Should average men complement their dating life with escorts?

For example ive had very complex and mixed feelings about sex with escorts. I think there are good and bad things about it, and its a matter of perspective, i could list all of those thoughts but i suppose it doesnt matter.

It is also cool as a one off experience. Im a neurodivergent mid at best guy. Chance to nut on a face of a gorgeous dark brazilian woman that i wouldnt even meet/see in my part of the world? Why not? You only live once, even if the value of that you get to decide for yourself.

I do really like the idea because it reveals the double standards that women have, and i love debates on selfish human nature.

I do get you though

[–]PracticalControl21792 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Everyone wants something for something else.

There is no unconditional love between adults. Friends require you be a friend back, you won’t maintain a one sided friendship for long. If I count on my friends to be there for me, I have to be there for them too. I don’t need my husband for money, but I’m not going to remain a faithful and loving wife to my husband if he isn’t faithful and loving back. That’s our mutual agreement, our agreed transaction. The emotional connection is real, but that emotional connection can end if one party starts not keeping up their end of that bargain.

That’s very different than the relationship between a boss and an employee though, which is what prostitution is. Purchasing a physical act for money is also a transaction , but it’s a fundamentally different transaction. You can pay someone to do a job, you can’t pay someone to have a genuine human connection.

[–]chobolicious882 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Im conflicted here.

Are you saying men (and women) need to be transparent with their past sexual history?

Ive only recently started going out with escorts, so i dont yet have an attitude on this.
On one hand, im tempted to own it, as thats what i typically do.
On the other hand im tempted to alter the truth, like women do with bodycounts for example, maybe as an experiment.

Ill probably do the former.

You do raise some questions, but I think the question goes out to everyone. Why should I have same values for women I have for myself? Women and men are not the same.
And even those values are influenced by how attractive, and how many options one has really.

Its so wild to me that you say "whoremonger". Because I had some experiences?
I found it to be sexual exploration. Thats how women phrase it, no?
Women I dated for example rarely wanted some sexual acts I wanted to try out.
Maybe because they were more vanilla, but also maybe because im not super hot.
Either way, it seems to work well.

As for dating whores - i dont' know, i dont think we would have much in common, and they also tend to be extremely attractive, so I dont think we would fit there well?
I think what works very well for me, and men in general, is to date women who are into them genetically, and then form an emotional relationship with them.

Yeah I tend to be seen as relationship material, as im pretty low key and not too masculine and somewhat on the autism spectrum.
Thats why Ive found having these escort experiences supplemented my sexual life quite well.

[–]Ppdebatesomental2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Im trying to allude how women dont like when womens mentality is pointed towards them.
Women tend to operate as "mens disprooval -> they dont want best for us, they hate us, misoginy", and its quite funny to see reactions when I do the same.
My point is to get you to think how we are all very selfish, and it ultimately isnt about morality and its all about ourselves (women and men), disguised as morality.
The whole promiscuity/whoremongering is what pains us when we dont get our way.

You could argue i wasnt empathetic by going into whores, but you just proved how your insticts are not empathetic towards me.
So we either both own that, or both try to understand where it comes from and raise social awareness.

I dont think whores want to get married, so i dont really know about that.
Ive never went on a date with an escort, and im guessing its not misogyny. That point you made isnt really defined. Do whores even want to date average guys? Or date at all? Lots of assumptions there, nothing concrete.

Men may rule out prostitutes, but they are being forced to accept higher and higher body counts. In such a world, its only fair that men start doing what men want as well.

Im glad for our exchange, but nowhere in your replies have i seen you stop to reflect and question your own knee jerk reactions.

[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I really dont care about shoulds anymore, im 36.
I only deal with facts.

Facts that i have noticed is:

Women care less about what men think, and body counts are up
Women tend to manipulate/control men via sex
Men dont like promiscuity, women dont like "whoremongering"
Im blackpilled based on my own experience, and women who find my genes endearing find my flaws endearing too, and those relationships tend to work no matter what I do, and work for both people in the long run. They will look past me being with escorts.
Women who have a problem with my actions tends to be the women who would have had more power in the relationship with me anyway or have a higher standard, so Id be pleasing them more often either way, which doesnt really work for me in the long run
Women (and men) say things but actions matter more than words, and our standards adapt based on power/being in love with genes
Men cave because men want sex/pussy, even when they disagree with women

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[–]Ppdebatesomental3 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You don’t “know” a new friend either. Your interaction with them is no more or less shallow. Hookups aren’t necessarily deep, but they are, or should be mutual fun

If you didn’t enjoy your hookups, make them breakfast, smash again, kiss them goodbye and remember them with fondness, then you’re doing it wrong. If you have never turned a hookup into a str, ltr or fwb, that says more about you than it does about the nature of hookups.

But I guess asking the hooker how much she will charge you just to kiss her sounds equally as intimate as a hookup. Something tells me an interaction where you pay extra to have her pretend to actually like you pretty much says she isn’t spending time with you for mutual enjoyment. If a hookup is sex with a new friend, the girlfriend experience is sex with a new person you are paying to act like your new friend. Which sounds both creepy and pathetic.

Basically, in modern dating, the only difference between a hookup, a str and an ltr is how long this new relationship continues. You don’t “know” someone on the third date either. Very, very few people require having deep knowledge of your new partner or wait for months before having sex. It’s still very, very different than negotiating the cost of a blowjob.

[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok but let me challenge you then.

"Hookups aren’t necessarily deep, but they are, or should be mutual fun"
But thats a should? What should a hookup be?
Some women sleep with guys from the club they hate, but enjoy toxic sex because its powerful and hot. And they can like the experience, not the person.
The same women object heavily when men complain about that?

Id also say the "mutual fun" is something you could want, but I dont understand a should?
You dont experience the other persons feelings, unless you want to be validated by them having fun with you? Or youre preoccupied with your own feelings of fun?

Ive had quite friendly hookups, had pleasant coffees the next day.
Typically I do say "sleep with at least who you like", but in the end.. why do we have these beliefs, what are we optimizing for exactly? For whose rules and morality?

If someones life is better because they fucked someone they dont even like, who cares.

You also make an assumption that an escort cant enjoy a person.
Last escort i went with, we had a genuine laugh in the end, and actually hugged eachother.
It was a nice experience.
In the end, it wasnt that much different compared to the last Tinder hookup I did.

Both are shallow in the end.
I guess the romantic in me believes ultimately in actual love, but who cares.
Im practically annoyed and got dissapointed by modern dating and western women. Which is why i adopted their motto - who cares, i can empower myself and do whatever I want to get experience id like.
Sometimes its a ltr, sometimes its hookup, sometimes i pay to have experiences with a woman i could never get to hook up with me. So, I benefit. Can the world support me being empowered in my choices instead of hating me?Because the criticisms seem to be coming from people who want something for them, or out of me, not whats best for me.

[–]Ppdebatesomental3 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Im trying to understand what you are reasoning?
My best woman friend is a girl i hooked up with initially, but you are generalizing.

To quote my ex, she hooked up a lot, some of those guys eventually she really disliked, some turned into ltrs.
My point is, you dont know in the end who the person is until some time passes.
You could make an argument how what matters is the feelings you have at the time of the hookup, and if thats genuine, thats all that matters.

But what im saying is its all perspective. Theres people who judge pre maritial sex.
We are all somewhere on a scale, and why? Because we want something for us, not what works for the other person.

Chances are extremely high she would have enjoyed it even more if you just paid her and you went away without ever having to touch you

That is true, i can see her preferring me just leaving the money ofcourse.
At the same time, id prefer just getting paid without doing my job as well. But it doesnt mean the job doesnt have some element of experience to it.
This one is bit of a logic discussion so im moreso entertaining myself here.

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[–]BarberNo331 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not to throw myself under the bus but I’ve definitely slept with average looking guys BY CHOICE 💀 they definitely can and they do.

The difference between two average guys is often as small as how he carries himself (confident, chill), HYGIENE (good breath, smells good, washed clear skin), and how he presents himself (well-dressed in whatever style he prefers, GOOD HAIR). So few guys care about their looks it’s crazy. They never thought about how to maximize their look. Just as an example, so many guys get immediate left swipes on dating apps because they just don’t seem to gaf what their photos look like. Terrible selfies, blurry pics, just horrendous. If you’re average, you have to make yourself look as good as possible. And a good hairstyle/grooming does WONDERS for so many men. I cannot express enough that if you don’t seem to give a damn if you look good, girls will not be into you. Idk if this is falling on the wrong ears idek why I decided to write this but I see this all the time and I need my average boys to know this.

[–]krmaml2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BarberNo331 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How’s your hair? And facial hair? How are your pics on Tinder? Your pics are #1 priority on dating apps. The people with the best profiles have photos that make them look like living a good life is primary, tinder is secondary. Candid and action photos.

I think height is overrated. My longest term ex was 5’6”. The celebrity I simp for the most is 5’6.5”. My preference doesn't change the dominant preference but hopefully shows you there’s niches for guys who don’t fit the chad template.

I admit I mostly slept with guys I’d consider above average. But I did sleep with a guy who looks like this dude on the left without the acne and less receding hairline (still receding tho)… I couldn’t find good examples for the other guys. You’ll just have to take my word for it as someone who knows about truerate. Average at best. But these guys had an energy or a passion that made them interesting. Feel free to send me your idea of an average man though.

I do think it’s sad that millions of men are going through this, but there are a number of things they can, and even need, to do.

[–]krmaml2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BarberNo331 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is that how we measure attractiveness? 😂 tbh it’s not really fair, because most humans are biased to find women more attractive than men, women wear makeup, and what makes you attractive as a woman might not translate to attractiveness as a man, etc. I get the idea though. I agree society is harsh to men. Some of the guys you listed would also look good as girls, but I’m sure you agree with that.

But I genuinely think all of these guys will improve with some attention to their looks. Most of these guys need to work out, maybe lose weight. Selfie improvement. Style. Hair changes. Pluck em eyebrows. Maybe they can’t become chads… but they can definitely improve.

I’m actually antinatalist lol I do not want to have my own children. I’m sure my biological children would be really cute and smart and creative but I just don’t wanna do all that.

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[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You describe the first thing as if its situational. Feminism coming from the west basically if trying to communicate that exact thing. Its not just “some women” who id exclude as partners anyway.

Feminism is all for women sexual liberation, and calling men misogynistic for not liking promiscuity and large body counts. And then if you say you have issues with feminism, even women who are not radicalized will look at you weird, just because you dared to question the dominant narrative.

Maybe i am overblowing it and need to spend less time online.

Your example is fair, i do think promiscuous women pair better with men who can pull a lot and easily.

Im not really arguing for what a woman should be with me, im arguing on what is fair and should be accept as truth/consensus. It makes me puke when i see “misogyny” thrown around, because of double standards involved.

You do seem reasonable though, so i appreciate your reply.

I think the high body count vs buying escorts id a good debate material. You say they are on different levels, which may be true. But there should be a way to figure that out, because to you, the weight of buying escorts is higher, than woman being promiscuous. For me, id rather date someone who has body count of 10 and did one escort, than someone with a body count of 100. Also its not fair to use same rules because we arent the same, in our drives nor in our ability to get laid on demand, nor hookup with an extremely attractive person.

For example, lets say we have 80 years on avg on this earth. Instead of blaming people, why not look at it as - why not for once have a sexual experience with someone who has insanely high levels of attractiveness. A random joe will never be able to hookup with someone that looks like J Lo. A woman can easily walk into a bar and offer sex to an extremely attractive man and he will take it.

So why not have cool experiences? And why not acknowledge how men and women are different.

[–]BarberNo332 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I want to say it's an effect of the rebound against women's forced social chasteness for much of history, but in saying that, I don't actually know to what degree men have been "allowed" promiscuity. I agree it's long overdue to stop with the double standards though, we're living in different times now, but I guess they're still going with it.

Ideally we accept that people are allowed to have preferences but... yeah. It's messy. I do see it as situational on a personal level, but you're right, feminists are still pushing this topic. I guess they'll keep talking about it as long as they think the idea still persists that it's socially acceptable for men to have high body counts and not women. But at some point, you have to accept that people are allowed to have preferences and if the person you like doesn't like your body count, as long as it's not a double standard, then maybe try to discuss it or move on...

For me, id rather date someone who has body count of 10 and did one escort, than someone with a body count of 100. Also its not fair to use same rules because we arent the same, in our drives nor in our ability to get laid on demand, nor hookup with an extremely attractive person.

I see what you're saying. I'd be more inclined to date the first person too. If it's a one-off thing, especially if they're an otherwise trustworthy person, cool. Now if it was a choice between someone with a body count of 100 partners/hookups, and someone with a body count of 10 escorts, I'd be concerned 😂 In general, the worry for both choices is trustworthiness. But even I'd consider paying for a male escort if he was that ridiculously attractive to me, for the experience.

I appreciate the reasonable discussion as well.

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Ah yes the girlfriend experience. In which the prostitutes pretend to really be into the guy who pays them , some buy a nice condo , car , phone and pay other bills for her in exchange for sex and her providing the illusion of being a girlfriend.

Those are not average men not remotely average. Earning under $ 250, 000 would make that difficult.

Wealthy men have hired prostitutes for a very long time.

They pay for different reasons. The average man doesn’t have the money for a escort. The average man seeking a prostitute needs to either risk arrest, STI and other infectious diseases. Public humiliation or go where brothels and prostitution are legal.

Where it is legal and regulated reasonably. There’s less STIs and less simping behaviors by men . Which are good things.

Women don’t like prostitution because it reduces their leverage. A man can never consider a prostitute, yet if prostitution is legal the option exists. That by default reduces using sex as leverage a extremely toxic behavior in a relationship. But it happens.

Women withhold sex to manipulate a man into something he would not do otherwise. This is abuse . It is cruel , manipulative, controlling and destroys relationships.

Most women don’t do this . Men who are in these relationships need help to leave and follow up mental health care thats designed for men .

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I called you a bot because you’ve been spamming the same bogus surveys of guys on Craigslist calling them “studies” as if they prove anything, and making wild generalizations about their conclusions. That’s bot like behavior and I’m going to call it that when I see it.

As for taking things personally, I believe I’ve done a pretty good job debunking the survey results for what they are. Biased and unrepresentative.

As for my own personal experience, yeah I do and I don’t hide it. That’s how I know what kind of men and women do this. My roomie was an ER nurse who got me into this. She would sugar with other doctors because it just fit their lifestyle better. So not because they were “sad and horny”, but because they were busy and horny. A lot of very busy, very successful, men and women of all ages do this, and it works out for everyone.

And I don’t need to convince you of anything, I already said that I’m not in my other post to you. I believe I said, you can stay naive and judgmental if you want, or you can stop judging people for what they do in their private lives behind closed doors, because it literally doesn’t impact you at all. Doesn’t matter to me.

I’m just telling you the reality is you probably know more than one person you love and respect, who is or has seen sex workers. That’s just statistics.

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https://ht-radar.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Farley-et-al-2015-Comparing-Sex-Buyers-With.pdf

Men who use hookers are bad people.

It isn’t “hypocrisy” to legally support something, but acknowledge that the people who do it are bad. Like cheating. No one is going to arrest a cheater.

Sex buyers were more likely than men who did not buy sex to report sexual aggression and likelihood to rape. Men who bought sex scored higher on measures of impersonal sex and hostile masculinity and had less empathy for prostituted women, viewing them as intrinsically different from other women. When compared with non-sex-buyers, these findings indicate that men who buy sex share certain key characteristics with men at risk of committing sexual aggression as documented by research based on the leading scientific model of the characteristics of non-criminal sexually aggressive men, the Confluence Model of sexual aggression.

[–]OldThrwy [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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https://www.aerlawgroup.com/blog/what-is-the-difference-between-escorting-and-prostitution/

Los Angeles has the same terminology.

An escort is someone who is paid to spend time with you. The person may accompany you to dinner, entertainment venues, business affairs, or simply spend time talking to you. They are paid for their time in socializing with you.

Escorts are legal in California. However, they must have a valid license, and they are prohibited from performing sexual services. Providing escort services without a license is a crime in most cities and counties.

A prostitute is someone who offers sexual services in return for money or other forms of consideration. California Penal Code §647(b) PC makes prostitution a crime within the state. Prostitution falls under the umbrella of sex crimes in California.

https://constitutionus.com/law/is-escorting-legal-in-the-united-states/

And in most states

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Zomg that’s not what that study says AT ALL. Did you read it?? They offered $45 to a bunch poor guys on Craigslist for their opinions on sex workers. The demographics of this study are “low income, middle aged men in Boston on Craigslist looking for easy cash” not “men who use prostitutes”.

And secondly, it doesn’t even claim they are “bad people”. It claims they are a tad higher on some scale that’s supposed to measure feature of sexual aggression. The NSAs in the study were barely below the SAs, and they admit this in the morning”limitations” section when they talk about how they basically have a highly biased paper.

But do you know who else measures high on that scale? Men who women are attracted to. Men who find success in business. Doctors, lawyers, and business executives score higher on that scale. And guess what, women love them for it. Women looooove dark tetrad men. They’re not “bad” men.

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I do know sex workers and have worked with them. And I have worked with and met people who have seen sex workers. Even if they are polite, it doesn’t change the fact that they did stuff in a questionable consent situation. I also cited many statistics about how most sec workers have been abused or raped in some way. A significant portion are also under 18. A huge portion are also homeless or formerly homeless, addicted to drugs, are being pumped out or trafficked, etc. most people know this, and the men who frequent these sex workers usually know but don’t care. Many justify it (including on this thread) by saying “well everything we buy is made in a sweatshop so it’s okay for me to have sex with prostitutes”. If you want me to pull up the statistics on the abuse prostitutes face, I will.

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[–]YouHateTheMostMarried Purple Pill Woman | Blue-leaning [score hidden] 1 year ago (31 children) | Copy Link

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Okay, let’s walk down the kids angle. Having kids dramatically affects a relationship- it changes financial considerations, how to plan a life together, activities that can be done. It’s not a switch that can be “turned off” when the relationship is gotten into.

Let’s bring this back to the escort question and I can try to explain why you sound, at best, dishonest with yourself. Pretty much every man here with an eye for “how it works” sussed out the second half of your two part statement because they’ve heard the generic, feel good advice and learned that it actually doesn’t work that way in reality.

Imagine a guy being in a dry spell and lonely, so he considers getting an escort. He talks to the women around him, and they say “Yeah man do it! Sex work is real work!”

He does it, he’s open and honest about it, and his next few relationships/Dates go terribly because it’s a turn off for women, but none of his friends admitted to it. He’d be right for feeling like those friends weren’t honest with him, right?

You shouldn’t have to be prompted to admit you’re not cool with it personally. That’s a facet of this you should volunteer to make sure you’re actually giving good advice.

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Yes. Imagine you’re sitting at a dinner between 4-5 friends, and one of them, male and single, tells you in confidence that he’s feeling very lonely and touch starved and none of his dates have gone well. He’s seriously thinking of getting an escort, but is afraid that if he does it will be a turn off for future dates.

Now, do you just tell him that that’s a great idea and sex work is real work and that it’ll be fine for him, or do you lead with the idea that you personally find it desperate and a turn off? You should at least preface it with your feelings so he doesn’t get the wrong idea that he won’t face any difficulties, objections, or failed dates because he went through with it.

It’s information you should START with and move from therein to discuss to set expectations accordingly. What is irritating, I think, is how you first voiced support of the idea and then needed to be asked that second, clarifying bit.

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[–]PracticalControl21791 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nowhere was I uncivil. I just stated facts.

And you’re asking a loaded question. You are trying to “clap back” against women who don’t like men who use prostitutes.

Example 1:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7305278/

Overall, 73% of women entered the sex trade to get drugs, 36% of women entered to get basic necessities such as food or housing, and 17% of women entered to support their children or family. Of significance, 21% of those aged < 18 years at entry reported being either coerced, threatened, pressured, misled, tricked, or physically forced into trading sex compared to 5% in those who entered at an older age group (p value < 0.001).

https://www.fondationscelles.org/pdf/current-assessment-of-the-state-of-prostitution-2013.pdf#:~:text=We%20estimate%20that%20there%20are%2040-42%20million%20prostitutes,majority%20are%20immigrants%20and%20victims%20of%20human%20traficking.

We estimate that there are 40-42 million prostitutes in the world (UN, 2009), of which 75% are between 13-25 years old. More than nine out of ten prostitutes depend on a pimp. In Western Europe, between one and two million people prostitute themselves, of which a majority are immigrants and victims of human trafficking. In the Netherlands, roughly 20,000 prostitutes (in a population of 17 million people); in Spain and Germany, hypothetical estimates project upwards 300,000 prostitutes.

https://worldmetrics.org/prostitution-statistics/

About 40% of prostitutes in the United States are former child victims. In the United States, prostitution arrests have decreased by 50% from 2001 to 2016. The average age of entry into prostitution in the United States is 12-14 years old. 71% of female prostitutes in one study experienced physical assault

Only about 2% of prostitutes said they were in the profession by choice.

Approximately 96% of prostitutes have experienced some form of violence.

Around 89% of women in prostitution want to escape but do not have the resources to do so.

The average age of a girl entering prostitution in the U.S. is 12-14 years old.

https://www.streetlight.uk.com/the-facts/

Most psychologists believe the long-term psychological harm resulting from prostitution is comparable to that from rape or domestic violence. Beyond the Streets highlights that 76% of those involved in prostitution experience some form of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

[–]YouHateTheMost1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thank you for providing studies; however, none of them show the percentage of women who are in this profession involuntarily, rather that this is a dangerous profession, which is unfortunate. Like I said, it needs to be decriminalized, so that people who are mistreated while performing the service can get help without a criminal record slapped on them. Still don't see the 0.00001% percentage you provided earlier.

You are trying to “clap back” against women who don’t like men who use prostitutes.

If I'm clapping back against anyone, it's against people who apply double standard to clients and providers of sex work. If we want to normalize women choosing to do sex work, we should normalize men going to sex workers as well. If we want to condemn men who buy sex, we should condemn sex work providers as well. All I'm calling for is consistency for both sides.

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I have no clue. There's weird divide between women who claim feminism.

On one side, the progressive side, some of them say that sex work is "real work" and that it's empowering, good for both men and women, and shouldn't be taboo or shamed in any way.

On the other side, the conservative side, most of them say that sex work is "exploitation", that it's fueled by the patriarchy, that it's all for the male gaze and male pleasure, and that it's the most vile exploitation of women under capitalism.

The only place they seem to agree is that there's nothing morally wrong about engaging in it as a woman, but it's totally disgusting and abhorrent to partake in it as a man, and if you do, you're a loser.

I think it's just nasty, in my opinion, to have sex with someone who clearly isn't attracted to you, in exchange for money. It's like paying to convince someone who you would otherwise be rejected by, to engage with you sexually because they're in need of money.

[–]Dependent-Tailor7366 [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigMoistTwonkiePurple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well the people who say that also call themselves feminists, that's what I was getting at. Nowadays, there are both right-leaning women and left-leaning women who both call themselves feminists, who are on totally opposite sides of the political isle and agree on almost nothing.

A lot of the people who talk about the "empowerment" that come from sex work are literally just women who work in the sex industry. Mostly women who do production-level pornography, onlyfans, or women who do specific kink-type prostitution (like BDSM dominatrixes / pay-piggy domsub type stuff, just as an example).

Although there are probably those who claim it's empowering as well without actually engaging in it themselves. A lot of women who are feminists are also in line with the whole "free the nipple" thing and find public nudism (which is a sexual fetish) to be "empowering".

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Good for them in terms of whether or not it's contributing to their lives in a positive way that isn't degrading to the woman or man's sense of self.

Obviously, the women are profiting off of it and the men are losing money (willingly), so you could in some sense think of sex work as the exploitation of men by women, by that view.

It's like drug dealers. They profit off of the addict's addiction / lack of ability to stay clean.

Women who are sex workers profit off of the men's loneliness / lack of ability to find a partner.

I don't think anybody would say that it's "a good thing" to be a drug dealer who sells fentanyl and crack, nor is it a good thing to be an addict, because it isn't.

I don't think that anybody should say that it's "a good thing" to be a sex worker, nor is it a good thing to be a person who pays for sex, because it isn't.

The commodification of relationships in any form rubs me the wrong way. I don't like it and I never have. People are open to disagree, I don't hate you if you do but I think it's a warped way to view human sexuality as being this thing that can so easily be chalked up to something that you can just slap a monetary value on and present as a transaction. As a person who only wants to have sex with consenting women who have some sort of emotional connection with me, I find something about that entire worldview just gross and somewhat trashy.

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A lot of very wealthy, high status, men such as professional athletes, CEOs , actors , high powered attorneys and other men that can easily date a attractive woman. Hire prostitutes.

There’s apps for that . There are men who are “ amazing “ that pay for the girlfriend experience. They are not the average man .

They are paying for her attention, time and at least appearing to desire him.

Many prostitutes have said their clients frequently want someone to talk with and listen to them as well as sex .

It’s not my thing but prostitution should be legal , have rational regulations and safe for everyone involved.

Making things you don’t like or disagree with illegal, doesn’t make them go away.

The idea of being with someone who has been with hundreds or thousands of men is repulsive to me. But it’s none of the government’s business out side of a safe work place .

Women don’t want prostitution legal because it makes sex easily accessible to a lot more men and is in a way a form of competition.

Legal prostitution reduces simping. In Brazil it is legal and there’s less simping. In part because simping is seen as hiring a prostitute.

Simps are trying to buy affection and sex with attention, validation, time, and services .

What’s the difference when a simp is willing to buy a woman a new phone , car , pay for her meals and whatever else a simp will do ?

Some men do buy prostitutes gifts . Thats a simping .

Why do you think some men pay only fools thots ? Those men are paying for the illusion of a relationship.

The simp wastes money and the thot lowers her RMV to the floor .

Her SMV is eventually lower also .

[–]Omnisteezus10 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Consistent-Career8885 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thats why feminist in particular want to keep prostitution illegal. It increases leverage thry have

If prostitution is legal. Just the idea of thst reduces that leverage in a relationship and reduces simping. I Colombia where prostitution is illegal, the culture encourages dating and meeting people for a relationship. Its much easier to strike up a conversation.

In Brazil prostitution is legal . Simping is culturally and due to legal prostitution dramatically reducers .

Brasilias can be perplexed and find simping highly offensive.

There’s other countries Wherr prostitution is legal . Each s unique. I would have to check laws in Germany. I didn’t notice simping in Poland . To be fair a fellow operator i met in The hospital while recovering went to Auschwitz and Majdanek concentration camps .As we are into history. Not exactly where you meet women for a date or aporach It a very somber experience.

I believe the Netherlands and couple other countries.

Simping seems to be particularly bad in the US and Canada.

It not really acceptable in Latin and Hispanic countries, In think coming from azmixed anglo Hispanic family I learned not to simp and also when something isn’t simping . Like PDAS .

[–]krmaml1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Consistent-Career8881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That must be a cultural thing . Is prostitution legal or , quasi legal or completely illegal. I have not been to India or SE Asia . Pakistan snd other unmanned countries in Asia while in the military.

I don’t really know your culture well . My interactions are with people who live in western countries.

I am saddened to hear that . Simping is a scrouge on humanity that needs to be eliminated.

Never dated a woman from any of the cultures in India and Asia except a by birth Irainan woman who hates Islam and I guess I was part of her on woman revolt being US military would certainly get the a mullahs and Ayatollahs in a state religion induced of hate a rage. . She was a lot if fun and a wonderful person.

Could you elaborate about this simping in India ? People benefit from learning what other cultures are like .

[–]chobolicious881 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lellat5 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Consistent-Career8882 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don’t know how to explain what I saw easily. It is a bit cultural too.

There’s less simping in Brazil. You can hire almost any type of prostitutite from a one and done low fee pro to the extremely attractive high end escort. Some use Instagram , Tik Tok and Wattsapp to conduct business including international clients.

Some men for whatever reasons hire a prostitute. Because it exists legally. There’s less simping. Those men who want sex can get it . Simping is seen as worse than hiring a prostitute.

I hope we can agree simping , white knighting , nice guy emotional tampon behavior is not healthy , degrading and harmful to men and women.

Less simping is a good thing .

The APA is planning on making what we call simping a DX with criteria un a revision on the DSM V though a version of simping that is seen in women more than men , people pleasing. Has been a equally harmful behavior.

These both need treatment and recognition as a serious harmful dangerous disorder.

I have seen how harmful simping and people pleasing are .

What’s wrong with calling simping for what it is. Trying to exchange being always available, goods and services, always agreeable, for a relationship that includes sex .

How is the simps behavior any different than a prostitutes client. Besides one exchange is more honest.

How many women will take advantage of simps , nice guys and assorted enablers.

Thats part of what drives this entire sub . It’s beeb going on for at least 60 years.

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[–]AutomatShopNo Pill [score hidden] 1 year ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Usually men pay for most expenses, earn more, are more educated, have higher resources...

Such women are not giving enthusiastic consent?

Usually the women would not be having sex if they weren’t getting paid.

I suspect there is a wide range of sex work and in fact it is considered quite equitably dignified in virtually all non-USA developed countries.

I would imagine glamour of 'high class hookers' often, but not always, can cover up some wounds and scars like addictions, mental illness etc especially when criminalized.

I believe high class escorts, defined basically as very beautiful women who have some control and safety and command high prices in wealthier areas... can have clients who actually treat them as considerately or moreso than average daters.

Unfortunately many women, and men, who fail to conform to their insular childhood community standards, as well as 'mentally diverse' women and men often find themselves in the sex trade, which has glamour and problems, often due to criminalization complications.

I'm not sure what the difference is between paying for a regular escort dating setup and paying for a modern dating setup, with no expectations for honesty, disclosure, serious intent, family formation, exclusivity, etc. If a man is paying for dates and having sex... where woman would not go out with man if he didn't foot bills... that is unenthusiastic consent, and thus prostitution?

A man is helped by not spending on women because then they are invested and have paid their ticket to ride, so to speak. Any woman who would want her guy to earn more or pay or provide or protect is a prostitute, if she would not be attracted or accepting dating or relationship otherwise?

I suppose love is a powerful current, be careful not to get pulled under.

[–]PracticalControl2179 [score hidden] 1 year ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutomatShopNo Pill [score hidden] 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Ha, you use men to their death, it is less ghastly than sex work, but men are crushed to early grave every moment of every day, men are success objects and used for their time, money, labor, sex and other resources.

Dating a man and allowing him to spend money... that was not love, but rather covert sex work, using a success worker man, not loving him.

So the better metaphor is men getting ick about covert sex workers, that is, non-traditional women who accept men spending money on them. That might be a "Bullseye!" Any non-trad woman favoring men who buy them food or booze or who have nice cars or jobs have a separate ick, a prostitution-ick, as well as a promiscuous-impulsive-ick.

I see that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, the UK, Japan, S. Korea and all other allies have fully legalized prostitution so guess what - prostitution is coming for all the struggling single women you know.

[–]PracticalControl2179 [score hidden] 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutomatShopNo Pill [score hidden] 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]PracticalControl2179 [score hidden] 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Here is what you said:

Ha, you use men to their death, it is less ghastly than sex work, but men are crushed to early grave every moment of every day, men are success objects and used for their time, money, labor, sex and other resources.

What? Are you seething about men working full time to provide for their families? Are you comparing financially supporting your wife and kids to paying a prostitute? Is the sole reason for working and supporting your family to have your wife bang you? And most women work too. Is she working to get laid? Or like, you know, important things like housing and childcare?

This is antagonizing and agitated text.

Dating a man and allowing him to spend money... that was not love, but rather covert sex work, using a success worker man, not loving him.

And here you are comparing getting treated to a few dates as “covert sex work”. Explain how this is not antagonizing nor agitated nor hostile.

So the better metaphor is men getting ick about covert sex workers, that is, non-traditional women who accept men spending money on them. That might be a “Bullseye!” Any non-trad woman favoring men who buy them food or booze or who have nice cars or jobs have a separate ick, a prostitution-ick, as well as a promiscuous-impulsive-ick.

Why do you differentiate between trad and non trad? And how is this not supposed to be mean spirited and angry and antagonizing? How many women do you know are getting lavished with gifts and money by random men? Or do you mean a dinner date at Applebees or something?

I see that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, the UK, Japan, S. Korea and all other allies have fully legalized prostitution so guess what - prostitution is coming for all the struggling single women you know.

How tf is this not meant to be antagonizing?

[–]AutomatShopNo Pill [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you are making fair points, which I will still disagree with, but I retract former accusations of unreasonable nature. I think you seem personally reasonable, and wish you well.

To be clear I thought your previous replies were capricious and glib, but perhaps I imputed some malign spirit.

This is antagonizing and agitated text.

Maybe so, though protagonism and antagonism are matters of perspective, such that criticism accusing of antagonism is itself perhaps similarly subjective. Therefore would a protagonistic commentary be more reasonable? No, but maybe I should try to be less antagonistic anyhow, so thanks for your feedback.

What? Are you seething about men working full time to provide for their families? Are you comparing financially supporting your wife and kids to paying a prostitute? Is the sole reason for working and supporting your family to have your wife bang you? And most women work too. Is she working to get laid? Or like, you know, important things like housing and childcare?

Women are by and large not settling down with men making comparable income. If I was seething, it was at the normalized dismissal of men's labor in your assertion that sex work essentially involves a victim and an oppressor. It reminds me of how if a husband was staying at home not earning and claimed he had no money to leave he would be called a parasite bum, while a woman would be said to be suffering financial abuse. It is the double standards that wear on me!

Why do you differentiate between trad and non trad? And how is this not supposed to be mean spirited and angry and antagonizing?

Well, if a woman enjoys and respects a boyfriend / husband / fling as a leader, and as a man, then that man can feel pride as a man and as a leader. However women who politically dislike men leading will contentious and quarrelsome, envious and ungrateful, even if desiring chivalrous gestures. It makes sense men don't want to pay money to people who openly despise them for being men, or feel entitled to being treated as reparations for "the patriarchy."

And here you are comparing getting treated to a few dates as “covert sex work”. Explain how this is not antagonizing nor agitated nor hostile... How many women do you know are getting lavished with gifts and money by random men? Or do you mean a dinner date at Applebees or something?

I think the first items given are symbolic and small, the big ones are family pedigree, family wealth & connections, education levels & ranks, income, home ownership, lifestyle, etc. like ability for man to provide for woman to stay home and raise kids. Those are reasonable, but certainly financial standards. Also issues like the quality of car a man has... reasonable but covertly asset-based dating. How many women are happy dating men earning adequate but lesser amounts than themselves, in jobs with lesser status? So the dating expenses are symbolic.

How tf is this not meant to be antagonizing?

The last quote is an appeal to reason, an appeal to non-polarized sense that "the end is near," that the liberal zeitgeist is leading to places that should frighten us, like legalized widespread prostitution as normal economic route to pay for room & board, college, etc.

[–]PracticalControl21791 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AutomatShop1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, sorry I didn't think those were serious points:

compare a wife, homemaker, and mother to a prostitute

Never! We are talking about women who are not dating for marriage, monogamous family formation.

insist that the man supporting her is doing it to get laid.

What? Of course men shouldn't get married in am effort to get laid! Or do you mean that men who would support their girlfriends financially if their girlfriend was just a friend who dated other men and not them? No? Why would men want to spend their money / time / efforts on dating women who do not have romantic interest in him? And aside from specific insular, often religious communities... most people do not wait for marriage so dating does imply an undertone of sexuality. However whatever each person feels is valid but it is good to be expressive and self-accepting.

...?

[–]PracticalControl21791 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]AutomatShop1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you did repeatedly compare homemakers to prostitutes and a man who provides for his family to Johns.

I repeatedly DENIED your uncited (and unfounded?) claims that I made denigrating comparisons of homemakers or mothers or husbands to prostitutes or sex-work clients.

I did however claim modern secular "dating for fun" is very prostitution-esque.

It is simply immature to simultaneously claim to represent the best interest of sex workers while ignoring the many outspoken women who want to reduce criminalization and stigma.

I suppose it is better for youbto degrade me so that these sex workers have a few moments free from your torments, so they can breath, I'll take your lightning if it saves the women from your jealous rage!

I imagine you are extremely repressed based on your behavior so I encourage you to begin your mental health journey at any age. You may want to look into codependency and learning how tonself-individuate more so you can find your own sense of sexuality.

I assume you have mental barriers to your sexuality due to codependency, so I think addressing your deeper childhood maladaptive patterns of thinking will enable you to feel more, and more shamelessly, which will automatically enable better interoreception which will help unlock better access to shameless self-exploration which will germinate hope in your soul which will heal your heinous man-hating malady.

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I can speak from personal experience on this, my idea of an ideal relationship would be where two people are each others firsts, I truely believe it's a beautiful thing, and I had hoped that I would be able to have a relationship like this, however in my country (Scandinavia) people lose their "v" at a much younger age than most other countries, and hookup culture is so widespread that it honestly seemed like it was impossible to achive such a relationship, not to mention the stigma around being a "v" in my country, so I ended up getting together with my GF.

I don't regret it, altough if I had felt that such a realtionship was possible, I would have waited, I'm still more "conservative" than most (I really don't like casual sex/hookups/serial dating) but it is sadly pretty close to impossible in my country to have an ideal realtionship.

Like maybe some experience would be attractive to men and lead to a smoother relationship

I really don't think that you should do it for the sole purpose of getting experience, for me, knowing my GF has had sex with someone else just for "experience" would be something that would seriously make consider breaking up (knowing they reduced somehting so intimate and special to nothing more than practice and a temporary good feeling). And I do think that the vast majority of men would prefer it if their GF/Wife was a "v" before they met, it really just gives a sepcial connection knowing you are their first (or ideally each others first)

I don't know what country you are from or what the customs are therem but I would say that if the ideal relationship is possible, then wait.

[–]RikardoShillyShally1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]MistyMaiselPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (54 children) | Copy Link

Some women do want casual sex, many do not, the quality of the man here is irrelevant.
Women don't like dating liars, it's true. I'm not sure how this will be solved by escorts for reasons we'll arrive at.
No, they don't. Not wanting to fuck someone isn't the same as despising them. Among my reasons to despise another human, them having sex or not isn't on the list. Not even the bottom of the list.

No, I do not think you should visit escorts. Per example, if I knew a man visited escorts, I would despise him, I would not wish to date him, and he would become completely unfuckable and unlovable in my eyes. And, most women wouldn't want a relationship with him from that point forward.

And I'm sure you're thinking, sure, but I don't have to tell her or I could just lie. And that's true, you could...if you want to be a terrible person who has a relationship based entirely on lies that knows their partners would despise the real them. If you want to be loved and fucked based on a lie, you can do that. And may god have mercy on your soul for doing that to yourself and especially for doing that to another person.

So no to basically all your questions. A man who has sex with prostitutes is not relationship or sex material, period, full stop. And if a man ghosts me after we're intimate, I give him props for playing the long con...just like he can give me props when I drag his name through the streets for his shitty behavior. Prostitutes are much worse than bitching online. Frankly, I think anyone who frets about a lack of sex is pretty pathetic. Similar to children crying about not having chocolate.

My advice to such men would be:

Most women don't want casual sex, which means you not getting it is not some unique commentary on you. It also suggests the solution is to aim for relationship sex.
Don't lie or pretend. Find someone who actually wants a relationship with you for who you are. Otherwise, they ain't fucking you, they aren't coming from you, they're fucking the mask you put on and their pleasure is entirely derived from fucking a person you aren't and wish you were.
You are not despised for your lack of sex. You may be despised for other things, but likely you aren't despised period. You just aren't magnetic and attractive. You can become magnetic and attractive. So become that and get a relationship.
A lot of this stuff is based on luck and putting yourself in the position to be lucky. So do that as well.

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For body count, nobody is required to divulge that information unprompted and anyone is able to ask a potential partner. If someone doesn’t want the other person to know, they can (and should) refuse to answer. If they lied about it (male or female) it’s immoral.

Then there is nothing wrong with a guy not divulging if he has sex with a prostitutes.

It is easy to tell when someone is wearing makeup. It’s not deceptive if you know appearance enhancers are being used, but even if you disagree there is a huge difference between lying by omission (not telling them you don’t actually look like this [even tho it should be implied and verbally saying it is unnecessary]) and straight up lying. The second one is worse.

Its easy to tell for you becuase you look at makeup a lot of see how its applied and used, when you dont its hard. Also just like how filters and editing can give young women unrealistic expectations of what women should look like, its done a similar thing to men wherein a lot of them simply cannot imagine any given woman without makeup and made them unable to really see through the different techniques women use on their face.

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[–]MistyMaiselPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If you think make-up and flattering posing is the same as hiding that you fuck prostitutes, I don't know what to tell you. But her make-up and posture are not going to give you an STD nor a sexual experience from a person that sees woman as fuckdolls. So let's start at that.

Body count is a much better example, and I think if a man indicates he cares about that, yes, she should be forthcoming about that. And if she doesn't want to, she should either end things or give him the opportunity to end things. Most men do not care about body count. Most women do care about you not fucking prostitutes.

You aren't being manipulated, good sir. She's not lying. The fact you don't know what she looks like without make up isn't the same as you not knowing she's wearing make up. Just like you not knowing what she really looks like without a good angle is not the same as you not knowing she's posing. It's a fucking picture, of course she's posing.

The same cannot be said about fucking prostitute which most men do not do.

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[–]superduperthankyou1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I get it. I'd agree that an ugly man/woman with a long term partner is seen as more attractive because of the partner's extra vetting. The info might be "he/she might be well connected/has money/is a doctor or lawyer/just such a kind, funny person their looks don't matter/etc". I've met a woman who isn't the most conventionally attractive person but has a trophy boyfriend.. people will ask subtly why they're together and she's a Harvard educated doctor while he does standup comedy once a month.

yeah, it isn't a rational choice in terms of getting the right partner, but it's an ego thing. I've seen men intentionally go after a girl even if she's taken because she seems more desirable if other men want her, it's like a sport to them. They want to prove they're the most attractive person in the group

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[–]MistyMaiselPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A: Most women aren't having casual sex with someone else, so their rejection of you for it is not a commentary on you anymore than it was on all the other guys. They're just not casual sex people. Most people don't have casual sex. It's a very small pool, vanishingly even.

B: Because he's done something disgusting to most women, demonstrated he does not see sex as special, demonstrated he sees sex as about him and his pleasure. He's degraded himself beyond recognition of being worthy of love with a single act in the eyes of, I would say, a significant majority of women.

Let's put it this way, you know how when they ask men if they think it's ok for women to do porn they say yes? And then if you ask them if they'd want their daughter or girlfriend to do porn they say no? If you ask women if they think men should be allowed to see sex workers, a lot will say yes (girl power or some shit). But if you ask them if they'd want their son or their man to see them, the answer is an equally emphatic no.

Supporting something existing and wanting it within ten miles of you are entirely different things.

[–]Intelligent-Insight1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A: Right, if a given woman never had it, that's a different type of rejection. It shouldn't be personal, it's not that she is rejecting you, it's just a reminder that women are rejecting you (if they are of course, and not just her). But I'm not so sure that most women never had casual sex, last I googled, I'm pretty sure way more than a half said they had casual sex. Didn't somebody link some study a couple years ago in this sub reporting that 70-75% of women between 18-22 had casual sex?

B: Is having sex disgusting? I'm confused. What part of what he did is disgusting? Two consenting adults having sex makes them unworthy of love? And I'm not saying it shouldn't or that it's wrong, I'm just trying to clarify what exactly you mean. Isn't it better that instead of playing some girl who probably wants more he has sex with a girl who gets exactly what she expects and isn't hurt?

Right, I understand the emotion here, but don't understand where it comes from. Men's behavior in your example is clear - it's ok for women to do whatever they want, but many men are turned off by women who were too available for other men and touched too many dicks. There's no contradiction here or of this example with other things we see. It's different with women. Those same women don't really care about the number of women men sleep with (or at least we never hear those men complain about consequences and we do know that women prefer good and experienced lovers, not just enthusiastic). So what makes sex with workers different? Clearly, men who were or are players also slept with most women for their own pleasure, but women still go for them (which is why they are players).

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[–]MistyMaiselPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you think I think lying isn't efficient and effective in the short term, sir?

The problem with lying is moral and ethical primarily. It is effective or people would not do it.

However, like all moral and ethical failings, it becomes a massive liability in the long-term as is obvious here. Eventually, you're going to lie your way into a relationship with someone you actually like and actually want to trust you and actually want decency and goodness for.

And on that day, and yes, that day almost always comes because life is a tragicomedy. You will be well and truly fucked from lying. Because you'll look into those wide eyes of love and know that she doesn't really know the real you. She doesn't really love the real you. She loves your lies. And worse, the person you actually love...you've lied to. You've mistreated and abused their trust.

You have to be a proper sociopath to not be eaten alive by this shit. And then that probably means you're going to tell her at some point, because you probably are not a sociopath. And there's a good chance with something like this, she leaves or if not, never looks at you the same way again. She may stay, you may still have a relationship, but you'll never have that whole-hearted trust you could have had being honest.

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[–]MistyMaiselPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

White lies are telling someone that their casserole is good when it isn't so as to not hurt their feelings. It usually occurs when asked or in a context where you would be expected to say something kind. And, frankly, it is done for their feelings, not yours.

This is not the case in the appearance situation presented. Nor would it be dastardly to lie to preserve another person's feelings. That's not why men lie about fucking prostitutes, you aren't concerned at all about her feelings in the first place. Just your own.

The idea lying about this would be a white lie, madone.

If you don't think the woman you're approaching is special, again, I dunno what to tell you expect god, to be in your brain must be a nightmare. You're meant to develop some feelings before you try to bed a woman, go back up to my list. I'm sorry if you have to lie to get sex, maybe consider it's not worth all that.

[–]RahLytPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Lol so you not going to answer? Who are you to decide what is a benefit to them?

White lies are telling someone that their casserole is good when it isn't so as to not hurt their feelings. It usually occurs when asked or in a context where you would be expected to say something kind. And, frankly, it is done for their feelings, not yours.

Ok...

This is not the case in the appearance situation presented. Nor would it be dastardly to lie to preserve another person's feelings. That's not why men lie about fucking prostitutes, you aren't concerned at all about her feelings in the first place. Just your own.

I gave you a specific example...

If you don't think the woman you're approaching is special, again, I dunno what to tell you expect god, to be in your brain must be a nightmare.

Lol Why would I think the woman I'm approaching is special? I don't know her lol.

Please break it down on how you reach your conclusion about my mind. Thanks

You're meant to develop some feelings before you try to bed a woman, go back up to my list.

Says who? Who are you to define how I or anyone else should live?

I'm sorry if you have to lie to get sex, maybe consider it's not worth all that.

Lol why is not worth it? Also that's your assumption.

[–]MistyMaiselPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Everyone makes judgements about what is beneficial to others. Generically, we put out people who are on fire, we protect them from being mugged, we protect them from rape, murder, etc. We give them cookies when they're sad. We cannot capital k know, but we can little k know that when we lie about our record with prostitutes, we are not behaving in their best interests.

***

And I answered you. Lying about prostitutes is not a white lie, it's about preserving your image, not sparing their feelings from unnecessary pain.

***

You should only be approaching women you think are special in case you missed that.

Happily, you approach women you don't care about or think are special and lie to them about being special. Your mind is a nightmare of evil and likely insecurity. Hypothetically.

***

Because you have to hurt another person to get it. Keep up. Very little in life is worth damaging another human in order to obtain.

[–]RahLyt2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Everyone makes judgements about what is beneficial to others

Sure how does that make it ok? You have very good rationalization skills.

And I answered you. Lying about prostitutes is not a white lie, it's about preserving your image, not sparing their feelings from unnecessary pain.

I'm aware this was what OP was speaking about, but I didn't mention prostitution once.

Personally if I'm 5 years in, I'd rather be ignorant about her past promiscuity. Bringing that up 5 years later would just make us both unhappy and break up.

My point is I'm pretty sure there's women out there who see things my away about prostitution.. either way I don't care that much.

My point was about lying in general.

You should only be approaching women you think are special in case you missed that.

I understood what you said. It just doesn't make sense. So are women special based on their appearance? If I don't know them how would I find them special? (Life is not a movie).

Happily, you approach women you don't care about or think are special

Lol how would I care about them if I don't know them? Do you care about me?

Your mind is a nightmare of evil and likely insecurity. Hypothetically

Woooh you should write this character you have in your mind about me, I'm sure it will come out great.

Because you have to hurt another person to get it.

Haha decide, so lying to people is to their benefit or to hurt them? Idk how telling someone is special or unique can hurt them? Please help me here.

Very little in life is worth damaging another human in order to obtain.

How am I hurting them? Is it the sex or telling them they are unique? Thank you so much.

[–]Aafan_BarbarroMan [score hidden] 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Aafan_BarbarroMan [score hidden] 1 year ago (6 children) | Copy Link

This might be a shocking reveal, but not everyone has the luxury of being themselves. Some of us are born flawed and we learn to mask those flaws like autism to the best of our ability to fit a little bit better. It gets hard to see where does the border between fake and real lies.

Of course I would accept that, my real me is not worthy of anything.

Who else would be paying for sex if not those that lack it? It's not the man in the relationship running after he got laid with a girlfriend for a second round. It's not the man who can easily fuck for free.

I am telling you again that distinction is not meaningful and serves only your own virtue signalling. There is no adult virgin or sexless man who gets and stays there without being flawed in some way. Despising that flaw itself that goes along with virginity or seeing virginity as flaw makes fuck all difference, they are linked together.

[–]MistyMaisel-4 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Everyone has the choice to be themselves. You are allowed, you just don't want the consequences, which is cowardly, possibly intelligent if you are quite awful. It's not hard at all, become the mask. Be that for real. Never let it off and it is who you are. The problem is that men don't really want to be these things, they just want to fake it long enough to take advantage of women.

Actually, most men who do that are in relationships or can fuck around. It's not mostly hapless virgins seeing prostitutes. Do with that what you will. But again, I don't despise them because they cannot get laid, I despise them for using a prostitute.

It's meaningful to anyone with a brain. We do agree, being sexless is likely a result of being too flawed for fuckability. I despise that flaw/s, not them being unfuckable. They are, but despising a disease does not require you to despise a symptom of it.

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I never said that at all. I acknowledged a reality that some women do casual sex, but not many. And if you approach all women like they are like this, you shouldn't be surprised you fail or hurt by this lack of success.
I don't care if he's sexually satisfied. If he's thinking like that he can hang, a lack of discipline of yourself is always pathetic and disgusting, especially when you harm others with it. And frankly, many men have tried to use me this way, none succeeded. Seduction is a woman's art more often. Your lack of sexual discipline won't be solved by prostitutes, it'll just be changed and darkened.
Having trouble getting a romantic relationship with a woman (sex may or may not be involved) isa symptom of whatever the real red flag is. It points at the real red flag. And it's not because we want what others have necessarily, it's because what is unfuckable is universally unfuckable. The fact other women haven't fucked you is usually just the nail in the coffin of the opinion we already formed on you.

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It’s a spectrum not a line. I think you don’t understand this as well as you think you do. 😊

What about sugar babies? You take them out and agree to financial support. A connection is often required for the lady to be willing, but so is money.

And now what about a girl I meet “normally” who is a bit of a gold digger? I take her on nice dates and give her gifts and she is willing. But without the gifts and dates she isn’t willing.

Rare is the relationship where material goods don’t matter at all.

It’s a sliding scale between material compensation and physical/emotional connection. Many types of prostitution include physical/emotional connection, and many types of “normal” relationships involve material compensation.

I guess I’m asking where is the line, and why is one side of it and one good? To me it seems arbitrary. Judging people based on arbitrary lines is generally not admirable!

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I don't think there's such thing as a gross loser woman who has no options besides gross loser men except for a very very small minority of women who aren't statistically relevant. Most women will have average men in their dating pool simply because men are less selective than women and women are almost always universally more desirable than men.

But in any case, I'm not talking about women at all. I'm pointing out you're asking the questions you do because you're too attractive to even encounter a dude who's too ugly for casual sex. If I had to guess, you're probably upper middle class, with attractive female friends, an attractive partner, and your entire social group is other people who are conventionally attractive. The only time you'd ever encounter unattractive men is as strangers on the street. Therefore, you can't possibly know what their dating lives are like. You're not even on the same planet.

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No society wants men to stop committing sexual violence and literal homicide against sex workers at a much higher rate than the general population because a bunch of men don’t even see them as human. Society wants men to stop sex trafficking human beings. Society wants men to stop committing crimes. Society wants people addicted to drugs and/or homeless to not compound their issues by feeling like they have to sell their bodies to men who based on many studies have dark triad personality traits.

This whole “women will those their leverage” shit never stops being fucking comical on this platform by the same types of MRA/RP dudes saying it. 99% of women don’t want men that fuck hookers. Nobody knows what you’re talking about at all. You’re acting like dudes who fuck hookers are prizes being lost here—it’s pathetic.

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It’s mainly women seeing it from their own perspective and already have a negative gender bias of men. Most women see scenarios of men purchasing sex as men purchasing access to women’s bodies instead of just a man simply paying for a service that sex worker is offering. So in this case, no matter who’s consenting, the man is always the perpetrator. In reality most sex workers are independent and will screen out their clients, so it’s a possibility you can get rejected by a sex worker, same way any one with a business can reject anyone service.

There are caveats where the sex workers could not be consenting due to instances of human trafficking. This is a valid concern IMO. I’ve heard instances of girls as young as 13 being sold off to do sex work. Another valid concern is women using sex work to fund their addictions. However in our current day (at least in the US), most sex workers are not all drug addicts or victims of human trafficking. But this is why I would also suggest men who are seeking out sex workers to screen out the women as well.

Some men will even find sex work as a much safer option. It’s why I do not judge men who seek out sex workers. Some men are in high positions, not at the restaurant you work at, where sleeping with a coworker is a no-go. Not only that, they are overworked with little to no social life and are also single. I would understand why these men would seek out sex workers. Some men also are of high status and casual encounters with random women might not be the safest route if they are just seeking casual sex. If sex workers offer anything, it’s discretion (unless you’re Diddy or Donald Trump lol). And, they are also really good and skilled at what they do. Sex workers can offer an experience most men would not get with other women.

Sex work is as old as time itself and just like the women of today, the women back had the same issues with it as well. As mentioned earlier, I understand the valid concerns but the men aren’t rubbing their hands together at thought of having sex with an underage human trafficking victim or a drug addict. We know it’s a dangerous profession, and it will continue to remain dangerous until it’s legalized and the sex workers are offered protection.

TL;DR:

Getting women’s opinion/approval for purchasing sex work is stupid. Despite the many reasons why you would see one you’ll always be the bad guy. Our founding fathers and ancestors been fucking sex workers for as long as the earth existed and it still resulted in them getting married, having kids and you being born. Do it at your own risk though.

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Insulting them in this case would not make any change their mind, nor serve any purpose to the discussion that was happening. It was purely to insult.

If they feel insulted they are being manipulated. Someone else is able to affect their emotional state.

It is what society in general says.

Who says this, who on society? Your neighbours? Your friends?

This one woman, who is a powerful and old politician, is saying the same.

She's so powerful that I don't give a flying fuck about her opinion lol.

So you can't use the defense of "oh it's just middle school bullies that say that"

It has the same value if it's said by a kid or a grown woman to me, I don't care about their opinion about my life.

You talk about being manipulated, but that is literally you being manipulated by a prostitute.

Lol. This is just arguing for arguing sake. If that makes sense you're being manipulated by any service or transaction you ever did/used.

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Some do want to, and just because others don’t doesn’t make it wrong.
Correct. It’s the dishonesty that’s the problem.
Wrong. It’s just that the same factors that tend to make a man sexless are the same factors that tend to make him unappealing as a dating prospect. Women don’t “despise” these men, they just aren’t interested in dating them because they’re unattractive and/or have poor social skills. Sex with prostitutes won’t increase his SMV/RMV. That’s like saying “men despise women who can’t get a relationship, so women like that should pay someone to pose as their boyfriend.” It’s not going to change the underlying factors that caused her to be chronically single.

I personally am against prostitution, sure there are some sex workers who do it willingly but it can be harder than you’d think to know that, and knowing a guy had paid for sex would definitely raise a red flag.

I also wouldn’t be interested in dating a guy who has a long history of promiscuity with women who aren’t sex workers, since we just wouldn’t be compatible. But nothing objectively wrong with it if he’s honest, nor do I care if someone has had a few hookups or a brief “hoe phase.” I’m talking about guys who have slept around most of their adult life and just recently decided they want to “settle down.” That’s a no for me and a lot of non-promiscuous women, but most formerly promiscuous women will not care.

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Would you ladies here prefer if a man strictly had causal sex with sex workers

Not dating that guy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7533589/

Here’s some highlights of the meta study of men who visit prostitutes

“higher likelihood of committing infidelity (Jones and Weiser, 2014), and sexual risk-taking (Dubas et al., 2017) that collectively signal heightened investment in short-term mating. Individuals expressing higher levels of the Dark Tetrad personality dimensions are also more likely to engage in aggression (Paulhus et al., 2018), sexually coercion (Koscielska et al., 2019), and criminal behavior (e.g., vandalism, illegal substance use, and assault; Edwards et al., 2017; Pfattheicher et al., 2019). Deficits in affective empathy (i.e., a diminished capacity to feel the emotions of another) have also been linked to higher levels the Dark Tetrad traits (Jonason and Krause, 2013; Jonason et al., 2013; Sest and March, 2017; Heym et al., 2019). It has been argued that to feel empathy for another, it is necessary to perceive that others have minds like our own (i.e., mentalization). Failing to attribute minds to others can result in not seeing other people as fully human (i.e., dehumanization), which may facilitate interpersonal aggression and violence (Fiske, 2009; Farley et al., 2017). These dynamics may be especially apparent among those with elevated levels of Dark Tetrad traits (Bastian, 2019).”

“display a preference for having sex with a variety of partners, as well less relational and committed sex (Xantidis and McCabe, 2000; Farley et al., 2017). Furthermore, male clients of prostitution express more permissive attitudes toward extramarital sex”

“Male clients have further been shown to engage in more sexual risk-taking and have a higher likelihood of acquiring and transmitting sexually transmitted illnesses than non-buyers (Ward et al., 2005; Schei and Stigum, 2010; Pan et al., 2011; Ompad et al., 2013; Rich et al., 2018; Seidu et al., 2019). Compared to men who have never bought sex, male clients also display less empathic accuracy (i.e., accurately inferring the thoughts and feelings of another) toward female sex workers than non-clients (Farley et al., 2011, 2017). Purchasing sex has also been associated with rape myth acceptance among men (Cotton et al., 2002), as well as the perpetration of intimate partner violence (Raj et al., 2008; Decker et al., 2009), sexually coercive behavior (Farley et al., 2011, 2017), and rape against non-prostituting women (Monto and McRee, 2005; Jewkes et al., 2006).”

Hard no.

[–]Main_Aside_3072Purple Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Just FYI for everybody reading this, I've been researching some studies mentioned here and most of the negative results are with "outside prostitution" (street girls) while "indoor prostitution" (escorts) don't have the same high results.

Also in some studies when they talk about "men who pay for sex" they're using men who hire sex workers several times a week, which at that point I do find it way too much.

Some of those studies are pretty interesting but they seems to obvious (if you spend thousands of dollars a week in sex workers, I do think you have a problem, regardles of your sex or gender).

Regardless, as somebody who thinks promiscous girls are unattractive and the sexual past absolutely matters, I can't blame women who also are uncomfortable when a man's sexual past looks like this.

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It is. The reason men struggle is because they go for casual. The less casual the higher the chance of success. That doesn’t mean you’ll have absolute success but yes the odds greatly improve. Just consider a man makes an online dating profile and messages 50 women for casual sex, just a hey wanna come over and have sex vs messaging the same 50 women for a relationship, so asking them on a date and stating his intentions are for a long term relationship. Which man will get more positive and receptive responses? Again we all understand that even in seeking for a relationship a man will still be rejected by some women but again his odds off success will be much higher than if he is just asking women for some casual sex.

Men need to simply get over the casual sex thing. It isn’t something men should expect it isn’t reasonable to expect it.

Once you understand the it’s unreasonable and approach dating in a more serious manner you’ll do better. A man doesn’t need a lot of sexual experience to find a partner you have no idea how many men are married to or in an LTR with their 1st,2nd or 3rd partner. Most men do not have a high body count

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No, there's no projection here, only the objective description of reality. Whether or not you mean to be transactional is not the same thing as being in fact transactional.

I don't know if I have a problem with that, I never had that type of sex to the best of my knowledge. But again, how do you define desire? People sleep with other people and don't really desire them all the time - they desire companionship, gifts, attention etc. Most men never get to sleep with women just because women desire them. It's a fact. Think about it - there are men who match on tinder, send a quick message and hook up shortly after. But that almost never happens. Most men are not desired like that. And with that said, desiring someone's money and sleepin with them in exchange for that is not conceptually different from desiring their commitmen etc.

Traficking is irrelevant here, I'm talking about the west and most women who are in that line of work here are in it because they chose it. Abuse as a child is irrelevant here because that same argument could be applied to one of the traditional relationships just as well.

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did you just try to hold me accountable for a complete stranger's argument?

Who is "y'all" in that sentence? Women?

Are you seriously asking that ALL WOMEN "decide on one argument" together?!?

Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

and since it seems like you are serious:

No, I don't know why a different person, i have never met nor spoken to in my entire life said a thing I didn't say.

No, all women can not all get together before responding to questions on reddit and agree on one singular approach. I know this may truly blow your mind, but women are actually distinct human beings with our own opinions, beliefs, and experiences. We do not all agree.

While any individual may not know who is or is not hooking up around them, as it is usually covert, enough of us have or know people who have hooked up with coworkers to understand that it is a thing that definitely happens.

I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN but I can conclude (based upon life experience, available data, and understanding han communication) that her telling you to "look" was not meant literally (as in "use your eyes to view this") because most things people say are not literal. She was saying "Just consider this well-known phemenon that most people are aware occurs" and likely assuming you'd understand that.

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average people hookup all the time (yes, they do, if you've ever worked in any office with a lot of people you'll know people have sex with each other)

Where the heck do you work? I figure this might often be the case at level-1 slime jobs, but where I work, everyone is very career oriented, mostly married, and don't mingle that often.

Women don't like dating men who pretend to be serious to get in their pants... "I don't know where you got this from but it's not true."

Really? Your arguing that women like it when men pretend to be looking for something serious, when the real goal is to get in their pants? That's... bizarre, honestly. Mind boggling to me.

Also not true. The same reason that makes you sexless, is the same reason women don't like you.

That doesn't actually mean anything, your claim didn't disprove his point. If there's a reason why women despise you that isn't directly the fact that you don't have sex, and that reason they don't like you also makes you sexless, then they still despise sexless men. Unless I'm misunderstanding?

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Men seek prostitution for different reasons. Some, yes, for variety, some just because they can’t get it anywhere else, and some because they’re into some thing different that they can’t find any other way to experience. If they are using prostitutes for variety yes, they probably won’t stop, but they would also be more likely to cheat as well. If they’re using prostitutes because that’s the only way they can experience sex then once they get in a relationship, they would stop. If they are into something unusual that they just want to get out their system, then it’s better. They get it out of their system before you get in a relationship then they’ll know if that’s something they need to get off and if so, they need to seek out a specific type of person or if they just wanted to try it and once they’ve done it, they’re good. But the core of this is I don’t think prostitution is the problem. There are men that just love variety and if they can’t use prostitution, they’ll look to cheat so it’s not an issue of prostitution. It’s an issue of there’s a type of man who just likes variety and will do anything, even if he’s in a happy relationship with a partner, he loves to experience variety and it’s not the fault of the sex workers.

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Title	Should average men complement their dating life with escorts?
Author	MentalBend9446
Upvotes	32
Comments	1261
Date	October 9, 2024 5:59 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1fzxqlg/should_average_men_complement_their_dating_life/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/should-average-men-complement-their-dating-life.1532539 https://theredarchive.com/post/1532539

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