Another Perspective on the Wage Gap

She didn't do the study with the Orchestras. Those were already practices being put in place compared to ones where they aren't. You selected only quotes to support your points out of context. You completely dismiss the points where:

GOLDIN: "Does that mean that women are receiving lower pay for equal work? That is possibly the case in certain places, but by and large it’s not that, it’s something else."

And:

GOLDIN:

"Women earn less than men for many reasons — especially job selection — but discrimination isn’t a huge factor."

And:

"GOLDIN: I certainly will. Disproportionately, women, particularly those who are mothers or who are taking care of others, would like greater predictability in their hours. They would like less on-call hours. They would like fewer periods of long hours. Well, those jobs are often the jobs - the ones that have the longer hours, the less predictability - those are the ones that are often the higher income occupations."

You are right about her not being the president of Harvard. There's another episode where the president of Harvard says the pay gap isn't what people take it as. Anyways, I was hoping you would learn something instead of taking quotes only that only support your side and dismissing all the others. My whole point is that the idea of men getting paid more for the same work and therefore having a "wage gap" isn't true. Have a good day.

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, you miss the point completely about orchestras.

DUBNER: I’m trying to tell — I may be interpreting this wrong — but are you saying that the use of more blind auditions also had an effect of simply encouraging more females to audition for those top tier orchestras?

GOLDIN: That’s right. It appears to have led to an explosion of auditions.

DUBNER: So that suggests that — gender gap aside, which we’re talking about — that what you might more broadly and much more importantly call an opportunity gap in the gender sphere is something that’s not only omnipresent in certain industries but also really hard to get at, right?

GOLDIN: That’s right. I think that this is a very good example of where individuals might not come out to interview — it’s expensive to do that in some sense, you have to travel to do it, you have to put your pride on the line. And so now there was just a much larger group of individuals doing these interviews.

This is why you should read the whole transcript and not pick and choose.

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You're honestly an asshole and an idiot. This comic is just a circlejerk to make everyone who's already decided men have it harder than women, and it serves no purpose. The wage gap has been disproven, so why the fuck is this comic even still up? The post doesn't make sense then.

Also, it doesn't even apply to the sub! It's about women using their gender as an excuse! The female horse in this picture is just genuinely fucking confused. Not using it's gender as an "excuse."

And the reasons that the wage gap is a myth is the same reason that most of what the horse is carrying on his back are misleading or false.

This whole sub has gone to shit recently, everythings just assholes and misogynists jerking each other off about how hard men have it and how much better we are than women. It's fucking pathetic. And you don't help.

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It is not "being paid" it is "earning". What this means is that men are not paid more money for doing the same job, but that men as a WHOLE earn more money than women.
No one here is saying men deserve more from what I've seen, nor is that what the OP comic implies.
The "wage gap" is a real phenomenon in that it has been reported in studies from the US Department of Labor, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the American Association of University Women and other organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

It is simply reported data that women, as a whole, on average take less money home than men, as a whole, do on average.

What the wage gap largely is NOT, is proof that employers by and large are discriminating against women in favor of men when it comes to being paid. (though discrimination may exist in hiring practices and treatment within industries, but that isn't the topic of this discussion)

So when people say "the wage gap is a myth" what I believe they are trying to say is that "the wage gap is not proof of discrimination against women".

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The wage gap is a lie when you compare the same job and experience male to female. The reasons men earn more in general is for the reasons stated in the cartoon. It's the whole point of the post.

TL;DR: Whoosh.

Also add this here:

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

TL;DL:

A economist from Harvard states that wage gap isn't because of sexism but because of woman's work/family balance. In fact in many fields woman earn more out of college than men. When it becomes an issue is 5-7 years into a woman's career.

Basically, when lots of woman start having kids and getting married they work less or find jobs that are more flexible to their family and then get paid less because of it. Want to equal the "wage gap" improve FMLA and health benefits for men AND woman. That way a man can justifiably stay at home instead of the woman.

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[–]borahorzagobuchol-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are many ways of making sense of it. Here is one.

Once upon a time black men were paid less than white men for doing the same job, even when they had the same education and experience (in fact, they still are in many countries, but let's just pretend this problem is universally solved rather than open another can of worms). At that time people trotted out all sorts of reasons why, "black men aren't as intelligent, so they make more mistakes and their labor isn't worth as much," "white men are a superior race, so they are promoted more often," "black men are naturally lazy, so they cut corners whenever they can."

Nowadays, nearly everyone recognizes these arguments for what they are, plan old racism. But at the time (and still), a lot of people who were racist thought these were good reasons not to hire black people, and to promote them less, and to pay them less, so the market didn't magically correct for this. The widespread ignorance and bigotry allowed the phenomena to continue when normally market mechanisms would solve it. In fact, there were even a lot of savvy employers who knew that black employees were just as capable as white ones, but realized they could take advantage of the situation by hiring them and continuing to pay them less. Why not?

Do you see any possible parallels between this and the current status of women in employment? Ever hear about how women, "don't work as hard" as men? Ever hear someone make the argument that women aren't as intelligent as men? That they tend to be lazy, or more distracted, and make mistakes and cut corners all the time? If not, I'd be happy to show you dozens of messages right here on lovely reddit expressing exactly this sentiment and getting massively upvoted.

And that sentiment (some would call it "sexism") is why you can still hire women to do the same job and pay them less, and continue to do so consistently for years, because there are plenty of people out there who still won't hire them, or won't promote them as often, or will continue to underpay them, just out of sheer bigotry. And this explains why the wage gap still exists after you control for experience and education, though it is much smaller at that point, because people aren't nearly as bigoted about women as they once were.

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why not compare the salary of a 10 year experienced HR manager (female dominated field) with a 10yr experienced accountant (male dominated field).

Because they're two completely different lines of work. That's why. The argument being made is that women are paid less for the exact same work. That is patently false. The majority of women choose less profitable career paths than men and thus, usually earn less than men.

I have zero problems with a 30 year librarian earning less than a 3 year welder, no matter if it's a male librarian and female welder or visa versa.

If women want to earn more, they need to pick more profitable career paths. If they want to do what moves them, that's fine. But, you don't get to major in feminist finger painting and bitch about not getting engineer pay and get taken seriously.

Hence, the entire "wage gap" discussion as of late.

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[–]borahorzagobuchol0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The wage gap is a lie when you compare the same job and experience male to female.

No, it isn't. The controlled wage gap is far smaller than the uncontrolled gap, but both exist and both are significant for different reasons.

Payscale.com: "Nationally, when we control for job title, job level and other important influencers of wages (like years of work experience), women still only make 98 cents for every dollar earned by men."* More importantly, "but what often gets lost in translation is what the uncontrolled gap truly represents—that women are less likely to hold high-level, high-paying jobs than men. The more stubborn gap is one of opportunity rather than "equal pay for equal work."

The uncontrolled gap comes down to men not doing an equal share of childcare and domestic labor, which women do without pay or opportunity for advancement, and this winds up holding them back in their long-term careers.

Pewresearch: "Roughly four-in-ten mothers said that at some point in their work life they had taken a significant amount of time off (39%) or reduced their work hours (42%) to care for a child or other family member. Roughly a quarter (27%) said they had quit work altogether to take care of these familial responsibilities. Fewer men said the same. For example, just 24% of fathers said they had taken a significant amount of time off to care for a child or other family member."

Working women still, on average, work fewer minutes per day than men:

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics: "employed men work an average of 42 minutes per day more than their female counterparts", but the domestic and childcare work of working men lags far behind that of working women, more than countering the 42 minute imbalance at "work":

50 percent of women said they did some housework, such as cleaning or laundry, every day, while only 22 percent of men said the same. And 70 percent of women said they prepped or cleaned up food in an average day, while 43 percent of men said the same. Men were slightly more likely than women to participate in yard work — 12 percent to 8 percent. Women with children under 6 years old spend about an hour a day providing physical care to children, such as bathing or feeding them. Men in the same category spent 25 minutes per day on physical care. *

So, in summation, women are working more than men in total (and this holds worldwide: World Economic Forum), but much more of their work is unpaid, unrecognized, and ends up detracting from the paid work so that their opportunities for advancement and equal wealth down the road are greatly diminished.

And some men get really defensive about this, so they run to comics like this to dismiss the phenomena rather than trying to address the underlying causes, like imbalances in paternal and maternal paid leave, imbalances in cultural expectations for domestic work, and both childcare and domestic labor generally being ignored when total labor contributions are considered so that many politicians, employers and business leaders fail to recognize the problem.

[–]robertson_davies1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Higher up in the thread there are calls for stats refuting the OP's comic and there's also lots of talk about how the wage gap is a myth. Then, right here, is a great and sourced post that details the actual issue in clear terms and, as of my writing, it has no responses or counter arguments from the comic's supporters.

Seems like, when the issue is boiled down to its essence, women's overall contribution to society is undervalued. They do more than men, on average, to maintain the home and raise our children. This takes away from time at work.

Home life and child rearing, I'll go out on a limb here, are more important than work. In fact, you could say that most people (not all) work primarily to provide a good home and environment for their spouse, children, and other loved ones. A good society should see this and encourage, or even incentivize, greater equality between men and women's participation in these important spheres. Doing this would help to equalize pay and opportunities by equalizing men and women's time at work (it's this overall time at work that is a large part of what pushes men ahead in pay and promotions, even when they are on comparable career tracks as women).

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]borahorzagobuchol0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm blown away. After I reply you edit your post to contain the original argument of my post, along with a podcast that backs up my argument perfectly. Meanwhile, your post gets more upvotes, despite your original claim being unsourced and demonstrably false, and I'm stuck at zero from a civil reply with multiple reliable sources. Then you have thee gall to tell me to "listen and learn". I get such a strong sense of intellectual integrity from this sub.

And no, the first stat does not "defend the comic" as the controlled gap is for women working the same jobs, in the same circumstances, with the same education levels. That means when this gap still exists the men don't have more comfortable working conditions, their workplace isn't more dangerous, and they aren't making different career choices.

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]borahorzagobuchol0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

2% is probably within the margin of error of sample size and statistical analysis my friend.

I'm not your friend, as you continue to be belligerent and condescending for no reason at all. If you believe the 2% is erroneous and in reality the difference is non-existent (rather than, say, double that) please offer any evidence whatsoever for this unsupported assertion.

I did try to give the most favorable statistic for the controlled gap that I could find, usually studies show it to be between 5-7% (CONSAD, BLS, AAUW). So, if anything, the preponderance of data suggests that a doubling or tripling of the 2% is more realistic.

Lol. "They aren't making different career choices." You can't be serious.

You seem to have entirely lost the thread of the conversation. You claimed that the "first stat" (the controlled wage gap) supported the comic. I mentioned that the controlled wage gap accounts for men and women who are in the same career, with the same experience and education levels, thus cannot support the comic.

You laughed off my reply, apparently supporting the contention that people who are in the same career have made a different career choice, thus the comic still makes sense when talking about the "first stat"?

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]borahorzagobuchol1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Don't be mad that I had a better source

A podcast is a better source than the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Pew Research and Payscale? Okay...

that more people agree with

I mean, even I agreed with it. As I already made clear, the edit that you made to your original post after I had replied neither supported your original claim, nor contradicted mine, and in fact supported everything I said.

I've been extremely civil.

You began with incivility, "the wage gap is a lie". When referring to the argument of someone you disagree with in civil conversation, you do not assume they are lying (the presumption of malevolent intent) when their assertions appear false. You then slid into condescension, "Listen and learn," which you followed with arrogant dismissal, "Lol... You can't be serious," and a blatant refusal to even read my response, "TL:DR I'm over it bro."

And you consider this "extremely civil"? When my child was five, and actually thought the world revolved around them, they were still capable of more courteous behavior.

I edited that has an expansion on my original post

Except that it doesn't support your original post, which is still demonstrably false. How can you expand on a false claim with evidence that doesn't support it?

I'm not sure why you think I need your permission to do so

I don't, nor did I make any such claim. I merely pointed out how interesting it was that your post, which merely repeated the argument I had just laid out in my carefully cited and reasoned response, ended up getting so many upvotes when the original claim was false and the edit did nothing to support it.

Lastly, U mad bro?

More of this "civility" according to schoolyard insult standards? I suppose you think your continued downvoting of my responses, in obvious contradiction to redditquette, is just more civility to add on top.

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]robertson_davies0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hey, Tappen_Zee, you posted this link as a reply to my response below and then you deleted your post: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

I'm not sure if you sent the link to help me prove my point, or yours? Maybe, you took the time to read through the link and decided it didn't help your case? Is that why you deleted your comment?

From YOUR link: "You could hypothetically give women the male distribution of occupations and you would wipe out ONLY about a quarter of the difference in earnings between men and women." -Claudia Goldin, the first woman to get tenure in the Harvard economics department, who, in 2014, served as president of the American Economic Association:

Also, the following study, FROM YOUR LINK, indicates that, when employers hire 'blind' (aka, when they don't know if they're hiring men or women), the amount of women hired can go up by as much as 25%:

"We found out that the best orchestras in the United States, most of them use a blind when they do auditions. They didn’t in the past, and each one of them adopted this technique for having auditions. And the blind means that the individuals who are making the decision on the sound of the individual’s performance do not get to see the individual.... We found that blind auditions mattered a tremendous amount. Our best estimate was that it was about 25% of an increase [in women hired]."

A 25% increase in hiring rate is ENORMOUS!

Point 3: As I wrote in my earlier post, the one to which you responded with the link to the freakonomics podcast, women are penalized much more than men for taking time to raise the children they have together. Not fair and, like I suggested, society undervalues women's overall contribution to society and society should encourage, or even incentivize greater equality between men and women's participation in these important spheres. Here's support for my point, from your link:

"DUBNER: Let me ask you about one more contributory factor. The parent penalty, what’s often called the mommy tax. How significant is that as a contributory factor? GOLDIN: Well, it seems as if it’s a very large factor. That anything that leads you to want to have more time is going to be a large factor."

Another quote: "When women then have children, or again are caring for their own parents or other sick family members who need care, then they need to work differently. They need to work flexibly, and often go part-time. They often get less-good assignments because their bosses think that they’re not going to want work that allows them to travel, or they’re not going to be able to stay up all night, or whatever it is. And so then you start — if you’re working part-time, you don’t get the same raises. And if you’re working flexibly your boss very typically thinks that you’re not that committed to your career, so you don’t get promoted."

Basically, as I suggested, women are unfairly burdened with caring for the family and home. This gives them less time to devote to work, regardless of profession or STEM career. Instead of ignoring this real, and data supported issue, perhaps men should also be encouraged to do more at home and with child rearing. The weight on men and women here should be roughly equal.

Last, and as nothing more than a quick illustrating story, again from your link: "There would seem to be kinda-sorta good news here, which is that discrimination doesn’t seem to be the main culprit in the gender pay gap. Or at least it’s hard to find a smoking gun, as Claudia Goldin says. But not impossible. A hack of Sony Pictures e-mails showed that the actresses Jennifer Lawrence and Amy Adams got fewer back-end points than their male counterparts in the film American Hustle.... So, that’s another component to consider when you’re talking about the gender pay gap — that even in the absence of outright discrimination, the playing fields are not necessarily equal."

Not sure what you hoped to prove with that link. If anything, I now feel stronger about my position, and I have a link I can use to show data to support it.

Thank you.

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]robertson_davies1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I see you didn't delete to hide the link, but were doing it in order to place it in your parent comment. That's cool. But, here are some issues:

You misattribute the study you cite as coming from the president of Harvard. It doesn't, it comes from a professor of economics at Harvard.
You tell me to listen to the podcast, because there is more to it. I read through the podcast's entire transcript and then showed you proof that your takeaway from the podcast is inaccurate, at best. Also, I personally find it easier to really delve into the substance of a topic when I read it, in depth, rather than listen to the same material.
I do agree with you here: "Want to equal the "wage gap" improve FMLA and health benefits for men AND woman. That way a man can justifiably stay at home instead of the woman."

So, since we both see an issue that needs addressing, don't you think that, as a society, we should fight for equal time off for men and women, and properly incentivize them both to take the time? This would go a long way to eliminating any unfairness and inequity in the careers of men and women.

At least we found some common ground, right? :)

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You selected only quotes to support your points out of context. You completely dismiss the points where:

GOLDIN: "Does that mean that women are receiving lower pay for equal work? That is possibly the case in certain places, but by and large it’s not that, it’s something else."

And:

GOLDIN:

"Women earn less than men for many reasons — especially job selection — but discrimination isn’t a huge factor."

And:

"GOLDIN: I certainly will. Disproportionately, women, particularly those who are mothers or who are taking care of others, would like greater predictability in their hours. They would like less on-call hours. They would like fewer periods of long hours. Well, those jobs are often the jobs - the ones that have the longer hours, the less predictability - those are the ones that are often the higher income occupations."

You are right about her not being the president of Harvard. There's another episode where the president of Harvard says the pay gap isn't what people take it as. Anyways, I was hoping you would learn something instead of taking quotes only that only support your side and dismissing all the others. My whole point is that the idea of men getting paid more for the same work and therefore having a "wage gap" isn't true. Have a good day.

[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Tappen_Zee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You took your main point about orchestras COMPLETELY out of context. The reason they were more successful is because more woman liked the double blind auditions. This is why you should read the whole transcript and not pick and choose.

DUBNER: I’m trying to tell — I may be interpreting this wrong — but are you saying that the use of more blind auditions also had an effect of simply encouraging more females to audition for those top tier orchestras?

GOLDIN: That’s right. It appears to have led to an explosion of auditions.

DUBNER: So that suggests that — gender gap aside, which we’re talking about — that what you might more broadly and much more importantly call an opportunity gap in the gender sphere is something that’s not only omnipresent in certain industries but also really hard to get at, right?

GOLDIN: That’s right. I think that this is a very good example of where individuals might not come out to interview — it’s expensive to do that in some sense, you have to travel to do it, you have to put your pride on the line. And so now there was just a much larger group of individuals doing these interviews.

All your claims are out of context. If you would actually read the whole transcript without your mind already being made up you might learn something.

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So, despite the availability of information and the commentary that comes with it, you want me, in this thread to provide a source for you, presumably because you have not seen this source before (doubtful). Despite the fact, that the OP claimed these statements have been debunked, you're going to sit there and ask for information that is readily available, that you somehow in this very moment simultaneously have no knowledge of but were okay with the claim these statements have been debunked.

That makes no fucking sense. Every fucking time with people like yourself, that apparently love to rub their eyes across sand paper, it becomes a conversation "reset" in some attempt to seem intellectually curious. It's the worst and most pathetic form of concern trolling

You are doing the exact same fucking thing climate change deniers do. Same thing as flat earthers, and anti-vaccers. You want to sit there and pretend that you've done research into this subject and want to put up a veil of some hidden knowledge no one else in academia has -- all while simultaneously not being able to actually discuss the subject in any meaningful form.

It's a fucking game to you people. Sit on a rock, at least you'll be in good company.

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Anyone in a "studies" major at university, should expect to come out of it in a low paying job. Sure, they can work up from it and even make a fortune doing what they love if they work your ass off. But STEM generally will get higher paying jobs right out the gate. This is the market place and whining about it on Reddit or Facebook isn't going to change anything.

And here's the thing. If your work is just as good as any other counterparts and you feel your pay isn't adequate, record your work output, take it to management and demand a raise. If they won't give it to you, take your expertise elsewhere and get paid. There are plenty of men underpaid too, because they don't feel they are worthy, or they have misplaced loyalty to a boss or a company etc. If money is so awfully important to you, then chase it. Thats the American dream, go for it, no one is going to stop you, as a matter of fact a lot of people will cheer you on. Americans love a success story. Unless they are whiny bitches who just want to bring everyone down.

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I think there could easily be a perception that the field is less accessible to women (because it objectively has been, historically) which could discourage women from considering it even if they are interested. But even if you reject that possibility, it seems lazy to just say "that's how things are" and not look into why that's how things are.

Perception is subjective (I.E people perceive things differently), and regardless of that, if someone perceives STEM fields to be inaccessible (whether they actually are or not is a different question I'm not getting in to) then that will change their interest in studying it. If you perceive the fields to be inaccessible and then decide not to enter for those reasons, I'd still call that a lack of interest.

Why aren't men equally interested in nursing? Maybe men are inherently less interested in nursing, but more likely is that nursing is traditionally seen as a feminine occupation and there are social biases against male nurses that keep more men from pursuing that career.

Those social biases don't actually stop them, it may be a faux pas or not seen as manly but it isn't physically stopping them from going to nursing school.

If a man decides not to be a nurse because he thinks it'll make him look girly then that's on him, obviously he wasn't interested in becoming a nurse THAT much if he gives up because of some silly societal expectations. It comes back to a lack of personal interest.

If men were expected to wear makeup and fashion their hair, there would be significantly more male interest in cosmetology.

I agree, but I don't see how that's a bad thing?

Like, it just makes sense that if more men used makeup more men would be makeup professionals, is that bad?

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Weird thing is, at least in my neck of the woods, my college math and science dept.'s teacher population is around 60% female including and the administrative faculty is closer to 80%. (And fwiw, I don't live in some liberal enclave. I live in a small, Southern town wholly reliant on oil, gas and petroleum refinement.)

I've never gone into the details with any of them, but just shooting from time to time they all say they love math and science but never had any interest in working in the commercial field. They wanted to teach and be a part of a university. That was their thing. When I bring up the money and status issue they say "those weren't important to me."

I think it's cultural. We tend to reward actions of nurturing and caring (which is what teaching is) in girls way more than we do boys. Conversely we condition boys to think of their personal fulfillment more in terms of earning potential and being successful in a competitive field. And it takes a lot for a person to go against the grain of what's expected of them.

I bet there's a good chunk of women who are pursuing more "traditional" female career paths because they've both conditioned themselves and been conditioned to see themselves in that manner when, if they tried and applied themselves, they might get more out pursuing a more "traditionally male" career path. (And vice Vera's for boys.)

Though I see WAY more women in the engineering department than I did 10 years ago and also working at the plants.

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[–]realvmouse4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And there is nothing wrong with that.

When Donald Trump says we shoudl change the rules so companies stop shipping jobs overseas, but it comes to light that he made products overseas, does that prove he's a hypocrite? I don't like T__D at all, but no, it doesn't. He's arguing about the factors that lead to trends in behavior among a large segment of people.

When someone goes into gender study and complains that STEM fields are unwelcoming to women, she's not in any way being irrational, hypocritical, or problematic. She is arguing that the field is set up in a way that she wouldn't want to go into it, and many other women would feel the same way, and so she's studying how we can change the field and encourage more women to enter.

You can disagree with the premise that STEM is unwelcoming to women, but it's silly to act like she's behaving irrationally or hypocritically. Just as The Donald has a point when he says it's not about sacrificing profits to "do the right thing," but rather, about changing the system so that companies will naturally do the right thing (from the perspective of American workers).

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[–]realvmouse1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ahhh shit. I read this reply from my inbox and thought it was from the r/atheism thread where I am having a different argument. Your reply could have served as a reply in the other thread, and had the same awkward/wrong grammar that could either be from a computer pgorammer or an ESL person (you've since made changes, like deleting "then" from in front of "she's.")

Anyway, now that I've got that straigthened out, let me explain why you are wrong.

If there are factors inherently unwelcoming to women that pervate STEM fields, then going into women's studies is a way to potentially find those factors and find solutions to them.

If a woman believes such factors exist, then they are not being a hypocrite by studying them instead of directly entering a STEM field.

The only way her actions would be irrational is if those factors don't exist, which was and is beyond the scope of the argument I'm making. There is certainly a case to be made on either side of this debate.

You're fairly stupid for thinking it's so clear-cut that nothing about STEM fields drives women away, fwiw. You may have a case to make, but no intelligent person having honestly examined the issue would feel justified in summarily dismissing it entirely. But I'm not here to educate you on that point.

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Not sure if you're a troll, but I'll take the bait.

Are you familiar with the phrase "correlation does not equal causation?" Just because few women enter into STEM doesn't mean women do not have the ability to perform well in STEM. To say for certain that STEM being "too hard for women" is the reason why there are so few women, you would have to look at the number of women that do actually choose a STEM major and how many of them actually graduate. Another way to do it is to compare the average grades of the female students who do choose the major to the average grades of the male students.

If you find that there are a ton of female STEM dropouts or that the female grade average is lower, then you can reasonably say that women are not performing well. With that evidence you can make the "too hard for women" claim. On a similar vein, work in HR departments is largely women. You can't make an argument that working in HR is too hard for men just because there aren't very many men in the field, so why do it for women and STEM?

[–]ayevee211 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Zerksys1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm quite confident that a one of the major answers (if honestly is present) is that STEM is perceived as "too hard"

Okay so we're both serious. Here's the thing. Perceived difficulty as a deterrent does not mean that women do not have the ability to handle it. You're making really large blanket statements based upon surveys which may or may not exist, and surveys are fairly unreliable when it comes to actual statistics.

The only way to determine whether or not women are having a rough time in engineering is to survey grades and graduation rates of women who get into engineering from the time they start to the time they either drop out or graduate.

Also I never compared HR to engineering. You made that assumption. All I'm saying is that just because a profession does not contain balance between genders, doesn't mean that a profession is "too hard" for one gender. If you don't like the HR example, how about nursing. Nursing is a high paying, high demand, high skill, high education type of profession, and there are not many men. Is this because nursing is too hard? No it's because it's perceived as being unmanly to be a nurse.

[–]ahugefan221 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]turtleofsorrows6 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I can't believe I just read that as a comment about women in STEM. As much as you might not want it to be, there are some fields that are historically 'Boys Clubs'. STEM fields are DEFINITELY one of them.

Where I went to college, which had one female professor out of the fifteen or so I had, it's changing but the sciences that girls are going into are still Biology etc.

The reason for this is that Physics, Engineering, Computer Sciences ARE still seen as for guys.

To say that women are too lazy to go to 'hard' fields is so incredibly demeaning to the women, like myself, who do go through them despite being discouraged throughout my secondary school life. If my parents hadn't been so supportive I would absolutely have changed to a different field.

As a balance point, there are also a lot of fields/careers that are female dominated that men feel unwelcome in. The men who don't go into them are not lazy, they're facing sexism in their career choices by both female colleagues and male acquaintances. It happens both ways!

Next time you think that women are just too lazy to go into STEM, imagine being a guy who wants to be a childcare worker and how your friends would react when you told them. Cause that's what it was like when I said I wanted to study Physics.

[–]ayevee214 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]turtleofsorrows2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And I'm saying that those ideas about how hard STEM is for girls are told it to girls repeatedly through out their time in primary and secondary education. And any interest is discouraged in many different ways.

Does that not make it entirely understandable why they would be reluctant to choose those fields? Especially considering the lack of female role models currently in those fields? Adding in everyday sexism from older males in those departments and from other male students and the lack of female authority figures in the fields who could be confided in about those problems?

All of these compound into a field that women feel unwelcoming, even if they happen to be interested in it enough to actually study it and enter a career in it.

I accept the fact that you believe that the main barrier is the idea that women aren't smart enough to do STEM. I happen to believe that it's the combination of all of the above that is the, understandably, huge barrier for women in STEM.

Your respect is noted, but I find it strange that women who fail to overcome these obstacles are less deserving of respect than women who had some support systems to help them get passed it. But I'm not saying you don't respect them.

[–]ayevee211 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]turtleofsorrows2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think you are ignoring the reality of the world so it fits your own ideas of what the world is like. Interests absolutely need to be encouraged in children as they grow. This 'true passion' has to be cultivated by parents, teachers and exposure to it. A kid who kinda likes to paint won't become an artist if they don't have access to the tools needed, information on art and someone to encourage the interest.

And please try not to belittle the discomfort women can feel by comments made by older men about their attractiveness or leering looks. I agree that there is an element of growing a thick skin, but to hear a 50+ year old married professor make a sexual comment about a 20 year old female student as she presents her research project makes for an uncomfortable studying environment.

And I am not complaining about anything other than your belief that women are just too lazy to work at a hard subject when I believe there a many other factors at play. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be and you are trying to diminish the reality of the situation by focusing on what you believe to be frivolous concerns.

And just because women in developing countries have it harder, doesn't mean we can't try to reduce the sexism that is in our own countries.

Also almost all of these comments can be reversed to men in historically female dominated areas, but we're discussing females in STEM so I've focused on that.

[–]ayevee211 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]turtleofsorrows1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So if a girl is constantly told that something is for boys as a child and excluded from any involvement in Science/Engineering projects at home or school she won't gain an interest in it!

Yes men making sexual comments about a female student is sexual harassment, but even at 20 years old it can be incredibly difficult to know how to respond to that situation - especially when you don't have women in the same position of authority as the man making you feel like this. It's not as simple a situation as you make it out to be. You need more older females in the field of study for younger girls to want to join. Therefore the lack of females in STEM is already making it harder for young girls to go into it.

See you saying that a lot of women take the easy way out is calling them lazy. And I think I've made some good points as to why women aren't joining these fields that have nothing to do with the difficulty of the subject matter - if you still believe that women are just trying coast through life and that there's nothing that needs to be done to help with the imbalance then I can't change your mind.

Having women in STEM is important, it means that a younger generation of girls won't find the field so intimidating and exclusive - this means that the workplace for the women who faced all of these obstacles won't be as uncomfortable and at times really damaging to her well being. And also just that some women may have a good aptitude for science and have been too afraid to go in the field, we're losing out on a lot of talent if a 50% of the population find it an unwelcoming field.

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What do you mean by a lower barrier for entry? I know that, for example, women are preferred 2:1 over men for faculty positions in STEM fields<sup>1,</sup> but there are significant barriers to women in STEM both in education and in the workplace that harms retention and causes under-representation.<sup>2,3,4 This article suggests that those barriers might be (a) masculine cultures that signal a lower sense of belonging to women than men, (b) a lack of sufficient early experience with computer science, engineering, and physics, and (c) gender gaps in self-efficacy. The IBM piece But also this article suggests that the women entering the STEM workforce could be increased by 75% if women could be prevented from dropping out of Calc I at a rate of 1 and a half times more often than men, which they say is probably due to a lower amount of confidence of women going into the course compared to men. So basically it seems like the best way to increase gender equality in STEM is to make sure that those environments are welcoming to women and to try to give them more encouragement than they are currently getting, because the biggest barrier for women in STEM appears to be a feeling that they are not qualified for STEM careers regardless of whether they actually are or not. We should try to figure out why that is the case and then target those areas.

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So you're basically saying equality only applies to women when it suits them?

I remember a big stink recently about women having to sign up for the United States Selective Services (The draft) Basically, if you're a dude and don't sign up, not only are you a felon- you'll be looked down upon on any federal/state/military job.

Now all of a sudden we want equality right? So women should be subject to the draft the same as men, right?

Naw, they threw fits because somehow equality has a bar that is only set so high.

Equal means equal right? There is no discussion about what "equal" means.. I'm fine with that, and if they want equality- No problem with that.

But equality equates to EQUAL, so, lets get them in the coal mines, lets get them working in the factories that produce steel, lets get them doing the welding jobs on oil drilling platforms.

That is the only way they could ever be "equal"

[–]L00ph0l3861 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, the common convention is to distinguish between "equality" (100% no distinctions in hiring, military service, etc etc) and "equity", which is involved in things like affirmative action - which, yes, can be racist/sexist since it involves hiring on the basis on race/sex, but big picture the advantages that are involved in higher socioeconomic status (primarily, though other factors are also relevant) indicate that even with discriminatory hiring practices, white men are more likely to achieve then counterparts.

The history is important - I mean, even in that article that I linked (which I'm not sure how that conveys the idea that equality only applies to women when it suits them - think you might be projecting a bit), it distinguishes between women are more likely to get assistant professorship than a man despite equal qualifications. However, men are still more likely to be in those positions just due to substantially increased raw numbers.

It's all shades of grey

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I don't mind taking a scientific approach and making the game more enjoyable for the audience. That would decrease the interest gap and help get more funding for female teams. Fuck all that "it's gotta be equal or it isn't equal" nonsense. Human genetics and gender differences are what they are. Basketball isn't military, and even if it is, making the same standards for both is just a way of perpetuating a disadvantage for women anyway. I've always seen those arguments as a convenient back door for favoring males. I mean, just listen to where the arguments generally come from - males and females who benefit from the status quo.

I mean, of course the female teams and coaches would need to agree. It would need to be held up to scientific scrutiny. But I don't think that a game whose parameters were established based on male players should be exempt from consideration of the statistical differences between the male-centered benchmark and what would have been the benchmark if it was developed for female players.

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I think a great notable exception was Rhonda Rousey. The moment she started bringing in the big dollars she got a piece of that pie. The thing that limits women in sports, and often men in porn might be this too, is consumer interest.

I think thats comforting. Some of my 3rd wave feminist acquaintances like to blame everything on the "patriarchy." I guess they're part of the problem if they keep buying march madness swag instead of products for women's college teams.

It is 100% consumer interest. Modeling is exactly the same. The highest paid female model made 31 times the amount the highest paid male model made in a year. ( 47 million to 1.5 million ).

Why aren't "slacktivists" up in arms about that, while they point out the wage gap?...

Because it absolutely blows their argument out of the water. It's a total reversal.

[–]ScowlEasy2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Some of my 3rd wave feminist acquaintances like to blame everything on the "patriarchy."

Fighting against "the patriarchy" is hard because you're fighting against something vague and general, the lines are blurry. It's like fighting against an idea (which is actually what they're kind of doing).

A big part of the "patriarchy" are societal perceptions of men/women; which are created, reinforced and rationalized by a huge web of interconnected variables beyond anyone's control.

That list includes: Advertisements, visual media (sitcoms anyone?), printed media, social media like facebook/twitter/reddit, education (what people are taught), social pressures from friends/family, fashion design (why don't women's clothes have pockets?), yogurt commercials, news broadcasters, religion, business CEOs, politicians... you get the idea. Pretty much anything that is a part of society or is able to influence it can be part of the patriarchy.

I'm not saying fighting the patriarchy or trying to change societal perceptions is bad; it's just that that huge interconnected web of variables can't be properly explained/described and condensed into one word (or even a paragraph) without losing something in the process. Unfortunately, this means that people can have good intentions but their application can be very flawed.

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it is about the product. there is more demand for women in porn so women get paid more. a man can't take a woman's place in porn because that would fundamentally change the product.

A man can't take a woman athlete's place on the team. A replacement would necessarily need to be woman. because the work forces are seperated in this way you can't compare the two positions. female athelete and male athlete are not the same job for this discussion. Female porn star and male porn star are not the same job for this discussion.

In terms of supply and demand, there are much fewer women willing to do porn. Supply of labor, not supply of products. Don't be thick.

I don't understand why you think I'm saying the wage gap is based on discrimination. I'm not. but your points are fucking stupid and nothing you're saying follows.

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It's similar to the complaint that women aren't featured as leads more often in movies and video games. Attention seeking women have of course turned it into a gender issue. The obvious problem is that women are generally less interested in action movies and video games so the industries are less motivated to invest in what they want.

This is where it gets stupid because their response is that women are only less interested because of how they are typically portrayed, so we have the "chicken or the egg" dilemma. This would be tough to solve for movies because of their extensive past relating back to live acting. Video games are a different story though, it wasn't long ago that you couldn't differentiate the gender of characters based on their looks and many popular video games didn't use humans. Is there any question whether or not men were generally more interested in video games back then?

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Tenure would be the only legal reason they weren't. If one has been there longer than the other.

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Frankly you'd be hard pressed to find any job at a specific company where two opposite genders who are doing the same work aren't paid almost the exact same (if not very close) if all there qualifications and experience are equal.

ikr. tbh, most wage gaps are because of job differences, education, and work experience. I don't think anyone expects a company to pay a man and woman equally if one has a college degree and the other only has work experience. One of them will make more than the other. This also applies to doctors making more than a level one tech support. There are many women doctors who make far more than a male level one tech support vice versa. It essentially comes down to job choice, education, and experience on how much a person is made.

To give an example with the same job title and role.

male with degree, certifications, and 10 years experience working at the company (not including other jobs)
female only with outside the company work experience.

Every company is going to pay the male more based on the experience, degree, and certifications. If the sex was reversed then the female would be the one making more.

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[–]dwarfboy17175 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"That you probably need to look for"

Dude I'm just a PhD student in astrophysics. Just because there exist more details and "possible explanations" for a wage gap than we can list in any given thread doesn't mean the economists who devote their lives to studying complex and difficult problems are incapable of taking all of that into account.

No model is perfect but experts who have spent their entire lives devoted to training themselves in studying difficult problems with nuance through the scientific methods.... those people have a general consensus that there is a gender-based bias in pay, all else accounted for.

That overall effect is smaller than 23% gap that news outlets parrot, but it's still meaningful and valid from an intensive data analysis perspective.

Complicated things are complicated, and dismissing them isn't going to contribute to a culture that searches for continual progress and reasonable solutions.

My two cents.

[–]Knowbody429 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]dwarfboy17175 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's not exactly how statistical studies are done. Statistical methods are very powerful in revealing trends, and while they can't always "prove" a specific cause, they can often disprove many hypotheses.

But let's get concrete, because here's the point: the consensus of the active, scientific, publishing economic community in this field is that there exists a marginal pay gap which cannot be well-explained by all of these potential nuances, and which is likely due primarily to bias (on the order of implicit association rather than intentional discrimination). Again, these things are complicated, and I'm not an expert in this field, but I am a weirdo who routinely takes the effort to read large bodies of dense research papers and has the experience to sort through the data in a meaningful way.

A decent starting point is this Stanford literature review, which is a little dated but was a then-great overview of many of the high-caliber papers showing (and trying to account for) this effect. If you only have time for a skim, the chart on page 5 of the PDF is interesting, as is the discussion on pages 5 and 6. (Note: even this review shows that the "adjusted" pay gap with all of these factors is about 91%, or a 9% difference.)

If you're really interested in the nitty gritty, a couple guys from Cornell just did a fantastic contemporary review of the field found here which concludes "research based on experimental evidence strongly suggests that discrimination cannot be discounted."

That's scientist speak for "it's very probably discrimination. It would be scientifically remarkable at this point if it weren't."

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I used to think the same until I got a hired as a Senior and discovered that my new raise after the probation period would put my pay check under my fellow fresh out of college male colleague.

We were both taken a back to learn that they offered a senior less - he was asking me to know what kidn of aspirations he could have in the company for promotion pourposes. When bringing this up to my boss, she said I needed to "catch up".

So whatever, I pulled the wage gap card to get my paycheck to be equal to a male in a lower position than me. Because simply pointing out that it was offered to me a raise after the probabtion period and now they were offering me less or that I was hired as a Senior and taking up more responsabilites etc etc... didnt work.

So sorry, but it happens, in just a stupid silly mkt job in a very liberal city in Europe. But it could be because I'm not from here and therefore they pray on the fact that I dont expect to earn more....so you can choose if it is because I'm immigrant or a woman.

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I believe that studies have proven otherwise

There's not. If you have it, post it.

My point is, there are studies for any specific stance.

It SEEMS like there's a shitton of articles supporting every conceivable story, there's surprisingly few studies.

There are a ton of ARTICLES which selectively take facts from the same 2 studies, and reinterpret, misquote, and exclude pieces of the study to make for a story that will get shared.

Who's to say that your sources are any more valid than mine?

You trace the source back to the well, and you see if the data in the study actually concluded the same things that the article you're reading did.

If there's no study linked to in the article, toss the article out.

I'm pretty sure that the raw data the menslib and MRA peeps are looking at is the same data that the Feminists peeps are looking at.

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Or a reason to remember the name

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Most of the 'pay gap' can be attributed to personal choices of women vs men, but some factors are simply hard to quantify. CONSAD did a very large study of about 150,000 men and women and found their adjusted pay gap to be between 4.8% and 7.1%. They did go on to say that there are statistically significant factors (as determined by other sources that are listed in the report) that they could not quantify at the time so were unable to determine what amount of the pay gap those would cover.

I hear a lot of people complain about the wage gap, but I never hear any discussion about possible solutions. Let's concede the notion that discrimination against female workers regarding pay does exist. What can we do to prevent this in a fair way?

My solution would be more open discussion regarding salaries. Force employers to explain why X person is paid more than Y person in the same position. In many cases this can be explained, but in those where it can't the employer would be forced to correct the gap or be taken to court over the matter.

[–]Just4yourpost 61 points62 points63 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]_cortex 64 points65 points66 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

When my ex was looking for a job, she came back from an interview and said they were going to hire her. She told me how much they were going to pay, so I asked her how much more she's going to ask for. I spent a week talking her into going back to the place and asking for more. Here's some reasons she used for not negotiating: "I'm satisfied with the original number, I don't need more", "But the original offer is competitive", "What if they don't want me anymore if I ask for more", "What if they'll expect more of me and I can't satisfy that anymore", etc.

After talking her into it she went back and got around 12% more. She probably could've gotten even more because they immediately gave her what she asked. (Note that it's not like the first offer was less than a man would've gotten - it was already above average)

Anyway, my point is, the situation is probably a lot more nuanced than "they're just waiting around for raises to approach them".

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[–]Klappa69 points 9 years ago [recovered] (27 children) | Copy Link

The wage gap is simply the median incomes of men and women working full time. It does not account for occupation or hours worked. It has been illegal since the 1960s to pay a woman a penny less for the same work. The wage gap does not exist in the way many feminists think it does. You will find no reliable research showing that men and women working the same job in a developed country earn a different amount. Taking into account the hours worked and occupation some research actually showed the wage gap to be less than 2 pennies per dollar.

[–]VillainousRP12 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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The original vague "studies" are basically considered common knowledge, at least around here, at this point in time. The onus is now on people who want to challenge that view to provide their accountable sources.

Initially, our current theory of gravity would have required sources to back up its existence. Nowadays it's common knowledge and if you wanted to refute it or propose an alternate theory, you need sources. You can't just say "well, 'gravity exists' is a positive claim, so YOU have to continually defend your sources to me over and over again to prove why my crackpot theory of why it's false isn't true" and expect to win arguments about it.

So, it's generally been accepted that the wage gap is a fundamental misunderstanding of the statistics surrounding pay differences. Prove it's not, if you have material that supports that conclusion then.

[–]VillainousRP-7 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]dslybrowse14 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know those are the raw numbers that everyone has issues with directly attributing to the wage gap myth, right? Like you're basically pointing to the 77% number and going "see!? the 77% thing does exist!!"

You are not accounting for ANY factors with that information, it's just raw data. This is literally the issue behind this and why it's so hard to stomp out, because apparently people like you can't accept rationalization and reasoning and only take that to be "attacks on stances we don't like".

Great, women made 60/78/85% of what men did in a given occupation in a given year. Now, care to look at time off work, overtime hours, aggressiveness of salary negotiation, years of experience, or god forbid individual's personal preferences?

It's hilarious that your post here is LITERALLY THE PROBLEM with this issue. I don't "care" either way about this issue - if women make less then they should be paid fairly, if they aren't then there's no problem. I have no preference to find out that the wage gap is a myth, there is no benefit to me if women are being underpaid. Just after years of randomly reading articles and studies on the topic it's pretty clear that the only reason the issue exists is because people keep looking at raw data like you just linked, and think it accounts for every aspect of an issue.

There's lots of information out there analysing the raw data, and it's universally drawing the conclusions that when you take into account various personal factors, there is no systemic wage gap issue.

http://commons.wikimannia.org/images/Gender_Wage_Gap_Final_Report_2009.pdf

The following report prepared by CONSAD Research Corporation presents the results of a detailed statistical analysis of the attributes that contribute to the wage gap and a synopsis of the economic research that has been conducted on the issue. The major findings are: There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. These variables include:

A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to pay less than full-time work.

A greater percentage of women than men tend to leave the labor force for child birth, child care and elder care. Some of the wage gap is explained by the percentage of women who were not in the labor force during previous years, the age of women, and the number of children in the home.

Women, especially working mothers, tend to value “family friendly” workplace policies more than men. Some of the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly, the percentage of women who work in the industry and occupation.

Research also suggests that differences not incorporated into the model due to data limitations may account for part of the remaining gap. Specifically, CONSAD’s model and much of the literature, including the Bureau of Labor Statistics Highlights of Women’s Earnings, focus on wages rather than total compensation. Research indicates that women may value non-wage benefits more than men do, and as a result prefer to take a greater portion of their compensation in the form of health insurance and other fringe benefits.

In principle, more of the raw wage gap could be explained by including some additional variables within a single comprehensive analysis that considers all of the factors simultaneously; however, such an analysis is not feasible to conduct with available data bases. Factors, such as work experience and job tenure, require data that describe the behavior of individual workers over extended time periods. The longitudinal data bases that contain such information include too few workers, however, to support adequate analysis of factors like occupation and industry. Cross-sectional data bases that include enough workers to enable analysis of factors like occupation and industry do not collect data on individual workers over long enough periods to support adequate analysis of factors like work experience and job tenure.

Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers.

Emphasis mine.

Just... think about what you're claiming. Women get paid less than men for equal work, simply because companies/managers/bigots can get away with it. If this was the case, why would companies ever hire men?? You're telling me they're altruistically paying men more than they have to, more than they could pay an equally qualified/dedicated/aggressive/experienced/personable woman in the same situation, just because? Just to "stick it to the bitches"?

What is this conclusion supposed to be based on? It's not based on statistics, it's not based on economics, it's not based on common sense.. it's not based in reality.

[–]VillainousRP1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Klappa6911 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So the reason I asked for your sources is not because I am lazy or incompetent of finding articles on PubMed but rather because it is difficult to answer if talking about different sources.

So the first source you linked https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289339 So it found a small difference between males and females but we need to note that not in every field did female practicians make less. And the difference in earnings was nowhere near 23% (note that my initial statement was mostly against the 77% of what men make) The study only focused on starting salaries, did not take into account some key parts like family. The study did not claim that there was discrimination that women are facing but rather that these differences are likely explainable by the fact that female practicians will prefer greater flexibility and family friendly options in their negotiations. Also the study is already almost 10 years old would be interesting to see how it has evolved.

The second source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26122400 Basically just says there is a small difference in earnings because the number of men who prioritize pay is much greater than the number of females. So if I'd like an explanation as to why it would be discriminatory that men prioritize pay and women flexibility

The third source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27528703 This study basically criticized the previous studies you linked because they were done through self reporting rather than objective data. The study also said that men are more likely to be in more lucrative fields. And again women made less in most fields but not all and the difference yet again was nowhere near 23%

[–]thesilent308 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Knowing not much about the subject at all but finding the conversation very interesting I followed this exchange up to this point. Haven't gone into this point, without looking in detail at the reports, I have to say it seems that the three publications very much invalidate the original claim: "You will find no reliable research showing that men and women working the same job in a developed country earn a different amount." And that the difference at most was something like pennies on average.

That I found quite startling and was interested in knowing if it was true. But in all cases, you seem to be acknowledging that there is research that shows there's in some cases a difference, with the caveat that it's nowhere near 23%, and that the reasons may not be discrimination but other things. Fine, but still, it seems to invalidate somewhat your original big claim: "You will find no reliable research showing that men and women working the same job in a developed country earn a different amount. "

[–]Klappa693 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]captaindorf8 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Arguments like this only trivialize actual wage gaps. The 2009 meta-analysis released by the U.S Department of Labor agrees with the poster you replied to. The 77 cents gap is a myth.

Instead of trying to disprove proof that it's a myth by nitpicking pubmed articles (one of which even hilariously starts its title with "A matter of priorities?"), isn't it more beneficial to focus on the ACTUAL gaps? To ask, "if it's not due to hours worked, age, experience, etc., then what's causing men to make 2-5 cents extra?" And even then people can start to really ask questions like if it's blind misogyny by employers or is it women’s supposedly inferior negotiating skills, any tons of other questions.

Like shit. The discussions in threads like this are never "how can we narrow down any specific causes and improve on them?", it's just "IM BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST STOP IT". You'd think women uninformed on the 77cents myth would be overjoyed to hear how it's completely made up.

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[–]SubtleMockery points 9 years ago* [recovered] (54 children) | Copy Link

The right question to ask is why aren't men, on average, taking flexible jobs that facilitate better family life, why aren't they getting paternity leave, why aren't they taking flex time at work

Because those jobs don't pay as much. Women are allowed to be the primary breadwinner, men are expected to be.

[–]bbraithwaite83 107 points108 points109 points 9 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

[–]Schweppesale points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Not all of us are expected to.

That's a bullshit statement and you know it.

[–]bbraithwaite832 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SubtleMockery points 9 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

Totally.

I mean, just pushing against being 16 hour/day labor wage slaves being bled dry for profit would be great, but that's also good.

[–]Hyteg 40 points41 points42 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Hyteg2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Being a full time student 40 hrs a week in addition to a full time worker for 40 hrs a week is not only irrelevant to the discussion (which is about having a job that can be combined with having a kid), but completely your choice. If you've already landed a job and you have a kid, it's irresponsible to start/continue a full time Major as well. If you are studying and have no money for a kid and still have one, it's A: poor planning; and B: your choice to keep studying while finding a full time job and raising a kid.

As for the "it's only a couple 16-hour days per week" argument; I think it's ridiculous you're trying to justify asking someone to work literally 94% of the time they don't sleep (assuming a normal person sleeps 7 hours a day) even one day in the week! My boss needed someone to take the pressure off because they thought he might go towards a burnout working 51 hours a week spread over 7 days!

If one of the justifications of two full time jobs is that some of the hours are spent on the weekend, it means you're normalizing having 0 days a week off. And given that Americans already seem to have normalized having 0 vacation days a year (compared to 25 here) it's pretty alarming that you expect people (including yourself) to work so much.

If any of your arguments are actually valid in your life (as in, you need two fulltime jobs to pay rent/baby stuff/food etc. on both the parents of the baby) the system is more than fucked.

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US labor laws aren't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. They are very robust and offer a ton of protections for workers, businesses, and the consumer. We also have a good social safety net for those that have issues, but there is some minor differences between states. All of these laws really came about during the industrial revolution and the push from labor unions.

Overall, much talk about the US and labor laws, welfare and the like are very exaggerated on Reddit. It's not perfect and there will always be adjustments to the laws, but on the macro-scale it works well and benefits the worker, consumer and the business owner.

I don't want to get too deep into this discussion because it will lead to the pros and cons of capitalism vs socialism, and the many nuances including GDP, population, multi-cultural vs homogeneous societies and much more. Broadly speaking, unions in the US have hurt more workers in the past 50 years than helped.

A small example is the UAW (United Auto Workers). Yes, they have pushed the benefits package for employees to astounding levels, but the massive increase in costs forced by unions have led GM, Ford, Chrysler to move more production outside the US thus removing many jobs from the market. It's also forced downsizing and more robotics/automation to replace the overly-expensive workers.

It's a balance between whats best for the company and best for the employee and unions tip the scales so much so that it hurts the company. Great idea that should never be forgotten, but it's wholly not needed in modern America.

[–]ZorglubDK1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ALargeRock2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree with your concerns, and share them as well. As I stated earlier, it's a balance.

Politicians possibly? But they are lobbied by the corporations, so the common worker would get little of a voice.

True and very valid but in the U.S., lobbying isn't restricted to just corporations. In other words, if there is enough people who feel concerned about ____, than part of your power as a citizen is elections and grouping together for your own lobby (protest). NRA, AARP, WWF (World Wildlife Foundation) and countless other special interest groups lobby congress. In a way it's sort of like a union, but it doesn't get in between business and workers. Coupled with our current laws and code, it's quite effective.

As for pay, personal time, raises that is mostly supply and demand. There is a minimum for all of that, and it can be added on to by city, county, and state regulations too. However, the standards are low enough that it allows for a lot of wiggle room between a wide array of industries and professions and local government administration.

Ultimately I see the current stance of US laws, regulations, and codes for employees, businesses, and consumers as erring on the side of liberty. Competition breeds excellence and there is no finer proof than the nature of evolution.

(See! This is why I didn't want to go too deep into it! lol)

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Yeah, also a huge issue - every father would rather have the mother at home to take care of the child, especially in the early months. No guy is going to chill on leave while the mother is still recovering. But after a point, the mother is healed and wants to return to work, and the father deserves a chance to spend time with his child. This is usually about twelve weeks into the child's life.

A lot of countries that have paid family leave (fun fact: the US is the only one without paid maternity leave, except Papua New Guinea) give the mother her time off, then give the father the same amount of time off, to be taken whenever he chooses. So, the parents can spend a couple weeks at home together right after child birth, the mother stays off for another 2 months or so, and then the father comes back so the mother can return to work if she desires. However, because of what you've described, they actually make it so only the father can take his leave, to incentivize fathers caring for children. They do this by offering an additional portion of shared leave - if the father takes his allotment, the couple gets more leave, to distribute as they see fit - this shared leave pretty much always goes to the mother.

I'm getting long winded, so my point is: everyone is better off when both parents get time for leave. The mother has time to heal, the father has time to bond with his child instead of working all the time, and the family is stronger because of it.

[–]girlwithswords 36 points37 points38 points 9 years ago* (28 children) | Copy Link

You can ask the same of women. Why aren't they getting more dangerous jobs, working longer hours, or taking fewer benefits. The answer is the same. Because the over all priorities of men and women are different. You can say it's because of the way they are taught, or just because boys tend like trucks and girls like to help people, whatever. Nurture vs nature. I think you'll find it is somewhere in between.

Regardless of why they choose it, they do. And it is no one else business why they choose those things. If women want to make more they can either agree to v work just as hard as men, or... We'll there is no or unless they try getting employers to pay women more just because.

I say this as a single mom who worked my ass off to raise my kids because my ex refused to pay child support. I didn't bitch about it, I was grateful I was able to get a job, go to school, and make sure my children did their homework. Not everyone can do what I did, but we all have choices to make. And those choices are ours to bare.

[–]Alexnader-7 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]girlwithswords21 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We already freely choose what we want to do. I think it's patronizing to tell women they aren't choosing what they want just because they aren't conforming to what someone else thinks is best for them. Isn't that just as bad as patriarchy pushing for no women in the workforce?

But if I choose to be a stay home mom shouldn't I be able to without being treated as a traitor to my gender? Because that is exactly what ive been told. I chose to be a stay home mom for years, and I'm glad I did it. It meant I joined the workforce late, but it was worth it. It means I make less then most men my age, but again, it was worth it.

And just think about it a second.... More women graduate from college than men, yet they make less? Could it possible be that more women graduate from things like veterinary school, nursing and gender studies while men are more likely to go into stem and business? Or is it just because patriarchy?

Forgive me if I don't subscribe to the feminist view that I am not as capable as my male counterparts and need special privileges to get ahead. And everyone, boys and girls, has been told since the 80's that they can be anything they want. We all know it. But maybe some of us are more interested in family and free time, or having a fulfilling job, than money.

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Man all I want is for men and women in all workplaces (where feasible) to be able to choose flexible working arrangements that fit their desired lifestyles without judgement. I don't even identify as a feminist and this is coming from someone who studied liberal arts as one of his degrees in uni.

Totally agree with that.

I don't know where you're getting this "gender traitor feminism" stuff from.

My point was that women make choices that cause them to earn less, and forcing (or encouraging) them to stop following their dreams and start doing whats best for their gender is a sucky way to do things.

And the "traitor to your gender" comment is something I have been told multiple times by feminists. They say being a stay home mom isn't a job, and you're conforming to patriarchal norms, and things like that. It's an old tired argument that amounts to "if you aren't doing whats good for women then you're a bad woman."

Choice should be just that, choice.

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I bring this up every time this debate hits the table because even though it's anecdotal, it is representative of a larger experience of most women in my field that I have spoken to.

It's unwise to ignore societal influence on choice. If I had decided at 16-19 that I wanted to fix cars for a living the backlash I hit with my family and some of my friends would have absolutely detracted me from doing it. Assuming I did say "fuck all of you, I do what I want" and went to tech school anyway, I would have been met with the same shit of an undervalued voice, unwarranted and uninvited sexual jokes and harassment, and rumors that I was servicing my instructors sexually for favor (which I was not. I just got on with them, like plenty of the guys did as well, and I had excellent grades.) And younger me would have been trampled over by that and maybe would have left.

I'm lucky I made a decision at my quarter-life crisis when my stubbornness was at an all-time peak. I hadn't lived with my parents for many years and their cries of "you'll get hurt. You'll get harassed. Only butch women do that work " (last one is an actual quote by my dad) didn't hold as much value to me as they would have were I younger/more impressionable. And the bullshit at school I was old enough to have a voice to handle and confront head-on.

But these things are still exasperating to deal with there is a reason women don't gravitate towards more typically male-dominated (and especially blue collar which contrary to popular opinion can be very fruitful in payment) and it isn't just as simple as "they choose not to". Influence cannot be ignored, and it plays a large role in those choices.

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If you worked just as hard as the men, then studies show that you would not get paid quite as much. Research has shown that employers offer a lower salary to women with children, while offering more money to men with children. Also, women with children are less likely to be promoted even when working just as hard because people subconsciously assume that you don't want more time away from the kids. In addition, you have to remember that up until recent decades, most women did not have serious careers. That means that the corporate environment is built in a way that suits men who have stay-at-home wives that take care of household duties. Now that things are changing, there should be adjustments that allow both parents to work while also taking care of the children. Studies show that many hours are wasted when employees are forced to work strict hours, and that productivity rises when people can go home early when they've finished their work for the day. Companies that allow more freedoms (like letting parents leave in the middle of the day to pick up kids) have higher employee retention rates and more productive workers. You shouldn't assume that the workplace is at its most productive form currently. I'm not saying women need to get paid more "just because". I'm saying that women can have better opportunities to pursue their goals if the workplace was not catered to men.

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Regardless of why they choose it, they do.

The entire feminist discussion about the wage gap is not trying to trick everyone into thinking women should be paid more for doing less work, but why they are choosing less work in the first place. And the answer is because women in general actually do just as much necessary work as men, it's just that their efforts are more expended more in the home and raising children, which aren't valued the same was as the labor performed in the economy. We ask why that is, and what could we as a society do to improve things? I've found that when you break it down to that issue, people on both sides of the aisle support things like guaranteed parental leave and subsidized childcare.

I say this as a single mom who worked my ass off to raise my kids because my ex refused to pay child support. I didn't bitch about it, I was grateful I was able to get a job, go to school, and make sure my children did their homework. Not everyone can do what I did, but we all have choices to make. And those choices are ours to bare.

I can see that you're proud of yourself for being able to support your children without your ex's help, which is fine, but honestly, you should have "bitched" about it...or whatever you would call taking your ex to court for it. That money isn't supposed to be for you, it's supposed to be for your children to improve their lives, and there's no shame in other women making the choice to "bitch about it" and use that money for their kids.

[–]girlwithswords2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The entire feminist discussion about the wage gap is not trying to trick everyone into thinking women should be paid more for doing less work, but why they are choosing less work in the first place.

Are you listening to the same feminists? Because that is not a discussion I have ever heard. Whenever the idea of personal choice is brought up in debates over the wage gap they start talking about glass ceilings and patriarchal reasons for women being overlooked, or denied raises while the men are able to move forward.

And besides, what you, and I, are describing is an EARNINGS gap, not a wage gap. That 77 cents on a dollar that Obama, and every feminist, or armchair activists quotes is based on total earnings by men and women, and doesn't take into account time worked, job titles, etc. But when you go to feminist protests that isn't what they say. They quote the 77 cents and believe, really believe, that they are probably making less then the men at their job because woman.

Even this article that does show the difference between wage gap and earnings, then goes into say there is still a wage gap of 8% when you amount for hours, experience, etc, and it's because of gender bias. They even go so far as to say that when the mix shifts (I.E. More women than men are hired when it use to be the other way) that the wages for that job go down, because women not because the business is trying to cut costs and men are less likely to settle for a lower paying job....

Even if there is a wage gap of 8% as this article says, that is still close enough that it can be explained by choices. Choosing to stay with a company you're comfortable with instead of finding a higher paying one. Choosing to take time off, or skip certain events that would get you further because you would rather be home. And yet still the majority of people out there believe the 77% wage gap myth.

I can see that you're proud of yourself for being able to support your children without your ex's help, which is fine, but honestly, you should have "bitched" about it...or whatever you would call taking your ex to court for it.

I did put in for child support. There were complications, and it took two years to finally get him served. But the fact was that for two years I made more money than he did, and I wasn't in a hurry to ruin his life "because its for the children."

That's a bs attitude. I made enough to support them, he was trying to get on his feet after the divorce, I gave him time to do so. And when he was on his feet again I asked for child support. That was reasonable for both of us, and the children.

There are so many men out there who are in financial ruin because of our child support system. Or in jail because they just can't afford it, or are forced to pay for children that aren't theirs. It's purpose may be to help the children, but it is not well designed, and not fair to most men in any way shape or form.

When someone I knew told the courts he was about to go bankrupt and be out on the street because of child support payments what did the court say? Go get a second job. And when you have the second job we'll raise your child support payment. Didn't matter that he had three kids at home to support, this one child he had that didn't live at home needed the child support.

Child support is a good idea, and beneficial, but it isn't always done in a humane way for all parties involved.

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Men, as backed by evolutionary psychology, seek out women to fornicate with. Their instincts kick in, making them more likely to find it difficult to remain in monogamous relationships. They also can be more prone to be rapists, as evidenced by statistics where they are the majority of rapists. Men are also heavily controlled by their hormones, thus making them more aggressive and violent. This can be evidence by looking at who in the world has committed the majority of murder, wars, and crimes.

It's not their fault though. They are simply controlled largely by instincts, as evolutionary psychology points out. It is not like humans have developed higher cognitive capabilities and we still shit in the woods.

Like I've said, I've talked to men, and men around me agreed: they are more interested in money than interpersonal relationships between them and their child.

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Taking my home country, Sweden, as an example of a country where women have both the freedom and are encouraged to work in whatever field they want and still, largely, end up in the same jobs it isn't as simple an explanation as "personal liberty". Equality in the workforce is a lot like trying to drive a car through mud. The more legislation and media focus on the issue the more backlash and hate is generated but without any media focus or legislation we won't move forward. We're on the verge today of hitting critical mass, the generation below looks to be the first one where girls are as likely as boys to have had an adult of their gender in their lives with a career. A role model of sorts that helps prove that women in fact (obvious, but not always to a child, and their perception is super important in shaping what they want to be and strive for while growing up and choosing schools etc.) can be leaders, engineers, scientists or have other well paid jobs that historically have been male dominated. On the flip side most boys also grow up knowing of male adults in jobs traditionally favored by women such as child care, nurse or teacher which helps them feel that that is something open to them as well. Purely an anecdote but my childhood friend, the only one in my circle of friends not ending up as an engineer, who choose to be a pre-school teacher had the courage to do so largely because his father had changed careers later in life to teach kids. Without that influence the general negative stereotype that men in child care positions aren't to be trusted probably would've stopped him from going down that path.

I do however agree with the OP sentiment that wages are a poor metric for workforce equality. We also need to consider other factors such as the ones the male horse is carrying. In my very humble opinion I think the workforce situation is worse for men than women. Why? Because men are largely denied the flexibility needed to care for and get to spend time with their children, largely take on much more dangerous tasks and while that means more pay it is rarely worth but the fact that they are men with a "choice" there is little pressure on the employers to fix the working conditions. It is also super sad that men are denied working in care giving jobs due to negative stereotypes which aren't just sexist but extremely demeaning, such as you're gay if you want to work as a interior decorator or dancer or a child predator if you want to work in a kindergarten or effeminate if you want to work with caring for the elderly and handicapped etc. The stereotyping against females is a lot easier to disprove, such as females aren't smart enough to be engineers etc. and there is much more media focus on it meaning a workplace wouldn't dare discriminating against women in that way today.

I'm sorry for the mega rant. I just dislike the off hand implication that women freely choose the less paying, feminine, jobs because that completely misses that we as a society have shaped the notion of what a female should work in and it is our responsibility to reshape that notion so men can work with children and care giving and women from a young age see IT or engineering as a just as valid career path as librarian or nurse.

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Or maybe because those jobs pay 23% less

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I'm fully willing to concede it's an american thing. I was just surprised it's not common around the world. But since I see you tried to push this abortion of a point as an argument and not an observation I guess I'll address it.

First, it's only illegal in California, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. 4 fucking states out of 50 is your ace in the hole? 4 fucking states out of 50 undermines the entire existence of ladies night? It pains me to think you actually thought that was a point worth making.

Second, I'm not even saying ladies nights are a bad thing. I'm saying ladies nights are indicative of the kind of supply and demand in regards to men and women in dating.

Third, becuase you only attacked a point you percived as weak and ignored everyting else that was said, here's a nifty link to a primary source that further proves my point. and here's a second

[–]Owenh11 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you think maybe i didnt mention your other points about dating, because shock horror, i agree with you? I asked for clarification on what you said about free drinks for women in bars because I hadn't seen it before, but even admitted what I said was anecdotal...

I would also like to say that yes I do think that because 4 states ruled that these nights were illegal, it undermines the entire shitty system. The few states that have legalised cannabis have an incredible income source, less drink driving incidents and a fast growing economy. It makes those states which are so vehemently opposed it look idiotic, just as I think that the 4 states that have made it illegal to discriminate against make the rest look idiotic in comparison. When something has net positive benefits such as a growing economg or the fact that dating norms are less skewed in favor of women then yeah, it does undermine the others.

[–]Owenh11 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you think maybe i didnt mention your other points about dating, because shock horror, i agree with you? I asked for clarification on what you said about free drinks for women in bars because I hadn't seen it before, but even admitted what I said was anecdotal...

I would also like to say that yes I do think that because 4 states ruled that these nights were illegal, it undermines the entire shitty system. The few states that have legalised cannabis have an incredible income source, less drink driving incidents and a fast growing economy. It makes those states which are so vehemently opposed it look idiotic, just as I think that the 4 states that have made it illegal to discriminate against men make the rest look idiotic in comparison. When something has net positive benefits such as a growing economg or the fact that dating norms are less skewed in favor of women then yeah, it does undermine the others.

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I don't care about the feminists that aren't a problem. The feminists that are a problem are a fairly big problem and people refuse to address them and instead offer #notall excuses. Okay. I'll concede #notall. Now what? can we address them now? You're saying not all feminists are bad, I'm saying almost all the slander and negative attention men's rights get is from feminists. the two are not exclusive. That slander results in no platforms. Imagine that, being called a rapist and not being able to defend yourself because "I don't want to give a platform to a rapist."

That fear is the result of fear mongering. You don't understand; we don't get accusations of being conservatives or status quo warriors or that we're insensitive, we get accusations of being literal nazis and literal rapists. We get unironic accusations from fairly mainstream sources that we are literally saying "if you would just give us sex we wouldn't have to rape you" and that we're litterally campaigning for the legal right to rape women. these accusations are leveled at us by people with significant pull on a local level and they use feminism to be basically untouchable. The accusations I just told you about were spewed on national, tax paid television, and the same college that employed her fired a man for having the audacity to wave a sign saying feminism is cancer.

If it was nobodies on tumblr or nobodies on /socialism I wouldn't care, but you lose your fucking job for criticizing feminism. You loose your fucking job for criticizing the institutions that are petitioning to erode due process and have been making progress on that front for the past 20 years.

So, sorry, I don't think your comment here was constructive.

[–]bbraithwaite831 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You've said a lot and i want to respectfully reply but at the moment i dont have the time to unpack it. I will come back to this. For now, i want to know why you dont think a sign that reads "feminism is cancer" is a problem? This is what destroys any kind of work between the two sides.. a sign or comment like that is literally, literally saying that the woman's equal rights movement is a plague of death on our soceity. Fuck that and fuck that guy. Maybe he's trying to make a point about the bullshit feminists (or feminazis as they were called before the men's rights movement even existed) but that's not what his sign conveys to millions of decent feminists that would support a mens rights cause. What is happening is in our mind we are allowing the worst of each side to take the dominant position like the few load mouth assholes speak for the whole bunch. They should be ignored if anything. We need to stop the war between us and build bridges instead of lighting fires. (fuck now im late god damn it!) all the best

[–]This_is_my_phone_tho1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What you're referring to is called nutpicking. pointing to some sperg or some feminazi and saying they represent the movement. I think the term is very useful for the conversation so we don't have to describe the phenomenon every time we want to talk about it.

I know I said I don't want to weigh the pros and cons of each side, but I think a sign saying "feminism is cancer" is orders of magnatude more benign than this. And, again, he got fired for the sign. this woman has authority, she's not some loon. I'd be willing to ignore her if she was some tumblr poster but she has a real effect on easily hundreds of lives. I'm willing to concede that the sign is abrasive and probably not constructive but I don't think the two are really comparable. we're talking about "you're a literal rapist" and "you're toxic." You can't say feminism is literally cancer, it's a metaphor. You can, however, slander someone by saying they're literally saying "have sex with me so I don't rape you." . I also think at this point calling feminists an equal right's movement is kind of misleading. Feminists are starting to make headway toward tax free sanitary products but we're still chopping off forskins.

I'll also say I have criticisms for mainstream feminism too. it's not just the nuts I have a problem with. A lot of the legal reform isn't something you can just pin on the feminazis.

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Is someone that you work for as a salaried professional allowed to say to you "you must come in and work this weekend without pay or you are fired" ? If so then fair enough that's a discussion that should be had.

I'm not against changing our work environment through collective and legislative action. It happens all the time like you said. But in order for it to happen, people have to make it happen. And I am unconvinced that enough people want these changes to happen right now.

I am also unconvinced we should rush to introduce policy to "encourage" people to make choices they otherwise wouldn't, on the basis that allowing the government that kind of precedent in the law opens a lot more doors to more sinister social engineering.

Given the opportunities and challenges of modern life it makes sense to bring in flexibility as one of those changes.

In your opinion. And in my opinion too. But perhaps not in the majority's opinion.

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I was just talking about the guaranteed stuff

You gotta fight for this shit man, no masters!

Americans did fight for that shit. For a very long time. But the fight we faced here wasn't like the one you faced in your country

While all western countries experienced violence during their labor movements corporations' and the government's response here was uniquely bloody. American workers had the unfortunate necessity to on numerous occasions take up arms against corporate strike breakers and police. In fact the first and only time the US mainland has been bombed by aircraft was during the Battle of Blair Mountain when the coal mining company hired private pilots to drop bombs on strikers

My point is that it set the tone for how workers rights struggles would be treated. A lot of people forget or are unaware that there were two red scares. The first started in 1917 and featured socialists and labor activists having their voting rights stripped, being imprisoned, and often killed. Eugene Debs won 4% of the votes in the 1920 presidential election as the socialist party nominee.

While in prison.

Labor activists have been spied on, harassed, and sabotaged by the FBI as standard procedure since the agency began. For decades J. Edgar Hoover denied the mafia even existed and instead insisted that leftists were the greatest threat to America and focused on that.

In the 1950s unionization peaked at around 1 in 3 workers. Today it's less than 8 in 100.

We're stuck so far in the past on workers rights because of massive concerted efforts by the government and corporations. And I don't personally believe that's likely to ever change. Americans don't have the conviction or the courage needed to change it anymore. Much less the stomach for the kind of struggle it would require.

[–]Alexnader-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FuckTripleH1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well Sanders didn't even win the primary and Trump is about as anti-worker as you can get...

And a pro-worker president means shit all. Companies have so much leeway when it comes to union busting. At will employment laws mean that they can fire you at any time without citing a reason, which in practice results in companies firing you if they hear you even took a pamphlet from a union organizer in the parking lot.

Companies like walmart are well know for shutting down entire stores, firing all the workers, and setting up again in a different town just because the employees talked about unionizing.

They used to have fresh meat departments in walmarts. 1 meat department team in 1 single store voted to form a union and walmart fired every meat department employee in the entire country and switched to frozen meat only.

Every new employee in every major retail company like target are forced to watch videos like this when they get hired

NAFTA has made it even easier for corporations to move factories to Mexico whenever there's a risk of workers organizing.

A pro worker president is useless because presidents don't craft legislation, only congress can do that. And right now both houses of Congress and the majority of state governments are republican controlled.

Believe me there are still socialists here like me who miss the international labor movement like a missing limb but it's dead and it's never coming back. They spent 70 years killing it. It would take at least 70 years to bring it back.

But that will never happen because Americans are mostly cowards without beliefs or convictions, boot lickers and quasi-fascists, or (worst of all) spineless liberals who co-opt leftist rhetoric while silently allowing corporate whores to run the country because they're too busy worrying about a white actress playing an anime character or whatever dumb shit they've concerned themselves with. More concerned with fetishizing compromise than actually changing anything.

Meanwhile left of center politicians like Bernie misuse words like socialism and further obfuscate it's meaning. Thus guaranteeing that even the socialists in the political discussion aren't actually socialists. We don't have a seat at the table and we've been so effectively silenced that now even college kids who call themselves socialists are still capitalists

This country killed the proud leftist tradition it had decades ago and it'll damn well make sure it stays dead.

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All hail super_Ag, arbiter and diviner of men's choices.

Show me the man who didn't choose to work for a specific employee.

I chose to work in a company that has flexible work provisions and I'm sure many others would love the opportunity to do so.

I'm sure "many" others would. But others would choose a less flexible job for more pay, better benefits, a better path to promotion. With just about everything, there is a trade-off. This explains the majority of why women earn less in aggregate than men. Women tend to gravitate toward safer jobs, more flexible hours, economic stability, less physically intensive jobs or more time off. The trade-off for these accommodations tends to be lower pay (as there is more supply of workers who desire those benefits). Men are more willing to sacrifice a little safety, flexibility, stability, physical exertion and time off in exchange for higher pay and better chances at promotion (which leads to higher pay). You could probably get paid more to work at a company with less flexible work provisions, but you choose not to. Others choose higher pay.

But again you don't like the choices other people make, so you declare it a problem and set out to solve the problem you just invented. You are actually declaring yourself the arbiter and diviner of men's choices, as you are casting judgement on their choices because they're not the choices you would make. I'm saying that people have agency and are free to choose whichever benefit they deem most important, whether that be higher pay or more flexible provisions.

[–]Alexnader-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All hail super_Ag, arbiter and diviner of men's choices.

Show me the man who didn't choose to work for a specific employee.

Lol, pretty sure the majority of workers would prefer to be doing something else. Education, socio-economic status and skill are the major limitations in that regard. Might as well give these individuals some flexibility in the job they deemed "good enough for what they could get".

I chose to work in a company that has flexible work provisions and I'm sure many others would love the opportunity to do so.

I'm sure "many" others would. But others would choose a less flexible job for more pay, better benefits, a better path to promotion.

Por que no las dos muchacho? That's my whole point. You shouldn't have to choose. Sick leave isn't a choice (not where I live), flex leave could be the same.

[–]super_ag2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol, pretty sure the majority of workers would prefer to be doing something else.

Oh, I'd prefer to never have to work again or ever worry about money. I didn't say what men preferred. I talked about what they chose to do. Even if your choices are limited, you still make choices. Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and tells them to go into a business, fill out an application, go to an interview and agree to work for a specific salary and benefits. All that is done voluntarily and by choice. You seem to think that if people don't get their dream job, they didn't chose the job they have.

Por que no las dos muchacho?

Why not both? Because typically jobs with flexible work provisions have more people who desire those jobs. The more supply of workers you have who want a position, you can generally expect less pay for it. It's basic economic law. Now, there are a few ideal jobs that offer flexibility and high pay, but that usually depends on the employee having a very unique skill set where there is hardly any competition.

You shouldn't have to choose.

Some would say you shouldn't have to work, that your life should be spent pursuing your dreams and leisure. But unfortunately in the real world, you do. Also in the real world, benefits come with a cost. Flexibility costs you pay. Time off costs pay and possibly promotion. You seem to be calling for government to step in and regulate to businesses what compensation (in terms of benefits, flexibility, etc.) it has to offer its employees. So you want to take choice away from people. I love how you accuse me of being a bit of an authoritarian when you want to use the force of government to choose for people the terms of their employment.

[–]lackingsaint1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]super_ag1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Who cares why? Why is it important? There are dozens of factors to consider when choosing a job. Just about every benefit has a trade-off at some sort. Want more flexible hours? Then you can expect lower pay. Want more job security? Then don't take a job that depends on commission, and you'll have a steadier paycheck, but it might be lower than that of a salesman. Want more time off for vacation or spending time with family? Then don't be surprised when your coworker who doesn't gets the promotion instead of you.

In general, men are willing to give up a little safety, job-security, stability, leisure time and flexibility (among other things) in exchange for higher pay and better chances at promotion. Women, in general, tend to value time with family more than men, so they tend to seek out jobs that are more flexible, stable and safer. There is higher demand for those jobs, so the pay is naturally going to be lower.

[–]lackingsaint0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]super_ag2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why is it important?

Just because you want to make vague statements justifying wage inequality doesn't mean others don't exist who give a shit about actually figuring it out.

I'm not justifying "wage inequality" (which is just another way of saying different people earn different amounts of money). I'm explaining the mythical "gender wage gap" that is portrayed as being part of discriminating against womyns. The whole 77% gap can be explained by the decisions both sexes tend to make based on what the different sexes value. I don't see it as a problem that needs to be solved or researched into why it exists. Generally, people who work harder, in more dangerous conditions, with less stability, less desirable hours and take less time off make more money. Want to make more money? Then take one of those jobs. Want all of those benefits in lieu of more money? There are those jobs too. People have agency. I don't care what their criteria for expressing that agency is.

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So women should be treated preferentially in custody battles too right? Coz they inherently like child care more so they should be better at it.

This is where the conversation breaks down in every subject. You start pretending I'm saying something outrageous because you're reading my comment looking for it to be wrong. When I say we shouldn't be forcing people to do things they don't want to do you'd have to close your eyes, spin in a circle, and fall down a flight of stairs to somehow decide I was saying women should be treated preferentially in custody battles. I bet it seemed crazy to you when you read it, because it is crazy, and that's why it's not what I was saying. Next time you read something and it seems like the other person is crazy, try actually reading what they said and paying attention. It'll save time for you and for them.

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Okay I live in Canada, for example you can't roof all year, so in order to not starve or have to find a temp job during the winter, you need to hustle during the warmer months. That means working long work weeks. You can't just hire more guys, only so many fit on the roof until they actually start getting in the way. So if I'm a business owner, I'm not going to hire 30 guys to each work short little shifts and rotate, because it's too much of a headache to deal with. Also when you add too many people onto a job, the lazy ones take advantage and get paid to do almost nothing, I've seen this happen so many times. What happens when every job pays minimum wage, and only minimum wage? What will you do, just go on welfare? Then if everyone did that they would scrap it. People should be payed according to what they're worth .

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Good point, though the comic still doesn't exclude his points entirely. And to add, hopefully with time fathers will take more time off, as paternity leaves become more socially accepted and such, and get to take a more active role in their children's lives. Thereby "reducing" the wage gap to some extent.

Regarding the second point, I always find that kind of a muddled topic, because at what point do you take into account free will? Where do the inherent differences in preferences between men and women lie? Not to say that there's some massive difference between the genders, but they do exist.

Still worth discussing, of course, but it's not exactly a quantifiable metric, ya know?

The biggest issue I have with the whole wage gap debate is that there's all this time getting spent arguing over semantics on how women get payed less, when there are gigantic issues with the whole system that don't regard the genders, but rather society as a whole.

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So everything is the fault of our wicked society and can't be explained any other way? If employers automatically low-ball any and every single candidate with the expectation that they won't negotiate, and women in general don't take them up on that, that's not "abusing a characteristic of their biology," that's women being unaware that they should negotiate for things like pay. It's like saying that females who flirt with men to get what they want is "abusing a biological characteristic." No, it's dumbasses being dumbasses. Employers are free to low-ball candidates, it's the smart way to hire and save money, if it's not ideal for the person being hired then they can walk. Women are free to talk and act however they want to men, it's on the men as to whether or not they'll fall for a little giggling and arm-touching.

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[–]Felixer867 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's definitely fair, and I think this study brings to light an important issue. However, I don't think it's infallible or conclusive. The article, written by the PI on the paper, links only to that one paper when it mentions studies relevant to the subject (women being penalized for negotiating). Furthermore, and I don't have access to the full paper which would tell more, but she doesn't mention how much larger that penalizing gap between men and women is. Another point to consider is that the female evaluators unanimously punished negotiators, which is telling as to the mindset that females have when it comes to negotiation in general. That being said, I do feel that the study is probably correct in its assertion, and although it doesn't necessarily indicate abuse, I do concede that it's a societal problem that puts women at a disadvantage.

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Yeah fuck foxconn!

Posted from my iPhone

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[–]randomcoincidences 48 points49 points50 points 9 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

On the other hand when I used to work in commercial construction we had women carpenters. They could do good work, measure and cut just like anyone else...

but my job was physical, sometimes extremely physical. The amount of times the girls came over to swap tasks with us because they were too heavy or hard for them was ridiculous, especially because at that time, they got paid more than me due to 'schooling' and 'experience' (they apprenticed out of high school and I didnt). Now, that said I am more than capable of doing anything they can do with the added benefit of I can easily lift and work hard all day long.

When we'd discuss wage discrepancies for women vs men I said in our industry as a worker grunt, men should make a few dollars an hour more because we produce more and are less restricted in what we can do due to biology but if its a management position or something where physiological differences play no part, there shouldnt be a difference at all.

They agreed and I don't see a problem with this. Guys on average go into higher paying harder work jobs with longer hours and less enjoyable working conditions and it reflects in pay.

The wage gap doesnt exist in the office world for the most part.

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You realize your argument says that men deserve more pay for the same job and the same responsibilities, meaning both would do the same work the woman just may take two minutes longer right? That's an unfair idea to have. If it was up to me all pay would be like the military, equal in all areas. Your ideas is sexist unfortunately. If they both have the same job doing the same thing and both accomplish the same task they deserve the same pay. Almost all heavy lifting is done with team work to save your back and if you don't and try to macho it you'll be out of your job by 40. Same job same pay period, men should get the same benefits (paternity leave) as women. Period. Let's do it like the military and make it completely fair so we're an equal society. Does a weaker man or a man with an injury toughing thru it deserve less pay?

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If you're both hired to produce 10 an hour and you're hired on a salary or hourly basis, not per product (which is basically every job in the us, I don't know many people that are paid by product produced) and a woman produces 10 an hour and you produce 12 an hour or say they produce 13 an hour and you produce 15 an hour, you both should be paid the same because you're both fulfilling your commitment. I'm talking real world here, not hypothetical. I'm all for men getting the same benefits as women, but this idea that you push someone down it doesn't make you taller. We should strive for equality and this feels more like what we accuse hardcore third wave feminist of, this isn't wanting equality it's wanting special treatment, you're both hired to do a job, you both do the job to the standard, maybe the guy does lift twice as much but the job was done to standard you both deserve the same pay. Again this is real world not hypothetical.

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Going to the store to get groceries for the day and a normal days worth of groceries is extremely uncomfortable for my girlfriend while it doesnt make much of a difference for me.

A man lifting 20kg vs a woman lifting 20kg is one dragging it along the ground vs casualy walking with it in one hand.

Fuck off with your shitty arguments. Women are not strong. You believing your own words is like me believing I have boobs and feeling discriminated if you dont agree. Its basic fucking biology.

E for knowledge. Maybe you should actualy study for the next exam?

Therefor, a woman with a little bit of motivation/more natural drive can easily outperform an average man.

You are exactly the kind of person I hate. You dont fight for equal rights, you're just trying to gas the jews here, you female Nazi.

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I believe that if a woman is doing the same amount of work as a man on the same job, they should both be paid the same amount.

What a groundbreaking thought. Someone please give this man a Nobel prize.

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They are paid the same. The wage gap is a myth. There are dozens of laws against wage discrimination and the only "proof" of the wage gap is statistical from studies that don't account for all factors.

Accounting for all factors, there is a VERY small wage gap, but it's believed to be due to the fact that men are proven to be more likely to ask for a raise than women. This is possible because we engrave this idea into women's minds of the wage gap, so they are more satisfied with lower pay and aren't willing to ask for a raise because they are "lucky that they get what they have" (Note, studies have shown that women are more satisfied with lower paying jobs than men. This could be a factor in why women ask for raises less frequently. However, this statistic could also be in part an aftereffect of old US culture, where women stayed home and the men were the primary or sometimes only source of income, so it's possible they are happy with a lower wage job because they are a supporting income and not the primary income.)

Also, just to add something so you don't think I'm some kind of woman hating loon: This comic is fucking stupid even if the wage gap were true, and if anything women have it way worse because they get dick for their maternity leave, and we're one of 2 fucking nations in the world without federal paid maternity leave. It's fucking ridiculous. No wonder so many women don't work when they barely get any time off when they suddenly have a living being that relies on them 24/7 when they can get as low as 6 weeks paid time off despite a baby needing constant attention from their mother for much, much longer than that.

[–]jbrux862 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree that women should make the same as men for the "exact" same job. But I'm not sure you understand what the picture is saying.

It says the only reason their is a perceived wage gap is because of the difference in job choices and conditions of the jobs men and women choose.

This issue has been a heavily misinformed issue for some time now. When people look at the actual studies being done and stop listening to people yelling without proof we will all be in a better place. Currently women make about 95% of what men make if you look at the exact same job.

Example of an exact same job is 11th grade physics teacher.

Not an example of exact same job, is teacher.

Women are much more likely to choose early childhood education than men are. Because of this men make more than women when we look at teachers as a whole, as early education pays less.

Same idea with doctors. Men our more likely to be surgeons, who are among the highest paid doctors. So if we look at doctors men make more again. But if you look at Male and Female Surgeons of the same type "neuro" the gap shrinks to a tiny margin again.

Sadly I'm on my phone so I can't link the articles, but google, read, and question what you read.

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Of course, but they are. In fact, that's the law since 1963.

The "wage gap" is the difference in average yearly incomes across all working women and all working men. It's mostly due to 3 factors:

Field of work. Men tend to chose higher paying fields of study such as engineering and business, and women tend to chose low pay fields such as early childhood education and social work. (Surveys and other evidence suggest women chose based on working with people, making social impact, and flexibility to build a good work-life balance with family, friends, and enjoyment of life. Men tend to chose based on working with "things", higher income opportunity, and advancement opportunity.)
Men tend to work more hours (at job, not at home). Women tend to be more part-time or reduced hours (see above about work-life balance) and men tend to maximize overtime to earn more hours.
Time off for children. Women actually tend to make slightly more than men for the same job up to age 35, then fall behind when they have children, losing about 2 years experience on average for a given age after that compared to men. They take time off to have the baby, and that costs career advancement as men tend to stay on the job, so pass their female counterparts.

There are other reasons, like working more dangerous jobs, working more outside in harsh conditions, work more physically demanding jobs, and so forth, which pay more because of the lower supply of people willing to do that kind of work.

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Your statement seems no-nonsense and difficult to dismiss.

I, however, see two flaws.

Wages and salaries are a price, that is the result of a negotiation and the equilibrium point where the buyer (the employer) is ready to part with her money and where the seller (the employee) is ready and willing to part with his time, his energy, his pride and dignity, his dreams of becoming an artist, his sanity and whatnot. There is no universal low of nature that fixes what that price should be.

Now, it is also true that negociating employement is rarely a bargain between equals. First of course, it is abhorent to reduce a human being to the rank of a mere merchandise. That is why, over the course of the centuries and specially the last one, employement has become also something of a collective bargain, the collective part being expressed by such thing as public opinions, laws, trade unions and other social agents.

Employers of course tend to dislike the collective part of the deal, as it dilutes their overbearing bargaining power when it comes to negotiating salaries and general work conditions, and strive to undermine whatever workers' organization effort to open collective bargaining. That is in that context that what workers should be paid makes some sense, but it is not some imanent given, it is the result of long drawn social eddies, it takes some organization and, yes, some hard work, not only from dedicated activists but first and foremost by all and any of us who have their salary as sole income.

That is why words like believe and should are not intrinsecally wrong. They are even cute. Now, those words mean nothing until you are ready to put some muscle behind them. Are you ready to pass a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity because the company is not paying others well enough ? Are you ready not to buy a consumer's product because the maker does not pay its employees in a manner that seems fair to you ? To what lengths are you ready to go to determine what could be considered fair ?

Favoritism should not exist, period. It is not only the sexes, it is every social markers big and small.

Now one of the most basic human right is the freedom to chose who you associate with. Running a business is hard, why shouldn't you allowed to choose the persons you are going to share this burden with ? Why would outsiders have any say in who you choose ?

Turns out that no business is an island either. A commercial enterprise owes its success of course to the hard work and good thinking of those in charge, it owes it too to society, which, having painstakingly evolved over forty centuries has reached a temporary equilibrium enabling the swift movement of goods and money. The name of the processus that continuously adjusts this equilibrium has a name that may sound scarry : politics.

Politics too is hard work, also one hard work with no guaranteed return. Some people go into politics as just another way of doing bussiness (a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, there was an orange buffoon that lived in a strange white castle ...). Some people do it to elevate their soul, or just because they feel it's the right thing to do. It may work, most often it won't. How willing are you to take that chance ?

Favoritism is going to exist no matter where, what or when, and it is not always a bad thing. Now if you let it rule everything everywhere you'll end up with a clanic society unable to achieve anything grander than the village scale. A realm whose king is the sheriff of Bumfuckton, AZ, a nation that is really not more than an endless collection of surburbs.

The trick is to find the right balance, to slightly tweak the various controls until you find that sweet spot where everything hums together.

Now, boys will be boys, girls will be girls, just make sure the kids play nice together and no ! Kevin ! You can't have your little sister's cake, you had yours, now go slain some imaginary monster in the garden.

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It's time to move on and live in this year and not the past. Wage gap is now a myth just used to win elections and voters. There are many countries where paying a woman less is illegal. You can find many info on internet about it. Wow, even a woman says this one. She must be misogynyst and hate woman, thus herself, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=114&v=QcDrE5YvqTs

I will quickly explain it to you and then you can go on the internet and check it by yourselves if you want, otherwise you can live a lie.

These "wage gap" didn't take in account different choices women made. If a woman decides to work 5 hours and a man 10, they will compare this and they don't give a fuck about total hours.

If a woman has a baby and decides to stop working some months and live on his husband earnings, she will take this woman "no work" or "less hour works" and compare them to a man.

Let's say they earn 50x a hour. A woman decides to work less so she can attend her baby. His husband decides to work 8. 5x50= 250. 8x50= 400. She decided to do this, so where is the gap? What if it's the man who decides to work less? Is the wage gap in favour of women now? What if nobody decides to work less and they hire some caretaker? They both are now going to have less money overall as if one of them decided to work less hours.

You have to think about money per hour and not total money.

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This.

Not to be stereotypical but many jobs I've had there were women with their phones out, purses near and many times "I can't because...". I never would do any of these things and if I couldn't lift as much as the guys I would say "Give me a week" and eventually be able to lift.

I know a woman that does Laboratory tops for schools and other places. She handles the slates (with machines of course) but has to use a router etc. Many women on her floor take their time, texting, or being dainty. Her pay isn't even as much as theirs.

If a woman is willing to do the job, as expected, she should get the full amount. Unlike OP's picture where "More workplace injuries" "less days off" really apply to the women that don't do as much. You don't hurt yourself being dainty and slow. It's when you're getting the job done. I've never heard of less days off though. I worked every holiday, so I have no idea.

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The wage gap in the way people with that specific agenda try to spin it does not exist. The "earnings" gap exists. This is not because of discrimination; it is because, on average, women are more likely to take days off, work part-time jobs, et cetera. As a woman, myself, I can vouch for this being true. I'm the first to admit that, when our child has an event at her school, I tend to always be the person who wants to take time off to attend it over my husband. It doesn't make me angry that my husband does this and I have no problem admitting that this is what many women do, me often being one of them. It doesn't mean women are shitty workers, nor does it mean it's necessarily a negative thing. But, if you're taking unpaid days off, working part-time jobs, and taking maternity leave, yes, you will bring less home in earnings, not wages. And, quite frankly, a man who is so dedicated to his work that he will never take any leave whatsoever and puts in a ton of effort deserves higher earnings, anyway.

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female counter parts and at least some physical part to it, the women didn't do close to the same amount or same job that I did.

I can clearly see this just by looking at the people employed by the postal service where I live, when they come around in the afternoon to deliver packages. Every time it's a woman, they are consistently late by 1-2 hours. They always need help carrying the heavier packages (in the past, my husband has had to go carry stuff all the way from the delivery van); whatever smaller (but still heavy) packages they can carry, they drop with an audible thunk on my doorstep because they can't carry it any longer, and expect me to take the package from the floor (a man would hand it over, because he'd still be carrying it when I opened the door).

It annoys me to no end. I've discussed this with my husband, told him that it isn't very fair that they get the same wage as the men do but they can't fulfill their responsibilities and/or need constant help.

[–]TGiFallen1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]alchemist5 points 9 years ago [recovered] (62 children) | Copy Link

If true, your workplace was unique

Umm, not at all? I unloaded trucks for 10 years and the women there could absolutely not keep up. They had the same position, so got the same pay, but I had to jump over to their stations to help constantly.

It probably isn't a gender thing, it's a 'people who move stuff is teh dumb and get the absolute minimum' thing, really.

They don't get paid a different amount because of their gender, they get paid the same amount because nobody gives a shit.

[–]Tovora 160 points161 points162 points 9 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

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I'd be fine with it if they're putting in the same effort and helping where they can.

This part only bothers me because the people at the top are getting so much more. if the person at the top of the pyramid were getting reasonable pay, huge companies could 'afford' to pay people based on their contributions. I replaced 2 people when I started, and nearly a decade later, 4 people replaced me when I left. I got paid 1 person's wage.

When you get down to it, it isn't about gender (or, it shouldn't be) as much as it's about getting paid proportionately to the work you do. The real wage gap is between the CEO and the person running the register, not men and women.

Ideally, we all get paid by the number of boxes we sling from point a to point b, gender be damned. But as long as the folks at the top are taking 90% of the profits, that's never going to be possible.

I'm pretty drunk by now, so sorry if I went off into something unrelated. Probably time for some sleep.

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My groceries are ~$60 a week just for myself and I live pretty frugally.

You're retarded if you live in the USA and think $60 a week on one person is "pretty frugally".

I eat $30 a week right now, and I'm not even on a ramen diet, so I could be frugal-er if need be.

Are you morbidly obese or something?

EDIT: Fella edited this into his following comment:

In all seriousness though, according to the USDA's ballpark guidelines, $30 for a single person is about right for a thrifty food budget. I eat out sometimes and live in an expensive area, so $60 would qualify as low-cost.

So I'm not sure how you plan on feeding even a family of 2, on anything resembling a reasonable diet, for $40 a week lol. That's $2.85 per person per day. That's pretty much a ramen diet.

Assuming 2 salaries, each getting that $40 a week, that's a pretty good amount of food for a family who needs it. not to mention the condiments, etc, that last quite a while... Not that /u/tempinator is going to understand the math...

[–]tempinator2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]alchemist51 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tempinator0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's a good thing nobody lives outside of San Fransisco

Where did I imply otherwise? I specifically acknowledged that the cost of living in San Francisco is higher than elsewhere. That's why I'm spending $60 a week on groceries instead of ~$40 (more similar to you).

That doesn't change the fact that you can't feed a family on $40 a week unless you're eating ramen.

and there isn't a whole host corporate jackasses who also earn obscene salaries. Otherwise you'd sure look stupid. LOL

You honestly just sound bitter as fuck lol. Relax.

I'm right there with you as far as CEOs go, I think most are overpaid by a fair margin, but come on, don't act like only those hard workin' blue-collar workers are good people, and all corporate employees are evil money-grubbers.

Most corporate employees are paid appropriately, outside of the top 4-5 in the corporate ladder who make (I think) somewhat inflated salaries. Especially executives whose earnings aren't primarily incentives driven.

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It works like this:

Pretty Girl: "Oh I'm so tired, Hey [Guy that likes her here] (flirting) can you put this on the shelf for me?" Guy That likes her: "OH Yes, np, glad to help"

And before you know it, all the guys in the plant are doing her job for her.

New guy comes in: "This woman doesn't do anything, what's up with that?"

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Also, if it was a 'idiot of a guy' who you had to constantly help, you wouldn't hold his sex against him, he would not be that 'dumb guy', he would just be an idiot.

I mean, this was literally, "I take box 3, 4, and 5, and put them on pallet 3, 4, and 5" the term idiot never comes into play. It's just, can you physically keep up, or not?

The issue is when management sees it as "dum-dum move box, get paid rocks" instead of "John moves 16 tons, gets paid X, Bob moves 14 tons, gets paid Y, and Sarah moves 10 tons, gets paid Z." It's management looking at everyone on the bottom rung as neanderthals playing with stones, instead of people who should get paid in return for their time and effort.

I really, really wish the general focus was more of "white collar v blue collar" than "man v woman", because, while there are still gender issues to be fixed, the vast majority of gender-based oppression is from rich fucks trying to control everyone else so they can keep power. I'm drunk and can't extrapolate properly, but yeah. Stuff and stuff, y'know?

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those jobs just shit on you because there's 20 people waiting to take your place.

This is my main issue. These jobs are looked down upon because there's a supposed 10 people in line to replace you. A) this is not always the case, and B) the company might have to go through 9 of them before they get to #10 who is actually willing to stay and work. They've now wasted 10 weeks training a new person, who still isn't going to know the details and shortcuts and intricacies of the job, and will have to relearn them. Also, they might still leave after a few months.

Could've spent that 3 months of pay as a bonus for a person who knew what they were doing, had reliability, and accuracy, knew the ins-and-outs, etc. But, hey, just replace them with a potential dipshit. Works just as well. Kinda, not really, sort of.

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I worked in retail and while I would never specifically call for a male to help me, it makes more sense for one man to carry something that would take 2 women to get since that leaves one more person open to help customers. I've worked in retail environments with almost no men before (fabric store, dudes just don't want to work there) and have b spent a decade of my life doing technical theater. I'm all for carrying my own weight and have been in settings where I'm picking up the slack from guys, but I'm more than willing to admit when I physically can't do something and need help.

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Urinary tract infections are more common in women which can cause frequent urges to urinate. Also, women have smaller bladders than men do.

If going to the bathroom too often is a reason to reduce wages, then everyone should be paid based on output rather than time.

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[–]jessha points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, no. It's not a gender-gap based issue. Men are being paid five cents per piece completed. Women are being paid five cents per piece completed.

The issue would be people intentionally ignoring the context and claiming that the evidence of a gender gap is in how much they're paid by the hour. Either you pay someone based on their time present at the location or you pay someone based on the amount of work they complete. You'll have people complaining about getting screwed because they're doing more work, or you'll have people complaining that they're getting screwed because they're there just as long as everyone else. It's not even a gender issue, there is no 100% equal and fair way to pay people.

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That's probably because you can really only implement it on the levels where it benefits one sex (like labour jobs). Most other jobs are more ambiguous, where things like having a specialized skill set means that you're more valuable than someone else who technically has the same position as you but is used for menial tasks. They'd be outputting more, but you'd be more vital.

The entire job/education system would have to be overhauled to place men and women equally in all positions to give women a chance to compete based on output alone (which wouldn't work because people would be in jobs they don't want). Or to balance out the pay discrepency between jobs that women tend to choose and jobs that men tend to choose (which wouldn't work because wages for professions are determined by supply and demand not by what sex chooses to do the job). You'd also have to change the mindset of everyone so that they just blindly trust that the person they're paying to do something is 100% capable of doing it without any sort of discussion because conversation would cut into output, or because a customer that is well-informed and knows exactly what needs to be done would help the employee be more efficient than the other employee who has to figure it out on their own. Or, those people with stereotypes that women can't do certain jobs as well as men, so they argue back and forth endlessly until the woman proves that she is capable, whereas with a man they'd just jump into it and get it done.

Basically, with the current state of the world, there would be no way to implement a pay-by-output system that doesn't just fuck over women for reasons that have nothing to do with their actual ability to create output.

And really, paying based on output would likely lead to people cutting corners, doing rush jobs, pushing themselves way past their limits, etc. for the extra cash and everything would fall apart. Plus, imagine how curt everyone would become.

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It's almost like every place is different or something.

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I worked for a while at a moving company when I was younger. We had a crew that would go out at night and do some heavy moving. There was a lady on the crew. She got paid the same as all the guys and hardly did shit "because she was a lady."

She would work for 10 minutes and take a break for 20 minutes while the guys never took a break. We wanted to get the shit done and go home.

One time we were in downtown and moving an entire company from floors 14 and 15 of one building, across town to a new building on floors 18 and 19. We had to have it all done in one night and it was a huge job.

The lady sat on the elevator all night in a chair and would just push the floor number once we loaded the elevator. That's all she did. Anybody could have done that. But she got paid the same as all of us.

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Isn't it just anti-feminist bullshit? I don't see how being a woman prevents you from agreeing with the comic OP posted.... man or woman we should be able to agree that the 77% statistic is completely misleading and leaves out a ton variable factors (the point the comic is trying to make).

I'm all for equality and admit that in many industries women dont have a fair playing field. The old boys club still exists and that needs to be destroyed. But c'mon, this isn't anti-women, its anti-bullshit.

side-rant but im shocked at how tribal and biased our society has become recently - its dems vs reps, man vs woman, black vs white. all of these issues have nuance and complexity and need to be discussed rationally but all anyone can seem to do is pick a team and close their eyes. Its craziness.

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You can't just say "women make less than men for the same job," because there are millions of employers and jobs all around the country for which you'd have to apply this on a case-by-case basis. Also, there is a federal law which classifies paying women less as discrimination...if there was conclusive proof that women get paid less for the same job, all of those employers would go to court and all of those women would be cut a fat check. Not to mention that if this was a legal and accepted practice, business would heavily bias women when hiring. Also, the longer working hours can again be used to explain that, just because a woman and a man hold the same position, does not mean they work the same hours. There are plenty of men who make more than other men in the same position, "doing the same job." It's not gender discrimination. The list goes on and on, I can't believe people like you still buy into that bullshit.

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Do you think the fact that women earn more college degrees than men matters?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Different degrees have different earning potentials, so we would have to look at it on a case-by-case basis. To simply answer your question, no, I don't think "total degrees earned" by gender has much predictive value.

Do you think it matters that men commit far more crimes than women?

Again, I'm not sure what you are implying, but this likely reduces male incomes overall because it means there are less men in workforce.

Same is true for the raw wage gap of 23%. What is it about women dominated careers that cause them to be lower compensated?

Economics. Supply and Demand. It's not a conspiracy.

Why is it that women don't get jobs in other fields.

Biological pre-dispositions towards certain career paths.

Why is it that women are punished for having kids but men aren't?

Because men aren't pregnant for 9 months or breastfeed for another year afterwards? The male role is undeniably less involved in having children. This is just a biological fact.

As a counterpoint, I think you need to open your mind as to why you place so value on income. Money is not the ultimate indicator of value. Having and raising children is the most important role in society, but you are not compensated for this. Does that make raising children worthless in your eyes? I ask this honestly because I work in the financial services industry in NYC, and every one of my female who has had children was back on the job 3 months later, working 50-60 hour weeks. Frankly, I think its disgusting that their career is worth more to them than their children. It might be that we have different value systems.

[–]m-flo1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Different degrees have different earning potentials, so we would have to look at it on a case-by-case basis. To simply answer your question, no, I don't think "total degrees earned" by gender has much predictive value.

I'm not asking about predictive value, you dolt.

I'm asking about whether you think the gap is a problem. Lots of dudes on reddit seem to think it is.

Again, I'm not sure what you are implying, but this likely reduces male incomes overall because it means there are less men in workforce.

Yeah wow, you're just an idiot aren't you. I'm not tying male criminality to incomes. I'm asking whether you think the enormous gap between the sexes in terms of crimes committed gives you pause and makes you think about whether there's a reason for it.

Economics. Supply and Demand. It's not a conspiracy.

Sexism doesn't have to be a conspiracy. There was no conspiracy to hate black people. It just happened.

Biological pre-dispositions towards certain career paths.

Prove it.

Because men aren't pregnant for 9 months or breastfeed for another year afterwards? The male role is undeniably less involved in having children. This is just a biological fact.

It's unfair to punish women for having kids when it is a vital part of a functioning society. All efforts should be made to even out the effects.

As a counterpoint, I think you need to open your mind as to why you place so value on income

If you think that's a counterpoint you're a bigger idiot than previously thought. It's no counterpoint. It shows only how shallow you think.

It has nothing to do with the value of money. It has everything to do with equal treatment. Women are not treated equally to men. That is the issue.

[–]captaindorf2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And if the majority of people recognized this as true we'd actually be able to work towards changes.

We looked at a shitload of factors and after taking them into account have lowered the perceived gap from 23% to 4-7% (per 2009 U.S labor study). We should be pushing to understand what other shitload of factors might be causing this and how we can improve on it. One example is how women are behaviorally more passive than men and may not negotiate raises as effectively. Poor negotiation skills is still a personal trait/skill. But we can implement methods to help women overall to be more aggressive in negotiations. After that, it's on the individual to negotiate well.

Instead people just circlejerk trying to prove/disprove discrimination and the 23 cents myth. I swear you'd think feminists would be overjoyed to know the 23 cents gap is a myth so they could start working towards effective changes, but the narrative just keeps on spreading...

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Wow, this past year people just keep doubling down on stupid. I'll post this again in case you missed it

side-rant but im shocked at how tribal and biased our society has become recently - its dems vs reps, man vs woman, black vs white. all of these issues have nuance and complexity and need to be discussed rationally but all anyone can seem to do is pick a team and close their eyes. Its craziness.

You really can't step outside of your bubble and look st things objectively can you?

The satchels the horse is wearing are facts. Men do have more workplace injuries, do take less time off, and do work in better paying industries. I never made the inference that this makes men harder workers. Just that in our current society these are the contributing variables that cause the 77% gap. When you adjust for these variables the gap is somewhere between 5-3%. That 5% is what we need to be focusing on fixing.

I honestly can't believe you are of working age and have zero critical thinking skills and instead rely on emotional response and the blind defense of your in-group

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No, he is getting downvoted because this sub used to be about videos or texts etc where women claimed that because they're a woman they should be getting this and that, and then they would be denied.

You know, they'd try to get a Pussypass, but someone denies them it. It's all in the subreddits name you know.

And then we have these random posts that isn't really the content that made this sub what it used to be.

OP seems to have the right mindset, but he missed the memo about what content should be posted in this sub in my opinion.

From this subreddit I want those videos that we have had, about women slapping some guy and then they go full victim when gasp the guy actually defends himself because being a woman doesn't give you a Pussypass to slap others, in particular men. Not these kind of pointless posts that just feels like circlejerking.

Just my cents.

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[–]crybannanna 682 points683 points684 points 9 years ago (172 children) | Copy Link

If women truly got paid 77% of men, for the same work, then all companies would hire women only and save a shit ton of money.

Why don't any of them do this? Because either the disparity is not that great, or there is a financial upside to hiring men for that extra amount. Companies do not become global powerhouses by intentionally wasting 23% of their payroll budget without getting something in return for that investment.

It's so obviously untrue, that I can't believe it's so universally accepted as truth.

The data isn't false, women do make less than men, but that's due to the industries women work in being lower paying. This is a problem of women having barriers to entry in certain levels (glass ceiling) or even some entire industries... not less pay for the same job. It's that they aren't doing the same jobs either by choice or by barriers outside their control.

For instance, the finance industry isn't particularly welcoming to women. It's a "boys club" and harder for women to break into and rise up in this industry. It also happens to be a high paying industry, which itself could account for the entire income gap. I say this as someone with female relatives who have chosen to work in finance and have risen quite high.... but not as high as their male counterparts who started at the same time and have largely identical career paths (to a point). Not that they complain, because they make a ton... but they aren't blind.

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I'm not saying that it's gone, but that the decision to go into lower paying jobs partly based on stereotypes/glass ceiling is proportionally a much bigger issue than institutional sexism.

That statement was more to highlight that the comparison between the prison situation and wage gap is heavily different. Of course, black decisions play a factor in the prison overflow too, but the majority of the overflow is due to institutional laws that indirectly target poor and black/Hispanic neighborhoods.

Meanwhile, to my knowledge, many programs encourage women over men to join STEM. As a man in STEM, I sometimes feel upset over that inequality, but I see the necessity. The problem isn't as institutional as social, as many women either don't like STEM/think it's too hard OR they feel it's a male-dominated industry and see discouraged.

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Actually in my field, which is well-paying and extremely broad, (STEM) women actually have a 2:1 advantage when they apply to any given job. So while they only make up 10% of the applicants (optimistically), the other 90% applying have half the chance of getting hired as the tiny percentage of women applying. So your theory not only has been proven to be wrong, but is actually opposite to what studies have shown.

STEM wants to hire women, women don't seem to be interested in the jobs.

Further reading -

CNN - The Myth About Women in Science

We ran five national experiments with these otherwise-identical female and male candidates, systematically varying their personal attributes and lifestyles in a counterbalanced design. Every time we sent a given slate of candidates to a male faculty member, we sent the same slate with sexes reversed to another male faculty member, as well as sending both slates to two female faculty members. Then we compared the faculty members' rankings to see how hirable each candidate was, overall.
What we found shocked us. Women had an overall 2-to-1 advantage in being ranked first for the job in all fields studied. This preference for women was expressed equally by male and female faculty members, with the single exception of male economists, who were gender neutral in their preferences.

NPR - Could It Be? Researchers Find A Hiring Bias That Favors Women

Overall, the well-qualified woman ranked first 67 percent of the time. She was preferred over the similarly qualified male candidate in every field except economics, where the preference was evenly split.
"To say that these findings were unexpected ... is an understatement," says Wendy Williams of Cornell University and one of the researchers behind the study.
Here's why they were unexpected. In previous research, Williams had already found that women who apply for STEM faculty positions are more likely to be hired than male candidates. But she thought this was because the women who make it through STEM graduate programs have an edge somehow — more motivated, better pedigree, higher aptitude, etc.
But Williams' new research suggests this hiring bias isn't just a preference for the stronger candidate.
She found that, when a man and a woman had exactly the same credentials, universities still showed a 2:1 preference for hiring the woman.

Forbes - STEM Fields And The Gender Gap: Where Are The Women?

No matter where you turn, the stats are grim. Today, women hold only 27 percent of all computer science jobs, and that number isn’t growing. This is unsurprising when we take into account how many women are actually studying computer science in college; less than 20 percent of bachelor’s degrees in computer science go to women, even though female graduates hold 60 percent of all bachelor’s degrees.

It's very easy to find more sources, so I won't be further redundant. Happy reading. Women are already graduating ahead of men in universities. Boys are under-performing compared to girls and still dropping off as college graduates. Women are graduating with 60% of college degrees and in high-paying fields being hired at a 2:1 rate, and still we say, "Think about the girls!" Well, apparently we are. And have been for quite a while. I do wonder when we will think about the boys who are now falling behind. Men lead in workplace deaths, depression, suicide, and (obviously) military deaths, but to bring up any of these issues in today's society.. you would quickly find yourself in a social quarantine.

TLDR - Boys don't have problems. Think of the girls.

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Are you really saying that even though 74% of women work, the reason the other 26% don't is because of cultural pressures? I would say it is pretty evident that a high majority of society thinks it is ok for women to work. Do you know any studies that show what percent of those 26% would rather be working? Not to mention, you didn't even answer my question regarding men hirjng men.

I feel like you are one of those people that originally jjst heard this story and ran with it. Understandable considering our president was still misleading the public with it in 2016. Now you are taking examples that probably account for a very small percent of the gap and blowing it up to puah a narrative. Maybe women will start migrating toward STEM fields. Maybe they won't. Maybe women will start migrating towards labor intensive jobs and maybe they won't. Either way it's ok because they are individuals and can choose their own path. They aren't victima.

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[–]crybannanna 36 points37 points38 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

That isn't entirely true, but accounts for a large portion of the disparity.

As I said, the finance industry does tend to favor men. They don't pay men more for the same work, but they are more open to hiring men and promoting them to higher levels. This dynamic is changing, but it isn't an entirely fair playing field.

And I would add that this isn't through some malicious intent on the part of the companies at play. It's merely that the higher ups are men, and when they hire people they tend to favor men. It's like minded individuals doing this in unison, unintentionally. It has the effect of making the industry more hostile to women, in some respects. I know a pervasive fear regarding hiring women is that they might become pregnant and it will effect their future performance. Really it's just that a lot of the higher ups are old dudes, who haven't changed with the times. As the old guard changes hands, this will by and large fix itself.

[–]Jumaai4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As I said, the finance industry does tend to favor men. They don't pay men more for the same work, but they are more open to hiring men and promoting them to higher levels. This dynamic is changing, but it isn't an entirely fair playing field.

Thing with this is pretty simple. While this might or might not be interpreted as sexism women like to take time off to have children. There is close to no point of promoting 25-35 year old woman to high managment, because no company is willing to risk lets say CFO for South America randomly, with not much notice dropping out of work for 6 or 12 months. At that level it's not viable due to risk to the company. If that situation occurs, then there will be a hard to fill spot, with no people on this level willing to jump in. It creates a tremendous clusterfuck. If you look at big corporations you will find that the top brass women are all post menopause. You wrote pretty much what I did, but you have some hope of this changing - and I don't.

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IQ? How does IQ have any bearing on moving up the corporate ladder. I'm sorry, but I do not agree that intellect is directly correlated. Seem far too many morons in positions of power.

Neverthless, the days of moving up directly are long gone. People leave every few years so that they can move up more rapidly. You go from company A to company B at a higher position for more money, then in a few years go to company C to repeat. Many high level positions aren't internal promotions, but external hires. Executive head hunters exist for a reason.

I can't think of a single industry that promotes its leadership from within. That's almost unheard of in the current age. I don't know that the longevity increases as you look higher on the corporate ladder... it might actually decrease. Not sure what the turnover rate is in leadership positions, but i would doubt it is much higher than the average of the industry.

[–]Jumaai3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

IQ? How does IQ have any bearing on moving up the corporate ladder. I'm sorry, but I do not agree that intellect is directly correlated. Seem far too many morons in positions of power.

IQ is correlated with achievement in life. I'm pretty sure at some point it stops to matter, but untill that point it gives significant advantages, be it in school, career planning, on the job performance or interview skills.

Neverthless, the days of moving up directly are long gone. People leave every few years so that they can move up more rapidly. You go from company A to company B at a higher position for more money, then in a few years go to company C to repeat. Many high level positions aren't internal promotions, but external hires. Executive head hunters exist for a reason. I can't think of a single industry that promotes its leadership from within. That's almost unheard of in the current age. I don't know that the longevity increases as you look higher on the corporate ladder... it might actually decrease. Not sure what the turnover rate is in leadership positions, but i would doubt it is much higher than the average of the industry.

While changing workplaces is very important for career development - at some point it might be considered a negative. I'd say, and this is complete speculation, that past regional managment companies probably favor promoting from within. I would.

[–]crybannanna1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]travman064 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I mean, aren't we all products of our environment?

If you believe that women are making decisions to embark upon different careers purely because of differences in biology, then that would be true equality.

But, do you really think that? Isn't it perhaps something we should perceive as an issue of our society that women are 'choosing' to enter the different lower paying fields?

I mean, I truly believe that someone would make the exact same statement you just made in every single decade in the last 60 years.

But if you looked at numbers of women in all of these high-paying fields, they've by and large been getting bigger and bigger every single year.

Surely biology hasn't changed that much in 60 years, right?

So of course it's society that has changed, and women's roles in the workplace has changed, and the wage gap is shrinking as time goes by.

What do you believe has changed since 1980 that so many more women are finding themselves in medicine?

There weren't any laws prohibiting or curtailing women from studying a degree in the latter half of the 20th century afaik.

Yet today, female doctors are at an all-time high.

So what is different now than, say 30 years ago, that women are 'deciding' to be more successful?

Also, when you do control for things like career choice, personal drive, family responsibilities and shit like that, the pay gap is still between 4.8% and 7.1%

Again, if you believe that the pay gap is due entirely to differences in biology, then there's no problems. I just think that if you look at a graph showing the gap get smaller and smaller every year, the idea that we are somehow in a perfectly equal society without discrimination is kind of laughable.

[–]k-otic141 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree that the gap we have is due to our culture and how it places women as the household figures and men as the bread winners. Yes, we see that culture changing slowly and like you point out it effects the wage gap as it changes and men and women share the care taking responsibilities. But even if the culture changed completely, men and women evenly split care taking time, took the same amount of time off and everything else, there would still be a wage gap somewhere, it just wouldn't pit sexes against each other like this one. The gap would be between parents and non, or single people against married couples. There will always be people doing the primary care taking and because of that not earning as much money. So I think it's dishonest to say there's a wage gap based on discrimination, or that this gap is due to oppression when it's really an earning gap based on decisions we all take part in.

[–]travman0640 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I linked to the pay gap, which attempts to account for all external factors.

I agree that the commonly cited wage gap doesn't account for all of the pushes and pulls of society.

But the pay gap quite literally shows that women don't get equal pay for equal work.

How is that not discrimination?

There already IS a gap between parents and non-parents and single people and married couples. But if a single person was doing the same job, working the same hours, and had the same experience as the parent and on average single people were earning 5% more, then I would absolutely acknowledge that parents were facing discrimination.

What you're saying is that because we can never stamp out discrimination entirely, we might as well pretend it doesn't exist? What's your end-game here?

The vast majority of the wage gap = culture. I absolutely agree. The United States and Canada are also depressingly behind in this regard.

The pay gap, which I linked, isn't culture. It's an attempt to gauge the differences in pay between men and women who've made the same career choice, same life decision, same working hours, etc. etc.

The pay gap (and part of the wage gap, by definition) are absolutely due to discrimination (whether it be intentional or not) and oppression.

I mean, like I said before, if you believe that the current gap has nothing to do with discrimination or oppression, what do you believe is different from 40 years ago? It's been illegal to discriminate or oppress women for a long time, right?

What changed from 1977 to 2017, and what makes you believe that we've hit peak equality with negligible amounts of discrimination or oppression?

[–]k-otic141 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The link you posted took me to the top of the wikipedia page for Gender Wage Gap so I didn't look further because I couldn't be sure exactly what on that page you were referring to.

But you're actually wrong, the pay gap that is commonly referred to is not about men and women in the same job working the same hours. The gap is the median income of all men and women. There is no evidence that men and women with the same experience doing the same work get paid differently, that's against the law.

So no, the gap doesn't show women make less for equal work.

I never said we can't stamp out discrimination and we might as well pretend it doesn't exist, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. I said the things people point to as discrimination, aren't actually discrimination. That's pretty different. You seem to think that any reference to a pay gap must mean discrimination, I'm saying that's going to happen anyway, not discrimination, but the pay gap. People earning less then others, isn't discrimination, that's a fact of life, it's going to happen no matter what.

What is different today then 40 years ago? Seriously? How about the entire decade of the 90's when feminist movements made strides in equality?

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said we've peaked. But I'll link you to an interview with somebody who also agrees that discrimination has significantly gone down as a factor in the pay gap. http://www.npr.org/2016/04/12/473992254/on-equal-pay-day-why-the-gender-gap-still-exists

[–]travman0641 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The link you posted took me to the top of the wikipedia page for Gender Wage Gap so I didn't look further because I couldn't be sure exactly what on that page you were referring to. But you're actually wrong, the pay gap that is commonly referred to is not about men and women in the same job working the same hours. The gap is the median income of all men and women. There is no evidence that men and women with the same experience doing the same work get paid differently, that's against the law.

Could you perhaps link me to where you got this information? It seems to be in direct contradiction to "adjusted pay gap which takes into account differences in hours worked, occupations chosen, education and job experience" which it cites as in fact existing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

For example, it is expected that someone who takes time off (e.g. maternity leave) will not make as much as someone who did not take time off from work. Factors like this contribute to lower yearly earnings for women, but when all external factors have been adjusted for, there still exists a gender pay gap in many situations (between 4.8% and 7.1% according to one study)

That doesn't sound like median incomes across all fields and all lifestyles.

So no, the gap doesn't show women make less for equal work.

I postulate that it does, at least in some regard.

I said the things people point to as discrimination, aren't actually discrimination. That's pretty different. People earning less then others, isn't discrimination, that's a fact of life, it's going to happen no matter what.

I think that if you concede that the pay gap exists, that shows that women earn less working the same jobs, same hours, same lifestyle choices etc. that discrimination is a reasonable conclusion.

Just because an employer doesn't actively think about discriminating against women doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist.

Maybe the fact that more employers are growing up in a more egalitarian society and therefore viewing women as more equal assets to men is helping to shrink the pay gap?

What is different today then 40 years ago? Seriously? How about the entire decade of the 90's when feminist movements made strides in equality?

So you're saying that people were sexist in the 80s and 90s and that was the explanation for the pay gap back then, but not now?

You cite the law. You say there is no evidence that men and women with the same experience doing the same work get paid differently, that's against the law.

But wasn't it against the law in 1977 as well?

Wouldn't someone have made the exact same argument in 1977 that you're currently making?

Wouldn't someone have made the exact same argument in 1967 that you're curently making?

Do you honestly not think that a prevailing opinion would be 'there are no laws holding women back, therefore there are no barriers to decisions people personally make and the pay gap is just a product of our culture?'

Don't you think that's a problem? That people could say the EXACT same thing you're saying right now, just 50 years ago and you'd think they were hilariously ignorant?

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said we've peaked.

I feel like that's a necessary logical step in your argument.

I feel like broken down, your argument is:

1) the wage gap exists

2) it used to be due to discrimination and culture

3) things changed, and now it's only due to culture

So wouldn't you need to assume that we've hit peak equality and there's no more discrimination or oppression today to make the jump from 2 to 3?

I agree that discrimination has gone down, for sure. The wage gap has shrank considerably in the last century. But to say that it currently isn't a factor in the pay gap don't you also need to assume that it is negligible or doesn't exist? How can you hold one view and not the other?

Edit: I can see where the confusion lies. I meant the Adjusted Pay Gap which is reported to still exist.

[–]k-otic141 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you cite to the adjusted pay gap your referring to? The wikipedia page you link to mentions it three times but doesn't actually cite any sources(That I saw)

"I think that if you concede that the pay gap exists, that shows that women earn less working the same jobs, same hours, same lifestyle choices etc. that discrimination is a reasonable conclusion."

I don't concede that.

"Just because an employer doesn't actively think about discriminating against women doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist."

I agree, and I will concede that discrimination is a factor, but it's not the smoking gun that it used to be, and it's not effecting women the way it used to.

"So you're saying that people were sexist in the 80s and 90s and that was the explanation for the pay gap back then, but not now?"

I'm saying our culture has evolved in the last 20-30 years.

"But wasn't it against the law in 1977 as well?"

There are many examples of laws not being followed strictly until a cultural change. This is one. Prohibition is another big one that comes to mind.

"Don't you think that's a problem? That people could say the EXACT same thing you're saying right now, just 50 years ago and you'd think they were hilariously ignorant?"

50 years changes a lot, so yes, that one statement can have a much different meaning 50 years apart.

"So wouldn't you need to assume that we've hit peak equality and there's no more discrimination or oppression today to make the jump from 2 to 3?"

I'm not saying only culture, I've conceded multiple times that discrimination is a factor, a small one today, but still a factor, not the cause.

[–]travman0641 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you cite to the adjusted pay gap your referring to? The wikipedia page you link to mentions it three times but doesn't actually cite any sources(That I saw)

I've found a ton of data.

Probably the simplest one would be

http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-pay-gap

But by far the most interesting which looked at many different EU countries was

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Gender_pay_gap_statistics#By_working_profile_.28part-time_versus_full-time.29

Where you can look at multiple different control groups, though they don't make any large leaps. Very interesting though, lots of data to process.

There's also

http://pay-equity.org/PDFs/PaycheckFairnessActApr06.pdf

which specifically cites a 2003 study by the US Government accountability office stating that even when controlling for a multitude of factors such as work patterns, children, marital status, race, etc. women still earned only 80% of that of men.

You can find more articles here though many are behind a paywall.

There's also a lot more on regular google, but they generally won't give you the hard data and the justification for conclusions.

I agree, and I will concede that discrimination is a factor, but it's not the smoking gun that it used to be, and it's not effecting women the way it used to.

See I think we're on a similar page.

I do agree that most of the gender gap is due to culture and not institutional oppression or discrimination. But I do think that discrimination plays a larger role than say, 1 or 2 percent. The few studies I read vary greatly by country, but as a general rule it's still pretty significant, while countries that have a wage gap around 5% appear to have almost completely stamped out the adjusted gap.

As a general rule, the more progressive the country, continent, town, or state, the smaller the wage gap will be.

I'm saying that discrimination is still a thing, and it's still a factor that shouldn't be dismissed.

I get that you agree with me on this, I guess I misinterpreted your saying

In reality it's a decision based earning gap, not a discrimination based wage gap. The numbers are real, the interpretation is wrong.

I just think that many people read that and they read 'discrimination isn't a thing anymore.'

I get that you didn't mean that now, but if you look at the replies you got and the threads that sparked from those replies, I think a lot of people got the wrong idea. I honestly believe that most of the people responding to you there honestly don't think that discrimination plays a role in the pay gap.

I do agree that technically you were correct though. It's not a discrimination-based wage gap unless you define cultural/societal pressures as discrimination.

Also, if you want to use quotes like

this

just put a > key in front of what you want to quote

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I can't be bothered to find the other thing you wrote.

I think it's a combination of decisions and discrimination & sexism in society contributes to decisions.

For me the stand out example of this is in the medical profession. The argument made for centuries is that Women are care givers and caring etc & therefore should move into caring roles. The medical profession is primarily care based. But men dominate the high paid high skilled role & women dominated the lower paid roles in Nurses HCA etc. AS time has gone in and here has been a conscious push we are not seeing more women train to be doctor's than men and there will soon be more women doctors than male doctors yet still really senior medical professionals are overwhelmingly male.

So why is it only pretty recently women are training as doctors and why is that only just starting to be not seen as a male profession? Why now more women are training is it still dominated by men.

Women don't innately lack ambition or skill, drive and determination & the things that make people chose high paid careers. It isn't just random that so many roles are male dominated. Society doesn't work like.

[–]Claytertot 20 points21 points22 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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It's sort of a cycle. Because few women choose these careers, those that do are at a disadvantage.

It's a known phenomenon where people select those who most resemble themselves when hiring and promoting. It is subconscious bias, but it is reasonable. When filling a position, who better than oneself. Failing that, you are drawn to the person who you most see yourself in. Considering people only have moments to make this determination, physical resemblance often plays a large, albeit subconscious, role. This same subconscious bias is a factor with racial issues as well.

Though I believe it is being chipped away at. The desire for corporate diversity, a relatively new trend, has undoubtedly had an effect. What is historically effected by subconscious bias is now balanced by a conscious effort to have a more balanced corporate workplace, representative of the customer and community. I tend to think this is a good trend, though I understand some people's resistance to it. Sometimes it can seem forced.

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The parent mentioned Glass Ceiling. Many people, including non-native speakers, may be unfamiliar with this word. Here is the definition:^(In ^beta, ^be ^kind)

A glass ceiling is a metaphor used to represent an invisible barrier that keeps a given demographic (typically applied to women) from rising beyond a certain level in a hierarchy. The metaphor was first coined by feminists in reference to barriers in the careers of high-achieving women. In the US, the concept is sometimes extended to refer to obstacles hindering the advancement of minority women, as well as minority men. Minority women often find the most difficulty in "breaking the glass ceiling" because they lie at the intersection of two ... [View More]

^{See also:} ^Barriers ^To ^Entry ^| ^Upside ^| ^Payroll ^| ^Extra ^| ^Identical ^| ^Glass ^| ^In ^Being ^| ^Metaphor ^| ^Barred

^{Note: The parent poster} ^(crybannanna ^or ^{somenamestaken)} ^can ^delete ^this ^post ^| ^FAQ

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Industries are not the same as companies. Some industries where women dominate the field include education, nursing, retail, fashion. Basically industries that fall into traditional gender norms of caregiver or design, you will find a glut of women at every level. Fields related to those are seeing growing numbers of women rising up through the ranks. Most notably in the medical industry, as more women are becoming doctors then ever before. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the med school graduates are now more female than male.

Keep in mind that any shift in the power structure is delayed by decades. First women need to go into the field in growing numbers. Then some of them will rise to positions of authority, over time. That is a natural process, and its effects can be seen in nearly every industry.

When you look at the top of any company you'll notice that they are white men, nearly all. But they are also old. You have to compare like with like, and when you consider that those in power were born in the 50's, 60's and 70's, you realize that they never competed with women, or with people of a diverse ethnic background. When they were coming up, it was an ocean of white men. It takes time to rise to the top, so it makes sense that the top now would reflect norms from 50 years ago. Just as the top of the food chain 50 years from now will reflect the changed demographic within the workforce today.

Another reason for the gender wage gap is that the highest earners are the oldest workers (you make more as you age in years and experience). The people with the most experience are all men, due to the fact that women weren't working in the same numbers as men a few decades ago. People take this snapshot view of the world without realizing that what happened in the past effects what the outcome of today is. History has an effect on today.

[–]quite_certain5 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sandy Lerner co-founded Cisco, the largest networking company in the world.
Caterina Fake founded Flickr.
Maxine Clark founded Build-A-Bear.
Ruth Fertel founded Chris Steak House.
VMWare was co-founded by Diane Greene.
Mary Barra is current CEO of GM.
Shira Goodman is current CEO of Staples.
Marissa Mayer is current CEO of Yahoo.
Geisha Williams is current CEO of PG&E.

No offense, but it completely shits on how hard these women have worked to advance their career to call it a "boys club". I would agree with you that women there are privileges that have made it historically more difficult for women to advance as far as men. But it is becoming increasingly common for women to have the same opportunities. I would like us to understand how.

We need to ask better questions. What is the difference between women who make less than men vs. women who make as much or more? What privileges do the latter group have? What can be done to expand these privileges to more women (or to all people in general)?

A gender wage gap exists, I definitely agree with that. That's absolutely true. I consider myself a feminist, and I promise you, I will absolutely support closing the gap. But I want to make sure we're tackling the actual problem.

We need to get on the same page about what facts exist. We need to be on the same page about what studies have been conducted and what legitimate inferences can be made from the stats that are presented. That can't happen if we don't use more precise language, such as calling the work world a "boys club".

[–]smoketillisleep4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]crybannanna2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But if that's the case, then it would hold true that those companies who hire women (and pay less) would do a lot better. They would see immediate savings and wouldn't be blind to the reason. They would be incentivized into hiring more women.

For a moment presume you are the CEO of a company. You've heard that women get paid 77% for the same job. You, as CEO, have a mandate to increase earnings, and are presented with a potential 23% savings. If you were to investigate, and find this is true, wouldn't you direct your leadership to start replacing your costly men and capitalize on this discount? Or at minimum, make sure that you hire women from this point in to save in the future? Of course you would... why would you leave a 23% payroll savings (the biggest expense of every company) on the table?

So, why don't they do this? Why don't we see a huge surge of women being hired at a discount over men at a premium? Why too, don't we see the basic rules of supply and demand decreasing men's wages to parity? Surely having a competitor in the field, demanding 23% less, and composing half of the supply, would drive down the cost of your male labor? But it doesn't seem to do so. Either this isn't true, or there is a direct financial benefit to hiring males that offsets this.

Some fairly fundamental rules of economics goes against this narrative of a gender gap. It just doesn't make sense given what we know about how capitalism works. I suppose it's possible that no company in the entire US has the common sense to take advantage of this imbalance, but I have yet to see a single human vice or oddity go unexploited by corporate America. How could they continue to let a 23% savings in payroll go unsnatched. It's right there... and not only could they save all that money, but they could market themselves as a female friendly company and reap rewards for it. It would be a no brainer... yet no one does it. My question is, why?

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[–]smoketillisleep2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are.

There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent.

The report then lists reasons for the difference between the 77 cent raw gender wage gap and the 7 percent adjusted wage gap, but even in a report about natural causes for the disparity, it concedes that their "detailed statistical analysis" is unable to account for the remaining 7 percentage points.

So even if there are observable differences that account for most of the wage gap at the hiring level, there is still a lot of difference that isn't due to parental leave, working hours, education, etc. These "observable reasons" for differences in the wage gap could also be due to sexism or the culture in the united states in other areas. For example, women might not want to study some subjects with massively disproportionate amounts of men in the first place if they feel like they're out of place or that they won't fit in. Women who don't get their jobs in the first place due to discrimination or bias on the part of the hiring managers/interviewers wouldn't be shown in this "adjusted" 93% number either.

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It's difficult to not do this, but often our personal experience isn't representative of the world at large. You may not have seen good female engineers, but you should realize that this isn't really meaningful to anyone but you. Not intending to be disrespectful of your experience, just anecdotal evidence isn't really a good source for knowledge.

I don't believe women are any less capable in these fields by dint of having ovaries. Other factors are at play, most likely. Either your personal experience is limited, you're suffering some confirmation bias, you're not great at recognizing ability in others, or you've had bad luck regarding women in this field. Though i admit it's entirely possible that women have less aptitude in this field, I just think it's too easy to fall into that trap.

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If the half you're removing is a half that gets paid 20% more, then it is precisely how you save money.

You know that's the entire reason behind outsourcing. To get a labor pool that costs less. Companies do this all the time. But it's being suggested that they could save 23% on all those jobs they can't outsource, and they don't care to? It doesn't make sense.

And all that would be required is that after interviews conclude, they would favor the women and offer them the job first. If none of the cheap ladies accept, they could always call the men on the list. In this case they would be taking the financial hit in order to fill the role in a timely manner. Still, favoring women would be occurring if they were so clearly cheaper. Do we see women being favored in hiring practices?

Ask yourself this. When deciding between two equal things, do you buy the more expensive thing or the cheaper one, if they are of equal quality? Do you think corporations are incapable of understanding value for money?

It just doesn't add up.

[–]m-flo2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

then all companies would hire women only and save a shit ton of money.

No...

That would only be the case in employers

Knew they were actually paying women less
Though women were doing the same job

Turns out a lot of this problem is that employers just don't value women the same as men. They don't think "I could hire a woman and pay her less for the same work!" They think "I could hire a woman and pay her the same rate as a man, but get less work out of her." Go to the wiki page on the gender pay gap and read some of the studies cited. When they have men and women use the same script, do the same actions, men are judged by employers and witnesses to be more competent. Perceived as more competent = perceived as more productive = deserving of more money.

Even when they do an orchestra audition and women and men are just playing instruments, for some reason women are judged better by the listeners when they can't see their gender. Gee, I wonder what might be going on? Maybe we just have a subconscious sexism that uses double standards to judge women and men? No. Couldn't possibly be it. Every form of discrimination is the cartoonishly naive kind with some Mad Men-esque 50's dude sneering at a woman while he grabs her butt and calls her sugar tits.

The same applies for the salary negotiations that men so often point to as a "legitimate" reason for the pay gap. It sure would be legit if studies didn't show that men and women aren't treated the same for negotiating their salary. Women are punished for being aggressive, "demanding," and not feminine. Negotiating a higher salary for yourself doesn't fit the female stereotype and we punish them for that. This effect disappears when women negotiate on behalf of others because that DOES fit the stereotype. Women are nurturers who look out for others. When negotiating for someone else, that's what you're doing, the stereotype is safe, proceed as normal.

The only way to fix this is for people to acknowledge the subconscious bias and come up with ways to eliminate it from the process. Maybe gender blind auditions and interviews. Luckily, we here on reddit are doing our best to deny the existence of these things. The only real discrimination that exists is that against the straight, young, white male.

[–]crybannanna1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think you're missing my point. I fully acknowledge that individual bias could be at play. What I'm saying is that the CEO of the company wouldn't necessarily have that bias, and could unilaterally mandate women be given preferred hiring to save that money. It doesn't require anything other than a mandate from a single individual.

In order for this wage gap to be real, at the level of a 23% disparity, it would require the malevolent mustache twirler you're talking about to enforce. Otherwise, surely someone... a single person... would have made this calculation and benefitted. That would be a story we hear about. And yet we never have. We never hear about a single company that has capitalized on this.

So in the history of capitalist free market corporations, there has never been a single corporate leader who capitalized on this easy money saving strategy. The reason is either because corporate leaders are malevolently keeping women down, they are all too stupid to see the cost saving benefit, or it simply isn't true. Is there a 4th option that could explain why no single corporate leader has ever decided to favor hiring women for the cost saving benefit?

[–]m-flo1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What I'm saying is that the CEO of the company wouldn't necessarily have that bias, and could unilaterally mandate women be given preferred hiring to save that money. It doesn't require anything other than a mandate from a single individual.

Except no, because again, managers and whatnot are still paying people what they think they deserve, they just think women aren't as competent or productive.

Is there a 4th option that could explain why no single corporate leader has ever decided to favor hiring women for the cost saving benefit?

It's illegal to do it? Especially knowingly? Especially if there's any kind of documentation that says "let's just hire women because we can get away with paying them less." The only reason anyone gets away with this is because they don't even realize they're doing it.

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I've been paid less than women (for the exact same job, that I often do better) in every job I've ever had (including currently). That doesn't mean anything, except my personal experience is an outlier.

Im sure I've also been paid more than other men, and women, doing the same job. That's sort of how it works... they pay as much as you're willing to accept. If those around you advocate better for themselves, they get paid more. In my current job, the woman who gets paid more actually helped me get more for myself.

Basically all this tells us is that we both suck at advocating for ourselves. It tells us nothing of how the larger dynamic works. Your situation might be indicative of the world, or mine might be, but they at in conflict... so maybe neither of our anecdotal situations are relevant at all.

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[–]Swissguru1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For instance, the finance industry isn't particularly welcoming to women. It's a "boys club" and harder for women to break into and rise up in this industry.

Pure conjecture, there is no evidence to this statement that doesn't go back to days before equality. Quite the opposite actually, with most of the companies in that sector using the sexist means of quotas to increase female participation in their higher echelons.

female relatives who have chosen to work in finance and have risen quite high.... but not as high as their male counterparts who started at the same time and have largely identical career paths (to a point).

So they didn't have identical career paths. Being a mother, not asking for raises and promotions, lack of overtime willingness and different prioritization of work-life balance are guaranteed to explain most of the differences your female relatives believe are based on discrimination.

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[–]realvmouse1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree that the wage gap is distorted to make a point, and isn't nearly what people say it is.

But your argument is so transparently stupid.

If women are paid 77% of what men are paid due to discrimination, the same discrimination would affect the way the employer values the work of the woman. If the employer were as sexist as the common version of the 77% argument implies, he would see her (in reality) equal work as being in some way inferior to the man's work. He might perceive her as lazy despite her not being so, or find ways to criticize her work that are mostly invented because he is biased against her.

The proponents of the 77% argument are arguing that there is a difference between the percepton of a woman's value by their employer compared to the actual value of the women-- not that the bosses value them equally to men but then pay them less becuase they can.

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You're saying that interest in law, or medicine, or computers is genetic? Honestly, I never imagined I needed a source to refute that.

I took it for granted that interest in computers, an invention that is less than 100 years old, couldn't possibly be coded into our genetics which have evolved for millions of years.

If you are saying that interest in hunting and fighting is genetic, then yeah... that makes sense. But modern employment interests? I honestly don't see how that's even possible given our genes haven't had a chance to catch up to our modern lifestyles.

If you do have sources for that, I'd be interested in checking it out. I just figured that was a given considering what we're talking about (which was specifically work related to finance, another thing which couldn't be a genetic based interest, unless you're just saying girls aren't genetically predisposed to being good at math... which I'm NOT presuming you're saying because then we're having a different conversation altogether).

[–]Nick-Cage1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]crybannanna1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I never said nurture only. In fact, I said sometimes nature does determine interests. I just don't honk that generally applies to modern jobs, where it often takes a combination of skills (both task oriented and people oriented) to be good.

Doctor, lawyer, police officer, even IT has both interpersonal and task oriented dimensions. Even if your hypothesis is correct, it doesn't negate what I'm saying.

Further, it is next to impossible to separate out nature vs nurture considering the nurture part can begin immediately after birth. Unless you can actually find the genome responsible for being interested in a given career. Barring scientific evidence for this, I have to go with basic common sense alone. But I admit, I could be wrong. Perhaps there is a gene related to interest in science... and perhaps that gene is more prevalent on the Y chromosome. But that seems unlikely to me. Especially given that many women are interested in science.

So given that we know that both men and women can be shown to be interested in nearly every modern career field, logically we could rule out that gender is the defining factor. We could say that more men appear to be interested in X, but why would that be? If it isn't a rule for all, then it mustn't he tied directly to gender and another cause must be found. The best bet seems to be on the nurture component. What are children directed toward. Surely that has some influence on behavior and interest.

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I don't know. Honestly, she doesn't dwell on it or blame her company.

I know as she was moving up in her career she mentioned some sexist practices, but she never really blames it for anything. (It was always directed at someone else). She does quite well, and has beaten out a good number of men for her current spot. Though she has mentioned she gets paid less than some of her male counterparts, at her rate she realizes she can't really complain.

She a bit conservative, so she looks at things objectively in a way most don't. She can recognize sexism is there, but isn't as big a concern as some make it out. Though she has expressed that she has always had to be better than her peers in order to be viewed as equal. That probably gets annoying, but she's competitive so I think part of her enjoyed the challenge. She's weird.

Overall, I get the impression that she no longer sees a path to move up. It just isn't going to happen at her level. She hit the glass ceiling, but the ceiling was pretty fucking high, so she's made peace with it knowing she earns more than most. It's hard to complain about the glass ceiling when it's so high that 99% of people can't even see it.

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[–]crybannanna1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People get hired at the rate required to get the people desired. That factors in years of experience, education, specific skills, competition, etc. each additional requirement usually requires more pay to attract qualified people.

If a company can attract and retain qualified people at minimum wage, then that is precisely what they pay. Believe it or not, companies want to maximize profit. If they can get what they need for less, then they will. That's why a minimum wage exists... because companies want to pay less than that for unskilled jobs.

You realize that companies don't pay more for some jobs because they are being nice. They pay the least they can to get what they need. Usually, that's above minimum wage, but if they could pay you minimum wage they would.

I'm not sure you understand how business works. Your comment is really... how do I put this nicely... not well thought out.

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Here's a comic. They use different terminology, but the left panel represents equality of opportunity and the right panel equality of outcome. Which do you think is better for all involved?

http://i.imgur.com/0yN8vQh.jpg

(Comic depicts 2 panels of three individuals, an adult, an older child, and a young child. They are standing behind a wall trying to watch a ball game. On the left panel, each stands on one crate. The adult is high above the wall, the older child's head is just above the wall, but the young child is below the top of the wall and unable to see anything. This panel is labeled "Equality". In the second panel, the adult is standing on the grown, the older child is standing on one box, and the young child is standing on two boxes. All three can now see over the top of the wall. This panel is labeled "Equity")

Also I think it's a bit tricky to say definitely what is and isn't equality of opportunity. For example if you set up a library to educate the community, but it's only open during business hours, or is far from public transport, or is upstairs, or doesn't have any materials in large print or audiotape, you're limiting the opportunity. You can make a lot of guesses as to whether or not people are offered an equality of opportunity but it's actually pretty easy to measure whether or not the equality of outcome is the same. If your population is 4% handicapped but only 0.5% of handicapped people make use of your resources, odds are good that you're not presenting the opportunities you think you are.

[–]elesdee1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]notafuckingcakewalk1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Exactly. Most people talking about this are concerned with structural rather than individual discrimination.

I, for example, would be interested in structural changes. For example, many people oppose women-only or girls-only technology programs because they are "sexist". I support them, because I see them as offsetting inherent structural inequalities that are currently present.

I'd be equally in programs to help men and boys learn to be better caregivers. There's a reason that there are a ton of articles directing at women on "balancing work and home" and not so many of them just for men. It's assumed that men won't have that conflict — because they'll just be working. If both men and women were challenged to balance life and work — if men had to take an equal proportion of the childcare when both parents were working — that would be a huge step towards income inequality. If it's expected that the woman will be the one to always take time off, then they will need to gravitate towards jobs that allow such flexibility, and naturally they will earn less than men.

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No it's the way our economy works. Create more value make more money

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[–]jmlinden72 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's an interesting concept, though I disagree with it. There's nothing inherently 'male' about a free market. It's not like all salary negotiations requiring a peeing standing up contest or anything. Although it was created largely by males, I view it as more gender-neutral. Or do you believe that males are not capable of creating gender-neutral constructs?

It's also not a completely free market in the first place since most teaching jobs are unionized (so schools are paying for an aggregate amount/quality of teaching rather than try to pay each individual teacher what they are worth based on the rareness and demand for their skills) and also highly regulated (making it more difficult for a talented but uncertified potential teacher to break into the field, as in a free market there would be no barriers to do so).

Supply and demand is simply a reality of economics whenever you are dealing with a finite, transferrable good or service. There's a finite amount of teaching and you can transfer the service by teaching people. How much people are willing to pay for it depends on the demand for that service and the supply of people willing and able to perform it. In this case, there just happens to be a huge amount of people willing and able to teach. I don't think that accepting the reality of the situation is really a patriarchal mindset.

[–]moonmixer3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

do you believe that males are not capable of creating gender-neutral constructs?

Actually, I don't believe that any people are capable of making entirely gender-neutral social constructs without painstaking effort and attention paid to doing so. Even then, I seriously doubt that anyone can ever be fully freed from bias in action and thought.

Supply and demand is simply a reality of economics whenever you are dealing with a finite, transferrable good or service.

...but supply and demand are also often altered by externalities. The point expressed in my previous post reflects the view that a negative externality of lowly-valued education is not only potentially an averaged gender wage gap when not controlling by career, but various other detrimental effects. This is, in fact, why public education exists at all.

[–]jmlinden71 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]moonmixer1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the invisible hand

Hmmm... and who, exactly, devised this concept?

ALSO, assuming anything created by a white man is inherently patriarchal and negative to women is a fucking joke

Can you not read?

Even if free markets are patriarchal in design (which, to be clear, I am not entirely sure of), this is not an outright/overall condemnation of them.

Try reading the posts you respond to before making wild assumptions and swearing at people... I certainly don't think that anything created by white men is inherently patriarchal, and even then, I'm not sure something being inherently patriarchal makes it inherently detrimental to women or negative. I stated as much explicitly, you just decided not to read it.

And why is it that you chose to ignore that? It's the hallmark of a closed mind to disregard an idea and label it negatively just because it is associated with other ideas you don't like or which are legitimately awful. You sound a lot like a reactionary radfem when you disregard the entire idea and jump to conclusions about the rest of my views, especially when I explicitly refute those conclusions before you even come to them. Try again.

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Both computer science and social work require about the same amount of schooling. They both have the potential to be extremely stressful. It's not even like there isn't a huge demand for social work — in fact, most social workers are overloaded and can't devote as much time as they really should to all of their cases.

The truth is, there is a huge societal demand for social work, but it isn't valued. That's exactly why social workers are overloaded — because they really should be hiring more social workers — and they should probably be paying them more as well.

But society doesn't value social work the same way it values computer programming. Even though when you look at the sort of societal costs that come from people not getting the help they need, most social workers are probably a far better return on the salary they are paid than programmers are.

And that's where the argument starts to hold water. Assuming you want some kind of growth in population (and, inevitably doom of our planet aside, you do if you care about the economy; a shrinking populace would be disastrous), then the "work" that women do making and raising children is important. And, again, society needs it but it doesn't value it economically.

Finally, it's definitely less common but you'll still see companies either running workplaces uninviting to women, or sometimes even discriminating them because of concerns that investing in a woman just isn't worth it if she could get pregnant.

One thing feminism is trying to do is to make it easier for men to take a larger role in caring for and raising children — for example, pushing for paid paternity leave as well as paid maternity leave, or fighting against old stereotypes that only women should be involved in early education (women make up a huge majority of elementary teachers; men make up 40% of high school teachers; guess which usually pays more?).

[–]dongtouch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is what I was about to post and I wish this was higher up.

People in this post keep talking about men being paid more for taking more "dangerous" or "physical" jobs. I'm sorry, how is investment banker more dangerous or physical than an ER nurse? Social worker? Daycare worker? Middle school teacher? Do you know how physical a job as a live-in caregiver is? Is construction somehow more vital than knowing how to care for children? These jobs take skills and stamina. Many require schooling and degrees. The difference in pay is how much we value these jobs as a society.

There's a correlation between the percentage of a field that is female (how stereotypically "feminine" a job is) and lower wages; similarly, the more men are in a field, the higher the wages and the more important to society it is deemed. You can see this in action when you look at fields that have changed gender balances. e.g. computer programming started out as a mostly-female field that was seen as barely above being a secretary; now look at the wages and prestige it commands because it's mostly men doing it. Veterinary medicine has taken a plunge in salary now that it's mostly female; so have biology-related careers despite biology technically being a STEM field.

The wage gap isn't just about how much the women in one field make vs their male counterparts. It's a larger picture about what work we see as valuable. Just look at all the comments trying to justify certain work as more dangerous/physical and therefore deserving more pay vs work employing soft skills or any skill, regardless of advanced degree, that has to do with child-rearing and caregiving. Which like, having to do with the survival of our species, I'd argue is actually more vital...

[–]tomprimozic1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]dongtouch2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you're comparing supermarket vs contruction/oil rig, that's a difference in skill and risk, so I would expect a difference in salary. Warehouse vs cashier I'm less clear on but these specific comparisons aren't really what I was talking about. There's a much broader discussion that's missing from this shitty comic.

When we have these conversations, we tend to set up criteria that obvious favor men as an excuse for why they get more benefit - eg men are stronger and can lift more, so that gets the paid more. We don't discuss skills women may have as a whole as also being valuable.

We also ignore a whooooole lotta other factors as if it comes down to women choosing certain jobs solely because we are lazy or weak. But we can't ignore women's historical lack of access to certain jobs, gender expectations, societal expectations, and social pressure. When's the last time your buddy Tom said, "I'm taking a part-time job close to home to care for the kids while Mary does her 7 months on the rig." Women and men do not start out on equal footing here which tilts the outcomes.

There are a whole bunch of criteria that can be used to determine fair salary, and what I'm saying is that people are focusing a LOT on the strength/risk ones and ignoring other things such as amount of schooling needed, amount of certification needed, hours worked, rarity of skill-set, and also a tendency to prioritize the skills themselves based on gender roles. Like lifting boxes in a warehouse vs people skills of being a cashier. These are both important, but you're arguing that the former is somehow more valuable. Why? How do we measure that and why does it tend to fall along gender lines so much of the time? And why is it that when we compare jobs with similar schooling/time/skill requirements, jobs that are generally "female" make less than jobs that are generally "male"? e.g. your example Is lifting a lot of weight the one thing that tips the scales here?

What about jobs that are mostly female and require a lot MORE schooling and certification but make the same or less as jobs that are mostly staffed by men? e.g. Trucker, electrician vs LVN, primary school teacher

There's a whole lot of other stuff to consider such as how we need to reproduce as a society but the US has little to no support for parents and families what with no parental leave and shitty healthcare, so if you can't afford daycare, guess which gender of parent/relative tends to care for the kids... Which skews things also and affects what kind of work women go after. But we can't act like this is all a decision women make flippantly in a vacuum and then whine about not getting paid the same.

[–]WaterTurnsFrogsGay1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]notafuckingcakewalk1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Did you even read my comment?

The workforce isn't oversaturated — it's just not valued economically. So it isn't oversaturated — it's just under-employing.

Teachers are overworked and classrooms are too large (my local elementary has something like 25+ kids per class — and that's one of the good local elementary schools). Social workers are assigned more case loads than they can handle.

A lot of female professions aren't valued and are first to be cut whenever the issue of budgets come up. Universities generally don't have hiring freezes or budget cuts for on campus security — or the sports department for that matter — but hiring freezes and budget cuts for libraries (another female dominated field) are routine. Almost all social security (and here I'm talking about the larger category of social security nets like food stamps, social work, special education, early childhood intervention, job placement, etc) — all of these sectors are filled with women and are very frequent targets of cuts even though they offer a great return on investment in these areas in terms of prevented poverty, health problems, societal problems, etc.

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It is not really that simple. These are complex issues. You can not simply put all the blame on women that they take 5 years off to pop out kids. It takes two to make one. Moreover, you argument would work if we weren't living in a world where women have been oppressed and confined. In many societies, women aren't allowed to work because they are conditioned from childhood that their place is in the kitchen.

You argument works, probably for a girl and boy when they are provided equal opportunities which isn't the case in the real world.

What you are trying to say is it is the women's fault that they have to bear a child and we as a society don't have to deal with this. This is like saying that it is the disabled person's fault that he is disabled and can't walk up the stairs.

To be frank, you are talking like trump here. The world is a complex place. The answers aren't as easy as you are typing them out to be.

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People are misunderstanding the stat. No one is saying that if you're working the same job as a man but you're a woman you're getting paid 77 cents on the dollar. That is illegal. They're saying that on average women, as a whole, earn 77% of what men on average, as a whole earn.

Right, but people... certain people... are PRESENTING it as it women are paid less for the same work. They're being disingenuous.

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Feminists who whine about their job mis-represent the 77 cent thing as "77 cents per dollar for the same job".

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She works for a conservative think tank bruh. She's not telling it like it is, she is literally getting paid to tell it like it isn't.

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People should be held responsible for their choices and thus make responsible choices. Think tanks can be bias just as news sources can be bias, this does not make all think tanks bad. If women want to make more they need to take higher paying jobs. They may not like it and that's fine then they can do something else and make less money. Nothing wrong with taking a lesser paying job if it is what you want to do, but that is the consequence of that action. One of my older sister's friends wanted to work with elderly people and she got a degree in that field and soon after graduating realized this field is not high paying and went into another field to make more money. She could have stayed in that field if she wanted but she would rather do something else and she will be rewarded for that choice. Not all jobs are equal and not all workers are equal and they should be paid according to what they contribute. Though I will say I do think that there are many high paying jobs that do not merit the amount they make and many low paying jobs that should be paid more, but that is up to the free market to decide on wages, not me. But you are correct that the wage gap does not narrow to exactly zero because there is clearly some discrimination against women, however, this does not imply causation of systematic discrimination. Sorry for rambling and using an anecdote.

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This is what I was saying earlier about the concept of conservative and liberal being misconstrued. Of course there are many liberal think tanks and many rich liberals. I don't think the findings of there being little to no wage gap, at least not as most people understand it, as taking away power from the people either.

Here is a list of liberal think tanks. http://think-tanks.insidegov.com/d/t/Liberal You can google it yourself if you find this an unreliable source.

I think you are correct in saying there are more conservative right wing talk radio stations, which is a dying industry, however you are isolating one part of the advertisement and media industry while not looking at newspapers and TV stations. Huffington Post, Washington Post, New Yorker, The Guardian, MSNBC, CNN, NBC News, all liberal media outlets and all large outlets with large audiences.

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think tanks like Prager U act as a PR lobbying tool for corporations, who wants to influence the government for its own gains over collective good.

For example, Koch funded "think tanks" conveniently deny climate change.

Similarly Prager U, tries to be credible by adding in the word "university" when they aren't.

Prager U is pro war, anti feminist, anti abortion, anti workers rights, pro christian, anti modern art-- in other words, it wants to promote conservative ideas. To do that, they create these videos to rope in unsuspecting people to support them who might otherwise disagree with them fundamentally on many things.

So unless you are someone who considers yourself to be a person of judeo christian values who have to live by regressive conservative ideas, then you shouldn't provide legitimacy to them.

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But men do work more laborious and dangerous jobs. And they do work more hours.

As for stress and burden, men also commit over 70% of suicides.

So when the bullshit wage gap myth gets brought up time and time again it weens on people.

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[–]xenemorph points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you express any idea without simplifying it? The cartoon is based on actual statistics/facts, unlike the "gender wage gap." Men do, on average, have more burdens and stresses. Maybe work on fixing that to have true equality.

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As someone who isn't into the red pill bs lemme give my two cents on this.

The cartoon is attacking the wage gap myth. That's the goal of this. The goal of this cartoon isn't to be as completely accurate as possible while covering the whole issue. It's just to point out some flaws in the argument itself. If it were to try and cover every single aspect of this issue, it would no longer be a one panel comic it would be an entire graphic novel. I think it handles its goal in a fairly alright fashion. However, I don't feel as if this is a completely effective cartoon since it raises even more suspicions about its validity due to the lack of representation of female issues in the work place. To be blunt, it's too biased for my liking.

As for this sub being a red pill echo chamber? What do you expect from just the name of it?

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We really do fundamentally disagree on this.

My sister lives in Europe and she got maternity leave and her husband paternity leave when she had her kids.

When I compare that to what my husband and I got here in the US, I feel that there are some things the US just doesn't get right.

The same people who complain about falling birth rates among certain demographics are exactly the people who don't want to put in place policies which facilitate parenting.

I thought I had lower taxes than my sister but when I looked at it, with all the 'hidden' taxes in my state and the lower wages I get here for a broadly similar job, I'm not any better off.

I want to say be grateful you live somewhere with a safety net, but what I'll actually say is, I hope you lead a life where you never need carer's allowance for caring for a sick spouse, you never feel that you can't afford to be sick and you never have to back to work while pumping breast milk. Be lucky and continue to not see the benefits of your system.

[–]boechtps43 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Holding_Cauliflora1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yet again, I did read your comment and I'm actually finding it kind of rude that you think I didn't. Maybe it's a language barrier thing, although your English top notch in every other respect? My examples of a safety net are over and above basic health care which is the only thing you said you liked.

Many in the US find it hard to even have one kid.

Health care will not give you carer's allowance when your spouse is sick.

Please correct I'm wrong, but it looks like you selectively support the parts of the system that you can see yourself benefiting from and resent the others as going too far.

Most countries cap benefits for children at 2 kids, or have a sliding scale for younger children to discourage bigger families. Belgium seems to be unusual in this respect - what was the reasoning behind this policy?

[–]boechtps41 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not trying to be rude, just practicing debate and learn from an opposite opinion. I do sometimes have problems with getting the message across.

which is the only thing I really liked was followed by the rest is just too much. This should have come across as: the medical system is good as it is, in some aspects it could be even more, the rest of the system is too much in its' current form. It's too facilitating for those who do not want to work (last year a man who never worked "retired" if that makes any sense), it's too generous in benefits for children. This policy is something from the sixties. Back then society was pushed to grow to be able to pay for pensions. And for a polulation to grow you have too have more then two kids a couple, I think it's even 3 a couple. This has not been revoked since.

Your not entirely wrong on the myself benefiting thing, I think everyone does in some respect. However I more see it, if it fits my world view I support it, if not I resent it. And of course this is influenced by the position in which I'm in right now, and it will change as my life continues, as it should.

[–]Holding_Cauliflora1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I get that you are in a system that is over-generous and we shouldn't be financially compensating ever bigger families, but some of those things you don't see a use for now you may need in the future. This is a revolutionary concept- you could try and imagine yourself in a situation you're not currently in and think to yourself - what would be the fairest way to treat that person in need?

Rather than to wait until you yourself are a lactating mother or a spouse who has to stay at work to retain the healthcare benefits for their husband who is going through chemo, leaving him effectively to deal with cancer alone or die - you could use empathy to imagine what that would be like, and act accordingly.

These are situations which happened in my state quite regularly.

Too generous welfare is a problem. People dying due to being unable to afford healthcare or being bankrupted by illness happened regularly in the US pre-ACA, that's a bigger problem.

[–]boechtps41 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What is this, empathy? Pieew. No I'm joking, I said if it fits my world view, which is influenced by my position, influenced, not dominated. A world view is composed of your own experiences, the experiences of those close to you and then the experiences of people you don't know, which you are confronted with, in that order. Are you entirely unbiased? Then you are a robot. If you look at what I've written (I know you read them, :)) you can find empathy, just not unrestricted.

I've clearly stated I'm not against help from the government for those who need it, in whatever capacity. This is a foreign concept for you as your government fails to do so. But if you can pay for whatever problem you have, pay for it yourself. We just come from two very different systems. There is almost no social safety net in USA, we have a ridiculous one. I prefer mine, but there is always room for improvement and it's overdue. We do have downsides, it's increasingly difficult to be able to buy a house for example (this might be the case in US, I don't know).

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[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The disadvantages women face are not financially compensated.

Not directly, but they are. Allow me to elaborate.

Take two individuals. Alice and Bob. Alice and Bob are single and live alone, which means they have to do their work, come home, and then maintain their home. That's just life.

A few years later they get together, and shortly move in together. It doesn't matter that Alice makes more than Bob, they just want to be together. They continue to split housework. It turns out that Alice needs to start working overtime, but Bob's job is a strict 9-to-5. So Alice starts to work extra hours, and because they work together, Bob picks up the slack and takes on more household roles.

Now in this example, Alice is doing more compensated work, and Bob is not. But is there anything wrong in this example? Bob, loving Alice, was happy to help with his chores so he could manage the overtime. What would be unfair (in my opinion) is for him to say no or do demand financial compensation for the housework he's doing.

And in a way he's already being compensated for it. First of all, he's doing it to let Alice achieve what she wants/has to do, which should be reward enough. Second, Bob benefits from Alice's increased salary. The larger home, the nicer cars, and the better food. He's allowing Alice to give him a better life, and that is a form of compensation.

Never mind that the fastest way to get wages in a field to go down is to have it switch to being woman-dominated.

Citation needed, but also, women are statistically less likely to negotiate higher salaries, and when they do, they don't ask for as much. That alone plays a decent part in all of this.

[–]Holding_Cauliflora1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is Bob just doing extra chores, or is he also doing most of the child-care and all of the elder care for Alice's Mom who has early on-set Alzheimer's?

Are Bob and Alice's working days the same length, or does Bob go from 9-5 straight to "Mom/Dad til midnight" (with a couple of extra hours put in for kids/confused parents waking in the small hours).

Are Bob and Alice's working days and relative salaries really different enough to justify Bob pulling all that extra slack at home? Is Bob doing two jobs for one salary, allowing Alice to have more time outside the home to earn more money? Is the fact that he gets to see Alice pull up in a slightly fancier car supposed to earn his undying gratitude that he can participate in a lifestyle he's working just as hard as Alice to facilitate?

Citation, one of many easily available on Google for jobs paying less as more.women join the field - I'm doing your secretarial work for you

Individually, within a company, your point about women not negotiating higher salaries may be valid (and the ensuing discussion about how that request is received from a woman as opposed to from a man is very interesting) but this phenomenon, when one gender becomes more prevalent in a sector than the other, and the fact that wages go down when a sector becomes female dominated (and vice versa) is at least worthy of consideration.

I can see what you are saying, but there is 10% of the pay gap that can not be explained away, no matter who does the research and how hard they want to tell us that the bonbon eating women of the world don't know jack.

[–]spaghetti3352 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is Bob just doing extra chores, or is he also doing most of the child-care and all of the elder care for Alice's Mom who has early on-set Alzheimer's?

For sake of argument, in this discussion "chores" refers to unpaid housework, so yes.

Are Bob and Alice's working days the same length, or does Bob go from 9-5 straight to "Mom/Dad til midnight" (with a couple of extra hours put in for kids/confused parents waking in the small hours).

They both work 9-5, but Alice has taken on overtime. They divide chores evenly given what remaining time they have leftover.

Are Bob and Alice's working days and relative salaries really different enough to justify Bob pulling all that extra slack at home?

I don't think it's relevant. It would be unreasonable for Alice to expect Bob of matching her earnings, either from his employer or via chores.

Is Bob doing two jobs for one salary, allowing Alice to have more time outside the home to earn more money?

No. He does a decent upper middle class job. It just doesn't pay as well as Alice's.

How would this allow Alice to "have more time outside the home to earn more money"? She is doing overtime of her own volition; she's already earning more money.

Is the fact that he gets to see Alice pull up in a slightly fancier car supposed to earn his undying gratitude that he can participate in a lifestyle he's working just as hard as Alice to facilitate?

He doesn't have to work just as hard to share in the lifestyle. That's not the point. You can date people outside of the economic class system, and it works fine.

Citation

First of all, that article compares similar but not identical jobs. For example, it supposes IT managers and HR managers are basically the same thing, so they should be paid the same. The same goes with janitors and housecleaners. Superficially similar, but they're sufficiently different.

Your article does (eventually) link to a study that's unfortunately behind a paywall, but does it factor in negotiations? I know that negotiation is seen as a negative trait with women, but nonetheless it's demonstrable that men do not negotiate as much as men do, and often they won't even suggest it.

I'm doing your secretarial work for you

No, you're engaging in a proper debate by presenting a citation. If citations aren't a requirement, what's stopping me from throwing false accusations at you?

I can see what you are saying, but there is 10% of the pay gap that can not be explained away

I've seen it as low as 2-5%, and that's before negotiations are considered. And as I cited above, the gap does reverse when you're talking about young, single, childless women.

[–]Holding_Cauliflora1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My husband said just now;

"Don't waste your breath, the good guys don't want it to be true because they have a decent sense of fairness and they would then have to do something about the unequal treatment of women in the workplace, and the bad guys just hate everyone and crap on everything".

I'm taking his advice. If you wish to research this on your own terms including why men and women doing the exact same jobs with the same entry qualifications and responsibilities are often given different titles with varying levels of prestige for the same job then be my guest, I have done my bit for now, over several days (how old is this thread?) unpaid, like every other bit of women's work.

Please look into this with open eyes, it's a fact, and sometimes it's no-one's fault, but women's work, no matter what that is, is valued less than men's. Just like racism didn't disappear overnight, our own ingrained evaluation of gender and value didn't disappear overnight.

Have a wonderful day.

[–]spaghetti3352 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Say hi to your husband for me! (or don't, that might be weird for you)

What's unfair is that it sounds like you've decided what's right. I'm just trying to figure it out, but it seems like you've given up and said "You either agree or you haven't learned enough."

To extend an olive branch: I know it can suck to be a woman. Your political representation is awful, just, like all of reproduction sucks, and society has yet to shake it's archaic views of what people ought to be, women in particular.

Despite what you may think, I do care the equality of all. It's been a personal battle actually. I just think that the wage gap is a poor argument. I've read many studies on it and they all make the same mistakes. At the very least, I hope you also look to the counterarguments with open eyes, just as you've advised me, and see why so many of us argue against it.

If you're tired of the fight, I get it. I've been there too. But discussion is how we move forwards, and I've been enjoying the exchange this far.

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No, but it does give lie to the whole 'pussy pass' idea when the majority of people wiping young and old butts are female. Let me give you a like-for-like example though.

Caring work (in elder-care homes for example) is underpaid, it has anti-social hours and is dirty.

It is not compensated for these 'disadvantages' to the same extent as men's dirty shift work is compensated.

Ditto nursing.

Biological sciences are female dominated and the status of that work is falling. As medicine becomes ever-more female-dominated, watch doctors' salary and status fall.

Women's work isn't less valuable in any logical terms.

The minute any field becomes women's work, that work magically becomes less valuable. Look at the relative salary and status of teaching.

Women are supposed to work for the love of it, I guess.

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Well we could simply take a look back on how we humans have evolved. For the past 100 thousand years, until just very recently, men were always the ones who hunted away from homes while the women gathered. They had the responsibility of carrying their child for 9 months. Some could say this isn't fair, but it's biology, not about fairness. Women also were genetically designed to have higher levels of body fats, lower levels of test, and many other biological traits that made them physically inferior to men. Thus it would only make sense for them to give the physical demanding tasks to men and do what they did, gather, cook, take care of the tribe.

Any intro level sociology class can explain this much better than I can. No I'm not being sexist or discriminating against women. I am simply explaining/analyzing societies and human kind. This brings in many different kinds of selection (intra, Darwinian) that results in what we have today. Men are physically better off, and in general are not as family oriented as women.

Now if you disagree then don't disagree with me, but disagree with humankind and society. Not even humans, look at any animal species. And you will see that it is very rare for the male counterpart to stick around after mating, most the time they never even meet their Cubs/pups/etc. if you want to remove the biases and opinions that humans have that could sway this data look no further. These are dumber animals (compared to humans), who have absolutely no capability of actual complex thought, and act entirely out of instincts and internal drives.

These are the same internal drives that drive mothers to be nourishing loving mothers. A drive that is absent in almost all male counterparts of all species, families, and kingdom. Obviously Homo sapiens in the 21st century are not at the same level of evolution as animals. But all of those instincts are still present, maybe a little more suppressed through conscious thought but nonetheless.

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Even adjusting for those factors (and more) there is a 5% gender pay gap.

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I mean that's what most of this sub believes. It's the whole "Elliot Roger" complex that you'll find on subs like /r/theredpill, /r/incel, and my personal favorite, /r/MGTOW. It's the "I deserve sex because this girl talked to me for more than 5 minutes" mentality that gets shot down so all the man-children turn into bitter losers who blame everyone else (SJWS!, FEMENISTS!) for their own inadequacies.

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[–]Swissguru4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Read the quote.

Then read what you yourself said.

I'm done with their games. I'm done with their bullshit.

vs

"I deserve sex because this girl talked to me for more than 5 minutes"

Allow me to contextualize, from a thread from that same subreddit on the "redpill rage", which is only one of the first stages of becoming MGTOW, similar to the grief cycle:

Red pill rage is about becoming an adult and learning to deal with the truth. Specifically (in this case) the truth is about women. They are not equals, they are not capable of loving you (not the way men understand love), you are not a person to them (only a utility) and everything they say or do is about "taming" you to serve them. Any interest a woman shows a man is only to gather information on how to manipulate that man better. Men are things to women that they need to survive, all else is secondary to this need to control men's utility.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/4l0qye/on_the_red_pill_rage/

In case you want to read the quote in context of the whole post.

MGTOW, as an idea (the exact implementation is really up to the man going his own way) is more about the man choosing to live for himself (and avoiding a system designed to grind him to death for women's benefit) than it is about hating women.

However, it's understandable how for someone seeing it for the first time, the way they talk about female nature seems like hating women.

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Subs in this subreddit seem to want to ignore those 5%, though. They will use anecdotal evidence to claim that it's "disproved", even the pinned mod post at the top says so.

It's clear that it's not 77% for the same job/position, but 5% is still a shitton of money.

And additionally, a lot of the criticism of the wage gap goes beyond "women are poor victims who are paid less for the same work". Instead, the criticism talks about how cultural effects make women take these choices. Childrearing plays a huge part in that and is routinely pushed onto women by our culture. While it's a work necessary for the survival of the country, and every parent knows it's a shitton of work, it's 100% unpaid.

Nobody is saying "this is the men's fault". It is everyone's fault. Pretty much every other developed nation has much stronger maternity laws. Elsewhere, there are incentives given to fathers to take half a year or more off work - while guaranteeing they are not fired! - to break with the current primary breadwinner dynamics.

Of course, that sounds way too socialist for some - but Reddit loves to play as if culture didn't exist, and everything was only down to personal choice. Which is why Reddit routinely doesn't get cultural criticism, and understands it as "you are blaming the men". I'm sure some folks ARE pushing that kind of blame, but most have a different understanding.

[–]Swissguru1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Instead, the criticism talks about how cultural effects make women take these choices.

It is everyone's fault

Nope.

Here's something to think about:

Men and women participate in sports in sex-segregated tourneys
This is because men's different physique will have them outperform women in every athletic field
This is a physical difference based on hormonal levels, mostly
The brain is a physical entity
Therefore men and women's brains work differently
Assuming that the way a man's brain works has him favour decisions which happen to lead to higher pay (risk taking, competitiveness, for example are proven more pronounced in male behavior) this explains what you insist on calling "cultural" effects. They're biological effects, not cultural ones.

Childrearing

work necessary for the survival of the country

So you expect to take a year off work to birth and raise a child, and still be paid the same as the otherwise 100% equal man (pre-maternity) who continued to work?

Raising a child is a decision. Own it and accept the consequences.

And no, your company doesn't and shouldn't care if the birthing of children is relevant to the survival of a nation.

every parent knows it's a shitton of work, it's 100% unpaid.

Unskilled labour, congratulations. Meanwhile your partner pays for your cushy caretaker/cleaner "job", but you get compensated in a (70+% female-initiated) divorce, which at this point has a more than 50% chance of happening. But that's another topic.

Elsewhere, there are incentives given to fathers to take half a year or more off work

This, if it exists at all, is only true for less countries than your hand has fingers. Longest example I could find was 10 weeks. As far as I am concerned, this doesn't exist even if it was a viable alternative. Nobody gives a shit about fathers.

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We're saying it's NOT TRUE and implying so is insanely sexist.

Actually madfrogurt was arguing that this appeals to male superiority, where in fact it's trying to give a legitimate explanation for the wage gap (whether or not you agree with the explanation is irrelevant to this point).

That you have some underlying assumption that men always do more work/work harder/smarter etc.

Not always, just statistically. I know plenty of women who are smarter, stronger, and harder-working than I. That said, on average, men are stronger, better equipped to be in certain fields (eg. the Army, Firefighters), and men do have a tendency towards the stem fields with women tending towards social jobs. That's just our biology.

No one is asking that secretaries get paid like petroleum engineers.

Any time someone uses that 77% statistically, that's what they are implying.

The wage gap is about women getting less money for the same jobs. Which is REAL

Citation needed.

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It's funny how you want to have a nuanced discussion but can't handle a single frame of a comic that "ignores the way women have historically been treated in the workplace that still affects us to this day." I'm sure you're totally ready to talk about the challenges men face in K-12 education or child care or any of the other female dominated professions that still effect us to this day.

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I said it earlier in this thread. Here it is again:

The wage gap as it's being taught -- $0.77/$1.00 does not actually take into account the difference in choice and other factors:

Children and family is a big one. Women spending time away from the work force to raise families.

Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more.

Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice, this is not saying that women do not as well, statistically they are just less likely to do so).

Men work in less desirable locations.

Men work longer hours than women do.

Men are more likely to work on weekends.

Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization.

On the flip side there is a good amount of evidence where women are excelling in the workplace:

Unmarried women who don't have children actually earn more than unmarried men.

Women in the tech field tend to have higher incomes than their male counterparts.

The truth of it is, it's not based on discrimination, it's more based on personal choice.

e: who would downvote this? So many of you just want to believe in the wage gap so you don't care what the truth is

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http://www.npr.org/2016/04/12/473992254/on-equal-pay-day-why-the-gender-gap-still-exists

Then don't take it from me, take it from this person who is a much better source of information.

But to be fair, I wont say discrimination has nothing to do with it since the person I linked to clearly says she assumes there is discrimination involved somewhere, just not as obvious as it was before, and not as much.

Women do not get discriminated against today like they used to. There is plenty of legislation and law against it, and even the culture of allowing it is changing. So women today don't get to use discrimination as a reason for being paid less like they used to. They enter into colleges at a higher rate then men, do better in college, and, from my own anecdotal view, have an easier time finding jobs than men in the same field. It's also not discrimination that women are usually the primary care takers, it may have been that way before, but everybody has options now.

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It's completely relevant, it's the entire point. If people didn't think the wage gap was from discrimination and everybody treated it like "the way things are" then we wouldn't be hearing about this the way we are. So it being called discrimination or not is absolutely relevant.
How would you work to make things better? Not all households can just hire somebody to be the primary care taker of their family, so these discrepancies will always show up. Somebody is always going to work more. If the culture shifted and men and women split care taking responsibilities there would still be a wage gap just like this, it just wouldn't be between men and women it would be care takers and non, does that sound like an issue that needs solving? Why is it an issue that somebody who works more gets paid more?

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again you are trolling or ignoring my statement, if men worked on housework more then women would be allowed to have the same number of paid work hours in a day. there are only 24 hours in a day and if a women has to do more hours at home they lose the hours at a paid job that could even the gap out more.

doing less chores is not an options. you have a messy house eventually then cps comes and takes the baby and you end up divorcing the husband all because he refused to do the same hours of housework that the wife did.

i never said it was discrimination or that someone is responsible. except of course the husband.

society is clearly at fault for the fact that housewife is more common than househusband. when society chooses housewife over househusband, it is less of a couples decision than you make it out to be.

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Well that's not how shit works bud.

i think thats how all scientific data is tested. you read the content and decide if you want to research different aspects of it and attempt to test the validity of it. i do not need to paraphrase a textbook for you. you can crack it open and try debunking it yourself on your own time and PM me your findings. good luck with that.

summarizing the millions of factors that contribute to a societal problem of this magnitude is impossible. no matter how many times you ask for a summary, it's not going to happen. the shortest summary is literally the size of that text book and i have said multiple times already it only SCRATCHES the surface of the problem. good luck with your research. maybe try taking a course in college on women's studies when you are old enough, it helps widen your perspective.

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Okay, last time I swear. So after you posted the video /u/k-otic14 responded by saying unpaid work should have no bearing on one's wage. After all, if you're not doing something for your employer, why should they pay you for it?

Your response (correct me if I'm wrong) was that it's unfair because women tend to do more housework and receive no compensation for it.

I have 2 responses to this. The first is that women are compensated for it, as they have access to the finances of the other individual. Recall that in my other comment I referenced the fact that single women make more than men, so they're not an issue here. But in married circumstances, where there is an imbalance of housework, the women would have access to the money the man is earning. So isn't that more or less fair?

My other response is that frankly, kotic is right. Couples have to find a balance between housework and paid work because that's life. Some choose to divide it evenly, while others choose a more nuclear approach. But that's up to them to decide, and I see no problem with this.

[–]Speedracer981 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

if they were compensated for it then the statistics would show it.

I do not mean that they are compensated in the sense that their work pays for it. I mean that they are compensated in the sense that they have access to their spouse's finances, thus they benefit from any additional income that their spouse generates (eg. overtime). It's not direct compensation, but it's compensation nonetheless.

frankly you are wrong

That is your subjective opinion.

if the choice is made by society that housewife does more unpaid work then that is society who is at fault for the gap.

Not really. This stems from biology; as women were the babymakers, men evolved to be stronger, and in society this translated to women taking the role of housewife because men were more equipped for labour (eg. farming, hunting, etc). Now you'd be right to argue that this is outdated, but it's less society's fault and more biology's.

Now you may say that's irrelevant (and frankly you're probably right) but the solution to this issue is not to pay women more. It's for men and women to have better relationships and do a better job at division of labour. There is no reason an employer should have to compensate for what goes on in one's home.

[–]Speedracer981 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

either they are compensated or they are not

They are not compensated by their employer, but they are (indirectly) by their spouse. I expand on that below.

they aren't getting paid in blowjobs so why are you splitting hairs.

Why are you being hostile?

and how is it somehow a guarantee that they have access to their spouse's finances? where is this magical contract?

This is generally how things work. When you buy a home together, for example, you look at what you can afford together, even if the earnings are imbalanced. I don't make the most in my household, but that doesn't matter.

This is what I mean by compensation. You work together as a unit. Sometimes I take on the chores, and sometimes I pass my chores on. But we work together as a unit, and we all benefit from this. If I lost my job, I would take on the chores of my spouse, allowing them to continue to work (or work extra) without any issues.

[–]Speedracer981 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

to make it seem as though she is being equally compensated in the work force.

Never said she was equally compensated, or that she was compensated in the workforce. Those are not my arguments.

just because rich people get millions a month in child support does not make the rest of women in the world equal. averages mean nothing.

I don't even understand where you're going with this.

I'm not talking about the rich or the divorced/separated. What I'm saying is that in a household, there is a certain amount of paid and unpaid work that needs to be done, and it's up to the household to distribute this optimally.

If in your home, optimal means everyone makes their own money and does their own chores, fine. But in mine, we are flexible and pass around the unpaid work as needed, because as a unit this is what benefits us all.

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norway is supposed to be the top example of fighting unequal pay in the workforce.

https://www.thelocal.no/20161028/norway-classifies-third-on-gender-gap-report-2016

the wage gap exists in all countries. even in norway.

It's not like you're going to take a guy who works at McDonald's and a girl who works at McDonald's and the guy is gonna earn more and a first-year male teacher with a master's degree won't earn more than a first-year female teacher with a master's degree.

that is exactly what is happening. it is not like they are all in a smoke filled room trying to find ways to pay women less. it happens though. intentional or not it is factually happening.

the "issue" is that female-dominated career paths pay less than male-dominated career paths.

if this were the only problem then you would not find coworkers that find out their male counterparts are paid more than them in the same company, with the same title, the same experience, the same seniority.

alright, all you women go be nurses and all you men go into the tech field.

there are many male nurses, i know a few of them and have been treated by other male nurses in the past.

Women are choosing to be nurses more than men and men are choosing to go into tech more than women. How is that an issue when people are deciding what they want to do?

you're misrepresenting the entire problem, these comparisons are made with male vs female in the same field, same job title, sometimes the same exact company as well. the problem stretches across many companies, with people that have the same certifications and experience and women are getting less money. all those excuses are accounted for when they make the charts. they are not excuses if the data has already adjusted to reflect those excuses.

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The "myth", as has been stated everywhere here, is that an individual woman is paid less than an individual man for the same job, with the same credentials and experience. That is illegal.

Women as a whole earn 77% of the money men as a whole earn. For a whole myriad of reasons. Some sexist, most not.

[–]InternetSafety101 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

This is the proper answer. It seems most people are really confused as to what the "wage gap" actually is referring to and the cause of the gap.

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At the same time, merely "doing the same job" is rarely the prime determining factor in wage/salary. You can find broad differences in salary among men in the same position at the same company, for instance. Everything from seniority to negotiating ability to performance to whatever else can contribute to a difference in pay.

I may have to go digging again, because I'm lazy about bookmarks, but it's my understanding that in most fields once you actually control for all variables the gender wage gap shrinks to low-single-digits. The prime contributor to the gender wage gap is women's choices. Find a man and woman, both of which are childless and both of which have made the same career choices, they make basically the same.

That our society has gender-based expectations as far as maternity versus paternity leaves of absences, child-rearing, primary breadwinners, etc. is another matter entirely. As is the disparity in pay negotiation ability (which is also fed by gender norms). This is still a feminist issue, it's just not as easily solved as "equal pay for equal work." It's about liberating women to make equal decisions in their career and family choices, absent stigmatizing both them and their partners. How many stay-at-home-dads do you know? I've known a couple, but it's not the norm in most communities, and among more conservative/traditional communities it is...discouraged. It's crazy, because Mr. Mom is a 25-year-old comedy and yet it's still something that's considered odd in our society. Dual incomes and splitting family responsibilities is fine, obviously (though you'll still find women are expected to prioritize kids over work more often)...but actual full-time stay-at-home dads? They seem significantly less common than stay-at-home moms.

So yeah...it exists, but it's not really that simple. Acknowledging this is one of the first steps towards fighting it, IMO.

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It’s a blog

Government blog with government-sourced statistics. Also, 2/4 of the links you provided are “blogs.”

written by a woman

Way to show your hand. There are plenty of male staff writers on the same blog that just as easily could have written that article.

that only makes unsupported assertions and circular reasoning

I’m willing to work with you here, but you have to give me something more direct and specific than an empty statement like that.

Some of the hyperlinks that they use to "support" these assertions don't even lead anywhere.

Yeah, dude, it’s from 2012. Are you referring to this one? Simple Googling and archive.org-ing can turn up any missing links from that article—they’re all well-referenced elsewhere.

The link that you gave doesn't account for leaves and overtime

That’s true; they didn’t adjust the numbers for leaves. I don’t understand how overtime affects this, though. I’m open to reading more about this. Also, I see how this affects averages but this shouldn’t affect medians, right?

Despite

Um, did I read this wrong? This article seems to reinforce the gap in its conclusion: “Women are less likely (for given observable characteristics) to be promoted, they receive lower wages in a given rank, they receive fewer job offers, gain lower financial rewards to outside offers…”

the

I thought we weren’t allowed to link to blogs?

evidence

From my earlier mention of leaves, you ask “why do men even have jobs in the first place? / There has to be some kind of financial gain…” I’d ask you to read this article. In its own words: “Roughly four-in-ten mothers said that at some point in their work life they had taken a significant amount of time off (39%) or reduced their work hours (42%) to care for a child or other family member.”

An expensive employee that works year-round > cheap employee that takes long leaves. The reason employers still hire men in droves over women is because men never take maternity leave, and statistically aren’t familial caregivers. As to how that affects the wage gap, I’m not making any comment. Either way, it’s a strawman argument to say “women aren’t the vast majority of the workforce therefore the pay gap is a myth.” The Economy is way more complicated than that.

otherwise

I don’t see a single source anywhere on this?

[–]SpeakTruthtoStupid15 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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There is an earnings gap and a wage gap. Both exist, and both are driven by a confounding amount of variables that deniers like yourself consciously choose to ignore. Female MBAs earn on average 15% less than male MBAs from the same school, directly after graduation. They have no children, they have the same degree from the same school, and the same experience. Wage gaps exist in different industries and in varying degrees of severity, and this also exist across racial lines.

You are correct that there is also an earnings gap, which is the term that most people should be referring to. Women typically earn much less across the span of a career than men, and this is largely reduced when we control for choices involving starting a family. That doesn't mean that the earnings gap doesn't exist, it means that we as a society need to have a conversation about why despite the fact that most households have two income earners, the majority of housework and child raising still falls to women. If we want equal opportunities for women to excel in the workforce, which is better for the economy as a whole, then we cannot flatly blame this on "choice", as societal norms has a huge role to play here.

[–]DrMiro2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ah societal norms I was waiting for this. Mate I'm sorry but if you can prove that someone slighted you because of gender you will make a shit load of money in court. Right now you are arguing against biology, it's not our fault that women are better at caring for children you can blame evolution for that. It makes perfect sense that the gender that didn't go out and deal with danger and had a higher chance of death didn't end up with the raising children instincts. What exactly is wrong with a woman wanting to stay at home and take care of her family if she wants? The most important thing is individual woman have the chance to go out and succeed if they want, but if they don't want that it's fine too. Women and men are fundamentally different, that means they will make different choices and not all of them are because of society and you're also implying these societal norms are "bad" I have yet to see you prove why.

[–]SpeakTruthtoStupid1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You seem to be applying a lot of value judgements to my comment that I didn't make. I'm saying there are external factors that make it more difficult for women to succeed in the workforce in similar levels to men. Those factors are mostly driven by societal norms. Many women find it frustrating that they need to choose between having a successful career and having a family, and given that in order for the human race to continue, we need to have families, maybe we should consider making it less punitive to do so. I don't think that is an unreasonable stance to take.

Please tell me where I argued that anyone should be sued, anywhere that I argued against biology, or anywhere that I implied fault. I would love to see it.

I really don't see what incentive you have to deny this. Data says that it might be worth having a conversation as a society about how we raise our families and who's responsibility that is. Being more aware of there phenomenon, having MORE information, can only be good for us as people.

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[–]ripfuturama2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cool, so show some me studies that take all possible factors into account and that after all possible factors are accounted for show that the wage gap exists, go ahead, I'll wait.

I'm sure you know better than my professors who have PhDs, the Department of Labor, Harvard, and the University of Chicago. lol

Well then they've seen studies I haven't (which considering their credentials isn't surprising). Maybe they can show them to you and you can show them to me and I can learn something new. Which would be awesome.

So please, show me a study that demonstrates there is a wage gap that takes into account;

-Wage differences per company.

-Haggling.

-Differences in training/education/work experience/tenure.

-Sorted by jobs with similar, if not identical, tasks performed by both men and women.

I am waiting for you to provide it with an open and eager mind.

[–]SpeakTruthtoStupid1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ripfuturama1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I can assist with reading it if need be.

That would be great, I've never seen stats presented like that.

3 quick things from what I've been able to gather;

1.) This seems to only apply to MBA students, unless I'm getting that wrong, but even so it does show that their is a gap, of 4%.

2.) If you can prove that at least one realm of professional workers (from what I can tell, again, I think I got the gist of the data but I could totally be wrong here) has a gap of 4% isn't it extremely dishonest to still push the "23%" narrative, even though even that is 100% false because over the last few year the overall (unadjusted) average has lowered to 20%?

3.) This one is a little dumb but does this take into account negotiating (haggling) for a higher salary (I only ask because I didn't notice it in the other factors)? I don't know how it works for MBA recipients but in some fields 4% is easily explained by haggling. Hell I know people who've got an extra 10% on offer price just because they asked for giggles. Not only that, but I know men who do the same job and get paid way more than a 4% difference, just because they're better at negotiating or because their tenure means every time they try to leave they get a pay raise. Of course this is probably anecdotal at best but it's just a thought.

Regardless, this was extremely well put together information and I appreciate the time you took to present it to me.

[–]SpeakTruthtoStupid1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No worries, a few things to consider:

I'm not super familiar with the entire body of literature around the gender wage gap, but yes I would say that anyone who is implying that women are paid 23% less on grounds of pure discrimination is being at least a little dishonest. However, that doesn't mean that the other factors driving down those wages aren't important to explore. Are women on the whole working less hours? If so, why is that? Do they feel that the majority of household work falls to them so they cannot work longer hours? Are they not encouraged to work longer hours in the workplace? Are the opportunities not there? Data like this presents opportunities to better understand what is happening. I just think everyone in this thread is so quick to pretend like nothing is happening, and it's intellectually dishonest to do so.

The gap narrows to about 4% when holding all other factors constant in the regression equation, but those other factors all have their own coefficients that also drive down female wages that are worth discussing.

On page 2 the paper discusses briefly the idea that women may be less likely to negotiate for salary as a factor in driving down their average wages. I think it's a compelling theory but I don't think it makes the findings here any less impactful. If women are much less likely to negotiate, why is that? Why are girls not encouraged to value their own work and try for a higher salary? This is an actionable finding if true.

Table 6 represents the regression model that they built based on their data. Some interesting takeaways would be found by looking at the coefficient values in the last column which utilizes the full model, controlling for all factors, finance classes, work gaps, experience, hours worked, etc. One interesting one would be that having a "no work spell" (for example, maternity leave) is associated with having a 17.3% lower salary. I think in general data like this can inform a discussion about whether or not the nature of our economy provides an environment that is friendly for women to work in given the responsibilities that we place on them as a society. Do I think women deserve to make significantly less money over the course of their career if they take maternity leave? Not really, but I'm sure others would disagree with me. My only intention is to get people to engage with and understand the best information that we have available.

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First off, this was filed in a blog, not the actual Department of Labors official statement. Secondly, pay is based off of merit and experience. That blog starts off by saying that more women have bachelor's degrees than men do. But in what field? Certain jobs pay certain wages. You can not expect to make more than someone else just because you have a degree. You need skills and actual knowledge of your craft. A male who decides to major in aerospace engineering is obviously going to make more than a female who majored in education. And in the same way, a female with an aerospace engineering degree will earn more than a male with a degree in education. The, "statistic," that is most often quoted takes the average of all women's pay, and the average of all men's pay, then puts them side by side. More men dominate in the fields that pay more. My supervisor where I work is a female. She has a degree, and is working on a second. She works long hours, she voluntarily is on call 24/7. She has 10 more years of experience than I do. And she makes exponentially more money than I do. Pay is based on what the company believes you are worth. And you have to negotiate that price. If you accept a job that pays less without trying to negotiate more, then that is your fault. Not the employers fault.

[–]AATroop 15 points16 points17 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheChronographer 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just FYI, none of the sources you linked corrected even for the most basic of "How many hours did the person work?" in the 20-30% gap figure quoted in 'the myth'. For example, sources in your third link state: "While a portion of this gap can be explained by various factors, an apples-to-apples comparison looking at workers one year out of college and controlling for factors known to affect earnings, such as major, occupation, and hours worked reveals there is still an unexplainable 7 percent gender pay gap."

I am not 100% familiar with US department of Labor stats, but I believe they count everyone working 35 or more hours as full time. So if, for sake of argument, men work 45 hours per week and women worked 36 hours per week this would account for a huge portion of the 'wage gap'.

I recently got into a Facebook argument with a friend due to a similar confusion. They shared an article which stated that 'women in Iceland make 18% less than men'. But the sources they linked showed that women earned 18% less, and worked 20% less due to working less hours (even when comparing 'women full time to male full time workers'). I agree with you that there are issues, for example more men do engineering and engineering is paid more than nursing, but I believe using manipulated statistics is misleading and hurts the cause of income equality for women.

[–]ChestBras 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The US Department of Labor BLOG
Pamela Coukos is the Founding Principal at Working IDEAL.
Working IDEAL provides trusted, effective and innovative advice on inclusive workplaces, diverse talent and fair pay to large and small companies, universities, non-profits, unions and other organizations across the nation.

She is LITERALLY a diversity consultant.
Pushing the myth of the wage gap is her bread and butter.

Nowhere does she make the case that two people, of different sexe, doing the same job, and getting the same results, are going to be paid a different hourly rate.

In reality, this is the wage gap

If you find a company that is paying women less than men for the same job, you can sue them.
This about never happens.

You will find no sentence in that report which combines all of following "same job, same amount of work (hours worked), different gender, statistically significant hourly rate". The weaseling is always done by omitting one major characteristic which accounts for the actual difference.

It is completely dishonest, anti-science, anti-fact, anti-intellectualism, and will only undermine any actual possible injustice which could happen, because after crying wolf and fire for so long without cause, nobody is going to mind them an ounce when actual injustice will show up.

But sure, keep pushing those lies and keep undermining women, it just shows who actually hates women.

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The same US department of Labor commissioned a report by Consad Research Corp and it came to the conclusion that the "study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers."

The report was also quite scathing of those who parrot the women earning the 77 cents to the man's dollar for the same job stating that "despite these gains the raw wage gap continues to be used in misleading ways to advance public policy agendas without fully explaining the reasons behind the gap".

In conclusion its a complicated issue however it is unlikely that the gap will ever be 0 because you simply cannot adjust for all the variables that contribute to a person's wage.

https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy-issues/documents/gender%20wage%20gap%20final%20report.pdf

[–]darth_hotdog2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The wage gap is real, every study ever done finds there's a gap, and every study ever done looking for discriminatory causes finds them. Every "article" claiming there's no wage gap is merely citing SOME of the more women blaming causes, and then without proof, implying that they cause the entire gap.

I know I'll probably get downvoted here because everyone seems to want to talk shit about how awful they think women are, but I hope you guys will keep an open mind and consider this: I'm a guy who knows the "pussypass" is real, it's caused by society thinking women are fragile and not responsible for their actions, it's old fashioned thinking that women are like children. Because of that, judges don't want to punish them, and people let them get away with shit. FOR THE SAME REASON, women earn less. They earn less for the same jobs, they're less likely to be hired for high paying positions, and they're less likely to be given raises and promotions. I'll explain:

Women DO make 77% as much as men on average. That's undisputed. The argument against the wage gap is that "it is caused by differences such a job position, hours worked, education, and experience". First of all, that's a lie, those differences only cause PART of the wage gap. There's a 7% gap remaining when accounting for all of those factors. Meaning that women get paid on average 7% less for the same work. The excuses conveniently omit or gloss over the fact that they are unable to explain the whole gap with their excuses.

Second, to imply that "differences in job position" are not caused by sexism is dishonest. If a company only hired men for high paying engineering positions, and only hired women to be secretaries, then banned secretaries from overtime while the engineers were required to do it. Do you think that means "there's no wage gap" in that company? Of course not. So why use that poor logic to say there's no wage gap in the country?

There's also a TON of evidence of discrimination, they've done studies where they send out identical resumes but switching only the man's name to a woman's name. The identical resumes with men's names got hundreds of callbacks, the women's almost none. A study asking what people would pay an employee was also found the drop by thousands of dollars when changing a name on paper from male to female:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

"Half the scientists were given the application with a male name attached, and half were given the exact same application with a female name attached. Results found that the “female” applicants were rated significantly lower than the “males” in competence, hireability, and whether the scientist would be willing to mentor the student."

"The scientists also offered lower starting salaries to the “female” applicants: $26,507.94 compared to $30,238.10."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html

"Their study, which was coauthored by Carnegie Mellon researcher Lei Lai, found that men and women get very different responses when they initiate negotiations. Although it may well be true that women often hurt themselves by not trying to negotiate, this study found that women's reluctance was based on an entirely reasonable and accurate view of how they were likely to be treated if they did. Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were "less nice"."

"What we found across all the studies is men were always less willing to work with a woman who had attempted to negotiate than with a woman who did not," Bowles said. "They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not."

Here are some sources:

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/08/3424043/gender-wage-gap-myth/

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

http://blog.dol.gov/2012/06/07/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/

http://blog.dol.gov/2013/06/07/50-down-50-to-go-myth-busting-the-pay-gap-revisited/

TL;DR: If you believe women are treated differently because of the "pussypass", you should be able to see that the same old-fashioned ideas that cause it also cause employers to consider women less valuable employees, and scientific studies have proven that is the cause of many of the "differences in job position" that people blame the women for.

[–]Zelduuhh3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I know I'll probably get downvoted here because everyone seems to want to talk shit about how awful they think women are

Don't worry, if I downvote you it won't be because I think women are awful. My sister is my favorite person in the world. That doesn't bear relevance here.

Women DO make 77% as much as men on average. That's undisputed. The argument against the wage gap is that "it is caused by differences such a job position, hours worked, education, and experience". First of all, that's a lie, those differences only cause PART of the wage gap. There's a 7% gap remaining when accounting for all of those factors.

I would say it's borderline a lie to say the difference is 77% when you're treating all jobs as the same. It is interesting though, that the more factors you compensate for, the smaller the gap gets. Why do you suppose that trend would not continue?

If a company only hired men for high paying engineering positions, and only hired women to be secretaries, then banned secretaries from overtime while the engineers were required to do it.

That's a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. If you find a case of this, please do bring it to the attention of the law.

Sources:

For future references, try to use sources to support particular claims, rather than just listing a whole bunch for our leisure.

[–]darth_hotdog1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would say it's borderline a lie to say the difference is 77% when you're treating all jobs as the same...

Why? It's not dishonest to say there's 77% difference in what men and women earn even if that's what they earn. It sounds to me like you're saying "It's dishonest because it implies that women earn 23% less solely due to discrimination and no other reason, which is not true". But no one is saying that. That's a straw man.

...when you're treating all jobs as the same. It is interesting though, that the more factors you compensate for, the smaller the gap gets. Why do you suppose that trend would not continue?

The gap doesn't get smaller if you "account" for every known factor, you simply are ignoring causes of the gap and claiming a number that has no meaning.

If you account for every known cause of global warming, does that mean global warming doesn't exist? If you were to magically know EVERY cause of the gap including discrimination and account for all of the causes you would arrive at 0% gap, but that doesn't mean there's no wage gap.

When you "Account" for something like "difference in job position", you are IGNORING a difference in pay that is partially caused by discrimination. So what's happening is that women are earning 23% less, SOME of that is due to discrimination, some other reasons, and someone like you is saying "I understand all the reasons therefore there's no problem."

That's a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. If you find a case of this, please do bring it to the attention of the law.

Ah, the old "Murder is illegal therefore it must never happen" argument. People always say that about the wage gap.

And that's really the best evidence of discrimination causing a large portion of the wage gap, the fact that thousands of people DO bring lawsuits for things like this. Of course, that's easier said than done. Most people don't know co-workers salaries, even if you do it's difficult to prove gender discrimination, and even if you do that most people aren't willing to sue their employers. And yet despite that, thousands of lawsuits are won against employers for gender based discrimination.

For future references, try to use sources to support particular claims, rather than just listing a whole bunch for our leisure.

I've noticed that on reddit, if someone says the wage gap is "fake", they're widely applauded and never asked for sources. But anyone says the wage gap is real and/or has discriminatory components. No source is good enough. I've literally had people say "I don't like the way this chart is labelled on page 35 of the study so I will disregard this entire study".

Try to view both sides of this "debate" with the same scrutiny and mistrust that you view my arguments.

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It sounds to me like you're saying "It's dishonest because it implies that women earn 23% less solely due to discrimination and no other reason, which is not true". But no one is saying that. That's a straw man.

People literally say "Women (are) paid 77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men" (That's from Obama's campaign ad, by the way). It's not a strawman when people are literally using that quote to say women are paid 23% less for the same work.

The gap doesn't get smaller if you "account" for every known factor

What do you mean? I can name you three factors just off the top of my head that easily account for a large portion of the supposed wage gap (field of employment, hours worked, and negotiated salary).

If you account for every known cause of global warming, does that mean global warming doesn't exist?

No, but this is a false comparison. With the wage gap, the argument is that there's a wage gap due to discrimination. No one argues that women are making less; they're arguing that they're earning less for the same work, or that they're earning less due to discrimination.

If you were to magically know EVERY cause of the gap including discrimination and account for all of the causes you would arrive at 0% gap, but that doesn't mean there's no wage gap.

If we knew that discrimination was a factor, then the essence of that argument (that there is wage discrimination) would be true.

When you "Account" for something like "difference in job position", you are IGNORING a difference in pay that is partially caused by discrimination.

Would you elaborate on that?

SOME of that is due to discrimination, some other reasons, and someone like you is saying "I understand all the reasons therefore there's no problem."

I have yet to accept the premise that discrimination plays a real role in this at all.

Ah, the old "Murder is illegal therefore it must never happen" argument.

That's a strawman of my position. To use your analogy, I'm not saying "There are laws against murder therefore it doesn't happen." I'm saying "If you have evidence that someone was murdered, let's take it to the law! Why aren't we going to the law!"

the fact that thousands of people DO bring lawsuits for things like this.

And they fail. There was a case a while back where a CEO tried to argue that she was underpaid compared to her predecessor, and a jury (which was mostly female) ruled against her.

Most people don't know co-workers salaries

I agree with you here; co-worker's salaries shouldn't be kept a secret.

thousands of lawsuits are won against employers for gender based discrimination.

Many are won, but many are lost as well.

I've noticed that on reddit, if someone says the wage gap is "fake", they're widely applauded and never asked for sources.

Typically people don't ask others to prove a position they already agree with.

But anyone says the wage gap is real and/or has discriminatory components. No source is good enough. I've literally had people say "I don't like the way this chart is labelled on page 35 of the study so I will disregard this entire study".

All I can ask is that you try not to mischaracterize me.

Try to view both sides of this "debate" with the same scrutiny and mistrust that you view my arguments.

The best I can do is to try and assure you that I have. If that's not enough for you, then you'll have to rely on the contents of my arguments.

[–]darth_hotdog1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People literally say "Women (are) paid 77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men" (That's from Obama's campaign ad, by the way). It's not a strawman when people are literally using that quote to say women are paid 23% less for the same work.

Normally those are two separate claims. Women take home 77 cents on the dollar. And women earn less for the same job. It's absolutely a straw man to take the worst argument (that one obama tv ad) and say the entire wage gap is a myth because of it.

Not to mention, if you consider the argument that a man and woman putting in the same EFFORT end up with different job positions, hours, and thus pay, then you could make the argument that "for the same work" women earn 77%. I wouldn't phrase it that way myself, but it does make some sense.

What do you mean? I can name you three factors just off the top of my head that easily account for a large portion of the supposed wage gap (field of employment, hours worked, and negotiated salary).

What I'm saying is those don't "Shrink" the wage gap. They just "explain" it. Explaining something doesn't make it not exist. The gap is still there, you've just provided a partial explanation for it.

No, but this is a false comparison. With the wage gap, the argument is that there's a wage gap due to discrimination. No one argues that women are making less; they're arguing that they're earning less for the same work, or that they're earning less due to discrimination.

That's a straw man again. The wage gap is largely due to discrimination, but not solely.

If we knew that discrimination was a factor, then the essence of that argument (that there is wage discrimination) would be true.

There is no question whether or not discrimination is a factor. You can't just keep pretending that there's no evidence. Every scientific study ever done looking for evidence of discrimination finds tons of it. No study has ever found there not to be discrimination, and all the explanations you offer (hours worked, job position, etc) have been found to themselves be caused partially by discrimination. Not to mention, all the explanations you offer only explain SOME of the gap, they leave a 7% gap remaining with no other explanation besides discrimination.

"When you "Account" for something like "difference in job position", you are IGNORING a difference in pay that is partially caused by discrimination." Would you elaborate on that?

For the sake of understanding my argument, assume for a moment that if the gender is known, women are less likely to be hired than a man with an identical resume and qualifications. And that women are also less likely to be given raises and promotions then a man with the same qualifications and work performance:

In that situation, eventually, men would be preferentially hired for the more desirable high paying jobs, and would be given more raises and promotions than women who equally deserved them. And despite putting in just as much effort, those women would now be earning less money.

In that scenario, a difference in job position, and by way of that, hours worked and experience would itself be CAUSED by discrimination. So if you ignore any differences in pay caused by those differences in job, hours, or experience, you would be ignoring the differences in pay which are caused by discrimination.

I have yet to accept the premise that discrimination plays a real role in this at all.

Clearly. Do you accept the premise that vaccines don't cause autism? Do you accept the premise that humans are causing climate change? There is a ton of scientific evidence of discrimination. How can you read about studies like these and still deny it?:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html

https://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/blind-auditions-orchestras-gender-bias

Not to mention that when adjusting for job position, hours worked, education, and experience, the wage gap doesn't disappear, it only drops from 23% to 7%. What is your explanation for that 7% gap?

That's a strawman of my position. To use your analogy, I'm not saying "There are laws against murder therefore it doesn't happen." I'm saying "If you have evidence that someone was murdered, let's take it to the law! Why aren't we going to the law!"

What if I told you "murders don't happen in the US". You would say they do. So what would you say if I responded "Well if murders happen, why don't you go to the law about it?". Simply put, you can't just go to a police station and say "This crime is occurring out there in the world. Go stop it. And that's not an argument to disprove something is happening.

I can't go sue anyone because this isn't about me. I can't just sue random companies because they might not be paying fairly. As a self-employed man I'm not in a position to sue anyone about gender based pay. People DO sue for this, and thousands win every year. That should be the evidence you need.

And they fail. There was a case a while back where a CEO tried to argue that she was underpaid compared to her predecessor, and a jury (which was mostly female) ruled against her.

Some murder charges fail, so does that mean murder doesn't happen?

Typically people don't ask others to prove a position they already agree with.

Can you not see the problem with that?

All I can ask is that you try not to mischaracterize me.

The best I can do is to try and assure you that I have. If that's not enough for you, then you'll have to rely on the contents of my arguments.

I do believe you are confident in what you believe. It's amazing how convincing this "wage-gap denial" movement is. It was actually pioneered by a conservative think tank known as American Enterprise Institute. Which is also the think tank that pioneered the climate change denial movement. It's a massive political campaign especially since obama started talking about it. Women's salaries shouldn't be a politically polarized topic. They should be fair and equal.

Just keep in mind. All the arguments against the gap fail to scientifically disprove any of these key arguments:

There's a wage gap. Every scientific study ever done finds it, it's about 77%
there's ZERO evidence the "excuses" explain more than around 60% of the gap.
There's ZERO evidence the excuses aren't largely caused by discrimination themselves.
And there's serious scientific evidence of discrimination causing a large portion of the wage gap. Every scientific study looking for discriminatory causes of the gap finds tons of evidence.

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women take home 77 cents on the dollar. And women earn less for the same job. It's absolutely a straw man to take the worst argument (that one obama tv ad) and say the entire wage gap is a myth because of it.

That's a straw man again. The wage gap is largely due to discrimination, but not solely.

It’s not a straw man if it’s an actual argument; some do argue that women make $0.77 for the same work, or that the wage gap is just due to discrimination. But if that’s not your argument, I’ll gladly not treat it as such.

What I'm saying is those don't "Shrink" the wage gap. They just "explain" it. Explaining something doesn't make it not exist.

You're right, so I'll update to reflect this. I don't believe women are paid less due to discrimination. When I'm "shrinking" the gap, I mean that I'm shrinking the space where discrimination might be.

You can't just keep pretending that there's no evidence.

I get that you're passionate, but I'd rather you not treat me as intellectually dishonest.

No study has ever found there not to be discrimination... Not to mention, all the explanations you offer only explain SOME of the gap, they leave a 7% gap

For one, here's a lazy source (Times) that shows that accounting for various factors can reverse the gap.

all the explanations you offer... have been found to themselves be caused partially by discrimination

Well at the least you must assess that on a case-by-case basis. For instance, women who took maternity have a lower wage than women who haven’t. Is that discriminatory?

In that scenario, a difference in job position, and by way of that, hours worked and experience would itself be CAUSED by discrimination. So if you ignore any differences in pay caused by those differences in job, hours, or experience, you would be ignoring the differences in pay which are caused by discrimination.

I can concede that a hiring/promotional bias would also have a chain effect on other factors that may otherwise not be rooted in discrimination. But that’s contingent on proving such a bias.

Do you accept the premise that vaccines don't cause autism? Do you accept the premise that humans are causing climate change?

Yes.

How can you read about studies like these and still deny it?

Science isn't "all-or-nothing." I agree with findings I find reasonable, and a discrimination-based earnings disparity is not among them.

A quick response to your 3 sources.

Have a look at this study. It actually found a 2:1 bias favouring women in STEM. Additionally, it' slightly more recent (2014 v 2012), has a greater sample size (873 v 127) and it accounts for lifestyle. But to draw from your article, I do like the concept of gender-neutral applications.
Sadly this article doesn’t link to the study. It does sort of explain itself though; women are paid less because they negotiate less. The article doesn’t favour the biological explanation for why men negotiate more, but I do. (Also, check out this study on gender and negotiation)
This doesn’t account for in-group preference, as the sexes of the jury members wasn’t noted. Because the orchestra is mostly men (at least from the time of this data) the jury likely reflected this. Additionally, please note figures 3 and 4. It appears that the ratio of new hires is proportional to the ratio of new Juilliard graduates. Finally, note that people stray from groups where they feel underrepresented, like men from teaching.

What if I told you "murders don't happen in the US".

The murder rate is so statistically insignificant you could generalize that it doesn't happen, and you'd be right. In that sense, I'm okay with saying there is no gender discrimination. Now, much like murder, statistical insignificance doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue, but that's where you turn to the law. I contest that a few specific instances are representative of the grand state of affairs.

Not to mention that when adjusting for job position, hours worked, education, and experience, the wage gap doesn't disappear, it only drops from 23% to 7%. What is your explanation for that 7% gap?

It’s the same as for the other 16%. Every factor you consider makes the “unexplained” gap shrink.

Some murder charges fail, so does that mean murder doesn't happen?

Either specific instances are just specific instances, in which case you can't argue that people sue and win, or specific instances are indicative of a greater trend, in which case the CEO example was relevant.

Typically people don't ask others to prove a position they already agree with.

Can you not see the problem with that?

If someone says they support vaccination, your first response would not be to question them. It’s normal to hold a position until contrary evidence is presented.

It's amazing how convincing this "wage-gap denial" movement is.

I could say the same, but I wouldn't.

It was actually pioneered by a conservative think tank known as American Enterprise Institute.

The origin of an idea bears no relevance on its validity.

[–]defund_pph1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]King_Caelestis1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Even one year out of college, within the same major, field and hours worked

Nurses and doctors can have the same major, field, and hours worked. Should they be paid the same? Even an average female doctor should earn more than an average male nurse.

The other article you linked is even worse. It literally just compares full time men to full time women.

You can't just link whatever bullshit you want to fit your agenda. If you think it's only reddit that says it, just look up "gender pay gap" on google and you see plenty of evidence that shows it's just a myth.

I mean, personally I don't agree with calling it a myth. Obviously it exists, it's just something that makes sense and has logical, non sexist reasons for it.

The real issue isn't that women aren't paid fairly, it's that we live in a society where women don't work the same jobs, because of social stigma and pressure and whatnot.

[–]Kingsfan-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Swissguru1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

http://www.aauw.org/resource/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

Did you know that in 2015, women working full time in the United States typically were paid just 80 percent of what men were paid

Look at their PDF. Go to page 6:

http://www.aauw.org/aauw_check/pdf_download/show_pdf.php?file=The-Simple-Truth

Do you realize that these fucking idiots simply compare median earnings of ALL WOMEN WORKING FULL TIME, REGARDLESS OF THE FIELD THEY WORK IN vs the same number for men?

The very basis of that article is so statistically flawed any respectable university should ridicule them out the door.

The very factor of women becoming mothers will EASILY destroy the majority of the earnings (not pay!) gap that your "statistics" claim exists. (they're not, it's a clearly agenda driven pile of garbage which fails the very basics of what a study would include as factors)

https://blog.dol.gov/2012/06/07/myth-busting-the-pay-gap

REALITY: The size of the pay gap depends on how you measure it. The most common estimate is based on differences in annual earnings (currently about 23 cents difference per dollar). Another approach uses weekly earnings data (closer to an 18- or 19-cent difference).

Exactly the same mistake as the other link.

Aaaand obviously the department of labour's GUEST post by "the vice president of government relations for the American Association of University Women" makes the same basic mistake:

https://blog.dol.gov/2015/10/20/the-high-cost-of-unequal-pay

The gender pay gap is real, and it hurts women and families. It’s not myth, it’s math. Did you know that in 2014, women working full time in the United States were paid on average just 79 percent of what men were paid?

Do you read the sources you quote?

Could you please provide me how those studies segregate their 80% claims by industry? That number in particular is ONLY the comparison of averages accross ALL full time workers.

[–]Salamander991 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I want you to know that you have not wasted your time with this post.

I have read through your sources and going through the researchgate.net one on 'Outside Offers And The Gender Pay Gap: Empirical Evidence From the UK Academic Labour Market' that /u/LickNipMcSkip posted. I hate to admit defeat, but it seems that in the UK and the US, the gender pay gap does exist.

I noted that the 'Myth Busting the Pay Gap' (June 7, 2012) article on the US Department of Labor blog links to a PDF on the US Department of Labor Stastics site that has a breakdown of annual averages between men and women in full time employment across different occupations.

'The High Cost of Unequal Pay'' (October 20, 2015) article states, "Editor’s Note: The following guest post is by Lisa Maatz, the vice president of government relations for the American Association of University Women." This would indicate a clear bias toward the subject, however, since it is hosted on the US Department of Labor's blog, then I will take that as meaning that the opinion is endorsed by the US Department of Labor.

I have also read the 'The Simple Truth about the Gender Pay Gap (Spring 2017) ' article on the American Association of University Women website, which concludes with the following as a solution.

"The Paycheck Fairness Act would improve the scope of the Equal Pay Act, which hasn’t been updated since 1963, with stronger incentives for employers to follow the law, enhance federal enforcement efforts, and prohibit retaliation against workers asking about wage practices. Tell the Congress to take action for equal pay."

I am still reading through the findings of the researchgate.net article, but what I have come across so far is,

"...We conﬁrm the results in the literature that there is a signiﬁcant gender promotions gap. In contrast to Ginther and Hayes (2003 ) and Ward (2001), we also ﬁnd that there is a signiﬁcant within-rank pay gap... "

"...The results are consistent with the ‘loyal servant’ hypothesis that women are believed to be less likely to leave their current employment, perhaps due to family commitments..."

Fuck! Now I have to concede a point to those damn feminists.

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(yes, these take industries and

That is true. In one study. That only shows salaries and no outside factors.

.

and many factors into account)

This is false for the only study that gave meaningful data, while they do take factors into account in others they do it with generalizations.

The best study on there for showing the gap; https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf because it actually shows that woman in fact do make less money than men, doesn't break it down by company, account for haggling (which is a thing), and what the differences in training/education/work experience/tenure are.

I'd be extremely interested in seeing a study that actually takes all factors into account and could actually prove a wage gap exists (while actually taking all factors into account), but that would require every single employer in the nation to release employee records so that the pay, hiring, and qualifications data could be examined. This breaks privacy laws, and causes issues with contractors who get paid different salaries (which happens, regardless of gender), meaning it will probably never happen.

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None is hating woman in general. This cartoon is only showing how clueless some sjw look when they qq about the paygap. We see social gender studies people wanting the same amount of money as engineers or doctors? Because is what they ate asking when they show this type of statistics.

We should glorify any woman or man that is taking less money to give birth or have more time to raise their child because of their choice. They are helping our country when they gives us another generation well raised. They are contributing for your future also because when you're old if there were no good raise kid there will not be anyone to sell you the services you need to take care of yoi. Is how a good society work. Although this is not excuse to ask for people who this decision to be paid as much a others who give more to their employer. Kids are future investment, a decision you take that will cost money for 18-30 year but after will make tou cach a lot and other will also benefit from it but have to pay.

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It is a myth that women get 77% less paid than a man, there is however an earnings gap, meaning women in general, very broadly do take home less money than men do. For a number of reasons, that I'm sure you can think of your whole damn self. It's not so hard to figure out my fucking idiot friend.

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Even if it really worked that way, that would require there to be too many jobs for a company to "lose all their employees". Secondly, in a capitalist society it makes perfect sense to pay people as little as you can. Thirdly, it's normally the same people who say the wage gap is fake, that say "criminals don't follow the law" so, since in your mind, everyone always follows the law, we must not have any rape, murder or theft and everyone who buys a gun as a "private sale" didn't really buy it from a "new friend" at a gun show.... right? Your logic is entirely flawed... to it's core. To say NO WOMAN EVER gets paid less than a man, because she is a woman, is STATISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE..... entirely false.... more likely to win the lottery type odds. There is at least one business owner in this country..... who is either sexist or just doesn't think the women work as hard.. so pays them less. At least 1... so for you to say "no one does that, everyone follows the law" is just stupid.

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As a woman I've always felt if you cannot do the job then you shouldn't have it. I grew up with firemen since my mom was a firefighter. She had to go through the exact same training as all the men. When she felt her knees couldn't take it anymore she retired as a fireman and worked simply as a paramedic for her own ambulance company. Maybe I have a different perspective because of how I grew up, but if you can't do the same work then you shouldn't be offered the job or be paid the same as those who can.

Women have different bodies and capabilities for the most part. I've never understood the issue. You cannot have a career in a field you cannot handle physically, emotionally, whatever! Coworkers suffer and there's a person out there whose opportunity was taken away because preference was given to an under qualified female. It's bullshit.

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Feminists want equality as long as it's in their best interest, when it's not, they don't want it anymore.

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The gender wage gap has already been debunked, and is only pettled by 24 hour news networks looking to sensationalize shit for pageviews/mentions/ratings, or liberal politicians that believe their constituency to be hive minded ignorant folk.

Let's move on from this, because it's already been defeated. What's the next battle?

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I could post 700 links and you could post another 700 links, the end all be all is the following.

The gender wage gap is 23 cents on the dollar if you grab the average pay of all males and women that work more than 35 hours a week and you compare them. That's the metric that got that result, which leaves A LOT of things outside.

a) Career-choice.

b) Job-choice.

c) Hours worked.

d) Family-first.

The gender wage gap comes from the interpretation of this data. We can say that all this things (like family-first) are stuff the society EXPECTS from women and the reality of the economy nowadays is that if someone can be available at any time for a meeting and a mother decides that's it's family/kids time then the pay will be different. The reality is that the gender gap is real, as long as you think that all this things are the fault of a society that pressures or incentivizes women to do certain things, and for others the gender gap is not real because all this things at the end of the day goes down as PERSONAL CHOICE.

So no, no one goes and says "You're a women so I can/will pay you less", THAT part has been debunked.

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Incorrect, an economics degree is worthless until you have a specialty.

If you think someone in communications can manage a business top down you are fucking insane. Not only do I run the web department where I work because I also took the time to learn web coding, but I also own half the business and deal with all the financial aspects and am the sole reason for half a million extra revenue coming in this year because I went home at night and ran game theory before I made all my pitches. They were calculated and worked exactly as predicted because I had enough insight into the other companies' business models, assets, overall value and current revenue projections.

If you ever in your life think that someone with a communications degree could even hold a flame to me you are seriously daft.

The only thing I'll give you in that economics is worthless unless you apply yourself. But communications is worthless period. There's a difference. One allows for opportunity, the other is a dead end.

[–]Owenh10 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Great, except I wasn't talking about what you done personally with your degree. I was talking generally and generally, yes an economics degree is just as useless as a communications degree. Both are soft sciences. Any kind of degree that deals with many theories and scientists debating eachother is technically useless. You do realise that anyone can start and manage a business? Do you think that every business ever created has a guy with an economics degree at the top? Of course not, that is ludicrous. i could find people who are infinitely more successful than you are that never even went to university or got a degree. So your argument is ridiculous. As if your degree matters. Anyone can get a loan and apply themselves and start a very succesful business. Come back to me when you have you degree in structural engineering or some other applied science and then id agree with you that your degree is relevant. I would certainly agree with you if your degree was in finance or accountancy but a straight economics degree? Nah man, its not the degree that got you where you are today, its the person behind the degree. Economcs is so broad and general of a soft science that most of it is just theories. Just like linguistics.

Your point about applying yourself goes for everyy single degree out there. You make it sound like you can only be succesful in life if you go out and get your economics degree. Its so incredibly naive its laughable.

[–][deleted]1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As someone who works in full-service advertising I can tell you that YES anyone can start and manage a business, but 90% of them are doing it extremely poorly and take losses because they are not business-minded enough. They have passion, but that doesn't mean shit if you don't know general business and financing.

I stopped reading your comment after the first few sentences because you clearly are delusional in regards to the difference between a business owner, and a Business Man/Woman that owns their own business.

Also, known fact in the business colleges: the two top degrees that benefit from an MBA - Chemical Engineering (typically raises your salary ~400% to get an MBA after getting that degree) and Economics (typically raises your salary two-fold after getting that degree).

If that doesn't tell you something I'm not sure what does. Especially since the average salary increase from an MBA is usually only 10-25%.

Clearly there is value in Economics if you take it far enough. I don't see anyone with an MBA that studied communications making anything near what folks who have an MBA and took economics do. No I'm not going to go dig up statistics to win an argument, but I should mention that most communications majors would even be able to analyze the statistics if they read them. So think about that too.

Your most delusional point is claiming Econ is a soft science because it deals with theories. But what you are refering to is the gen. ed econ classes that nearly all majors take to fulfill their requirements. When you get into advanced economics, it's hardly theory theory anymore.

That's how I know you're blowing smoke here dude. You seriously think economics is all soft science theory bullshit because your perception of it is skewed to believe that the most basic economics courses are just like all the courses, even the most advanced ones (by that I mean you think they are all strictly theory).

Again, if you think a comm major holds a candle to someone who can run game theory in their sleep then you're fucking daft.

Don't expect another response from me, I'm deleting my account because you've ruined the world for me with your absolute stupidity.

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[–]Akon169971 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If the choice is between abject poverty and shit wages, there is no choice. As I explained, overall profit has risen exponentially, yet labor share has fallen. This has serious consequences, and it doesn't take a genius to see it. Luckily, our labor laws are much better than in some countries (e.g. Malaysia, India, etc.), but we definitely don't want to reach that point, and should work in the opposite direction. You don't see GAP opening stores in Bangladesh, and it's for a reason. When they pay their workers 20 to 24 cents an hour, why would they sell their product there for less, when they can sell it in America for $10-$15 per shirt? The less we value labor in America (where I assume you live, though I may be wrong), the worse our situation will get. There's a reason behind our economic disparity, and it isn't high taxes, but rather an increasing divide between profit and labor share. No amount of you telling me to "fuck off," changes that, and asserting that I'm using communist rhetoric doesn't advance your argument- it's childish.

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[–]Akon169971 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cheap iPhones for me me. Fuck poor people

I'm the sociopath? Right. I can tell you haven't researched your position well. The article you linked compares working in a sweatshop to even worse forms of labor, yet still recognized how shitty sweatshops are in general. If sweatshops are so great, PM me and I'll buy you a plane ticket so you can go work in one. You won't of course, because you know as well as I do that sweatshops won't value your labor as much as your job here in America. Whether you jam a pencil in your eye or a pickaxe in your eye, you're still jamming a sharp object into your eye. Whether you work at a sweatshop for 10 hours a day for $5, or a substance farm for $3, you're still being exploited.

If you bothered to actually read my position, you would find that I am advocating for increasing the value of labor (how horrible!), which makes the article you dug up (comparing various industries with little workplace regulation and extremely low pay) look incredibly ridiculous by comparison. How hard of a concept is it for you to grasp that devaluing labor and allowing a gigantic rift between profit and labor share is a horrible model for sustainable growth, and is highly unethical? Oh right, I forgot. You said it yourself: "Cheap iPhones for me me. Fuck poor people."

You clearly have had no interest in a real conversation from the start. I'm just a commie SJW, aren't I? Your only contribution has been an article which only further highlights the issue. Unless you can provide justifications for devaluing labor, I see no reason to continue to waste my time on you.

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That's ridiculous! You can't honestly say that a woman can't fucking lift a box of fries off a truck or go take out the fucking garbage. That is a pathetic lie. I've worked with women in breakneck outdoor car washes where pausing for ten seconds to catch your breath gets you chewed out and causes congestion. I've also worked with women in grocery stores where they have no problem lifting crates of apples and bags of potatoes alongside the men. Your claim is utterly absurd and the idea that you "used leverage" against women to raise your own salary is a fucking male jerkoff fantasy. And how are you going to balance the notion that "women don't like to clean" with the stereotype that "a woman's job is to clean?" You're going to tell me that women are somehow afraid of getting dirty? When they've been raising children all through history? Have you only seen the world through sitcoms?

I'm pretty sure the average woman could knock your impotent ass out.

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As much as I like this post because it's funny and makes a good point, the wage gap disparity claim is one of the most overly perpetuated myths in today's society. It simply isn't true and doesn't exist. The claim that a woman only makes 70-77% of what a man earns in a work place to do the same job is completely false. The statistic people are "quoting" despite never knowing the source is a statistic that takes the medium income of all men in the general public and the medium income of all women in the general public. And the results show that men on average make 30% or so more than woman do. But this statistic doesn't at all account for job title, position or experience. It's like comparing a major CEO to your average nurse. Of course there's going to be a difference in pay. But no one knows this but yet everyone takes this claim as truancy. You cannot pay different wages to anyone who have the same qualifications as one another based on gender. There are literally laws against it, I.e. The Equal Pay Act. Passed in 1963 that prevents this exact thing from happening. Now whether or not woman are limited in opportunities in the work place due to discrimination is a different story, one that should be addressed and accounted for, however the perpetuation of this myth as grounds to prove an argument for feminists is one of the most frustrating things to hear. And trying to counter argue this myth as men without knowing the truth of it all is just as ignorant. Educate yourselves ladies and gentleman.

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Oh boy...I'm not denying that giving birth isn't traumatic and periods aren't a hassle, but to pretend a man's life is a cakewalk is absolutely ridiculous.

Men are:

Expected to always pay for the woman and shower her with gifts.
Considered a pussy if they show any sort of emotions.
Considered perverts if they are playful around children.
Considered undateable if they are short/balding/chubby/etc. (whereas fat women are told to be proud of their unhealthy bodies)
Supposed to be the breadwinner of the household (not always the case, but definitely still a common theme).
Expected to pay more than women to enter clubs (sounds like sexism don't you think?).
Given the absolute shaft when falsely convicted of rape. The woman in the case never receives the amount of time the male would if he were actually guilty.
Not supposed to defend themselves if assaulted by a woman (there are a staggering number of men who are domestic abuse victims but they are never mentioned)

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Women tend to choose careers that pay less but have more comfortable working conditions, more fulfilling work, more flexible hours.

Example: I work at a nuke plant, jobs that pay the most are: operations, engineering, and maintenance. These departments are almost all men. Most of the women who work at the plant work as administrators (read:secretary), or in communications or HR. Nobody is stopping women from going out and getting an engineering degree or going to trade school and becoming an electrician (the kind of qualifications that would allow the women at the plant to access those higher paying jobs), and the women you do work in those higher paying jobs make just as much as their male coworkers and do get promoted the same way, but if you looked at how much men there make versus women I'm sure you'd find a significant pay gap. Not because we pay women less, but because they choose to do jobs that pay less in exchange for not having to work a rolling 12 hout shift, work out in the 100+ degree power plant, work at heights/high voltage/other industrial hazards, or spend the time, money, and effort to get an engineering degree.

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For some people ITT: If I was a business owner and knew that I could get away with paying women 77c on the dollar to men, why wouldn't I have an all female staff....come at me

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The horse on the right has a bunch of saddles and one of them says "Different career choices." That's an advantage, not a disadvantage.

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The US department of Labor commissioned a report by Consad Research Corp and it came to the conclusion that the "study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers." The report was also quite scathing of those who parrot the women earning the 77 cents to the man's dollar for the same job stating that "despite these gains the raw wage gap continues to be used in misleading ways to advance public policy agendas without fully explaining the reasons behind the gap". In conclusion its a complicated issue however it is unlikely that the gap will ever be 0 because you simply cannot adjust for all the variables that contribute to a person's wage. https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy-issues/documents/gender%20wage%20gap%20final%20report.pdf

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It's time to move on and live in this year and not the past. Wage gap is now - AND I REPEAT, CURRENTLY AND SOME YEARS AGO IT IS USED - a myth just used to win elections and voters. There are many countries where paying a woman less is illegal. You can find many info on internet about it. Wow, even a woman says this one. She must be misogynyst and hate woman, thus herself, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=114&v=QcDrE5YvqTs

I will quickly explain it to you and then you can go on the internet and check it by yourselves if you want, otherwise you can live a lie.

These "wage gap" didn't take in account different choices women made. If a woman decides to work 5 hours and a man 10, they will compare this and they don't give a fuck about total hours.

If a woman has a baby and decides to stop working some months and live on his husband earnings, she will take this woman "no work" or "less hour works" and compare them to a man.

Let's say they earn 50x a hour. A woman decides to work less so she can attend her baby. His husband decides to work 8. 5x50= 250. 8x50= 400. She decided to do this, so where is the gap? What if it's the man who decides to work less? Is the wage gap in favour of women now? What if nobody decides to work less and they hire some caretaker? They both are now going to have less money overall as if one of them decided to work less hours. Would higher death rate in "men only" jobs justify this gap? Those are some questions you have to answer by yourselves.

You have to think about money per hour and not total money.

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a male superior providing strict orders may be "appropriate strictness" but coming from a female superior it may be "bitchy-ness".

See, I disagree with that. If my manager decides to be strict to the point of lack of respect, then yeah, I would judge that as him being a dickhead. If my manager was a woman, then I would think the same thing - I, along with most people, don't judge someone by their gender, only by their individual characteristics. It boils down to respect, really.

Regarding the wage gap, it's pretty much equality. I want to emphasize this: True equality is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. More men go into STEM than women, yet both men and women have equal opportunities to go into the area. Once you start saying "We need more women in STEM!" and give loads of support so that more women decide to work in the area, you find that it's men that become disadvantaged - women get all this encouragement and are favoured by employers, simply because they are women. Employment should be based on individual merit, not gender. Hence, women should get the same encouragement and support as men in all job areas.

Another thing is management positions. The reason behind more men getting higher paying, higher ranked jobs is down to individual performance and other factors, such as children. For example, if a man and a women, both with children and work the same job, same hours, same work, etc. had an important project to do, who is more likely to stay after work and complete the project than go home to their families? Generally speaking here, and you know that the results for men and women would be different... (likely due to differences in emotions/hormones and women being mothers). The problem with hiring more female managers and the like, yet again, gives women an unfair advantage and takes away the aspect of basing something on an individual's characteristics, not gender.

Women statistically are also more likely to work part time and work less hours than men, both contributing to the lower wages and the lower number of management positions. The 77/100 statistic doesn't take into account hours - if it was hourly pay, it would be much closer. It isn't 1:1 due to women typically choosing lower paying jobs and there being less women in management positions (as a result of the other factors I talked about).

[–]2nd470 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't say strict to the point of lack of respect. I simply said strict. Obviously without respect anyone can be a dickhead but that isn't the point. Just taking into account that recent study released about court oral arguments and factoring in seniority, gender, and some other factor I forget, you see that women are interrupted more often and typically react with more assertive language to continue proceeding with their business in proper fashion. The problem is that just because a woman has a higher position on her pay scale does not automatically mean she has the respect of her peers when, more often than not, this is simply a fact for men.

Yes, equality is equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome should only come if all factors are equal which will almost never happen. Outcomes, though, are able to show us what kind of changes we are making and give us baselines for study. However, systemic factors such as many people not choosing to provide their daughters with more creative toys such as LEGO or some other constructive toy leads girls to more likely not pursue these fields later in life, as an example. Of course employment should be based on merit.

The comment on management positions seems to be only a factor because of the current stigma that women 'run the house' when, in reality, either gender could happily say "No, I need to go visit my family instead of work extra today." I wouldn't make a comment on the hormones or anything because I doubt there would be any study that could show that certain hormone levels affect work performance. I fail to see how it is unfair to hire a woman or a man in a position with a specified number of hours, pay, and the rest of it, only to base your decision on who is "more likely to stay after work". Again, if a man had a family he could just as easily say "No, I will go home on time." rather than stay to work but women are typically seen as the people who 'do that kind of stuff'.

I'm not arguing it is 77/100. I believe the the wage gap has more or less been removed but women, in general and along with the other things I've mentioned, do not feel empowered enough to ask for raises, promotions, and other career-advancing factors due to their (relatively) recent introduction into the workforce.

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**OH FOR FUCKS SAKE!!

MALE PORN STARS GET PAID WAY LESS THAN FEMALE PORN STARS AND NO ONE SAYS SHIT ABOUT THAT!!!!

FUCKING HELL!!**

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the inside story on you young facists is a lot of you ended up in shock humour/lonely dude forums that nazi recruiters joined its not a fucking puzzle all the history is on the sites there you crossed ur nerdy hobbies with ur nerdy resentment Bunch fucking nerds with your dipshit teenage beefs probably started with a resentment of woman who won't speak to you and now you think you have become POl radicalized So how did it happen how did you become a fucking nazi? A bunch of real nazis whisper poison in your ears while becoming your only community - your only "friends" And they used multiples levels to make irony and bigotry more acceptable by drowning it in "oh were just joking" So you combine all this w/ capitalising on isolated nerd dude resentment & even deeper isolation bam nazi you can talk to any former "chan" boy & they can tell you how it went from "shitty shock humour" to "whites supremacist recruitment" The only "lol only norms care about hurting others attitude" + the general nerdy male resentment of these communities Its prime fertile ground for actual nazis to grow. People talk about pol, but you need to see the various communities converge R9k's "why won't woman fuck me" bs "anything goes & anyone who gets mad is just a normie" vs endless outbursts of anger at everything Pol here becomes less of an isolated phenomenon and more of a natural end point for all these circles crashing into one another & pol, also being its own thing menas it it rolled back into those communities amplifying your worst aspect then roll it back into pol So essentially you have an online pressure cooker to turn you typical teenage nerdy bullshit into honest to god facism

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[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

While women certainly have things to deal with, most of those things either don't have a bearing on one's wage, or have a negative effect on it. For example, menstruation sucks, and maternal leave means that one has spent less time with a company and thus a comparable colleague would have 1 year more experience than them.

In terms of what burdens men have that women don't, men are disproportionately more likely to work in more physically laborious jobs, have a higher rate of workplace injuries/fatalities, and they work more hours than women.

Compare what single childless women earn to single childless men in the same field and watch your logic crumble.

Young, single, childless women make more than their male counterparts. I'm not sure how this crumples my logic. Additionally, I'd rather this discussion be about us reaching a mutually agreed conclusion than trying to prove which of us is using bad logic.

[–]funky4lyf1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spaghetti3351 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol no. Menstruation sucks AND a lot of women are crippled by the pain and the effects of it, which often means lower productivity.

Oversimplification, I realize. My sister gets really bad cramps as well, and I'm glad her boss is a woman as well so she's really understanding.

But you know, fair enough. Menstruation does have a bearing on one's wages. I'm not sure that this is something the employer should be obligated to compensate for, but it certainly plays a role.

Maternity leaves, in several industries, lead to women being laid off.

In many if not most Western societies, this is illegal. And where it isn't, I'm with you that it should be.

Workplace sexism disenfranchises women and forces some to make other career choices or work in different companies.

I'm all for fighting against workplace sexism. That's not a direct cause of wage discrimination though, that's indirect. That doesn't make it any less important, but I would say it makes it less relevant in this particular discussion.

That is a very mild example of how sexism affects how women work and how much their work is valued.

I'm not saying that it's not, but I'm not seeing how it demonstrates the depreciated value of women's work.

Men do nothing to make policies to accommodate what women have to go through to work. Which creates a cycle where women have to live through conditions that affect them while men act like women are imagining it.

Well it doesn't helps when people bring up false arguments about gender discrimination leading to things like lowered standards for women in the Navy. This leads to people generally taking the discrimination arguments less seriously whether or not they're accurate.

That said, I do understand your position. Obviously it's not an all or nothing sort of thing; Men aren't doing nothing to accommodate women, but not being women (or having absolute power), they're not doing everything possible. I get that that's frustrating, but my main trifle is that these things always seem to get overblown to push an argument, much like the 1-in-4 rapestatistic, which is actually much closer to 1-in-40.

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To the first point, it is quantifiable - just controversial on how exactly to do so. Qualitatively, it is quite straightforward though and just because there is difficulty in quantification, does not imply that there is nothing there at all. The person who stays home to look after kids is disproportionately the mother. Even single moms are more expected to look after kids than the father. Women are assumed to be more communal and men more agentic. These are well-research facts that have implications for both men and women.

To the second point, it is not really 100% choice - it's a choice made so systematically that there must be underlying factors. If it was all completely choice and society, upbringing, etc were not in affect at all, it would be an even 50/50 split. That's the point. Women and men are influenced towards fields on the basis of their upbringing and the society they live in. You can't honestly believe that, at birth, women are just automatically less driven from math and science than men, can you?

[–]Durantye1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thing is you'll never attain a genuine usable number for how much time spent doing chores is equal to how much time doing real work. This is why it is largely pointless to use as a genuine point to support the idea that women 'work' as much as men if anything it means women are able to be at home more, which is something entirely different that needs to be fixed.

It is a choice though that's the thing, society has an expectation of women doing chores being a thing way less than the 40s, it isn't like people are going to judge you for it these days. So I definitely agree that there is an underlying tradition of women do the house work but it isn't something that affects women as a whole as any single woman can simply choose not to conform to that idea. Do I believe women are born not liking math more than men? No, but I do believe women are born and grow up no matter the environment to prefer things like caring for children and others which just results in less women going for the 'money' essentially, I don't think either gender has a large drive for math I think men are just expected to go for the money.

So yeah all these things are worth mentioning, even talking about, except that guy tried to use them too much in a way that was very irritating and largely pointless.

[–]KawKawww1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Alright, lets nip this right now. "Chores" is not encompassing of unpaid labor. You know this. It's pretty straightforward. Stop being deliberately stupid or provocative or whatever about it. A systematic disposition towards being the stay-at-home parent or taking jobs that generally pay less is not "she chose to stay home and do chores."

Secondly, no women are not born caring more for others. That's kind of shitty.

Third, you seem to misunderstand the problem being addressed. It is systemic, not individual. Your argument would be like arguing against affirmative action because a single minority may be equally able to get X job.

To the last point, you're right that men are expected to go for the money, but that's a result of socialization. We could just as well be stay-at-home dads but that's not the expectation. On top of this, the expectations are "dichotomous opposed" as all the sociologists and psychologists who study this stuff put it. If a man cannot be a caregiver and must be strong, bread-winning, etc, then a woman must be the caregiver and not strong, bread-winning, etc. Don't forget that, as men, we get fucked by the pay gap as well - whether its based in discrimination or social expectations.

EDIT: clarity of writing

[–]Durantye1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes the unpaid labor stuff is about work done at home for the most part that is literally what he goes into it about. I never said even once that we should ignore its existence or that there wasn't a wage gap at all if you would stop getting angry at nothing. I was saying the unpaid labor that he tried to use as an excuse for women working less really just doesn't hold up.

I genuinely believe that women are born with a disposition to wanting to care for other primarily kids. There are decent jobs that despite being solid jobs for the most part are completely dominated by women including nursing and teaching. Men just don't like kids as much as women, in my experiences this is true to I couldn't even list all the women I know that love kids and want the but I can count on 1 hand the amount of guys I know that think the same thing.

It is systematic but it isn't strong these days no one looks at you funny for choosing not to be the traditional woman anymore. Therefore I can't really sympathize with that specific scenario.

I also think a problem with the stay-at-home anything is that it is getting harder to maintain as expenses go up and income stays the same. But that's a whole different beast, we should as a community make certain people know of our support towards women. The idea of a pay gap problem existing for men is new to me, unless you're referring to how men are expected to work more which is a problem I suppose but in my opinion it falls under the women working less issue of it being a choice. I offer support nonetheless towards these things but at the end of the day besides the already almost universal support for women working there isn't much left to do.

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A thought experiment for anyone that believes the wage gap bs. You are a new business owner, you start a small company that lets say is a software company (programing is not a lobbor intensive job so both sexes should perform equally). You are taking out a large loan to provide initial capital and you have a certain figure you know you can spend on labor. You also know starting a business is risky since stats show about half of business fail in the first year.

So you take this limited money you have and hire 3 men instead of 4 women (if this 77% stat was true) because...

Why would any business pay someone equally capable as someone else more money?

There are a number of ligitimite social reasons women make less money overall and none of them have anything to do with sexism. When you control for these other variables, when you truly compare apples to apples women actually make more in many industries compared to their male counterparts.

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Lmao, this subreddit is fuckin' great. I pop nuts across my apartment almost every day whilst reading you guys complain about women being treated the same as men. I jerk especially hard when someone blames all their relationship problems with women on women. BTW, love that sneaky little line about not being sexist in the side bar - hopefully the Illuminati Feminists will fall for it, or else they'll be putting chemicals in OUR water that turn OUR frogs gay.

In conclusion, Sean Spicer sneaks into old folk's homes and has sex with dementia patients, but further investigation may be needed.

(_)_):::::::::::::::D~~~

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The Gender Gap is at its core about women making different choices to accommodate child bearing in their fertile lifetime.

What most people fail to acknowledge is that child-bearing should not be loaded on to the female and should be shared equally.

That would mean the kind of regulations around maternity leave and such that is in place is civilised countries aka Iceland, Sweeden, Norway etc... where they actually had to study the problem scientifically because their maternity rates were/are dropping .

Basically the Gap is rooted in the assumptions around gender roles of patriarcal societies.

Here are some relevant articles:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/07/gender-pay-gap-motherhood-everything-else-just-noise/ http://mothersinarts.com/blog/a-practical-nonviolent-act-of-resistance-part-one

[–]Ultramegasaurus10 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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It lacks empathy in my opinion, because not everyone shares your dislike for procreation.

Like procreation as much as you want, just don't expect other people to shoulder and finance your decision. As I've said, it's pure luxury with 7 billion people and counting on this planet. One could argue it's harmful even. Overpopulation and scarcity of resources are serious issues already.

And the way you see the father's role as nothing but privilege is bewildering too. Yes, he gets to keep his career, but what's so great about that? A lot of men would love to spend more time with their family. A lot of men hate their jobs. Financing a wife and child(ren) is not a privilege. Staying at home and watching your child grow up while being financially cared for is the much better part of the deal. There's a reason why women really, really dislike being the breadwinners, especially for stay at home dads, in relationships.

[–]donPiter2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I guess your point goes more to the fact that you just don't want to be taxed for things that you wouldn't yourself do or that you don't see as 100% necessary.

That's certainly one way to look at the role of government and society. It's basically saying that you think everyone should just "look out for number one/every man for themselves" and be super rich yourself while other might not be OR be a society that tries to look out for all of its members (even if not really possible 100%) where everyone is slightly poorer but no one is super poor or super rich.

I wouldn't think that way because 1) is not very decent of humane and 2) it seems very short sighted (short term gain over long term). It really is in your best interest if society as a whole advances together and doesn't leave people behind creating big inequality indexes that in time create social unrest, the corrotion of democracy and well... i think we are already seeing the consequences of that at a global scale.

Child planning and overpopulation are big issues for sure but it strikes me more like a way to justify the point about not wanting to pay for stuff you personally don't agree with without considering the full long term implications.

In any case, good luck to you and you just looking out for yourself. That way we will go very far as a species.

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This has nothing to do with prison dumbshit, since you clearly don't understand the terms I used I'll explain it as simply as possible.

The Equal Pay Act of 1963 is a labor law signed by JFK that states you can't pay people differently based on race or gender.

If someone breaks a law, you can take them to court and, should they be found to be breaking said law, they will be forced to pay very heavy fines and cease their unlawful practices. Bringing charges against someone is called litigation.

A class action lawsuit is when a bunch of people get together and unite as one force to bring litigation against a specific person or group violating a law on a large scale. They have much more power and resources as a group, and this has much more sway and publicity than just one person suing another entity.

So, if women are somehow being paid 3/4 of what a man makes on a nationwide scale due to sexism and discrimination, how come there is no litigation with regards to this seemingly glaring issue?

The secret is, they aren't! Companies would just hire all women if they could get away with paying them so much less than men. You should do some research on this topic rather than reading a BuzzFeed article and acting like you actually understand the issue.

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There should be some baggage, but not all of your examples are real in the modern workplace. Sexual harassment is definitely still a problem in some environments, but thats about it from what you've mentioned. Statistically women ask less for promotions, and they ask for them in different ways which is why they receive them less. Being accepted for employment actually favors women in male dominated fields like STEM careers (unless men are more qualified) because they are a minority in these fields.

https://hbr.org/2016/09/gender-can-be-a-bigger-factor-than-race-in-raise-negotiations

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Zz-h37LKklcC&oi=fnd&pg=PA293&dq=gender+and+negotiation&ots=jUCQRLjn3v&sig=rvXE6xgC1ObhRRaJybGlVqvJd7g

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01532/full

These might be caused by societal pressures, and those are difficult to change, even if people are aware of them.

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I've seen a number of videos and articles that claim "$.77/$1.00 for the exact same job" which is demonstrably false.

My point is; whether that claim is false or not is another story. And yes, I agree that particular claim is false. Although I've never seen a reputable source claim that number was adjusted for occupation/ time worked/ ect.

It depicts women making less because she's not doing any work.

It has no context. It is a blanket statement. How did you put it.....

The comic is attempting to demonstrate why women earn less.

I assume everyone downvoting me gets this, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten so defensive to the simple question.

Now I would say there are plenty of reputable studies that show women making less than men for the same job. The fact that someone on youtube claimed 77% less is niether here nor there.

The statement

women make less because they work less.

Does such a poor job at articulating your point as to be worthless. So worthless in fact that the simple act of asking if that is in fact your point drives you to spend paragraphs trying to "justify" it and quote the dimmest of your opponents as if they were the whole.

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[–]bigblackcuddleslut-4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why are you so obsessed with the hyper-literal interpretation of the comic? Do you sincerely believe the artist was trying to claim women do no work at all?

Yes.

This comic makes perfect since to you, and those who are like minded.

And I understood the point even when I asked the question.

I miss the content that showed stuck up entitled cunts being stuck up entitled cunts.

How do you think it comes off to a women who believes she is being paid less for doing the same job at the same hours for a man.

If this was /r/the_donald or even /r/MensRights I wouldn't even have bothered posting.

But this sub used to be pretty damn fair. A place where you could actually discuss things without people showing thier internal hate for women.

My point was that as a politcal peice of satire this is a shit comic. It ignores and marginalizes the women who may actually have a legitimate beef. It makes the entire sub look like a bunch of women hating neck beards because most others will take it literally.

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Where is anyone displaying "internal hate for women?" Everyone here has said that women should be paid the same as men for equal work if they're doing just as good of a job. If a woman works harder/better than a man at the same job, she should be paid more for it. If they do the same job and they have the same ability it should be the same. If the man is better at the job he should get paid more. The comic shows that on average men earn more than women (which is true) because of things like differences career choice, having jobs with fewer days off, etc., and not because women are paid less for doing the same job with the same success as a man. There's nothing unfair about what people are saying. Wouldn't you agree that if you have two people and one person works more/harder than the other or has a more demanding/taxing job that they should get paid more?

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The wage gap as it's being taught -- $0.77/$1.00 does not actually take into account the difference in choice and other factors:

Children and family is a big one. Women spending time away from the work force to raise families.

Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more.

Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice, this is not saying that women do not as well, statistically they are just less likely to do so).

Men work in less desirable locations.

Men work longer hours than women do.

Men are more likely to work on weekends.

Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization.

On the flip side there is a good amount of evidence where women are excelling in the workplace:

Unmarried women who don't have children actually earn more than unmarried men.

Women in the tech field tend to have higher incomes than their male counterparts.

The truth of it is, it's not based on discrimination, it's more based on personal choice.

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Another Perspective on the Wage Gap

Comments

EqualPayForEqualWork

JESSICA LYNCH DID NOTHING WRONG

500 + comments. Bound to be typos.

Title	Another Perspective on the Wage Gap
Author	somenamestaken
Upvotes	13637
Comments	3462
Date	April 12, 2017 11:59 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/6520r7/another_perspective_on_the_wage_gap/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/another-perspective-on-the-wage-gap.1071968 https://theredarchive.com/post/1071968