[–]distracted1234 [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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The husband knows he is not the biological father. This thing went to court, she couldn't hide it. In fact it is stated that he knows:

Her husband is the only father the boy has ever known and the two areextremely close. The husband took on a role that many men would not haveand has been an “outstanding role model” to the boy;

Also note that the only reason the request could be denied was because the husband was already recognized as the legal father.

With that said, that was in the English speaking part of Canada but if you read French you can check the law for Quebec:https://educaloi.qc.ca/capsules/contester-ou-reclamer-le-statut-de-parent/

The husband of the mother is presumed to be the father. Paternity can in theory be contested by another man (or the husband himself) but only within 12 months. Also note that just because you contest it doesn't necessarily mean the court will grant it as the "best interest" of the child prevails (as in the example above). If the filiation is successfully contested the biological father may then 'apply' to have the "correct" filiation established.De facto, if the mother's husband is not in it, you have no chance of establishing the correct filiation. This was in fact a hard rule before the reform of 1980.

You may also check the following pdf that reviews the Jurisprudence in family law matters:https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/notariat/2018-v120-n1-notariat04472/1058337ar.pdf

[–]Kylie_Fan2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Reddit_User_543mil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And even if though the mother births the children, that doesn’t make her THE mother of those children. The biological mother, yes, but not the mother per society.

My stepmother did not raise most off her children. The father of her first child raised their daughter because she couldn’t afford to provide for her, and he adopted HER second daughter because the father was a meth addicted fling and he pitied her (the second daughter was conceived during my stepmother’s divorce with him). Her second son (the first son and third child died shortly after being born) lived with her for 14 years and when given the choice moved in with his biological father. Her second daughter was born addicted to meth and started using in high school; she died this year in her early 30’s, and produced three children that she lost custody of already.

As far as I’m concerned, my stepmother has never been a mother. She birthed children that she never truly mothered.

[–]distracted12342 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]EnidAsuranTroll3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]distracted12342 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Which point? we are having two simultaneous conversations on different threads.

Think about it like this. Two people have sex and a child is created. That child will die without being cared for. If the father leaves and the child dies of neglect he is responsible for that death.

Men take women for granted and expect them to take care of their children, giving them the freedom to leave, remove their finances and, if they do enough mental gymnastics to convince themselves they are not responsible for their child they can actually feel resentment toward her.

Children require two parents. And you abandoning them is a form of trauma you are responsible for inflicting.

Motherhood can also be imposed as we very well know. She is still the mother.

EDIT: Adoption also causes trauma you can ask any adoptee or look up their testimonies. Generally its better to be adopted then born into an unprepared, abusive, or financially unstable household.

[–]EnidAsuranTroll2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]EnidAsuranTroll1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Just because two people created a child doesn't necessarily mean it's "theirs". Some people indeed argue that children belong to society as a whole and that they should be taken care of and parented by the state. This would reduce inequalities (and racism) and lead to a fairer society while also abolishing parenthood altogether.

In all the examples I have given, there are always people responsible for the kid. No society that I know of believes/believed it fine to leave babies to die. The question has always been who is responsible for the child, what process are used to establish/recognised the responsible people. What right and duty do these poeple have? What happens when people break the rules? On my part, I don't think fatherhood is fair in its current set up. Either reinforce father rights (genetics above "interest of the child" and father, mandatory DNA testing) make it more flexible (paper abortion) or just abolish it.

Regarding your original comment, I stand by my point. Just because a kid as some of your DNA dosn't necessarily make it yours. Conception of fatherhood both legal and social evolve. And arguing against change "because that's how things are here and now" won't change minds. Time to sleep now.

[–]distracted12342 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A woman doesn't get to shirk her role as a mother as easily as a father does once the child is born. That is inherently and biologically not fair either and it cant be made up for. In our current set up men are responsible for their offspring and there ought to be consequences for them shirking it. I don't believe in the legitimacy of paper abortions in negating fatherhood in our society, it just legally absolves you of compulsion to pay child support. nothing more. You can tell yourself differently if you want and go through all sorts of cultural and anthropological reasonings why thats okay but truth is thats still your kid. You have not changed my mind

You have only convinced me that many fathers dont see their role as something that they become after their child is born but a favor they do for women. Women on the other hand have their bodies, minds, hormonal makeup, and identities completely altered. If she chooses to abandon her child she will still never be the same. That is why motherhood is our choice to make.

Good night though

[–]EnidAsuranTroll2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You have only convinced me that many fathers dont see their role as
something that they become after their child is born but a favor they do
for women

Ironically, it seems to me that this is how women first -and society as a whole then- view fatherhood. A woman can hide a child from their father and vice-versa with zero legal consequences.

Wrongful paternity can be intentionally established at the detriment of the genetic father, the child and possibly the now legal father. Yet, paternity fraud is not considered a legal offence.

Meanwhile, unwilling fathers will be tracked down by the sate even if the child is the result of a rape perpetrated by the mother! Of course, this happens if and only if the woman wants it.

Clearly, there is no belief in fatherhood as a set of inalienable rights and duties established at conception (which is why "presumption of paternity" exist for married couple), rather fatherhood is conceived as a service men give to women and society when it is convenient for them.

You didn't change my mind either, but thanks for engaging.

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Education in the south is so bad, that when I was a senior in high school (2012), I met high schoolers in Texas that didn’t know Indiana was a state (where I’m from).

When I told them where I’m from, they asked me why I’m not Indian. It took a lot for me to realize they weren’t being snarky; they literally were confused that I’m not South Asian (this is one of the few times I have met people that meant “Indian” as in “India”; my home state is socially backwards enough that many still prefer to say “Indian” in reference to “Native American”).

The maternal side of my family is from Texas and Mississippi. I will visit those relatives, but my time in the Deep South and after dating someone from the Deep South, I will never raise my future children anywhere near there. Or my home state, either. I’m going I carefully research education quality before I move to a state.

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"Men support financial abortion and women don't" is not even close to being true

It was a woman who originally proposed the idea of "male abortion", and its major proponents since then have been feminists and women steeped in feminist theory:

The legal argument for "male abortion" and the theory itself can be attributed to the female attorney Melanie McCulley
"Paper abortion" entered public debate when female professor and feminist Frances Goldscheider wrote this
Laurie Shrage, professor of philosophy and women's studies, has advanced the argument for financial abortion by using feminist ideas about consent to sex and consent to parenthood
Elizabeth Brake, professor of philosophy, wrote another seminal text on male abortion

"Haha feminists finally know how it feels"—motherfucker feminists are the only ones who know what "paper abortion" means, never mind like the idea.

There is virtually no public support for financial abortion. No politicians run on it. There is no movement for it, not even among men. And there won't be. Conservatives like responsibility and consequences, and Democrats like policies that give money to children.

The only evidence I can find of "paper abortion" being a political platform anywhere is in fucking Sweden, and, uh, that political party also supports necrophilia and incest.

Now that I have dropped Facts and Logic I would like everyone to stop talking about paper abortions—preferably at all, but especially as something feminists are opposed to or something that men broadly support.

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She has the power to terminate any pregnancy

It her body, why shouldn't she?

or give up the kid for adoption.

Wrong, unless the father is absent, she needs the fathers permission to give the child up for adoption.

and only the man has to pay for it!

Only the man? How do you figure that? ... aside from the fact that she paid with her body, women are financially responsible for their children as well.

That is unfair and that is why men are angry.

Men and women are treated equally under the law.

Men and women have equal rights to halt pregnancies occuring in their own body for whatever reasons they choose.

Once a child is born, men and women have equal responsibility to the welfare of the child. This is to ensure the welfare of the child and reduce strain on society as a whole.

While there is inequality due to biological reasons, it is not hypocritical to allow people to have rights over their bodies while also requiring any parents have a hand in their offsprings welfare.

Both parents pay for the child. Abortion is ending pregnancy, which only affects one party.

You are trying to draw an equivalence between two fundamentally different things.

Do you think that women should also be allowed "paper abortion"?

If one parent can choose to dump the kid on the other and leave them all the responsibility of making sure it's taken care of, why should that be only one way?

If you don't support that, then I'd call that hypocritical.

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You’re stuck on the rights of the two people fucking. You’re exact words were “why should a man ever have to support his kids?”

I sympathize with a man who really didn’t want a kid or was not in a position to afford one and suddenly funds himself a dad, especially if it’s with a woman he doesn’t want to be with. But your words seem to suggest that men should never have the responsibility of caring for children they fathered because, in your words, fathers don’t have value. We should just be like animals and men should fuck and run?

I never said men should have no say. If you do point out where you think I did.

I’m saying there seems to be a whole dimension in this you’re missing, which is that beyond the rights of the two people who had sex and “equality” is a human life that needs caring, support, and guidance. And I can’t get on board with the idea that men contribute no value to that.

[–]EsotericRoadCase1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My exact words were not that, they were “Why should a man have to?“ and didn’t say ever. In fact I made a clear distinction that this is unmarried couples or flings or whatever for that very reason. And then I said why are men still expected to be the financial support for women despite women being capable of making their own money in current year. Then you proceeded to question the morality of unwilling fathers, yet you have no issue with unwilling mothers getting an abortion. Unwilling being your moral qualm.

You find it wrong for a man to be an unwilling father, but an unwilling mother is fine?

Like I said, this isn’t about something being right and wrong for me, but the inherent unequal treatment under the law in that situation.

A man paying child support doesn’t even guarantee he’s involved in the kids life, as preference is always given to the mother.

And like I asked, if you think fathers are so important to raising a child, then why are they then excluded from the topic of pregnancy?

Let’s say a man wants to keep his child but she wants to abort it, he can’t do a thing about it, and the inverse is the same.

[–]poppy_blu1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn’t question the morality of unwilling fathers. I didn’t say it’s wrong for a man to not want to be a father when it wasn’t something he planned (I mean dude my comment is still in the thread for fucks sake)

I asked you why you said fathers have no value and why should a man ever have to support a child — it should be on women. And once again, then we become animals where males are just sperm donors.

I’d suggest you get off line and talk to some people who have actually been adults in LTRs and have been parents. You’re painting the world as a place where no man actually wants an child and only sticks around because the law makes him. That’s not reality, not is it reality that men are “excluded from the topic of pregnancy.”

Anyone can take worst case scenarios and extremes and mix it with their own “women bad”bias and pretend it applies to all men.

[–]EsotericRoadCase1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Hungry-Adagio21520 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Amen. Thank you.

Also: even when abortion was broadly available in every state, this problem still clearly existed. If, say, a woman wanted an abortion but the guy wanted the child, the guy was SOL and had no rights in the situation. If the woman wanted the child and the guy didn’t, then the woman could have the child and then use the state apparatus to compel the dude to pay for it. Either way, women have somehow achieved full dominance of the whole “reproductive rights” situation, and frankly that’s not fair and not right.

(And before y’all shit all over me for saying this, calling me an “incel” and the like - I have been married twice. I currently pay over $60k in child support annually to my ex wife, who cheated on me extensively during the marriage. One of the children almost certainly is not mine-the blood types don’t match, and my ex has even openly identified whom she believes is the real father. She has also allowed me no access to either child for more than 3 years despite a parenting agreement that allows me actual access. Have I been able to get the family courts of the state in question to paternity test the children and/or force my ex to give me access to either of them (which I am legally entitled to)? No, despite blowing more money than I care to admit on attorneys who promised they could accomplish these things. (Family court in many states is FUBAR, extremely unfair and also heavily biased in favor of women.) So now I pay $4k a month to an abusive, spiteful cheater whom I also have a restraining order and warrants out for her arrest in another state for her continued electronic harassment of myself and my new wife, which has included calling our employers and trying to fuck over our careers by telling lies to them - for two kids that may or may not even be mine, to the extent that this ex has taunted me over one of the girls’ real father. So yeah, I have a major bone to pick with how family court currently works in the US, and I have the personal experiences, the scars and the associated massive financial cost to back up why I feel this way.)

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Yeah, so? You asked me and I affirmed it. My remark was not at you specifically but at all women who have been preaching to me since the cradle that men aint't shit and that "we don't need no men" and "Future is female" and all that other shit. After hearing it my whole life I suppose I started to actually believe it. Not in some depressive incel-ish emotional way but just as a matter of fact.

I genuinely believe that I am not needed in any woman's life and I have no real business being around my own kids whenever I have them. I'm just there to give a part of my paycheck to the mom and to teach my sons some lessons when they grow up on how to survive at life. That's it! You do not even need a man to do that shit cause she can always get money from the government and the kids get educated in the school system. There is literally no reason for me as a male to even be there. All they want is a paycheck and a free nanny so mom can have weekends off or some shit.

By the way, I only just found out yesterday that father's day was last week! lol like WTF! I didn't even see any commercials or nothing. My dad didn't even know either until my sisters went and bought him a bunch of stuff. He texted me to call me a bastard (jokingly) cause he also forgot.

[–]poppy_blu3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Or maybe men are smart enough to realize that if the bio dad isn't supporting the kid, there's a fair chance the rest of society is on the hook in the form of welfare programs of one kind or another, and if there's anything men detest more than supporting their own children, it's supporting strangers' children.

I mean I do know that there are some men that think this. But I don't think these men are pro-abortion either.

I try to talk about and spread the message of paper abortions to remind men who may be okay with women having legal abortions that few people care about men having a similar choice, and are even hostile to the idea.

But regarding your point, poor single mothers are always going to get some government assistance anyway. If mothers needed consent from their child's father to get support from him, it seems likely to me that less women would end up as single mothers in the first place, resulting in less mothers relyingon welfare.

[–]poppy_blu4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Blame_the_Muse{<my pussy tastes like pepsi cola>} [score hidden] 4 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

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[–]banjocatto5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]just_a_place3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's women's fault men have to pay for their children?

No.

Women have the right not to be coerced into being mothers against their will. Men do not have this right. We want the same thing.

Men should not be forced into being fathers against their will. This includes forcing men to pay for children that they do not want. When women get pregnant it is entirely her choice on whether or not she has a baby; and men have zero right to even say anything about it. Therefore it is only fair and just that men should have zero accountability over a matter in which we have zero rights.

Taking away women's rights does nothing to help men and boys.

No, but if women want to reinstate those rights they have to add men's rights alongside it. Once a bill includes BOTH men and women then men will fully back you. Until then, the answer is no.

[–]poppy_blu3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]just_a_place1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The line is in that first month when he finds out that the woman he banged got knocked up.

When a woman tells a guy she is pregnant he should have a choice rather than just be told to shut the fuck up while the woman decides his fate.

His choices should be:

Be a father, in which case he gets all the usual rights, privileges, and responsibilities for his kids. The mother should have no right to estrange him from his kids if he is willing to be a father. This whole "visitation rights" bullshit is just pure fucking evil. Fatherhood is a 24/7 commitment not some shit that the state only allows him to do every odd fucking weekend.
Not be a father. In this case he gives up all his rights and privileges as a father and he is not to be held liable, responsible, or accountable for anything that the mother decides to do from this point on and he completely forfeits all future claims to his kids so that he can't change his mind 10-20 years latter when the kids are grown up.

Honestly most men already know what their choice is going to be. Most men are already decided on whether or not they want to be a father.

[–]poppy_blu2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]CatchPhraze2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women have the right not to be coerced into being mothers against their will. Men do not have this right. We want the same thing.

 Almost one in five young women ages 18 - 24 have

experienced forced sexual intercourse.3

 On average, almost 500 women (483) are raped or

sexually assaulted each day in this country.4

 53% women aged 16-29 in family planning clinics

reported physical or sexual violence from an

intimate partner. 5

 Approximately one in five young women said they

experienced pregnancy coercion and one in seven

said they experienced active interference with

contraception (also called birth control sabotage).

 Girls who are victims of dating violence are 4 to 6 times more likely than

non-abused girls to become pregnant. 7,8

 As many as two-thirds of adolescents who become pregnant were

sexually or physically abused some time in their lives.9

 Some 25 to 50 percent of adolescent mothers experience partner violence

before, during, or just after their pregnancy.10

 Forty percent of pregnant women who have been exposed to abuse report

that their pregnancy was unintended, compared to just eight percent of

non-abused women.1

https://www.futureswithoutviolence.org/userfiles/file/Children_and_Families/Reproductive.pdf

Oh yeah, reproductive coercion is common, its just not common in the direction you think it is.

[–]just_a_place1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]banjocatto-1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When women get pregnant it is entirely her choice on whether or not she has a baby; and men have zero right to even say anything about it.

So, I think you are viewing the right to an abortion as the right to be childless.

What are your thoughts on the idea that abortion is the right to not be pregnant and to not give birth?

It seems intuitive that abortion is about the right to not be pregnant and to not give birth. If the sole reason women got abortions was because they didn't want children, no abortions would occur, because adoption exists.

Therefore it is only fair and just that men should have zero accountability over a matter in which we have zero rights.

Do you think that women should also be allowed "paper abortion"?

If one parent can choose to dump the kid on the other and leave them all the responsibility of making sure it's taken care of, why should that be only one way?

If you don't support that, then I'd call that hypocritical.

No, but if women want to reinstate those rights they have to add men's rights alongside it.

What would that look like though?

Men and women are treated equally under the law.

Men and women have equal rights to halt pregnancies occuring in their own body for whatever reasons they choose.

Once a child is born, men and women have equal responsibility to the welfare of the child. This is to ensure the welfare of the child and reduce strain on society as a whole.

While there is inequality due to biological reasons, it is not hypocritical to allow people to have rights over their bodies while also requiring any parents have a hand in their offsprings welfare.

Both parents pay for the child. Abortion is ending pregnancy, which only affects one party.

You are trying to draw an equivalence between two fundamentally different things.

Also, are there other situations in which you advocate taking away the rights of others to correct (what you deem to be) an injustice?

[–]just_a_place3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you think that women should also be allowed "paper abortion"?

Yes.

For example: If a father really wants a baby but the mother doesn't want to after she gave birth she can sign a paper and give up all her rights and responsibilities to that child and the dad can take over. Fair is fair.

Men and women are treated equally under the law.

LMAO 🤣 that's a good one. And cops don't racially profile anyone. 😉 I needed a good laugh.

Men and women have equal rights to halt pregnancies occuring in their own body for whatever reasons they choose.

Dudes do not get pregnant. You're specifically talking about women and only women here.

Once a child is born, men and women have equal responsibility to the welfare of the child.

Sidelining the father while still forcing him to pay his wages to the mother (under threat of imprisonment) is not what I call equal responsibility. Tell me, why should it be the father's responsibility if he did not agree to it? Women didn't have to agree to it, so why are men being forced into it?

You are trying to draw an equivalence between two fundamentally different things.

No.

Nobody can force a woman to be a mother against her will.

Nobody should be able to force a man to be a father against his will.

This isn't complicated.

[–]banjocatto2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If a father really wants a baby but the mother doesn't want to after she gave birth she can sign a paper and give up all her rights and responsibilities to that child and the dad can take over. Fair is fair.

If he assumes custody, she has to pay child support if he requires or requests it. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Sidelining the father while still forcing him to pay his wages to the mother

When did I say men should be sidelined? Oh, that's right. I didn't.

Men can sue for custody, most if them just don't.

Tell me, why should it be the father's responsibility if he did not agree to it?

You realize that the majority of child support cases are between ex-spouses/partners, right? As in men who've already agreed to take on a role in the child's life, and then try to bail.

That being said, reproduction is inherently an unequal system, and there is no way to make it truly fair.

• With an abortion, the child doesn't exist. With a paper abortion, the child does exist. For abortion, we only have to consider what is most fair between the man and the woman. With paper abortions, we have to consider what is most fair between the woman, the man, and the child. Paper abortions are not the same as abortions for this simple reason, and it is disingenuous to argue that it is.

• Abortion is also an invasive, often surgical procedure. Allowing for paper abortions would allow men an easy way out, whereas women have to undergo invasive surgery as a way out. These are not the same -- allowing men the choice of a paper abortion would be giving them better choices then women currently have. As again, women are not allowed to abandon their children either, and men are also allowed to surrender their children under safe haven laws.

• There are women can't have abortions for medical reasons or because they discovered it too late. Once the child is there, they don't have the right to be childless without the man's consent. Again, if the man wants the child and she doesn't, if he takes sole custody, she will be paying child support.

Dudes do not get pregnant. You're specifically talking about women and only women here.

Exactly...

I understand why all of this seems unfair to you, but I would ask you to consider the other side of the unfairness. If you decide to have a kid at some point, you will never have to be pregnant.

You won't have to wake up every morning throwing up.

You won't have to undergo labor -- which is one of the most painful thing a human body can experience.

Imagine if you had to shit out a cantaloupe in order to have a kid! You will never risk gestational diabetes or preeclampsia or the myriad conditions associated with pregnancy and childbirth.

Men get to have kids without going through pregnancy and women don't. I don't know how relevant this is to the specific debate, but you seem to have a view that reproduction is inherently unfair for only the man. I would suggest, that under the current status quo, men still have the better option out of the two shitty options.

[–]just_a_place1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]banjocatto2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Child support should just be abolished altogether.

People (men and women) should not have to financially support their children? All that would do is either hurt the child, or place the financial burden onto tax payers.

if and when it is the woman who broke the contract.

Are you referring to the contract of marriage?

What is my business is when women get to decide major life altering events without my consent, such as forcing me to pay child support.

You still seem to be ignoring the fact though that women are not exempt from child support either.

We currently have a system in which men and women both have control of their own bodies, and are made to pay child support to the custodial parent (should they request or require it).

Yet, what you're advocating for is a system in which men can have sex with women, cum inside of them, and then just shake their head and escape responsibility.

Meanwhile, women must either:

a) undergo an invasive and often difficult medical procedure to do the same (assuming she's able to)

b) assume all financial responsibility for the child

or c) give the child up for adoption after enduring 9 months of pregnancy and then childbirth.

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[–]toughestanswers1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Close?

They already overturned Roe 🤣

Enjoy

Keep it in your pants asshole

Now available in pink

How's it taste?

Suck it

[–]Mrs_Drgree1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]edgyny𝒥𝑒𝓇𝓀-𝑜𝒻𝒻 𝑜𝒻 𝓂𝒶𝓃𝓎 𝓉𝓇𝒶𝒹𝑒𝓈 [score hidden] 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I think the biggest problem is there's no easy way to implement it. And what I mean by that is there's no safe fallback to keep people who don't know about it from getting screwed over.

In general what you want is something where the father records commitment to the child so that it can be enforced later. Otherwise you have people noting out later after the baby is born. But there's not really any way for people who do the traditional thing of not really caring about going to courts and signing papers to not get fucked over by that. Anyway that's the biggest hurdle I see.

I haven't see a workable way to solve that and abusing the system is the biggest problem. But in general I agree. On the other hand that sort of stuff is solvable after the fact whereas pregnancy is not. If there's a mechanism to end child support that could be exercised after the child is born. Or the laws can be changed. But you can't retractively change an abortion decision.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There is an easy way to implement it..

Put a statutory time limit on paper abortion, similar to abortion. (Preferably 2-4 weeks less so that the mother gets time to undergo abortion in case she doesn't want to continue as single mother).

Once signed, paper abortion is irreversible and irrevocable. The man gets no legal rights as father, even if he reappears later in child's life.

He also has no say in subsequent adoption or care of the kid.

Once the statutory time limit is over, he cannot financially abort the kid. And will be hooked for CS. (This can be relaxed only in exceptional circumstances like F on M rape).

Considering the legal limit for medical abortion is ~20-28 weeks. It would be 16-24 weeks in most states.

It does leave a loophole where the mother may deliberately hide the pregnancy from the putative father till the statutory time limit is over.

But it will be an exception rather than the rule.
Most guys in relationship find out about their spouse's pregnancy very early.
This can only happen in ONS type scenario. There are plenty of men who escape CS in such scenario too. So, its still fair in my opinion.

[–]edgyny2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Frosty-Gate-80941 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Giving the option to financial abortion 'after the child is born' is ridiculous.

It can only be allowed while the legal status of the child is still 'fetus'. That is before viability..

The onus is on the putative father to approach the appropriate authorities to get the paperwork done.

As I said in another comment. There will be plenty of NGOs, non-profit organizations, and charities that will quickly cash-in. (Consider the male equivalent of planned parenthood).

Within a few decades, it will also become socially acceptable to 'financially abort' your child too.

It took almost half-a-century for medical abortions to become safe, easily available, and socially acceptable.

Financial abortions will follow a similar trajectory. Only thing we need is a law change. The male-equivalent of Roe vs Wade.

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[–]toughestanswers [score hidden] 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Frosty-Gate-80941 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is no law that says men cant get pregnant. Some transgender people do get pregnant, before or after transition, to have a baby...

So, yes, men can and do get pregnant.. There is no law prohibiting it.

Child support is also a part of the law. Without this law, there is no obligation for a man to pay any maintainance to his child. The man can choose to run-away.

So, if the law can be written once, it can be modified too.
Same as abortions.

Abortions were universally banned before they became safe enough (medically speaking).
Before modern methods, abortions were performed throughout history. Its even mentioned in Egyptian hieroglyphs.
But they weren't legal.

Feminists got the law changed. With men's help, mind you.
But when men asked help for changing laws, feminists backtracked. And started shaming and blaming men.

Now they need men's help to change laws again, they are trying the shaming methods again.
It doesn't work all the time. People get smarter.

This way or another, there will be legal equality. Its just the question of which way you want it.

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Its irresponsible to have sex without doing it safetly if you’re willing to risk the fact that you might get pregnant you should own up to your actions and raise the child not go eh its ok I’ll just get an abortion. We learn at a very young age that sexual intercourse leads to pregnancy if you’re having sex without a contraceptive it shouldnt be a surprise that you got pregnant you were fully aware of the risk you just dont wanna deal with the consequences. The man is just as responsible as the woman in this situation if the man was unwilling to help he would be forced to pay child support by a court of law. There are programs that help out low income households and there are even financial incentives for having a child but yet again the only ones to blame if the child did have a shitty life would be their irresponsible parents that had unprotected sex knowing they couldnt afford a child

[–]poppy_blu1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]poppy_blu1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

K. PPD never changes.

Please learn how to interpret what data actually means. IE, all women aren’t mothers, but all mothers are women. The latter DOES NOT infer the former.

This is NOT saying birth control is NOT effective.

It is NOT saying that 50% of women using birth control end up pregnant and have abortions.

It’s saying that of those women for whom birth control DOES fail, a significant number will have abortions.

It’s saying that if the percentage of pregnancies where women chose to abort, half were using birth control.

I mean yeah it’s easy to just respond to any data that challenges your opinions with “they’re lying.”

But let’s put it this way. If the percent of people severely injured despite wearing seatbelts was only 2%, and you were one of those 2%, you’d probably not be to pleased to be turned away at the hospital because your circumstance isn’t statistically significant and that makes you a bad person who must be lying about wearing your seat belt and you don’t deserve critical care.

So let’s call it what it is. The insistence that abortion equals bad irresponsible women 100% of the time is just a slightly more progressive way to spin the fact that you don’t like abortion because you don’t think women have the right to do it. Eg I’m not one of the judgy Bible beaters it’s cuz women who have abortions are bad and irresponsible, that’s why I oppose it.

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[–]DependentFennel31821 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think you need to reread my original comment as a matter a fact our whole convo. I dont disagree with people getting an abortion. You’re getting so emotionally invested and being arrogant over something that I dont disagree with you’re arguing what about the 2% of the time it doesnt work and insinuating I’m grasping at straws? If birth control fails I dont disagree with that decision because they were being responsible using it we can compare numbers all day whatever. My point is birth control is highly effective this is obvious and you agreed with this.

You’re original statement was: 1.)All abortions are not irresponsible. Well yeah no shit 2.)You see it as a punishment to the child unwilling father and society as a whole. I dont agree with that because taking responsibility for your actions isnt wrongful punishment and it isnt meant for anyone but the people that did the deed. Based on the fact that you mentioned its a burden on everyone else but the mother I’m guessing we’re gonna go into a loop again and I’ll have to repeat myself so I’m not really interested in this conversation anymore. Have a good day/night

[–]AnActualPersonGirthy [score hidden] 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]pearllovespink [score hidden] 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It’s the opposite of selfish. What about the child that will grow up in crime ridden neighborhoods? Children that will wonder what they will eat for dinner at night. Children that will come home from school and find the little bit of clothing they have scattered on the sidewalk outside of their apartment. Children that will jump household to household because they have no real home.

These women are selfless for sacrificing fear, shame, pain, and regret so their unborn child won’t live a hard life.

Most Americans are speaking from a place of privilege. If you have ever visited a low income school or neighborhood all you would think is these children should’ve never been brought into the world with parents who aren’t ready to be parents. How selfish of them for choosing such a difficult and traumatizing life for their children to live.

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Because some people don't want the responsibility of a child.

They do not want to give 18 years of their life to a child, they'd rather be free to 'selfishly' do what they want to do with their time. Every single child free person doesn't have this exact motivation, but enough of them do that this is the driving force to keep them from having kids. They don't want the exhaustion and commitment.

I don't know how many times I have to say this to you, being selfish about one's own life and time is not the crime against humanity you are making it out to be. But to say abortion is only for those who are being completely selfless about the financial welfare of their child is dismissing the reality that women have abortions because they don't want a child, despite financially being able to care for it.

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[–]bobby-mcshabi2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I also think multiple states are trying to make it harder to get birth control too because of Justice Clarence Thomas saying this

He took aim at three other landmark cases that relied on that same legal reasoning: Griswold v. Connecticut, a 1965 decision that declared married couples had a right to contraception;

Lawrence v. Texas, a 2003 case invalidating sodomy laws and making same-sex sexual activity legal across the country;

and Obergefell v. Hodges, the 2015 case establishing the right of gay couples to marry.

Justice Thomas wrote that the court “should reconsider” all three decisions, saying it had a duty to “correct the error” established in those precedents. Then, he said, after “overruling these demonstrably erroneous decisions, the question would remain whether other constitutional provisions” protected the rights they established.

What a horrible person

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[–]y2kjanelle17 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men who see their children equally to the women don’t pay child support.

Men who don’t want to be actual fathers or can’t afford to be involved fathers pay child support. And of course, women pay child support too.

Men also have refused to finish a single trial for a male birth control pill despite women tolerating them and finishing them for decades.

80% of men relied on women being on contraceptives the last time they had sex.

96% of women who are in their childbearing years have been on at the very least one course/form of birth control.

27% of children who do go through a custody case never even see their fathers again.

So ask yourself, if men don’t even care enough about each other and their own lives to finish a single trial of birth control, why is it they are focusing on child support or even financial abortions?

[–]mike-sonko6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]y2kjanelle6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Did I say it was the law? No.

The law isn’t that all 50/50 custody orders have no child support. And I never said that. So you are right, yes, child support can be ordered for 50/50 arrangements.

But generally, in most cases, 50/50 custody very well don’t have any child support orders.

So the court looks at 2 main things: income and custody. This is so the child has the same or similar standard of living as when their parents were together.

Here’s one instance where child support may be ordered in a 50/50 case:

Mom and dad divorce. They both split custody evenly with their schedule. Mom, however, makes significantly less than dad. She takes a huge loss of household income because she is no longer depending on the father/her husband.

This means she’s going to have a significantly harder time finding housing, affording food, school supplies, health insurance, etc.

So the court has to order child support so that when the child goes to live with mom, they aren’t seriously struggling or living in poverty.

However, the mom will have to provide all expenses and what she would need the support for. It’s not automatic by any means. And since the father has custody, the amount is going to be significantly less because half of the time the child will be with him.

So these child support orders are going to be very little to none if custody is split. Unless the higher earning partner is significantly richer. If it’s between a millionaire and a stay at home mom with no income or job, child support may be high so the child isn’t living half in poverty and half very comfortable.

The thing is, especially nowadays, a household mostly requires two incomes. In most relationships, both partners are working. So generally, you’re not going to see 50/50 custody with a significant child support order for the higher earning partner. That’s just not as common.

ALSO, this is important for higher earning partners, which tend to be men. If mom was a stay at home or was making very little, she’s going to need to make a change, right? She now has more expenses and the cost of living is higher.

So when you are aware that mom is now making similar wages or has a job, you can request a court date to change child support because she can afford the expenses.

So it’s also very possible that a 50/50 custody order with child support can turn into one without a child support order. When the other partner is back on their feet, making more money and can support the child, you don’t have to just keep paying the support order.

You request it be changed or possibly ended because the standard of living is even.

My main source is that I had a job where I wrote up the orders. I also had to review divorces cases and their income/expense declarations as well as child support orders :) I’ve also had conversations with judges during my time with the courts who said the same thing. Generally, 50/50 custody orders don’t really have child support orders unless there are specific needs for the child to keep the same standard of living.

Hope that cleared things up for you.

[–]mike-sonko6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]y2kjanelle7 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

90% of custody cases are agreed upon by both mom and dad. Within that, only 11% use a mediator. Only 4% go to court.

So let’s start there before we start going with the whole “courts default to women”.

Women are twice as likely to lose custody when they claim abuse is happening. Even when the abuse is proved by the courts. Men who claim there’s any kind of parental alienation have a higher chance of winning custody.

27% of children have fathers that never make an effort to see them again after a custody case.

But somehow, it’s of course still women’s fault, isn’t it? We are all just evil bitches who want to make men miserable. /s

Despite women doing 70% of domestic work and child rearing.

I apologize for the confusion. But please look into why women get custody. It’s not only wrong but it’s harvesting hatred in men that’s not based on reality.

I’m glad you have figured out your preferences.

[–]mike-sonko5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

90% of custody cases are agreed upon by both mom and dad. Within that, only 11% use a mediator. Only 4% go to court.

So let’s start there before we start going with the whole “courts default to women”.

How many of those 90% are 50/50? How many of those are as a result of lawyers who are familiar with how a court would rule advising their clients to just accept the deal? In jurisdictions like GA, PA good luck trying to get 50/50 without a fight. Most folks can't afford the fees and choose to settle out of court.

Women are twice as likely to lose custody when they claim abuse is happening. Even when the abuse is proved by the courts.

I'm not following what you're saying here. Are you saying women who claim they have been abused are likely to lose custody? I couldn't find any sources backing up any of these claims you're making here.

Men who claim there’s any kind of parental alienation have a higher chance of winning custody.

Source?

I’m glad you have figured out your preferences.

Me too, and fortunately it happened before having children/getting married.

[–][deleted]2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]y2kjanelle4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Deadlocked024 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men who see their children equally to the women don’t pay child support

Nah. 50/50 custody isn’t mutually exclusive with child support.

And of course, women pay child support too.

Not only there are fewer women paying child support, but those who are ordered to pay are even less likely to do so than men.

https://dadsdivorce.com/articles/dads-represent-85-of-child-support-providers-pay-more-than-female-payers/

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/01/389945311/who-fails-to-pay-child-support-moms-at-a-higher-rate-than-dads

Men also have refused to finish a single trial for a male birth control pill despite women tolerating them and finishing them for decades.

That’s bullshit. About the study you’re probably referring to, the one that popularized the notion that “men can’t handle birth control”:

The study was halted because of safety concerns raised by an independent safety-review board, not because men couldn’t handle the side effects. Additionally, one of the study participants committed suicide and another was unable to regain sperm function. “Women drop out of birth control and IUD studies all the time. I was just reading a study where of 175 women who enrolled, 20 dropped out by three months. That’s what happens; that’s why you overenroll for studies,” Dr. Jen Gunter, an ob-gyn who wasn’t involved in the study, told the Cut.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210220084031/https://www.thecut.com/2016/11/the-real-reason-the-male-birth-control-study-was-halted.html

80% of men relied on women being on contraceptives the last time they had sex.

96% of women who are in their childbearing years have been on at the very least one course/form of birth control.

I mean, there are way more birth control methods available to women, so that’s to be expected. How is that a bad thing for women, having choices? Believe me, that’s what most men want too.

[–]The-Devilz-Advocate4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]y2kjanelle3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

80% of men relied on their female partner for contraceptive-use the last time they had sex.

It is 2022, I would imagine that if we can send a man to the moon back in the 1969, and have several approved female contraceptives, that if men really wanted male birth control, it would exist.

But it's a lot easier to rely on women. 96% of women who are sexually active have been on some form of birth control as well. They're putting in the effort.

So it's way too convenient to say "Well men are advocating for it significantly and it just hasn't happened"

Even on PPD you don't see men even talking about it. Most men even admit hating condoms or not wanting/refusing to wear them.

If men wanted to have more control over pregnancy, if they wanted birth control, I have no doubts that it would have been created already.

[–]Puzzled_Carob_27423 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not that easy. Most men are dying to have a reliable birth control option that isn't a condom, because yes condoms do absolutely fucking suck and why would you wear one if she's on birth control anyway. Men want reproductive control just as much as women, if not more. The problem is that men have a single sex hormone that does everything, anything hormonal has to act on testosterone and that has tended to make men suicidal, more so than in any of the female birth control trials. We don't have a hormone that can turn off the features of our reproductive system without it affecting quite literally everything else about our anatomy.

I will say however that if female hormonal birth control trials were performed under the same scrutiny that trials are now, female birth control probably also would not have passed, it's a shitty drug with far too many side effects.

[–]The-Devilz-Advocate3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]y2kjanelle2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A 2015 Telegraph poll showed that slightly more than half of men surveyed would definitely take a male birth control pill if it became widely available, while about a quarter said they weren’t sure, and another quarter said they wouldn’t.

In an online survey that 570 Healthline readers answered, 34 percent of men said they’d be willing to get an injection that blocks the flow of sperm for several months while 66 percent said they wouldn’t.

When asked if they’d be willing to receive a series of shots that blocked sperm production, 27 percent said “Yes” while 73 percent said “No.”

Men don’t want to. 80% of men relied on female contraceptives the last time they had sex. It’s common sense to assume from studies that show men don’t want male birth control and the fact that they overwhelmingly rely on women to just “be on a contraceptive” that men…don’t want it let alone would actually be responsible and take it.

Less than 30% of men used condoms in their last sexual encounter. That’s one of the 2 options they have. And…they didn’t wanna use it.

I mean at this point I’d be very happy to see more studies saying they want it, would use it, and have advocated for it in some way.

Hell, show me one PPD post about it. Honestly, I would really rather be wrong. I would rather be very slightly embarrassed on PPD than to have to deal with the reality that men really don’t give two craps that the majority of the burden of sex is on women.

[–]The-Devilz-Advocate3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In an online survey that 570 Healthline readers answered, 34 percent of men said they’d be willing to get an injection that blocks the flow of sperm for several months while 66 percent said they wouldn’t.

When asked if they’d be willing to receive a series of shots that blocked sperm production, 27 percent said “Yes” while 73 percent said “No.”

And what does this have to do wether or not a male BC has been developed?

There is a medical reason as to it's been harder to develop a male BC.

Of course males werent sure, the fucking science isn't exact on it's potential side effects. Men are doubtful by nature. Men in general go less to the doctor.

Just because you keep conflating the reason why male BC is harder to develop vs what men think of taking a potential BC doesn't make it true. Learn to correctly convey unbiased information.

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[–]slam9h49 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Reading some of these comments is enlightening! I get why so many of you guys here have so much trouble with women. It’s not your looks, your height, your wealth or lack there of, and it’s not your hair…. It is 100% your personality and hatred of women.

Some of you are so angry at women that you can’t see that this ruling is terrible for men as well! Imagine being a broke dude, fucking a broke chick, the condom breaks and boom she’s pregnant. Sucks because you’re both broke and can’t take off work or afford to travel out of state. Now you are stuck dealing with a child for at least 18 years that you never wanted with a woman you barely know. This is absolutely going to happen as a direct result of this ruling.

Not to mention the scores of women who have been out here saying sex is now too risky! That’s a negative for every man seeking a partner.

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Some of you are so angry at women that you can’t see that this ruling is terrible for men as well!

The level of glee this realization will bring will easily best the day Kevin Samuels dropped dead for me. And that was a hilarious and wonderful few weeks.

As a woman who wastes zero time virtue signalling about caring for the people who hate women, one of my favorite pastimes is watching misogynists own themselves to epic proportions.

Biology is not fair so in that, we will always be at risk near the bigger, stronger sex which is FILLED with irrational haters. But in all its great might, biology keeps balance. Because the wellness of the male collective is highly dependent on what it does to the female collective. The female sex will always adapt.

You cant tell them this, they are happy right now and will never believe you. Give it, at most, a month. I'd be surprised if we dont see the equal and measured self-bitchslap

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People can choose to not have sex, I also don't care too much if they have sex that only involves anal, oral, or other things. I also don't care if people have sex and they use multiple contraceptive measures to avoid pregnancy, what I do care about is what I consider the taking of another human life, I honestly don't know exactly where I classify an unborn baby as being a human life but I would say around week 8-12. This means that when two consenting adults make the decision to have sex that results in the creation of another human life I can now care since my belief does not involve those two people but the third which is the unborn baby in this case. Also as a society, we put laws into place that reflect our personal beliefs all the time whether that is how we want to be taxed, what we can do with our property, and how we have to treat other people such as protection from being killed.

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What I mean by “distraction”:

Everyone is going to be preoccupied for a decade or more on state level bans. The entire time, middle and upper class women will get their abortions, whether through travel or abortion pills via mail, so there will be no real social cost for them. And nobody will really care about the poor, as always

After that battle will come more battles over contraception, gay/trans rights and marriage, immigration and other social concerns. The Supreme Court will be doing its part in the sideshow for another 30 years, thanks to the new young appointees, regardless of who is president

While the masses are frothing over social issues, laws affecting gerrymandering, political term limits, lobbying and political corruption, and environmental restrictions — as well as other issues like global resource agreements, economic recession, climate change destruction, international business consolidation, human rights violations —- will be decided in favor of the elites

We saw the beginning during Trump’s admin, however incompetently it was attempted.

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You have to be an absolute retard to “accidentally” get pregnant. It’s called taking a birth control pill every single day or getting Nexplanon implanted, and pulling out. If you’re on some type of antibiotics which lower the efficiency of the birth control, you either use a condom or stick with blowjobs for a week.

There, I just told everyone on earth in one paragraph how to prevent unwanted pregnancy. But again, most people are dumbasses with a room temperature IQ.

I’m as right wing conservative as one can get but I personally don’t care about abortion at all. I’m not religious. You want to kill your unborn children, fine, go ahead. I’m not the one who has to live with it and it affects me not one bit. All this did is give the states their own power to decide its’ legality. Much like gun laws.

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Because you could easily just have sex with women if it is so statistically proven that women the worst sex with men. You shouldn’t worry so much about it if that’s the case. Your logic is absolutely flawed if you align with your statistic. Sex is an act humans conduct to reproduce. If you’re not having sex to reproduce and only using it as a means of getting off then why bother having sex with men? Trash logic.

Women can still get abortions if they do choose regardless in states that permit them. This isn’t about reproductive rights. The reproduction has already taken place once the child is conceived. The reproduction aspect is over. This is absolving yourself for the consequences of your choice to have sex knowing the risk involves pregnancy. The mothers job (yes, you’re a mother once you conceive a child) at that point is to carry her baby and birth it. With modern medicine, it is extremely rare for a pregnancy to cause a heath risk for a woman even for the lowest class person economically.

What pro-choice people are fighting for is literally granting access to medically murder a living organism that has been produced already. 95% of abortions are essentially used as a form of birth control. That’s absolutely evil and gross.

Wear a condom, take hormonal birth control, use Plan B, use an IUD, solely have sex with women (since men are statistically terrible) or go cross into another state if you fuck all of that up and still want to dismember your child you have ALREADY conceived. We have several ways to prevent pregnancy these days. Abortion is the most archaic and disgusting form of EVERY option available and all in the name of “women’s rights”. Playing god after conception is not your right.

As a mid 20s male, I am required to enroll in the selective service/be drafted if ever needed. I don’t like it but I understand it because the job would have to be done if our nation is invaded. That’s literally my life being totally controlled by the government sending me out to die in war to protect your ass. Men aren’t complaining about it in the way women complain about not being federally protected to vacuum out a dismembered fetus from their womb.

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I would not be the one imprisoning you, you can make the choice to not have sex that results in pregnancy by either practicing abstinence, using multiple contraceptive measures, only doing oral, or maybe even only dating women. All those are decisions you can make that I would not want to have any influence over, however, when you choose to have sex that results in pregnancy there is now a third party (the unborn baby) which from my viewpoint is considered a human life worth protecting around 8-12 weeks. This means that if you carry to that time while I did not care what you did before I now care about protecting this human life.

Again unless someone locked you up, forcibly got you pregnant, and made you carry to term no one is forcing you to give birth against your will, when you have sex that involves the risk of pregnancy you are making a choice there. If you think not being allowed to have an abortion would make you want to die then make the right choice and don't have sex and then you never have to worry about this issue.

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The amount of men on here who have no clue about why a woman might decide to have an abortion is outstanding. It's not always the woman who sleeps around with multiple men. Married couples have abortions. Couples who want children have abortions due to medical issues. Our bodies are not all the same, birth control doesn't work for all of us.
Some of us are raped and get pregnant. Some of us aren't financially ready. We aren't always allowed to get our tubes tied till we reach a certain age or have a minimum number of children. (My sister's doctor refused to perform the procedure) Sometimes the fetus gets stuck in our fallopian tubes and there's no way for us to carry it. We have to have it removed.

No matter the reason, it's none of our business. We should be able to make decisions for our own bodies.

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Wrong again. In this country you can literally kill someone walking down the street just because you think they’re scary. That’s exactly what happened to Trayvon Martin and his killer got off on self defense.

Also, the US has a high rate of maternity deaths comparatively. And even if it’s “rare” that shouldn’t matter. I should not have to gamble against any odds that someone will kill me.

The point is going completely over your head though. You’re saying u/mermaid28 is not listening to the other perspective but you aren’t either. I’m willing to meet you at abortion and ending a life being the same. But you can’t consider how ending a life is just in some cases.

No one is granted access to your body regardless of whether that access could save their life. This is why we don’t mandate blood or organ donations. If I stab you in the kidney, you have no legal entitlement to mine. No one is entitled to your body even if that means they will die.

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You can tsk tsk all you want. I answered your question, there’s no need to get all holier-than-thou judgy church lady on me.

And the reality is that aborton rates are way down from when you were young. Your cohorts had abortions left and right compared to the current generation. Modern fertile women don’t use abortion as a cheap and easy contraception the way y’all did.

But it just goes to show that pregnancy is not merely an “inconvenience” as you put it. Even women from your high and mighty generation had abortions, and plenty of ‘em. Clearly some women feel the need to defend themselves against their unborn children, if you insist on calling a fertilized egg a child. Of course, if you’re going to call them children, you’re likely to support criminal investigations into miscarriages too— there’s certainly a police investigation into every unexpected child’s death.

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I truly hope you people keep up this type of self-important condescending energy

I answered like with like. And it’s pretty rich if you to criticize me for supposed self-important condescension when your own comment is dripping with smug self-superiority.

And lol, there is no level of groveling or humility I could display that would slow your roll. As if me responding to a condescending “tutt tutt, you’re so naughty” comment with gentility could have possibly changed your views or the speed at which you want to grind women into subjugation.

Lol, I’m flattered you think my comments are so important, but I know your type doesn’t actually care one whit about the lives of women like me in practice. Your comment is just empty words. Nothing I said was going to make a difference to you— I’m just a lowly female, after all.

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In 20 to 30 years, we’re going to see young people that were born to unprepared parents - possibly to parents that never wanted them - that are going to struggle to function in society. Some will figure it out like I have and clumsily land on their feet. Others - most likely many - won’t.

My dad was born to parents that didn’t want him, and abused him as “punishment” for burdening and “ruining” their adult lives with his existence. His sister broke the cycle of abuse and has always been a wonderful mother. My father, unfortunately, decided to pass that abuse onto my sister and I. Now he’s poor and lives like trash (my parents divorced after my mom desperately tried to keep the family together) and an addict, and my sister and I have struggled to thrive until our 30’s and (in my case) late 20’s.

Expect to see higher percentages of the above.

To this day, I believe my father shouldn’t have been born. Even though that means I never would have existed.

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Being “prepared” to have a child is different from the idea of being prepared. My mom was prepared to be a parent, but not prepared for me to be born without an organ. She wasn’t prepared for the four days I had to be admitted to the hospital until they could diagnose that was missing an organ. She wasn’t prepared for the emotional stress of hoping the medication - that I’m still on today - will give me a chance at a normal life as she crushed the pills and mixed them with my formula and baby food.

My dad was as never prepared to have children. In fact, he never should have been born. His parents were too dysfunctional and raised a son that abused his children the second parenthood “went wrong.” They abused him simply for existing, he learned to parent from them. If the child becomes an inconvenience for personal reasons, abuse them. Punish them for existing. That’s what he learned.

Now my sister never wants kids out of fear for them. I have always wanted kids, and like my aunt have proven I will rise above. But the facts are facts, my dad never should have been born - I believe this even though that means I wouldn’t exist.

[–]max_peenor2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Reddit_User_543mil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I doesn’t change the fact that, objectively, my grandparents shouldn’t have had my dad. They should have been allowed to abort and go their separate ways.

My boyfriend comes from a healthy family. Are they perfect? Of course not. They have problems that are obvious to them and me, but objectively they are a “healthy” family.

My mom came from a healthy family with serious issues. But I still believe that my mom’s parents were ready to have her. I call them my mom’s parents because she watched her mother die from cancer when she was in high school, and her father died a year before my older sister was born. I have never known them as my grandparents, just my “mom’s parents.”

Allegedly, my maternal grandfather approved of my dad at that time. But with age, untreated mental health issues can ruin your life. My dad never got help like my sister and I have.

[–]max_peenor2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

y grandparents shouldn’t have had my dad

Yeah, but you don't know these things. That's the problem. It's only how you live it.

So as someone that had kids at an older (and younger) age, there is a set of tests you have done during the pregnancy. There is clearly only one reason you get these tests. You would never do them is abortion was off the table. In this situation, you know how things are going to end up and you can act on it. There are lots of people that have spent decades learning this shit and they aren't even trying to convince you to do something. They are just giving you the news.

But it kinda goes to my original point. When you are older it's a lot easier to see how this works. You've been dinged enough in life to make the hard decisions. When you are younger? Not so much.

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No one wants to talk about this. I think 30 years from now we are going to see an overwhelming number of young adults that were born into families unprepared to care for them and are struggling to be productive members of society as a result. The prevalence of single-parent households will increase. The number of families relying on government assistance will increase. Women's representation in the workforce will decrease. Rates of maternal mortality will increase. Economic disparities will increase. Illegal abortions and deaths of those who seek them will skyrocket. The funny thing is red states are ranked at the bottom in areas of economics, poverty, education, government assistance, and reliance on federal funds compared to blue. I'm really wondering if there goal is to birth as many low income babies from red states so that they can have people to vote for them.

[–]LeeroyX9 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, thanks for putting your thoughts down! Here is a few of mine:

There is no doubt that you will also see a rise in children with disabilities because there is now no medical response available after a scan which diagnoses.
there will be an increase in children born without prenatal care for a range of reasons, but cost will be a big one.
maternal deaths will obviously increase
I agree single parents will increase.
I’m actually thinking that there is a strong chance that there will not be a significant amount of women leaving the workforce, I think in some demographics workforce participation will be supercharged. I think educated women will further put off relationships as long as possible and focus on an alternative such as career due to feeling that relationships are too risky. I also think that this message will be reinforced by the family narrative and delaying pregnancy will become the norm. The child free movement will move forward further fuel by the outrageous cost of living and lack of options.
I think this will further discourage relationships among the younger folk that were already struggling.
there will be a brain drain in those states as young professionals who would like to start a family find safer locations with better healthcare options.

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They weren't breaking any laws until Americans voted for these GOP politicians to create these Republican Abortion Bounties and appoint judges to bend women and kids to their will.

It's like these GOP politicians can do anything now and people will keep buying their bullshit fantasy world.

The same president who installed those three judges with Mitch and these modern Republican politicians also tried to hang them outside the Capitol.

Installing Supreme Court Judges to erase a Constitutionally protected right with these batshit QAnon judges is a disgrace.

Millions of women and kids instantly lost a right they used to have - because of Donald Trump and the people still voting for this GOP Fox News alternate reality bullshit.

The same people pushing these Abortion Bounties are also blocking childcare in Congress. They wasted decades denying global warming - so they're forcing kids to be born into a world they've refused to help us save.

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In El Salvador, when they instituted an abortion ban, the number of teen girls committing suicide went through the roof: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-el-salvador-suicide-teens-idUSKCN0IW1YI20141112

Very sad what's going to happen in the US, all the teen girls who will be killing themselves. The numbers had already been ticking up even before this, with teen girls on track to equal teen boys in suicides: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/brainstorm/201906/gender-gap-in-teen-suicide-is-narrowing-study-finds. Now they will likely surpass them.

On a somewhat related note, when do we finally admit that America is culturally closer to Latin American societies than Anglo societies? Making it a state issue is officially the Mexican method, and El Salvador introduced restrictions in the last decade, whereas countries like Ireland and Korea have all gone the other way.

I don't think that culturally, America is really similar to a western nation anymore. Maybe Eastern European or Mexican?

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Why do you not support the option to just not bring another life into the world if it’s not wanted?

Because this is not your argument, not the argument of pro-choicers, and not the argument of pro-RvW.

Your argument is "not bring another life into the world if it’s not wanted by women".

I.e. the right to life is not granted by creator, morals, justice, sense of empathy, projected benefit, or even the state.

It's granted by passing through vagina. (I'm aware of existence of C-sections; the point stands).

Women should be allowed - and should be the only ones allowed - to practice eugenics. I'm not an ethicist to decide for everyone if eugenics is actually bad on principle; but I'm pretty sure that "eugenics for me not for thee" is pure fucking evil.

I'll adjust my stance when there's legal base and precedents to finally criminalize sperm theft.

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No one suggested nonconensual means. With food, society taxes people and redistributes money.

Food doesn't have to consent to being consumed. A human being has to consent to having their body used.

Sex workers are a thing if such a policy is desired.

Sex workers are already a thing. Go buy one if you're so desperate to meet this "need". I mean, clearly you don't care whether the person is there of their own free will or not, so...

My only point was that it's hypocritical to act like your desire for abortion is a right while, you don't care for arguably even more unfortunate people with even more unmet needs.

No. Our physical safety is not an equivalent need to your fucking blue balls, no matter how much misogynistic assholes want to pretend that they are. Your physical safety is an equivalent need to our physical safety. Getting your dick sucked whenever you want is not part of that.

Pregnancy deaths, rape and incest are fringe issues related to abortion.

"1% of abortions" is over 6,000 abortions per year in the U.S. alone, but fuck all those people, right?

[–]HolyPenguine2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Food doesn't have to consent to being consumed. A human being has to consent to having their body used.

Someone has to produce the food, so does providing food require slavery? No of course not, because there's a free market. There will be someone willing to provide sex for money of their own free will.

Sex workers are already a thing. Go buy one if you're so desperate to meet this "need". I mean, clearly you don't care whether the person is there of their own free will or not, so...

My arguments are from a neutral position. It's bad form to involve the individual more than hypothetically. It's also extremely bad form to suggest someone doesn't care about sexual coercion.

No. Our physical safety is not an equivalent need to your fucking blue balls, no matter how much misogynistic assholes want to pretend that they are. Your physical safety is an equivalent need to our physical safety. Getting your dick sucked whenever you want is not part of that.

Rape pregnancy risks are a rounding error. Deaths during pregnancy are rare.

"1% of abortions" in over 6,000 abortions per year in the U.S. alone, but fuck all those people, right?

You're dodging the main point. The vast majority of women can abstain from sex, just like many women on this debate forum suggest for incels, if a lack of access to abortion is so objectionable. A tiny rounding error of women who suffer rape doesn't impair the overall argument.

[–]IveGotIssues99181 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There will be someone willing to provide sex for money of their own free will.

So why don't incels go that route? Oh, because they think someone else should buy the prostitute for them?

The government provides people with money for food because you'll die without it. The government provides people with housing because you'll die without it. You won't die without sex. We can't even fucking give people free healthcare (again, something you will die without) and y'all are like "but no one will suck my dick and I'm too cheap to pay a hooker!"

It's also extremely bad form to suggest someone doesn't care about sexual coercion.

The only way that sex can be a guaranteed human right is through sexual coercion. If no one wants to have sex with (general) you, and you won't or can't pay someone to do it, the only way you can obtain this "human right" is if the government gives you a prostitute. Even in the real world, most prostitutes aren't there of their own free will (under the most conservative estimates, 50,000 people are victims of human trafficking in the United States alone every year, with about 80% of those being sold into prostitution), and you think that in this hypothetical world where the state is giving out women to incels all the women will be consensual prostitutes? Riiiiight.

Rape pregnancy risks are a rounding error.

Over 6,000 abortion patients in the U.S. during ONE YEAR isn't a fucking rounding error. And that's JUST the ones that got abortions- many more decided or were forced to keep their pregnancies from rape. Why do people not understand what percentages mean?

The vast majority of women can abstain from sex, just like many women on this debate forum suggest for incels, if a lack of access to abortion is so objectionable.

No one is saying that incels should abstain from sex if they somehow find a consenting partner in the future. We're saying that if ANYONE, male or female, cannot find a consenting sexual partner, their ONLY legal and moral option is to abstain from sex. Otherwise they are a rapist and should never be allowed to walk free in society ever again. If you are a consenting adult who can find another consenting adult willing to have sex with you, you're free to have sex with them (legally- there are obviously social consequences depending on who that consenting adult is), with the sole exception being if they are a close relative (and even that varies from state to state). What you're saying is no different from telling gay people after Lawrence v. Texas is overturned, "jUSt dON'T hAVe sEX hURR dURR". It's nothing besides bitterness and "if I can't have it no one can". Not to mention that it's counterproductive- if women abstain from sex, there's going to be a hell of a lot more incels.

[–]HolyPenguine2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't say I was in favour of "redistribution of sex" policies. Although given the ever more trivial women's issues we address the argument for it increases. Also, I'm British, we have healthcare and abortion.

I'm sure some food is produced with forced labour too. Obviously the police should address coercion, but there's nothing inherently immoral about prositution. You're really just making an argument for better policing.

Many women are saying quite a lot more than that though. There are a myriad of issues that hurt men who struggle to get laid. For instance, it doesn't help that men pay the majority of tax and women consume the majority of tax. As many have pointed out, it's the benefit of a boyfriend without one.

As I already said, I support first trimester abortion. I'm just putting the arguments made to men back to women. I feel sorry for the many women who are genuinely nice people. But to those who made such gleeful arguments to incels and those unhappy with their dating life, you reap what you sow...

And I'm still yet to hear why women can't just abstain from sex like incels are expected to! Abortion isn't a right just like sex isn't. So according to that view everything in the world is just!

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I've read about it enough to know that (and I'm bullshitting these exact numbers but the real ones are roughly similar) human genitalia nerve endings by body part:

Female clit: 10,000

Male penis: 2,000

Male foreskin: 40,000

So I mean, I'm circumcised myself. So I wouldn't know. But imagining that men are supposed to have something 4x as sensitive as a woman's clit--and seeing how much women react to their clit being touched; they literally like convulse when you touch it--I just couldn't take that away from someone else.

I get that you don't want him to suffer a "social stigma," but I'm not getting my kid circumcised and I'm telling him to be proud af about that. Plus, women like fucking uncircumcised dicks better--even if she has a negative gut reaction at first, that'll go away once they actually fuck and it feels better.

But idk, I prob just dislike when dudes want their kids circumcised because I wish my parents had actually bothered to learn about it, and kind of resent that they didn't spend time doing that and just went with "the normal." While my sex life is "fine" and I'll never know any different, it's weird to think that it could be even way better and I'll just never know

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If you were able to see the other side then it wouldn't even be a consideration for you. The social benefit of having a nicer dick? Really? Once the foreskin is pulled back they look very much alike.

The hygienic benefit is bullshit as well, you literally rinse it for a couple of seconds in the shower and you're done with it. It was literally invented to reduce sexual pleasure and promoted in the US by Kelloggs(Yes the Cereal guy) to reduce masturbation in boys. Like it's such an outdated and barbaric practice, look at the countries where it's high(Africa, Middle East) such underdeveloped, living in the past nations.

Not to mention the very low risk of a botched circumcision where having erections can be extremely painful and commonly leads to suicidal thoughts for the person.

It's just that I can't imagine ever wanting my son to not enjoy sex to his fullest potential.

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Human gender observation is typically determined by the following:

chromosonal: XX; XY (and myriad other combos and interpolation, but the former two are most common)
gonads: testes ; ovaries
internal reproductive organs: Muellerian duct system (female internal organs: fallopian tubes, uterus internal vagina) and Wolffian duct system (male internal organs (vas deferns, seminal vesicles, prostate, epididymus)
external genitalia: 🐱 ; 🍆🥜
secondary sex characteristics: Phenotypic characteristics, such as breast development, voice pitch, facial hair, muscle development, hips, buttocks, fat retention, etc. that distinguishes the sexes from each other but is not directly concerned with reproduction. The appearance of these characteristics is influenced by hormones.
hormones: Estrogen and Testosterone distributions and production

You’re perceived as male or female depending on the combo of the above.

A person can be born with XY chromosomes, over-index on testosterone and have female external genitalia and reproductive organs

Those people are rare.

Most populations have variance but for the most part fall within the biologically observed binary reasonably enough.

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They can be shitty for other reasons, but their stance on abortions are not one of them.

More expert insight from the political analyst, lol.

Yes, the values and laws of the population have nothing to do with the outcomes of said country. Totally a coincidence.

I'd actually argue it's the inverse. Stupid people endorse stupid laws. It's pretty easy, if one has a functional IQ, to extract how having children when you're a teenager and did not complete your formal education or become a skilled worker means the child is far likelier to grow up in poverty with inadequate parental supervision, than had the couple had time to prepare? Such kids are likelier to join gangs and turn to a life of crime. Multiply this on a macro level and because crime chases away investment of capital, you get shithole.

An intelligent person could more easily deduce why having such illiberal and inhumane laws incentivizes brain drain of a nation's most driven and talented citizens to complete their education in places that won't attempt to impede their freedom or their pursuit, allowing the receiving liberal nations to both profit from foreign student fees, and then become the beneficiaries when the degreed foreign students decide to stay and put down roots?

Because sub-95-IQ people like yourself uniformly lack the intellectual acumen to make such extractions and understand cause and effect, they always conclude that it's just a coincidence that people who think exactly like they do always produce shitholes.

It's not a coincidence. Dumb people endorse dumb laws.

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Right, I’m guessing your really young. Take a step back and look at the bigger picture,

Your not just saving babies, your forcing women out of the workforce and back into domestic life, families will become poorer because there’s more mouths to feed and less money coming in. In a few years there will be a large uneducated workforce ready to do cheap labour for peanuts. The government want to keep it this way because it means they get more money and an obedient workforce, then they turn their attention to people who use birth control to limit the amount of children they have and take it off them to force them into the desperate workforce, Then they turn to gay people and start to shame them for not having children, they can’t control gay childless people cause their not desperate enough, so they firstly start shaming them, then claiming their abominations, bible etc, then they start killing them and it also helps to keep the rest of society in check too.

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If we know the child is going to be born into an abusive family, you remove the child from the home. I wouldn't kill a kid in an abusive home, this argument is the shittiest one of all. Only a scumbag would argue kids are only worthy of living if they've got a good family. Go to children in foster care and tell them they'd be better off dead cuz mommy didn't want them, why don't you? (General "you", not you specifically. This argument just makes me mad af).

Getting raped is not an excuse to kill a child.

I would never kill a disabled kid, so I don't see why this would be any different. Unless the child was 100% going to die. As long as there is a chance at life, that chance should be pursued.

If the mother is going to die or at risk of death they should be given the choice on what they want to do. If it's a situation where the pregnancy would be unsuccessful anyways, ofc we prioritize the mother's health and well being.

Of course when you get into those situations there is nuance and I can't say I'm prepared to make the rules about every single unique situation, but the goal of the decision makers in those situations should always be to preserve life to the best of their ability, child included.

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I am so surprised how few people truly understand the conservative argument. Like don’t people challenge there own beliefs to themselves anymore. Instead you see a lot of people arguing against straw men they build in their head.

The non-Christian conservative argument comes from logic and is this.

Killing a child is bad, it’s morally wrong no matter who is doing it. If you see a mother drowning her baby many people would do anything to stop her. That’s established.

Follow the logic here.

When a baby is born, obviously it’s a human with human rights. But what made it human? Surely not passing the imaginary goal posts of their mothers vagina didn’t make them human.

Therefore at some point inside of the mothers womb the baby was human. At what point? We can use the heartbeat but there’s arguments for and against that. But even then we don’t know for sure.

We are not omnipotent beings, it isn’t our place to decide when someone is considered a person.

Therefore it is a grey area, an unknown, whether or not a fetus is a human.

If it’s a grey area, when and for what reasons is it morally acceptable to gamble the murder of a child through abortion? When you force yourself to think it through, it’s tougher to be pro-choice than it is pro-life. And it’s got nothing to do with the woman and her rights. It’s about the baby.

Consider the woman drowning her baby… most people would do anything to stop her. Now do you understand the zealotry of the pro-lifers?

To them it isn’t even a grey area. It’s straight up murder.

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You cant make good choices if you arent informed about what the choices you're making are.

They were, they just didn’t care. You’re not set up for failure when you did something you were warned against doing.

If you want to talk about education, fine, but don’t pretend someone sent you up for failure when someone tells you not to do something and you do it anyways. That’s YOUR FAULT.

And if we are talking about teenagers

I wasn’t having unprotected sex as a teenager, so you’re not getting sympathy for me. Lol

Trust me they are not soft on crime here in NYC lol.

Dude, people have been reporting on crimes in NYC that were preventable had New York not had stupid laws.

No one thinks criminals and needles are cute

You guys clearly did cause you adopted salt on crime policies and listened to that Defund the Police bullshit.

[–]distracted12341 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]LillthOfBabylon3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Me: Doing something you were told not to do is your fault.

You: YOU’RE A SADIST.

I can totally see why you’re fine with criminals running amok in the liberal areas. You don’t believe in personal responsibility. I’m certain you cry yourself to sleep every time a violent felon gets killed, even if its to protect someone else.

Just because you didn't have sex in highschool doesn't mean no one else is getting laid.

If you want to take risks, that’s your choice to make. Just don’t pretend you weren’t warned about the risks.

There’s a nice saying I go by: Don’t cry for the stupid, you’ll be weeping all day.

I bet you cry over drunk drivers dying because the car manufacturers didn’t make the car safer for them.

And they should know how to protect themselves.

If they do something they were told not to do, that’s still their fault.

If you were told not to jump out a window and you jump out a window, you don’t get to blame other people when they didn’t soften your fall. We can argue about putting literal safety nets for stupid people, but stop acting like the stupid person is a victim. They are not.

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[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Women: "Men have never had bodily autonomy taken from them!!"

Me: looks down at my deformed penis that is still fully legal and fully socially acceptable to do.

[–]pearllovespink [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]E-2-buteneProfessional Nice Guy [score hidden] 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blame_the_Muse{<my pussy tastes like pepsi cola>} [score hidden] 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]E-2-buteneProfessional Nice Guy [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled [score hidden] 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

If you think democrat leaders give two fucks about anyone, you're living in a fantasy world.

[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled [score hidden] 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]The_Meep_Lord [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They might actually not do anything because this is perfect leverage for them.

“OMG we cannot do anything about abortion because of Republicans, vote more of us in office”

I could see Biden purposefully not doing anything until election year just to try and leverage votes.

He is doing the same with forgiving student loan debt. Whether he will either push a bill desgined to fail and act like it is republicans fault or he will give the forgiveness out via an executive order about October.

The real question is why anyone thinks either Republicans or Democrats care about there ideology. They only do what they need to in order to get votes.

The only reason republicans are targeting abortion is because they are worried about birth rates and are trying to pressure women to not have casual sex to try and get them to marry up and be useful baby making favorites (or force women to have kids they do not want ofc).

The truth is that our rights, morality and privileges are just about “what benefits the elite in charge the most.”

No birth control? Sex before marriage is bad to make sure kids are born in a stable environment. Women exist to be baby making factories and that makes them happiest.

Birth control? Women being liberated and pressured to have casual sex with elite men. Elite men using women as sex toys is the most empowering thing for a women to do.

Abortion? Good because it lowers crime rates form unwanted children being born into the world.

But now that we need children more and more, expect morality to shift until women are slaving away making enough future cogs to keep the system running.

The individual women’s happiness does not matter at all. Just raise them to believe they want what is best for the elite.

Same is true for everything else.

Like why are financial abortions bad? Because the government has to pay for the child then.

[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Current democrats have done fuck all to further the liberal agenda.

There's no movement on:

Police reform

Healthcare for all

Prison reform

Gun reform (well, minor headway here)

reproductive rights

Etc

[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled [score hidden] 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Tell me how the reactions of women right now is supposed to prove red pillers wrong that women are perpetual teenagers?

"Oh my gawwwwd!!! If I have to actually take responsibility for my actions then I'm going to never have sex again!!!"

This is exactly how a 16 year old would act.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles [score hidden] 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

And yet crickets about male circumcision.

Curious.

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I don't hate women. I do hate you though.

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

How many years have women been laughing at male tears and how delicious they taste and told you sit down and shut up, and suddenly all men are supposed to be like, "oh no!! The precious women are in trouble! We must help"??

[–]Gallus_Magnum [score hidden] 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Nothing will improve men's circumstances. Feminism has seen to that.

All men can do is sit and watch the world burn.

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A woman with a DNA test proving your the father can.

A woman with a court ordered DNA test that the man would be running afoul of the law for not complying with, and in doing so could have a default judgment of paternity made against him can.

If a man gets a woman pregnant, and she knows where to find him, he's pretty much on the hook. Nothing has changed there.

I’m still waiting for you to explain how a solution (abortion) that not only doesn’t solve for the issue you’re pissed about (men being forced to pay for children they didn’t want) but actually makes it more likely to happen to him somehow equals men #winning

The issue men were pissed about was women being allowed to unilaterally opt out of responsibility while men couldn't. Going from that to neither party being allowed to opt out is a pretty definitive win for those who were pissed about the inequality of the situation.

You could argue that it's a Pyrrhic victory of sorts, but the cost for men really isn't that much more severe than what they were already being subjected to.

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[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you saying these men haven't been done wrong by women?

[–]Gallus_Magnum [score hidden] 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]yvaN_ehT_nioJI'm just here for the spicy bantz [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GoobleGobble_OneOfUs [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All the retarded women here that can't understand that you 100% have to use your body to save someone from drowning after you pushed them off of your boat in that middle of the ocean.

Funny how in all of their idiotic analogies, they are never responsible for the person being in the situation in the first place.

If the violinist scenario were actually a similitude to abortion, it would go something like this:

You kidnapped and poisoned a famous violinists and now the only way he can survive is by you being hooked up to him.

If you cause someone to be in danger, especially your children, and you have the ability to get that person out of danger, even if it means using your body to do so, you are legally required to do so.

You can't push someone out of a boat and watch them drown because it's a violation of bodily autonomy to help them back in.

[–]thetacobitch2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]LeeroyX1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

This was an interesting thought process that is now dead. It was always an uphill battle with tricky issues to overcome such as where the money would come from and the use of taxes, but now I can not see a single way forward. I mean your primary argument is sitting with a premise of body autonomy….

[–]distracted1234 [score hidden] 4 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]PrincessFKNPeachManlet Lover [score hidden] 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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Because the excuse for not strengthening the social safety net is that children are only their parents’ responsibility.

You said it yourself, most of them don’t pay, so it’s not even working. All it does it pit poor women and men against one another and add another complication to women getting welfare. (I am gendering this as a form of shorthand, I know it goes both ways)

And tbh, don’t get me wrong, I hate men that recklessly get women pregnant with no consequence. I just think the govt can’t be trusted to enforce men being fathers and it’s a vicious circle that makes more boys who grow up to be men like this, and focusing on investing in the children instead of punishing deadbeats can improve the future.

The burden of childrearing should be shared amongst all of society, because we all benefit from future generations existence.

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[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Huh...

Weird that I'm seeing women everywhere screaming for men to step up and "Get mad"

[–]distracted1234 [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dotnetguy321 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly why men don't give a fuck that you're losing your rights.

Women have never fucking cared about men's rights.

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[–]LeeroyX1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Perhaps. In this political climate I think it is all a bit of wishful thinking however that these issues are going to use the fall of abortion to leverage anything. I would be much more comfortable if I thought that there was a more comprehensive argument that had a foundation in a costs/benefit analysis. As unattractive as it is to discuss there is no denying that men are going to get smashed in the courts, financially and in loss of lifestyle/ life choices with the fall of abortion. I don’t see a lot of discussion of that. If that was at least accounted for, then a discussion of leverage would seem more plausible to me.

We shall see I guess, I hope I am wrong. Let’s get back to the theoretical debate when abortion is put on the table at a federal level once again shall we? As I am part of the grey haired part of the population, I hope that will be soon. Thanks for the chat!

[–]icefire54Red Pill Man [score hidden] 4 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link

[–]futureofkpopleechan [score hidden] 4 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

but what about before birth? the point is bodily autonomy. do you not care that you’re literally putting someone through torture? do you know what pregnancy does to your body? to have to live everyday of your life with another being inside of you growing and feeding off of you. the physical pain and sickness and mood swings and depression it causes you on a daily basis for 9 months straight, only to go through the horrifying and painful experience of labor. the contractions and sharp pains, the giant needle they stick into your spine. the hours, sometimes days it takes laying in agony in a hospital bed pushing and pushing just wanting it to be over already. and when it’s finally time… i don’t even wanna write the part. i could cry. let’s just say after it’s over your genitals are mutilated, ripped open all the way down to your asshole to create one big gaping hole. there’s piss and shit and blood everywhere, there’s the meaty piece of placenta on the table and the doctors are trying to stitch your vagina back together with a needle and thread. you have to wear diapers for awhile because your genitals are so fucked up and you can’t control them.

that is literally torture, i cannot believe people like you can comfortably say this shit. it’s disgusting.

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Two fronts: zeal and power

Zeal is really straightforward. There are few issues that can be so passionate to so many people as saving babies from abortion. Even people who think it should be legal don't like abortion, so it's easy to understand why many people would hate it. Then if you convince enough people to make that their single issue, they'll vote for you even if you slowly take away their healthcare, jobs, housing, education, civil rights, etc. Because, after all, you're Pro-Life™️ and that's what matters.

The power is where that other stuff comes in. Maybe it's a coincidence that anti-abortion, Republican states are also the ones largely doing all of those things I just listed. Or maybe those things fit together somehow. If you have a high birthrate of low-income, low-net worth, poorly educated people, you have a workforce that is desperate, disorganized, and relatively powerless. It is easy to manipulate and easy to control. Easy to enforce rules that benefit those in power without being questioned.

Maybe it's just a coincidence. But I live in those red states and I know so many poor, hard-working people who could never get an education and decent healthcare, who don't get paid vacations or good benefits, who've been carrying the weight of parenthood since they barely became adults themselves. Their lives are hard and it's getting tougher. But they'll keep voting for R's because they ain't babykillers™️.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SlothPear [score hidden] 4 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

And what options do they have if they die from complications of an unwanted pregnancy? What if they are permanently maimed by the pregnancy? Fired for being pregnant? Disowned and kicked out of housing? Killed by a domestic partner for getting pregnant? Are diagnosed with aggressive cancer at week 16? Find out at the 20 week anatomy scan that the fetus is incompatible with life? Tell me what man has any medical decision decided by the state? Women absolutely have less rights than men now and saying they do not is disingenuous at best.

Adoption is not a solution for an unwanted pregnancy, it's an option for a birthed child. An imperfect one at that - many adoptees deal with turmoil around being adopted. Don't make adoptees into some kind of mascot to say "see? It's fine, just put them up for adoption" when they are a community with a multitude of experiences.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer [score hidden] 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]SlothPear1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I asked for situations where the state makes medical decisions for men the way it's making abortion decisions for women. This is not one. Parents make the decision about circumcision and have a choice. An option is not the same as no option and pretending it is is arguing in bad faith, which you are doing. Also: yes, circumcision can be and is done on girls - it's typically far more horrific and life altering than that done on boys. It's so damaging, we now call it female genital mutilation.

Abortion is absolutely a medical decision. To abort or continue a pregnancy is one medical decision. How to abort and how to give birth are second decisions after the first is made. Pretending it's about choosing what medics are in the room at birth is again arguing in bad faith - if they had a choice and didn't want to give birth, there would be no birth.

Because you are deliberately arguing in bad faith, let me rephrase: tell me an equivalent situation where the US government removes all options (not allows a choice) for a healthcare decision for men the way the US is now controlling decisions about pregnancy and abortion for women? It must have stakes equally as high - physically (causes death and maiming), financially (causes lifelong poverty), professionally (limits or removes options for life), reputation-wise (gets them shunned for being 'a slut') - and be implemented at the same scale.

[–]abaxeron3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I asked for situations where the state makes medical decisions for men the way it's making abortion decisions for women.

"Men don't have female anatomy, therefore anything the state decides on male bodies automatically pales in comparison and does not count"; what? I am the one arguing in bad faith here?!

Parents make the decision

Yes; circumcision is even worse, because with abortion, a woman at least faces the natural consequence of her own decision to have sex.

An option is not the same as no option

Women have the option to put a condom in, take the pill, get an IUD, or abstain. In my analogy, men have no option. I'm of strong opinion that if women didn't abuse their option of scrubbing out 0.6 million potential human beings a year for convenience, no-one would ever care that they sometimes do it.

Also: yes, circumcision can be and is done on girls

Are we still discussing RvW or Central Africa here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation_in_the_United_States#Legislative_framework Even BEFORE specific laws on FGM were passed in the US, perpetrators were punished for battery and cruelty to children. My argument is not "it never happens". My argument is "the state never made medical decision for women that this is okay to do with them against their will, BUT made this medical decision for men".

let me rephrase:

You're not "rephrasing", you're taking the goalpost from where it was and launching it into orbit. You tried a bad faith gotcha and didn't think it through. Now you're trying to say that nature dealing a shitty hand to women in reproduction is somehow a great societal injustice. It's not. It's natural injustice. Just like men dying of heart attacks before even a single day in retirement.

[–]SlothPear0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

lol yes you are arguing in bad faith. You betray yourself by saying pregnancy is a consequence for sex. With that argument, any man who gets an STD deserves no treatment. It's a consequence of sex. Any man who doesn't work out and has a heart attack should have no treatment. It's a consequence of their actions. You just think no it's great women die or are sentenced to pregnancy and motherhood because it happens to women.

You know there is no equivalence between the state leaving something up to choice and the state leaving no choice. Being called on that is apparently me 'launching a goalpost into orbit.' ok drama king. There are a LOT of things (for both sexes) the state has not banned that are harmful. There is no equivalent where the state has expressly removed choice from men, with such harmful consequences, as they have from women with abortion. And how privileged of you to think women always have a choice in sex and birth control. Spoken like a man who has no idea what life as a woman is like. Hide behind you paper shields. You know that man that had a heart attack could have eaten less cheeseburgers - see how dumb that sounds?

You also know by my earlier comment that I am not for male circumcision because I did not choose it for my child. But no, it does not count as an equivalent to abortion in terms of consequence, scale, or state control.

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

With that argument, any man who gets an STD deserves no treatment.

No; with THIS argument, any woman who got pregnant deserves NO TREATMENT. No prenatal care/education, no vitamin prescriptions, no ultrasound control, no blood tests, no pregnancy/maternity leave, no breastfeeding bras sold anywhere, and of course no clean room, nurses, blood transfusion, painkillers, or obstetric assistance during delivery.

The equivalent to abortion would have been that any man who gets an STD deserves the right to go an kill whoever infected him. Or a cheeseburger salesman (or a McDonald's CEO if you're leaning communist) in heart attack analogy. Or just a random person.

Abortion terminates human life. Not a life fully equivalent to a strong independent adult college-educated taxpayer, or a violinist, but demonstrably human. I don't believe in Abrahamic god(s), and think that doing so CAN be justified. The US and several other countries have death penalty. Many and growing number of countries legislate euthanasia. But your analogy is built from the premise that no human life is terminated during abortion. This is a lie.

it does not count as an equivalent to abortion in terms of consequence, scale, or state control

Instances of the state ignoring medical and anatomical realities of men with serious consequences on nationwide scale:

Relative to female baseline, male bodies require more calories, proteins, and all micronutrients except calcium. No state is giving men food or supplements because of this. Selling food to men cheaper than to women is illegal. A study conducted in Sweden around 2009 found out that men's greater expenditures for food outweigh women's on pads, tampons, makeup, and shoes. xxxxx Appendix I xxxxx To my knowledge, Swedes are not so anatomically different from Americans.

Men almost universally have circadian rhythms with later alertness. The amount of colleges exclusively for men in the US, where schedule could reflect this biological reality without putting female students at disadvantage, can be counted on one hand. Having separate male workplace with later working hours is illegal.

Men's heavier and denser musculature requires regular exercise, especially to offset greater burden it puts on men's heart and vessels. To my knowledge, there is no country in the world that, as part of health insurance, provides specialized gym memberships and programs to men because they are men (and/or gives them an hour off work to attend them). There are countries where women work less hours because they are women. Lots of such countries, in fact. "Well it's because they look after childr-" - WHAT CHILDREN?!!! To my knowledge, in American realities, selling gym memberships to men cheaper than to women is illegal.

Men's shorter life expectancy, greater tax revenue, more years spent in workforce and employment, and SIGNIFICANTLY higher rates of acute and chronic workplace health conditions - justify allowing men to retire earlier than women. To my knowledge, the amount of countries that ever experimented with such a reform is zero. To my knowledge, in the US such a reform would be unconstitutional.

These are from the top of my head.

[–]SlothPear2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So an acorn is the same as an oak tree to you? A fetus is a potential life. A woman is a life that is already here. Abortion does not take a human life, it takes a potential life. Abortion is medical care. People either deserve medical care and it should be private between them and their doctors, or they don't.

All your whining about men have it so much harder I won't even respond to - I have a job, and common sense, and a medical history of being ignored and denied treatment for a chronic, systemic reproductive disease going back over 2 decades. Don't even try to come at me with bullshit about systems testing women better when I was left in pain that would have broken you for 20+ years and built a life despite it. Gee I wonder why men have more tax revenue, maybe because of the history of men suppressing women in the workforce and women being forced to stay home to look after kids. For the record, I make almost twice as much as my husband (who himself is well paid) so step off with your 'men are more valuable because of what they earn' bullshit. I could go through and list a million societal grievances where things are designed for men to the detriment of women (including your favorite example, heart attacks - women have different symptoms than men but symptom guidelines were initially based only on men). Men can retire anytime they have enough money, just like women. You know a major reason men's life expectancy is shorter? Your frontal lobe develops more slowly so you all take bigger risks and resort to violence more - so more men die early, bringing down the average. You choose more dangerous jobs - but don't come at me with any stupid shit about it being required because I build with power tools in my spare time (including renovating my house myself). Men also skip more routine health screenings than women (who usually have to schedule them for you - I do for my husband) so when issues are found they're more advanced. But as you would say, those actions reducing men's life expectancy are on men. Why should I pay for your irresponsibility, especially when I'm the one dragging your ass to the doctor trying to prevent it?

Here's the thing: you want men to do better at the expense of women. I want everyone to do better at the expense of no one. Banning abortion will very negatively impact men, too, but you're all out here acting like you just won a fucking prize because women are going to die. Congrats on your viewpoint that a child is so sacred they should be used as punishment for a woman for having had sex. That makes a ton of sense, but only if you're an incel. Non -incels are going to be dropping out of school to pay for a family, accepting lower wages, living with a lot more stress, paying child support (when they don't skirt their responsibility), and raising kids alone when the mother fucking dies (which is the shittiest deal of all). Way to go you self-righteous victim.

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So an acorn is the same as an oak tree to you?

Humans have very short "acorn phase" (tens of minutes). Our fertilized zygotes don't have to survive winter in soil. A sprout is the same as an oak tree.

Abortion is medical care.

Your STI/cheeseburger analogy sucks hairy balls and is built from a false premise. If "fetus is a potential life" was established fact that women universally accepted, a third of them would not develop PTSD after miscarriage. Euthanasia is also medical care.

All your whining about men have it so much harder I won't even respond to

I was responding to your question, providing five examples (four in the comment above, plus circumcision). Seriously, you asked for example of the state making medical decision for men; I gave you one. You moved the goalpost; I gave four more. Now I'm "whining", while you're being a reasonable factual logical adult bombarding me with personal anecdotes.

Gee I wonder why men have more tax revenue,

You don't. It's an interesting topic but you're approaching it with zero good faith.

Why should I pay for your irresponsibility,

YES. Exactly. This is exactly my solution to the abortion question. Women have as many of them as they want; but the moment national fertility rate falls below 1.95, social security system stops transferring men's money to female retirees. This is the compromise that would have satisfied me three times in a row.

Here's the thing: you want men to do better at the expense of women

What "expense" will be on women if men get their separate workplaces, hospitals, and colleges back? Fewer workplace rapes, murders, and harassment? If you mean abortions, I KNOW that men will not "do better" if they're banned. This is not the question. The question is 20 football fields of unborn babies every year. If there were at least only 10, almost no-one would care.

Men also skip more routine health screenings than women

Men also work more jobs where routine health screenings are a requirement. AMONG THOSE MEN, mortality rates are still higher than among women. I'll also make sure to tell those under one year olds that they should have not skipped their routine health screenings.

[–]SlothPear2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Look dude, you didn't provide a single example of the state making medical decisions for men. You're like Alannis Morisette singing about irony without any in the song. Parents choosing to circumsize their kids isn't the state making a medical decision. It's parents. Show me the currently standing state laws mandating that male children be circumcised (honestly or outlawing it) and the Supreme Court ruling that allows it. Really? Not having a gym membership paid for is state oppression for men? They don't have roads you can run on where you live? Universities have afternoon and night classes - take those if you're not a morning person. But oh no, you need one just for men or your delicate system is as harmed as a fucking 11 year old forced to bear her grandpa's baby on child-size hips. Riiiiight. You may be the most fragile man I've met. Congrats.

You have absolutely no idea how long a pregnancy is or what fetal development looks like, do you? Those 'heartbeat laws' apply when there is no heart. A fetus isn't even considered viable until 27 weeks. Tens of minutes is hilarious.

Euthanasia is medical care and I totally support it. Your stat about PTSD is not founded by other studies, which show no greater risk of PTSD for women who had abortions than did not. Way to cherry pick! Know what I got after my latest delivery of a very wanted child? PTSD and body damage that will never heal (officially diagnosed PTSD, and treated, I'm not just using a euphemism). So STFU about PTSD and reproductive outcomes unless you've lived it. While caring for a newborn.

If men (or anyone really) want to eat cheeseburgers every day, smoke a pack a day, drink a 6 pack after work each night - I don't care. But when they do and have heart attacks at 50, they drive up the cost for everyone, which prices people out of insurance and care. Which kills people (actual people, not chinos if cells). You're just ok with it because it's indirect and you can pretend it's not happening. Me? I still want them to get medical treatment. But then they don't get to be high and mighty about abortion 'killing people.'

I love that you think men are so untrustworthy that they can't be around women in workplaces, hospitals, and colleges without raping, murdering, and harassing women. Says a lot. As for how it would negatively impact women to develop a sex-based caste system - you really gonna propose separate but equal with a straight face? In this country? Women (well, white women) have barely had the right to vote for 100 years. You're right I don't need to wonder why men get paid more, I know it's because women were prevented from basic financial shit like having a credit card within my mother's lifetime. I don't need to wonder why parental leave isn't paid in the US (for both men and women) - it's to keep women dependent on men financially so you have more control. If you cared about life so much, you'd support it - but here you are wanting to force women to be pregnant and give birth ... while bitching about not wanting to pay for it.

lol I love that you respond to one reason for men having short life expectancies but not the others and act as though that's the only one that matters.

I honestly don't even follow your rant about social security, but survival benefits aren't just added to a spouse's social security. If you're eligible for survival benefits and SS, you get paid the higher of the two amounts. BTW, this isn't sex-based. It also benefits men of their wives die. It can go to parents, who may be men. It can go to children, who may be boys.

Look, I've got a family and a job and you and I are barely even in the same library let alone anywhere near the same page. I'd love to keep refuting you but I'm volunteering with abortion funds and it's a better use of my time than explaining to you why your lack of a discounted gym membership is not the sr as being required by law to share your organs and body at the risk of death. Have a good life, man. I'm out.

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Reed_49831 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

if women leave the workforce or start working part-time, of course it's mostly to care for children,

Which I totally understand and support as part of their biological reality - obviously, while men can do a lot of care for children, breastfeeding is (practically) irreplaceable biological function of women (formula has reduced to no microbial benefits of breast milk).

On top of various accommodations such as women's health clinics, shorter work day (which in some cases while making only 32-35 hours a week, regardless of maternal status, versus men's 40, still gets statistically counted as "full-time", and usually does not carry proportionally less salary for women), and maternity leave, lately several countries proposed or experimented with period leave.

Physical strength is (practically) irreplaceable biological function of men. Just as women's reproductive and breastfeeding capacity, it requires prophylactic and medical maintenance. The fact that life expectancy gap rose several times in the last century is by itself evidence that currently this maintenance is insufficient.

Mortality gap rose in all age categories. Including age brackets when boys are raised and supervised by their mothers.

Currently, any money and effort spent, any fund established, any action taken to make women's lives even easier and longer, is deliberate step away from equality.

As an obvious example why biological realities justify treating men and women differently, since men work longer hours, they usually have less time to cook. As a result, men statistically have to rely on processed food more. Most currently sold processed food is over-salted above male optimal baseline. Since women require less calories, and as a result consume less processed food even in the same circumstances as men, it causes lesser impact on their health.

Last time I checked, differences in men's and women's dietary needs were greater than differences between various ethnic and age groups.

Also, working out, which for men is a medical need, is counted in time surveys as leisure/entertainment.

all largely unpaid work.

Yes, obviously women not being given money for existing and loving their family is a greater issue than men dying.

Men spend more time on paid work, housework, and child care combined, and less time on sleep, in most observation years since we have reliable surveys. xxxxxxxxxxx

Women worldwide have less children than ever in human history.

[–]Reed_49831 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women worldwide have less children than ever in human history.

We've got 7.5 billion freakin people on the planet. We're suffering from global warming and an overpopulated earth with billions of Chinese and Indians who would like to have an American standard of living once they have enough money to do so, with all the problems that will bring. We don't need mothers with loads of children right now, and probably never again. We could have the current children per woman rate for the next 500 years and not be near the problem of "not having enough people".

I'm all for society providing support to male-specific ailments. I'm a man too and find the practice of male circumcision barbaric and I'm happy it's not near as widespread here in Europe. But I don't see how that means we should start to eradicate support for specific women's issues, like "stop giving money to female retirees if the fertility rate drops below 1.95", which is easily top five among the dumbest things I've ever read on this sub, and I've been here for years. And don't start with child support...it supports both male and female children.

From that paper you cited, the difference of hours put in between men and women is small. It makes sense though that men might spend more time working in total, most of it being their wagework. First of all, men are still taught by society that it's their duty to provide and their work their identity. Second, even if these men have responsibilites to spouses or children, if they have anything of a career, a part of that time is still for "them". Like, it gives them the chance to be promoted, make more money, gain more social status, advance. Even if they divorce and have to give a way some of their money for alimony and child support, they can still become wealthy and important. A woman can't make a career out of caring for her household and kids. But even considering that, I'm all for healthier work-life balances for men and women.

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We've got 7.5 billion freakin people on the planet... We could have the current children per woman rate for the next 500 years and not be near the problem of "not having enough people".

I said "Women worldwide have less children than ever in human history" to emphasize that impact of having children on women's time management, health, ability, life in general - is lower than ever in human history. Not to advocate chaining them to maternity wards.

"Over 80 percent of women in America will have children [plural] in their lives" is not exactly true. Or honest.

Women have less children than ever, pregnancy and childbirth complications are treated better than ever, schools, daycare, and other institutions meant to make children not distract mother from career - are more accessible than ever. Not everywhere at the same rate, but everywhere better than they were 50 years ago. Speaking specifically of the US, women promised (one of the like 20 last times or so) that they'll stop whining about workplace equality after 1963 Equal Pay Act. They're still whining. At some point, one has to admit that it's time to stop taking them seriously.

But I don't see how that means we should start to eradicate support for specific women's issues, like "stop giving money to female retirees if the fertility rate drops below 1.95"

MEN'S money.

Women promised that if their demands are met, they'll become financially independent from men. American social security system, thanks to women's longer life expectancy and men's greater earnings, transfers somewhere between 70 and 100 $billion from men to women every year through retirement benefits. I.e. if women halted OVERconsuming MEN's money for 4 months, saved money would have been enough to buy every American homeless person or family a place to stay.

One more time: women PROMISED that if their demands are met, they'll become financially independent from men. In nineteen frigging sixty three. In reality, they were artificially made financially independent solely from their husbands. Which - who would have thought - resulted in practical death of family institution. Which is the opposite of what women promised. In the context of the US, by "women" I mean specifically National Organization for Women.

Redistribution of money through retirement system is only the top of a pie. Although very thick and juicy top, but the pie itself has several layers.

https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10063/2852/Working%20paper.pdf?sequence=1

This paper allowing some eyeballing of the situation has been around for twelve years. "But its New Zeala-" - Figure 20B is USA. Yes, it's based on quite old data.... but not as old as women's promise of becoming financially independent in 1963.

First of all, men are still taught by society that it's their duty to provide and their work their identity

Women ARE part of society and have practical monopoly on children in their formative years.

A woman can't make a career out of caring for her household and kids.

And a solution of course is to give them 600 thousand abortions per year at men's expense, liberate them from supporting the elderly of their own sex at men's expense, print them artificial useless public sector jobs doing stuff that should have been automated 40 years ago at men's expense... ... ... and half a century later their highest achievement in "career" department is three killed film franchises in 10 years and one huge medical fraud Elizabeth Holmes who is not even in prison.

If political figures, movements, organizations, and people who support them are not held accountable for their promises - political promises - nothing matters or makes sense. We can all as well just go and hit the nearest wall with our heads.

[–]Reed_49831 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I still don't see where the problem is.

Women on average pay less tax dollars because they are more likely to have kids and take on unpaid labour in their household, caring for kids and older family members and even their spouses. They require more resources from social security because they have higher life expectancies, and being old usually requires more care and money. The welfare system of the US is, to my knowledge, meager, I'm not American and not in favour of cutting social security for 70 year old retired women, so I'm not gonna engage in a debate of "dismantle the welfare system" or any other Republican talking point you might have.

The statement that "women promised that they'll stop whining about workplace equality in 1963" is just as absurd and ridiculous as your "stop giving money to female retirees if the fertility rate gets too low" nonsense. First of all, there wasn't a national poll that asked all women in 1963 if they promise to stop whining about some social issue if law X was passed. If anything, representatives of a specific movement advocating for a law to be enacted might have said something like "if equal pay is achieved with this law, we'll be one step closer to equality." Second of all, many women today weren't even born in 1963 so it's absolutely inane to demand they never in their lifetimes demand that societal structures should be changed because some other women 60 years ago promised they would not do that anymore, LMAO!

And on top of that, there's no dedicated form of welfare payment that goes only to women! Any form of social security benefit a woman can get, a man is also entitled to. You want to stop giving an individual woman benefits that men receive, because "women take more money in society"? Are you sane?

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

it's absolutely inane to demand they never in their lifetimes demand that societal structures should be changed because some other women 60 years ago promised they would not do that anymore

Societal structures should be changed because they are unjust.

You want to stop giving an individual woman benefits that men receive, because "women take more money in society"? Are you sane?

I want men to retire earlier than women. At the scale and scope that would stop men's money being spent on women who hate them. Ideally, regardless of fertility rate, and until women's and men's life expectancy gap falls back into the realm of months instead of years; but if we need a proper excuse, men are forced to sponsor women who spent their lives hating them AND driving their very own country to slow extinction.

Any form of social security benefit a woman can get, a man is also entitled to.

What part of "men pay more into the system" is not clear? The system was not designed through divine revelation or dice fortune telling. People who came up with percentages and income brackets KNEW EXACTLY how much men and women earn and how long both live. They KNEW EXACTLY what would have happened if "retirement money" actually, physically existed on PERSONAL retirement savings accounts that a wife could inherit fully in case of a husband's death (if not clear, they would have lost the female future divorcee voter base). The system is deliberately unjust by design. It benefits women by design. Men are not robots. They earned this money.

If men literally die earlier than they get to have enough free time to dedicate to family and "unpaid labor"... it's not justification of women's underperformance that you think it is.

[–]peteypete78 [score hidden] 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]SlothPear1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It honestly doesn't matter. First, because nobody has a right to use another person's organs. But since we now live in a world without bodily autonomy for women, I will spell out what those clauses mean in practice.

Doctors, under fear of going to jail, will wait until there is no gray area where they could be accused of aborting a fetus before they will help a wan on medical distress. They will let a woman get septic and take her to death's door to before 'saving' her to prove they had to intervene to save her life. They will know hours or days ahead of this that it is the only option. They will not be able to act until there is no question the woman would die because she is already dying. So clauses about the life of the mother are intentionally vague - the pro-life pitchforks can and will come out if a doctor acts too soon, along with the junk science the right wing has been using for years (transplanting ectopic pregnancies, for example). Meanwhile a woman who must first nearly die before being able to get care .. will sometimes still die because it was delayed or denied.

"In case of medical need" is no longer the doctor's judgement. It's the state's. So it guarantees a woman will be left until almost dead before intervention so the doctor (and hospital) are not criminally liable. This already has happened at Catholic hospitals. A case like this is what spurred Ireland to repeal the 8th amendment - the woman (Savita) died of a non-viable pregnancy when denied an abortion because there was cardiac activity. She became septic. She didn't make it. So will women under the 'protection' of clauses to 'save the life of the mother.'

[–]peteypete781 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SlothPear1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men have vastly more bodily autonomy than women when it comes to reproductive rights. I myself am not for circumsizing boys (I didn't mine). But it is a topic that had medical reasoning behind it initially (reducing infections) and a lot of progress has been made in reducing the rate of circumcisions as better medical information is learned (the difference isn't that big). It is also parental discretion, not decreed by the state. This is happening to boys, not men, and the argument that it's ok for the state to control all women's reproductive choices because some parents decide on circumcision for their sons in consultation with a doctor is a false equivalency. Parents make hundreds of medical decisions for children in their care. I don't agree with several decisions other parents make. But it is not the state telling men they have to give up use of their organs and body and risk death, then criminalizing it when things go naturally wrong.

So what's your argument? Taking away a woman's right to decide how her organs and body is used is ok because we have seat belt laws? Women should be treated like livestock because some drugs are illegal? Those laws exist because they save lives. No matter how you define where life begins, banning abortion doesn't reduce the abortion rate. If you believe, as I (and science) do, that life does not being at conception, banning abortion increases the death rate by making abortions less safe. Pregnancy and childbirth are riskier than legal abortion in the US. Laws banning abortion are not acting on the same reasoning as seatbelt laws, which save lives.

Um no, did you read what I wrote? They won't need a lawyer. Doctors won't even get as far as a trial. They will let the woman nearly die before treating her to avoid any narrative that they acted too quickly and aborted a fetus that 'might have survived' or that the mother's life 'wasn't in danger.' It already is policy at Catholic hospitals. It has already killed women, even before it was law.

[–]peteypete781 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ImogenCrusaderNo Pill [score hidden] 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

They can put a child up for adoption: still requires them to be forced to give birth to the baby. Something the government has no right to force then to do.

They can drive: requires a car and gas money. Or just even more money to pay other transportation. Or an understanding friend with a car who can afford the travel ect.

They can take the morning after pill: not depending on the state they can't!

The only thing I can't argue is surrendering it, never heard of non adoption surrendering, but to be fair I'll give you that one.

And yes, women still have more wiggle room than men, but the price of sex is risking pregnancy. And while I feel for men that want a child only for it to get aborted they're not the ones whose bodies are changing (and in some ways permanently from the process: you think those hips ever return to what they were?) so ultimately it's a woman's decision alone whether to carry the pregnancy to term.

At least until the day we can truly make babies in test tubes.

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-they can put a child up for adoption/surrender the child. - my father was adopted. His biological mother, who we now know, is straight up traumatized. It’s been 60 years since the adoption, and she still sobs/has panic attacks talking about what she endured during that point in her life. Adoption is traumatic, and this country does not have accessible mental health care. Regardless, this scenario still forces women to give birth, which is inherently dangerous and traumatic in itself. Not to mention how overloaded the foster care system is already.

-they can drive to a state where abortion is legal. - I think the legality of this is up in the air? Regardless, what about low income women? Some people’s closest abortion clinic will be over 1000 miles away. Not everyone has a car, not everyone can afford that flight or gas money, or staying in a hotel.

-they can take the morning after pill - did you know this doesn’t work in women over a certain weight? Something like 150 lbs. Regardless, even this pill is not always effective AND it’s expensive. Not everyone has $50 on hand.

Abortion is healthcare.

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[–]distracted12343 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you saying - leading up to the act, during and after women have no control of a man cumming inside of them?

No dude obviously not. I'm saying that there are a myriad of things that can happen. The condom could break, the pill could be out of stock, the man could take the condom off in the middle of sex without telling you or sabotage your BC in other ways, you could accidentally skip a day on your birth control and forget, your IUD could become dislodged, your IUD could just not work, you could simply be undereducated and misinformed about sex and pregnancy ESPECIALLY if you are a teenager or even a 12/13 year old girl.

Life is extremely hectic and people are so preoccupied with putting out fires, dealing with crisises, paying their bills etc that sometimes things slip through the cracks. and most forms of birth control especially hormonal requires EXTREME consistency. Have you never fucked up?

But you believe that because someone made a mistake they should have to pay with their body and their future. That just seems to me like either you don't have a realistic understanding of life or you want to see people punished.

[–]catfishchapter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The condom could break

Take Plan B

the pill could be out of stock

Then tell him you're not having sex until you're protected

the man could take the condom off in the middle of sex without telling you or sabotage your BC in other ways,

Take Plan B - if you're having sex with a guy that you thinks that is even a possibility, re-evaluate him

you could accidentally skip a day on your birth control and forget,

Don't let him cum inside at any time and also wear a condom. Take Plan B if you're unsure and make sure to set an alarm.

you could simply be undereducated and misinformed about sex and pregnancy ESPECIALLY if you are a teenager or even a 12/13 year old girl

So now sex education should be enforced and give more power to women to take it back and practice safe sex.

But you believe that because someone made a mistake they should have to pay with their body and their future.

No. I believe people should be accountable and women should take back their power and say no to situations that will put their future life on the line. Women should be taught about their cycles and ovulation.

It sounds like you don't ever want to face consequences and believe the world should bend to your will because you and your partner wanted to get off, without thinking of what happens after an hour of pleasure.

[–]distracted12341 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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I do worry about them and it's why I think women now should be fighting for more widely set sex education and more access to contraception. We have fallen into a victim mentality of blaming everyone but the actions we, as women have control over.

I believe woman should see this as a turning point to be even more picky with men and be more mindful of who we are choosing to lay down with because it IS something we control (not rape of course)

The access to our body in a relationship or a ONS first comes from us. I'm tired of men using the excuse of "condoms" don't feel good and women accepting it. We need to know men do not have that power, their pleasure comes last because we have created a boundary with our body. If they chose to disrespect it - that gives you an insight of who the person is and someone you should not be with.

We have so much power. We control reproduction. We should ensure that from the very beginning, little girls, teenagers and women utilize it. Tbh, I think we are fighting for the wrong things at time. But that's just my thoughts.

[–]distracted12342 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]catfishchapter2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That is definitely a concern. I am Canadian (lol) and someone sent this to me in regards to US Data on abortions. Here if you are interested to read the whole thing

https://givingcompass.org/article/the-demographic-breakdown-of-women-who-are-getting-abortions

One thing that stood out to me was:

Among women with unintended pregnancies, 54 percent were using no birth control. Another 41 percent were inconsistently using birth control at the time of conception.

And

The most common reason cited is that pregnancy would interfere with education, work or ability to care of dependents. Financial stress also plays a major role in women’s decision making. Seventy-three percent of women reported that they could not afford a baby at the time.

Though they don't have much on it about age. I could only assume this is happening during their 20s. I'll need to find that data. But for the amount of unintended pregnancies - goes back to the main point of prevention first and why so many women are choosing to not take all them that is available first before abortion is even on the table.

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Depressed men often have bigger concerns than getting laid.....like fighting off suicidal ideation and the urge to just never leave their bed again. You think someone who can barely brush their teeth really has the energy to worry about chicks?

Did.......did you just not read the part where I mentioned I'm asexual aka have no sexual desire and never had willing sex? And this isn't a club of one, there are plenty of others like me, don't give a crap about sex.

So yeah I think women aren't nearly as horny as you'd like to paint them. Especially if said "sex strike" is to prevent something that would affect the rest of their lives one way or another. I think men will not wanna be hooked on child support or marrying a woman they might not know. The consequences for failure are severe, and while obviously not everyone is going to be smart, I think a significant amount of men AND women will suddenly find porn more appealing than actual sex.

You are right about teen pregnancy and illegal abortion though.

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It’s almost all men today. My husband is fairly typical. Extremely few men will marry a woman without sex before the marriage today.

Even the Puritans, the famous 1600s religious group that gave us the word “puritanical”, had tons of premarital sex. According to studies of birth and marriage records, roughly 10-30% of brides were pregnant at their wedding— meaning likely even more were fooling around before the wedding night.

Likewise, the traditional engagement ring practice was invented entirely to compensate women for no longer being a virgin if the man broke off the engagement. Fucking before marriage was so standard that one of our cultural touchstones was created because of the prevalence of premarital sex.

So yeah, even staunchly religious men of eras past demanded sex before marriage.

Men who will truly wait until marriage are quite rare, and there are far from enough of them around for most women to have one.

But yeah, sure, I agree I’m not beautiful enough to get any man to eventually have sex with to date me with no sex until marriage. I already said I know I’d have been an old maid.

The men willing to until marriage get scooped up quickly by pretty young church girls, and I’m not desirable enough for them. I acknowledge that I’m a general failure at being the kind of woman that religious men wait for, it’s fine. And I wouldn’t want an arch-conservative guy like that anyways— there’s usually a huge price to pay with them.

[–]Anti_Thing1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The Puritans ran a theocracy, so unfortunately they included people who weren't truly devout.

Christians who had sex before marriage were obviously not the staunchly religious ones, unless they were very ignorant/misinformed.

I know plenty of average & below-average looking women (including several who are morbidly obese) who successfully saved themselves for marriage.

The men willing to until marriage get scooped up quickly by pretty young church girls

I wish that was always the case lol, otherwise I probably wouldn't be on PPD! I agree that that's generally the case for those lucky enough to grow up in large churches with lots of kids close to them in age, or to go to Christian schools or Christian summer camps. I would say that people who believe in saving themselves for marriage tend to pair off w/ their looksmatch.

[–]badgersonice1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Christians who had sex before marriage were obviously not the staunchly religious ones, unless they were very ignorant/misinformed.

And yet they weren’t excommunicated or exiled in that theocracy.

Your comment is just a “no true Scotsman”, but it’s not a valid argument. They were still puritans, and if up to a third of women were pregnant at the altar, that means substantially more were having sex before marriage, because you aren’t actually guaranteed to get pregnant immediately when you have sex. If that huge of a percent of your population fucked before marriage, you can’t say they’re just all non-Christian, lol. It means that a huge portion of Christians have sex outside of marriage.

I know plenty of average & below-average looking women (including several who are morbidly obese) who successfully saved themselves for marriage.

Seems much more likely they said they saved themselves for marriage, not that they actually did. Men don’t wait for women they don’t find attractive.

I agree that that's generally the case for those lucky enough to grow up in large churches with lots of kids close to them in age, or to go to Christian schools or Christian summer camps.

Sure, they do have to be around other like-minded Christians. That’s a given.

I would say that people who believe in saving themselves for marriage tend to pair off w/ their looksmatch.

More or less, sure.

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I don’t have a clue what percentage (there seems to be no research on this), but many women who are pregnant will tell him so that he can support her in the abortion. Loads of women actually do expect the person they’ve been intimate with not to be a total sociopath about something that’s difficult for her.

And likewise, many women don’t think men are irrelevant to the whole process— women know it’s half his fault that she’s pregnant, and they’re not going to shield him from the consequences so she can bear full brunt of them all alone. At bare minimum, a lot of women expect the man to help pay for it— abortions can be pricey, and she may not have infinite money, you know.

And shockingly, many women do actually stay with the guy who got her pregnant even if she got an abortion! Even married women and mother have abortions.

One woman I deeply respect is one of these women— she had already had 3 kids all young adults when she got pregnant again unexpectedly in her 40s. Yes, with her husband she’d been married to for 20+ years. She didn’t “tell him her period is late but that’s about it”. They made a hard decision together.

Yeah, if the only women a man is ever with are one night stands and he treats them like a flesh light anyways, she probably won’t say anything because she already knows he don’t care about her at all, whether she jumps of a cliff or wins the lottery. And obviously, she might not tell the man if she’s afraid he’ll hurt her over her decision (and that could happen if she has an abortion or keeps it, depending on the man). And sure, she likely will try to keep it a secret if he raped her, for fear of further violence.

But it seems really unlikely that women don’t tell the father ever. Many women do let the man know.

[–]Laytheblameonluck1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And what about FWBs

You mean friends with benefits? Often it’s a long ongoing relationship that’s simply has no longer term commitment planned. But women yeah, women typically talk to their friends.

These aren't a minority of sexual relationships anymore.

They are not a majority of sexual relationships, lol. No.

Most women are not the sluts you focus so much attention on. Most women have relationships.

Of the dozens of sex partners women have, what you describe makes up about three, max.

The median number of lifetime sex partners for American women is something in the range of 4-7… not dozens.

Stop getting your information on women from black pill forums and porn. Most women aren’t living the life you would choose if you were a woman because they are not men. You are projecting male sexuality onto women. Women are not men.

[–]Laytheblameonluck1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women ARE getting the n-counts I describe in cities.

Among the women you prefer maybe.

But if the median is 4-7 partners, that means half of women (and men) have that number or fewer partners, and half have that number or greater. It’s also estimated that roughly 83% if the US population lives in urban area— meaning that even if all the lowest n-count women lived in rural areas (which… lol, no), even then, all the women with n-counts equal to 4-7 would still live in the cities. It wouldn’t be hard to find women with lower counts even in that wildly unlikely scenario.

And in addition, women of the younger generation (millennials and gen z) actually significantly less promiscuous than their hippie boomer free love or gen x parents.

You’re just wrong in imagining that most women are the sluts you hate.

Closer to a dozen partners.

You said dozens plural earlier to scare monger. Now you’re changing the goal posts because you knew that was ridiculous. You’re still wrong with “about a dozen” for most women, but at least you’ve realized your prior claim was just black pill propaganda.

I good point was raised: why don't women agree with men about abortion prior to sex?

Many do, and I’m sure even more will now. But sure, I believe you that the women you have had sex with might not have. Some women who have casual sex with lots of men don’t really worry about the possible consequences, the same as the men they’re having sex with.

But I know discussed it with my husband before we started having sex.

[–]toughestanswers [score hidden] 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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History also doesn’t care about your completely random comment here, so why did you waste your time writing it?

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] [score hidden] 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m responding to someone dismissing my experience as irrelevant. My point is that my comment matters at least as much as his.

I don’t think that’s trolling.

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[–]pol-mods-eat-dicks1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

They are an edgelord who apparently spends all their time posting sexist comments on this sub. 🤷‍♂️

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]toughestanswers1 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Yet the person you're responding to has posted dozens of comments this weekend.

Lmao keep doing this though you people behaving this way with regard to people you disagree with is a large part of how trump was elected, how he was able to appoint the glorious conservative jurists to the supreme court, and their ensuing consignment of Roe to the dustbin of history

Keep it going it's like lighting accelerationism on fire it is

FUCKING LIMITLESS

AutoModerator · 2022-06-24T16:00:11+00:00

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how far the pendulum is going to swing because of you people's haughty, unearned self righteousness

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Freezing sperm can be expensive and insurance does not usually pay it unless you have a medical condition. It might not work correctly and your sperm could be lost due to plenty of errors in the chain of storage.

Vasectomies are not something that should be treated as easily reversible. Ask any doctor in this field and they will tell you the same thing. Every year after a vasectomy the chance to successfully reverse it goes down. After a few years it is already a coinflip.

Perpetuating this dumb myth is either done maliciously by misandrists or by people that refuse to educate themselves or got fooled by said misandrists. Please do not be part of that. By spouting this unscientific view you are basically on the same level as people telling young girls that the pullout method is all the birth control they need.

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You sound stupid

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[–]Debubba 11 points12 points13 points 4 years ago (148 children) | Copy Link

I am so surprised how few people truly understand the conservative argument. Like don’t people challenge there own beliefs to themselves anymore. Instead you see a lot of people arguing against straw men they build in their head.

The non-Christian conservative argument comes from logic and is this.

Killing a child is bad, it’s morally wrong no matter who is doing it. If you see a mother drowning her baby many people would do anything to stop her. That’s established.

Follow the logic here.

When a baby is born, obviously it’s a human with human rights. But what made it human? Surely not passing the imaginary goal posts of their mothers vagina didn’t make them human.

Therefore at some point inside of the mothers womb the baby was human. At what point? We can use the heartbeat but there’s arguments for and against that. But even then we don’t know for sure.

We are not omnipotent beings, it isn’t our place to decide when someone is considered a person.

Therefore it is a grey area, an unknown, whether or not a fetus is a human.

If it’s a grey area, when and for what reasons is it morally acceptable to gamble the murder of a child through abortion? When you force yourself to think it through, it’s tougher to be pro-choice than it is pro-life. And it’s got nothing to do with the woman and her rights. It’s about the baby.

Consider the woman drowning her baby… most people would do anything to stop her. Now do you understand the zealotry of the pro-lifers?

To them it isn’t even a grey area. It’s straight up murder.

[–]SliptheLust, Thrust, Bust and Dust [score hidden] 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Anything having a balance of good results (considering everyone) is morally permissible. Pro-life does not consider the results for the mother, the father, society or the taxpayer in any capacity.

I know what it was like to not be born yet. We were all in a womb once. It's literally nothing. Yet, forcing women who are fully sentient and conscious to birth babies, there is an excess of suffering.

To me, aborting a baby is the same thing as refusing all the other trillions of potential children that could exist. Just because the fetus got closer to the potential outcome of being born doesn't mean it is capable of the complex suffering the mother carrying it is feeling.

Until we can harmlessly remove fetuses from unwanting mothers and grow them artificially, there's really no better alternative. Even then, the baby being born can still cause a lot of undue suffering for the mother, especially if it was rape or incest. And then from a utilitarian perspective, who even wants these artificially removed fetuses?

[–]E-2-buteneProfessional Nice Guy [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Anything having a balance of good results (considering everyone) is morally permissible.

Oh men! This seems dangerously close falling into a common objection for utilitarian ethics. There’s a classic thought experiment I’ll run by you:

Let’s say I’m a transplant surgeon. I have several patients, each of whom needs a different organ to avoid dying; one a kidney, one a heart, one a liver, etc. Would it be morally permissible for me to abduct someone and harvest their organs to save the 4 people in my hospital? It would seem that doing so creates a net positive balance of happiness, no?

I know what it was like to not be born yet. We were all in a womb once. It’s literally nothing

Just because you don’t remember it anymore doesn’t mean nothing was happening. I don’t remember being a newborn or what happened while I was asleep last night, but most people would consider this impermissible.

Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that a fetus doesn’t possess any level of sentience, which where true, I think is totally reasonable. But the issue becomes complicated when you consider that recent evidence suggests a fetus likely has some level of awareness and pain perception at 12 weeks.

I think that gives us plenty of wiggle room to allow stuff like first trimester abortions, but requires us to be very careful in how permissive we are in supporting abortions wholesale.

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First of all, no one is calling any one a whore.

Married women can’t sleep with their husbands now? Why do I need to use condoms with my husband? That’s what birth control is for.

Now you're being hysterical, and like I said before I am a woman. You do know that condoms are not only for STD's but it's for pregnancy prevention. So just because he is your husband you can't practice safe sex to not get pregnant? That sounds idiotic.

You’re trying to dictate what type of birth control women use. It’s not your fucking body or relationship

So YOU deal with the consequences, in this case a child because of your irresponsibility and your pleasure lol. It's not that difficult to understand

So take BC or whatever and use a condom too.

A couple of hours of pleasure vs having to get pregnant then aborting.

Make it make sense lmao.

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]catfishchapter3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The pro-life girls are hilarious lmao. I’m 29 years old and have been sexually active for a while. If I didn’t believe in using protection or birth control I would have a couple kids by now. I’ve never been pregnant in my entire life.

What you’re failing to acknowledge as a woman is that BC fails, rape can occur, and life threatening pregnancies can happen. You’re selfish af for making these innocent women carry through these dangerous unwanted pregnancies that can result in death. All because you want women to use your desired form of BC? Prolifers are batshit crazy. I’ll never respect the women. At least the men can claim the misogyny that society is plagued with. What the fuck is your excuse?

Stop worrying about the next woman’s coochie. Worry about yours. Y’all are the Karen’s of the generation lmao.

[–]catfishchapter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm 28 years old as well so been active for a while too. Do you want a metal?

Rape is a minority of cases so stop trying to use the exception. I've already stated that that is another story along with life threating situations that endanger the mother - That's obviously just common sense. Reading comprehension is important.

If you're not advocating for women to be more careful, women to be further educated in sex and teaching woman that they have the power of reproduction - when and how it happens, you're advocating for abortion to be used as birth control.

So many steps are in place to ensure conceiving doesn't happen. But you don't want woman to use those because you think it's controlling women? So you don't want women to have control over their bodies because of pleasure? You don't want women to be educated and prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening? You want women to go through life carrying a burden of guilt from aborting their child ? You want women to continue getting pressured to have unprotected sex from men that say it just feels better?

I'm worried about women who think they have no right to say no and no choice over how to protect their bodies.

But I guess you want a bunch of submissive, people pleasing women who don't know how to protect the most vital parts of her body until she's ready.

Your poor unborn children and family around you. You lack every ounce of personal accountability lmao

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Before I respond let me point out a few things. You’re a black woman correct? This will effect our community the most so I was shocked to click on your profile and see that. There will be so much damage done to the black community due to lack of resources now. So many black women will now give birth to children they cannot afford to take care, products of rape, and potentially deadly due to our high pregnant mortality rate and reported pregnancy complications.

We also have higher rape statistics than any other race. Let’s list them shall we.

1 in 4 black girls will be sexually abused before the age of 18.

1 in 5 black women are survivors of rape

40-60% of Black women report being subjected to coercive sexual contact by age 18

African American girls and woman 12 years and older experienced higher rates of rape and sexual assualt than white, Asian, or Latina girls and women from 2005-2010.

Among students, 11% of Black Girls in a nation high school sample reported having been raped.

40% of confirmed sex trafficking survivors in the US are black

Last but not least, for every Black woman who reports rape, at least 15 Black women do not report.

Do I need to type that one again for you? Black women are too afraid to report rape. Your bullshit 1% rape data is inaccurate. If women are too afraid to come forward about rape then how the fuck can they collect data? They CANT. It’s not fucking reported.

Let’s move onto black women and pregnancy. It’s extremely dangerous for us to not only be pregnant but give birth. I know black women who are terrified to be pregnant and they WANT kids. We’re oppressed in every way, shape, and form but here you are preaching your pro-life garbage that will kill black women.

Black women are three to four times more likely to die from pregnancy-related complications than white women

It’s partly due to lack of access to care and poor quality of care play a role in the disparity.

Black women had the highest age-adjusted prevalence of preeclampsia (12.4%) compared with Hispanic (8.2%) and white women (7.1%)

Black women over 3 times more likely to die in pregnancy, postpartum than white women.

Black Women Five Times More Likely to Die from Pregnancy-Related Cardiomyopathy, Blood Pressure Disorders Than White Women

Would you like me to keep going? Because I can. We’re DYING during pregnancy at alarming rates more than any other race. Here the fuck you are attempting to force black women to give birth when abortion is an option. Those medical abortions where women barely make it out alive are US, if they even make it out with a pulse. How fucking dare you have this piss poor ideology while being a black woman. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Not only that, but are you even Black American? You’re Canadian? Stay out of Black Americans business. Your opinion doesn’t matter here anyway. You have no say so on what happens. You can’t even vote at local elections. Once again, mind your own vagina in Canada. Where you have maternity leave and an overall better health care system. But yet here you are telling Black American women to suffer. What a joke.

[–]catfishchapter2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh so now you make this about race and rape because you can't stay on topic. Gotcha.

Did you know planned parenthood was actually founded by a racist women named Margret Sanger that believed blacks and other minorities shouldn't breed, which brought upon birth control and abortion rights?

Sanger also believed in eugenics — an inherently racist and ableist ideology that labeled certain people unfit to have children. Eugenics is the theory that society can be improved through planned breeding for “desirable traits” like intelligence and industriousness. Margaret Sanger was so intent on her mission to advocate for birth control that she chose to align herself with ideologies and organizations that were explicitly ableist and white supremacist. In doing so, she undermined reproductive freedom and caused irreparable damage to the health and lives of generations of Black people, Latino people, Indigenous people, immigrants, people with disabilities, people with low incomes, and many others.

And yet

But year after year the statistics reveal that black women and economically struggling women — who have above-average rates of unintended pregnancies — are far more likely than others to have abortions. About 13 percent of American women are black, yet new figures from the Centers for Disease Control show they account for 35 percent of the abortions

Along with

A majority of abortion patients are in their 20s. Just 9 percent are under 20, and around a third are over 30. Teenagers used to make up a higher share, but there has been a sharp decline in teen pregnancy in the United States, starting in 1991, and a corresponding drop in abortions among teenagers.

So instead of trying to get into the details of why blacks in America are being treated this way and trying to spread education into the neighborhoods to women youd prefer they don't and just continue getting abortions as that IS their birth control when you take into account how many are uneducated about safe sex

Among women with unintended pregnancies, 54 percent were using no birth control. Another 41 percent were inconsistently using birth control at the time of conception.

But go off. Learn some more about your history so you don't have a Canadian educating you. You want to be a victim so bad, it's actually pathetic.

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First off, I’ve been discussing rape and medical pregnancy. You IGNORED it because you don’t give a shit about them.

You can tell you’re not African American lmao. Newsflash, most companies and corporations were founded by racist white people. They’re still in charge of most companies here. Things are just more subtle and internal now.

You’re lost and I no longer care. You don’t have to give a shit about Black American women and how we will suffer the most out of any race because of the ban because your opinion doesn’t matter. You don’t care about the rape victims, incest victims, poverty stricken babies who will end up in the foster care system, or the medical miscarriages that will end the lives of many. You don’t have to care or even make a lick of sense because you aren’t American. You have no say so in anything. Your voice means nothing. Worry about yourself and mind your own vagina for the last and final time.

[–]catfishchapter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't care yet... ?

Rape is a minority of cases so stop trying to use the exception. I've already stated that that is another story along with life threating situations that endanger the mother - That's obviously just common sense. Reading comprehension is important

Please try that rhetoric on someone else. It's getting old and you're making yourself look really foolish lmao.

I guess you actually don't like to read and want to continue being a victim and not taking accountability because every single abortion is a rape victim.

But now I'm not black because I'm not going with the woke crowd. Gotcha. So I should just follow blindly - it really be your own ppl keeping you down. You're what is wrong with the black community.

My voice means nothing, your voice means nothing. At the end of the day this is a debate subreddit, if you can't handle it then shut up. If I'm not mistaken - it's you upset at these laws not me LOL so pls join your friends at the protests. Please continue letting women know that they have no control and informed choices of their body reproducing before conception and they should take no extra prevention measures... Because of course, their body their choice but it's not their choice when they get pregnant.

For the last and final time, go educate yourself. It's getting embarrassing for you.

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My voice means something because I live in AMERICA and have the power to vote. My state is blue and I will make sure it stays blue by voting. I also plan on doing work in my community by signing other black people up to vote.

I addressed your bullshit 1% rape claim already. If rapes are UNREPORTED then you have no idea what the true number is. This is AMERICA. Your “exceptions” don’t mean anything. You don’t get to pick and choose who has the privilege or not. You’re Pro-life so stand on your Pro-life bullshit. That’s how selfish you are. The way women you don’t know live their lives is more important to you than rape victims having no access to abortion because they’re “just 1%”. What a nasty mindset to have. Towards black women and girls at that.

Let me reiterate that your voice and opinion doesn’t matter. You have no voting or political power. Go protest outside of the clinics in Canada.

[–]catfishchapter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]pearllovespink0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your entire argument makes zero sense dear. You’re screaming that women need to use contraceptives which we already do. Totally ignoring the fact the BC fails. Would you like me to pull up the failure rates? The only true effective form of BC is abstinence.

You’re also ignoring that 60% of abortions are from married women. Most married people don’t use condoms. You should use your head and think logically here. Because it’s clearly not clicking for you.

Let me just add that contraceptives are only free at places like Planned Parenthood which is shutting its doors in many places due to the ban. Guess who this will effect the most? BLACK Women.

Are you aware that the Supreme Court is attempting to take contraceptives away next? You’re arguing about something they’re already planning to get rid of.

Pro-lifers pick and choose what facts they want to hear. Y’all are the most dishonest and disingenuous people on the planet. If you cared about these kids so much you would be filling out adoption paperwork and I don’t see y’all doing shit.

You also don’t care if these decisions impact innocent people like rape victims and medical pregnancies because they’re a “small minority” according to you. So because they’re not the majority means they don’t matter. These women will die giving birth and young girls will be walking around carrying a 45 year old man’s baby. All in the name of Pro-life. How selfish and disgusting.

You’re an embarrassment. No one black should be Pro-life when we have so many problems in our communities regarding health care, family planning, and the amount of women that end up sexually assaulted. We have the most pregnancy complications and deaths. Along with young girls being raped and sexually assaulted at alarming rates.

Luckily, you have no say so on what happens next. You can continue to voice your baseless opinion on Reddit from Canada.

[–]catfishchapter2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sigh, you obviously have reading comprehension issues. So let me say this one last time to get through your thick skull.

Your entire argument makes zero sense dear. You’re screaming that women need to use contraceptives which we already do.

My entire argument is that women need to be even more careful and protect themselves from pregnancy. If that means doubling up on contraceptives then so be it. If we know that BC fails why are women using ONLY that and still surprised when they get pregnant? Sounds pretty idiotic to me, allowing a guy to go in full raw and come inside of you ALL because you're on BC that you KNOW doesn't fully protect you. Why not ask him to also wear a condom to protect yourself even more?

And like I said before the stats showed 54% weren't using any form and 46% were not using it correctly.

You’re also ignoring that 60% of abortions are from married women. Most married people don’t use condoms. You should use your head and think logically here. Because it’s clearly not clicking for you

Then that's their choice for their pleasure LOL. Your body your choice right? So youre advocating for people who CHOSE to continue fucking without a condom KNOWING that their going to get pregnant to continue doing so, so they can have more.... Abortions? Got it lol.

You also don’t care if these decisions impact innocent people like rape victims and medical pregnancies because they’re a “small minority” according to you.

Again who said I don't care? Who said that "every single women with life in them must carry it" because it wasn't me. I've said countless times they should be exceptions and it's unfortunate that they are not. That is something that needs to be dealt with, on an individual basis and hopefully they go can come to Canada to get it done. But you're too busy lumping me into a box to actually have common sense.

You’re an embarrassment. No one black should be Pro-life when we have so many problems in our communities

No sweetie, you are. Black women in america are some of the most educated women yet also have the highest abortion rate and the highest single motherhood rate. It's a sad time to be black in the states and the only way to fix that is to fix the mindset of the community, which means taking accountability and making more logic based decisions.

But you are again, what's wrong with the community since you can't think outside of the community. You will continue to bring everyone down with you. And I will watch, here in Canada.

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All I hear is excuses, excuses, and more excuses. Like I said before, you’re trying to force women to use your preferred method of birth control. This entire movement is about controlling women even by other pathetic women. That almost sums up your entire post lmao.

Pro-lifers don’t get to pick and choose regarding “exceptions”. What don’t you get about that? If you’re pro-life stand on your shit. That means innocent lives will be lost because of your selfish movement. Young girls will be carrying rape babies around. You will continue to get put in a box because you have no fucking control over “exceptions”. They don’t give a damn what you think should be excluded. You made your bed, now lie in it.

You don’t give a shit about black american women. Trying to hold the next woman’s vagina accountable because they weren’t “responsible” enough for your taste. Who the fuck are you or anyone else to tell women wtf to do with their own bodies. That shit is beyond weird and controlling. Especially coming from another woman, a black woman at that. This ban does African Americans no favors but you’re watching the news from Canada and reading misinformation online. Which is why you shouldn’t be speaking on shit in the first place.

I elevate the black community while you would run it straight into the ground if you talked that nonsense here. The people would run you out because they know it’s bullshit. Thankfully your words are just Reddit gibberish via Canada.

Black women bringing unwanted babies in an already broken community won’t solve shit. It will just lead to more poverty, death, and trauma. You’ve never seen the poverty stricken neighborhoods or schools. You have no idea what these women are in for. All in the name of “accountability”. What a joke. I knew there was something off with you from the start. This is why I don’t converse with non-black Americans now about these problems. You’re on the outside looking in thinking you know everything when you don’t shit. Worry about your people.

My people don’t need to come to Canada for anything. They can come to my state and get procedures done. You don’t even know the facts babbling away.

[–]catfishchapter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You poor thing. I pity you. I made no excuses but go off LOL

I don't have a "preferred" method of birth control. I'm literally talking about SAFE SEX TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM PREGNANCY. But I guess you think women are incapable of taking ownership of their bodies and they have no self control or common sense.

Im a woman who cares about other women. Making sure they take the proper steps and provisions to not end up needing an abortion. But you just want people to continue fucking like crazy and having more and more abortions. Where is your common sense. Get out of your feelings and actually think.

Last time I checked this is a subreddit for everyone. If you don't like conversing then..... Shut the fuck up already and don't reply to me? Does that make sense to you or am I forcing you what to do with your body again? 😂

Also bonus

"How to move to Canada" The phrase surged by 850 per cent in the hour after the ruling, Axios reported. The data came from a Google Trends newsletter on June 24. At the same time, it also revealed the search for “how to become a Canadian citizen” surged by 550 per cent.

Ppl want to move to Canada whether they are in blue or red states after this ruling. Hence the "come to Canada" please continue reading, it's getting worse for ya.

[–]pearllovespink1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People like you seriously don’t think. You just dont. Abortion rights is a complex topic but this part of the conversation shouldn’t be difficult to figure out. You’re struggling. I dont know whether to help you or send you on your way.

But because I’m an advocate for black women here is my last shot. My charity for today is complete.

The abortion ban effects 26 states. The United States is made up of 50 states and Washington DC.

People with the funds have no problem buying a bus, train, plane ticket to the closest state. For example, driving from Missouri to Illinois where they have access to clinics. It’s more difficult and costly from someone from Louisiana for example. They will most likely have to fly to Illinois.

Meaning this ban only effects POOR people. Middle class and even some working class Americans can afford a train or plane ticket. Poor people cannot.

Poor black Americans will make mistakes. I don’t care how much pregnancy protection you’re trying to push on anyone. I take that back actually because Americans in general will continue to make mistakes period. Black Americans cannot afford to make mistakes. We don’t have the finances to book plane tickets, hotels, and take off of work. This will only be a set back for poor people in the US who grew up with the lack of education from neglected school districts in poverty stricken neighborhoods. Here you are naively thinking their life is going to change because of an abortion ban. You’re expecting people to change their entire lives now and it’s not going to happen.

I didn’t even speak on the teenage girls who will have no where to go now. That won’t have access to planned parenthood facilities or money for a flight. They’ll end up accidentally killing themselves or throwing babies in dumpsters. The young girl who was raped by her uncle might end up having that baby if her family can’t come up with the flight money.

This is an attack on women and poor people. Privileged white people are not effected by this. Black people are at the bottom when it comes to income.

You’re unrealistic, naive, foolish, and scatterbrained to think poor people will stop having sex completely or automatically change their lifestyle because of this ban. Poor people are poor for a reason. Either due to oppression, lack of education, drugs, mental illness etc. You can’t even think of the optics of this situation because of how small minded you are.

Black Americans have no desire to move to Canada. You can continue with your ignorant babble. I’m not the controlling one. I’m not stopping you and I know who & what I’m dealing with here. Someone from the outside looking in that doesn’t know shit. You think you know more about the Black American community than me lmao. This is too easy. Pro-lifers are such sorry people. My goodness.

[–]catfishchapter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Gotcha, so instead of now fighting for more sex education to the poorer people and teaching women how to own their bodies you want them to stay poor and uneducated. And still be coddled for their poor choices so they continue making the same mistakes. You're such a saint to your community, did you know that ?

It's people like you again, keeping the black community down because any chance of change where they need to make better decisions you have a list of excuses as to why they can't and shouldn't.

Oh so you speak for all black Americans now lol they should move to Canada because USA + Black people dont = safe spaces. Look at your history and you should know that. Look at how they were treated and you should know that. But again.... You don't like change because you continue to be a victim.

So yeah I'll stay here in Canada and continue talking about blacks in America until you all smarten up and take back control. But you won't lol.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles [score hidden] 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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I am allowed to kick people out of my home, even if I initially invited them in. An accidental invitation to come into my home for an evening is not blanket permission to stay for more than half a year and mooch off the food in my fridge.

You can say you don't want to get pregnant all you want, but you still agreed to an activity where it's possible.

I can agree to get into a car where I acknowledge a car accident is possible… I’m still entitled to keep full exclusive use of my organs even after death if I so choose— I cannot be compelled to be an organ donor against my will, no matter how much I accepted the risk that I might be a good candidate.

It's like touching the hot stove and then getting surprised that you got burned.

And banning abortion is like saying people who get any kind of burn aren’t allowed the choice to use burn ointment or medical center burn treatment because they “accepted the risk, so they should pay for it”.

Except you agreed to activities where pregnancy is a possible outcome. Rape/incest excluded.

I’m always curious why people who claim abortion is murder make any exception for rape or incest. Are we allowed to murder 5 year olds if they’re the product of rape? Why do you consider some human life’s worth more than others, when you’re already comfortable treating women like incubators anyways?

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You can shoot someone for trespassing. A reasonable jury would convict you of murder if you did it 5 minutes after you said they were welcome… but if the guests had been there for 5 months, were making you sick, stealing your food, and showed signs they might become a potential threat your life at any time?

A jury would be a whole lot less likely to convict you of murder.

For comparison in Europe in a situation like that, if the person refuse we can call the authorities who will deal with the guests in a civilized way.

Yes, you can call the cops in America… it’s a bit of a tossup how that will go. For the most parts they’ll try to evict safely, but they don’t always.

And of course in this analogy, it’s not possible to evict them without killing them. They’re going to fight to the death.

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Show me that they voted for men that said they would remove their rights to abortion. Voting for someone isn't the same as voting for someone that said they would remove their rights. Show me these men said. We know they voted for them, but we don't know what they claimed. Just remember that if the govt bans birth control and emergency contraception while raising child support. 52% of men apparently voted for that shit too. No complaints. The new laws now in effect stating that men are now responsible for half of the mother's cost in pregnancy, birth, and lost wages? Men voted for that. That's your argument. That 47% of pro life is Americans, not women.

Edit: bruh, why are you down voting? You not liking the information doesn't make it not true. 51.8% of men voted. They wanted the fallout and raised taxes too.

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So here's something nobody is talking about, at least as far as I've read in the comments:

Biden and the Dems could codify Roe tomorrow. Al they have to do is kill the filibuster and then vote for whatever abortion laws they want. They'd have to get Manchin and Sinema to go along but if they can't control senators of their own party that's not my problem. I think Schumer tried smth like this but the terms were too permissive to gather enough support. If they served up smth like "first trimester" or whatever the last thing that Roe (and its, ahem, progeny) allowed, I bet it would pass. But who knows?

I suspect that the Dems WANT abortion to be an issue because otherwise they were (and still may) going to get DESTROYED in the mid-terms because the economy - which is really the only issue in American elections - has taken a giant dump of late.

Anyway, be careful out there and use protection, regardless of what state you live in.

N.B.: Go have all the abortions you want, kiddies. Your Uncle Vaz doesn't care. I was just as happy yesterday when Roe was the law of the land as I am today. Probably happier because now we're going to undergo a "general freak-out" phase in our politics of the type that I find quite tiresome, but so it goes.

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Yeah I took con law like back in 2008 I think. It was not my understanding that Congress could just enact whatever the fuck they wanted without a legal basis to do so.

As a practical matter, the federal government can do whatever it wants. Could the Court say "Oh, no, ignore 'Garcia'. Federalism isn't dead any more, so we're going to nuke your law and impose some hardcore 10th Am shit on you"? Sure, but I doubt it.

That being said it’s not my understanding that works all the time like wasn’t there some domestic violence bill and gun restrictions near schools bill that both failed?

Not familiar with the case. You have a SCOTUS that is super into due process which the gun grabbers don't give a SHIT about, and massively over-step all the time, because they don't have any actual jurisprudence beyond "We want what we want and fuck your rights." They probably could have had something reasonable if they didn't want to be such total dicks about it. I formerly lived in NY and everything about their gun permitting process is intended to fuck over gun owners. Oh, and rest assured, it still will be.

There's a similar problem with recent proposals about using the "No Fly" list as a proxy: zero due process. How do you get on the list? It can be rumors and innuendo. How do you get off it? You don't. Ever. Unless you are Ted Kennedy (he would get put on it from time to time because some IRA dude used to use his name as an alias, evidently to fuck with him) and you can simply call Tom Ridge (then DHS Secretary (or whatever)) and get yourself taken off. When it comes to guns, libs don't want to play fair and the SCOTUS is forcing them to. I'm a gun guy; the gun grabbers can fuck off to Jupiter and then keep fucking off past Saturn, Neptune, etc., past Pluto and then they can fuck off to where nobody has ever fucked off to before. Sorry, not sorry, or whatever the kids say.

No I wasn’t aware Schumer has tried this before. That is interesting.

You'd think he'd have put in the exception that Collins wanted and then it's 50-50 and Harris breaks the tie. More here. If they put in what most of Europe has - abortions until 4 months and then no abortions - plus no, you can't force Catholics (or others) to perform abortions they don't want to - it could get passed fairly easily. Maybe he he wants to look like he fought fiercely - like Harvard - and then lost, so he can keep it as an election issue - which may not go the way one might think based on who the loudest voices are.

Modern liberals are totalitarians - they want to force everyone else to live by their rules when they could themselves, in NY and CA and the other blue states, and just leave everyone else the fuck alone, but no, we have to accept their rules...for the "greater good" or some bullshit. No thank you.

I just figured if there was gonna be something next on the federal level wrt abortion it was gonna be some push to ban it so no states can choose to leave it legal.

There could be, but I doubt it - but hey, I've been wrong before. Enough GOPers would be against to prevent it from happening based on federalism, believe it or not. Also the downside to passing Schumer's law in some form is the next time the GOP is in charge of everything - hint: sooner than you think - they could just repeal it.

I'd be perfectly happy with what Europe has but the difficulty is that the same people who would go for that would also take my guns and jack my taxes up to the moon. Fuck, no. Both of those things are far more important to me than whether or not some woman I don't know who lives in Missi-bama can get an elective abortion. Don't live in Missi-bama. And don't let some loser creampie you.

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I struggle to get along with conservative women, because they would shame me for not being a traditional male

Pretty much, yeah. I'm in my 20s, and at work I met this attractive 40-year-old woman who said she had relationship problems but was interested in getting to know me. We had a conversation during which I asked her about her difficulties in keeping relationships.

This woman sits there and tells me that her previous relationship didn't work out because she believed that the man should handle the financial matters while the woman took care of the home and provided sex for the man rather than the relationship being a mutual experience.

We ended up disagreeing and we no longer talk. These women have me baffled. They are archaic. It seems as though more men support women's rights than women nowadays man. I know that's likely not true but jfc why is that anecdote so prevalent for me

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Wealthy immigrants have the same access to abortion that wealthy natives do. If you're referring to illegals than they aren't owed any rights except to be treated fairly as they're rapidly deported. Abortion is, of course, not a true right, but that's besides the point.

Crime has actually gone down in Poland over the years while abortion has been increasingly restricted to the point of being almost totally banned. There are numerous other safe countries where abortion is banned, such as Malta. Guns won't drive down crime rates but they obviously are a useful tool to protect yourself from crime. (As an aside, both Poland & Malta allow purchase & ownership of AR-15s & other "assault weapons", as well as high-capacity magazines. Polish gun owners are even entitled to concealed carry.)

Abortion is an area where America increasingly demonstrates moral superiority to China or Russia.

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Also, I want to point out Christianity is at the foundation of the pro-life movement. It’s been. Life beginning at conception has been evangelical talking point since the 50s and Catholics probably forever. So safe to say these state bans are religious laws (which violates the religious freedom of others btw)

Does it genuinely sound sensical to subject people to laws rooted in something that we don’t have evidence even exist? Does that sound like freedom?

We’re told god wants all of this and it’s the objective truth from people who say the earth is 2000 years old when we know for fact, it’s millions old. We’re basing laws on these people’s storybook. It’s like bizarro world or something, it’s not logical.

We’re talking about jailing doctors over make-believe. Criminalizing science and healthcare in 2022

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Appreciate the Latin translation. It is not germain to this discussion. Use whatever word you choose. It's still not a baby. It is not a child. Children are born. Babies are born.

The term "unborn baby" is an oxymoron. It's politically charged speech used to evoke a false premise. No meaningful discussion can be had once that phrase is introduced. This little tete a tete is proof of that.

I want to let you know that I believe that you are fighting to protect babies from being murdered. I acknowledge that reality for you. It must be very difficult to live in a world where you believe that this is acceptable and I understand why you would do everything you can to prevent it. I would fight like hell to protect the lives of innocent newborns, infants, and the post-born in general. Women are among that group. I believe the rights of the host supercede any rights that you would afford to the preborn. Because it's happening inside of their own body.

[–]SylvestorTalone1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It is very germain to the discussion, you appear to be trying to use the term foetus to create a fundamental difference that does not exist. I know your side likes to use euphemisms and clinical language to conceal the fundmental horror of what is occuring. It's no different to how white slaveowners ''just knew'' that these aren't humans, they're niggers.

There is nothing in the definition of baby that says you need to be born, you have invented that out of whole cloth. There is not some kind of fundamental transformation that takes place during birth that transforms a not-baby into a baby. It's the same thing it was the day before.

I want to let you know that I understand that your position makes perfect sense, given your metaphysical assumptions. If there is no absolute law, then we can just call something different and doing such does make it so, to whatever level of meaningfulness is left at that point. There is no bottom line to murder actually being wrong, and nothing sacred about human life. If it can be ended quickly, and cleanly, with a minimum of mess and fuss, then you may very well decide that the convenience who can benefit from it is in some way 'worth it'.

Unfortunately for you, a Holy God exists, and your obfuscatory wordplay will avail you naught on Judgement Day.

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Honestly a rape abortion happens in less than 1% of cases so its pretty irrelevant in this ruling

1) cite your sources

2) false accusations rarely happen but that hasnt stopped MRA apes from screaming incessantly to the sky about it

3) I get that wouldnt care about rape unless you got your tight asshole bloodied against your will by a violent male who loved the look of your flesh and your sense of self stripped for life. But consider this. If you were one of these victims, your argument is since its rare for this to happen, then it doesnt fucking matter that it happened to you.

4) Your gender is filled with monsters. We have to enforce laws to force them to stop touching children. To stop them from violating us. And the law CANNOT KEEP UP because so many break it. So no. Youre wrong. Its not rare. Just say you hate women and go. I promise you, its a common take.

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No, the answer (at least part of it) is to have women be more responsible with their reproductive systems. If they put themselves in less situations where an unwanted baby might result, then there would be less unwanted babies, and less need for abortions.

Men handled this responsibility for them all throughout history for the most part, in many cases going a bit overboard (see Islam). Now it seems we've over-corrected in the opposite direction, where women have been given unilateral control over the responsibility and a deluge of unwanted babies that need to be killed has become the result.

Now that they may have to take the responsibility that they demanded and were granted unilateral control over a little bit more seriously (which isn't even really true given how easily they'll still have access to birth control and abortions), their reaction has been to throw hysterical fits of apoplectic rage.

It's not a good look, and if you ask me it's indicative of a pendulum swung too far.

[–]TermAggravating80431 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Teflon081912 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So what about rape? What about when girls are raped through incest?

<1% of abortions.

You go realise that over 60% of women that have abortions are women that already have children, they’ve made the decision they can’t afford another child but your gonna force them too?

If they don't want more kids then why didn't the husband get a vasectomy, or the wife get her tubes tied? Or be on birth control? Or him wear a condom? Or any combination of all of the above?

Women demanded the same rights as men, that included the right NOT to be forced into domestic life through unwanted pregnancies

Actually they demanded more. And they got them. Now that we're moving in the direction of them actually having the same rights as men, we get the apoplectic rage fits. Again though, you won't be "forced into domestic life" if you don't put yourself in a position to be. That's the responsibility women need to start taking that I'm talking about.

If they can’t get the father it’ll come from the state, watch your taxes about to go through the roof.

I personally have plenty of tax shelters, so that won't really affect me. But again you're jumping right to the conclusion that women will fail spectacularly in being responsible enough with their bodies to not cause taxes to go through the roof. That's the problem.

[–]Willow-girl1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I had stepchildren. Spent the last year working in a school. When the discussion turned to RvW possibly being overturned, I remember looking at the precious little ones in the lunchroom and getting this sick feeling thinking that probably some of their mothers had considered aborting them in the womb.

I can't wrap my head around the idea that when someone shoots up a grade school, we practically have a national day of mourning -- and rightfully so -- yet each of those children could have had his or her life snuffed out just a few years earlier, by his or her own mother, and very few people would have cared.

A fetus is just a child in an earlier stage of development. And it's not like we don't have good birth control methods available today -- more and better than we did pre-RvW -- or adoption in the cases where the mother doesn't want to or isn't equipped to raise her child.

I was pro-choice for decades, reflexively, because I was a progressive at the time and it was part-and-parcel of being progressive, I guess. I never really gave it much though. Then one day it occurred to me how out-of-step it was with the rest of my values. I'd mourn when a cow on the dairy lost its pregnancy; I won't even spay a pregnant cat. I'll catch spiders and release them outside instead of squishing them. Respecting life as I do, recognizing its intrinsic value, how could I ever be in favor of murdering unborn babies?

The idea that millions of American women will take to the streets to protest for the right to kill their children just seems ghastly to me. Grotesque. We should be fighting to make our country and the world a better place for those children instead, IMO.

[–]TermAggravating80431 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Willow-girl2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A pregnancy only lasts 9 months and the baby can be put up for adoption if the mother isn't equipped to raise it. Yeah, it is a sacrifice, and yes there are health risks associated with pregnancy and delivery, but you are in essence saving a human life by bringing that child to term rather than snuffing it out.

And yes I have walked in those shoes. At 20 I was single, working part-time as a waitress and living through a northern Michigan winter in a singlewide trailer heated only with space heaters, when I carelessly got pregnant. And even though I didn't want kids, and had never wanted kids, I couldn't bring myself to have an abortion. I knew to the depths of my soul that it would only be another mistake, not a solution to my predicament.

I think, instead of crusading for the right to kill our children, we ought to be figuring out ways to help women either prevent pregnancy altogether or be able to bring their babies into the world without undue hardship. Imagine if every dollar of campaign contributions that will be happily vacuumed up by pro-choice political candidates were instead spent on birth control or supporting pregnant women. I want a better society, not a more murderous one, lol.

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Based on Southern states’ historical behavior with states rights, you should expect another Dred Scott-like decision, not increased leniency.

For those unfamiliar, the Dred Scott decision overruled northern states own states rights and required them to enforce southern states’ slave laws. States Rights is always a lie— they will always look for every way to force other states to follow their state laws.

And many of those states’ trigger bills do not allow exceptions for rape or incest, and a few have no exception for the life of the mother either. They’ve had ample time to decide what they wanted their laws to be— they’re not chuffed at the idea of little girls being forced to give birth. They’ll just call the 10 year old rape victim a worthless slut and tell her the excruciating pain of birth is a blessing she doesn’t deserve.

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And none of those things are 100% prevention like abortion or abstinence. The end. For people who want reassurance, your answer means nothing. They are allowed, and indeed encouraged by many people, to remain abstinent. Abstinence is absolutely the goal of people banning abortion.

Sex acts without PIV are likely to turn into sex acts with PIV— people aren’t iron-willed, especially if they’re a little buzzed.

And it’s not infinitesimally small, it’s simply very small over the course of one year of use— the stats don’t look quite as great over a decade or more. Plus, not all women can use the pill or the IUD, and typical usage for condoms is not so impressive.

And when birth control fails, those exceptions are still people who have to deal with a huge life changing, potentially life-threatening problem.

Your chance of having a rare medical condition also very small, but we don’t brush off people with rare medical conditions as just “eh, who cares” exceptions to the rule. They still deserve the best medical treatment we have available for them.

[–]Willow-girl1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]badgersonice1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For nearly 50 years, we've had a culture in which people could afford to be careless with birth control because they had abortion as a backstop.

Most women don’t want to have an abortion in the first place— it’s expensive and time consuming for any woman, and miserable and emotionally horrible for many. The women who are careless and dumb about birth control without an abortion ban will not be less so when abortion is outlawed because they’re the kind of people who think “oh it’ll never happen to me”.

Plus, outlawing abortion doesn’t eliminate birth control failures or rape or medical issues or birth defects. Im sure you know it’s practically impossible to prove rape in court, so almost all pregnant rape victims get the wonderful “blessing” of making sure that rape will completely change their life every day in a way they never wanted for the rest of their life. And I’m sure the husbands of married rape victims and fathers or rape-victim daughters will just love taking care of some rapists by-blow, too.

We know that making LARCS freely available greatly reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies; we already tried it in Colorado.

I support this wholeheartedly. But unfortunately, most powerful abortion opponents do not. Clarence Thomas, for example, has already declared that all contraception is on his hit list.

You are correct that we're probably not going to have a 100% success rate, but we can get the numbers down for sure. Heck, they've already been declining! Nobody really WANTS to have an abortion, I don't think.

Exactly. This is why I think banning abortion is stupid. If you give women easier ways to avoid pregnancy, they’ll overwhelmingly choose those. Bans, on the other hand, cause a lot of additional pain— doctors become afraid to perform life-saving abortions for fear of some dumb judge deciding the procedure wasn’t quite necessary enough; rape and incest victims cannot prove their case in time to have the abortion (they likely won’t even be able to get a trial date before the baby is born, based on how little our country cares about the right to a speedy trial), more women will seek illegal unsafe abortions and die, more women will lose their jobs and need welfare because they can’t actually afford a child, more single moms, and likely more delinquent children.

[–]Willow-girl1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The women who are careless and dumb about birth control without an abortion ban will not be less so when abortion is outlawed because they’re the kind of people who think “oh it’ll never happen to me”.

I'm not so sure about that. In my own case, I never thought "it will never happen;" I simply figured I'd get an abortion if it happened (although when it DID happen, I couldn't bring myself to go through with an abortion). Had abortion not been an option at the outset, I would have been much more careful. And after that one screw-up, I used contraceptives religiously for the next 30 years.

And I’m sure the husbands of married rape victims and fathers or rape-victim daughters will just love taking care of some rapists by-blow, too.

Adoption is an option, you know. I actually knew a man who had been conceived under those circumstances; he was adopted and raised by his maternal aunt and uncle and turned out just fine. I also knew a man (he was my ex-husband's cousin) who had been the product of father-daughter incest, and he also grew up to be a normal functioning adult.

Bans, on the other hand ...(etc.)

You are much more pessimistic than I am. I think people (not just women) will take birth control a lot more seriously without abortion as a backstop and we'll actually see the (atrociously high) rate of unintended pregnancies fall. There may also be other positive side effects -- for instance, the kind of men who like to prey on teenaged girls may be more reluctant to have full-on intercourse with them when they can no longer hustle them off to PP with no questions asked in the event they fall pregnant.

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You don't have to donate organs to save your born children.

Maybe you could think about it like a "duty to rescue"? You created the situation that the fetus is in and, therefore, you’re required to provide reasonable assistance.
You didn’t cause the organ failure of the born child and donating an organ is unreasonable.

Now we’d just have to determine if the damage that a pregnancy and birth could do to your body is an acceptable price to save the life of the fetus.

Again, this is giving a fetus more rights then a born person. It's immoral.

Do different people even need to have exactly the same amount of rights? If there’s a fundamental biological difference between men and women, then some rights wouldn’t apply to men/women.
A man can never have the right to abortion because he can’t get pregnant. All else equal, that would give women more rights than men.

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Human: a bipedal primate mammal Life: ,,From the viewpoint of contemporary biology, a proper understanding of the minimal properties required for a system to be considered alive requires the recognition of the evolutionary processes that led to the system itself (Cleland and Chyba 2002). Besides that, important characteristics of life, such as whole system-, ecosystem-, and information-defined characteristics, have been included in definitions of life only recently. In fact, that the interconnections between living and non-living components of a primordial evolving system are decisive for the period of transition from chemical to biological evolution (Zhuravlev, Y. 2006) and thus it is believed that the appearance of life was marked by the transition from purely chemical reactions to autonomous, reproducing entities capable of evolving by natural selection (Cleland and Chyba 2002). Furthermore, Tirard agrees that the attempts to define life must distinguish between the simplest possible life form and more complex organisms such as plants and animals. He says that definitions of life must be open and not limited by our current state of knowledge and that perhaps what is required is more a framework than a precise definition. However, answers to the question of what is life will be provided by different specialists working on different problems and from diverse perspectives, ranking from the origin of life on Earth, to synthetic biology, to the search for extraterrestrial life (Tirard, S. 2010).”

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Lol there’s nothing arbitrary about that. To be clear, it IS forcing someone to give birth against their will. Like that’s just a fact. If a person wants to terminate a pregnancy but they aren’t allowed to, they are giving birth against their will. That’s not my perspective, that’s what you’re proposing.

Who’s to say which POV is more valid? I would say the POV of the person that actually HAS a pov - the woman.

Morality is subjective.

I would argue it’s immoral to bring a child into the world that’s unloved and unwanted, that’s set up from day 1 to have a traumatic, difficult life. I would say it’s immoral to bring a child into the world when the parents are addicted to drugs or alcohol. It’s immoral to bring a child into the world only to face extreme poverty and food insecurity. It’s immoral to bring a child into an abusive home. It’s immoral to bring a child into the world with severe birth defects.

You all want to act as though life is always this precious gift. 50,000 Americans died by suicide in 2020. Life is difficult, and children born into home that would have chosen not to have them are generally going to have extremely difficult lives. Saving all these fetuses is not a happily ever after. For a lot of them, it will be the beginning of a nightmare. So spare me the moral high ground.

[–]mmm_try_again123453 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Morality is subjective.

If that is true, then there is no reason that anyone needs to follow or respect any of this (below) if they personally disagree with it. That’s my entire point.

I would argue it’s immoral to bring a child into the world that’s unloved and unwanted, that’s set up from day 1 to have a traumatic, difficult life. I would say it’s immoral to bring a child into the world when the parents are addicted to drugs or alcohol. It’s immoral to bring a child into the world only to face extreme poverty and food insecurity. It’s immoral to bring a child into an abusive home. It’s immoral to bring a child into the world with severe birth defects.

Also, yes life is hard. Pro lifers are not saying that isn’t the case. We’re saying that ‘this child’s life might be hard’ is not a justification to end their life. There are many children who had rough childhoods, gone through foster care, etc...that have grown up and have been fortunate to improve their situations and are glad they were given a chance. Some that I know personally. They are glad they were born.

[–]thetacobitch1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That was my whole point babe. I think all of that is immoral, while other people are screaming that not doing those things in these situation is immoral. It’s grey, it’s subjective, it’s complex. Every situation is different, so no we don’t need some universal law that dictates what everyone should do here because it’s not that black and white.

That’s awesome that their life turned around. There are also people who wish they hadn’t been born. Two sides to every coin.

Also, I say all of this as someone who easily could not exist because of abortion. My father was born to a 17 year old in an abusive relationship. Her family wanted her to abort, but she chose to have it and then they do adoption. Am I happy I’m here? Of course! Would it matter if I wasn’t? No, I just simply wouldn’t have existed.

Either way, it was her choice. She CHOSE adoption. I would never in a million years want to put my own blood and family through the pain and trauma of forced birth to allow my existence. In my opinion, that’s really fucked up and selfish. I would never expect that from my own mother, and I don’t expect it from any woman.

My mom graciously allowed me to use her body to come into this world. I was not entitled to that. I do not own my mother.

Anyone who thinks they do is super weird and honestly disrespectful imo.

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Then you’re also a murderer for using birth control. That fertilized egg is merely a toddler in “early stages of development,” waiting to attach to your uterus, grow and be born.

I saw you make this argument earlier in other comments and thought a lot about it. This is a very interesting and tough one.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I read that the hormones in the pill stop or reduce ovulation, thicken the cervical mucus to keep sperm from entering the uterus and thin the lining of the uterus so that a fertilized egg is less likely to attach.

Implantation failures are also not uncommon and happen naturally. That’s kind of a malfunction of your body and not your fault.

So if you take the pill long before having sex, all you’re doing is modifying your body in a way that makes it worse at getting pregnant. That should be allowed since you own your body and can alter it in any way you like.

In the case of an abortion, you’re actively destroying the fertilized egg.

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I’m including unwanted children in there. If the parents don’t want them is a valid reason to abort.

My grandparents should’ve been allowed to abort my dad. Neither of them wanted him or to stay together, but they were young and pressured into a shotgun marriage. Had one more kid, but by time my dad was 6 y/o his dad walked out on them. Both of my grandparents were horribly abusive, and my dad inherited that abusive parenting style. He became abusive when my mom was done having kids after my sister and I were born, and he didn’t have a son (plus worsening mental illness with age that he probably developed due to a severely abusive childhood). By the time I was a teenager, he told me I was just a bill to him.

My dad’s example happens to unwanted children that are born anyway more than people think. And please don’t say adoption - considering how miserable pregnancy can be for women that want their children, I’m not going to ask women that don’t want the pregnancy to go through that.

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[–]webernicke2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How is fault not relevant?

In every other case of a "non-sentient organism" being expelled from a person's body, it's a case of one organism (say, a parasite or bacterium) invading another organism's body. It's a clear case of one organism defending itself from the violation of another. And, even in the case that someone invited the organism into thier body (say, knowingly drinking tainted water) most non-sentient organisms aren’t given protected rights on the basis that they are not human.

None of that applies to an embryo or fetus. It didn't invade the mother's body. The mother created it when she had sex. An abortion is not about the mother defending the right to her body from being infringed upon by an invader...it's the opposite. The mother is infringing upon the right of the fetus to it's own body and life.

And regardless of whether you consider the fetus a "person" (since you keep studiously referring to it as a "non-sentient organism") it is definitely human, and basing rights on humanity instead of personhood is how we get nice things like the abolition of slavery so...

[–]Neither_Works1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]webernicke2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nothing that happened prior to being pregnant is relevant. Your "knowingly drinking tainted water" example supports this, so thank you for that.

The drinking tainted water example does not support this. I mentioned it explicitly to point out that drinking tainted water does have a fault, but that fault is ignored because parasites and other dangerous microbes are not human and so are not afforded the right to live equal to or above humans.

So following this logic in the case of an abortion, fault is only ignored if you accept the argument that a fetus should not be afforded rights. The justification for denying a parasite rights is that it is not human. What's the justification for denying a human fetus?

If you truly believe fault is relevant, it means you want women to face some kind of consequence for their actions.

Is it a bad thing to expect people to face the consequences of thier actions?

Fault would imply the embryo is owed something. But it's not because it cannot see, hear, taste, feel, know, or experience anything. It's non-sentient, which means that from its perspective (which it doesn't have), it doesn't exist.

Fault doesn't imply or require sentience. Fault is simple cause and effect. I knock a glass off the table. It breaks. The glass is broken and it's my fault. Doesn't mean the glass is sentient or I necessarily owe anyone anything.

The slavery argument is truly insane because black people have sentience.

So do a lot of nonhuman animals, but we "enslave" kill and eat them routinely. Sentience was never the issue. Humanity is.

Further, if you prefer, having sex with someone in a terminally vegetative state (i.e. arguably not sentient per your definition) is considered rape, and in some places (prepare for squick) sex with corpses is also illegal. Violations of human rights not "sentient" rights. Having sex with a human-shaped toy or doll is not rape.

Further, it's not clear when a human baby develops sentience however you may want to define it. I have heard arguments that this may not occur until well after a baby is born (like years after) If "sentience" should be dividing line for when a human is given rights, then most laws protecting very young children are arguably far too generous.

[–]Neither_Works1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The glass is broken and it's my fault. Doesn't mean the glass is sentient or I necessarily owe anyone anything.

You got it.

"Thus, 18 to 25 weeks is considered the earliest stage at which the lower boundary of sentience could be placed. At this stage of development, however, there is little evidence for the central processing of somatosensory information." (link)

You're right, it's not clear when a fetus develops sentience. What is clear is that it is definitely not before 18 weeks.

Necrophiliacs have sex with corpses to reach orgasm. Abortions are used by people who don't want to be pregnant for 9 months and know that terminating the life of something that doesn't have sentience pales in comparison to becoming a mother when one doesn't want to be.

You're holding up the value of "human life" in a blindly dogmatic, un-nuanced way. There are states with "right to die" laws. There's killing in self defense. There's mercy killing. There's pulling the plug on someone with little hope of coming out of a coma because paying the medical bills isn't feasible anymore. There's even the trolley problem lol. You're arguing conceptually that humans have a right to life, but it doesn't fit neatly in the real world in every situation.

[–]webernicke2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You got it.

So to be clear, a pregnancy is, in fact, absolutely the fault of one or both of the parents on the basis that thier actions directly caused the pregnancy. We're on the same page about that then?

That said, while fault doesn't necessarily mean you owe something, it very often does. For example if the broken glass belongs to someone else. Or if a man gets a woman pregnant, she keeps the child, and demands child support.

So why should a woman be the only one to get special exemption from facing the consequences of her actions that are her fault and affected someone else, and worse, be empowered to cause further damages?

You're right, it's not clear when a fetus develops sentience. What is clear is that it is definitely not before 18 weeks.

Sure, except you're avoiding the point that sentience is a red herring. Sentience is both heavily subjective and not at all the basis of legal rights and protections.

Again, there are plenty of very sentient beings that have few to no rights at all, and in very recent history this included many humans. On the other hand, there are plenty inanimate, non-sentient things that are, in fact, extended legal protections (National Parks and World Heritage Sites, for example.) Sentience is not a consistent basis for rights and/or protections.

Rights to living things are most consistently extended on the basis of humanity...literally "Human Rights."

Necrophiliacs have sex with corpses to reach orgasm. A

Orgasms are not illegal. Necrophilia is not illegal because of orgasms.

know that terminating the life of something that doesn't have sentience pales in comparison to becoming a mother when one doesn't want to be.

This is not a fact.

This is a highly subjective opinion that many people have flip-flopped on repeatedly for all of history.

There are states with "right to die" laws. There's killing in self defense. There's mercy killing. There's pulling the plug on someone with little hope of coming out of a coma because paying the medical bills isn't feasible anymore.

None of these cases are based on the concept of sentience.

Killing in self-defense is based on the idea that people should be able to defend themselves from others and justification for it usually requires that you demonstrate both intent/aggression and and imminent mortal threat. You don't get to kill someone in self defense if they accidentally bump into you or lightly pinch you intentionally.

Your focus on the non-sentience of a fetus thoroughly makes the intent piece impossible to establish. Oops. The imminent mortal threat piece is already allowed for in many cases and is quite far restricted from the kind of unilateral right to abortions that pro-choicers are asking for.

Both mercy killing and pulling the plug are based on survivability/viability, not sentience. If there is a reasonable chance that a nonresponsive person will recover, you don't get to pull the plug/mercy kill them anyway just because they can't say no. Also, the legality of mercy killing a conscious person depends on thier wishes, not the simple fact of thier responsiveness.

A fetus is an entirely different situation. Left alone, the fetus will probably survive and develop sentience, if nothing goes wrong. A person being considered for mercy killing or plug pulling will probably not regain sentience, die and (if unlucky) suffer if left alone.

You're holding up the value of "human life" in a blindly dogmatic, un-nuanced way.

No, I'm holding up the value of human life as the more empirical, more consistent, more logical, and more precedented basis by which rights are assigned, compared to the subjective, inconsistent, illogical and unprecedented basis of sentience that you are trying to push.

I mean, I get it. Establishing that fetuses are just clumps of nothing is easier than convincing people that the convenience of a pregnant woman is worth more than the life of her unborn child. But at a certain point, maybe you should just own it instead of flailing around, trying to avoid the obvious conclusion.

Like, I eat meat. I enjoy meat. I'm probably going to eat metric fuckton of meat this weekend. And that means I am (inderectly, but still) contributing to the violent deaths of a lot of animals. PETA can come by and tell me as much and show me video of the kinds of sad factory farms that my cheeseburger lived in. And if I have any integrity, I can either acknowledge the truth and admit that I value the life of a cow less than my tastebuds. I don't have to beat myself up about it, but it's the truth.

Or I can acknowledge the truth, reconsider my behavior and start grabbing veggie burgers instead. What I shouldn't do is invent some arbitrary standard about how the cow's life doesn't really matter because its intelligence doesn't approach some convenient level that I've picked to avoid any guilt about its death.

Life is hard, unfair and the cow doesn't happen to be a member of the apex species on the planet, so it dies.

People might have more respect for pro-choicers if they just straight owned the reality of thier position instead of trying to mealy-mouth it. Just saying.

[–]Neither_Works1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's nothing morally compromising to "own up to." The only way something would be morally compromising would be if it negatively affected someone. An abortion does not do that. The fetus hasn't been negatively affected; it doesn't exist. It'd exist if you waited 18 to 25 weeks, maybe. Nobody's rights are being violated cause it doesn't have them. Nobody feels pain or suffering because it literally cannot.

The reason fault still doesn't matter is that fault doesn't give a fetus sentience. That's what I've been getting at this whole time. It wouldn't matter if the woman chose to be pregnant then changed her mind. It's irrelevant to the discussion because it's not what you believe the problem is. You believe ending human life is wrong, even if it's non-sentient. I don't. That's where our disagreement is.

No, I'm holding up the value of human life as the more empirical, more consistent, more logical, and more precedented basis by which rights are assigned

Yeah, simplifying things will always make them more consistent and empirical because there's less to think about. It's way easier than comprehending nuance. Saying life begins at conception makes things way easier for a debate lord, but does jack all for people in the real world.

Conservative Christians were against right to die and assisted suicide laws because they believe life is sacred. They didn't make room for nuance. Which is dumb.

[–]webernicke1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's nothing morally compromising to "own up to." The only waysomething would be morally compromising would be if it negativelyaffected someone.

The fetus dies. That's a pretty negative effect on the fetus.

The fetus hasn't been negatively affected; it doesn't exist. It'd exist if you waited 18 to 25 weeks, maybe.

If the fetus doesn't exist then what is the actual function of an abortion? Is an abortion just a doctor messing about with a woman's empty womb?

Nobody's rights are being violated cause it doesn't have them. Nobody feels pain or suffering because it literally cannot.

Nobody's rights are being violated simply because the idea that unborn human offspring should have rights is still up for debate. Whether or not pain or suffering is felt is irrelevant to whether or not rights have been violated.

The reason fault still doesn't matter is that fault doesn't give a fetus sentience. That's what I've been getting at this whole time.

The fact that fault does not equate to sentience of a fetus is a totally irrelevant response the question of whether a fetus gets to have rights. Because, again, sentience is no basis for who gets to have rights in the first place. Which is what I have been getting at this whole time.

You believe ending human life is wrong, even if it's non-sentient. I don't. That's where our disagreement is.

Rather, you want believe that sentience is the dividing line between who gets to have rights to their own body and who does not. I have pointed out many times that this is demonstrably not the case.

Yeah, simplifying things will always make them more consistent andempirical because there's less to think about. It's way easier thancomprehending nuance.

Indeed. Which is why, rather than agreeing with a lot of pro-life arguments that abortions should be restricted to a nuanced, heavily scrutinized, case-by-case exception that should only be resorted to with extreme justification (such as mortal danger to the mother,) pro-lifers seem to want to make abortion a unilateral right lacking in any nuance, that women can turn to for any reason whatsoever.

[–]Neither_Works1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay cool, looks like we're both on the same page about fault not mattering to the discussion, and that our only disagreement is whether a fetus has a right to life over a mother's right to not have to give birth.

From your point of view, sentience doesn't matter at all (correct me if I'm wrong). You believe a human life has a right to life.

Luckily, you don't believe that to be universally true. You understand the exceptions. Coma patient, self-defense, right-to-die, etc. So you believe a human life has a right to life, with some exceptions. Abortion isn't one of those exceptions for you.

Personally, I value a person's life over human life. I base a person on two questions:

-Was it sentient in the past?

-Could it be sentient in the future?

I believe you need two yes's for someone to be a person, or at least, to be treated as one.

You and me: yes, yes

A coma patient: yes, yes

A corpse: yes, no

A fetus: no, yes

You seem to value potential. The potential of a human life to become sentient and one day have a body that it is aware of. You value this more than the mother, the only sentient being in the equation, who would be terminating the growth of something in her body that she does not want to spend time and resources creating.

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Fun fact: If you, a fully grown human being, were reliant on my body for your survival, and I said: "no more. Let them die, but I want out." then they would respect my decision in all 50 states. This is called bodily autonomy, and for some reason we have decided women do not deserve it, as punishment for having sex. This ain't about "fetus rights" because quite frankly, right now they are enjoying extra rights that you and I don't have.

If you, a fully grown human being, were parent or guardian to a child of 6 months old and you said "No more. Let them die, but I want out." You would be promptly arrested and condemned and the situation would be considered a national tragedy. This is called neglect and for some reason people think that it's okay when the child "doesn't look human" so it doesn't deserve to live.

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[–]Mrs_Drgree1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Debatable. Depends on how you define human, which is hard to do without bringing religion into it.

It's not really debatable and there is a non-religious based definition of human.

1) Living - meaning displays all the markers of cellular life including uptake of nutrients from the environment, metabolizing biological compounds, excreting waste products, gas exchange, responding to external stimuli, replicating, and motility.

2) Human - containing a full set of human DNA on 23 pairs of chromosomes.

And even if they are human who is to say they deserve more rights than the fully formed person acting as an incubator?

Well, once you establish that the fetus is it's own human life, it no longer becomes about the mothers bodily autonomy since she is free to do what she wants to her own body, but the fetus is no longer considered a part of her body.

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[–]Extremiditty1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well it goes against your human definition. Most cellular processes handled by machines and medications and unable to respond to stimuli. Scientifically and philosophically we really don’t have a good metric for humanity. My god we can’t even figure out how to classify viruses.

As for brain dead or severely disabled people with no awareness I said sacrificing FOR them. Should I be forced to give them a kidney if one of theirs starts failing and I’m a match? Lower my quality of life for someone else without any choice about my body and health?

Should someone brain dead have their organs harvested with no advanced directive for the greater good of other still living people? Or because they are gray area still human it shouldn’t be allowed (it isn’t allowed)? You can’t even harvest organs from a corpse if they aren’t donors, and think of all the people that would save. We respect the autonomy of a dead person more than we do a living woman.

But this is semantics and it’s hard to truly pin down what life is and how precious each person considers it. Response to stimuli isn’t thinking or processing. Babies don’t start forming long term memories for years or have theory of mind until about 12-18 months (another hallmark of sentience).

And all of this completely ignores the social implications and the drain on already shitty social services. Why would you want an unwanted baby brought into the world in the first place. Or one with a whole host of disabilities. Or in the case of first trimester abortion, a fetus who may not even end up being viable in the first place. Spontaneous abortions happen in 1 in 5 pregnancies.

Why is anyone who is not the woman’s doctor giving input into her specific medical care? There is no reason for it and it is a violation of the right to privacy and HIPAA laws. I’m in medical school. It would completely derail my career and what I have to offer societally, I would resent that baby (no child deserves that shit), I may end up with long term health issues. It could ruin my life, my babies life, and take another needed doctor from the workforce. It would keep me from having a healthy, happy child later on.

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[–]therealcosmicnebula8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All the people gloating won't be gloating when the birth rate starts to fall. Men also won't be gloating when paternity is assumed. And child support rape gets more prevelant.

You can get rid of abortion. But you can't make people date, have sex, or have children.

The governments of South Korea and Japan have been trying to institute all kinds of policies to encourage people to reproduce.

All have failed.

Yall are actually under the impression women wi go back to getting married? They won't. They will opt out completely. Enjoy their hobbies and their lives.

You cannot force women to choose you. And to need a law to do it for you goes to show how utterly undesirable most men are.

When abortion disappears, so will casual sex, so will sex and and so will relationships between men and women.

This isn't pre 1950. Human beings have all kinds of other hobbies and interests to occupy their time that dating and family might have filled.

Information and options are too widespread in today's world for traditionalism to every regain the strong hold it once held pre-technology.

I was reading a book on evolution. And the author suggests that many social movements took place in the 1950s and beyond because of the technology like radios, TV, newspapers etc being widespread enough for people to mobilize.

Humans have always been dissatisfied.

The romanticized notion of the past as this perfect time is stupid. People didn't have the technology to complain or to revolt. So they endured.

We have it now.

So there will never be a reason to go back. Women can Just stop having sex. And stop all non-platonic dealings with men, and watch the world fall apart.

I, for one, am all for it

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[–]therealcosmicnebula4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men are the ones who go crazy without sex. Not women.

Women have historically been oppressed sexually for thousands of years. We made it to 2022 anyway.

Men are already more depressed and suicidal than ever. Men are the ones complaining about the dating market. Men are the ones depressed due to having no female relationships.

It's not women. Never has been women.

Changing this law means nothing, as I've said. Traditionalism can never take hold again because it can never force women to be wives and mothers again.

Women can earn their own money. Live in their own houses. Live their own lives.

In the past, men ensured women couldn't do any of these things. Which is the only reason Men got chosen.

So changing abortion laws will do nothing to increase nuclear family and child bearing.

It will merely reduce sex for women AND men. And the birthrate.

[–]Commercial-Engineer36 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Urbantexasguy3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This isn't the time to dig up every historical grievance, that women have had against men. All that is going to do is alienate men's support.

I realize that you're angry and emotional right now, but painting all men with the same brush, and blaming ANY man for anything any male ancestor may have done, is NOT the answer. Calm down.

As I said in my post near this one, I have a daughter. I want her to have all the choices in life, that any man has, when it comes to education, career and family. That includes the right to control her pregnancy. I know my fellow men well enough to know, however, that a bunch of male bashing, doesn't accomplish anything.

Men are pretty desensitized to male bashing at this point, we've been getting it for 30 years, but it still bothers a lot of guys. Stop it. Focus on the issues.

[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This isn't the time to dig up every historical grievance, that women have had against men. All that is going to do is alienate men's support.

No. Don't deflect. Answer my question.

I realize that you're angry and emotional right now, but painting all men with the same brush, and blaming ANY man for anything any male ancestor may have done, is NOT the answer. Calm down.

Not angry. Not emotional. I'm asking you a question about a topic on a site where people exchange opinions.

Answer my question. Stop deflecting.

As I said in my post near this one, I have a daughter. I want her to have all the choices in life, that any man has, when it comes to education, career and family. That includes the right to control her pregnancy. I know my fellow men well enough to know, however, that a bunch of male bashing, doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm not bashing men by recalling history.

Is it also called bashing white people by bringing up slavery and Jim Crow? 🤔

Men are pretty desensitized to male bashing at this point, we've been getting it for 30 years, but it still bothers a lot of guys. Stop it. Focus on the issues.

Again with the deflecting. 🤦‍♀️

Mansphere dudes are always talking about how logical men are. But yall always bent in debate and just start deflecting.

Always.

[–]Wide-Illustrator29061 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. They didn't. Stop acting like people's motives are noble. They rarely are. They are almost always self serving.

Men oppressed women for the simple fact that if they didn't they wouldn't have guaranteed access to women.

they knew women were only attracted to a small minority of men

In other species, unattractive males die out.

We are the only species that have systematically allowed undesired males to reproduce for thousands of years.

Even today, a lot of men just aren't very attractive. And I'm not talking physically either.

Personality, mannerisms, voice, character, aura etc. Just aren't attractive at all. And I mean that objectively. And I find myself perplexed all these dudes that are just....blah? I don't know how to explain it.

But it's like, damn how are so many of yall like this.

[–]Wide-Illustrator29060 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. They didn't. Stop acting like people's motives are noble. They rarely are. They are almost always self serving.

They're motives were self serving and certainly weren't noble but it did help establish the society we have today. Without monogamous relationships no society can truly prosper and grow.

Men oppressed women for the simple fact that if they didn't they wouldn't have guaranteed access to women.

I think there was more to it than that but having access to women was definitely at the top of the list.

In other species, unattractive males die out.

We are the only species that have systematically allowed undesired males to reproduce for thousands of years.

From a genetic standpoint, if we were to procreate simply to create the best genetic material, unattractive women would have to stop procreating as well.

Even today, a lot of men just aren't very attractive. And I'm not talking physically either.

I disagree, I think most of women's issues in the dating world come from not being able to find men they are really physically and sexually attracted to. Good looking men are few and far between. I personally have alot of friends and co workers who are smart, in shape, funny, outgoing, successful, well traveled and like me facially average . None of us have issues getting dates but guys like us are literally everywhere so it's not like we are in high demand.

Personality, mannerisms, voice, character, aura etc. Just aren't attractive at all. And I mean that objectively. And I find myself perplexed all these dudes that are just....blah? I don't know how to explain it.

Alot of guys are sheltered and haven't developed their personal style or social skills. So many guys are raised to just be attractive from a provisional standpoint and nothing else. I think a lot of guys misjudge just how important confidence and competence are to women and never really improve in these aspects.

[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

They're motives were self serving and certainly weren't noble but it did help establish the society we have today.

People say that like the world in 2022 is the best timeline.

Or that this is the best version of the world. According to whom?

I think there was more to it than that but having acces to women was definitely at the top of the list.

That's the only reason.

Look at the modern dating world. Men are literally suicidal because not even one woman wants them.

From a genetic standpoint, if we were to procreate simply to create the best genetic material, unattractive women would have to stop procreating as well.

No attractive women wouldn't. Because women are, for some reason, deemed as more generally more attractive than women deem men.

If women had it their way, and got to choose exactly the man they wanted, or live alone as spinster I wonder what the modern man would look like today.

I disagree, I think most of women's issues in the dating world come from not being able to find men they are really physically and sexually attracted to. Good looking men are few and far between. I personally have alot of friends and co workers who are smart, in shape, funny, outgoing, successful, well traveled and like me facially average . None of us have issues getting dates but guys like us are literally everywhere so it's not like we are in high demand.

I swear I'm not one to judge appearance. Most people just look normal to me. I'm not enamored by beauty. Never have been. Be as good looking as you want, I won't treat you differently.

But even I find a lot of men just blah. Like I said, I can't put my finger on it.

Too genetic, maybe?

Alot of guys are sheltered and haven't developed their personal style or social skills. So many guys are raised to just be attractive from a provisional standpoint and nothing else. I think a lot of guys misjudge just how important confidence and competence are to women and never really improve in these aspects.

How are some men, raised in the exact same environment as others, able to escape this influence of being sheltered and underdeveloped to be men with confidence and just naturally good with women?

What the difference between the makeup of those two kinds of men?

[–]Wide-Illustrator29061 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People say that like the world in 2022 is the best timeline.

I know today is a dark day for a lot of women but the U.S.A is still a pretty great place to live for women compared to a lot of places. Take it from a guy that's traveled to 24 countries.

Look at the modern dating world. Men are literally suicidal because not even one woman wants them.

That's understandable in a way. Our value as men in society comes from what we can provide and the amount of women we can attract. If a guy is rich but a virgin, he's gonna be looked at as a loser by most men and women because he's socially inept.

No attractive women wouldn't. Because women are, for some reason, deemed as more generally more attractive than women deem men.

Women are more physically appealing than men as a whole but there are still women who are unattractive. If these unattractive women procreate with good looking men they will still pass on some of their undesirable features onto their daughters or God forbid their sons.

If women had it their way, and got to choose exactly the man they wanted, or live alone as spinster I wonder what the modern man would look like today.

He'd look even worse than he does today because most men cannot compete in terms of looks with really good looking guys. Most would simply give up

I swear I'm not one to judge appearance. Most people just look normal to me. I'm not enamored by beauty. Never have been. Be as good looking as you want, I won't treat you differently.

Your definitely an outlier but I don't think it's unusual to treat people you find attractive differently than people you do not.

How are some men, raised in the exact same environment as others, able to escape this influence of being sheltered and underdeveloped to be men with confidence and just naturally good with women?

What the difference between the makeup of those two kinds of men?

I can't speak for other men but for me, playing football in high school and college really helped me break out of my shell. It wasn't like I was introverted but I wasn't the most outgoing person growing up either. Having people kind of know who I was before we actually met made it alot easier to talk to them.

As far as guys who are naturally good with women, it's literally impossible to find out why. It's like trying to find out why someone is naturally good at sports or math. Some people are just born with skills and traits that set them apart from the rest of society .

[–]max_peenor6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's probably not the best example to use given that only very rarely can cows survive in the wild on their own.

Non domesticated animals do just fine in the wild. Cows are the product of human interference. So you're right, maybe not the best example.

But you get my point.

Men didn't oppress women for the benefit of women.

It was most definitely for the benefit of men.

That's fine. Seems like we were already headed in that direction before Roe vs Wade was overturned anyway.

Yes. But even now, there's no reason to risk pregnancy. A lot of casual sex hinged on abortion. Now that it's gone in some places that well will dry up.

And men are gonna be mad about that.

I, for one, will never sleep with a man again in a world where I couldn't get an abortion easily if it had come to that.

But I've also been celibate without a problem for years. So I know I have the resolve.

[–]Teflon081914 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A lot of casual sex hinged on abortion. Now that it's gone in some places that well will dry up.

It'll take banning birth control before that happens. The overwhelming majority of women who participate in casual sex have never needed an abortion because they use birth control. I don't doubt that there will be a lot of threats of swearing off sex flying around for awhile, but unless they ban birth control, I don't expect much follow through on it.

And men are gonna be mad about that.

Assuming it comes to pass then yeah, and I think we might see some crazy advancements in the realm of "virtual sex" because of it. All of the pieces have already been developed really. Someone just needs to put them all together. Whoever makes the right call investing in the company that does it the best is going to be very wealthy, let me tell you...

I, for one, will never sleep with a man again

But I've also been celibate without a problem for years.

That second sentence kinda removed all of the bite from the first one. Granted you're just one woman.

Interesting times ahead.

[–]Wide-Illustrator29062 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]therealcosmicnebula-1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women aren't threatening anything. It's pointing out reality.

As I've said, look at East Asia.

You thought it was bad, it's about to get way worse. Way worse.

The men who were sexless will continue to be sexless.

And the men who had some access to sex occasionally will become sexless as well.

Some of these incels honestly think this will cause an increase of sexless men getting picked.

And I'm saying is women would much rather opt out.

Why pick a man when you have your own job, own money, own house, own car etc?

There's literally zero benefit to having a man around for most women due to lack of reproductive rights. Sex isn't worth it. And most men aren't good at sex anyway. And most women don't have orgasms anyway.

So logically, sex for what purpose? To risk your life and get saddled with a baby?

Nahhhhhhh.

[–]Bandit1744 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Bandit1745 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's funny how me saying "men" to mean "men, in generally" had somehow been translated to mean Bandi174.

My point is that the men who were already having lots of sex were probably already pro-choice.

The men who are pro-life or indifferent like myself likely weren't having lots of casual sex either way so why should we care about a sex strike? The sexless rates were already rising year over year so for at least 30% of men there is no difference in their sex lives regardless of whether you implement a sex strike.

So who exactly are you punishing with the sex strike? Who is it meant to influence? The liberal pro-choice men that already agreed with you?

The potential for higher taxes needed to support an increase in wellfare babbies is a much more convincing argument imo.

Men have never MGTOW-ed though. Every MGTOW space is 100% about women still. That part always made me laugh.

Men do want women more than women want men so MGTOW will probably always have some complaining about women involved. Feel free to suggest a better acronym if you have one. It has to be catchy tho.

That said, point is men will do their version of going their own way and women can do theirs. Both versions can become more normalized.

[–]LackOf_Empathy8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]therealcosmicnebula4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Woman's happiness has been at an all-time low. Most women obtain happiness from having children not having careers.

Happiness is not at an all time low. Go back 1000 years and poll our ancestors.

Their ves we're short, miserable and then they died. They weren't happy. Suffering was normalized for them.

People are more unhappy because we are constantly exposed to what we don't have. How poor we are. How stupid we are. FOMO is real.

No one gives a fuck about kids. Traditionalism will NEVER take over modern society again. People are.too informed. And have too many options.

People will still have sex (its biology), the only difference is it'll be more responsible.

Japan and Korea beg to differ.

They are just as human as you and me. And yet sex is at an all time low. People just don't give a fuck anymore and have chosen to just enjoy other aspects of life.

We're Not monkeys.

We are not slaves to our urges. Human beings can choose to opt out. And I think they will choose to opt out

Why would a person choose repression? When they can choose agency over themselves by simply refusing to participate.

You have to think to the end. You can change the law. But you cannot put a free bird soaring through the sky back into a cage.

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[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is not one good non-self serving reason to have a child. Period.

If you want to have one, have one. But don't act like you're doing it for anyone else but you.

That's what gets me. Is that people can't do some shit and just admit it's for a shitty reason.

You can have kids. Like having kids. But also admit that having kids is 100% selfish as fuck. And technically uncessary.

But it amazes me how people lack in the ability to criticize their own behavior.

It's arrogant to think others don't think about these issues especially when your argument isn't well thought out and doesn't use any citations whatsoever

I didn't say they don't see them. I said they don't admit to them. They don't spend time thinking about them. Because it brings them down.

And why do I have to use citations?

Yall kill me thinking that science has proven everything. Science regularly proves itself wrong.

What is right today is wrong AF a year from now. Especially in things such as the meaning of life. No-one can prove anything. Because it is not a tangible thing. It is merely an idea and concept that exists only in our minds.

Why would I need to cite another person's opinion to prove my own opinion? How dumb is that? I can think life is meaningless if I want. I don't need permission to hold that opinion. And I don't need it to be cosigned by by Nietzsche himself.

Everything remains open to interpretation by any and everyone. No one owns thought, opinion, or interpretation of life.

So even attempting to claim that someone can is stupid.

That said, it's good that you're at least trying. I recommend you Google solipsism, nihilism, and learn more about psychology and sociology.

All of these things are schools or thought and schools of study. Philosophy has been found to be both lacking, as well as outright wrong time and time again.

The same with sociology and psychology. Studies constantly being proven wrong. Constantly being updated.

But people love clinging to "evidence" for shit that is difficult to measure and leave large margins of error.

[–]Admirable_Bass88671 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Please READ what YOU have written in comments before responding.

Most of what you're writing I can agree with ... to an extent. But, it's trite.

Stop worrying about what other people are thinking and refine your own thoughts.

Your thinking is all over the place. That may be a good thing if you can organize your thoughts.

Are you smart enough to provide your own counter arguments?

Just go through your cliche' statements one at a time and try your best to argue an opposing point of view.

That exercise will increase your emotional intelligence. EQ is what is missing from your entire line of thinking.

(To help you out, imagine someone truly believes God exists. What would they say in response to your statements?) My guess is that you're young, a bit contrarian, self-centered, coddled, a bit of contempt for your parents, and just haven't had time to think beyond your "profound" counter-culture insights.

Push yourself to learn WHY you think the way you do (by studying psychological patterns) and why others think the way they do.

Finally, return to debating others to discover the things you overlooked when debating yourself.

Think of it like playing chess. Even Magnus can be beaten.

The only way you'll get better is to challenge YOURSELF (and each of your thoughts). Please copy this exchange and read it back 5 - 10 years from now.

One thing that helped me was finding forums where people already had long debates about these issues and looking carefully for the best arguments.

It's "hard" to do because people tend to repeat trite thoughts like you have done here. However, if you keep reading long enough you'll find the gems!

[–]therealcosmicnebula1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Stop worrying about what other people are thinking and refine your own thoughts.

🤔

Your thinking is all over the place. That may be a good thing if you can organize your thoughts.

Is this literally not you worry about what other people are thinking and how they're thinking it?

Because it sounds exactly that way to me.

Imagine trying to police what someone else is allowed to think and how they're allowed to think it. 🙄

Are you smart enough to provide your own counter arguments?

You're saying this like you're someone that people have to prove something to.

Who are you? The gatekeeper of what, sir?

Whether I can counter my own arguements or not, what is it to you, specifically?

Again, trying to create a standards of validity for something that cannot be definitively measured.

Just go through your cliche' statements one at a time and try your best to argue an opposing point of view.

That exercise will increase your emotional intelligence. EQ is what is missing from your entire line of thinking.

Again, who are you set a standard for what is cliche, what someone is allowed to think, how they're allowed to think it and if it's emotionally intelligent or not?

You like proof, right? Credentials?

Okay, tell me your credentials that qualify you to be a expert on the matter.

Because last time I checked the original person had an opinion. I disagreed. He disagreed. And I disagreed again.

Then here you come to determine, all by yourself, that some how my opinion is shallow, wrong, cliche, all because you don't agree with how I've said it.

How stupid.

It's the fake intellectualism, for me.

(To help you out, imagine someone truly believes God exists. What would they say in response to your statements?) My guess is that you're young, a bit contrarian, self-centered, coddled, a bit of contempt for your parents, and just haven't had time to think beyond your "profound" counter-culture insights.

Again, tell me what credentials and expertise you possess to think that someone needs to qualify themselves to the standard you've created.

I'm betting the answer is: none.

The only way you'll get better is to challenge YOURSELF (and each of your thoughts). Please copy this exchange and read it back 5 - 10 years from now.

One thing that helped me was finding forums where people already had long debates about these issues and looking carefully for the best arguments.

It's "hard" to do because people tend to repeat trite thoughts like you have done here. However, if you keep reading long enough you'll find the gems!

This isn't your manner of thinking.

Who did you steal this from?

This sounds like something a much smarter person wrote in a book or a post that you read and here you are passing it off as if it was your own original thought process when it's not.

Something about it seems out of place. Like I said, faux intellectualism has a...smell. it smells fake.

Which tells me that you are just another sheep whose mind is easily infiltrated and influenced by any rhetoric that you read.

You lack tremendously in the ability to fortify your mind against the pollution of another person's point of view.

And that is something I have never been able to relate to, personally.

[–]Admirable_Bass88671 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You raise some good points!

To answer most of them, I'm just referring to basic rules related to formal debate, and storytelling or giving a speech, and logical fallacies. Please review the respective guidelines. I took the time to determine whether or not I agreed with each rule. For example, I reject "appeal to nature" as a logical fallacy.

My goal in criticizing your comments is really to help you. The pattern in your comments has me speculating that you are willing and able to improve (over the coming years).

With regard to my "smart" idea about finding forums debating subjects and looking for the best arguments ... it is my original idea ... kinda.

The patterns of my thinking can be described as 90% ENTP and Enneagram 5w6. If you read enough about those patterns, you'll discover that it's natural to seek out contrarian points of view and debate (as a way of learning).

I feel like you may have a young mind that, coupled with a more organized and formal approach, you'll become pretty good at communicating and defending your thoughts.

For example, when you make an assertion that people only have children for selfish reasons, it's important to support that statement .... and consider the fact that your parents are included. ;)

I really hope that helps.

[–]Admirable_Bass88671 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I want to add one more thing I found.

After you get all your facts right with citations, understand that most people will still shut down and disregard your line of thinking if it conflicts with their feelings.

When I debate politics, for example, I list short concise statements and provide links to the legislation as well as studies to show the impact of it.

You will probably experience that if you're THAT well-prepared, people will only be able to respond with logical fallacies or simply shut down.

My point is that "winning" a debate is often a fool's errand.

I typically stop after offering to bet money. When they back down from the bet, I consider that to be as far as I can go (or "win").

At that point, I believe I have communicated clearly enough and they see the point of view, and understand it is logical (and well supported with citations).

Then, I have just enough EQ to shut up and move on (even though I may feel a strong urge to keep debating).

Next, I look for more efficient ways to articulate the point. Can I use fewer words? For example, I'm pretty quick when it comes to teaching or debating nihilism.

Finally, I love having everything in writing with a datetime stamp in the past. It's easier to be able to point to the written word to prove the idea and objection have already been thought about.

And it helps prevent people from repeatedly raising points that have already been discussed.

Anyway, I hope this helps you and that it leads to more intellectual discussions for you where you discover the most profound thoughts on various subjects!

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Are they not getting rid of contraception and gay marriage next to??

No, they aren't.

The only justice who entertained the idea was Thomas. In an opinion no one else joined he suggested revisiting the precedents in question, not because of the policy outcome, but because they were based on a doctrinal concept he doesn't like (Substantive Due Process). Thomas believes that Substantive Due Process only exists because back in the 30s, progressive-dominated courts greatly weakened the Privileges And Immunities Clause. Thomas has been complaining about this his entire career.

That said, Thomas is the only Justice who entertained the notion, no one joined him, both Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have either sided with gay rights or favorably cited the pro-gay-marriage rulings, and even a majority of Republicans these days are okay with same-sex marriage (and I can assure you there is one hell of a supermajority in favor of contraceptive use).

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recession with Obama

By what metrics were we in a recession in the Obama era?

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F640%2Fcpsprodpb%2F134FC%2Fproduction%2F_115200197_dow.jones2-nc.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-45827430&tbnid=z0keGVt-nCoXBM&vet=12ahUKEwj4vqOuzdH4AhWyQUIHHZwCDMUQMygBegUIARCFAQ..i&docid=D0ihY8o9kPT14M&w=2666&h=2083&q=economy%20under%20obama&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwj4vqOuzdH4AhWyQUIHHZwCDMUQMygBegUIARCFAQ

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FUS%2FChart_UnemploymentRatesObamaTrump_v01_sd_1610748432454_hpEmbed_1x1_992.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2FBusiness%2Ftrumps-economic-legacy%2Fstory%3Fid%3D74760051&tbnid=BM0_2GN-YxU6fM&vet=12ahUKEwj4vqOuzdH4AhWyQUIHHZwCDMUQMygPegUIARChAQ..i&docid=ecfnT3I0XYKwPM&w=992&h=992&q=economy%20under%20obama&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwj4vqOuzdH4AhWyQUIHHZwCDMUQMygPegUIARChAQ

[–]max_peenor2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Ppdebatesomental0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

“Labor Force Participation by Age The national labor force participation rate for the total population ages 16 and over decreased from 64.4% in 2010 to 63.6% in 2019.

Despite the overall dip, the labor force participation rate went up across all age groups from 2010 to 2019:

Ages 16 to 19: 37.7% to 39.9%. Ages 20 to 64: 77.5% to 78.3%. Ages 65 to 74: 24.8% to 26.8%. Ages 75 and older: 5.7% to 7.2%. This apparent discrepancy in the rates can be explained by the sea change in the age distribution of the U.S. population.

Effect of Aging on Labor Force From 2010-2019, as the U.S. economy improved, the percentage of the population ages 65 and older grew nationally (from 13.1% to 16.5%) and in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.”

This is from the census..so labor force participation decrease is tied closer to the aging population than to a bad economy

[–]max_peenor1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Right, exactly, lol. …. like I posted the respective share of participation at ALL ages has increased….and the percentage of the population in the 65 and older age group has increased by approximately 3%. People who were once in the around 3/4 participation group of under 65 are now in the over 65 where only about 1/4 of them work. Their percentage share of the population has increased and the percentage of people in peak working years has decreased.

As the over 65 share of the population increased from 13 to 16%..the under 65 share has gone from 87% to 84%. So even if labor participation increases at all ages, there is still a decrease in total population participation percentage

So if more of our country is now in retirement years, that is somehow Obama’s fault? …..thanks Obama…

[–]max_peenor1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not according to the recent census data I have already posted. 2010 census to 2019. Labor participation rate. Ages 16 to 19: 37.7% to 39.9%. up over 2%

And over 65 is absolutely not, and doesn’t need to be, “the single biggest cadre” for percentages in age brackets to be up, and total percentages down.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241488/population-of-the-us-by-sex-and-age/

If you have more granular data, I’d be willing to look, but again, absolutely nothing about these labor participation numbers suggests an “Obama recession”. Labor participation rates across all ages, except for those older than 55, have been inching down since a peak in 2000.

https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2011/12/labor-force-participation-rate-by-age.html

The biggest divide in participation rate is between rural and urban/ high school educated and college educated.

Fwiw, my h and I, most of my friends and my two siblings are no longer in the labor force and not 65 or older either. And it certainly has absolutely nothing to do with “a bad economy“, quite the opposite.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/06/why-did-labor-force-participation-rate-decline-when-economy-was-good.html

[–]max_peenor1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

“Inching “ down =/= “recession”. It was inching down even before 2008. Look at the chart again. The biggest drop was between 2000 and 2005 for younger workers, and 2000 was anomaly in the US, an all time high.

Manufacturing in the US has made a tremendous rebound since 2008 in terms of dollars Manufacturing Employment? Not so much https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Manufacturing_GDP_%28nominal_and_real%29_and_Manufacturing_Employment.png

Trade deficits held steady …more stable than in the run up to 2008

https://www.statista.com/chart/20423/monthly-us-trade-deficit-in-goods-and-services/

Again, urban employment participation rates, college educated participation rates have been outperforming rural and non college educated rates. We saw manufacturers come back, they just don’t need employees. This is a structural “problem” caused by automation and technology. I put problem in quotation, that’s a whole separate issue.

I live in rural America. I am fully aware of the systemic problems, trust me.

[–]max_peenor1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Now you're wondering why the GDP number when up? I already told you. American companies were moving their actual manufacturing out of the country

GDP =/= GNP. Outsourced production by US companies is not included in GDP

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-gross-national-product-3305847

American companies were moving their actual manufacturing out of the country (thus the terrible employment lag app), but they are still American companies.

“Manufacturing jobs in the United States have declined considerably over the past several decades, even as manufacturing output – the value of goods and products MANUFACTURED IN THE US – has grown strongly”.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/25/most-americans-unaware-that-as-u-s-manufacturing-jobs-have-disappeared-output-has-grown/

“ Look at the chart below: Since the recession ended in 2009, manufacturing output — the value of all the goods that U.S. factories produce, adjusted for inflation — has risen by more than 20 percent, because of a combination of “reshoring” and increased domestic demand. But manufacturing employment is up just 5 percent.”

NOTE…US FACTORY OUTPUT….

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/casselman-irt_0318-1.png?w=1150

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/manufacturing-jobs-are-never-coming-back/

Automation, not outsourcing. China is losing manufacturing jobs too ….to increased productivity and automation. Increased manufacturing production and manufacturing job loss is global. At the same time we were barely adding back factory jobs during the Obama years, China’s manufacturing employment in urban areas declined by 4 million between 2014 and 2017, only 3 years. Here is manufacturing job loss in China…..

“But CICC also shows that employment in broad manufacturing shrank by 23 million between 2015 and 2017, a decline of almost 8 million a year. So, the contraction of employment in broad manufacturing has not increased since the trade war began in July 2018. Instead it appears to have slowed.” “it is quite likely that, like other industrialized countries, China is past the peak of manufacturing employment”. https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/chinas-manufacturing-job-losses-are-not-what-they-seem

https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/30/news/economy/jobs-china-mexico-automation/index.html

http://projects.cberdata.org/reports/MfgReality.pdf

Do US companies invest in facilities overseas? Yes. Do foreign companies do the same? Invest in the US? Absolutely. Which way do you think the money flows? You can like it or not, but simply saying “Obama sent our jobs overseas” is a facile and disingenuous argument. Despite being a fan of free trade, I think we need to be more concerned about selling our water rights more than outsourcing our factories. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/fdi-countries-map.jpg

Direct foreign investment, and resourcing are only possible precisely because so little factory labor is needed. One of the biggest factory employers in my state is Kia. Do you think it’s because US labor is cheap or because the factory doesn’t use much labor compared to production? Remember Carrier?

https://www.wrtv.com/news/politics/carriers-parent-company-says-16-million-investment-will-lead-to-more-automated-jobs

Oh goodie, more psychology and sociology degrees bought with crushing debt! Given that I've ordered HR to remove all education information from all resumes entering my organization, you could imagine how my real world experience with the "educated" has been.

No one really cares what your experience has been or your anecdotal story of the Starbucks barista with a MFA. College educated have higher employment rates, higher salaries . Fact, not your opinion.

“ In 2021, median income for recent graduates reached $52,000 a year for bachelor's degree holders aged 22–27. For high school graduates the same age, median earnings are $30,000 a year. Recent college graduates also weathered the Great Recession better than their peers with a high school diploma.” Meanwhile……“ The median income of men without a secondary school diploma fell by 20% between 1990 and 2013”

What we are NOW outsourcing is IT, accounting, …..wonder why? https://controllerscouncil.org/the-growing-shortage-of-accountants-and-cpas/ But who needs college? We don’t need no education.

An extra 20k a year goes a long to paying of 100k in student loans. Over the course of a working lifetime? Getting a Bachelor's degree adds another large increase in lifetime earnings, estimates between 1.2 million to 2.8 million more than high school grads

Any unemployed hillbilly in my area would be much better off with a humanities degree and that crushing debt. They COULD attend college without crushing debt before funding for state scholarships was cut, but hey, I got a surprise state tax refund I didn’t need.

The vast majority of the unemployed in my area are physically incapable of blue collar work anyway.

https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/vmnqmn/does_our_current_attitude_towards_sex_indicate/ie61wr8/

So why do we assume that our underemployed underclass should all get humanities degrees? 28% of our doctors are foreign born, 24% of our dentists, god knows how many engineers. Or do you like going to doctors without those expensive degrees too? The rust belt and Appalachia want their wall to keep Mexicans from sneaking in and taking the jobs they can’t do anyway, with no one noticing that we actively recruit abroad for the best jobs.

Anyway, we are way off topic and discussing systemic problems in the US that have been going on for years, long before Obama, long after Trump, and while some economic metrics during the Obama era were good, some mixed, none of this adds up to an “Obama recession “.

[–]max_peenor1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

GDP =/= GNP.

Why do you keep repeating back to me what I said?

Anyway, of course it is part of GDP because the vast majority of of the supply chain is AFTER manufacturing and on shore. it just doesn't pay remotely as well nor does manufacturing sourcing advantage American workers.

the value of goods and products MANUFACTURED IN THE US

Oh goodie, bossman's stock options are going up. I fact, that's a lot of what you posted. It's super good for people that already have money, but it isn't indigenous growth of the economic. It's a mix of asset inflation and opportunity inflation.

That takes me to the other part--most countries do not invest in America. They purchase properties for the sake of draining capital. No one has bought a microprocessor company in the US and then dumped $1B into increasing their US capacity.

Oh and people have been leaving china for a while now. I know this because I've participated in it. Vietnam, Thailand and others are far more attractive and without the political bullshit. The rona and the massive floods have only been accelerating it. China is not a good example in these discussions.

[–]Ppdebatesomental1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of gdp. Direct quote from the federal reserve

“ Production of “domestic” goods often includes imported parts. So, a $30,000 domestically produced car that includes $15,000 in imported parts, increases GDP by $15,000.”

Increased outsourcing does not explain a rise in manufacturing contribution to gdp and a decreasing domestic labor force needed to produce it in any direct fashion.

Factory labor has been producing electronics in Thailand for a while, but has not increased appreciably in recent years and certainly not in the Obama era

only slightly as a percentage of the workforce by sector, there was modest gain https://www.statista.com/statistics/332341/employment-by-economic-sector-in-thailand/

which was offset by a 4% contraction in labor force participation during this time

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ceicdata.com%2Fdatapage%2Fcharts%2Fo_thailand_th-labour-force-participation-rate-modeled-ilo-estimate--of-total-population-aged-15%2F%3Ftype%3Darea%26from%3D2006-12-01%26to%3D2017-12-01%26lang%3Den&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ceicdata.com%2Fen%2Fthailand%2Flabour-force&tbnid=zEDrC0JWHK54sM&vet=12ahUKEwiF596g2uv4AhUIIt8KHTqpD_sQMygEegUIARC_AQ..i&docid=AnBa1XJY8ebaGM&w=1200&h=500&q=labor%20force%20participation%20rate%20thailand&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwiF596g2uv4AhUIIt8KHTqpD_sQMygEegUIARC_AQ

Vietnam HAS shown a good growth in manufacturing employment, which really took off in 2016, mostly from movement from China and South Korea ……..at the same time China was “losing” those jobs. I say “losing” because there are lots of low level unskilled jobs that China doesn’t need. China crossed from primarily industrial to service industry in 2013

No one has bought a microprocessor company in the US and then dumped $1B into increasing their US capacity.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/intel-announces-next-us-site-landmark-investment-ohio.html#gs.5txhfp 20 billion investment, only 3000 jobs

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/24/1058770506/samsung-says-it-will-build-17b-chip-factory-in-texas 17 billion investment, only 1800 jobs

https://www.pcmag.com/news/texas-instruments-earmarks-30b-for-new-chip-plants-in-sherman-texas 30 billion,,,,,3000 jobs

A thousand jobs here , a thousand jobs there…. Wow. /s. Nothing like the millions lost offshore, nothing like the many many more lost to automation and the millions of great jobs still being lost in medicine, research and technology right here in the US to foreign born nationals. 250,000 doctors alone, 40% of software engineers, 36% of nurses.

I mean US manufacturing is great for national security, if China decides to go in and take Taiwan, and Tsmc with it, they have the entire world by the balls.

https://www.vox.com/recode/23048906/chip-shortage-manufacturing-america-biden

52 billion invested by the US for what? Not for jobs. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/TSMC-says-U.S.-plant-construction-more-costly-than-expected. “Engineers and software designers are harder to recruit in the US compared to Taiwan”? Great. Some good construction jobs on a temporary basis, and a few thousand jobs, but they are keeping R&D in Taiwan. But let’s compete with Vietnam for those $3/hr jobs they have stolen and tell people to not go to college.

Bring back factories all you want, I think it’s great, but you still won’t bring back the unskilled jobs in numbers that will matter. And you can’t deregulate and cut taxes enough to compete with that $3 an hour in Vietnam.

We have been here before. 95% were once employed in Agriculture, now it’s 2%? Between 2000 and 2019, the overall number of STEM workers in the United States increased by 44.5 percent, from 7.5 million to more than 10.8 million . The “American worker” is going to have to bow up and fucking learn to study instead of waiting for his mindless unskilled factory job to come back.. Or don’t. According to Zip recruiter, as of Jun 30, 2022, the average annual pay for a Factory Worker in Georgia is $23,137 a year. There will be those who will simply refuse more training and education to earn more. https://www.aem.org/news/the-labor-shortage-how-to-address-one-of-manufacturings-biggest-problems He can still make his $12 bucks an hour doing mindless work in retail when his mindless factory job is gone. We actually trail behind other countries right now in automation. We haven’t even seen the real manual labor bloodbath yet. Fewer but better factory jobs will remain, but not for perpetual underclass in my area who refuse to get an education. We got a saying around here, you can’t fix stupid if it don’t broke it.

[–]max_peenor1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Increased outsourcing does not explain a rise in manufacturing contribution to gdp and a decreasing domestic labor force needed to produce it in any direct fashion.

Outsourcing is not offshoring and the former does indeed not explain any rise, since it is not done by the American company. The latter is still controlled by the American company but it is performed by foreign labor.

Oh and electronics are a bad example; they have shown the greatest productivity improvements in the last decade, mostly through automating long tedious tasks or eliminating unnecessary work. SoC has had as much an influence on labor needs as did reflow soldering did back in the earlier days.

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/24/1058770506/samsung-says-it-will-build-17b-chip-factory-in-texas 17 billion investment, only 1800 jobs

You do now that intel is an american company and no one has bought them, yes? And TI too?

52 billion invested by the US for what?

But see again you are neglecting most of the source to sale pipeline. Are the specific hands on manufacturing jobs diminished? Yes, as I explained above. But do you need all sorts of other jobs and infrastructure while and after you spend $52B on new capacity? Fuck yeah.

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[–]Mrs_Drgree1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

One is a legal person, one is not.

Well now both are legal persons.

One needs to be actively fed, the other does not.

Why does that matter?

One lives inside of another body, the other does not.

Why does that matter?

One cries when it's needs are not met, the other does not.

Why does that matter?

One can be held and cuddled by family and loved one, the other does not.

Yes it can. It's literally held inside the mother at all times. It can definitely be loved by everyone before it's born. But either way, why would that matter?

One breathes air, the other does not.

It does, but with extra steps.

An egg is not a chicken. A blueprint and a budget is not a house. Cake batter, while delicious, should not be served at a birthday party. Cause even tho the ingredients are there, it is still not functionally a cake.

Okay but we are not talking about houses or cakes. We are talking about a human life.

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[–]techr0nin2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A human is a human in every other stage of its development cycle — a baby is a human, a toddler is a human, a teenager is a human, an adult is a human, and an elderly is a human. Every human begin as a fetus, and therefore a fetus is a part of the human development cycle, and therefore a fetus is a human.

But I am okay assigning different values and rights to humans in different stages of development. A child for instance doesn’t have the same rights as an adult. And I am morally fine with terminating humans under certain conditions. For instance pulling the plug on a braindead person, euthanizing an elderly who volunteers, executing a person who has committed a heinous crime, etc. I am ok with terminating a fetus that is unwanted. But I fully acknowledge that these are arbitrary standards that we as a society assign and is subject to scrutinization, and as a democracy must agree as a majority on where we set those limits.

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That's not a counter argument for why it wouldn't follow in this case.

Lmao it's on you to show why it would. Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. I can't enumerate the infinite possible arguments that could exist and show why each of those infinite arguments are unsound.

It's not the case that everything follows unless someone has proven that it doesn't (which is impossible as I've explained)

Because getting pregnant is a natural consequence of unprotected sex...

Okay, let's run with that.

If A is a natural consequence of B then you must undertake all the obligations of A if you do B.
Pregnancy is a natural consequence of sex.

C. You undertake all the obligations of pregnancy if you have sex. (Modus ponens)

(Valid argument)

As for the soundness, why is premise 1 justified?

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How so?

Oh God, it's like a whole thing idk where to even start explaining it, but like in the 50s someone took a biological sample from someone and it became the immortal cell line HeLa. A lot of medical advancements were made (after getting majorly fucked and losing about 20 years of cellular research) because of these cells. However the woman they were taken from and her family received no credit. This caused some major backlash and now biological samples are highly highly protected. Of course laws vary from state to state and depending on what kind of biological sample you have and what they are trying to do with them but here's a sample of some of the regulations:

https://www.geneticistinc.com/blog/5-laws-that-apply-to-biorepositories

If you want to learn more about HeLa cells I really recommend the book The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. Absolutely fascinating scientific cluster-fuck.

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Listen man. Who is going to snitch on you????? Who are you going to tell that you went and got a abortion? Majority of your camp has horrible relationships with their families so maybe they would? So don’t say nothing. I ain’t going to snitch so go do it in a blue state.

The price that you and your partner should pay to get a abortion should be high. Accountability needs to be taken, that’s why child support is a thing for these dead beats. Minus all the extreme point y’all be bringing up. If you medically need one I assume that in the coming months a dem will bring a bill up (if they really cared but i think they don’t since they had 50 years to set something into stone)

And if you got raped? Whose going to snitch? Either way if I was a women and got raped. First thing I do the next day is get plan b. Topics like this are heavy but like, there are solutions for everything.

So again. Whose going to snitch? Who are you going to tell that you don’t trust? It’s all a non issue. Blue states are never going to ban it. (No matter what you say or what ONE justice said they aren’t baning plan b or other stuff)

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You never even answered my question kiddo.

Who is snitching on you? If you were to get a abortion who is going to talk to about it? Your parents? A close friend? The man that nutted in you? The doctors/nurses?

If you already don’t trust ur parents and know they are pro life. You wouldn’t tell them ( and it would be a shitty thing for parents to turn their children in).

Your best friend is your BF for a reason. And a majority of the time people are not BFs with people of the opposite mentality/political spectrum.

If the man was a fling of a ONS He wouldn’t care. Unless he was guy you been with for years and was EXCITED to be a father(happen to my manager, he was so hurt that he couldn’t decide to be a father with his long term gf-now wife and that she made the decision with out him.but he understood that it was ultimately her choice) he wouldn’t snitch. Heck make him pay for your flight tickets for being a 2 second pumper.

The doctors/nurse probably could if it was a late pregnancy abortion. But again you/a NORMAL WOMEN WITH COMMON SENSE that knows they don’t want the baby wouldn’t go see a doctor. THEY WOULD JUST GO GET A ABORTION QUICKLY AND QUIETLY if they were so scared to go to jail.

It’s all a non issue. Chances are a majority of women that are complaining haven’t even gotten a abortion. The max they ever did was plan b, and that’s cuz they were smart.

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Yes but men don’t only go to work to feed children. You are currently working now, assuming you do not have children, in order to feed yourself- as am I. Mothers should have to pay child support just as much as fathers do. For all 18 years too, if she doesn’t want responsibility just like fathers do. But the issue I’m having here is the 9 months. The 9 months that men simply never have to risk. Additionally mothers are expected, and usually do, take care of the baby for 18 *years on top of that. Most of them do not just toss the baby away after 9 months. I said earlier that if you took the risk of pain, injury, and death out of the equation- I’d agree with you entirely. In fact I technically do agree with you. My issue is about bodily autonomy (aka, no one can tell you which women to impregnate but people can tell women to force a pregnancy they don’t want). My issue isn’t about responsibility, because both parents should be on the hook for that.

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Well to be honest, if I’m choosing to have sex with you and it’s really OUR child. I would

a. Really like you and want your children anyhow. I pretty much, PERSONALLY, only have sex with men I plan to marry. b. It would be on me to figure out if you really like me and would want to stick around BEFORE having sex with you.

Which is my responsibility AGAIN. If you dump me and I want to abort because single mom life ain’t for me, I’m demonized. If I put you on the hook for child support, I’m demonized. The fact that I didn’t wait for marriage means I’m demonized, even though divorce could equally mean you being on child support and being married (and child support) isn’t necessary if you intend to be a good partner and father regardless. It all comes down to me figuring out if you’re as much as a Nice guy as your user name suggests. That’s a lot of pressure.

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Child support is not destined to be for the mother, but for the child… it is in the name. The child is a human being, breathing, with needs.

It appears that yes, women are the gatekeepers in this case, it is because we men can’t get pregnant… there are other advantages to being a biological male (for example, no periods). Too bad… nothing can be done here.

What you are advocating is similar to a blind person saying “no one should have the right to see” because they can’t… too bad, life is not fair sometimes.. women get pregnant and they decide to abort or not…

We ahouldn’t pay to support the mother, agreed, and that is not in the law. But the child, once its alive, has needs that someone has to fullfill… if the parents don’t do it then it becomes a problem of the state

[–]NiceGuyNumber44 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Child support is not destined to be for the mother, but for the child… it is in the name. The child is a human being, breathing, with needs.

Child sorry is given to the mother/caregiver.

It appears that yes, women are the gatekeepers in this case, it is because we men can’t get pregnant… there are other advantages to being a biological male (for example, no periods). Too bad… nothing can be done here.

So you think there should be legal differences between men and women?

What you are advocating is similar to a blind person saying “no one should have the right to see” because they can’t… too bad, life is not fair sometimes.. women get pregnant and they decide to abort or not…

This analogy only makes sense of men are equivalent to blind men when compared to women. Are you trying to help or hurt my argument?

We ahouldn’t pay to support the mother, agreed, and that is not in the law. But the child, once its alive, has needs that someone has to fullfill… if the parents don’t do it then it becomes a problem of the state

Currently the money goes to the mother. So when is a child considered alive?

[–]esch370 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You seem to be set up in your way of thinking but I have nothing to do right now:

Yes, the money is given to the caregiver. Do you want to be it? You can go to court and prove you are a better one… I have to concede here that there is an unfair bias towards women in court decisions… but anyways, I feel that in your argument you don’t want to be the caregiver here.
No legal difference if there is nothing to legislate… abortion should not have been illegal in the first place. It was because of religious reasons, and society is or should be past the point where it cares about that.
I didn’t get the point there. I am just saying that there are biological difference between men and women (and between human beings for that matter) that are not fair and we have to live with that.
See point one

[–]NiceGuyNumber43 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You seem to be set up in your way of thinking but I have nothing to do right now:

Yes, the money is given to the caregiver. Do you want to be it? You can go to court and prove you are a better one… I have to concede here that there is an unfair bias towards women in court decisions… but anyways, I feel that in your argument you don’t want to be the caregiver here.

Thanks.

No legal difference if there is nothing to legislate… abortion should not have been illegal in the first place. It was because of religious reasons, and society is or should be past the point where it cares about that.

Financial abortion should not have been illegal in the first place.

I didn’t get the point there. I am just saying that there are biological difference between men and women (and between human beings for that matter) that are not fair and we have to live with that.

So we're not equal?

See point one

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[–]distracted12341 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As we just barely witnessed in Ukraine, conscription for only men is alive and well. I don't know why you've decided to limit the discussion of human rights to just the US?

Because Roe v Wade is a U.S argument. If I used the state of women's rights in Afghanistan to make an argument about women's rights in the U.S that wouldn't exactly be relevant.

March in the streets over circumcision if you feel moved too.

My point is that you are using lack of bodily autonomy in specific cases to justify criminalizing women exercising bodily autonomy instead of actually trying to bring circumcision and conscription under the scope of bodily autonomy.

It sounds like you dont want to address mens rights you just want to take away womens

EDIT because i didnt address the bottom: Female genital mutilation is practiced in 30 countries legally as are plenty of other awful practices so what is your point?

[–]GoobleGobble_OneOfUs2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My point is that the left doesn't give two fucks about bodily autonomy.

It's a nice selling point for abortions, and they are going to bludgeon society over the head with it, but in true leftist fashion, it's a non issue when men's bodily autonomy is infringed upon.

If the left had any kind of consistency, they'd be burning cities down to outlaw circumcision, but since they only care about women's rights and not human rights, well, crickets I guess?

I have yet to see an argument that supports abortion that couldn't also be used to support issues men have had for decades, but again, the left doesn't care about human rights, only women's rights.

And no, telling men to organize themselves and march in the streets doesn't cut it. Ether the left cares about human rights or it doesn't. And it's quite apparent they don't.

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Here you go

Opiod epidemic

Men v women opiod and perscription drug use

Male suicide prevention center has an explanation

Male homelessness

These issues don't only affect men and therefore cannot be classified as a male specific issue. They affect men more in certain ways but the solution is not male specific. It would involve spending money on homelessness which the government REFUSES to do and ending pharmaceutical lobbying. The suicide crisis is in my opinion a result of economic decline and rising wealth gap. Women are more likely to die of prescription drug overdoses and men are more likely to die of opioids

Often men don't seek out therapy, have less of a support system, are discouraged from asking for help or expressing their emotions which leads to them being overrepresented among addicts and the homeless. - So a lot of mens issues are in the form of societal norms and social pressures and men are the ones putting up the most resistance to addressing these problems.

The answer to solving these issues is being addressed in some left wing circles. Lowering the cost of housing, raising the minimum wage, making mental health resources more widely available, ending pharmaceutical lobbying and overprescription of medication, and most importantly reducing the cost of social services like healthcare and doing homeless outreach.

This is all the domain of the left wing. And it is highly opposed by government institutions and most politicians.

[–]GoobleGobble_OneOfUs2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Space_Cats12291 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think that's the problem with these things. It always has to come down to the left and the right or men vs women and its NOT. It's a MASSIVE infringement on women's rights today, it could well be men's rights tomorrow. The point that needs to be driven home right now is that a group of people, REGARDLESS OF THEIR GENDER, have lost the right to their own body autonomy. Instead of everyone minding their own business, they had to go and ban something which has SAVED more lives than its apparently 'taken'.

We are so sorry that this issue is primarily about women, we're so sorry that this inconveniences anyone and that our outrage about our OWN right being stripped from us is annoying to you. If men were the ones who carried babies and they had the right to abortion taken away, we would all STILL be up in arms about it. Does that make sense?

What I'm trying to say is that this is only men v women because people like you from both sides are making it men v women. This is a HUMAN issue. This is about people having their rights to their own body taken from them...

If we rallied about the issues you're bringing up, which I agree are issues yes, and fought for their abolishment, would you then allow us to be mad about our right to abortion being taken away? Or would we still just be a bunch of left wing whiny whores who need to shut up about women's rights? My guess is you'd still want us to shut up.
Distracted had a good point. If you REALLY cared about the issues you brought up, then fight for them, make a call to action, but do not tell us we shouldn't fight for our own.

[–]badgersonice2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Once a woman has been supplementing or with formula, it’s not always possible for her to breastfeed her child anymore because supplementing dries up a woman’s milk. And many women struggle to produce enough milk to feed their child regardless of whether they want to or not. Even women who desperately want to feed their babies with their own breastmilk must sometimes supplement with donated milk or formula. Saying “nope, she has to do it herself of else” will simply result in some dead babies.

And you're going to sit here and tell me that it's impossible that a woman might have to breast feed her baby??

I will tell you that directly, yes, in many cases. Because it is impossible for the woman to produced enough milk for the baby. And this isn’t rare. Even if there is no formula available whatsoever, there are many women who cannot breastfeed enough or at all, no matter how desperately she wants to breastfeed her baby.

Milk doesn’t just automatically pour out of all women by the gallons, it’s triggered hormonally and by demand. Some women are unlucky and literally cannot breastfeed enough, no matter how hard they try (this happened to my sister and she was devastated).

Others cannot breastfeed successfully because they desperately need to work outside the home to make money for food and rent before the baby is a year old and able to stop drinking breastmilk/formula, and their milk dried up because breast pumps are not good enough to stimulate sufficient milk production.

Likewise, some babies fail to latch at all, and need to be fed through alternate methods— a woman’s supply is likely to dry up then too.

Still other women have had total mastectomies for medical reasons (cancer, for example).

You clearly do not know anything about breastfeeding if you think it’s as simple as conscripting women to do it.

So yes, it’s actually entirely possible that a woman wouldn’t “have” to feed her baby breastmilk because it’s literally impossible for her to do so. You cannot say all women might “have” to breastfeed their children when it is literally impossible for so many women.

Under your scenario, many babies would simply die without formula or donated breastmilk, and there’s nothing you can say that will change that.

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This is a problem.

It seems to me that feminists are the only ones who get to decide what is and isn't a violation of bodily autonomy.

"Women didn't complain, therefore it's not a violation of bodily autonomy"

That's not how definitions work.

Men suffer bodily autonomy issues all the time and feminists couldn't care less. In fact, they go to great pains to make sure that men's bodily autonomy issues aren't violations of bodily autonomy under the feminist definition of bodily autonomy.

I still maintain that forcing a man to work to pay for a child he never wanted under threat of imprisonment is a violation of bodily autonomy, but since feminists get to make the definition, and feminists hate men, they can't stand that thought and will decree that it is not, in fact, a violation of bodily autonomy. Because they said so.

[–]thetacobitch2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nope, see this is why the whole hypothetical is irrelevant. It’s not feminists deciding what is and isn’t bodily autonomy. It’s individuals, but no individual is claiming having to breastfeed their child in times of crisis infringes on that. That isn’t something that has happened.

If you think working to support a child is against bodily autonomy then I’m not confident you understand the word’s definition and concept. You could make arguments for infringing on other freedoms but bodily autonomy is not the one. The word does have a definition that you can look up lol.

Also feminists don’t hate men. I’m in a loving relationship with a man and have been for 5 years. I hate men that are comfortable oppressing women, upholding the patriarchy, and telling me that I’m obligated to be an incubator.

You cannot cry about your bodily autonomy being violated while simultaneously cheering for it to happen to women.

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Rape and reversable health issues are not an exception and I have no idea why you would think that when it’s literally mentioned everywhere. Arkansas’s abortion ban (in effect today) allows no exception for rape. It allows no exception for incest. It allows no exception for a lethal fetal condition. Missouri, Texas, Idaho, Wyoming and a few more states follow.

Under the trigger law the only time an abortion will be preformed legally, is to save the mothers life, which is flawed. This is what killed that woman in Ireland, Savita Halappanavar. Doctors waited as she died in horrible mental and physical pain because they thought her condition wasn’t serious enough to legally end the non-viable ruptured-sac pregnancy. Women will die because of this.

<34% of people report rape 50% of those will be arrested 80% of those will be prosecuted 58% of those will be convicted

7/100 cases.

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I’d hope that the middle ground we can all find is this:

Abortion should be legal in cases of rape, incest, and when it endangers the life of the person of the uterus. (in many states trigger laws i.e. Louisiana, abortions are banned even in cases of rape/incest). 14 year olds should not be giving birth to the fetus of their rapist father, regardless of his own legal fate.
Abortions will continue to happen, but many of them will be unsafe. (this will lead to Many more deaths)
This is a class based issue as well. Wealthy women in red states will still be able to have safe abortions. Poor women in red states will not, leading them to suffer the dangers of back-alley abortions, or have a surplus of children that they cannot support financially or emotionally (leading to a future of disaffected youth).

If we cannot agree on these 3 FACTS, I find your lack of humanity and objectivity to be beyond help.

If we do agree on these 3 facts, I would expect and hope that you have some compassion for the pro-choice side, if not take action to protect our reproductive rights.

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She’s saying she’s sad that your wife has to deal with your evident total lack of empathy

Lack of empathy? Wow...I flipped the genders on her and suddenly it's a lack of empathy. Where was the empathy for men who were made parents without their consent?

If the same words seem to lack empathy with the genders reversed - and y'all have a problem with it - that's called hypocrisy and sexism.

and reading comprehension, apparently.

Of course you would resort to insults. Got anything else? Because if me saying my partner respects consent is triggering, then the reading comprehension issue must be cutting both ways.

How exactly is my partner respecting consent a problem?

and it’s difficult to tell whether you’re making an absurd an hominem argument or simply cannot read.

Again, go back to the start of the thread and - using those reading comprehension skills you say we should be using - see who was playing the man and not the ball with their ad hominems.

The previous poster said I was in no risk of being made a parent against my will and I said thank god my partner respects consent.

If the idea of caring about someone you’ve never met is “virtue signalling,” for you, then you’re as bad at understanding human emotions as you are at reading paragraphs.

Uh huh. I am sure you feel morally superior typing this out on a computer or phone with parts made in a sweat shop while wearing clothes made through child labour. You want me to believe y'all genuinely care about my wife.

And again, the same person accusing me of ad hominems keeps spitting them out while pretending to care.

I don't think my wife would like the fake care of people who keep insulting her husband...

I hope you and your wife look after each other because Jesus this thread paints a grim picture.

A grim picture...because my wife respects consent.

...

Go ahead and tell me what this grim picture looks like.

Please.

I would love to show the wife what you think her life is like 🤣

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The one thing everyone seems to be missing in all of this is that what we’re seeing now is a huge political bill coming due.

For decades and decades, we’ve allowed religious organizations in the Us to enjoy non profit status and massive tax breaks, and they’ve used that to build massive wealth and amass a huge lobby that has been buying politicians since the Reagan era.

Whether or not these conservative politicians actually believe in choice doesn’t fucking matter. Whether or not the public believes in choice also doesn’t matter (and believe me, the truth is all the but the small sliver of true believer Bible beater types and people with a “use the law to punish the people I don’t like/am jealous of” fetish really don’t care about the abortion issue nearly as much as they care about other things, like the economy, jobs, etc).

What matters is the the Christian right is now the second most powerful lobby in America behind the NRA, and those politicians they bought had to pay the piper. As /u/goatismycopilot said, trump wasn’t about trump. Trump was about getting the Christian rights cronies on the SC and in congress in key states so they can advance their agenda. And abortion is the tip of the iceberg.

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Honest question:

Where is this paranoid hysteria coming from about states keeping their citizens from going to other states to get abortions? How does this even work? Do you have a source for this? What legislation is there that would allow this?

Do you people understand the concept of state sovereignty?

Do you understand that a state cannot dictate to another state what happens in that other state?

Do you understand that a state cannot keep its own citizens from going to other states?

DO you understand a state cannot keep its own citizens from moving away, leaving, and never ever coming back?

What are you people even talking about with this shit that states are going to pass laws forbidding their citizens from getting abortions in other states? States cannot fucking keep people from doing ANYTHING in other states.

What are you talking about? What is this paranoid hysterical bullshit?

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"Among the 37 areas that reported by marital status for 2011, 14.5% of all women who obtained an abortion were married and 85.5% were unmarried (Table 17). The abortion ratio was 43 abortions per 1,000 live births for married women and 373 abortions per 1,000 live births for unmarried women."

Abortion surveillance - 2011, CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6311a1.htm

"Marital Status: Most women getting abortions (83%) are unmarried; 67% have never married, and 16% are separated, divorced, or widowed. Married women are significantly less likely than unmarried women to resolve unintended pregnancies through abortion."

National Abortion Federation, "Women Who Have Abortion"

https://prochoice.org/wp-content/uploads/women_who_have_abortions.pdf

Marital status: married 14%, cohabitating 31%, never married, single 46%, previously married, single 9%

New York Times quoting Guttmacher Institute.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html

Or was it a joke/trolling that flew over my head?

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My words were "closer to equality."

It's a lot more fair than it was, and that's why women are angry. Women don't want both genders being able to opt out of parenthood or both genders being forced into parenthood. They desperately want the freedom to avoid becoming a mother while still being able to force obligations onto men for being the father.

Y'all can try to force the argument into being about LETHAL pregnancies the same way you invoke human trafficking to rant against porn. You're going straight to 11 to add legitimacy to your own personal grievances. The truth is you can't fucking stand being put on men's level. Being forced into motherhood unnerves you, but it's the fact that you might have the same reproductive rights as the gender you despise that really pisses you off.

I've been receiving women's contempt for years for saying that people shouldn't be forced to shoulder the responsibility for kids they don't choose to bring into the world. I'm afraid I can't feel a lot of sympathy because you finally know what it feels like to be told you don't deserve a choice.

[–]cloudnymphe0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My argument wasn’t just about lethal pregnancies though, that’s only one thing of all the things I listed that effect women exclusively when it comes to the risks and harm of pregnancy.

My point is that physical pregnancy is not the same thing as having to pay someone money. The argument of women being forced to carry a pregnancy being the same as men being forced to pay some money is a false equivalency.

I don’t live in an area where this law effects me, but if I did the most unnerving thing would be the fact that if I got pregnant it would likely be ectopic and I would be in pain and be bleeding from my internal organs. Personally I would not like to experience this. I care about abortion rights because I don’t want any person to have to experience any kind of bodily harm or pain. Men also deserve the right to choose not to experience this, but men don’t need this choice due to aforementioned biological reasons.

I sympathize with the issues revolving around accidental pregnancy and how it effects men, but men are not being put on women’s level at the moment and are not experiencing the same risk to their reproductive rights due to the fact that men don’t generally experience pregnancy. You should probably be grateful about this instead of trying to make an issue which effects other people about yourself.

Also when did I ever rant about porn or say that I despise men?? I’m not pissed off at men. Society and the state of our government sure, but not men specifically. Sounds like projection to me.

[–]Infammo3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My point is that physical pregnancy is not the same thing as having to pay someone money.

The physical aspect is more viscerally engaging no doubt but losing half your paycheck for almost two decades isn't the irrelevance you're pretending it is. I'd definitely rather be fat and sick for 4 months than that.

but men are not being put on women’s level at the moment

Yes, "at the moment" because it was such a pressing issue when abortion rights were guaranteed at the federal level. Men's rights were beneath your consideration before and now they're just even less important now. I'm just pointing out that this was never something any woman cared about besides expressing hostility toward the men who brought it up.

Also when did I ever rant about porn or say that I despise men?? I’m not pissed off at men. Society and the state of our government sure, but not men specifically. Sounds like projection to me.

I'm just pointing out that this is the standard tactic when discussing women's issues. The worst possible outcome becomes the entire debate to obscure what's mostly just a personal bias of one gender over the other.

[–]cloudnymphe0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn’t say the financial aspect was irrelevant, I said it’s not the equivalent. There are different arguments for the right to abortion. Some of these arguments also apply to financial abortion and some only apply to physical abortion. it’s a complicated subject and until we invent artificial wombs, there is no solution that is truly “fair” and leads to a result where men and women have equal outcomes, responsibilities, and risks for an unintended pregnancy.

It’s not necessarily hypocritical to care more about abortion rights than financial rights. If someone mainly believes in the right to abortion for body autonomy reasons then it makes sense that they focus more on something that directly threatens a person’s right to body autonomy.

I’m not necessarily anti financial abortion either but it doesn’t fall under the issue of reproductive rights in my opinion. I would describe reproductive rights as rights revolving around your reproductive system and what happens in that process in regards to your own body. Women are the ones who get pregnant so women should be able choose to not carry a pregnancy. Men should have the right for control over their own body in the reproductive process by having better access to accessible and effective birth control options and to get justice in cases of reproductive coercion.

[–]Infammo3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn’t say the financial aspect was irrelevant, I said it’s not the equivalent.

Again, "closer to equality." Forced parenthood used to be something only I had to worry about, now you and I both are under the threat of it. Even though it's got additional complications for you, our situations still have more in common now than they did yesterday.

It’s not necessarily hypocritical to care more about abortion rights than financial rights.

It's not a question of more. Women aren't just apathetic to the rights of men to not be forced into parenthood, they're adamantly against them. Women believe that men should under no circumstance be opt out of their obligations and it should her right alone to do so.

It's not really about what women can or should be discussing right now. I'm just pointing out that women are bemoaning a massive injustice against them that they've always believe was justified when applied to the opposite sex.

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[–]YetAnotherCommenter1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thomas' problem with the cases cited is his long running problem with the doctrine of Substantive Due Process. A doctrine which, by the way, was the product of the 1930s Progressives gutting the Privileges And Immunities Clause.

Even though Thomas will not get his way on Substantive Due Process, it isn't hard to imagine plenty of reasonable arguments that root the rights to marriage (including marriage for same-sex couples), contraception etc. in the Privileges And Immunities Clause.

You're operating on the assumptions that all Republicans are Crypto-Theocrats and that Thomas let the mask slip. The reality is all of the SCOTUS judges (including the liberals) are sincere, and that the issue Thomas takes with those cases isn't the policy outcome but the underlying jurisprudential reasoning.

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[–]YetAnotherCommenter2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, but that's irrelevant since there are zero Evangelicals on SCOTUS. Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh and Barrett are Catholic, Gorsuch is Episcopalian (Sotomayor is also Catholic, while Breyer and Kagan are Jewish).

Again, read Thomas' actual concurrence. He makes very clear the issue is Substantive Due Process as a doctrine.

Gorsuch, btw, has sided with gay rights in Bostock v Clayton County. And Kavanaugh has favorably cited the same-sex marriage cases.

Yes, I know some Evangelicals do believe in "Dominionism." That kind of thinking has grown even less popular after the George W Bush administration, and has basically no representation in the mainstream of the conservative legal movement (even famous Evangelical lawyers like David French are textualists/originalists). The number of Evangelical Christians is shrinking, and theologically they're becoming more liberal than their parents. Not to mention, the rate of atheists is increasing in the USA at the rate of about 1% per year.

The Third Great Awakening is over. Those culture wars are finished and dead and will not be coming back.

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My Body, My Choice?

Pro abortion people: if it's "my body, my choice" is it 100% OK for a woman to drink to excess while she is pregnant and give birth to someone with fetal alcohol syndrome? Because that fetus was just a parasite before it was born, wasn't it? And so since it was just a parasite when she was drinking so much it shouldn't have any influence on the woman's decisions if she doesn't want it to. Also she certainly shouldn't be expected to change the way she wants to live on account of a parasite and so we should not judge her at all for what she did with her own body to herself. If anything should we celebrate this act of defiance from the woman against a society that keeps telling her what to do with her body (namely, not drink alcohol during pregnancy for the health of the child). After all, it's her body, so her choice.

If the excess drinking is not OK then what happened to "my body my choice" in this case. Surely murdering the fetus is even worse than stunting it?

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[–]GrandBurdensomeCount1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Fathers don’t get a right because they’re not forced to carry a child 9 months and give childbirth.

Why? Unless you agree with the alcohol abusing mother doing nothing wrong, "my body, my choice" does not apply, so why does the right only come from carrying the child and giving childbirth? You can look at surrogacy prices and they are roughly $40,000 which gives us an idea of what the "cost" of carrying a child + giving birth are. The father generally will commit $40,000+ of time/money to their child, so they should get equal rights in this case.

Fathers don’t get a right because they’re not forced to carry a child 9 months and give childbirth.

Plus the born child does not have to carry a child 9 months and give childbirth either, however they are still wronged in the alcohol abusing case.

[–]pearllovespink2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GrandBurdensomeCount1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure.

Why do you care about my unborn fetus that can’t feel anything?

Because I believe it is human and that after 12ish weeks it can feel pain (no different than the fact I care for people in Africa suffering and donate money, or the Uighurs in China suffering etc.). This has been validated by science.

Why? How is it effecting your life in anyway?

Becuase like most humans I don't like seeing others in pain. Their suffering hurts me too indirectly by me knowing they are suffering which stops me from enjoying my life, no different to how if a baby is crying in the next room my life satisfaction is hurt not just from the sound, but also from the suffering it is experiencing because I am not a sociopath and empathise with it,

Why do you feel entitled to tell me what to do with my body?

For the same reason society feels entitled to tell pregnant women to not go on alcohol binges.

[–]pearllovespink3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That is scientifically not true. You can believe what you want but it’s not factual.

I still don’t understand this way of thinking. It’s not your child. Why do you care what I choose to do with my womb? It’s my decision that I will have to live with, not yours.

You’re not in the clinic room when it happens. Do you work for Planned Parenthood? I hope not. You are not seeing anything. Even the weirdos who sit outside of Planned Parenthood everyday don’t see anything. You watch women walk in and out all day. It doesn’t effect you at all.

A LIVING baby crying cannot be compared to cells in my stomach.

You keep trying to compare alcoholic pregnant woman to abortion and it’s not going to happen. One is carrying to full term and the other is choosing to end a pregnancy most likely before 25 weeks.

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It's actually baffling to me how everyone is going on about how women should just stop having sex if they don't want unwanted babies, but no ones talking about those women and girls who didn't want to have sex in the first place. (and I say girls to drive home the fact that CHILDREN who were raped will now have to carry a rape child to term and birth it in some states...) Women and children, who had the choice of 'refraining' from sex, taken away from them, now also have the choice of abortion stripped from them too. It's fucking disgusting. Just think about that everyone... imagine experiencing the trauma of rape and then having to endure 9 months watching your body, which was already taken advantage of, change in irreversible ways (which certain kinds of men will then use as a way to devalue you, because ew stretchmarks=baby=body-count... low value woman.) and then experience the worst physical pain giving birth to a child you never wanted. Imagine the humiliation and the shame of having to fake a smile every time someone who doesn't know the details congratulates your pregnancy, or the shame and humiliation when ever someone calls you a slut for having a child when you're only 14.What about wives stuck in abusive relationships with a husband who rapes them...? What are they to do? Should they be forced to bare yet another child which further entraps them for another 18 hellish years with their abusive husband?
But yeah, women should stop complaining, they're just being whiny whores.

I have other reasons for being pro-choice for women, but that one right there is the biggest... It makes me sick to my fucking stomach.

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[–]Reddit_User_543mil0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Neither of my grandparents wanted my dad or to be together long term - he was conceived on a date. Due to the culture at the time, a shotgun wedding followed two or three months into the pregnancy. They had a second kid two years later, and then by the time my dad was 6 y/o, his dad walked out on them and the divorce was approved because of “abandonment.” (But they reconnected later.)

My grandmother abused both him and his sister - made sure they knew they were never wanted. They just happened. My aunt rose above and has been a better mother to her kids - even her oldest son, who was unexpected. My dad passed his trauma and resentment of me and my sister onto us; now my sister never wants kids, and I’m getting help for my issues before I become a mother someday.

I’ll always live with the mental damage caused by my dad. My quality of life will always be much lower than my kids (when you consider my mental health) if I do my job right as a parent (when I have kids).

I can objectively admit that the best outcome would be for my dad to have never been born, for my grandparents to have had the option to abort. I say this knowing I wouldn’t have been born; but then my dad never would have existed to abuse my sister and I, or our mother, who would have existed even if he was aborted. He never would have hurt her.

[–]abaxeron6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you also agree that terminating a viable pregnancy that would threaten the mother's life (such as an ectopic pregnancy) is also valid then?

To my knowledge, ectopic pregnancy is non-viable by default (best-case scenario: miscarriage, fetus dies; worst case: both fetus and pregnant woman die), so I don't see any contradiction. If you mean "threaten the mother's life" in general, then it's a loaded question. ANY pregnancy threatens the mother's life. Humans are quite fragile. Going outside in the morning threatens your life. Same as staying in bed.

Unwanted pregnancies ruin lives... It ruins the unwanted child's life (unless they're lucky).

I've looked up the numbers. Yes, unwanted children tend to grow up with worse outcomes. Some of them. While the majority ends up quite fine. Better than certain other categories we aren't exactly allowed to discuss on Reddit. And by majority I mean 86 percent. ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968808006272197 )

If you think 14 percent risk of bad outcome justifies terminating a pregnancy, I can give you dozens of criteria besides "unwantedness" with the same or higher risks that would (by this logic) justify terminating pregnancies against women's will. Or we could be honest adults and admit that pro choice is a code word for "only women should do eugenics".

Nobody wins by forcing a pregnancy to completion except the talking heads that mysteriously stop caring about the fetus after it's out of its mother's womb anyway.

The "talking heads" I've listened to were quite consistent - the next step to care for children is to stop overtaxing their parents. It's not the government's job to care for children. It makes much more sense if you (rightfully) replace "government" with "psychos with nukes".

[–]GGMcThroway1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, unwanted children tend to grow up with worse outcomes. Some of them. While the majority ends up quite fine.

Your study (as much of it as I can see) only shows what percentage of the study wound up as psychiatry patients. I don't want to live wherever you do where "not a psychiatry patient" is enough for your life outcome to be considered "quite fine" (especially since it doesn't include the homeless, destitute, or dead at bare minimum).

That graph is funny, though, because it shows that LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE MAN AND ONLY CHILD that wound up as a psychiatry patient in that study was an unwanted pregnancy. EVERY SINGLE ONE. That is INSANE.

If you think 14 percent risk of bad outcome justifies terminating a pregnancy, I can give you dozens of criteria besides "unwantedness" with the same or higher risks that would (by this logic) justify terminating pregnancies against women's will.

Hold up- Why did you just bring up forced abortions out of nowhere? Forced abortions have nothing to do with this.

A 14% chance of a bad outcome (even if it were that low and the correct number from that graph) is more than enough to justify giving a woman the option to terminate her own pregnancy. I'd say that for a fetus with medical issues. I don't see why it has to be different just because the only criteria is "unwanted" on an individual basis.

Or we could be honest adults and admit that pro choice is a code word for "only women should do eugenics".

Or we could could be honest adults and not treat individual women having the ability to make individual decisions about their own individual pregnancies as if it were eugenics.

The "talking heads" I've listened to were quite consistent ... It's not the government's job to care for children.

Like I said, they stop caring about the fetus after it's out of its mother's womb. You'd think not caring for kids outside the womb would mean you wouldn't care for them inside, but apparently it's different even though babies aren't exactly autonomous beings either.

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your study (as much of it as I can see) only shows what percentage of the study wound up as psychiatry patients.

For unwanted kids, it was the only result that was both significant and persistent through time 35 years later. By all other metrics, differences between wanted and unwanted kids were less pronounced. This is the result way better than your estimate of "[unwanted pregnancy] ruins the unwanted child's life (unless they're lucky)".

EVERY SINGLE ONE. That is INSANE.

That is not insane actually; when you follow a set of people for 30+ years, there are several limiting factors on sample size. First, sample attrition. Some of the initial sample move away, some simply stop answering the calls for whatever reason. Second, the combination of study's temporal span and sample size is usually limited by the budget. As a result, when you plan a study that'll continue for 30+ years, you usually cannot also afford N-size in the tens of thousands.

Hold up- Why did you just bring up forced abortions out of nowhere? Forced abortions have nothing to do with this.

Risks of "ruined lives" also exist for some wanted pregnancies. Risks can exist independently of women's desire to have a baby. If you'd still allow women to have a baby even if it risks ruining her and the baby's life, or not have a baby even if all outcome estimates are sunshine and rainbows, then you don't actually care about the risks.

they stop caring about the fetus after it's out of its mother's womb.

How do you expect them to "care about the fetus after it's out"? Visit every mother in every maternity ward, give her and the baby a pat and a $1million check? - The world's GDP, all the money in the world, is not enough to support such scenario for longer than several weeks or so. Look up the numbers for yourself if you're interested.

[–]GGMcThroway1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For unwanted kids, it was the only result that was both significant and persistent through time 35 years later. By all other metrics, differences between wanted and unwanted kids were less pronounced. This is the result way better than your estimate of "[unwanted pregnancy] ruins the unwanted child's life (unless they're lucky)".

The abstract for the study says "The overall findings suggest that, in the aggregate, denial of abortion for unwanted pregnancy entails an increased risk for negative psychosocial development and mental well-being in adulthood." Give me a screenshot in the article itself showing that being a psychiatric parent is literally the only metric where unwanted and wanted pregnancies significantly differ since you apparently have access to the full version.

I can't see anything involving life circumstances (besides being a psychiatric patient), life satisfaction, or death. There's nothing I can see that actively disproves my estimate (and frankly, I see that psychiatry patients number as helping it).

Risks of "ruined lives" also exist for some wanted pregnancies. Risks can exist independently of women's desire to have a baby. If you'd still allow women to have a baby even if it risks ruining her and the baby's life, or not have a baby even if all outcome estimates are sunshine and rainbows, then you don't actually care about the risks.

Aborting a pregnancy (letting a woman make a decision about her own pregnancy without interference from the government) is way different than forcing an abortion (where the government decides that the abortion is required without the consent of the mother).

The latter would require a complete overhaul of our legal framework and would have a ton of people falling through the cracks anyway. Any kind of theoretical risk assessment at such a macro scale is going to have so many issues that using it for an argument against abortion doesn't make any sense.

Meanwhile, the former would require access to resources to allow individuals to make their own (hopefully informed) decisions. There are still things that can obviously go wrong, but having a resource (abortion) as an option means that no one has to use it if they don't want to. Which means the only abortions are the ones people are already consenting to.

How do you expect them to "care about the fetus after it's out"? Visit every mother in every maternity ward, give her and the baby a pat and a $1million check?

There's a lot of room between "no aid at all" and "$1,000,000 of aid for very single newborn". They could focus existing resources to make sure every unwanted child is able to to be placed in a loving home. They could make sure there's access to sufficient food, clothing, and decent schooling for every child (especially in low-income areas). They could take some responsibility for the children they want to force into existence instead of disingenuously pretending they have nothing to do with it when those unwanted children face predictable bad outcomes.

Or they could just minimize the costs overall by letting those unwanted children be removed from the equation in the first place.

[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Give me a screenshot in the article itself showing that being a psychiatric parent is literally the only metric where unwanted and wanted pregnancies significantly differ since you apparently have access to the full version.

"It was found that differences in psychosocial development widened over time but lessened at around age 30."

The details are published in another study on wave three; here's the study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7676833/

here are the effect tables and graphs: https://www.reddit.com/user/abaxeron/comments/vqt36n/excerpt_from_children_from_unwanted_pregnancies/

You may notice that for some categories, sibling controls (i.e. wanted children born to women who before or after them had unwanted pregnancy) had worse outcomes than their unwanted siblings.

As seen in tables, wanted children sometimes score even worse than their unwanted experimental peers, especially among males.

These are the scales of differences that you see as justifying termination of a life. By quick eyeballing, to me they seem smaller than the US differences between rural and urban population, and practically between any two racial groups.

They could focus existing resources to make sure every unwanted child is able to to be placed in a loving home.

The "existing resources" are managed by psychos with nukes.

They could make sure there's access to sufficient food, clothing, and decent schooling for every child (especially in low-income areas).

Last time I checked, the US scored second to last on prevalence of child malnutrition. Low-income areas would not be so low-income if psychos with nukes did not collect so many taxes.

They could take some responsibility for the children they want to force into existence instead of disingenuously pretending they have nothing to do with it when those unwanted children face predictable bad outcomes.

Yes. More freedom to parents. Lower taxes. Cohesive communities. All of these things matter. It's not pro-lifers who block them from emerging and favor drag queen curriculums on 3-year-olds, and such.

[–]CentralAdmin6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]CentralAdmin5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So you think it's realistic to expect your husband to go 20 years without sex?

Not like women aren't dead bedrooming their husbands anyway.

But I never said married people shouldn't have sex or kids. You can practice safe sex to reduce the chances of pregnancy and discuss beforehand what is supposed to happen if a pregnancy occurs. Getting pregnant also doesn't mean the kid is unwanted.

Using abortion as an argument against unwanted kids when there are other methods around isn't a point in its favour. All it says is that women cannot figure out how to make good decisions about relationships, sex and pregnancy. It's a nuclear option when there are many other ways to avoid pregnancy. This includes condoms, a copper IUD, hormonal birth control, vasectomies and even the pullout method (not a great idea).

Abstinence is a good idea for a woman who is unmarried or doesn't have a committed partner who will take responsibility if she does get pregnant. If she is married and hubby is cool with it, they may have kids who are wanted.

Y'all jumped to ridiculous conclusions because the thought of actually being in control of your sex drive sounds an awful lot like oppression.

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Neither of my grandparents wanted my dad or to be together long term - he was conceived on a date. Due to the culture at the time, a shotgun wedding followed two or three months into the pregnancy. They had a second kid two years later, and then by the time my dad was 6 y/o, his dad walked out on them and the divorce was approved because of “abandonment.” (But they reconnected later.)

My grandmother abused both him and his sister - made sure they knew they were never wanted. They just happened. My aunt rose above and has been a better mother to her kids - even her oldest son, who was unexpected. My dad passed his trauma and resentment of me and my sister onto us; now my sister never wants kids, and I’m getting help for my issues before I become a mother someday.

I’ll always live with the mental damage caused by my dad. My quality of life will always be much lower than my kids (when you consider my mental health) if I do my job right as a parent (when I have kids).

I can objectively admit that the best outcome would be for my dad to have never been born, for my grandparents to have had the option to abort. I say this knowing I wouldn’t have been born; but then my dad never would have existed to abuse my sister and I, or our mother, who would have existed even if he was aborted. He never would have hurt her.

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I think it’s mostly a confusion in terminology with a dash of careless reasoning. People will often try to use “human” to try to denote a unique individual and fall into the trap of using definitions that make a cell line in a Petri dish “human.”

What happens before that? Does he lose his “humanness” at some point or can you extend it all the way down to the fertilized egg?

In the sense that it stops containing some (but notably not complete) human DNA, no. But in the sense that it stops being a separate organism, sure, there’s no contradiction here unless you think your nuts are full of a bunch to different homunculi swimming around.

We play the same game with other denotations for people two. If we wanted to talk about when someone becomes sentient, for example, there is absolutely a point where we say “yea, that isn’t a sentient organism anymore.” Same deal.

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Long time lurker here. Im a straight male who agrees with a lot of the common sentiments regarding the difficulties and imbalances men face in modern dating and relationships.

That said, it doesn't make much sense to me that certain guys could support the overturn of Roe v Wade. It doesn't help guys who want to date around or men who want to find the right woman to start a family with.

It'll limit casual sex in certain states, which sucks for the guys who want normal dating lives. And if you end up in a situation where a girl ends up knocked up, and you both weren't considering each other as long term partners...you may be tied to each other for many years.

I don't see how this ruling helps the modern man. And I'm no Chad btw, I'm a regular dude who's had a fair amount of partners and dating experiences. I've also dealt with a ton of the BS men complain about here.

Thankfully I live in a blue state....but the ruling will have cultural effects everywhere.

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[–]VasiliyZaitzev1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So you hate America then?

Not particularly. I think it's on the down slope, though, but for different reasons than you do.

If one of us hates something it's you who hates the Constitution. Certainly the 10th Amendment at least: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

What's the point of states being part of a "union" if they don't follow the same laws and traditions.

Because what is "right" for the people of NY and what is 'right" for the people of S. Dakota might well be two different things.

Why should people in separate states love differently. We are Americans first and foremost.

But we are governed by two separate sovereigns - the state and the federal government. The Framers, having just successfully come out of a war with a strong central government intentionally created a weak confederation at first and later a country with a limited central government which we had up until probably 1932 or so, and then that became the beginning of the end.

[–]paladine76a1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]VasiliyZaitzev1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Most of the revised parts of the constitution you boldly prefer were written to appease southern states who owned slaves.

Immaterial. They were adopted as law, period, full stop, the end.

The whole electoral college was designed so that those same states wouldn't be out powered by states that had already freed their slaves.

Not true, but whatever. The small states have no interest in being out-muscled by the larger states. Why should Wyoming have the same land use restrictions as NY? The same gun laws, etc.?

Personally I don't give a rats ass about a constitution that was set up to appease slave owners.

You don't have to, but, like it or not, it's the law of the land. As a 2nd Am guy, I don't mind the people who actually want to repeal the 2nd Am. At least they are intellectually honest. Beats the crap out of the "but the miliiiiiiiiiiiiitia!" people who have zero understanding of jurisprudence and just want what they want because: feelz.

What nobody is bringing up is that Biden and the Dems could codify Roe tomorrow. Al they have to do is kill the filibuster and then vote for whatever abortion laws they want. They'd have to get Manchin and Sinema to go along but if they can't control senators of their own party that's not my problem. I think Schumer tried smth like this but the terms were too permissive to gather enough support.

I suspect that the Dems WANT abortion to be an issue because otherwise they were (and still may) going to get DESTROYED in the mid-terms.

[–]paladine76a1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol you seriously think people haven't noticed the last 2 years of Replublicans blocking all legislation and sabotaging America?

You can hate Biden all you want, but you know we'd have beaten inflation and lowered gas prices if Replublicans in the Senate would play along. Their obstruction is hurting their own base.

The filibuster was another method of former slave owners using their minority powers to affect the majority. Getting rid of it is damned near impossible. We already tried and failed.

I just think it's amusing you ignore the obvious anger of the majority and think you minority folks are going to sweep the midterms. Bro you are in for some serious disappointment.

Go ahead and come up with your excuses. Dead people, illegals, whatever...we've heard it all before. You know the truth is you are outnumber WHEN we vote.

[–]VasiliyZaitzev1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't "hate" Biden, but he's not particularly competent at the moment and he was a fatuous blowhard before that. Plus he's obviously on the take. But whatevs. He wouldn't be the first one.

but you know we'd have beaten inflation and lowered gas prices if Replublicans in the Senate would play along.

LOL. I don't "know" that and you don't either. What we are seeing is the direct result of bad fiscal and monetary policy for a long time from both sides who kicked the can down the road. If you ask Janet Yellen she'd say she wanted a program of about half the size of the one we got, but the bias is always towards action.

Biden's energy policies are an absolute DISASTER though. That's what's really killing the economy. Everything in the USA moves by truck so when you jack up the price of fossil fuels, you jack up the price of EVERYTHING.

The filibuster was another method of former slave owners using their minority powers to affect the majority.

Everyone seems to like it though. I mean nobody ever gets rid of it. I'd be happy to see it go, ofc. But according to my left wing friends the filibuster is either the Worst Thing Ever or One of the Very Foundations of Our Democracy, depending on whether the Dems are in the minority or not.

I just think it's amusing you ignore the obvious anger of the majority and think you minority folks are going to sweep the midterms. Bro you are in for some serious disappointment.

We'll see. Not everybody is as ENRAGED over abortion as you are. And evidently some other things.

I'm surprised Biden never pivoted back to the center. Usually pols run left/right (depending on party) in the primaries and then back to the center after. Biden never course-corrected. I don't think he can now. The Dems are going to lose the House by 40. It may well be historic. Not sure how the Senate will go - I think the over/under is 3.5 seats net for the GOP. We'll see.

Go ahead and come up with your excuses. Dead people, illegals, whatever...we've heard it all before. You know the truth is you are outnumber WHEN we vote.

You just aren't being rational now. Enjoy your emotional tantrum.

[–]paladine76a1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]VasiliyZaitzev2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's going to have an impact, but I don't think it's going to be dispositive. I could be wrong, ofc. But right now, the economy is not doing well, and that gets hung on the party in power.

I've perused some angry forums of women who are ready to make major waves.

We'll see. I suspect such forums involve some self-selection for angry women. And if you mean women like this dudes everywhere will be like: "We're good."

Gonna be a lot of lonely single guys out there unable to get a girl pretty soon.

So how will that be different from now? Trust between the sexes has been at an all-time low for a while.

The downside of the "Lysistrata" plan is that women need, and often want, men also. Don't kid yourself.

From a societal perspective we've been headed down the wrong path for a while. Social media is KILLING romantic relationships. Too much rampant hypergamy. It's great for guys at the top, but sux if you are in the bottom 80%. I used to joke that I 'loved' video games (I am not a gamer), back when I was 35 because: "because of videogames, I can get 22 year old girls!" Now that's more truth than fiction. There's a lot of shit going wrong for people, both men and women.

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I pointed out an issue, and because it hurt your feelings,

It didn't "hurt my feelings," lol, it's simply wayyyyyy overly simplistic to attribute a massive policy shift to a single factor while ignoring the other things (for instance, major works projects that brought jobs and significant improvements to many communities). People (not just women) of the era evidently perceived there to be a positive ROI in big government, or we never would have had the 16a.

Another factor was undoubtedly urbanization. It wasn't until the 1920s that more Americans lived in cities than in rural areas and cities of course require a higher level of government services (utilities, policing, roads, parks, etc.). And speaking of roads, cars became more commonplace in the 1920s and American began taking leisure trips, creating a demand for paved highways. A federal effort to expand road construction actually started prior to WW1 but was put on the back burner during the war and resumed afterwards.

But feel free to ignore everything else that was going on in society ATM and focus your magnifying glass on those eeeeevil wahmen! LOL

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What a funny coincidence! I was just about to share this with people.

“Goodwin says she became pregnant by her father when she was 12 years old after two years of abuse. Her father took her to a healthcare provider in New York, lied about her age, and got her an abortion. She didn’t need an exception.”

i’m so baffled by how extreme LA times sound, that I could’ve sworn this was a parody article made by conservatives. not only are they admitting that a rapist was able to lie about his victim’s age to not get reported, and continue to rape his victim for longer, they think that’s a good thing.

If it wasn’t for this article, I would’ve never believed conservatives when they talk about abortion clinic helpings rapists, holy shit! keep in mind, LA Times is also upset over the 15 week abortion banned.

This is where it stops being pro-choice and starts being pro abortion.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-04-08/red-states-eliminate-rape-exceptions-from-abortion-bans?_amp=true

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Women should not have the right to opt out of motherhood while men are denied the same rights.

We either all have the same rights or none of us do.

If men are continually denied the right to opt out of fatherhood while women get to enjoy endless cop-outs and tolerances then it is only fair that women get denied those rights. Why should women get to enjoy a legal right that is denied to men? Fuck that!

Feminists cry bitch and moan about equal rights but when it comes time to put your money where your mouth is now all of a sudden it's not about actual equality, it's about special privileges granted to women on the sole condition that they are women. These women-only privileges aren't just casually denied to men, men are forced to foot the bill and pay for the sustenance of these special privileges to women, or else we get even more right taken way such as the ability to find work, licenses, transportation and all manner of legal stigmatization designed to create as much hardship on a man's living condition to coerce him to comply up to and including incarceration!

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The tone of this comment just screams mysogyny. Obviously your algorithms think the same. Do you really think the majority of women that get abortions do it thinking its a fun time or lightly? I would say 99% of the time there is either a medical, emotional or financial reason, even if they just aren't ready to have a baby or they don't want children. I feel like the videos you've seen of women mocking their abortions are dark humour, and sometimes people use dark humour, get over it. And I can already hear the argument 'don't have sex if you don't want kids' or 'use protection'. Well newsflash, women are allowed to enjoy sex without wanting a baby, and sometimes with the best will in the world, protection fails. In addition to this in regards to your last point, I can already see some men being all 'women are big meanies and no one wants to have sex with me now, why does no one want to have sex with me'. And also what about the women who can't afford time off work to go and travel to get an abortion and the time off after to care for themselves. It's not as easy as you're making it out to be. And I never said they would have to uproot their entire lives to get one, I said the majority of women probably don't want to live in a state that's regressive enough to regard their lives as practically worthless. In addition to this you're joking if you think the government gives a shit about that baby once it's out the womb.

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The overturning of Roe v Wade isn't an abortion issue per se. Yes, the case is about the subject of abortion, and yes, its overturning can affect your ability to get an abortion depending on the laws of your state. But the case wasn't overturned because the Supreme Court thinks that abortion is evil, or because the court has been packed with right-wing extremists. This is about correcting an abuse of power that the Supreme Court committed in 1973.

Read William Rehnquist's dissent in the original Roe v Wade case. In short, the Supreme Court created a right (the right to an abortion) that did not exist within the 14th Amendment at the time it was passed.

How do we know the right didn't exist within the Amendment? Because when the 14th Amendment was passed via a Constitutional Convention, there were already something like 20+ abortion laws in effect in various states, and those laws were not affected when the 14th Amendment went into effect. Meaning, the 14th Amendment was never meant to address the question of whether abortion was a right or not.

Why is this a problem? Because when Roe v Wade was decided, it was, in effect, the Supreme Court bypassing Article V of the Constitution and editing an Amendment when it does not have the authority to do so. The Supreme Court in 1973 bypassed the whole process for amending the Constitution and made edits directly, acting as a legislative body.

That's a dangerous precedent to set. So the overturning of Roe v Wade is really the correction of an administrative mistake that could have had far-reaching implications if someone had tried to exploit it.

The question of whether abortion is a right or not is a debate worth having. That debate will still go on, and it will go on at the level of the states first. Some day it may once again rise to the level of the Supreme Court. And if that day should come, we should hope that the Supreme Court will stay within the boundaries of its assigned authority and responsibility.

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The courts have broadly ruled that people have a constitutionally protected right to privacy across policy domains and across court compositions.

I thought we were talking about constitutionality and now you want to talk about legal precedent based on what the courts have historically ruled?

Anyway...

The constitution guarantees a right to privacy on certain policy domains. Abortion is several, pivoting degrees of separation from these protected policy domains. We can go into Roe v Wade decision itself and I'll be happy to show this to you.

Even from an originalist perspective, I can't imagine the founders thought government had a role regulating medical procedures.

The primary justification of Roe v Wade was that it was violative of the 14th Amendment. So what was the intent of the 14th Amendment from an originalist's perspective?

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Lots of women who get abortions are married and poor or in a relationship and poor and having a second child creates a huge financial burden. Or their first child has complex health problems.

Of course pro life people want everybody to think sluts hooking up is the primary cause of abortion. Bad behavior that we can punish.

Better to think that than to look at a version of capitalism that deliberated creates a permenant underclass aided by deliberate policy and self interest.

Pro life people do not actually like babies or children because if they did we would at least have universal Healthcare. Pro life people can fuck a duck I have worked in pediatric nursing with actual babies and actual children and their quality of life if they have a chronic or serious illness are directly tied to class and income.

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No. I mean care during a well planned out and wanted pregnancy. There are times when, at the last days of pregnancy, the baby is not viable and it dies in the womb. Or a sudden medical issues comes up for the mother and she will not survive birthing a baby. A person carrying around a dead baby is not set up to survive. Heard about the recent story of a Texas mother going into a hospital because she was concerned about her baby? She miscarried at the hospital and she was arrested for “purposefully” aborting the fetus. Your loved ones can face all of these same things now. How about the absurdly high mortality rate of pregnant people in the US. Or the use of contraceptives for people with PCOS or period disorders. Literally this is the basic education everyone should have. That people like you should have before they force control over bodies that aren’t there own. Don’t think that just because the women in your life are pro-life that bad things can’t happen to them when they choose to have a baby. Any health issue related to pregnancy that goes wrong with them, they will be put on the back-burner now. Hope you can live with that.

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The logistics are fascinating now.

I think it will come down to pure practically. Technically safe early abortion medication is pretty available and transportable, making it illegal is only going to change the pathways to access. Investigating all loss of life (such as miscarriage) in early pregnancy would be nearly impossible and vastly expensive. Even if the assumption starts with the premise that the woman had secured and taken the now illegal medication, proving it would be difficult on the scale of frequency of miscarriage.

Another interesting logistical issue related to the above is that pathways for illegal substances (now bizarrely including abortion medication) are well established. I wonder what the profit margins are for selling abortion pills in that many states? I bet it is huge. If birth control also becomes illegal it will be a licence to print money. War on drugs anyone!

As for the physical consequences being lethal making it legal? Who knows, but I’m not sure that will shake out as the most pressing issue. Health care that tends to “press up” against a legality boundary inevitably end up with a client accessibility issue. Take access to drug and alcohol services for instance. People become scared of accessing them for very real logical reasons. Women dodging prenatal or even general health care services due to fear that they may potentially have a legal problem is not going to be a good thing and sadly it will not matter if that fear is well founded or not, the end result will be the same.

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I think it's a non-issue for abortion.

Women who don't want to get abortions are the type that are going to use protection. You get a well into the 90th to 99th percentile of protection from many different birth control methods, and on top of that you can use more than one at a time, so you would somehow need multiple unlikely failures to occur at once, then beyond that women are only truly fertile for 6 days per month, so you can avoid just avoid sex for that time period.

Source 1: The timing of the “fertile window” in the menstrual cycle: day specific estimates from a prospective study (National Library Of Medicine)

During the average woman's menstrual cycle there are six days when intercourse can result in pregnancy; this “fertile window” comprises the five days before ovulation and the day of ovulation itself.

Source 2: How effective is contraception at preventing pregnancy? (National Health Service)

It just lists off all the different methods and their effectiveness, the majority are well over 90%.

The issue that people don't want to acknowledge is that a huge portion of the women that need abortions are the type that had risky sex because they thought it was hot and it turned them on.

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Doesn't any form of contraception do this? Hell, even pulling out does this.

Is termination and prevention the same thing? What an odd and purposely stupid comment to make, all in order to try and make my point look bad, when yours actually doesn't make sense itself.

Are married couples "degenerates" because they want to fuck, but don't want (any more) kids? Or does this only apply to those filthy, dirty, unmarried sluts?

No, if you read my comment again, you'll see how I'm obviously talking about a very specific group of people. Why be a liar and jump to extreme examples?

Almost every person who preaches chastity would be furious if their partner stopped having sex with them.

This is because chastity is meant as no pre-marital sex by the absolute vast majority of people, only monks and some odd-balls go 100% no sex whatsoever.

It's obvious you don't really care about fetuses/embryos, and instead view pregnancy as a moral punishment of a woman for her 'misdeeds.'

Can you describe how it's a punishment? It's nothing more than a natural process of life caused by a biological reaction that she initiated in the absolute vast majority of cases, completely with her own consent and again in the absolute vast majority of cases, with an already established partner. The majority of current abortions are committed by adult women doing so for their own convenience, they rates at which they occur is too great for it to be due to rapes, incest, or failings of birth control methods. These are more than likely being committed by women who are having risky sex, like I've said before, the vast majority of women don't want to ever have an abortion, and they're smart enough and capable enough to take the right steps to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[–]banjocatto1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is termination and prevention the same thing?

Never claimed they were. Although, you do understand how IUDs work... right?

While the copper-coated IUD prevents pregnancy by not allowing the sperm to fertilize the egg. It also prevents fertilized eggs from implanting in the uterus. An IUD coated with progestin works in a similar way, as it thickens the cervical mucus and thins the uterine lining.

What an odd and purposely stupid comment to make, all in order to try and make my point look bad, when yours actually doesn't make sense itself.

You literally said, and I quote:

"Giving people a free pass to deny human life because they got horny is an extreme level of degeneracy and moral failure."

So I'm pointing out, that any form of contraception "denies human life."

This is because chastity is meant as no pre-marital sex

You realize that married couples have sex even when they don't want (anymore) children, right?

You do realize that married women have abortions and take birth control too, right?

Can you describe how it's a punishment?

An unwanted pregnancy has the ability to negatively impact a woman's life and health.

You've said, and I quote again:

"Giving people a free pass to deny human life because they got horny is an extreme level of degeneracy and moral failure."

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're aware of the physical, emotional, and situational consequences that pregnancy and birth pose for women.

The fact that you're moralizing sex, and labeling people who have sex for pleasure (outside of marriage) as degenerates, makes it more than obvious that you feel as though women who have sex should not be able to evade the physical, emotional, and situational consequences that pregnancy and birth pose.

It's nothing more than a natural process of life caused by a biological reaction

A lot happens that we can classify as the "natural process of life caused by a biological reaction". It still doesn't mean humans don't, and shouldn't interfere. If that's your argument, you would be against vasectomies, other forms of contraception that prevent implantation, care put in place to prevent miscarriages, infertility treatment, and treatment for menstrual issues and hormonal imbalances that come with age (for example).

The majority of current abortions are committed by adult women doing so for their own convenience

How is terminating a pregnancy a matter of convenience?

Again, the physical, emotional, and situational consequences that pregnancy and birth pose aren't merely "inconveniences."

Even if they were though (they aren't), again, so what?

These are more than likely being committed by women who are having risky sex

Correction: committed by women and men who are having risky sex

like I've said before, the vast majority of women don't want to ever have an abortion, and they're smart enough and capable enough to take the right steps to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Still doesn't negate the fact that women who've taken every precaution possible may still be in need of an abortion.

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I really want to offer up the point that the overturn primarily affects flyover states that are rural and generally less economically wealthy; what's crazy to me about the ban is it seems like tradcons have been co-opted by the gov to essentially force birth onto those states; what happens when places with less wealth and less infrastructure have limited access to birth control? They perpetuate the cycle of poverty. Imo this had very little to do with women as individuals and it's more so that the gov is trying to bolster the working class population by getting rural Americans to basically shit out children. Whether or not it will work is yet to be seen. It's worth noting that many of these children may grow up to be conservative-leaning given they're growing up in red states. Or, maybe not, but tbh this just looks like the gov is looking to make poor women replenish laborers. It's kind of disgusting because it does imply that the main value these people have is simply generating a stock of laborers.

The majority of coastal states are unaffected by this. And when you take away the argument of hypothetical souls and subtract ethics based arguments for why abortion should be banned, the objective result is still that it'll just make more people who will probably suffer some level of unwantedness and financial hardship.

[–]Urbantexasguy3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]urbangoth3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As someone who lives in the west, I'm not incredibly familiar with the details of southern economics or how they view class and financial health. From what I do know, it seems like there's a distaste for higher education and more white collar work; what's weird to me is that they wouldn't care about their ability to keep people out of poverty. I know there's issues with poverty everywhere, but the opioid epidemic did seem to impact rural america in a major way. I get that there's likely a strong ideal of right-leaning libertarianism in those areas, so I'm not sure if that's why they wouldn't take immediate issue with the lack of safety nets for poor mothers? Churches are gonna get a lot more members too, I imagine, because women will likely seek out help or the "protection" of being religious in those areas.

What's also crazy, just in regards to trp things, is that they're seemingly smug or happy about something that's going to create more of what they dislike: single mothers.

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[–]urbangoth1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You don't think a level of anxiety regarding declining birth rates paired with the ideas of "race replacement theory" and "no one wants to work anymore" doesn't play into how these states move to legislate? I don't believe that nonsense, but the outcome of this ruling in those states IS going to be more babies and poverty. And poverty perpetuates people being trapped in shit jobs with no education or having to turn to religion or crime to find a way to survive. Though the point of republicans pandering to this base seems accurate. It's just nuts to me to watch some of the most impoverished areas of America repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to potentially bettering themselves. Their main means of acquiring power is having numbers and religion; I don't understand why they're hellbent on this versus trying to create a stronger local economy, infrastructure for their community, and try to elevate through education or technical trainings. I get that not everyone is like that, but wtf is up with rural America hating developing past small town life?

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I never made that point.

I literally said that the man should pay for the ticket and flight for the women he impregnated.

So where did I say ban? A blue state is not going to ban abortions.

Listen I hate people, but if a person who was rape and wanted a abortion because of said rape, I would pay for that person. Because deep down even tho I as a person just said and told you I don’t care about people I don’t know…. I still would and want to help. Cuz deep down, I’m a hero.

So don’t put positions and words in my mouth. I’m not advocating for banning. We know that a blue state will never ban abortion. I just want people to take accountability for themselves and their actions. And if the laws makes it harder, idc. Cuz those struggles will make the person better.

I agree with you that all people need to be held accountable why are you still fighting me? I’m on your side In regrad. You are just to emotional to think clearly.

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Men who are pro life

Life begins at conception, so abortion is murdering an innocent child. The only exception I'm ok with is when the mother's life is at serious risk; the child's already doomed, there's no reason to get the mother killed too. That's not to say the child's death isn't tragic, just that one tragedy is better than two.

The viability argument doesn't work because it defines personhood based on what medical technology is available. A fetus is viable at different stages depending on what technology is available. A child born premature to a mother in clinic in rural Appalachia is viable much later than one in a high-tech hospital in NYC. So is the Appalachian child less of a person than the New Yorker? Of course not, your geographic location doesn't determine how much moral weight your life has. There's a similar problem with wealth; a child born premature to a rich family is viable much earlier than one born to a poor family. Is the poor kid's life worth less than the rich kid's? It's also a problem temporally; a child prematurely 200 years ago had way worse odds than one born prematurely today. Was the kid 200 years ago less of a person than the one today? Of course the answer to all of these is "No". All children are equally morally valuable; Georgian or New Yorker, rich or poor, today or 200 years ago, all children have an equal right to life.

Before anyone tries it, I'm an atheist. I don't care what any religion says about this either way, whether it agrees with me or not.

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“Goodwin says she became pregnant by her father when she was 12 years old after two years of abuse. Her father took her to a healthcare provider in New York, lied about her age, and got her an abortion. She didn’t need an exception.”

i’m so baffled by how extreme LA times sound, that I could’ve sworn this was a parody article made by conservatives. not only are they admitting that a rapist was able to lie about his victim’s age to not get reported, and continue to rape his victim for longer, they think that’s a good thing.

If it wasn’t for this article, I would’ve never believed conservatives when they talk about abortion clinic helpings rapists, holy shit! keep in mind, LA Times is also upset over the 15 week abortion banned.

This is where it stops being pro-choice and starts being pro abortion.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-04-08/red-states-eliminate-rape-exceptions-from-abortion-bans?_amp=true

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[–]poppy_blu1 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

Seems like the pro lifers need a basic lesson in human sexuality (not at all surprising).

You say life begins at conception, correct?

Did you know (and I know you didn’t) most current and popular birth control methods are actually designed to prevent a fertilized egg (a “baby/life” according to your definition) from attaching to the uterus?

If terminating a pregnancy via abortion is murder, doesn’t that make taking the pill murder? Doesn’t that make tying your tubes murder?

And, did you know (again I know you didn’t) that when a woman has sex, tons of her eggs get fertilized but only 99.999999% of them never make it to the uterus and become a fetus — even when she’s not on birth control?

Does that make any sexually active woman a murderer?

So it sounds like to you, pro lifers, the only BC method that isn’t murder is condoms.

So wrap em up boys, or else use your hands!

Oh no wait - a vasectomy is also not murder. So lo and behold, the only guiltless forms of birth control are one that are the responsibility of men.

How ya like that, folks? LMBAO

[–]Ok-Application-7614 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

when a woman has sex, tons of her eggs get fertilized but only 99.999999% of them never make it to the uterus and become a fetus — even when she’s not on birth control?

Which means only 1 in 100 million eggs becomes a fetus.

Which is of course complete bullshit, because an average woman has only 1-2 million eggs at birth and 300,000-400,000 eggs by the moment she hits puberty.

In a woman's reproductive years, they will lose roughly 1000 eggs but ovulate only one egg (more in ~1-2% of cases) each month.

https://extendfertility.com/your-fertility-3/egg-count/

To conclude, if you put down the mask of a smug moral superior for a minute, people will actually love you more.

I guess this is what happens when you ban books and reject science.

Yeah, exactly. As the leader of world economic forum says, "reed ze book".

[–]poppy_blu1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok … 1000 a month.

The best outcome is one fetus. Setting aside that the number of live births for the average American is 1.7 in her entire lifetime, let’s just say that one given month we’re arguing about here that she gets knocked up.

1/1000= .1 percent, boo.

That means 99.9 percent did not become a fetus.

So. Care to actually address any of the points I made?

Rhetorical question.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]poppy_blu1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Boo, they’re getting ready to go after everything. Birth control, gay marriage, porn, women’s rights, probably interracial marriage too — cuz ya know God says it’s immoral.

This is the consequence of allowing religion to use their tax free status to lobby and buy politicians. It’s 2022 and they are demanding ROI now on their investment all these years.

Get ready for the birth of Gilead.

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It’s been coming since Reagan. Read up on how much of his campaign funds came from the Christian coalition.

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[–]Woolly_mammoth_13 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is no abortion ban.

You can still go to blue states and get abortions.

You can still travel and get abortions.

No one is going to make you stay in your red state and not get an abortion.

No one is taking away your birth control .

You can still fuck whoever you want. Or not.

You can still marry whoever you want. Or not.

All that's been said today is that the US constitution does not contain a right to abortion and the states can regulate them.

Most states will have some form of abortion. A few states will ban abortion.

If you don't like the abortion laws in your state, you can move to a state that has abortion laws you like or agree with. If you cannot or don't want to move, you can travel to a state that allows abortions.

Nothing's changed. Everything's still the same.

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There is no abortion ban

We know, but we lost our constitutional right to abortions. Now its up to the states.

You can still travel and get abortions.

So those of means can get abortions, but those are who poor, and the most likely to need welfare programs after the child is born, are SOL.

No one is going to make you stay in your red state and not get an abortion.

There are women who lack the means to travel and take time off from work to get an abortion. And plus this may change very shortly in the future.

No one is taking away your birth control .

Republicans are already talking about it.

You can still fuck whoever you want. Or not.

Now with an increased risk of an unwanted pregnancy.

You can still marry whoever you want. Or not.

For now. obergefell v. hodge is probably next on the chopping block. Already been rumblings about that one too.

If you don't like the abortion laws in your state, you can move to a state that has abortion laws you like or agree with. If you cannot or don't want to move, you can travel to a state that allows abortions.

Again, disproportionately affects people who lack means.

Nothing's changed. Everything's still the same.

This was a dumb take right here.

[–]Woolly_mammoth_0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We know, but we lost our constitutional right to abortions. Now its up to the states.

As it should be. Go to states that have abortion policies you like. Problem solved.

So those of means can get abortions, but those are who poor, and the most likely to need welfare programs after the child is born, are SOL.

Bullshit. those who love feticide will pay for it. All kinds of "charities" will spring up to help them travel. Insurers will pay for them.

There are women who lack the means to travel and take time off from work to get an abortion. And plus this may change very shortly in the future.

See above.

Republicans are already talking about it.

Not going to happen. BC is safe - people want it and have no objections to it.

Now with an increased risk of an unwanted pregnancy.

No. Risk still the same - you'll just have to do a little more to make sure your BC works. Be responsible! Such a concept.

For now. obergefell v. hodge is probably next on the chopping block. Already been rumblings about that one too.

Horseshit. Not happening. No one cares.

Again, disproportionately affects people who lack means.

Poor people move all the time. How bad do you want to be able to get an abortion? If you want one bad enough, you'll find a way.

This was a dumb take right here.

Nah, you just don't agree with it because you lost a battle today.

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I thought you guys think all lives matter?

In the context of not getting brutalized by the police for no reason, yes.

But you’re saying people struggling w addiction their lives don’t matter.

You're trying to blame pro-lifers for shit women do to themselves, which I'm not understanding why. What does pro-lifers have to do with my aunt struggling when my aunt got welfare but wasted it on crack?

Their need for help doesn’t matter.

She still got welfare while living her life as a crack addicted prostitute.... in New York, btw. I guess you don't realize that New York is not a Pro-life state. New York didn't even bother notifying anyone when they arrested her for prostitution and left her 3 young sons to fend for themselves for week. Not even when the landlord ended up kicking them out and leaving all their stuff on the streets.

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I'm pro-choice but this argument of yours is terrible...

Do you believe in universal healthcare or universal childcare? Do you support radical redistribution of wealth to favor low and middle class families?

You're completely mangling the distinction between negative rights and positive rights.

The idea of a right to life is a claim to a negative right - i.e. no one may murder you.

You're trying to turn it into a positive right - i.e. an state-enforcible obligation for other people to furnish you the resources to sustain your own life.

Do you support the banning of the guns that kill children in schools?

Ridiculous emotionalism. The guns don't kill kids in schools. Nutcases with guns do so. Not to mention the vast majority of US gun violence isn't "person goes postal at a school." School shootings are a drop in the bucket compared to gang violence in inner cities, and most of that is a byproduct of the War On Drugs.

If you really want to end the US's gun violence problem, end the War On Drugs.

I'm in favor of abortion but please, start using better arguments.

[–]CanOfWoody0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The children?

Yes

Do you believe in universal healthcare or universal childcare? Do you support radical redistribution of wealth to favor low and middle class families?

Yes

Do you support the banning of the guns that kill children in schools?

No, because guns dont kill people. People kill people. We need to fix the problems that make people want to shoot up schools. Theres places where guns are banned where things are far more deadly and the opposite as well. Its a people problem.

Do you support the forceful intervention of the state into multinational corporations who are causing devastating climate change?

Yes

What about the children who are in Asia working 18 hour work days for these corporations to sell you your clothes?

I hope their goverments add restrictions on child labor, other than that I cant do anything.

What about the children who spent months in cages at the border, separated from their families, who are forced to return to their war-torn and impoverished countries?

Their parents shouldnt have broken the law. If it was my way thered be a border wall with top notch security keeping them all out. Its on their country to take care of them. America cant take in everyone who wants to. We have enough problems. I believe in fixing the holes on a sinking ship before letting more people on it.

Who are you protecting if you don't protect them once they are birthed?

I would like to

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I think ripping open your taint and vagina, sacrificing mobility for several months, having to accept the greatly reduced quality of life that comes with the hundreds of potential side effects of pregnancy, depression, hormone induced mood swings and potentially death during child birth that occurs at an oddly higher rate for women of color in the US, is quite disingenuous to call an “inconvenience”. If you are comfortable with having your taint ripped open through to your anus and relying on diapers during recovery or having your abdominal muscles ripped open for a fetus you were forced to incubate and potentially lose your job over- then by all means, go ahead. As long as you don’t think your beliefs should be held universally. Guns kill REAL people who have led REAL lives. Abortions terminate fetuses that would not have been well cared for by parents that didn’t want it anyways. Not the same in the slightest. Idk about you but if I had to choose between a fetus being aborted before 12 weeks of gestation like the vast majority are, or a middle schooler being shot to death in front of me- it’s pretty damn easy to see the difference.

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I do believe people should be able to get abortions

So there’s a reason that comparing being against gun control to being pro-life in attempts to frame those who fit both molds is a non-sensical argument. Being against gun control and being pro-life at the same time is far from contradicting. People who are pro-life believe in objective morality (as most people do), and objective rights, with their main differentiator being that they believe rights are granted at conception and those rights are not up for interpretation.

One of those objective rights would be having the ability to protect yourself as best as you reasonably could, so being anti gun control fits very well into that equation. It would be more odd to be like me and be anti gun control due to objective rights while also believing people should be able to get abortions.

Most people don’t care about people being killed in general until it lands near or hits your own home. That’s when people will care. In reality, until this happens, none of us can really be expected to care at any high level, because if you did, you would be disgruntled 24/7.

All this being said, I just don’t agree with the whole “the end is near” notion, the world is still filled with horrible events but at the end of the day it is filled with much less than it used to and there’s a lot of accomplishments we could pride ourselves in but choose not to because it’s easier the be mad at things than it is to appreciate other things.

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It's probably just going to end up that there will be less casual sex period and more women will just wait for marriage.

In reality most men would rather just let single mothers and their children starve than give them their money.

If we're talking about single mothers and their children that got pregnant because of them....if they're really ok with that, why do men sit around and argue about why they're not considered the primary parent and why they haven't historically gotten favorable custody agreements during break ups? As you say, they literally don't even care if their own children starve.

The actual strategy in this scenario would be, American women become single mothers. American men marry more feminine women from other nations.

LOL. I have two South Asian women who have married into my very white family. Women from two different countries who did not know each other prior to being in America. And these women are a trip, who once they landed on American soil essentially ruled the roost. If you want the women to stay the way you think they are, you probably should stay in their home country with them. Foreign women aren't the ace up your sleeve that you think they are, especially when they come back to America.

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The women currently have that choice too. Through abortion.

So like I said. Let’s either prevent both parents from opting out, or neither. Let’s at least be consistent.

And yes, the choice is 100% hers because it's 100% in her body. If men want a say at that point, y'all need to figure out a way to carry a ZEF.

This isn’t necessarily true because it’s anecdotal. What about the husband who took care of the wife for 9 months while she was pregnant, or for even longer if on maternity leave? And I’m aware that women can generally “take care of themselves” in today’s world, but that is an entirely new concept, and it has devalued men’s innate “protector” status within a nuclear family as not important or inconsequential.

Until women learn to respect men’s place within the nuclear family as leaders, facilitators of resources and physical protectors, as men I’ve respected women’s place as caregivers, lovers and emotional protectors, you will never get them to agree with you.

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Different states have different grounds for termination. Sometimes it's court ordered and sometimes the parent can fight in court if they really don't believe they're stable enough to have anything to do with that child. They'd have to determine that it's in their best interest for them to not be involved with the child at all.

So my dad was in the state of New Jersey when my mom terminated her parental rights. I was a baby when this happened so I'm always curious to what happened that she actually won this case. I do know that I was terrified of men until I was about 4 years old.

So parents who are into drugs, frequently in jail for things, bringing their children to dangerous situations etc. are grounds for terminating parental rights in some states. It's not something where you can just say "I don't want to be a parent anymore so I don't want to pay child support". But it is possible to waive parental rights under certain circumstances.

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What a time to be alive. I feel like all my contingency plans are kind of fucked right now so that’s great /s. I’m heading into my third year of college in a red state that is working hard to change their existing abortion rules that allow a woman to get an abortion before the baby is 12 weeks. They’re currently working to reduce that. I pretty much pay for my own education and bills with no help or very little help from my parents and I’m first gen. So though my home state is a blue state, returning to it to get an abortion is somewhat impossible because finances most likely won’t allow. My home and my college are about 13 hours apart driving. Surrounding states of my college are red.

I’m 20 and can’t support a baby nor would I want to have one right now. I work so hard everyday to give my future kids a comfortable life where they don’t have to struggle and so they can have limited worries. That’s literally what I tell myself on those days I don’t want to get out of bed. And if I were to have a child within the next couple years, all of that would be ruined and I’ll have failed. I have an IUD that got placed 10 months ago (in hindsight, I’m happy I got that done when I did) but no birth control is 100% and if that were to fail, I’m pretty much fucked. Parents would support me but definitely would be somewhat disappointed. Being a mom has always been my life goal but not in a world with these conditions. Not like this.

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[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

How is that obscuring anything? Everyone knows a pregnancy lasts about 40 weeks.

Also, as someone who has been pregnant, the anatomy scan is at 20 weeks and that’s when fetal abnormalities can be found.

My son was diagnosed with ventriculomegaly in the womb. Had it been severe he could have been born with no quality of life, never being able to eat without tubes, confined to wheelchair, and unable to talk. It would have been a mercy to abort him and I absolutely would have.

Luckily his ventricles went down and he was born healthy and happy.

I would never condemn a woman for not wanting to bring her baby if all it would do is suffer.

[–]Laytheblameonluck -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

They are incredibly accurate. Ventriculomegaly has to do with the ventricles in the brain. Are you saying MRIs are notoriously inaccurate?

First they do a scan, then another kind, then an MRI, along with all sorts of other testing that I didn’t need since his ventricles shrunk.

This stuff is quite accurate. I was on a page with thousands of these mothers for this issues. 99% of the time the doctors were right about the quality of life the child would have.

Just the same, I’d abort for Down syndrome and countless other issues since I worked in homes for these kids and adults. I sure as shit wouldn’t bring a human into the world just to live like that.

[–]Laytheblameonluck 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

Arguably, we are all a clump of cells.

[–]mcouve [score hidden] 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]toughestanswers 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]redditthrowaway1478💪M/30/Seattle/red/optimistic nihilist 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SliptheLust, Thrust, Bust and Dust [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Probably because that bunch of old fuddy duddies that nobody voted for seem to pick and chose what does and does not get sent back to " the people". They were pretty cool with deciding the outcome of the 2000 election. I think they will slso be okay with reversing federal protection and sanction of gay marriage as well.

Plus " the people" do not actually get a voice since gerrymandering is routine and usually done by Republicans, you get two Senators whether you live in California or Mississippi, ordinary people do not have the financial resources to run for a as a Represenative or a Senator, lobbyists who mostly write legislation have access to Senators and key stakeholders in a way " the people " do not.

Rich folks are still going to fly their wives, girlfriends, mistresses, and daughters to Cali of NY for an abortion if they need it but " the people" are not going to have the resources, time, or connections to do that.

" The people" in this country rarely if ever get to decided much of anything of significance, they do get a crumb in the form of Presidential elections that cost billions and are generally contested between two corporatist candidates one of whom tends to be more religious than the other.

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Probably because that bunch of old fuddy duddies that nobody voted for seem to pick and chose what does and does not get sent back to " the people". They were pretty cool with deciding the outcome of the 2000 election. I think they will slso be okay with reversing federal protection and sanction of gay marriage as well.

I mean, yes, that's the point of the supreme court... To determine what is and is not federal power.

Plus " the people" do not actually get a voice since gerrymandering is routine and usually done by Republicans, you get two Senators whether you live in California or Mississippi, ordinary people do not have the financial resources to run for a as a Represenative or a Senator, lobbyists who mostly write legislation have access to Senators and key stakeholders in a way " the people " do not.

I agree gerrymandering is an issue and an abuse of the system. But that does not mean the system itself is bad.

" The people" in this country rarely if ever get to decided much of anything of significance, they do get a crumb in the form of Presidential elections that cost billions and are generally contested between two corporatist candidates one of whom tends to be more religious than the other.

Well then they should be celebrating this win that puts some power back in their hands.

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RIPGeorgeHarrison -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

You realize children who get pregnant and need abortions can’t vote right?

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Zavier221 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link

One thing I don't like about both sides is the revenge fantasies.

"Men we will not have sex with you at all untill this is changed "

This pisses me of cus its presented as all men are pro life , all men are at fault and all men are the reason for this occuring when statistically 47% of men from a Gallup survey said that they are pro choice.

But why do you care " FRAGILE MALE EGO" because your making an incorrect caricature of the side your against and sending message to the wrong people

From the same study women are 33% likely to be pro life, which is a third a big percentage when you people are acting like its only men and women have not fault in this outcome.

" Finally these women get what they deserved from bashing men all the time"

If you think women bashing men happens alot you need to stop looking at Twitter women. Most women don't care to consistently bash men or these women are a small subset who have been hurt.

The average girl who is liberal in real life and not internet wise doesn't wish for all men to rott away and it's stupid to think she does. So this recent fantasy effects many of these women who haven't done anything or said negative to men.

Moreover it's a "Coope" to get happy over something that doesn't effect you, some of you are sexless, the result either way doesn't change anything in your life so it's funny you getting happy.over it , go focus in look maxing.

Not shaming for being sexless but for getting happy over something which doesn't affect your life, it just seems stupid to me

" Now she'll make more sensible choices"

You really think that....

You really think this sex strike is going to last, that's funny man

Women will be back to their old habits with the same guys, and won't be more sensible with who they choice they just move states.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zavier221 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

It’s not revenge. It’s safety. I’m not going to die for a fetus that I don’t even want.

I’m married to a very pro-life man and if I ever accidentally got pregnant, we would want to abort. We have one child. We don’t want another.

So, if abortion became illegal where we live, we’d not be able to have sex without risk. We aren’t willing to risk it. So we would not have piv sex.

[–]Teflon08191 [score hidden] 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I’d literally cut off an arm and a leg before going through pregnancy and birth again. It was fucking horrific. It was beyond torture.

You can’t equate a pill to what amounted to over a year of pure fucking torture. (Took me months and months to heal from infection after infection)

[–]Teflon08191 [score hidden] 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zavier221 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I got pregnant at 16 using condoms.

5 women I know who’ve had abortions (all in long term married relationships) were all using at least one form of birth control. IUD or pill. Hell, I even know a girl who got pregnant after a tubal.

Try again.

[–]Zavier221 [score hidden] 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Laytheblameonluck 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]-foxtrot-uniform-1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If you can’t answer your own question, you don’t know nearly enough on the subject matter. It’s audacious of you to even have an opinion.

Also, there are 23.8 deaths per 100,000 births in the USA. So women die all the time, and that is just during child birth. There are countless other things during pregnancy like preeclampsia that kills women.

Also, if abortion is illegal, women will die needing necessary abortions. They will die from septic shock like in all the other countries that ban abortions. They have to make sure women will actually die if the abortion isn’t done, and by then it’s too late. Those stories are a dime a dozen and the reason Ireland now has legal abortions. Women died because of those laws.

[–]Laytheblameonluck 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Express-Fig-5168Purple Pilled "Stacylite" 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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You are using loaded language to construe a narrative that serves to deny me my very basic right to NOT be forced into an agreement in which my consent is unjustly denied.

you not having access to the ability to financially abandon a child

"Ability to financially abandon a child." You first need to prove that I am abandoning a child by providing grounds under which I am to be held accountable for this.

This is where your basic feminist arguments completely fall apart.

I am not accountable for a child if I have absolutely no say on whether or not such a child even comes into this world or not! Not my choice = Not my responsibility.

Men cannot birth children, thus de facto we are not accountable anymore now that we have modern birth control.

That we make ourselves responsible because we want to is a whole other matter. A matter in which women have been exploiting and taking advantage of men's better nature for their own advantage. It is not enough that a man may want to take care of a child you feel entitled to literally coerce him and force him against his will to do so!

Well what the hell do you expect then? That we are just going to be threatened and strong armed into bearing a burden for which we are not even given the fucking courtesy of having our own opinion about it? Because men are certainly NOT allowed to even voice if they want to be fathers or not. The woman gets the full privilege here and men are sidelined and told to shut the fuck up.

But you are choosing to instead turn the entire population of women into your enemy instead of looking to the people who represent you in government.

Nobody represents men in government. THAT's the issue here. The rich, women, businesses, and the religious are all represented very well. Men in general? Not so much.

If we have to take sides with one of those other factions just to get our damned voices heard then fuck it. We will do so, whether its anti-abortion, big business, or some religious nut jobs.

You say women are not the enemy, well then why the hell am I so being attacked by them right now for merely voicing my opinion here? What do you think those feminist lobbies in the government are actually doing with all that power to fuck men over? You think they aren't gonna do it out of the kindness of their hearts?

You are calling for justice against everyday women you dont know and justifying them having their rights taken away when they have nothing to do with the grievance you are talking about. Do you not see that?"

Tit for tat. Women don't give a fuck about average man's rights so why should I - the average man - give a fuck about theirs? Especially when they are so hell bent on troding mine.

They have everything to do with my grievance because they are the ones enjoying privileges at my expense.

[–][deleted]0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]just_a_place3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All you are doing is screaming to the void and throwing a fit.

What else can I do? I wonder if this is in some way meant to invalidate what I am actually voicing here. You have no idea how adamantly women always try to shut me up whenever I bring up this issue. I have heard it all. Shaming language, threats, threats of emasculation, bargaining, even fake sympathy all just to get me to shut the hell up before I rattle up all the other men in the room.

the government IS men.

At the service of women's interests. Just because they have a dick in theirs pants doesn't mean those sellouts, shills, puppets, and supreme simps are on my side. They represent women, big business, guns, oil, religion, and every other special interest group except common men. We are not a part of that club, Why do you think the Red Pill even exists? You think the red pill is about dating?

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If you really do want to get those rights back rather than rage against the evil other I can give you some practical advice that will actually work.

Not that you are in the mood to hear this today, you can always come back to it later.

Step 1- Deradicalize.

If you want to change the laws you need to get your political party into positions of power. To do that you need to get large numbers of people who think differently from you to vote for your party. You need people in "flyover country" rednecks, workers, business owners, men, women, old young, bros, apolitical, centrists and even some right wing leaning people. If you want a congressional supermajority to pass a new amendment or to keep the office of president long enough to appoint enough judges.

There are plenty of people who are not religious pro life fanatics who would vote democrat if democrats were not insane woke authoritarians lately. Bill Maher describing part of the problem

Hell, I'm pro abortion, athiest and support a whole pile of left wing stuff like public healthcare, public transport, prioritizing making cities better for biking and walking, taking massive corporations down a peg or two, reforming the criminal justice system etc. Yet currently there isn't any high profile democrat that I would consider supporting. Why? because they have embraced woke tribalistc neoauthoritriansim to insane levels. Not to mention that they hate people like me. Every speech, every talking point, every article they write, every policy they push is full of hate and revenge against people that look like me. Why would I give power to the people that hate me and want to do me harm?

So if you can't get voters like me that should be a shoo in for voting left wing, how are you going to get all the harder ones? Just your own voters won't win elections, you need to convince other groups of people.

The only way to do that is to deradicalize the more insane people that are making your party unpalatable to so many.

The three judges that swung the ruling were appointed because Trump won the election. Most of his voters were not even thinking about abortion at all. They were voting against Hillary and the democratic party. Unless you can see them as actual human beings and understand their legitimate grievances against the way the left has treated them over the last decade or two you will never get their support and you will never get abortion reinstated on a national level.

At the end of the day you can pick between doubling down on the rage and hating the other or you can work on effecting meaningful change. You can't do both.

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As somebody who was / is 100% liberal on social policies and fiscal policies, who has worked on 3 democratic campaigns in the past, has attended protests for liberal causes, I'm fucking done with yall.

The circular firing squad that Obama referred to a few years ago will continue to render these self inflicted wounds on the left for the foreseeable future.

The Obama years led to apathy, then Trump showed up and took advantage of that. Then metoo happened, then trans activism then it was off to the races with an unbelievable string of causes and hashtag campaigns ripped straight from The Onion.

You all would rather spend your time marching, screaming dumb slogans through bullhorns, breaking Starbucks windows, changing school names, screaming about cultural appropriation, turning "cishet white male" into a slur, openly declaring your support for socialist candidates while shitting on the viable one in 2016, tearing down statues, calling literally everything "white supremacy", trying to cancel comedians for jokes and straight men for consensual sex, inventing new words and genders and police the language of others than do the boring non-virtue signally work required to make actual progress.

In the mean time, the batshit religious / Ayn Rand gun worshipping nuts on the right were wisely dumbing down their message and appealing to and speaking to the demographics that actually vote.

Behind the scenes they were canvassing neighborhoods, taking over your school boards, carefully redistricting, gerrymandering, stacking courts, chipping away year by year while you were all wearing pussy hats and spending half your time worrying about a demographic that represents less than 1% of the population.

"Owning the libs" was their united mission, even if they disagreed on minor things like health care and guns. The left was concerned with making enemies out of anybody who didn't fall in line with their dogma, including myself. Somebody who has worked far far harder for actual results than any of the blue haired whiners that measure their political success in likes.

My fellow liberals seem to only want to scream, pout and feed their savior complex at the cost of alienating a large portion of the population.

Now, many people have checked out and can't be bothered to give a flying fuck. Until the Democratic party has a purge of its dogmatic nuts, expect more of this to continue. Gay marriage, contraception, preexisting conditions, anything is on the table now because of you idiots.

The only glimmer of hope is the rise of a 3rd party that rejects the absolute insanity and necessarily extreme ideologies that both parties have devolved into and make a point of a return to sanity.

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No, the OP wanted us to consider ourselves as fetus' who had been aborted, but how we shouldn't be supportive of abortion because we wouldn't like to be in that position as then we wouldn't exist/be murdered.

In order to show how idiotic I found that argument, I reworded it show how meat eaters should not be supportive of killing animals, as they also would not be like it if they were an animal being killed. (I assumed OP was a meat eater as well, or else this comparison wouldn't work).

The point is there is no point in placing yourself in situations that are direly different than what you need to consider and what you will never be (i.e. you will never ever solely just be a fetus and stop there. You already exist, and you would not be sentient enough to comprehend your own existence otherwise- it is futile to mourn yourself in a state where you hardly "are", and I personally see this as a few developed stages past being an egg which I "kill" every month). I would even argue we are far more relatable in our current states to live animals that're killed than fetus'.

It has nothing to do with legality of rights as people under the law, but simply how relatable we are in our current existing states to fetus'.

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Well the question was about before you die. So you'd have the option of dying or not.

And I answered by saying I wouldn't see the light of day so I wouldn't be able to to care. I don't remember anything before the age of 4, trying to probe me for an answer regarding what occurs before I'm even physically born is just gonna be a debate on hypothetical opinions.

I'm either aborted or I'm not, if I am then I wouldn't be here having this conversation so my opinion is non-existent. If I'm not aborted then my opinion on the matter of my own abortion is irrelevant since I'm here now.

You wouldn't care if, say, the world is destroyed by climate change so long a it happens after your death?

is shit that I'm literally unconcerned with because I'm no longer living.

This isn't me adding "literally" for emphasis, I am 100% unconcerned because I physically can not be concerned. I was very selective with my words when I said "I wouldn't be able to care" ... because I'm already dead.

If I die right this second, and later today everyone on the planet learns that Earth is going to be destroyed tomorrow, guess what?

I'm already dead I literally can not care. I can not learn about, contemplate, or act on this new information/situation because I am a corpse.

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How dumb does a person have to be to make it legal to kill them?

It is interesting you think this is somehow a foolproof, brilliant argument.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're arguing that basing a person's rights on some sort of cognitive thing (i.e. the position that "personhood" is grounded in the possession of a reasoning or capable-of-reasoning mind) is a dangerous slippery slope.

But our society already does condition at least some rights on the basis of cognitive things. We do this to children all the time - we deny them the same rights adults have because they are less neurologically developed. We do this with adults who lack their full cognitive faculties through systems like conservatorship, power of attorney, and the like. Adults with severe mental or neurological problems that require them to have assisted living also are given less rights than adults who lack them.

So there is really nothing new or nothing controversial about conditioning rights on cognitive development.

Now to be fair, you have a point about the very specific issue of right to life (in the sense of a basic negative liberty to not be killed by others). The question of when a developing fetus acquires the kind of consciousness or ability to think (or whatever you want to call it) is a complicated one.

However, I am not the one claiming that "life begins at conception." That statement is only correct if you read "life" in an extremely narrow and limited way that defines "life" in a purely biological sense where slugs, snails and bacterium possess "life."

But I think the concept of "human life" (one concept) is more than just the simple biology. It means something richer. It involves the question of "what it means to be human" in a way that extends beyond DNA.

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I pay taxes for schools, I went to school. I pay them for trash collection, I generate household waste. I pay taxes for pensions, for policing. I pay taxes for the NHS and I have used it's health care. I pay taxes for social safety nets, I'm not as shortsighted to presume I could not be in an accident and need them in future, and have used unemployment benefits when I've been made redundant previously.

Everyone uses and benefits from the facilities taxes go to; it's just pooled, it's scale means it's efficient and affordable do even of the ones I don't use it's still a good deal.

There are no facilities that require of my body for life support. Throwing money at zygotes won't force them to breath.

Here we even require that a dead person must have opted in to use their person to save others when they're not alive anymore.

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Female circumcision is performed for a totally different reason than men. Male circumcision is for vanity reasons. They want your male parts to look attractive and modern.

Female circumcision is performed for the opposite reason. They want female parts to not only look unattractive but make sure women never receive any type of pleasure from sex. That’s why its regulated. It’s straight up misogyny in the most cruelest way to innocent girls.

I’m not sure how I feel about male circumcision. I don’t want my kid feeling awkward about his body or embarrassed because of my decision not to get him circumcised. There are grown men that are insecure about it. To the point where they undergo the painful surgery as an adult. Just my take on it. I guess if everyone stopped there would be nothing to be embarrassed about.

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First off, there are versions of FGM that are analogous to male circumcision. There's versions that's akin to a labiaplasty. All are rightfully illegal to do to a baby.

Second, the main reason it's (wrongfully) performed because it's considered hygienic, for religious reasons, and for male pleasure. If the goal is for it to look unattractive, why wouls it be done for male pleasure. You're correct that a lot of people do want to make women not feel pleasure from sex, and that it is misogynistic but it is not the only reason.

Third, I got circumcised when I was around 10. My dad, when he was 16. It's not that painful and your son can deal with it if he so chooses. Even then that decision should be up to him when he's mature enough to make it. Idk when that point is but it's certainly not as a baby.

You lose the right to complain about societal body standards when you perform a nonconsensual surgery on a baby boy so that he could meet them. Educate your daughters instead.

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*WAVES HANDS

People: Relax. Your antiabortion state is not going to pass legislation that will ban you from going to a proabortion state to get abortions. That's NOT POSSIBLE. That simply cannot be done.

No state can forcibly restrain its citizens from traveling to other states to do lawful activities in other states.

No state can even ask you why you're going to that other state.

No state can even ask you why you came to their state.

No state with an abortion ban can keep you from going to a state that allows abortions to get an abortion. In fact, you can go to a proabortion state to do anything legal that you want to do, including getting abortions. You can go there to smoke weed, watch movies, walk in a park, or fucking play goddamn tiddlywinks if you want.

You can leave your antiabortion state for any goddamn reason you want, and go to a proabortion state, and do anything legal in that proabortion state that you want to do.

Relax. The sky is NOT falling. you can still get your abortions if you want them.

Guess what, guys! If you don't like your anti abortion state, you can... MOVE!! Yes, that's right! you can buy a home or rent a place in your new proabortion paradise! Get a job there, rent a place, and go live where feticide is the order of the day! Don't just visit! Move there!

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You chose where to nut. That’s your choice. That’s where your involvement in pregnancy ends. Biology isn’t equal, so the sexes are unequally burdened. Take it up with evolution."

Again, you are purposely avoiding the point.

Pregnancy is a consequence of sex in which a woman also consents, thus she is also accountable for that choice. The part where a man's choices end is in whether or not she chooses to go through with the pregnancy, does she terminate it with Plan B, an abortion, or latter give up the kid for adoption. The man is not accountable for this long string of choices that she has and in which he has absolutely no say on the matter.

Thanks to modern technology, pregnancy is a choice, it is not an obligation. Nobody forces you to get pregnant and much less to stay pregnant and then be a mother against your will. Therefore it is only just and fair that men are afforded these same rights!

Just as nobody can force a woman to be a mother against her will NOBODY SHOULD FORCE A MAN TO BE A FATHER AGAINST HIS WILL!

This is not that difficult to understand. You women are being redundant hypocrites on this issue so don't be surprised at how quickly we men stop giving a fuck about your rights. Guess what happens when men decide to withdraw our consent and support to upholding your rights. Please take a wild guess. This is fucking bullshit that you want to have so many privileges for yourselves over men and when we ask for nothing more complicated than to not be fucking condemned to financial slavery and hardship over your actions you all turn around start with the shaming language and manipulation tactics and all this manner of hypocritical bullshit.

[–]PM_ME_RAREST_PEPES1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Consensual sex is consent to the possibility of pregnancy for both parties. Since men don’t get pregnant, men can’t abort a pregnancy. This isn’t about parenthood, it’s about bodily autonomy. The end.

But, really, why am I arguing with you over this?

You and I both know you don’t actually give a flying fuck about forced parenthood.

If you actually gave a shit about men being forced into fatherhood, you wouldn’t be stroking yourself off to the fact that women in half the country just lost their right to choose. You wouldn’t be sneering at how women are “getting a taste of equality” and mewling that your support for abortion is contingent on women’s support for your false equivalency hypothetical that no society will ever reasonably support.

You’d be fucking FURIOUS that millions of mostly poor men are about to be unwilling fathers. Because what the fuck do you think happens when a poor woman can’t leave the state to get an abortion?

But no. That’s not where your mind goes. You’re perfectly happy, gleeful even, to watch what is going to unfold in 22 states because “fair is fair.” You don’t give a fuck about men. Not one single solitary squirt of piss.

You just want to watch women suffer. It makes that lil nub of yours rock hard to watch women get hurt. The same way I’d bet my life savings that you like watching videos of women getting knocked out cold by a man for “equality” sake.

Your ilk are all so transparent. Nothing but a bunch of woman hating manbaby pissboys.

[–]just_a_place1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When your bodily autonomy interferes with - or comes at the expense of - my right to live my own life then it becomes my problem. You are clearly seeing the consequences of that mentality here.

This is not a mere biological autonomy issue when women's choice to have a baby (against the father's will) denies the financial autonomy of the father and places undue hardship on his life!

You think incarceration and homelessness and getting driven to suicide are not bodily autonomy issues for men?

You know what, fuck this! I am sick and fucking tired of explaining.

You and I both know you don’t actually give a flying fuck about forced parenthood.

Of course I do when I am the one who may be forced into it!

You’d be fucking FURIOUS that millions of mostly poor men are about to be unwilling fathers. Because what the fuck do you think happens when a poor woman can’t leave the state to get an abortion?

Are you for real? You are saying that I should be mad that a whole lot more women are going to be forcing men into wage slavery! Of course I'm fucking mad! Why do you think men are pushing for paper abortions harder than ever?

Women clearly screwed themselves by overplaying their hand and now you're all writhing, kicking, and screaming at every fucking direction bashing men harder than ever spitting in our fucking faces demanding that we bail you out! Fuck that! And then you want to act puzzled and confused as to why we are responding to your bullshit with anger instead of sympathy. Keep stabbing men in the back and demanding that we thank you for all the insults and see where else men stop supporting you in.

You just want to watch women suffer. It makes that lil nub of yours rockhard to watch women get hurt. The same way I’d bet my life savings thatyou like watching videos of women getting knocked out cold by a man for“equality” sake.

That cheap ass manipulation and shaming language does not work on men like me anymore. You cannot shame the shameless.

I want my fucking rights! Save that BS for the older boomer simps who still fall for that manipulative crap.

What are you gonna do next? Start calling me names, try to emasculate me? lol

Your ilk are all so transparent. Nothing but a bunch of woman hating manbaby pissboys.

Shit, this is more predictable than the weather. 🤨

[–]PM_ME_RAREST_PEPES1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m not addressing your hackneyed paper abortion bullshit any more. Your right to not abandon living children isn’t comparable to a medical procedure that doesn’t result in a child. Society has absolutely no interest in incentivizing men to have even less of a reproductive burden than they already do.

It’s never going to happen. Ever.

you are saying that I should be mad that a whole lot more women are going to be forcing men into slavery.

Lmao. See? That’s how I know your fixation is on women. The state is now forcing people into parenthood. When women literally can’t get abortions, you have an unwilling mother AND father.

If you even remotely gave a shit about this, you’d be furious at the state. Instead, we get this;

fuck that this is women’s fault

What are you even talking about? You think this happened because men can’t abandon their living children and so a bunch of perennially online dude bros said they’re not supporting them anymore? Do you actually believe that?

That it’s not the result of a well funded and organized religiously motivated concerted effort on the part of multiple organizations and churches working with political institutions over the last 70 years?

No. It’s because GamerGaters have decided they hate feminists more than they like abortion, apparently. You gonna blame the feminists and those shevil females when Clarence Thomas et all overturn Griswold and you can’t get Plan B in Alabama, too?

we aren’t bailing you out now

It’s hysterical that you act like you have done anything other than sit on your ass and complain about a problem you’re not gonna have.

But that aside, the hilarious irony is as I’ve pointed out; you’re literally harming men when you decide to make your support for abortion conditional on good behavior or whatever platitudes you think we owe you. That’s what’s so fucking backwards and transparent about your logic.

It’s gonna be hilarious when men suddenly realize how many times their partners have spared them knowledge of a burdensome pregnancy once all those demands for child support in states like Texas and Mississippi start pouring in.

I want my fucking rights

Guess what? Now you have even less.

But you sure really showed up those feminists.

[–]just_a_place1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The state is now forcing people into parenthood.

Yeah, sucks when it happens to you don't it?

When women literally can’t get abortions, you have an unwilling mother AND father.

That is better than a willing mother and an unwilling father. At least now we are both fucked! No more privilege for you.

No. It’s because GamerGaters have decided they hate feminists more than they like abortion.

I don't even know what that is. I had to google it and after reading the first sentence I knew it's some feminist bullshit. I don't bother with any bullshit that starts with the word misogynist in the first sentence written like a feminist hit piece against men and predictably peppered with anti-male language, shaming tactics, and all the usual feminist talking points against men.

And then you’re not helping men. That’s what’s so fucking backwards and transparent about your logic.

NOBODY helps men. We help ourselves. Every man for himself. Once in a while we band together for a common cause but ultimately we are all entirely on our own even when we are in groups. First lesson for all boys is "don't expect any help! You're not entitled to shit!"

Guess what? Now you have even less.

Men are in the same exact position. We cannot cry over rights that we have never had. You are the ones crying because now you know what it's like to get screwed over. Doesn't feel good does it? Can't say I sympathize after women kicked the fucking ladder out from under them after they gained their rights and have been doing every fucking thing possible to deny men these same rights.

Talk about the cop getting sent to prison with all the same inmates that she put there. lol

Look, the matter is very simple:

Women have the right (even now with abortion taken away) to not be forced by the state to be a mother against her will.

Men DO NOT HAVE THIS RIGHT! Hell, men don't even fucking have the right to be a father if the woman decides to be a bitch about it.

[–]PM_ME_RAREST_PEPES1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That was 400 words amounting to absolutely nothing except;

now you are both fucked

That’s all your position can be summed up as. You don’t care about men, you just want to make sure women are as screwed as you perceive yourself to be.

Nothing but a crab in a bucket.

men are in the exact same position

Before he could at least have a conversation with his partner about their options and come to a decision together. You know, like how it usually goes.

Now, the state decided for them both.

I bet you’re the type that advocates for harsher sentences for women instead of actual criminal justice reform.

doesn’t feel good does it?

I’m a lesbian in New York. I don’t know where you live, but chances are much higher that this decision will impact you more than it will ever impact me, chicken nugget.

[–]just_a_place1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Before he could at least have a conversation with his partner about
their options and come to a decision together. You know, like how it
usually goes.

Child support is NOT a conversation, it's a fucking threat. And you wanna act surprised that men don't respond well to threats.

And don't give us any of that bullshit about "coming to a decision together" when it is 100% YOUR decision and a man is forced under threat of imprisonment to PAY for your decision. This is what the entire issue is right here. You hypocrites want to pretend to be so fair and equal when you are being the most fucking sneaky, coercive, and manipulative, even as you already have 100% of the advantage!

Like I said: this ain't no negotiation, we were stupid enough to believe that once upon a time. To think that you all could be reasonable and fair. This is a fucking battleground now. No negotiation! As if we need to be asking for fucking permission for our rights and politely be asking women to not fucking keep screwing us over.

I bet you’re the type that advocates for harsher sentences for women instead of actual criminal justice reform.

No, In this one I have always been consistent. If a woman is a pedo (for example) she needs to have the same consequences as a man. She need to be locked away some 30-50 years and be put on a list and not allowed to ever find a job anywhere and not allowed to live anywhere in any major city or town. If a woman kills somebody the court should not be making up no fucking excuses for her to give her a slap on the wrist. If she kill someone, then she's going inside for decades or even get the death penalty depending on what she did, how, and why. No excuses!

To borrow a feminist talking point: "When you're all so damned privileged equality feels like oppression!"

I’m a lesbian in New York. I don’t know where you live, but chances are much higher that this decision will impact you more than it will ever impact me, chicken nugget.

The reason I am worked up is cause I sold my sperm (I literally sold it through a fertility clinic) to a woman I used to know years ago and feminists are very fond of threatening me that at any time I can get slapped with child support if she ever decides to do so! I have not talked to that women in years so I have no idea if she even had a baby or what. But just the fucking threat is reason enough to motivate me to say fuck it and support the right wing nutjobs and take away a few of women's rights just to make us even! Or at least until I am given the same rights.

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Vasiliy, it takes two to tango, you know that, right?

I never said otherwise.

And are you also aware that abortions are overwhelmingly performed in case of accidental pregnancies, right?

What I "know" don't know is of no importance in this case. Bear in mind, I was perfectly happy yesterday when Roe was still the law of the land.

As in, women don’t control whether they get pregnant or not but it does involve either BC failure or a guy nutting inside of her.

Precautions can be made ofc.

This is shit for everyone. And involves both men and women being “irresponsible” in your own words.

I concur. Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose anyway. But that doesn't mean you will be free from consequences.

If you really cared about babies

"WILL NOBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!"

then you should be advocating for mandatory vasectomy for all men at 18 since without viable semen pregnancies wouldn’t be possible until he first place.

Why would I advocate for that rather than mandatory tubal ligations? Or both. Or chastity belts. You yourself wrote that it "takes two to tango", right?

Bear in mind that I don't care if women have as many abortions as they want. I also don't care if other people have sex and get/don't get pregnant. That's up to them.

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How the fuck does it not seem entirely fair to you? This isn’t about “reproductive rights” upon conception, the reproduction has already occurred and has taken place. Literally the human is alive and if left to it’s own devices it will be born. If a woman gets the right to abort that baby under her own discretion EVEN IF the man wants to have the baby and proceed with the pregnancy; why can’t the man also do the same if he do chooses not to be financially viable for a baby he does not want? That’s literally equality in the highest form under that scenario. If women are allowed the right to abort babies, men should 100% be allowed to abort responsibility to this child he does not want. If your argument is “he should’ve kept it in his pants!” then the woman should’ve closed her legs. Sex comes with consequence. You cannot absolve consequences for one sex and not the other. That would be an example of female privilege.

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Allow me to explain then.

I think bodily autonomy arguments don’t work for consensual sex. You absolutely do not have sufficient justification to deprive another person (read: sentient organism) the right to use your body when it is entirely your fault they are dependent on you in the first place. Or perhaps we might more accurately say that if you do, you are directly responsible for their killing another person, which should be a punishable offense.

However, emphasis on “person” is intentional. My belief is the primary qualifying characteristic for being “someone” is the ability to have metal states and perceive your surroundings. A blastocyst is clearly not a “someone.” It’s a bundle of a few cells, definitely not thinking and feeling. However, somewhere along the way, this bundle of cells develops into an organism which starts to possess mental states. Rudimentary compared to a full grown adult, but mental states nonetheless.

Given that (in my opinion) the bodily autonomy argument breaks down, it makes sense to draw the line at the point in the developmental process that it’s most reasonable that some consciousness has developed. This definitely isn’t at conception, but it’s also definitely before the 3rd trimester.

Ergo, trimester framework.

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AFAIK you're not going to jail for someone dying from an accident. You'd have to do something like drunk driving.

Plenty of people used protection that failed, are underage, were raped, are married with existing children, have complications, etc.

Even just not being mentally or physically in a good place to undergo a pregnancy or simply not wanting to are sufficient IMO because it is a huge imposition. A fetus draws enormous resources, permanently alters the brain and the body, and can kill you. No one should be essentially enslaving women for the purposes of having them act as unwilling life support.

Moreover if you truly believe what you're saying, then men should be held responsible too. Meaning if they cause an unwanted pregnancy, then they should be forced to undergo physical risk and change against their will (Blood/bone marrow/organ donation and lifelong compensation to the person they impregnated. Jail if they do not comply.)

[–]E-2-butene1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Manslaughter typically involves some degree of negligence that caused you to be at fault for the death, but the standard for that level of fault is typically quite low. Something as little as taking your eyes off the road or speeding a bit.

As it happens, this closely mirrors basically all instances of pregnancy. Something like misusing birth control or failing to take plan B after breaking a condom could easily constitute a level of negligence. In fact, I’d argue that it’s reasonable to say that not using all forms of contraception available is enough to constitute risk taking. Only taking the pill and forgoing condoms, for instance, would be like saying that you were only speeding but not weaving through traffic and therefore clearly you’re innocent. Just because you did one thing right doesn’t mean you didn’t fuck up.

However, as I’m arguing for a trimester framework, we could also simply argue that one is being negligent by failing to get an abortion within the appropriate timespan. A woman has plenty of time to get an abortion without killing a “person.” So the fact she fail to is negligence in and of itself.

I totally agree that men should be responsible, though I disagree with your specific point about organs. Unless it’s a situation where the man is responsible for the actual illness in the child, it’s unclear why he (or the mother, for that matter) have an obligation to donate organs. However, supporting the woman and the child are absolutely something I think he has an obligation to do. Child support is an absolute necessity and imo should also compensate the woman for the time she takes to raise the child, not just the direct costs.

Women getting stuck being the only ones who have to bear children is an unfair biological reality, but there unfortunately isn’t much we can do about it. Both men and women have their disadvantages, one of men’s being not having the option to get an abortion during the timeframe when it would be permissible. I’m not saying those two things counterbalance each other equally, but there simply isn’t much we can do about it and have to play the shit hands we were dealt.

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Humans have sex. There's no going around it. No matter what happens, humans will have sex. There's nothing you can ever do to change that. Banning abortion helps absolutely nobody. It only creates:

Children that will grow up without enough food on the plate

Children that will grow up in a life of abuse and struggle

Children that will be endlessly passed around foster homes

Babies that will live only for a very short amount of time due to birth defects

Teenage mothers whose lives will be ruined

Rape victims who must become unwilling mothers

Couples unable to deal with the financial burden of carrying a child

Deadly home-experiment abortions that end in disaster

Deadly back alley abortions

Child pregnancy

Whatever happens, unwanted babies will be born. And that is not a life you want to bring into this world.

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[–]Electrical-Elk-616714 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

False.

Over 90% of all abortions take place before 13 weeks’ gestation. There is a consensus that pain is not possible before development of the cortex, and before the periphery is connected to the cortex through the spinal cord and thalamus. Those developments are broadly not apparent before 24 weeks’ gestation and so many medical bodies and press reports state that pain is not possible before 24 weeks’ gestation, which is the point at which most abortions cease to be legal in most parts of the world.

Rigorous scientific studies have found that the connections necessary to transmit signals from peripheral sensory nerves to the brain, as well as the brain structures necessary to process those signals, do not develop until at least 24 weeks of gestation.i Because it lacks these connections and structures, the fetus does not even have the physiological capacity to perceive pain until at least 24 weeks of gestation.

The bulk of the scientific literature on the subject, however, finds that the brain connections needed to feel pain are not in place until at least 24 weeks, which is also the earliest possible time a fetus becomes viable outside the womb.

source: https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3

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Why does the woman decide if a man will be a father subjected to 18+ years of child support?

Nice pivot.

Are men on this sub capable of discussing bodily autonomy without bring up child support?

It took two to bring that child into the world it should take two to agree to remove it in a humane and timely manner.

It took two to conceive a pregnancy. Not carry that pregnancy to term. He will never have to experience pregnancy, labor, and birth.

Also rape/sa removes the abusers choice in this occasion.

If you're allowing exceptions in instances of rape, you don't really give a shit about fetuses/embryos. You just want women who've chosen to have sex to 'pay' for it.

Also, logistically speaking, how would that even work?

How would it be determined that she was raped during the window in which abortion is permissible? Are you aware how long it can take for a court to determine a rape occurred, and to convict the attacker?

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Not really in this case we are talking about the fact the the woman is pregnant with a mans child.

Exactly, she's pregnant. Not him. She will have to endure pregnancy, labor and birth. Not him.

Given the fact that you're willing to make exceptions in instances of rape goes to show you don't really care about the supposed life of the embryo or fetus, you just think men should have a say in what women do with their bodies. Even though pregnancy, labor and birth will never be something he has to endure.

A dimple dna test can tell you if he’s the father or not, then the question is if the sec act was consensual.

Again, how would that be determined in a timely manner?

Even if we went with your "she can have an abortion anyway, but if later on the courts find a lack of evidence regarding the occurrence of a rape" method, that still wouldn't work. Rape is very hard to prove.

Most rapes it’s hard to even come to a point to admit that a sec act happened between two people in this case it’s almost a given

Huh?

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[–]AtomicMGTOW-4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

On it's surface and at first glance abortion seemed reasonable to me. I always had the 'women suffering' idea, paramount in my head. But I'm done with that now. I have had to overcome my natural instincts to protect women. Women have preyed on that for far too long. But the main reason I'm glad Roe v Wade is gone is because of the hypocrisy of it's proponents. I'll explain it pretty fucking briefly...

There were a total of 45,222 firearm deaths in the US in 2020. source
The US saw 930,160 abortions in 2020, reversing a 30-year decline. source

I believe that the vast majority of RvW/ProChoice folks are the same people that would abolish the 2nd amendment in a milisecond if they could. But that's a really tough sell. So instead they want stricter and stricter gun control. They want people to have to explain why they want a gun. They want to make it as close to impossible to get a gun. But yet they want easy access to anonymous abortions without having to explain a thing.

Women have access to DOZENS of forms or safe and reliable birth control. There is no reason there should be anywhere near a million abortions every year. It's gonna suck for the ACTUAL 'hard cases' (r@pe) but "it's for the greater good." It has ALWAYS been the case that reckless and irresponsible people RUIN shit for everyone else. Abortion is no exception.

How a person can be pro-choice and anti-gun without crippling cognitive dissonance is beyond me. They are 2 separate issues but when you compare them you can clearly see that one is WAYYYYY worse and far more out of control than the other. I did the math, it's 20.5 times worse.

The gun control people are always "won't someone please think of the children" but chalking up 20.5 times the death toll of guns and literally ALL the victims are children.

But women never really did like stats, especially when they run contrary to their emotional and biological imperatives which is "we want full and unilateral control over reproduction" which also means "I get one teaspoon from a man and now I can discard him." but yet women complain of being objectified. smh

[–]flapperfemmefatale7 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AtomicMGTOW2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

CONSEQUENCES are not punishment. You make the bed, sleep in it. Actions and in-actions (not taking steps to protect against pregnancy/STI's) have consequences. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or "can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". I'm fucking tired of "It was JUST an OOPSIE, SAVE ME?! PLEASE, just this ONCE (sure sure, once), I won't do it again! Don't make me suffer, your punishing me!" bullshit.

So, if a guy has a gun in his night table and his kid picks it up and blows his head off, should we be like "well, it wasn't dads fault, we can't PUNISH him"??? THINK god dammit. THINK.

Jesus, even if your car gets stolen they're still gonna ask if the doors were locked. But women HATE that shit when people ask them. But for men... oh hellz no... all bets are off. We carry the responsibility for every fucking breath we take. "I told you not to fuck that crazy bitch" but you can't say the same when Becky is plowing Tyrone. She'll rip your eyes out. Then, when she's pregnant... It was JUST an OOPSIE, SAVE ME?!

Millions of single moms are that miracle "1%" that the pill just didn't work for. Yeah, uhuh... Let's look at the biggest bullshit story of all time....

Mary didnu nuffin... she was a virgin. Miracle birth they say.

Yeah, what's more likely, that the entire natural order was suspended or a jewish minx would tell a lie?

Same thing happens today. These women want to be saved because of their little miracle. And we fucking do it. It's so embarrassing that it's been going on for thousands of years. But yeah... MEN are the ones that need to 'evolve'. HA. If men stopped saving women, holy shit. You'd all die.

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And there's the 'HATE'. I'm so shocked.

This is you.

Listen, your mom may have been taking the pill but maybe was doing something that counteracts it. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE "I WAS TAKING THE PILL" women.

50% of patients do not take their medications as prescribed. source

ALSO, it's still actually quite difficult to get pregnant for perfectly healthy people TRYING to have a baby. That's why the rhythm method is still 76% effective at preventing pregnancy. source

I can't help but wonder if RvWade would have been overturned if women stopped making excuses and lying? And ya know, I'm really sorry if you truly are a responsible one - the bad apples ruined it for you. That's ALWAYS how it goes. That's why I can't have a recreational fire in my backyard. That's why truckers have to have special training schools now. The bad/stupid people always ruin it for the good/responsible people. Don't get all 'mysogynist' on me... Try telling other women to smarten the fuck up.

Why don't women do that? Well, because the other women react just like you did. Screaming and shaming and exile from the group for 'wrong think'. ANYTHING to avoid accountability. ANYTHING.

[–]flapperfemmefatale2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AtomicMGTOW2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think a woman who aborts a pregnancy is far smarter than a woman who has a kid she cannot take care of. Agreed. But it's happening way too much.

The punishment argument. Yeesh, I've heard this twice now. Consequences are not necessarily a punishment. And an uncomfortable consequence doesn't make it punishment even if it 'feels' like it. And it certainly isn't a punishment because punishment is something someone imposes on you, not something you did yourself ffs.

If you get drunk and drive and hit a pole but don't get busted, you suffer the consequences - your busted up car. But if you get arrested and found guilty, then there will be a punishment that will be put upon me.

If you fuck without (or even with) contraception, you are taking a risk. Let me say that again YOU are taking a risk. You are your own agent making your own choices.

Ya know what seems more like misogyny to me? Women trying to protect other women from the consequences of their own choices. You're basically saying "she's stupid and made a stupid mistake - almost like she had no choice in the matter - and then trying to 'save' her." You're basically saying that women should never have consequences for bad choices because they don't know what they're doing. And that's funny because that's how it USED to be.

The reason MARRIED women couldn't have a credit card of bank account was because her husband was responsible for her debts. It's called coverture. It's like how if your kid breaks a window, you, the parent, must pay to fix it. But women didn't like that. They wanted their own credit cards and bank accounts. And Side Note: Look at how women carry the most debt - SHOCKER.

So, ok, have your own credit cards and bank accounts and debt. And now what do we have? "HELP US, we want student loan forgiveness!" and then set about blaming colleges and universities and patriarchy for holding 2/3 of the student debt after taking some gender studies bullshit and not being able to get a job.

It's always "Help me, but it wasn't my fault!" ALWAYS.

Listen, the system was abused. It went way too far. And it's not like the supreme court really ruled 'against abortion'. They just decided that it's not federal jurisdiction. There are a lot of things that don't belong under federal jurisdiction for various reasons. The states provide the funding (the responsibility), and because of that, they should have control over how/if they spend the money.

Abortion isn't abolished. Hey, if it were my state, and a woman reported a rape, and a little while later found out she was pregnant - COME RIGHT IN! If some young girl is pregnant and it was incest - COME RIGHT IN! Also, if we find out later you lied, there's gonna be a PUNISHMENT consequence just like pulling the fire alarm.

But that's not what's happening. There are far too many impulsive, almost feral, women fucking stray dogs in heat and then 'coming out' of their 'fever' going "Oh FUCK.... I fell over with my legs in the air, AGAIN" like fainting goats and then screaming that it's not their fault it's - MEN, yeah! MEN DID THIS TO ME!

And ya know what, it's 'almost' true. Ya see, I really wish women would realize that when they're horny they're susceptible. If they encounter a tall bad ass chad/Tyrone and feeling 'weak in the knees', that's pretty much the same thing as the fainting goats. Her hormones are weakening her resolve, her body wants a baby, his baby. We call this the 'tinglz'. She knows she's the penetrated partner and mainly her job is to 'loser herself in the moment and hold still' while she gets mounted. That's across pretty much all mammals.

Women believing they are in full control at all times is what's causing the problem. Some argue that Free Will doesn't exist, but I'll say that free will, if it exists, is very diminished when in this state. You might as well be drunk. Pretty much the same effect. If women would just admit this shit to themselves maybe they could do something about it. But if you want to go on believing you're strong, independent, intelligent, your own agent, ok then... we'll see. And we saw.

If the cow is in heat and the farmer doesn't want to breed her he separates her from the bulls until she's done. Then they can interact again and she won't let the bull too close. But when she's in heat, she'll just stand there, almost frozen, dripping from the vag and the bull keeps getting closer and closer and she's not running away so he gets a little closer. Once he's on, she just stands still till he's done.

I know, we don't like to admit these animal things about ourselves but hey, it's true if you're honest. Daddy used to be the one to run the bulls off. Now daddy isn't allowed. And since the 70's with birth control and the welfare system (mother's allowance) women have thrown daddy out and figured they 'got this'. And it's been a fucking disaster. NO ONE is EVER going to care for (protect) or work as hard (provide) for a woman and the children as a man. NO ONE.

Women like the provision part, but they don't want 'protection' because that give a man authority. Whomever is doing the protecting and providing has a natural authority. Just like mom is the authority over the kids when there's no daddy around. But when daddy is there, he must have authority, otherwise he's a slave. If you have all the responsibility but no authority, you are a slave. Women want all the authority and no responsibility. That's a tyranny. And you can see what happened. over 900k abortions a year. Where is the fucking shame? Oh right, not allowed to shame women, ever, over anything. But apparently ALL men are supposed to carry the shame of some bad men.

I swear, if you didn't have double standards you wouldn't have any at all.

We see you. Most women are breeders/cows. They just wanna live comfortably and eat and breed, just like a cow. You should watch bovine in real life. It's fucking wild how closely we act. The bulls are relegated to the perimeter while the cows stand in the middle, chewing, while the calves run around. If a bull gets too close (and the cow isn't in heat) she gets agitated and if the bull gets even closer she'll move/run and then usually a farmer will round up the bulls or cows to separate them. The bulls are providing protection. Anything approaching their perimeter will be chased off. And should a calf stray too far from the cow/group, it will be scared of the bull and run back. The cows stand there doing nothing but eating, constantly. The bulls are usually sharpening their horns on a tree watching closely for signs that he might be able to mount a receptive female. It's fucking wild. And I stand there going "omg, that's us at our cores"

The only difference now is that the state provides for and protects the women and the children - so yeah "I don't need no man"... she's right, she doesn't need just a single man. She has ALL the men, forced (punished even) by the courts and by paying taxes to feed women and children that aren't mine. Women that felt a man was good enough to give him the greatest reward she can possibly give a man, but he's not good enough to keep around. Imagine that. Abrahamic religions are right about women.

Eve goes and gets fruit from a tree that daddy said not to so that made her wanna do it even more. And even though she had almost everything, she wasn't satisfied. But, she doesn't want to take responsibility for it so she - using her feminine guile - tricks Adam into eating it and ruins everything. And of course, daddy knows Adam was tricked but even he (and everyone else) has to suffer the consequences of Eve's actions. NOTHING NEW HERE.

[–]flapperfemmefatale0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AtomicMGTOW2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

More bullshit. No one is taking women away and giving them abortions. Do we just let people sign up to get a hand cut off? Well, I guess we should if your autonomy bullshit stands up.

Also interesting how it's "our baby" when women want support but it's not just 'her baby' when she's calling all the shots, it's "her body".

And clearly, with 930K abortions, there are plenty of women that can't handle the responsibility of autonomy enough to manage her contraception.

And back to my original comparison, if there was 930K deaths by firearms, yeah, there'd be a big fucking problem. I can hear it now "There are nearly one million deaths my firearms every year. 97% are preventable. There are clearly irresponsible gun owners." Yeah, and now imagine if it was 930K CHILDREN killed by irresponsible gun owners. Yeah, that 2nd amendment would be gone.

So, once again, take care of your shit. And if you can't handle it, don't have sex.

I swear, there should be a fucking licencing process to have sex and/or a child. IQ less than 90? Denied. Broke ass lazy highschool drop out, but it's 'not my fault'? Denied. Can barely afford to eat? Denied. Highly neurotic (anxiety)? Denied. Terrible impulse control? Denied. BPD/NPD/HPD? Denied. Can't remember to take a pill every morning? Denied.

That just about covers it. That would eliminate 80% of women.

[–]flapperfemmefatale0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AtomicMGTOW2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

ZEFs

What's that?

Also, this decision didn't 'STRIP' women of the ability to choose "AT ALL".

It simply returned the jurisdiction to the states. Which kinda makes sense on such a contentious debate. Returning it to the states let's their culture make the decisions. Each state kinda seems to have it's own vibe. I mean, sure, if you are ProChoice and were born in one of the 'contraception deserts', that's gonna suck but apparently the people there fall more on the ProLife side of things. They clearly don't live by the rules of the NY/California people and they shouldn't have to or vice versa.

It's a tough debate. And as I said earlier, I've been ProChoice pretty much my whole life. But about 10 years ago my mindset began to shift to more conservative views. And then when i saw the numbers, holy shit. Numbers fucking matter to me. Everything can't just be about 'feelings'. And then, when I see the same ProChoice people coming for ProGun people - using, of all the excuses, "think of the children" I was like "these people are fucked, so fuck them."

These are the same people giving hormone blockers to confused 10 year olds. The same people that have gay pride parades walking around with their junk out. Like, I don't GAF who/how you fuck, but stop waving your shit in kids faces. I also don't want the bible in schools. Or feminism. And when are we going to teach kids that men and women are not 'blank slate equals (as in exactly the same except plumbing)? Nope, women don't want THAT.

When are we going to have default 50/50 custody laws? When are we going to abolish spousal support (or make it "term" only)? Like fuck off you want a mans resources for life but don't want that man in your life, even though you had kids with him in the first place? When is the US going to either END Selective Service or include women?

Fuck all this gynocentric bullshit supporting the female imperative. FI don't wanna support them. They said they wanna do it on their own - well fucking DO it already.

Women are or have become the most entitled, hypocritical, hedonistic, mercenaries all under the guise of "poor me!" (damsel) and it's got to end.

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Only one can give birth, which can ruin or end their life? Yeah, how much choice does a man have in this?

Look, IF... and ONLY IF, men have an EQUAL say in what happens after conception - then I'd get on board with your idea. But that's not reality. Once she gets pregnant he looses ALL control and authority.

Plan B is a terrible option for BC. There are plenty of other option BEFORE the sex. And if $30-$50 is too expensive then I'd say "get a fucking job" before you start fucking. Like CMON. I'm not buying the 'poor woman is suffering' bullshit one second longer.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES. It's amazing how many options a woman has in birth control and in life but yet SOMEHOW they're always still the victim. FUCK THIS. Grow up. Learn to suck a dick or take it in the ass. No? Ok, birth control it is.

Here, for anyone in NY, you can get your shit free. https://www.stdtestingnyc.info/how-to-get-free-birth-control-in-new-york/

Not from NY? Ok, try this: google "Free Birth control {name of your state}"

Here's another option: https://opa-fpclinicdb.hhs.gov/

There, no more excuses. Bunch o' Babies.

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Weird, it was my granny that diddled both my brothers whilst my single mother looked the other way. She threw away my dad and had to submit to her mother to survive. We were estranged from my dad for decades but he pretty much knew what she was doing. She HATED men and wanted to take away their masculinity and it worked. They were both dead before 40. But that's just an anecdote and a very rare occurrence right? It's "mostly" men... right? Yeah, tell that to my brothers. Fact is, women don't care about men's suffering. Only their own. Always the victim or the hero, never the villain.

Woman kills her children? "Don't put her in jail, she's suffering the greatest loss a mother can ever experience" - THAT FUCKING HAPPENED. Women kill their children more than men. Maybe they get a prozy agent to do it (as per female nature) but they're still behind the scenes trying to keep their plausible deniability.

Well 100% of abortions are done by women. So, how about that? And yeah, 97+% are "no reason" or "would impact lifestyle". They don't care about the 'hard cases'. They've ruined it for the real victims out there. And here you are calling men pedos. Jesus Christ it never ends. You just keep proving my point.

-rolls eyes- But alas, you're deflecting to avoid accountability again. Just keep flying off topic. I've really got that rationalization hamster going don't I?

Ya know what the side effects of not taking birth control are. So now you have to do a cost/benefit/risk analysis. I know women SUCK at that but you gotta try. You won't burn out your brain. And there are other options besides hormonal BC. WHY the FUCK do I have to explain this? If you are old enough to be fucking you already know this shit and you're being disingenuous, another deflection technique. Keeps your opponent bogged down in the weeds with the responsibility of educating and proving it to you while you just keep throwing obstacles for them to overcome. You're not really trying to learn/accept anything.

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At the end of the day, why do you feel like your opinion on what another person should do with their body even matters at all?

It matters just as much as anyone else here.

in the event that the thing you’re deciding on will literally change your body and your entire life moving forward?

I dont believe that is true. I believe it effects at minimum 2 lives.

Especially when you don’t experience the reality of being pregnant at all.

I dont need to. Also, way to assume my gender 😝

You’re essentially giving more rights to something that can’t even formulate thoughts before you are to adult woman in that scenario.

No, its giving them one right. The right not to be killed.

I always find it shocking that fully a cognisant adult that has even a thimble full of empathy can’t understand why abortion should be at least an option for people.

And I feel the same about people who believe in post 1st trimester abortions.

[–]Turbulent-Piglet-4624 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How would you feel if, for example, it was decided by a panel of women to give your son vasectomy at 18 - would you feel that your son should have the right to choose whether he wants to reproduce or not?

Would you feel those womens opinions mattered much as yours, or your sons in that scenario?

That’s true - even more reason to give that choice. If a mother is not in a position to care for the child (and let’s say for argument sake, she was raped, so couldn’t even make the decision to not have sex) should that baby be doomed to a shitty existence because you decided it deserved to live?

If you’re anti abortion - do you believe in developing social welfare more in your country? Or does your care for this person drop off once they’re born?

Your gender is pretty clear man hahaha

I can believe that

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By virtue of being rules for "betas", nothing was broken for "alphas". They do not abide by the same rules.

The difference is the way the rules are declared does not match the way they are applied.

Women don't say "I'm not into casual sex unless the guy is exceptionally hot" they just say "I'm not into casual sex".

They don't say "alphas get sex on the first date and betas have to wait and buy me dinner first" they just say "I'm not the kind of girl to have sex on the first date"

They aren't saying to "protest against the abortion ban by not having sex with betas but continuing to fuck chads" they're saying "protest the abortion ban by not having sex"

So if women want to clear up confusion/frustration on this matter they should be more open about it and make their words match how the rules are applied. They should admit the men that aren't up to their casual sex standards are worthless.

Whats not clicking? Be sure to only answer me if and only if you are prepared to tell me you treat ugly women the way your do angel faced Stacy

Again, women aren't as forthcoming about it and try to push the narrative that women are less shallow than men or that attractiveness standards for women are harder to meet. Those lies contribute to it not clicking.

And arguably I do treat them the same as I don't both asking either of them out. I also don't view women I'm not attracted to as worthless.

[–]Teflon081911 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sarkington1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Roe v. Wade Mega-Thread

Comments

MAGA

FUCKING LIMITLESS

47% of women are pro-life

MAGA

MAGA

OPT OUTS, OR BAN ABORTION

MAGA

MAGA

MAGA

🫃

OPT OUTS, OR BAN ABORTION

OPT OUTS, OR BAN ABORTION

MAGA

In other words — incels of the world, y’all still gonna be incels.

MAGA

Title	Roe v. Wade Mega-Thread
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	122
Comments	6008
Date	June 24, 2022 4:00 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/vjrqdo/roe_v_wade_megathread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/roe-v-wade-mega-thread.1120193 https://theredarchive.com/post/1120193