Why do men take such interest in avoiding child support, but so little interest in avoiding pregnancy?

LeJacquelope · 2021-09-05T17:43:40+00:00

Very good point. I occasionally hear about male birth control in MRA circles but not nearly as much as I hear about the other issues. We do need better male contraception. But condoms will always be the best option because they also block STDs. We need better condoms.

Heinz37_sauce · 2021-09-05T21:17:47+00:00

Men have three main “options” for avoiding fatherhood:
1. Abstinence 2. Condoms 3. Vasectomy

The first two of these “options” are complained about regularly, including on PPD.

ashpr0ulx · 2021-09-05T17:47:59+00:00

there are some men that will get squeamish and uncomfortable if you mention you want kids someday but two hours later they try to convince you that a condom isn’t necessary.

i have nothing to add to the conversation other than: shit’s wild.

Lonely_23_1997 · 2021-09-05T22:16:00+00:00

This is something I’ve always wondered too. Especially to the ones who are anti-abortion. They tell women to close their legs to avoid getting pregnant, they’re anti-child support yet get irate if you suggest they get a vasectomy and they never push for other male birth control options.

BraveNewNight · 2021-09-05T19:46:06+00:00

Condoms are a near perfect contraceptive that both parties can bring to the table. When it comes to avoiding pregnancy, both parties have equal ability to say no if they're uncomfortable with the level of contraceptive involved.

The reason why men talk about avoiding not child support, but all investment in an unplanned pregnancy at all, is because from the point of conception, with current law, a man has no rights while a woman has all of the rights when it comes to what happens with the pregnancy and later the baby.

There's little imbalance when it comes to birth control other than the flavor of it - a condom puts pretty much everyone on equal footing, and the risks of all other means of birth control are known, and no amount of education will stop poor stupid people from having unprotected sex or forgetting to take their contraceptive.

On the other hand, post-conception, current law is an absolute hellscape for an unwilling biological father.

velvetunderground111 · 2021-09-05T21:14:12+00:00

Because sex is pleasure and raising children is displeasure.

rustjelqing2 · 2021-09-05T17:50:33+00:00

I doubt it's child support in and of itself that's the problem, but how child support is calculated in the US. In most countries child support isn't calculated based on the income of the (paying) parent, but of the costs of raising a child.

This leads me to believe that men don't actually care about preventing pregnancy, they only care about dodging the consequences of pregnancy.

This is a slightly interesting statement. I've seen it proposed that the right of abortion doesn't entail termination of the child, but that it's just a consequence of today's abortion. That if a fetus transfer into a surrogate or an artifical womb becomes possible then that will result in the mother paying child support in case she opts to abort, but the father doesn't.

Any time I've seen that idea aired I've seen women suggest this is somehow wrong and that in that case it wouldn't be right that they should pay child support. That made me think the same as you, but about women.

rediitbuju · 2021-09-05T18:12:06+00:00

You are one brave human to bring this topic here.

HappilyMrs · 2021-09-05T18:39:21+00:00

Because avoiding pregnancy for them means wearing condoms or not having PIV. It's not pleasing and requires sacrifice. Until there is an easy male reversible contraceptive (something like Vasalgel), men will not want to sacrifice their pleasure for the slim chance of a conception or a child that is carried to term. So given that they dont want to make that sacrifice, or are willing to take a risk, it's easier to kick the ball into the long grass and try to avoid child support should there be consequences.

Reisiluu · 2021-09-05T21:42:18+00:00

men don't actually care about preventing pregnancy, they only care about dodging the consequences of pregnancy

Yeah no shit. It's because they can't get pregnant.

Sonic_The_Hamster · 2021-09-05T17:54:55+00:00

It comes down to the simple fact that a man has no decision on whether or not he becomes a father. If men had any say in whether a woman got an abortion or not then you could complain about this. But the moment sex ends men have no choice on whether that child is born.

This means that should they actually want a child it can be taken from them and should they not want a child or can be forced on them but it doesn't work the other way. So basically what being said is that money or a child can be taken from men without their consent.

The fact that tm the law doesn't include them in the decision is all the reason they need to say the law shouldn't include them in tune cost of the decision.

Both had sex without contraception but only one gets to make decisions that affect both for the rest of their lives. That in itself isn't fair at all.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2021-09-05T23:56:24+00:00

Tbh once men get contraception it would be awesome

Men get the security of not getting a girl pregnant (and hopefully still uses condoms to prevent stis). No baby trapping!

And for people like me in established relationships, both partners on contraception means that if one method fails the other method is a failsafe. The odds of them failing at the same time would be very very small

FreierSteinkopf · 2021-09-05T19:21:41+00:00

The pill for men was invented but had so bad effects on the male body that it didnt got to the market. So what else is there for men besides condoms? I would to see vasalgel to come to market but right now there arent good alternatives. Complaining about it wont achieve much just like comaplining that a cure for all STDs doesnt exist.

Many people especially women point out the negatives of pregnancy and many of them are correct. However currently you have all the control whether you want to keep it or not (besides texas lol) while the father has no say in this at all so its a priviledge too. Obviously many men see this as unfair and want atleast the option to not pay for the child. She should be able to abort the child at the same time.

EDIT: Scrolling through the comments I see other guys mentioning vasalgel too. Lets pray for it brothers.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2021-09-05T20:28:39+00:00

Huh?

If there was a male BC pill equivalent to the female one i'd be on that shit stat.

I don't want a permanent solution like a vasectomy, because i want kids.

I use condoms exclusively unless the woman is on hormonal BC and STI free. Even then i pull out.

Soooo uh... How is it men's fault that the government refuses to FDA approve vasalgel or whatever?

SaBahRub · 2021-09-05T18:55:04+00:00

Like sex, don’t like kids

Sultmaker_9000 · 2021-09-05T20:19:14+00:00

Low risk high reward from an animalistic point of view. State interference is an unnatural interference, which has no effect the lizard brain.

delusionalubermensch · 2021-09-06T00:34:57+00:00

The people fighting against child support are actively being ruined by it. That makes it a more pressing issue to them. There are people fighting for more male contraceptives but the personal urgency isn’t as high as someone who is living in squalor or being threatened with prison due to the unfair conditions of child support laws in this country.

mayoayox · 2021-09-06T01:02:44+00:00

because we love sex and money

yourBlueBoy · 2021-09-06T10:13:20+00:00

It's entirely a woman's choice to get pregnant. The man has no say.

VitalSynthax · 2021-09-06T10:42:36+00:00

Male hormonal birth control sort of exists, and you can access it if you know who to ask, it's just not properly approved yet. It's basically the same thing as female birth control and it's essentially temporary chemical castration.

Problem is that when you crash a woman's testosterone to 15 from 40 it will slightly lower her sex drive and mood. When you take a man's testosterone from 900 to 15 you're almost guaranteed to cause depression, anxiety, zero sex drive and, since men can only produce estrogen by converting testosterone, you're compromising his cardiovascular, neurological and bone health.

This means that alongside the hormonal birth control you'd have to start taking testosterone, which when done orally is liver toxic, so you'd have to inject it intramuscularly roughly every week.

Now I oversimplified the similarities earlier and for male hormonal birth control to be even remotely effective you'd need to use substances with metabolites that stay in the body for almost a year, this would mean that you'd likely be infertile for at least a year after going off and you'd also need to go off the regular testosterone to restore fertility, compromising your health and quality of life for multiple months before being able to conceive.

And even if you were happy to put up with all that, it turns out that it's only effective in roughly 70% of men. If it were that easy we'd have it by now

JumboJetz · 2021-09-05T18:10:58+00:00

No man believes it will happen to them until it happens to them. And when it does they do want a way of backing out because the girl has a way of backing out after she’s pregnant and it doesn’t “seem” fair that men don’t. That’s the mentality I think.

For the record I disagree with it and I think as a society we should do way more to make deadbeat dads pay up. Men in general should support this because guess what, if deadbeat dad doesn’t pick up the tab for raising the kids you know who does? The tax payer. Men that think a woman’s partner should be able to opt out of support are basically volunteering to be what they would term “cucks” to raise another woman’s children.

M4sterDis4ster · 2021-09-05T19:27:20+00:00

If women can have abortion without her partners consent, than I dont really see a problem men not paying child support for a child they dont want.

Women who got pregnant, did they care about protection? No, but they can still choose to abort.

Should men in those cases care about protection? No, if they can avoid child support.

Ihateregistering6 · 2021-09-05T20:18:20+00:00

why don't I ever hear men complain about the lack of male specific birth control options?

I hear them talk about it fairly frequently, but most men know that the reality is that effective birth control for men is really, really hard to do on a purely scientific basis. It's trying to stop one egg, one time a month vs having to stop literally billions of sperm.

A lot of this depends on the guy in question. Every guy I know who was college educated, had career aspirations, etc. was VERY careful about condom use and birth control. A lot of them I knew would insist on using condoms even with women who said they were on BC (or at absolute very least using the pull out method), because it was still a risk, she could be lying, she may have missed a dose, etc.

This leads me to believe that men don't actually care about preventing pregnancy, they only care about dodging the consequences of pregnancy.

It's not that, it's the fact that (even in places where abortion is legal) men have absolutely no options once the woman becomes pregnant. The logic is essentially "if women have the right to decide they don't want a child that they got because they chose to have sex (exclude rape here because that's a separate issue), then men should have the right to decide they want nothing to do with a child that they got because they chose to have sex".

Last question I'd ask is: why in the world would you be having sex with a guy who was so flippant about condom use if you didn't want to get pregnant, especially by him? That seems like a red flag and a half right there.

Resolution437 · 2021-09-05T23:45:34+00:00

I just read a post by someone whose ex poked holes in their condoms because she “just loved him too much”. He had to give up his medical education and enlist in order to support the kid and he could not help but resent his daughter. Those are the stories that get to me. Ambitions, dreams and careers destroyed out of “love”. You get to choose to abandon your child or your future. And dont get me started on having to pay child support for someone conceived by your rapist.

Don’t get me wrong. Jimmy lowlife who just wants to rawdog is another thing entirely. Even though hey, apparently he is not lacking in options. Still, that doesn’t justify that the law basicallytells men to either be absent, or become a wallet with legs.

I get that BC sucks for women. There are no good options. Lose tactile sensation or get your hormones out of whack. Or have a copper spiral that stabs all those who dare to enter. As soon as vasalgel comes out I’ll be all over that shit.

sivarias · 2021-09-06T09:41:13+00:00

Because its an abortion "equivalent".

Birth control does get talked about. It just doesn't get talked about as often as "financial abortion".

Right now, a woman has SOLE rights and responsibility regarding whether a child comes to term. Men do NOT get a say in it at all. I get why, and I'm not here to argue that point. But for having a child, the male decision tree is:

Woo girl -> Have sex -> Her choice -> baby.

Does birth control stop it upstream at the have sex part? Yes. Don't women get to decide at two parts of their tree? Are they the final arbiters of the men's tree? Also yes.

Your entire argument presupposes that abortion and preventative birth control are the same things. Which is laughable and disingenuous in the extreme.

abaxeron · 2021-09-05T20:03:30+00:00

why don't I ever hear men complain about the lack of male specific birth control options?

/r/MensRights has two full pages of search results on Vasalgel alone.

Willow-girl · 2021-09-05T17:55:43+00:00

Sex without a condom feels great.

Paying for the kid you made is a real buzzkill.

Lordaake · 2021-09-05T19:53:17+00:00

They are always discussing abortion laws in the US. Its just a way to keep you guys busy while they rob you of your money and your human rights. The "left" and "right" is also another distraction.

Honestly abortion laws shouldnt even be decided by states. Its an individuals choice wether she wants abortion or not.

Naus1987 · 2021-09-05T20:20:37+00:00

I’m a guy, and I still don’t understand why men abandon their children so easily. I have a nephew who’s father is completely absent. So I end up being the cool uncle male role model, and I absolutely love hanging out with the little champ.

We saw free guy the other day, and it was a blast. Kids are amazing.

LadyM2 · 2021-09-06T01:26:56+00:00

men are just stupid, selfish and toxic creatures.

flapperfemmefatale · 2021-09-05T18:09:15+00:00

If a man isn't talking to a woman about what she'd do with an unwanted pregnancy BEFORE fucking her, I don't feel sorry for him.

If he doesn't like the answer but fucks her anyway, I also don't feel sorry for him.

ToughAnswers · 2021-09-05T18:07:11+00:00

about the lack of male specific birth control options

Scientists have been trying. Hasn't come around yet. It's not like it's available but they're withholding it. The male birth control pill studies stopped because of side effects even worse than the ones women complain about (yet of course it brought on the onslaught of "men are weak". What happened to muh equality...the side effects were WORSE)

Anyway,

Either

A: on demand, unrestricted, free abortions for women paired with an opt out of child support/parenthood for men

OR

B: ban abortion, even more draconian child support laws, and pregnancy support

goneaway2thewind · 2021-09-05T18:15:24+00:00

The men who are having sex and gamin are the ones so horny they can't go without. The best ways to avoid all risks concerning women is going your own way, you don't hear about these men or see them because they remove themselves from the situation. They are the men who ghosted, never pursued, and are inherently invisible.

For the guys who are overwhelmingly sexually driven, their imperative is pleasure, so they are the loud and more visible party to women. They want the pleasure of it in it's entirety. A condom literally filters that. Since they are the least inhibited party (you have to be if you're willing to take risks on women) this leads to the illusion that all men are like that. When really its all the horn dogs are like that. They aren't the people who are considerate of long term consequences.

Stevefr0mYellowstone · 2021-09-05T20:25:24+00:00

I think men would totally be fine with birth control if they had the wide array of options available to women. Right now they can get a vasectomy (painful medical procedure that is hopefully reversable, but no 100% guarantee), and I believe there has been attempts (not sure if its purchasable) via reducing testosterone, which does have a major adverse affect.

There are also of course condoms. Which the red pill strongly encourages (the thought process is never solely rely on the woman's birth control).

Cedo_Alteram · 2021-09-05T20:28:37+00:00

Armchair law is way easier than armchair science.

/thread

yelo777 · 2021-09-05T20:29:54+00:00

I feel like I'm very concerned with wearing a condom during sex, at least with someone new or someone i don't yet trust. Both stds and unwanted pregnancy are the reasons. I even tie up my condom and bring it with me when I leave so she can't steel it (unlikely, but not unthinkable). Having said that, sex without a condom feels much better and it takes some time to put it on, you can lose your groove. That can lead to little interest in using a condom.

Meatheadliftbrah · 2021-09-05T20:47:27+00:00

As a healthcare professional and weightlifter I’d be more than happy to inject testosterone to suppress my sperm production. Unfortunately it’s not legal.

Paranoidexboyfriend · 2021-09-06T02:02:02+00:00

I was always VERY VERY interested in avoiding pregnancy and the child support with it. But sex with a condom on is just terrible. I'd rather just take turns with oral than have sex with a condom on. I only have sex with condoms on with new partners to establish a history of having sex until I knew I could trust them and that they were on the pill or an IUD and responsible about taking it, and would probably get an abortion if I did knock them up. If they weren't on birth control, we probably wouldn't be hooking up for long. And if I had ever decided I didn't want kids at all, I would've gotten a vasectomy for sure.

Thankfully I'm married now and we are expecting our first kid. I haven't fucked with a condom for years upon years and I hope to never go back.

IndependenceSoft3250 · 2021-09-06T03:42:34+00:00

There is a huge conversation there, the birth control tested on men so far has been entirely based on female birth control, and all attempts have directly led to increased suicide rates, and attempted suicide rates in the test groups.

no_user_ID_found · 2021-09-06T07:28:43+00:00

Vasalgel should come available soon. I hope.

humblegarth · 2021-09-06T08:33:22+00:00

Lots of men take an interest in avoiding pregnancy….

daniellederek · 2021-09-06T09:52:31+00:00

I still don't see why conservatives are anti abortion.

We should be totally in favor of it, even go so far as to reccomend it to anyone not financially prepared to look after another child.

superlurkage · 2021-09-06T11:37:26+00:00

Sex and kids are two different things, obviously

WerewolfPleasant · 2021-09-06T13:46:53+00:00

Ya this always frustrated me too, I wish males had better options than just getting their dick snipped or wearing condoms. I would definitely get that needle if I could.

gopher_glitz · 2021-09-06T14:54:39+00:00

One factor is that the ex is blowing the money on herself or worse her shit new boyfriend instead of wellbeing of the kid.

Insidious-Sid · 2021-09-05T19:51:11+00:00

Men don't want to "avoid child support'. Men want reproductive rights and choice about reproduction. Once the semen is in "her body" she gets all of the reproductive choice. Doesn't matter if a condom broke, or she decided unilaterally to go off birth control. Doesn't even matter if they previously agreed they would wait to have kids, or not have them at all.

None of that matters. So of course, men have no point right? Well, I agree. Her body, her decision. And thus, her sole responsibility.

I would love to see a safe birth control option for men. Perhaps using mRNA technology we could "program" men's sperm to be non viable unless "activated" by an enzyme that only he has control over. His body, his choice.

For men, all we have right now that is almost foolproof is vasectomy. "Oh, it's a minor surgery and reversible" the women say. Imagine if you told women that HER only birth control options were severing her Fallopian tubes which is "reversible in most cases"? The feminists would be throwing fits, writhing in the streets like toddlers in a full tantrum.

flakybottom · 2021-09-05T17:56:16+00:00

They are against child support because courts are so skewed in favor of the mom in those cases, even when she is a POS. I've seen so many women use child support for nonsense. My sister is one of them.

EdwardCircumcizehand · 2021-09-05T22:41:57+00:00

The reason there is no male birth control is because men don’t operate like women. We are naturally meant to go through cycles where we don’t produce an egg but men aren’t meant to stop producing sperm

So what happens when these experimental drugs get tested is that there is a significant risk of permanent infertility for men whereas for women, our side effects are what would be found almost naturally if our bodies were being suppressed for some reason, hormonally

The mechanisms by which male and female reproductive abilities function are inherently different from one another with no real correlation between the two. As such, the medications have wildly different outcomes and issues

By birth control, I mean the pill

I-Fail-Forward · 2021-09-05T23:46:12+00:00

The short answer, is that as long as they can make the consequences your problem, they dont care.

Its indicative of the mindset of some men where relationships or interactions with women is all a game to get sex.

Anantha1996 · 2021-09-05T18:14:28+00:00

Well most of the men who suggest the "paying child support for unwanted children" trope as a societal issue are pro-choice. Since women have abortion, they have sole power in deciding if the child should be born and hence believe they should bear sole responsibility.

The pro life types tend to be in favor of men meeting their moral and financial responsibilities or at least that's the position put forward.

Playful_Dig8694 · 2021-09-05T18:43:46+00:00

Puuuuuuuuuhuhuhuhuhahahaha! I used to wrap it, and pull out. Now I simply don’t have sex at all. I’ve had 2 of 4 girlfriends in my life quit birth control after they started dating me. Gtfoh.

Glum_Status94 · 2021-09-05T19:46:00+00:00

men and woman are sad if u want sex then be ready for the consequences after

EstablishmentKooky50 · 2021-09-05T19:52:52+00:00

There are plenty of men complaining about the issue though. It's just that most government funding goes to support research that potentially affects women's wellbeing (prostate cancer vs breast cancer research for instance). And it is not as "easy" to find a reversible solution in our case, without affecting potency as it is in your case. Sure enough though, if our D is looking at our foot all the time, it's kinda sure that no conception will take place.

Interesting thing, that men are more likely to pay child support then women. Men are awarded about 500$ less avg child support per year (5527$ vs 6115$) and women are about 54.6% likely to pay up, while this number is 63.2% in the opposite case. Women are required to pay child support in less then 30% of the cases, while men are required to pay in 53.4% of the cases.

So if someone is "avoiding" paying child support, it's definitely not "men". Let's just be "nice" and say, both genders are having issues paying up what is due.

rickmackdaddy · 2021-09-05T22:17:51+00:00

Question has innate bias. I believe the assertion cannot be proven.

Lonelybuthopeful9 · 2021-09-05T22:54:15+00:00

Because you can get an abortion ?

Appearantly fetuses arent alive so there shouldnt be any problem with it ?

NameGiver0 · 2021-09-05T23:45:15+00:00

Once conceived women can opt out of a baby, men can’t. It’s not rocket science.

FreakRoHawke · 2021-09-06T06:02:02+00:00

I went without a condom only a few times. Everytime I did it was the woman's wish not to take it, not mine. Your belief is quite narrow-minded, no offence. Things are rarely black or white in this world.

AbsolutelyNobody0 · 2021-09-06T08:33:33+00:00

why don't I ever hear men complain about the lack of male specific birth control options?

Because it's not worth complaining about something that you're not even sure CAN be created. It's pretty easy to stop 1 egg being fertilized. How do you stop a billion sperm? And if you CAN do it, how invasive or irreversible will it be? Simply put, there's no point complaining about it.

I often see the argument that men shouldn't have to pay child support for children they don't want, but I don't see much around what men can do to prevent those unwanted children.

These two issues do not logically follow. Not wanting the government to forcibly mandate that a man pays is a separate issue from avoiding having a child in the first place.

I hear women (myself included) complain about hormonal birth control all the time (it can wreak havoc on our bodies), but I've never once heard a man complain about his lack of options for avoiding getting someone pregnant.

See the first paragraph I wrote for why men don't complain. Yet again, you've attempted to dichotomize 2 entirely separate issues. Women's birth control having side effects is a separate issue from the lack of options for men.

Meanwhile, the "paying child support for unwanted children" trope is one that comes up frequently on this sub.

Whether a child is wanted or unwanted is irrelevant to my position that the government shouldn't be forcing it.

I've noticed a lot of men here present birth control as an end all be all, which shows me that those men haven't even taken the time to educate themselves on how female managed birth control (IUD, pill, diaphragm) actually works.

Personally, I'm against messing with hormones unless medically necessary. This means I'm in opposition to the usage of most forms of female birth control. Not that they should be illegal, but more of a personal decision that I wouldn't support.

This leads me to believe that men don't actually care about preventing pregnancy, they only care about dodging the consequences of pregnancy.

Abortion is legal because women want to dodge the consequences of pregnancy. You square that circle and get back to me.

Ian_Campbell · 2021-09-06T08:48:47+00:00

Complaining about a lack of male birth control is absolutely stupid if you understand anything about the male HPTA axis and current mechanisms for trying to affect it. Hormonal options are more damaging and in some regards affecting your overall health and even mind, less reversible than vasectomies. That's why no attempts were approved.

As to your question, jt is cherry picked and circular reasoning by assuming what you are trying to make a case for.

rich_man_88 · 2021-09-06T12:38:01+00:00

Her body her choice, my wallet my choice

just_a_place · 2021-09-05T19:29:24+00:00

Because avoiding pregnancy consists entirely on wearing a condom and beyond that there is zero choice. We cannot force a woman to take a pill, abort, or give the baby for adoption.

Men really only have one option in birth control: Condom. The other option is a vasectomy which is really no option at all since it's like curing cancer by killing the patient.

Liberal_On_Guns · 2021-09-05T18:40:18+00:00

This is pretty out of touch with the male perspective, ngl.

Blaphrodite · 2021-09-05T21:11:32+00:00

If women are to be knocked up and held hostage in Texas. Then a positive paternity test should cost a man 50% of his income.

That’s equality.

Otherwise Texas is sexually exploiting and enslaving women

Big_Dick_Capitalist · 2021-09-05T19:24:45+00:00

The field in terms of rights post-pregnancy between men and women are disproportionate. Men feel robbed when they have no say regarding pregnancy, financial conditions and likewise.

Further, in terms of contraceptive methods, men also receive the short end of the stick. Options are often limited to condoms or a vasectomy. Neither is practical. Even if Women fuck up, there's always the Morning-after pill.

In all fairness, paper abortions should be every man's right, whether the man uses contraception or not. It's easy being on the side of options, no matter how much women disregard pregnancy and contraception, there'll always be options for you to handle a bad situation.

DesperateTraffic3164 · 2021-09-05T18:16:51+00:00

A man should have the right not to support children financially if he does not consent to being a father, regardless of whether they use contraceptives or not, in the same way a woman does not necessarily consent to motherhood just because she is pregnant/

If a woman wants to have a child without a legal father that should be her right to do so, but men should not be forced into fatherhood without consent. It's wrong, and anyone who argues against this is probably a bad person at worst, and hypocritical at best.

ManzBearzPigzIzRealz · 2021-09-05T19:14:55+00:00

Why do women take such interest in abortion, but so little interest in avoiding pregnancy? If women can unilaterally opt out of parenthood, it’s only moral that men should have the same option.

miketrance · 2021-09-05T19:48:11+00:00

Since when do men not talk about their lack of birth control options? Most of the men I knew growing up would have LOVED a male pill. That is literally the end of trapped into pregnancy for a man, and if you can get a male pill or vasalgel men would be in much better control of their own fertility.

I don't know any man who doesn't want this.

Moral_Conundrums · 2021-09-05T19:50:54+00:00

I don't think men have this grand conspiracy to get women pregnant and dip. Men (like most people) are just stupid, don't think ahead enough and take risks they really shouldn't.

Warriorxp7 · 2021-09-05T20:21:30+00:00

I think it is that child support can ruin an unestablished man. Like if i had to be paying child support i know i would starve to death more then likely. The richer once can carry it better than the poor ones. Will agree we need to try not to get them pregnant however if we dont want a kid

Shenaniboozle · 2021-09-05T22:26:46+00:00

Is this a serious question? cause the answer is really easy, you wont like it, but for a lot of men its simply, "someone else's problem."

Whisper · 2021-09-06T02:56:24+00:00

Because men don't complain about being "oppressed" every time the laws of physics or biology have inconvenient consequences for us?

OddChocolate_ · 2021-09-05T19:14:01+00:00

I thought this was a "Red-Pill" aware space? Male birth control was always a point of discussion, especially among MRA and MGTOW. Feminist groups decry the idea of male contraception past condoms and your governments certainly don't want men to hold ultimate power in when children are conceived because it would never happen due to the heinous laws on the books against them. Also it would possibly uncover the amount of paternity fraud truly exist and, again, feminists and local government do not want that kind of info out there.

When these topics are brought up they're buried because no one wants it to catch momentum and start asking questions. Either that or you're lied to and told male-contraceptive hasn't been proven to work when in fact it has and then you find out it's woefully underfunded.... for a reason.

I-wanna-GO-FAST · 2021-09-05T22:13:39+00:00

why don't I ever hear men complain about the lack of male specific birth control options?

Probably because you live in your own bubble where men's legitimate complaints about almost anything don't get a second of attention by anyone. If you ever hang around MRA type circles this gets brought up regularly.

But really, any man that doesn't want kids always has the option of a vasectomy. They can freeze their sperm too if they think they might ever change their mind.

aerial_coitus · 2021-09-05T20:16:17+00:00

child support is not about the children. it never has been, and it never will be.

AutoModerator · 2021-09-05T17:35:48+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Key-Progress-8873 · 2021-09-05T19:32:05+00:00

I will tell you why men do. This is a problem only at bar ONS situations, if you have sex with a guy who you don't know outside of that evening, or vacation environment, or dating app or whatever. In that situation, you've given up the sex without any talk of or desire for commitment from either party. The guy has zero reason to care about the prospective kid, because for all he knows you fucked a different guy each day and he has no idea or guarantee the kid is even going to be his own. And I hope you understand the lack of desire men have for paying child support for another random guy's kid.

So in above situations yeah, it's far more important for you to use contraceptive than the guy. In different casual sex situations if you're FWB, or colleagues at work or neighbors, the guy will have possible social reprecussions in the event the pregnancy happens, because possible future DNA tests can put him in a situation where his kid is being born and brought up without him having any control over it.

By the way, to avoid all of the above, women, have sex only with men you are married to or at least some level of commitment from.

Taipanshimshon · 2021-09-05T21:35:34+00:00

I'd say we simply acknowledge women's rights to her body. After all there are many many more options available to women to avoid pregnancy whereas men have one temporary one - available to both genders. And one " permanent" one. Also shared by both

billsull_02842 · 2021-09-05T23:00:46+00:00

at anti feminists i wrote you shouldnt force a woman to term any more than sterilize a man. also i said there is a problem with right to abort and the right to seek child support. i may say in this case the sex sellers bare the responsibility. the customer is always right.

jonathaninfresno · 2021-09-06T01:23:11+00:00

Whatever you tax you get less of, whatever you subsidize you get more of

Jean_Vagjean · 2021-09-06T01:34:39+00:00

There is one simple male birth control option, don’t have sex. Further, if you do have sex, use a condom and still choose to not cum inside of the woman. Women can also use these techniques.

mandoa_sky · 2021-09-06T01:36:16+00:00

i assume they fall into the same category as those people who think a vaccine (years worth of testing, peer reviewed, research done by scientists who have devoted years to it) - is less effective at helping them than taking medicine created to help an animal with obvious anatomical differences.

Lateralanouncer · 2021-09-06T02:27:23+00:00

Having sex on birth control is not natural. Our sexual instincts around sex are matting and creating a child.

retraction_helix · 2021-09-06T04:36:24+00:00

Cause we want some fuck

desperateseagull · 2021-09-06T04:59:43+00:00

Cumming inside feels really godo

sedivy94 · 2021-09-06T05:05:01+00:00

…impulsiveness, this applies just as much to women.

cholmanattom · 2021-09-06T05:06:58+00:00

That's the bad bois type, avoid them, they are just down bad. Find a good one... but I don't know where you could find though.

Playful_Art_5364 · 2021-09-06T15:03:44+00:00

I personally think the courts systems in the US and the culture needs to stop rejecting the importance of fatherhood. Make it a noble task like before. Stop stripping men away from there kids because the wife cheated or some shit.

You can damn well do that if the culture wants. But a culture that not only doesn’t value fatherhood but thinks male perspective is cursed doesn’t get to when men dip out the system.

TheHeroReditDeserves · 2021-09-06T19:09:49+00:00

One is there problem and the other is someone else's problem. Talk about softballs

michael1962-01 · 2021-09-06T19:54:07+00:00

RP 101 - never let a woman be in control of conception.

You have no control on the abortion.

So financial abortion if the man wants abortion and she disagrees would be only fair solution.

Btw i had a vasectomy. Best decision ever.

Mike08p · 2021-09-06T23:30:46+00:00

Not all men. I've always had sex and in my late 20s if you take precautions there's no way you can get a girl pregnant. Unless she wants to. There are two types of men. The ones scared to have kids so they are careful and the ones who doesn't care. Those type of guys tend to catch an sti atleast once in their life.

FrivolousMood · 2021-09-07T05:42:05+00:00

Just wear a condom every time. Problem solved. Next.

Himmelsfeder · 2021-09-07T15:08:41+00:00

It's hard to fathom that this is even worth having a discussion over.

It's basic common sense that a woman who does not want to get pregnant needs protection during sex. If she's uncomfy with female condom, hormons, etc the man will have to wear a condom. If he's not ready to trade some displeasure for the safety of not invoking a life altering pregnancy, he's nuts and shouldn't be screwed with (pun not intended).

It's infuriating to see how so many men don't care the very least about the well-being of their partner. The audacity to feel entitled to have full access to a woman's body even when it can majorly harm her..and then get mad at her when she needs help dealing with the consequences.

This tells you all you need to know about a woman's worth in such men's eyes and why feminism is still much needed.

That said: Petition to never produce kids with such men until their kind is eradicated.

Podlubnyi · 2021-09-07T21:41:01+00:00

Probably because men have very few options for avoiding pregnancy. Once the woman gets pregnant, she has a multitude of options to avoid parenthood. A man has none.

People act like condoms are foolproof, yet a woman can still get pregnant even if the man wears one. Condoms can leak, break, fall off, expire, and they are also easily sabotaged. The only other options are complete abstinence and invasive, often irreversible, surgery on your nether regions.

What are you expecting men to do, take to the streets to demand the invention of something that hasn't yet been invented?

mr_pro_con · 2021-09-08T23:52:57+00:00

You can kill the kid because nobody bas a right to control your body.

but you have no problem controlling the labor of an independent adult for 18 years. At least the kid is incapable of paying for itself. What's your excuse?

If you can consent to sex then change your mind and kill the kid how can you disagree with the man being able to change his mind and not pay for an able bodied adult's lifestyle?

Vasectomy is best imo. Some men report being accused of fathering a child, often in very dramatic fashion, a few times a year. When they inform the woman (she sometimes brings a friend) they usually rage out then leave. This is why I don't buy the whole "the condom broke" bit.

YouReeck · 2021-09-10T06:00:57+00:00

As a male (not necessarily a man) who is pro-abortion, I believe that avoiding pregnancy is entirely the legal responsibility of a female.

If abortion is legal (and is free if your country has a decent healthcare system), then remaining pregnant is entirely the female's choice.

So it stands to reason that the party who will be affected by pregnancy will want to avoid it, while the party that won't will show no interest.

Child support, on the other hand, is completely unfair (considering the above). If the termination of pregnancy is the sole choice of the female (as it should be, their body, their choice), then the responsibility of shouldering it should also fall on the female.

Child support (when abortion is legal) is forcing males to take responsibility for a choice they didn't make.

TodTheRod01 · 2021-09-12T04:19:48+00:00

What you call complain...many men would just say is about equality.

In that a woman can force a kid on a guy and have him on the hook for 18yrs...but flip side she can disregard his wishes or flat out not tell him and kill his kid...

king_kriolu · 2021-09-30T15:57:53+00:00

Same reason women generally want as much access to abortion with out legal or moral judgment, and the freedom to have sex in any way they choose whether it be responsible or irresponsible. A kid with one parent is better of than one that is dead and gone. Infact I'd argue a kid who is an orphan is better off than a kid who is Dead and gone.

Nihi1986 · 2021-09-06T02:48:15+00:00

I think that the idea of avoiding child support comes from the resentment and negative expectations that many men have at this point.

We've heard too many horror stories about men totally screwed by courts and women's selfishness. In reality, I honestly don't know what to think since I don't know the data about it. In my country the custody is split 50% and 50% in the vast majority of cases and child support isn't too big.

I definitely hate the idea of having a kid with a woman who didn't even plan to stay in the relationship for too long and isn't willing to make it work. A woman who would see the kid as hers and not ours. Even worse if it's some sort of gold digger or lying about contraceptives.

Still, I guess it's not fair. The man knows what he does and is having sex too, right? He's responsible too.

chlor0phil · 2021-09-06T05:49:05+00:00

I think there's a lot of reasons for the lack of visible discussions of better male birth control: first, a lot of guys are probably ignorant of the fact that any options besides condoms and vasectomies could possibly exist, and it doesn't occur to them to look into options. I had to google it, have also been waiting on Vasalgel's clinical trial for years. Glad other ppl in this sub know about it. But at this point, I wonder if Big Condom and Big Pharma (the Pill etc) are conspiring to indefinitely goldbrick on that shit the same way GE did with electric cars 20 years ago. Seriously I would not put it past the corporate scumbags of this world.

In the US, quality of sex ed varies by county and as is still generally bad in the south and the rural parts of red/purple states in the Midwest, often correlated with the amount of churches per capita. Idk about abroad. I was lucky enough to have a decent class in high school, and I vaguely remember learning the difference between an IUD and a diaphragm, then promptly forgot forever because what you ladies do with your lady business is none of mine.

Also it's quite awkward to talk about with anyone IRL, being a topic that will predictably make other men uncomfortable, and possibly make women think we're making an awkward change of topic. It would almost never come up naturally in conversation, and in the rare case it might, it could easily be seen as hijacking the conversation away from women's sexual healthcare access issues which are of course much more urgent

PlayfulLawyer · 2021-09-06T07:46:03+00:00

There's effective birth control for both sides, everybody has to take responsibility for their own actions, and if you let somebody smash Raw, I don't know how many people took biology classes but that's a pretty good way for pregnancies to happen

2021-09-06T18:32:08+00:00

Child support in Texas should start at 6 weeks now and men should cover all of the woman’s hospital bills.

Any_Conclusion_4297 · 2021-09-06T18:35:14+00:00

My rapist told me he was afraid I would baby trap him before he raped me and came inside me w no condom knowing I’m not on bc.

😐

HOLYREGIME · 2021-09-05T17:54:13+00:00

This leads me to believe that men don’t actually care about preventing pregnancy, they only care about dodging the consequences of pregnancy

And here comes the hypocrisy. This sounds like women clamoring for abortion. Women have more ways to avoid pregnancy than men. Yet women still need to rely on abortion. Seems like they are the gender that don’t care about preventing it, just avoiding the consequences.

Physiologist21 · 2021-09-05T20:09:31+00:00

I do like this narrative, from every guy I've ever talked to, including myself. When engaging in sex, women never care whether you wear protection, in fact in most cases they were prefer you didn't which is absolutely fucking nuts to me.

It is indeed true if men could get pregnant shit would change overnight because on the whole we aint that stupid.

chankletavoladora · 2021-09-05T22:13:18+00:00

Hmmm you guys are talking like women aren’t the gate keepers for getting pregnant. Women literally have almost ALL the contraceptive methods and control vs. the one thing men have which is condoms. What about all those times the girls says to bust a nut because she’s on the pill or otherwise and pregnancy follows? I agree men should always wear a condom but mainly not to be entrapped by women wanting to get pregnant.

FuckWhatYallThink · 2021-09-05T17:49:49+00:00

Men “care” about avoiding child support because women are allowed to abort without caring about his wishes, so why should we care about your needs?

Its a form of argumentative revenge. Its saying fuck you for not giving me any legal input whether my potential kid lives or dies. You want to play it that way? Ok. No reproductive say for me, no money for you

No one can convince me women’s uncontested ability to slay my progeny in the womb is “fair”. If you dont think mens response to the issue is fair, good. Thats the point

Vengeance. My rights are important. My will cannot be countermanded so easily. Ya’ll fucked with the wrong MRA

nothatyoucare · 2021-09-05T19:56:52+00:00

MEN DON'T GET PREGNANT. I've NEVER seen a woman with a woman specific condom. Accountability is kryptonite to women I swear.

Edit: Be on the lookout when the women of PPD say, "its not my responsibility to blah blah for men" but then they post things like this. smh.

SnooCats37 · 2021-09-05T18:24:22+00:00

This is my view on it, if a man from the moment they discover the woman is pregnant says I don't want this pregnancy, whether you proceed is your decision but I'm sorry I'm going to have to walk away, then he has been honest from the off and the woman wants to continue with the pregnancy she will be doing it with the knowledge she will be doing it entirely on her own.

However if a man is there throughout the pregnancy, or for some of the pregnancy and then changes his mind, he should pay child support even if he chooses not to be in the child's life.

Unfortunately in society when a man walks away and chooses to not pay child support, if the woman goes after it, there are lots of women and men that will turn around say she's a gold digger. Those same people are telling the guy that it is perfectly acceptable to walk away and not take responsibility in any form for a life he chose to be apart of making.

CentralAdmin · 2021-09-05T22:00:15+00:00

This leads me to believe that men don't actually care about preventing pregnancy, they only care about dodging the consequences of pregnancy.

Women do the same thing. It's a human trait. The only difference is that women have more opportunities to avoid pregnancy than men do. They have a ton of birth control options at their disposal and can abort their unborn kids. They also have safe haven laws as a last ditch attempt at avoiding parenthood.

Single motherhood has been increasing over the years. In fact the US has the highest rate of children living in single parent households.

Women are more than welcome to say no when a man wants unprotected sex. If she gets the final say on whether she wants to be pregnant or not, she should bear more of the responsibility for the pregnancy.

Unfortunately men don't get a choice in the matter. She can even get pregnant from raping a minor and successfully sue for child support:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma/201902/when-male-rape-victims-are-accountable-child-support

This is important because it shows the disparity in how we treat men and women regarding pregnancy. Men must just accept responsibility while women have multiple choices. Despite all the choices, single motherhood is increasing. They have so much power they can force someone else to be a parent against their will.

So when you are asking men what they can do to avoid pregnancy at best the answer is don't get raped, practice celibacy and use condoms. But even then, condoms are not perfect and if she gets pregnant he has to hope she doesn't want to be a mom.

If, however, men were offered a choice in whether they wanted to be a father or not beyond telling them to use a condom and keep it in their pants (no one would be okay with an abstinence-only approach for women), you would probably see less single motherhood as women - who are perfectly capable of working - may choose not to get pregnant solely at personal cost.

This is not to excuse men for making poor choices. It is simply to say there is a safety net women have that men don't and we vilify men far more for not wanting to be parents. Women are free to even kill their unborn children to avoid parenthood. Men even go to jail at a higher rate than women do for failing to pay child support. It is inhumane to jail someone for being too poor to pay or to allow women to go so far as to be able to rape men and boys and still make them pay. The people worst affected are always the poor. Surely men need more rights in this area.

Nodeal_reddit · 2021-09-05T22:06:45+00:00

Your body, your choice. My money, my choice.

Drougen · 2021-09-05T23:08:43+00:00

I don't know where you're looking but I've seen quite a few men wondering about it, myself included. There's only one semi-viable option for men and I believe it's still in testing in the US.

Also the reason people complain about child support because almost none of the money goes to the child. There's nothing that ensures the money is being spent on / for the child at all.

Good_Ad2143 · 2021-09-06T00:44:37+00:00

Why do women have kids specifically for child support checks?

DreamsOfWishes · 2021-09-05T20:16:01+00:00

Another example of that would be, about how much they push the controversial opt-out of child support, instead of the controversial BUT MUCH EASIER TO PASS "birth control passess" for women.

Where they can verify if a woman is at least prescribed birth control before having sex.

Have you ever heard about that? It's not an issue, no one cares, no one's fighting for it. But it would fucking help SO MUCH already and possibly even get used for making a female form of stealthing illegal, because there would be proof of them lying.

...and they don't care...

alialahmad1997 · 2021-09-05T20:57:11+00:00

Men not avoiding pregnancy is their fault its not double standards

Men cannot deciding if they can obt out if the pregnancy start is double standards

Any man not trying to avoid pregnancy but avoiding child support is a hypocrate But men who try and fail aren't going to complain about not wearing condoms

For options people don't usually ask for what does not exist yet

People usually go for condom or a female contraceptive This decision should be maid by all parties

DevilishRogue · 2021-09-05T23:04:51+00:00

Men do complain about the lack of male specific birth control options. But they also get shamed for firing blanks so it is kind of a Catch 22 for them. When they complain about child support for unwanted children it is when their partner has reneged on an agreement not to bring the pregnancy to term in the event of an accidental pregnancy.

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2021-09-05T23:09:36+00:00

Most men from what I'm gathering on numerous threads think pregnancy is a consequence that is rightfully given cause the woman had sex . They don't even look at pregnancy resulting in a human eventually that they will be obligated to help raise , seems some disassociate altogether , very odd .

Hence this means men really believe sex is only for procreation , which then confuses me more , we have so many men complaining they are not having causal sex, and worry about pregnancy and child support . Really get so many blurred lines from the male community in general .

The only men praising about this new law in Texas are men that are not getting causal sex , they truly look at this situation as a punishment . Like a aahh -haaa . Men don't care about birth control because pregnancy doesn't affect them physically.

heywoodsr · 2021-09-05T23:30:35+00:00

Because it does not cost 3k per month to raise a 5 month old kid . And the thought of his ex spending it on herself,drives him. Nuts

Harvest895 · 2021-09-05T23:42:26+00:00

Not much to complain about condoms work just fine. And Condoms are extremely easy to get. Also
most guys don’t go around sleeping with women bareback.

Demasii · 2021-09-06T00:39:14+00:00

Too many men here are talking about financial abortion instead of answering your question.

People focus on how things should be versus how things are. I see this mentality all the time in both sexes. Many don't want to take action to control the things that they can control. Just want to complain the unfairness in the world and not take logical steps to protect themselves.

It's ok to argue with how unfair things are but why would anyone want to listen to someone who don't care enough to prevent the unfairness from happening if it's that bad?

Good_Ad2143 · 2021-09-06T00:43:04+00:00

Why would a man want to pay for a child that's not his?

alphadawg94 · 2021-09-06T01:41:36+00:00

Guys want to have sex without a condom and not use birth control, and they do not want to support a child they don’t want. There’s nothing wrong with that. Where’s the issue?

Support should be required based on the involvement in the child’s life, not based on involvement in the child’s production. Parenthood is a privilege to be paid for, not an unfortunate expenditure. If you don’t want to pay, don’t and leave.

tropicsGold · 2021-09-06T04:35:49+00:00

Because knocking up a woman is awesome, but paying child support sucks. Duh

Plopolok · 2021-09-06T06:05:51+00:00

I've never once heard a man complain about his lack of options for avoiding getting someone pregnant.

What would it accomplish? They'd be labelled as whiners and risk-avoiders, that's all. But if you ask men, a lot would tell you that they'd be very interested in a "man-pill", if it existed. It doesn't, because it happens to be easier to disrupt some of the various complex processes that happen in women's bodies than to prevent testicles from producing sperm.

y2kjanelle · 2021-09-06T17:44:22+00:00

YES! This post is so lovely to see. Men literally have it sooo backwards.

PurpleManufacturer94 · 2021-09-06T17:49:42+00:00

Because were short sighted

Rfupon · 2021-09-05T21:51:51+00:00

Because there is only 1 thing a man can do by himself to avoid pregnancy, and there is no way for a woman to not notice that he didn't wear a condom. So at most, the risk is shared 50-50

Glarkin42 · 2021-09-06T03:21:34+00:00

Just don't have sex, I'm tired of child killers trying to dodge responsibility for intercourse.

manfrom-nantucket · 2021-09-06T01:03:03+00:00

If you are seeing a guy who has a problem putting on a condom to avoid pregnancy while at the same time not wanting to have kids then the question should be - WHY THE EVER LOVING FUCK ARE YOU WITH HIM?

Why do men take such interest in avoiding child support, but so little interest in avoiding pregnancy?

Comments

TENFOLD

PERFECT

DEAL!

Title	Why do men take such interest in avoiding child support, but so little interest in avoiding pregnancy?
Author	Any_Conclusion_4297
Upvotes	266
Comments	814
Date	September 5, 2021 5:35 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/pihgo3/why_do_men_take_such_interest_in_avoiding_child/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-do-men-take-such-interest-in-avoiding-child.1067440 https://theredarchive.com/post/1067440