be in. Women couldn’t have a bank account in their own names in all states until 1974. Child support was started in 1950 specifically Becky’s the government did not want to pay for women in need. It was started as a means to cut government funding for single women.

[–]cromulent_weasel 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do think that a flaw of the circumstances women used to be in.

I actually think that this idea of a support network predates patriarchy and in fact all of human society. The reason why humans don't have the same social structures as chimpanzees (where the biggest strongest chimp beats everyone up and gets his way) is because our society is fundamentally a coalition of the weak. We use social grouping to criminalise the people who would be the equivalent of the chimp leader - those guys go to jail for a long time. Either that or they become CEOs.

[–][deleted]  (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 8 points9 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

No men are told that can’t get a woman IF they are broken and creepy. That’s different.

[–][deleted]  (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

No. I think people internalize it that way. But really its not saying that you’re creepy, it’s saying that you’re acting creepy. It may be nerves, social awkwardness, what have you. But you aren’t automatically a creep.

[–]Codoro1 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

And yet most women won't date you if you haven't successfully dated already past a certain age. I see where you are coming from, but you're just wrong.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you advertising that instantly? As someone that’s never had a serious LTR, I did used to worry about it before I realized that no one really asked. And if they do ask, I just tell the truth “I haven’t met anyone I wanted to have something long term with”.

I’m not sure why your inexperience would hinder you unless you are leading with it.

[–]Codoro1 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not leading with that or even bring it up, but when you live in a small area word gets around

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Dating in a small town has its own problems. That’s a situation in which the only recourse is to LEAVE as soon as you are able.

If you are there taking care of family, you need to figure out if you are in a place where you can set aside your own happiness and do that duty for a while.

If you’re just there because you can’t move yet, it will happen soon. And I get that being in a small town is hard, but it also means you’re most likely in an area where people are more homogenous. Get out of there as soon as possible.

[–]PlebbitBot9000Idiot 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The only difference is women that don’t want to be used solely for sex are not shooting up barbershops because someone rejected them

The problem is that most single (or incel) men don't do this either.

Your overall attitude issue is that you allow the actions of a few deranged individuals to generalize to everyone in that group.

It's not clear to me how shootings are even relevant to this discussion.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It is an issue though. The discussion in the media has turned to single men being unhappily single and why it’s a danger to society.

[–]PlebbitBot9000Idiot -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not following. The fact that media blames mass shootings (an astronomically rare event btw) on a group as large as single men (about 30% of the US population is single) is irrelevant.

[–]flow3rpowrBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Citation needed.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 12 points13 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

Let’s look at “involuntarily” single women:

Will be alone at the end of their life.

Only if she refused to settle for the men that are interested in her.

Possibly financially unstable.

That goes for most single people.

Still able to have sex, not able to get commitment.

Correct.

may blame themselves for their situation.

Or patriarchy.

May convince others to not seek relationships with such urgency

Ok. Nothing wrong.

Now for involuntary single men:

Angry and volatile at their situation.

Of course. It makes sense.

May contribute to hostile movements either online or in person.

If a society does not consider your needs enough to provide for them then it makes sense to consider it an enemy.

Blames others for their situation and feels like they are in a loosing battle.

Results speak for themselves.

General worry that these men need to get into relationships before they reach the end of their ropes.

Correct.

Why is it that single men seem to treat being single as a justification for violence?

Because violence is the default state. I need to be convinced not to be violent. My non violence comes as a price. I know I can do damage. That social contract is that I will cause no trouble even if I could and in exchange I get a fair chance and opportunity to be happy. That includes sex.

Even here, it’s often said that “unwanted men will eventually say they’ve had enough”. There is a threat that’s hanging over the heads of women and wanted men, that doesn’t happen when the discussion is focused on single women.

Because women suck at violence.

The hatred that single men may embody for themselves and the world around them is now an issue women have been asked to consider.

Fair. Consider that then.

Single men have weaponized their relationship status: made it a movement and a battle cry: so I ask, what can be done?

Create an artificial replacement for women. One that has no free will and no rights. One that can be sold/rented. That way men can work and get their needs met in return without bothering women.

One of the main issues I see is men discussing not having access to the women they want. The women they want are used up. The women they want don’t want them.

Honestly, what can we even do to fix that?

See above.

Why are involuntarily single women not expressing the same violent behaviors, especially when they have much more to lose, much more quickly than the single man?

Because if women decided to change things through violence they would lose. They don't need to do violence. They can convince men to change things for them.

There are invisible women out here that halve never been given attention. Some have never even had someone only want them for access to sex. Their chance at motherhood and family has passed them, or will soon pass them by, and they are sad, depressed, despondent even, but not livid.

Because they suck at violence.

Whats going wrong here?

Men are using the one last and only tool. Violence, force. The first authority from which every other authority derives from.

[–]teball3People are people pilled 7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

He's WAY out of line, but he's mostly right. I only really disagree with you on 2 major points:

Because violence is the default state. I need to be convinced not to be violent. My non violence comes as a price. I know I can do damage. That social contract is that I will cause no trouble even if I could and in exchange I get a fair chance and opportunity to be happy. That includes sex.

And who defined happiness that way? That is a subjective question, but it does not mean it came from you, it is an intersubjective question. An opinion formed in the context of the society you came from. Change this answer, and the need to see society as an enemy changes with it. That is also another answer to the question "What can be done?" And the second point:

If a society does not consider your needs enough to provide for them then it makes sense to consider it an enemy.

You said "needs", but you meant "wants". Nobody needs sex, no amount of shitty evolutionary science, or appeals to emotion can change that.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

And who defined happiness that way?

Men want comfort and a goal worth striving for. Meaning if you feel poetic.

Since most people are not going to get those from their jobs because most jobs are shit and need to be done men get comfort from sex and a goal worth striving for in having a family.

That is the most meaning most men on earth can realistically get from life. And women are the gatekeepers.

An opinion formed in the context of the society you came from. Change this answer, and the need to see society as an enemy changes with it.

See above it.

That is also another answer to the question "What can be done?" And the second point:

You said "needs", but you meant "wants". Nobody needs sex, no amount of shitty evolutionary science, or appeals to emotion can change that.

You need something as a tool to get a goal.

I need air and food to live.

I need sex and relationships to be happy.

Or to put in another way. I need sex and relationships to be convinced that society is not my enemy and I shouldn't treat it as such.

[–]ppdbanker 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Wow, I'd never literally seen with my own eyes that men quite literally feel entitled to women. Like when was that promise made and by which society? Are men being promised women on birth certificates now, that there's a legitimate breach of contract to retaliate against society for when they don't or can't get one?

[–]Barely-moral1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

There is no promise. There is no contract. There is no entitlement.

There is no promise that I will get sex and relationships. There is no promise that I will not use my ability to cause troubles.

There is no contract that forces society to give me what I want. There is no contract that forces me to give society what it wants.

I am not entitled to sex and relationships. Society is not entitled to my peaceful behavior.

[–]teball3People are people pilled 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

men get comfort from sex and a goal worth striving for in having a family.

This is only 1 path of many, friend. Why hinge your entire outlook on it? In a world of infinite possibilities, why do you refuse to see any others? It is alright to pursue this, but you are the one choosing to see it as the only way, and that is just ignorant.

I need air and food to live.

You do. You cannot change this.

I need sex and relationships to be happy.

Only for as long as you pin you happiness there. You are free to stop at any time, so it is not a need. Men have done it before, There are many such cases.

I need sex and relationships to be convinced that society is not my enemy and I shouldn't treat it as such.

You want sex and relationships to be convinced that society is not your enemy.

The funny part? I don't even disagree that you should treat society as your enemy, but only because society has placed the false idea of needing sex and relationships in your head, not because that is actually true.

[–]groovygirl858 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Because violence is the default state. I need to be convinced not to be violent. My non violence comes as a price. I know I can do damage. That social contract is that I will cause no trouble even if I could and in exchange I get a fair chance and opportunity to be happy. That includes sex.

I'm being sincere here when I say: you need mental health services.

You should not have to be convinced to be nonviolent. It shouldn't be the default state.

There are countless sex toys. Use them. If sex toys aren't enough, chemical castration is an option. Chemical castration is used for violent sexual offenders already; It should also be used for those who wish to commit violence against society for lack of sex.

Sex is not an entitlement. A romantic relationship is not an entitlement. No one is guaranteed either and they shouldn't be guaranteed.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm being sincere here when I say: you need mental health services.

Been there. Done that. It worked. I am under control.

You should not have to be convinced to be nonviolent. It shouldn't be the default state.

But I do need to be convinced and violence is the default state. So I build my life around that.

There are countless sex toys. Use them. If sex toys aren't enough, chemical castration is an option. Chemical castration is used for violent sexual offenders already; It should also be used for those who wish to commit violence against society for lack of sex.

No need. Easier to find someone that wants what I can provide and make a trade in which I get what I want.

Sex is not an entitlement. A romantic relationship is not an entitlement.

I agree. I am not entitled to those. I need to bring something to the table. And I do bring something to the table to get it. The first thing I bring is my restraint. I could be violent, or i couldn't. From then it is a negotiation.

No one is guaranteed either and they shouldn't be guaranteed.

It is not and it will never be guaranteed. At least until we create a replacement for women with no rights and no free will.

As a counter argument, my state of non violence is not guaranteed whether it should be or not. It is up for negotiation. As long as I get what I want, and I am getting what I want, society will get what it wants from me. I will not be violent.

[–]groovygirl858 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Your therapy didn't "work" if violence is your default state.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Results say otherwise

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Jesus Christ dude. But here’s the thing, it’s not like modern modes of war are gender specific. All things considered anyone can pull a trigger.

You think these men will be happy with substitutes that have no free will?

And I disagree, women are pretty good at violence. We just tend to do it in a way that doesn’t cause bloodshed.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Jesus Christ dude. But here’s the thing, it’s not like modern modes of war are gender specific. All things considered anyone can pull a trigger.

Since anyone can use a firearm the difference is made in the biology of the ones using it.

You think these men will be happy with substitutes that have no free will?

Yes. If the replacement is good, the fact that it doesn't have free will will be a positive instead of a negative.

And I disagree, women are pretty good at violence. We just tend to do it in a way that doesn’t cause bloodshed.

That is like saying that you are really good at athletism but do it in a way that does not involve moving fast.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Oh nah. There’s a reason poison is called a “woman’s weapon”. I think women are very targeted in their violence and will use other methods to make up for their lack of Phyllis strength.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Use of poison is not violence. It is deception.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. If the intention is to hurt its violence. What other modes of hurting someone are not violent?

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Manipulation. Social ostracization. Isolation. Gaslighting. Deliberate use of mental illness/vulnerability to induce self harm.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean physically hurting someone. Not hurting feelings or emotionally hurting. Though I do think that mental manipulation can also be violent.

I also think that women tend to be more focused in their anger. They don’t need to hurt everyone around them, just the one person that caused their pain or issues.

Most men are not “good at violence” per se, they are just good at not caring who they hurt.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men are focused in their anger. If they weren't society would collapse.

And the ability to not care about who gets hurt is a requisite to fully unleash your potential to do harm.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, men are not wild animals. Men do not need to focus on their anger. They can rationalize it in a healthy way. The violence of old is unneeded in todays society. War would decimate the planet at this rate.

[–]delight-n-angers 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Since anyone can use a firearm the difference is made in the biology of the ones using it.

How exactly does my vagina change my ability to operate a firearm? Cite your sources.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

When the army fills their ranks with women in the front lines due to their proven efficacy that is equal to men I will believe technology made both women and men equal in the realms of violence.

[–]delight-n-angers -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you don't actually have anything to back up this argument? Got it.

[–]Own_Wall_4233 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The ability to use a firearm and the willingness to use a firearm are two very different things.

[–]delight-n-angers -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say anything about willingness. I'm more than willing (and professionally trained on a variety of firearms and calibers). I asked how my vagina impacted my *ability*.

[–]Noodles_R 7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Men tend to turn emotions outward, like anger. Women tend to turn emotions inward, like sadness.

Not always, but it’s generally how genders divide. Is it such a leap to then see that men externalise their issues and push them out onto others, while women internalise theirs?

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So then is the issue womens choices and pickiness or is it men’s inability to control their anger at a certain point?

[–]Noodles_R 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Men who act on it. You can never excuse violence towards others for this issue, in my opinion. It is completely illogical, and to be honest very childish, to start hurting people because you don’t get what you want.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I just don’t think there is a solution to this problem. Even if government mandated relationships, men would still not get women they want.

[–]Noodles_R 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, and we can’t mandate relationships. We cannot force people to live in a way they don’t want by dating someone they don’t want. So the only solution is for people to learn adult ways to deal with being alone or not getting who they want.

[–]groovygirl858 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the solution is mental health services and medication.

[–]KekeSmall 9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Simple. Single women =something wrong with me/not chosen Single men= something wrong with women for not picking me. I could be wrong but has there been a female Elliot Rodgers,Tres Genco, Scott Beierle?? When men are frustrated and angry with the world justified or not they’re more likely to take out that frustration outwards.

[–]WideAwake550 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lipstickalley which is full of single women bitches and complains about men's supposedly unfair standards on women all the time though.

And tons of single men on Reddit and other places are extremely self-depreciating.

Your post lacks nuance.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But has any of them ever gone on a killing spree?

[–]WideAwake550 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Her exact words.

Single women =something wrong with me/not chosen Single men= something wrong with women for not picking me.

She never said a single thing about killing sprees. She talked about how single women apparently never blame men for their dating woes and how single men always do.

Men of every single background are more likely to kill than women so that's a moot point.

[–]etherael 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

that doesn’t happen when the discussion is focused on single women.

Because the state applies violence on their behalf. A state doing the same on behalf of incels would probably result in incels not being viewed as the threat they may otherwise be viewed as either. But that only sorta happens in the Netherlands. The Dutch don't seem to have many incels.

Also I remember a story from I think it was Palestine, when the PLO wanted to take a radical out of the picture on their side reliably after peace deals, the way to do it that worked the best would be to fix him up with a wife and family, at which point he'd be perfectly happy to put down the sword and live a peaceful life. Maybe this is just the way the world goes and will always go at scale, from the Sabine women in Rome to modern day. Otherwise unremarkable violent men that have nothing else going for them will eventually resort to violence if the problem is big enough in scale.

Also in countries where women must provide for themselves or have a husband to provide for them and no state provided welfare is available, inceldom is once again enormously reduced in prevalence.

Disclaimer; the above is not to be taken to excuse violence by individuals or indeed even states which ideally I don't think should exist at all, it's just an observation on the way things are.

Single men have weaponized their relationship status: made it a movement and a battle cry: so I ask, what can be done?

Probably some combination of economic adjustment making stable provider types more appealing, states subsidising what men get out of romantic relationships the same way what women get out of relationships is subsidised, and men getting over it and just dealing with the reality of their situation.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I have rarely have read more bullshit than this

[–]etherael -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have rarely read a more content free statement than this.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Really I mean you just wrote one

[–]etherael 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, the original post was filled with content. You may disagree with that content, you may not understand that content, whatever, but simply responding "bullshit" to a large amount of statements without further context is itself necessarily content free. You're not actually making any kind of specific objection, you're just pounding your fist on the table and saying reee.

Do i know if you thought the claim states use violence on behalf of women to extract what men frequently provide in relationships was the problem? No. I can infer from context it might be because this is typically the sort of thing that makes clueless NPCs that find thinking painful throw a tantrum, but that's just an educated guess, you may have been objecting to the claim that blocs of men employing violence to secure access to women historically was fairly well precedented, you may have been objecting to the claim that the Netherlands subsidises sexual access, or that in countries without state welfare inceldom is less prevalent, or even the claim it's possible for men to stop caring about relations with women and getting over it and thus leaving the ranks of inceldom that way. Or other claims innocuous enough I couldn't even be bothered repeating them.

But since, as i said, your response was bereft of any actual content, i wouldn't know any of that. But then i see from looking at your post history you're quite fond of making content free posts, so this is not particularly surprising in context.

[–]Cult_of_ChadSex Master 14 points15 points  (51 children) | Copy Link

This is not a 'single men' issue. A lot of gay men resign themselves to being alone and they don't shoot up straight nightclubs or women's gyms.

Straight men have an entitlement problem and a massively overinflated sense of self-worth. The rest of us learn we're worthless pretty much as a matter of course. There's no path to male self-empowerment that doesn't start from within; no one else can make you worthy.

[–]-SKYMEAT- 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol this is BS and you know it, make a Grindr and you will have a dozen messages within minutes of going online. Unless they happen to live in the middle of nowhere, gay men do not have this issue.

[–]Cult_of_ChadSex Master 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't know anything about how the gay sexual market works. There's supply and demand as anywhere else, and winners and losers.

We all have roughly equal access to bad sex with ugly people.

[–]flow3rpowrBlue Pill Woman 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is wildly detached from reality.

[–]PlebbitBot9000Idiot 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Straight men have an entitlement problem and a massively overinflated sense of self-worth

Nah most men taught they are expendable.

What's your evidence that men are over-valued? You just sort of made the claim without any corroborating evidence.

[–]Cult_of_ChadSex Master 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say straight men are overvalued, I said they overvalue themselves.

[–]IntegrityDJonesI lack empathy and I won’t get your reddit cares message 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. It’s straight men who think the world show blow up because no one wants their dry weewee. They’re massively entitled and don’t understand why their mere existence hasn’t resulted in harems of hot women to use as cum dumpsters

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is very true!

[–]groovygirl858 -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree it is definitely an entitlement problem, more than anything else.

[–]obviousredflagNo Pill Chad (38) in open relationship /w Stacy (25) 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Short answer: men and women are different. There is no reason to expect them to deal with involuntary singlehood the same way.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 16 points17 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Men are still rational humans. They should be able to an expected to control their emotions and not express them in harmful ways.

[–]obviousredflagNo Pill Chad (38) in open relationship /w Stacy (25) 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most of them are. What you are seeing is the most extreme of them who are not able to deal with their situation in non-harmful ways.

That's like saying: why are 95% (or more?) of the prison population men? Yes, they are more aggressive and less agreeable than women, but they are rational humans and should be able to control themselves to no end up committing crimes.

No, men and women are different, and while most trait expression levels can also be found in women too, since the distribution curves overlap for the most part (only small differences in the median/mean value of the normal distribution), the extreme ends of the traits are only represented by one gender.

[–]RealAmericanWeasel 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m glad someone said something. It’s hard for many of us to have a lot of commentary about extreme outliers when a lot of us don’t even know any of these people ourselves. I’ve never had a girlfriend and only one date my entire life. If you saw me or met me out in the world, you’d have no idea. You’d just think I was a regular guy. I don’t know how many people share my experience but I’m pretty certain most of us are pretty average/boring/pedestrian looking and will continue to be the rest of our lives. As far as people committing violence? I really have no insight.

[–]Steakman1All Men Have Piss Bags 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think most of those men recognize violence is wrong and not justified by them being single. It’s that they simply don’t care. Being a man and not being able to have sex, especially if you’re still a virgin, will lead you to being isolated by many. People won’t respect you and you’ll be seen as less of a man. I think the main thing men strive to get from others is respect. So when they have the exact opposite from most people, it’s a problem for them. There’s been pushback from women on their side and now there’s sort of a pride associated with being single as a woman. And a woman’s ability to have sex has never really been associated with their perceived value. It’s more been if she’s had too much sex. On the other hand, you’re still perceived as a loser if you can’t have sex as a man.

Oftentimes I think part of the motive for many violent men who make it on the news is to get attention even if it’s negative. Which is why I think it’s counterproductive to display their name everywhere.

[–]FancyCocktailOlive 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

These young men forget that they are under no obligation to disclose the fact they’re a virgin. Other people only find out because they tell them.

[–]Steakman1All Men Have Piss Bags 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s usually not hard to tell if someone gets around or not based in how they carry themselves around the sex they’re attracted to, or how they talk about relations. It also seems like women want a man to disclose that if they’re seeing each other.

[–]agpass 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think 2 things are probably happening here. For one, men are more predisposed to violence than women and that can translate into violent/aggressive/hateful thoughts.

The second thing is that more women have access to an outlet for these feelings. Women are encouraged to open up emotionally while men seem to be discouraged. You constantly see women hyping up their newly single friends/single friends in general. Women used to have to rely on men before we were allowed to work and I think we celebrate not needing them anymore.

While I do think younger women tend to rely on men/relationships to feel “whole” and have their worth entirely dependent on them, that typically fades as we get older and we find our worth in other things. I’ve learned that there are a lot of men that think there worth lies in the women that fuck them. I don’t think there’s a tendency for these men to bond over this since they are taught to be stoic/unbothered.

Obviously, none of this applies to every man or every women and I’m speaking on an incredibly general level, but those have been my insights.

[–]LowCredditTrans-Inclusive Radical Misogynist 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What's going wrong is two part:

  • Marriage is a shit deal for men, and
  • Women are having money and opportunity shoveled at them at the cost of the men around them.

Single women aren't expressing themselves the same way men are because they aren't men and their situation isn't as bad.

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill 7 points8 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

Whats going wrong here?

Who raised these men? Women. In this generation, almost 50% of sons are in single mother households and 80% of teachers are female.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Single motherhood isn’t new though. Think about it: when men would he sent off to war for months if not years at a time, who was raising the kids?

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It was much rarer though and in most cases, dad came back when the war was over. Moreover, the last major war in the West ended 70 years ago.

The sons of single mothers predominate in all kinds of undesirable categories (prisoners, suicides, homeless, runaways, school dropouts, drug abusers etc). Exactly the type of person you'd expect to shoot up a nightclub.

[–]anonymous-platypus11 points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Well see, here’s my issue with that logic.

The black community is filled with single parent homes, single moms specifically. And while there is a lot of violence, the type of violence and who it’s targeting is much different.

Very rarely to angry black men walk into a grocery store and shoot people because he was angry a woman online rejected him. There may be a shooting at a party where the person who made him angry is, but violence exhibited in the black community is specific…made to hurt specific people.

These men that walk into random schools, shoot up random grocery stores and salons really take their anger and point it at anyone. You do have a point, these men are being raised by single moms, but I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than that.

[–]Podlubnyi1 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Very rarely to angry black men walk into a grocery store and shoot people because he was angry a woman online rejected him. There may be a shooting at a party where the person who made him angry is, but violence exhibited in the black community is specific…made to hurt specific people.

This year an angry black man walked into a subway station and started shooting random people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_New_York_City_Subway_attack

It's actually very rare for anyone to walk into a public place and start shooting random people, and even rarer when they specifically do it because some woman rejected him online. You are talking about a tiny number of people, a percent of a percent of a percent.

It's also debatable whether you need to be significantly more unhinged to shoot up a grocery store full of random people than shoot up a party because one person there pissed you off.

You do have a point, these men are being raised by single moms, but I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than that.

I think it's an aspect worthy of more research.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

One man of color walked into a place intending to do indiscriminate violence. You found one example. There might be maybe three in the last 10 years?

I do think the entitlement issue is exacerbated in certain men. And if you look at the profile of these notorious mass shooters 25 of the 26 (I’ll double check these numbers) have two things in common.

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You found one example.

How many examples of incel-perpetrated mass shootings are you drawing on for your 'incels want to murder us all' thesis?

In most cases, there are other underlying issues with mass killers besides can't get laid. Often a history of drug abuse and/or mental instability, often a history of abuse or bullying, no career prospects. And yes I suspect many came from single mother households.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn’t say incels want to murder us all. I said the media is discussing singledom and putting the onus at controlling those men on women. It really is becoming a discussion topic. Not necessarily incels, but the risk of what can happen if women aren’t quick to enter into relationships.

[–]groovygirl858 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

These men that walk into random schools, shoot up random grocery stores and salons really take their anger and point it at anyone. You do have a point, these men are being raised by single moms, but I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than that.

Correct. Because they feel entitled to sex and relationships and they blame all of society for not providing it to them. They target everyone because they believe everyone contributes to their "neglect."

[–]Early-Christmas-4742 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why are you assuming all the incels are from this 50%?

[–]ConsultJimMoriartyGen X Gay 3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

So why are you blaming the parent that stuck around?

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill -1 points0 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

You mean the one that raised them?

[–]ConsultJimMoriartyGen X Gay 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why aren’t you blaming the parent that abandoned them?

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Should both parents abandon the kid then, and throw the kid in an orphanage? Since single moms are so useless. Should those women follow the deadbeat father's footsteps?

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill -1 points0 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Who picked that deadbeat?

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Who picked being a dad?

Deadbeats are responsible for their own actions. Society needs to stop giving shitty fathers a penis pass. This is why whiny ass manchildren never grow up and blame women for everything.

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Who had unprotected sex with a deadbeat? Who chose to keep the baby? Deadbeat dads exist because women make those deadbeats dads.

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

hey real question, once a woman has sex with a man, is that man no longer responsible for any of his own actions? Or is he now free to abuse, assault, cheat and be selfish as a partner and a father?

you make men sound like they have zero agency and zero responsibility and once they touch pussy they magically transfer over all of their sins. what are they, too stupid or too self unaware to be responsible for anything? sounds pretty pathetic to me.

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

In the 21st century West, a woman has full control over who fathers her children. Once a man has had sex with her, he has zero control over what happens next. The woman can keep the baby against his wishes, she can abort it against his will, she can have the kid without even telling him, she can refuse to name the father, she can disappear with the kid and is not obliged to say where she is, she can put the kid up for adoption without his consent, and legally abandon it without his knowledge.

The real question is why are you pinning responsibility on the one with no control? If you really have a problem with deadbeat dads, then tell women to stop having children with deadbeats. If you want all the reproductive rights, you can have all the responsibility.

[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

LOL what is this BS you completely made up. after birth, a man can use the legal system to force paternity testing - after that the guy has the same amount of parental control over the kid as the mom does.

i think you're projecting, as you very well know, women lose their bodily autonomy in many states in the US and many european countries once pregnant.

honestly, your strawman arguments aren't worth coming back to 3 days later. not sure why I responded to a lot of bad faith made up BS.

[–]Secret_agent979 6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

A woman that no one wanted just for sex… doubtful.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It’s also not special or good to be wanted just to replace someone’s hand, ya know.

[–]Secret_agent979 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Never implied that. Just said doubtful about your statement.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You said it’s doubtful that a woman wouldn’t even be wanted for sex:

  1. It does happen.
  2. Even if it wasn’t true there is nothing fulfilling about someone being willing to have sex with you because it’s better than nothing.

[–]Secret_agent979 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Holy shit, your last paragraph stated “Some have never even have someone only want them for access to sex”. I said doubtful. You need to take a few minutes to read and comprehend before you type please.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I know what you’re replying to! I am saying that even if it’s true, it still doesn’t make it a good point to bring up. Who cares if someone only wants you for sex?

[–]Secret_agent979 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just said doubtful. As in I highly doubt a woman will not have a guy interested in sex, that’s she’s so invisible. Don’t look into it like there’s meaning more than me saying I’m doubtful.

[–]gymbro718nyc2former manwhore 10 points11 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

Incels are already blowing people up or shooting gay clubs up. That latest one could have showered and may have gotten offers to get sex from the guys in the club as opposed to killing them. So these are not idle threats. You should report them to Reddit and the FBI every time some one here threatens that there will be violence unless women start having sex wjth him and his loser brethren.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 19 points20 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Majority of incels aren't actually violent

[–]toasterchild 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nobody said report incels for existing. Not everyone make violent threats but they do happen around here.

[–]Due-Lie-8710 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thats the point there have been extremist in every movement some worse than others

[–]toasterchild 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. so report the ones who make comments.

[–]buntyisbestMedium Value Man 14 points15 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

That's like saying muslims are a threat to society because the vast majority of terrorists are muslims. As someone else already mentioned, while a lot of heinous crimes are committed by some number of incels, most incels are not heinous criminals.

You should report them to Reddit and the FBI every time some one here threatens that there will be violence unless women start having sex wjth him and his loser brethren.

Yes, let's do a minority report type thing where we arrest people based on the suspicion that they might commit acts of violence in the future. These type of actions have of course never led to any group being systematically oppressed or downright hunted ever in modern history. 🙄

[–]EulenWatcher 15 points16 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Most incels aren’t violent, but reporting the ones making violent threats makes sense.

[–]buntyisbestMedium Value Man 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If they're making specific threats of violence, then yes. The OC seemed like he/she meant anyone that makes blanket offensive statements about women should be brought in.

[–]Silent_Confession15 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've been reported for making threats just for observing that more incels in society will result in more incel related violence. Sometimes the people reporting are retarded.

[–]EulenWatcher 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, it can be read as a threat tbh. But it depends on the convo and context.

[–]Silent_Confession15 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Depends on how retarded the other person is tbh

[–]Purple317 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

*Yes, let's do a minority report type thing where we arrest people based on the suspicion that they might commit acts of violence in the future. These type of actions have of course never led to any group being systematically oppressed or downright hunted ever in modern history. *🙄

You think reporting people who threaten acts of violence is… a bad thing?

[–]buntyisbestMedium Value Man 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're going to bring a guy in for questioning because he said he's going to commit specific acts of violence, I would advocate for it. But if you're going to put all the men that say "women are X (insert: hoes, cheaters, manipulative, etc.) and deserve Y" into some sort of a watchlist or worse, put them behind bars because you suspect that they can become violent in the future, then yes it is a bad thing.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

while a lot of heinous crimes are committed by some number of incels

Agree with your comment except this, because the amount of incidents correctly attributed to incels is single digit. In a world with people dying much more frequently for just about any other reason you can think of. I expect more people die from toasters in a year than have ever died from incel attacks.

Edit:

700 people worldwide are killed every year by toasters. The United States alone has 300 toaster-related deaths.

[–]gymbro718nyc2former manwhore 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why are you crying for incels?

[–]Pastakingfifth 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most of us can relate to not being successful with women, being isolated, and not knowing what to do about it.

I don't personally relate to the victim mindset, I relate to those that want to change and are willing to put in the effort but don't know how to.

Some people I give advice to, give them hacks I wish I had in their situation and they double down on their victimhood and basically tell me to fuck off. Those guys disgust me honestly and I don't see a way they're gonna change their situation unless they have a random 180 change in mindset

[–]WideAwake550 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He(or she's) a troll bro.

[–]buntyisbestMedium Value Man 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Incels = involuntary celibates. Just clarifying the definition because nowadays most feminists and simps tend to label anyone that disagrees with their distorted female-supremist, matriarchal worldview as either incels or misogynists.

Now, back to your question. I'm not crying for incels. I'm just clarifying that I don't think men should be jailed unless they're threatening to carry out specific acts of violence as opposed to making blanket offensive statements about women or the sorry state of dating in the western world.

[–]zazaman94 12 points13 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Your rhetoric is harmful. Not all violent men are incels. Not all incels are violent.

[–]Pastakingfifth 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Coordinated violence for the sake of business(theft, drugs, hits, etc) is very different than lashing out type of violence.

I doubt there's even a single recorded case of a guy in a fulfilling relationship that ended up doing the latter and shooting up people.

[–]cromulent_weasel 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I doubt there's even a single recorded case of a guy in a fulfilling relationship that ended up doing the latter and shooting up people.

Nah, all it takes is for them to have a cause they put above all else. Suicide bombers in Gaza or (back in the day) Northern Ireland were absolutely married and left behind widows (who continued the cause).

[–]Pastakingfifth 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

True but then I'd consider that a branch of business rathe than like a shooting which I'd consider more like taking out your anger/hate for the world.

[–]cromulent_weasel 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I still think there are a lot of similarities. I think that the muslim, northern ireland, white supremacist, anti-gay and anti-women violent extremists actually have a LOT in common.

They all have some sort of ideology that is fueling and reinforcing their anger against a target group.

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Very harmful. This is the exact sort of rhetoric that pushes young men to the alt right.

[–]gymbro718nyc2former manwhore 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I used to work for a company that tracks terroristic threats and incels attacks were classified as a terror threat and governments and companies are actively tracking those threats. But sure, my rhetoric is harmful.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This. The Air Force counter terrorism even researches incels and put out information about them as a terrorist group..

[–]KirthWGersen 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

If I had a company that tracked terrorist threats, it would be in my interests to see far more threats than there actually are.

After all, we all like making more money.

[–]gymbro718nyc2former manwhore 11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Our clients wanted to know about these threats. We didn't just make shit up out of thin air. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

[–]KirthWGersen 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I would be more far concerned about those close to or working with me getting killed by a thief, a football hooligan or my neighbour than an incel, no matter how much you try to blow that threat out of all proportion.

If everyone who kills a stranger is now a terrorist, how will we ever spot the guys who are truly organised and ideologically-motivated?

[–]toasterchild 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right but if someone says they are going to rob a store report that too.

[–]_demidevil_lesbian skeptic 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We don’t really know what happened in Idaho yet either. I’ve heard speculation it was an incel.

[–]Pastakingfifth 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hate when I accidentally forget to shower and end up shooting a club. We should make showers more accessible to all. I think this latest one had a different issue though, he forgot to be himself.

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[–]Ambassadior 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Is it something to be fixed? If men don't want to do the work to be viable relationship material they don't have to. Otherwise we'd have to recreate a system to force women to love these men. Not only is it wrong but it doesn't help the men when they are inevitability divorce raped and their kids suffer from horrible households.

Let guys find their own way to enjoy the decline. Less relationships is just a natural state with this new world, if men want it badly enough they figure it out. No reason to force it.

[–]RealAmericanWeasel 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know. There are almost no single females looking to meet someone. I don’t see how you can make generalizations about that small a sample size.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

There are so many single women looking for partners though.

[–]RealAmericanWeasel 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I’m 41 and I’ve never been asked out on a date. If there were, I’d have a lot more interest.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Have you been asked to hangout or to do something with a woman? To say there are no single women is vastly incorrect, there are lots of single men and single women.

[–]RealAmericanWeasel 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No. I haven’t. There are single females but they aren’t looking to meet someone.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes they are. Not all single women just want to be single. Sometimes they just want to meet specific kinds of people.

That would be like a woman saying single men don’t want to date because they are not getting asked out.

[–]RealAmericanWeasel 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can’t speak for females and I’ve never heard that complaint. If they were significant in numbers, I’d have people seeking me out. I haven’t had one. I’ve asked a ton out. Nothing.

[–]nasspolya 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

  1. Incels are mainly quiet, sometimes also kind people. 2. It's not a movement. It's a definition being twisted out. 3. They are - by far - not the greatest problem of our days. They are just another easy target for bullies. 4. Cliché on cliché...

[–]w1se_old_treetreepilled 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why are involuntarily single women

It's incredibly rare for women to be involuntarily single.

[–]ashleyrose56Pink Pill Woman 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This hasn't anything to do with men being "more bitter" than women for being single. Men are just more prone to aggression than women, in every aspect of their lives. This is true even when men are depressed. Women try to kill themselves more, but actually men are more likely to complete when they try. Suicide is the ultimate violence against oneself.

This phenomena is also seen in misandry vs misogyny. Women who hate men, avoid men, they are paranoid and scared of them. Men who are very misogynistic can't live without women, they are the ones who end up being batterers. Women are more likely to experience anxiety sintomatology, again, because of the aggression turned inwards. Men have different ways of coping with stress by externalizing aggression.

[–]jackedsoon||| 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

my guess is a lot of women r ignored by these involunatry guys. i know a ton of average/ 4/10 chicks in my group who r real nice but almost never or never get any attention. only the hot ones. incels will make excuses like shes chadsexual but my experience and many others is that these girls aint like that at all. ur just shooting out ur league when u should date/fuck ur looksmatch(3-5s). if not then stay single

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

See, I see this often too. Im a black woman and I’m not ugly by any stretch of the imagination, but even having something as benign as darker skin can make a woman undateable. Even to men of her own race.

But even beyond that, plain women just don’t get as much attention as men here think. Having someone be willing, no want to, but be willing to have sex with you is not a compliment.

[–]Coolio_Street_RacerTop G Wannabe 3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Men are more pre-disposed to violent tendencies. That's testosterone at work.

Most men are suppose to be frustrated. Women are suppose to be picky. That's nature. There is no solution.

I don't think there is any way to stop mass shootings from men like this. The things they are frustrated about are real. If you are loser man, no one gives a fuck about you. It's a hard life to live. Especially alone. Their anger is just misdirected. Maybe some mental health institutions for men. But I doubt it would ever be implemented properly. They would just shove pills down your throat.

Previous rules that maintained order within a society was making women dependent on men and Slut Shaming. To promote monogamy and therefore a even distribution of women. Which I don't think is what we should do.

Positive Role Models like Tate maybe the best shot we have. Just telling you how it is. Don't be a loser...

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Frustrated and murderous are not the same thing.

[–]Coolio_Street_RacerTop G Wannabe 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess that depends on how you deal with that frustration.

[–]ppdbanker 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Idk with all the wars and historical messes men and humanity have made, I don't think making women dependent on men necessarily maintained order. It just ensured women remained in abusive homes, workplaces and marriages.

[–]Coolio_Street_RacerTop G Wannabe -2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It helped distribute women more evenly throughout society and promoted monogamy. I’m sure some women where abused. But I doubt it was the majority of women.

Either way I’m not saying that’s a good option. Just what was done in the past to mitigate this situation.

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It actually didn’t distribute to women evenly. Women were goods. They were given to the person that could pay the most for them. If you were a poor man in a village, you would likely still be single. It also didn’t promote monogamy because why then would prostitution be a thing?

[–]ziriani 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

“Why are involuntarily single women not expressing the same violent behaviors, especially when they have much more to lose, much more quickly than the single man?”

Testosterone

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So are you saying men can’t control their anger?

[–]ziriani 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m saying that testosterone both drastically increases sex drive and proneness to anger. Plenty of single men aren’t violent at all and can control any anger that they may have, but you’ll find many more single men than single women that respond in this way because their biology makes them more likely do so. Same reason why there are more men in prison than women. Most guys are chilled out, but the most violent people in the population are men

[–]cromulent_weasel 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's a triple whammy of testosterone, childhood trauma, and the MAO8 gene. If you have all three of those factors, then the odds that you are one of the 5% of men who are violently antisocial skyrockets.

[–]Green-Quantity1032 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Seriously?

Because once every 3 years some lunatic kills some people there's a movement now?

Those people mostly sit at home jerking off and lamenting online about not being above 5'7.

And yeah I can see how not having someone agreeing to touch and even consider you can be worse than not agreeing to marry you.

If I was in their situation I don't think I'd explode (most don't), I'd probably try to better myself, and if that was to no avail I'd probably implode. I don't see how it's society's responsibility that some people are genetic fuckups (no offence)

[–]anonymous-platypus1[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don’t think we should have to put up with this. But the issue is that incel rhetoric spreads and it only takes one person and Americas lax ass gun laws to have a tragedy. These men sit in online forums validating each others hatred…and now it’s getting to a point where the onus to fix it is on women.

What would people like women to do here?

[–]Green-Quantity1032 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not on women, it's not on anyone.

In the 60s you had hot serial killers, now they're fugly one-time killers - guys kill people sometimes, especially with lax ass gun access.

I don't know anyone in real life who has ever even raised this issue.

But yeah in general I'd advise people to reject others kindly - but do reject.

It's a repeating theme in this sub for some (SOME) women to be like "so now it's our responsibility to have sex with unattractive men?", and I don't know who expects that, but no sane person would - use your freedom of choice, be as picky as you want - basement-dwelling losers won't bother you unless you're online, life goes on.

[–]Abandons65No Pill 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women just aren’t inherently violent like men, additionally the amount of single women who genuinely can’t get a relationship but want one is shockingly few. While with men there is a good amount especially amongst young men where they can’t get a relationship due to factors out of their control (looks, height, shit like that).

For women they almost always will have access to intimacy while a man feels shunned by society and that no one cares about them, so why should they care about society and not just say fuck it and be violent etc.

[–]NotARussianBot1984RPM, personal experience, not complaining. I love my life. 4 points5 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Many people tell single men "you are not entitled to sex". They are increasingly responding "you are not entitled to a civilized society"

Society needs to ensure everyone can participate since there isn't enough police to handle even 5% being criminals. Its same reason we have welfare, to give people on the brink with nothing left to lose something to keep em going, no much just bare minimum.

[–]Purple317 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link